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View Full Version : Yet another Elven Subrace! [PEACH]



Neftren
2008-01-30, 06:11 PM
Not posting any fluff about this AT ALL. It's the most heavily guarded secret in my Campaign Setting.

+2 Wisdom, +2 Dexterity, -4 Charisma
To Tread a Thin Line: Having been on both sides of light and darkness, these smart and swift individuals have learned to enter the unreal. Once per day as a standard action, these individuals may enter and traverse the Ethereal Plane for up to 10 minutes. This effect may be terminated prematurely with the use of a standard action. This is a Supernatural Ability.
Immune to Sleep Effects, but are not granted a bonus to their saving throw.
These individuals may gain one Knowledge skill as a class skill permanently, even if it is not normally on their class skill list.
+2 Bonus to all Hide and Move Silently Checks.
Automatic Languages: Common, Elven. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Sylvan, Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal
Favored Class: Templar. Chosen from birth, these powerful juggernauts serve the temple as guardians and protectors. It is the highest honor for a family or person is to be selected to become a Templar.*

Moderately broken methinks. Will probably add an LA or remove some stuff.

ErrantX
2008-01-30, 06:25 PM
Yeah, this is definitely a +2 LA if not +3. The stat bonuses alone merit the +2.

-X

SurlySeraph
2008-01-30, 06:51 PM
@^: ... but they have a net -2 to stats. Getting to choose which knowledge skills their bonuses apply to is strong, but not ridiculously so. They get a total of +10 to skills, but that's not as powerful as, say, a total of +10 to saves and attack rolls. Even being able to go ethereal isn't that ridiculous, because they can only do it once and can't break it up into separate uses.

+1 LA would be fine.

Shades of Gray
2008-01-30, 08:03 PM
-6 cha? What did they do that was THAT horrible to make no one like them? IS that the reason for the "To Tread a Thin Line" rule is for?

Also what does the [PEACH] mean on many homebrew posts.

Ascension
2008-01-30, 08:08 PM
Also what does the [PEACH] mean on many homebrew posts.

It's listed in the common acronyms thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18512) over in Gaming (d20 and General RPG). Please Examine and Comment Honestly.

And in the name of PEACH, I say that I personally find the idea of uncharismatic elves to be quite charming. Elves get too much good publicity as it is.

...I'd hate to see someone try to play one of these as a bard, sorcerer, or the like, though... :smalleek:

Neftren
2008-01-30, 08:27 PM
-6 cha? What did they do that was THAT horrible to make no one like them? IS that the reason for the "To Tread a Thin Line" rule is for?

Also what does the [PEACH] mean on many homebrew posts.

The reason is behind the fluff. All I will say is that they're an extremely reclusive race living on an island that has now been turned into a fortress. I'd show you the map, but it's on paper currently.

They basically study other races and have been cataloguing the Igmarins, Tilwari and Pirqag for the past 700 years. Which explains the knowledge stuff.

Neek
2008-01-30, 08:35 PM
[PEACH] means [Please Examine And Comment Honestly]. You're not wanting a "Oh, that's nice," but rather accepting good, healthy criticism. Now, my notes.

+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Constitution, -2 Strength, -6 Charisma

The problem with this is the spread: +2 Dex means +1 attack bonus to ranged weapons across the board, plus an additional point of AC. The -2 Strength penalty is a -1 attack penalty and -1 penalty; Strength, when increased or decreased, is worth twice the modifier. You drop it by two, it's worth -4 to other stats. +2 Intelligence gives an extra skill point each level, and +2 Con gives an extra hp per level. The only major offset is Charisma, which has minimal game impact except for the Personality characters (Bard, Sorcerers, Paladins).

Overall, the race has a -4 net adjustment. The only stat that doesn't get modified is Wisdom. This is a problem. A huge problem. Very few races get more than one stat adjusted. I'd suggest a revision, a reduction of numbers (Strength, Dex, and Int alone would be sufficient).

To Tread a Thin Line: Having been on both sides of light and darkness, these smart and swift individuals have learned to enter the unreal. Once per day as a swift action, these individuals may enter the Ethereal Plane for up to 10 minutes.

This is a pretty powerful ability. This allows, if as an enemy, to leave combat, especially at lower levels. The limit of once per day is good, but I'd make the action standard or move-equivalent.

Mountaineer: These individuals have a base land speed of 40 feet, and suffer no penalties when moving through steep, rugged or mountainous terrain.

So in addition to being able to skip town, they run fast. Combine with Monk or Scout, and they're lightning fast.

Immune to Sleep Effects, but are not granted a bonus to their saving throw.

Not that bad.

+2 Bonus to three knowledge skills of their choice.

So a net +3 bonus to Knowledge checks (with the bonus to Int)?

+2 Bonus to all Hide and Move Silently Checks.

Again, a net 3?

This is broken, so much in fact that Humpty Dumpty might be just fixed with a Mending spell. Reduce the number of ability modifiers to 3; keep "Tread a thin line" ability, it's really nice flavor; keep the extra speed; keep the Sleep immunity; reduce the knowledge skill bonus to one or two; keep the racial bonuses to Hide and Move Silently.

Neftren
2008-01-30, 09:16 PM
[PEACH] means [Please Examine And Comment Honestly]. You're not wanting a "Oh, that's nice," but rather accepting good, healthy criticism. Now, my notes.

+2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Constitution, -2 Strength, -6 Charisma

The problem with this is the spread: +2 Dex means +1 attack bonus to ranged weapons across the board, plus an additional point of AC. The -2 Strength penalty is a -1 attack penalty and -1 penalty; Strength, when increased or decreased, is worth twice the modifier. You drop it by two, it's worth -4 to other stats. +2 Intelligence gives an extra skill point each level, and +2 Con gives an extra hp per level. The only major offset is Charisma, which has minimal game impact except for the Personality characters (Bard, Sorcerers, Paladins).

Overall, the race has a -4 net adjustment. The only stat that doesn't get modified is Wisdom. This is a problem. A huge problem. Very few races get more than one stat adjusted. I'd suggest a revision, a reduction of numbers (Strength, Dex, and Int alone would be sufficient).

To Tread a Thin Line: Having been on both sides of light and darkness, these smart and swift individuals have learned to enter the unreal. Once per day as a swift action, these individuals may enter the Ethereal Plane for up to 10 minutes.

This is a pretty powerful ability. This allows, if as an enemy, to leave combat, especially at lower levels. The limit of once per day is good, but I'd make the action standard or move-equivalent.

Mountaineer: These individuals have a base land speed of 40 feet, and suffer no penalties when moving through steep, rugged or mountainous terrain.

So in addition to being able to skip town, they run fast. Combine with Monk or Scout, and they're lightning fast.

Immune to Sleep Effects, but are not granted a bonus to their saving throw.

Not that bad.

+2 Bonus to three knowledge skills of their choice.

So a net +3 bonus to Knowledge checks (with the bonus to Int)?

+2 Bonus to all Hide and Move Silently Checks.

Again, a net 3?

This is broken, so much in fact that Humpty Dumpty might be just fixed with a Mending spell. Reduce the number of ability modifiers to 3; keep "Tread a thin line" ability, it's really nice flavor; keep the extra speed; keep the Sleep immunity; reduce the knowledge skill bonus to one or two; keep the racial bonuses to Hide and Move Silently.

Maybe if I just made it so that the player gets Knowledge: The Planes as a class skill even if it's not on his list... Idk. Mostly I'm concerned with the statspread, since I can't seem to figure out how it'd work. But thanks. As for Sleep Immunity, that comes standard with all elves.

Neftren
2008-02-01, 08:29 AM
Okay, I made some edits and revisions... hopefully to bring it down into the LA 0 Range. The fluff behind them has changed slightly... but whatever.

Baron Corm
2008-02-01, 08:46 AM
Looks good and LA +0, except for the To Tread a Thin Line ability. You're giving them an ability somewhere in between ethereal jaunt and etherealness, so it's sort of like an 8th level spell. I would change it to being able to enter the Ethereal Plane for 1 move action, once/day. Hard to know if the flavor justifies that though. It's still a pretty good ability, and I can see this race being useful, but not overpowered, for a number of classes.

Neftren
2008-02-01, 08:48 AM
Looks good and LA +0, except for the To Tread a Thin Line ability. You're giving them an ability somewhere in between ethereal jaunt and etherealness, so it's sort of like an 8th level spell. I would change it to being able to enter the Ethereal Plane for 1 move action, once/day. Hard to know if the flavor justifies that though. It's still a pretty good ability, and I can see this race being useful, but not overpowered, for a number of classes.

Read carefully. For a standard action, they can enter the Ethereal Plane for up to ten minutes once per day.

Baron Corm
2008-02-01, 08:54 AM
Ethereal jaunt, a 7th level spell, allows you to enter the ethereal plane for 1 round/level, likely a max of 2 minutes. Spell-like abilities typically don't go nearly that high. And you never specified if it was spell-like or supernatural, so it might be even better.

Neftren
2008-02-01, 09:11 AM
Ethereal jaunt, a 7th level spell, allows you to enter the ethereal plane for 1 round/level, likely a max of 2 minutes. Spell-like abilities typically don't go nearly that high. And you never specified if it was spell-like or supernatural, so it might be even better.

It's Supernatural... I better go add that in. But what you're suggesting is to lower the duration? It's not that useful in combat, since you're going to have to burn a standard action to do it... It had originally been a swift action, but that was lengthened.

Jaerc
2008-02-01, 09:39 AM
To Tread The Thing Line:
It's really not a problem. Pretty much the equivalent of a more enemy-accessible rope trick. Seriously, it's flavorful but not very useful. However it does have one issue, as written they get there, but not back. Clarify that 10 minutes (or sooner with the use of another standard action), they return to the Material Plane in the same position and placement as they left.

You should note that the Knowledge skill always remains a class skill.

The limited flavour you've given out doesn't suggest the Hide & MS bonus; is it justified?

Neftren
2008-02-01, 10:29 AM
To Tread The Thing Line:
It's really not a problem. Pretty much the equivalent of a more enemy-accessible rope trick. Seriously, it's flavorful but not very useful. However it does have one issue, as written they get there, but not back. Clarify that 10 minutes (or sooner with the use of another standard action), they return to the Material Plane in the same position and placement as they left.

You should note that the Knowledge skill always remains a class skill.

The limited flavour you've given out doesn't suggest the Hide & MS bonus; is it justified?

Yeah, I need to add in that you may terminate the effect at any time.

Good idea.

These guys are slightly similar to Protoss from Starcraft, and the Templar class is slightly based towards the Dark Templar. I didn't actually get the name or the ideas from Starcraft, but that's just how it turned out. Since DTs are super-sneaky, invisible, dual wielding masters of doom, well you get the idea.

Neftren
2008-02-01, 10:31 AM
To Tread The Thing Line:
It's really not a problem. Pretty much the equivalent of a more enemy-accessible rope trick. Seriously, it's flavorful but not very useful. However it does have one issue, as written they get there, but not back. Clarify that 10 minutes (or sooner with the use of another standard action), they return to the Material Plane in the same position and placement as they left.

You should note that the Knowledge skill always remains a class skill.

The limited flavour you've given out doesn't suggest the Hide & MS bonus; is it justified?

Yeah, I need to add in that you may terminate the effect at any time.

Good idea.

These guys are slightly similar to Protoss from Starcraft, and the Templar class is slightly based towards the Dark Templar. I didn't actually get the name or the ideas from Starcraft, but that's just how it turned out. Since DTs are super-sneaky, invisible, dual wielding masters of doom, well you get the idea.

Baron Corm
2008-02-01, 10:50 AM
Sorry if I'm being unclear. I'm not really commenting on the power level at all. I'm just commenting that the equivalent spell level is 7th. Gnomes (LA+0 obviously) get some SLAs which have spell levels of 1 or 0. Drow (LA+2 I believe) get a SLA which has a spell level of 3, and some which are spell level 1, I think.

Now, you may say ethereal jaunt is not powerful enough to be a 7th level spell, and perhaps it's not, but I'm just saying that it is a 7th level spell, and that an LA +0 race probably shouldn't get a 7th level spell.

Also worth mentioning that the monk class gets the ability to go ethereal at a very high level (19?) and the ninja class gets it at level 10, so there is a lot of precedent for ethereal being a high-powered effect.

Jaerc
2008-02-01, 11:47 AM
You can't look at the level of the spell and call the game.

Look at what it does. Then what it can do at in low level hands. If you still feel a compromise is needed, only allow them to vanish for 1 minute.

Neftren
2008-02-01, 11:57 AM
Sorry if I'm being unclear. I'm not really commenting on the power level at all. I'm just commenting that the equivalent spell level is 7th. Gnomes (LA+0 obviously) get some SLAs which have spell levels of 1 or 0. Drow (LA+2 I believe) get a SLA which has a spell level of 3, and some which are spell level 1, I think.

Now, you may say ethereal jaunt is not powerful enough to be a 7th level spell, and perhaps it's not, but I'm just saying that it is a 7th level spell, and that an LA +0 race probably shouldn't get a 7th level spell.

Also worth mentioning that the monk class gets the ability to go ethereal at a very high level (19?) and the ninja class gets it at level 10, so there is a lot of precedent for ethereal being a high-powered effect.


Empty Body (Su)

At 19th level, a monk gains the ability to assume an ethereal state for 1 round per monk level per day, as though using the spell etherealness. She may go ethereal on a number of different occasions during any single day, as long as the total number of rounds spent in an ethereal state does not exceed her monk level.

That's for 19 rounds. That's basically two minutes, and you can use it multiple times. I'll have to agree with Jaerc that you cannot base the power level of a spell just off another spell level. Sure it's flavorful, but lets face it, Ethereal just isn't that good. Now if it were a Hide in Plain Sight ability, I'd be crying Broken. As for the monk, lets face it, they suck. They're only good when you roll above average stats for everything. Otherwise Multiple Attribute Deficiency will hurt you in the long run, unless you're building the monk for one thing.

Now on one hand, my ability basically extends duration, but is used only once per day. The ninja gets it later rather than earlier because there are a million ways of using repeated Etherealness to create a broken Sneak Attacker build.