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Talic
2008-02-01, 03:14 AM
Trying to design a level 1 Goblin rogue statblock, for future use as elite covert troops. Most books allowed, trying to keep most cheese out of it. Any ideas for feats/stat placement, etc?

Oh, and one other thing. As I want these troops to be really elite, I'm building them on a 32 point buy.

Nebo_
2008-02-01, 03:22 AM
Ignore the retarded weapon finesse prerequisite and give them high Dex and Con. Max hide and move silently and give them masterwork tools for both.

10 Str
20 Dex
14 Con
10 Int
10 Wis
6 Cha

Talic
2008-02-01, 03:27 AM
Ignore the retarded weapon finesse prerequisite and give them high Dex and Con. Max hide and move silently and give them masterwork tools for both.

10 Str
20 Dex
14 Con
10 Int
10 Wis
6 Cha

Cannot ignore prerequisites, sorry. Made PC's follow them, I will also. Perhaps Skill focus in Move silent, to bring it closer to the hide? (small size gives a +4 bonus to just the one)

I figured a good workaround would be using them as within 30 feet ranged combatants.

Further, I don't think the prereq for weapon finesse is retarded. A bit of overall skill fighting weapons before you can master deftly swinging a weapon with finesse? Makes sense to me.

The Professor
2008-02-01, 03:48 AM
Well, you're in luck with the Move Silently thing. Goblins and Hobgoblins are so awesome, that they recieve a +4 Racial Bonus to Move Silently.

The prerequisite for Weapon Finesse? Eh, not my favorite. I always figured that if you actually knew your strengths and weaknesses with a weapon, that using them well just came down naturally. Whether with a lot of brute force behind it, or a quick slash or jab. I usually wave it or give it for free.

That's totally off-topic though...

Well, now it depends on what you want them to do. I like the DEX and CON thing myself. Sniping might be good for them, and/or that Feat from PHB2 that adds your DEX to damage with a Crossbow.

Talic
2008-02-01, 03:56 AM
Well, you're in luck with the Move Silently thing. Goblins and Hobgoblins are so awesome, that they recieve a +4 Racial Bonus to Move Silently.

The prerequisite for Weapon Finesse? Eh, not my favorite. I always figured that if you actually knew your strengths and weaknesses with a weapon, that using them well just came down naturally. Whether with a lot of brute force behind it, or a quick slash or jab. I usually wave it or give it for free.

That's totally off-topic though...

Well, now it depends on what you want them to do. I like the DEX and CON thing myself. Sniping might be good for them, and/or that Feat from PHB2 that adds your DEX to damage with a Crossbow.


Good ideas. What about Flaws for extra feats?

I know there's a feat that halves the hide penalty for sniping? I can't remember if there's prereqs for that though.

its_all_ogre
2008-02-01, 05:21 AM
Typically I would give them improved initiative. If your going to boose their skills just add in stealthy. Remember that is a whopping +15 hide and move silently! Assuming your pcs are around the levels 1-3 they are just not going to spot them. So first round ambush, goblins attack.
Initiative is rolled, assuming they win they just move away and make a hide check. Should pass that no problem.
Or attack from two directions, one group attacks and then the other group attacks while the first group moves and hides.

Nebo_
2008-02-01, 05:39 AM
Further, I don't think the prereq for weapon finesse is retarded. A bit of overall skill fighting weapons before you can master deftly swinging a weapon with finesse? Makes sense to me.

It makes sense if you try to justify it like that, but you shouldn't have to. The feat is intended for the type of character that uses more Dex that Str. Generally, those classes have lower BAB. The prerequisite for Weapon Finesse is a terrible design flaw.



Initiative is rolled, assuming they win they just move away and make a hide check. Should pass that no problem.

You can't hide while being observed unless you have HiPS. The penalty for sniping is -20, so they're still at -5 overall.

its_all_ogre
2008-02-01, 05:44 AM
you move out of sight.
sorry should have made that clearer, but if you're an elite ambushing unit, you're going to have some kind of cover.
so pcs walk through forest, group of gobbos shoot from cover, surprise round
1st round they move out of sight and at same time other group attacks from other side.
repeat.
sure pcs could follow gobbos behind cover, but could be a trap? they don't know its not....
one time it will be you can be sure!

Talic
2008-02-01, 05:46 AM
It makes sense if you try to justify it like that, but you shouldn't have to. The feat is intended for the type of character that uses more Dex that Str. Generally, those classes have lower BAB. The prerequisite for Weapon Finesse is a terrible design flaw.

Put that way, that does make sense. I'd houserule it to have a dex requirement, perhaps, when put that way. Still, not changing things midstream.



You can't hide while being observed unless you have HiPS. The penalty for sniping is -20, so they're still at -5 overall.

True, there's a feat that cuts it to a -10 penalty though.

Also, the other solution is to use bluff to create a distraction, or to use the following attack pattern:

Standard action: Ranged attack.
Free Action: 5 foot step, behind total cover.
Move action: Hide/Move silently check.


On another front, what would a couple good flaws be, if I wanted to give these chumps an extra feat or two?

Human Paragon 3
2008-02-01, 10:04 AM
I thought you couldn't take a 5 foot step and a move action in the same round? Or is that just a 5 foot step and a move?

As for flaws, I would suggest non combative, which gives them a minus to melle attacks (perfect for hide/snipers who hate going toe-to-toe), pathetic (which you could use to reduce STR, WIS, CHA, or another stat that is somewhat less useful to a sniper), weak willed which gives a minus to will saves, or frail and/or vulnerable (which give -1 HP per HD and -1 AC perspectively, a fine couple of flaws if you're looking to build a glass cannon).

Personally, were it me making them, I'd give them non-combative and vulnerable, since these flaws are not negligable but not completely debilitating and fit with the theme of the encounter. The PCs are at a disadvantage against them as they hide and snipe, but once they catch them in the open, the goblins will go down fast. This can be mitigated by the use of traps, as somebody above said.

Telonius
2008-02-01, 10:12 AM
The rule is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#take5FootStep):

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don’t perform any other kind of movement. Taking this 5-foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity. You can’t take more than one 5-foot step in a round, and you can’t take a 5-foot step in the same round when you move any distance.

You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round.

You can only take a 5-foot step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.

You may not take a 5-foot step using a form of movement for which you do not have a listed speed.


You can't take a five foot step and Move in the same round.* Physically Moving (up to your base speed) is only one kind of Move Action. The 5-foot step rule only applies to moving. Other forms of move actions (Draw or Sheathe a weapon; Ready or Loose a shield; Manipulate an item; Direct or redirect a spell; Stand up; Mount or dismount a steed) are not affected.

EDIT: * - Normally. Belt of Battle and other sorts of "extra action" items can obviously override this.

its_all_ogre
2008-02-01, 10:12 AM
correct you cannot move and take a 5 foot step.

valadil
2008-02-01, 10:13 AM
If you really want weapon finesse, try the Variant Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) from UA. It's a fighter that trades in his bonus feats to gain sneak attack. If you need skills too the thug variant will let you trade your first level fighter feat and some proficiencies to get 4 skills a level instead of 2.

Devils_Advocate
2008-02-01, 03:08 PM
It makes sense if you try to justify it like that
No, it still really, really doesn't. Check it:

(1) Jack the Rogue is an agile, nimble, but weak combatant. His fighting style mostly involves quickly striking his enemies in their weak spots when they aren't watching him.

(2) Jill the Rogue is also nimble but weak, yet for some reason she clumsily thrusts at her opponents instead of using careful, precise jabs. Her clumsy thrusting doesn't usually manage to hit anyone, but when it does, it somehow consistently hits them in an especially vulnerable spot so long as she's flanking them with someone. Fortunately, getting some practice at this somehow allows her to eventually switch to an entirely different fighting style that she's actually good at.

(1) makes perfect sense. (2) makes zero sense. For starters, a level 1 Rogue already has a basic level of skill fighting with some weapons; that's what weapon proficiencies represent. The difference between +1 and +0 BAB is trivial compared to the difference between a nonproficiency penalty and no penalty, so saying that a rogue shouldn't know how to properly wield weapons she's proficient with is pretty silly. More to the point, I can't even imagine how someone is supposed to be able to do precision damage while using Strength to hit. If anything, Sneak Attack should only be usable with Weapon Finesse or ranged attacks, and Rogues should get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat to start with.

The way that WF works by the RAW is just frelling stupid. A rogue has to spend two levels sucking because the rules require him to use his weapon differently than he plausibly would have in the first place, and then suddenly starts using his weapon sensibly. You can mitigate this somewhat by giving him a higher Strength score, thereby making him markedly different from a Rouge built at level 3 or higher, and making him nerfed from level 3 upwards instead of just at levels 1 and 2. The prereq on WF really is a terrible game design, because it hurts game balance, it hurts verisimilitude, and it hurts rogues for no good reason. It's unbalanced; it's unrealistic; it's a pet peeve of mine. :smallmad:

Chronos
2008-02-01, 04:04 PM
Typically I would give them improved initiative. If your going to boose their skills just add in stealthy.I would agree with either of these choices. Going first is good for anyone, of course, but it's especially good for rogues, because if you win initiative in the first round, that's a round of sneak attacks. And it's always good to get better at something you're already good at, so Stealthy is good, too. It's especially good for characters you expect to stay low level, since +2 is a lot more significant compared to 4 or 5 ranks than it is compared to 20 ranks.

On the topic of Weapon Finesse, you still have to learn to use the more effective style (which is what's represented by taking the feat), so yes, it is plausible that someone would start off not using it. And the balance argument only comes up if you wouldn't take something else at first level... But even if it didn't have the prerequisite, I would still prefer to take Improved Initiative first. Your attack bonus doesn't do you any good if you get killed before you act, which is a very realistic possibility for a guy with 6 HP.