PDA

View Full Version : Gestalt Build Challenge I: Melee Masters (RESULTS IN #98)



Duke of URL
2008-02-01, 12:25 PM
GESTALT BUILD CHALLENGE I: MELEE MASTERS


Magic... bah! Who needs it? A true warrior trusts only his own hands and the weapons they hold, if any.

"Gestalt Build Challenge" General Rules

Unless otherwise specified in the specific challenge, the following rules and guidelines are always in effect:
Gestalt builds; 28-point buy; use any WOTC 3.5 product (including Dragon magazine) except where noted (only 3.0 products with an official upgrade to 3.5 are allowed)
Make all builds to ECL 20. However, indicate the minimum ECL the build is playable at (the level at which all LA and/or racial HD, if applicable, are accounted for) and label any level that indicates a "power break" where the build has a significant jump in power level. Provide a detailed description of how the build operates.
Any race with a listed level adjustment is allowed (no racial progressions from Savage Species, please). LA and HD each apply to one side of the gestalt; you may include LA and HD on the same side as each other, or on other sides. No LA buyoff. LA is applied before racial HD, which must be paid off before class levels on that side. Examples: LA X / RHD Y / class Z / ... // class A / ... -OR- LA X / class Y / ... // RHD A / class B / ...
Multiclass at will, but see "voting".
Up to two flaws are allowed, but see "voting".
Templates are allowed, but see "voting".
Voting: Upon the close of entries for each challenge, members of the forum may vote in-thread for the build that best represents the goals set out by the challenge. The voting criteria should consist of: Functionality: How well does the build do in its primary role as specified in the challenge? Weaknesses: Does the build have any glaring weaknesses that can be exploited? Playability: How much of the 1-20 level range can the build be played at and be effective? Creativity: Clever use of races, classes, and/or feats that may not be "typical" choices Cheese: Minimizing the number of cheese points Using flaws (1 point each) Ignoring mutliclassing penalties (1 point each) Single-level dips that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point each) Templates that would require several pages of justification to RP properly (1 point per +1 LA) Attempting to use more than one PrC at any given level (1 point each) Attempting to use "dual progression" PrCs (1,000,000 points each) Over-dependence on items (1 point per indispensable item) Over-dependence on Diplomacy or Use Magic Device skills (1,000,000 points each)

"Melee Masters" Specific Rules
Entries may be submitted and edited up until noon PST on Tuesday, Feb. 5, 2008.
Absolutely no spellcasting or psionic classes may be used at any point in the build; any "half-caster" class must use a non-spellcasting variant if one is available, otherwise, tough luck.
Challenge goals: Kill or incapacitate enemies in any arbitrary quantities as efficiently and reliably as possible, while staying alive long enough to do it.
Please try to follow the format of the example (but also a legit entry) in the next post
Submitted Entries: "Blender" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3873060&postcount=2)
"Shadowfist" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3873766&postcount=31)
"Return Fire" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3873836&postcount=32)
"Swift Sickle Hunter" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3873842&postcount=33)
"DDR (Dervish Dance Rend)" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3873601&postcount=23)
"Unarmed Whirlwind of Doom" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3874118&postcount=37)
"Claws, Flame and Glaive of Immolation" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3875252&postcount=59)
"Seige Engine" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3875390&postcount=61)
"Fulbar the Redeemed" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3875666&postcount=66)
"Frankenninja's Monster" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3876133&postcount=69) <== WINNER!
"A Bear With The Strength Of Two Bears" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3876381&postcount=70)
"Thri-Keen" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3876660&postcount=71)
"Antarnis" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3883319&postcount=75)


Upcoming Challenges
Great Gishes -- arcanist/warriors who excel at both
The Urge To Theurge -- mixing and matching magic (and psionic) disciplines
Army Of One -- single-creature adventuring parties
Invocation Vocation -- invokers need a little loving, too
Double Dippers -- double arcane, double divine, or double psionic progressions
more to come...

Duke of URL
2008-02-01, 12:26 PM
Name: "Blender"
Build: Pixie Lion Totem Barbarian 1 / (Non-Spellcasting) Ranger 2 / Fighter 2 / Dervish 10 / Tempest 5 // LA 4 / Rogue 16
Starting Ability Scores: STR 10, DEX 26, CON 14, INT 12, WIS 10, CHA 12
Cheese Points: 1 (Lion Totem Barbarian dip)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 5
Power Break: Level 15 - Savvy Rogue + Crippling Strike means STR damage to any flanked or flat-footed creature. Oh, and you get A Thousand Cuts at the same time

Pixie: [Dodge, Weapon Finesse] {Pixie Traits}
1: Ranger 1 // LA 1: Mobility {Favored Enemy, Wild Empathy}
2: Lion Totem Barb 1 // LA 2: {Pounce}
3: Ranger 2 // LA 3: Combat Expertise [TWF]
4: Fighter 1 // LA 4: [Weapon Focus: Scimitar]
5: Fighter 2 // Rogue 1: [Improved Initiative]
6: Dervish 1 // Rogue 2: Improved TWF {*AC Bonus, *Dervish Dance, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades, *Evasion}
7: Dervish 2 // Rogue 3: {*Fast Movement; Trap Sense}
8: Dervish 3 // Rogue 4: [Spring Attack] {Uncanny Dodge}
9: Dervish 4 // Rogue 5: Combat Reflexes {*Dance of Death}
10: Dervish 5 // Rogue 6:
11: Dervish 6 // Rogue 7: {Improved Reaction}
12: Dervish 7 // Rogue 8: Greater TWF {Elaborate Parry, Improved Uncanny Dodge}
13: Dervish 8 // Rogue 9:
14: Dervish 9 // Rogue 10: {Tireless Dance, Crippling Strike}
15: Dervish 10 // Rogue 11: Savvy Rogue {A Thousand Cuts}
16: Tempest 1 // Rogue 12: {Tempest Defense}
17: Tempest 2 // Rogue 13: {Ambidexterity, Opportunist}
18: Tempest 3 // Rogue 14: Defensive Sweep {Two-Weapon Versitility}
19: Tempest 4 // Rogue 15:
20: Tempest 5 // Rogue 16: {Two-Weapon Spring Attack, Slippery Mind}

Offense:

High DEX plus Improved Initiative plus Improved Reaction leads to going first most of the time. Pounce (using fly speed of 75') to land a large number of sneak attacks; at level 15 and beyond these still do 2 STR damage each to enemies immune to sneak attack damage thanks to Savvy Rogue. In successive rounds, use Dervish Dance and invisibility to their best effects, resorting to Spring Attack to back off and attempt another Pounce if necessary. In a thicket of enemies, Defensive Sweep can result in a large number of AoOs. Full BAB at all levels.

Weapon choices should focus on debilitating effects (with no save, such as Enfeebling) rather than additional damage.

Defense:

High dexterity, good HP, natural armor +1, total concealment from invisibility, DR 10/cold iron, SR 15 + level, flight, good and balanced saving throws at pretty much all levels.

Weaknesses:

Relies on magic items to boost AC. True seeing, etc., can be a problem.

Draz74
2008-02-01, 12:39 PM
Absolutely no spellcasting or psionic classes may be used at any point in the build;

No Psychic Warrior allowed in a melee build contest? Lame. :smallannoyed:

Talya
2008-02-01, 12:49 PM
Damn. I love this idea. Gimme time, I could play with it forever.

Frosty
2008-02-01, 12:57 PM
I can do something basica really quickly. I think I'll do my own version of the Blender.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-01, 01:07 PM
Qurey regarding Tome of Blood and Martial Adept mechanics.

Fluff says that maneuvers and disciplines are Extraordinary and Supernatural and all classes provide at least a 1/2 initiator level.

I view Disciplines like schools Judo, Karate, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Doe. All classes provide at least a 1/2 Initiator level. ToB has rules for multiclassing in disciplines regarding MR and initiator levels.

IMO if two classes are providing a initiator level in gestalt and one is 1/2 and the other is 1 you use the 1 for both of them since gestalt takes the best of the build which would include the best of MK, MR and SK at each level.

In Gestalt and only under Gestalt rules I believe Warblade maneuver recovery would trump Swordsage maneuver recovery if at some point in the build the two classes crossover because this is impossible under the normal rules and it will make a major difference in the builds.

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-01, 01:13 PM
In regards to ToB, the stances and manuvers for having two classes in this fashion are tracked seperately, just as if you were playing a Wizard//Sorcerer. As such, each set of manuvers has to be recovered seperately as well. So with a Swordsage//Warblade you could either use the Warblade's recovery and get all the manuvers you learned as a Warblade back, or the Swordsage recovery to get a single Swordsage manuver back.

Also, I'd like to try my hand at this, but where does the Factotum's casting ability fall under this? If you are unaware, they get a small number of of spells each day that they can use as spell like abilities. So if one took Magic Missile it's be like (Sp) Magic Missile 1/day. They just hapen to be able to change the spells they can cast every morning. Honeslty my build would barely if at all use it, but I want to know if you'll allow it.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-01, 01:21 PM
In regards to ToB, the stances and manuvers for having two classes in this fashion are tracked seperately, just as if you were playing a Wizard//Sorcerer. As such, each set of manuvers has to be recovered seperately as well. So with a Swordsage//Warblade you could either use the Warblade's recovery and get all the manuvers you learned as a Warblade back, or the Swordsage recovery to get a single Swordsage manuver back.



I understand that reasoning and the reason for my gestalt query to the OP because Martial Adept levels confer a stacking +1/2 for any class which is different than the sorcerer/wizard spellcasting analogy commonly brought up. This issue only comes up in a gestalt game where a PC can take advantage of it since it is never ever an option at any other time in game when the PC is multiclassing instead of simultaneously dual leveling.

Taking levels in sorcerer does not normally automatically confer +1/2 CL to the other class like initiator levels do for all classes.

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-01, 01:28 PM
I understand that reasoning and the reason for my gestalt query to the OP because Martial Adept levels confer a stacking +1/2 for any class which is different than the sorcerer/wizard spellcasting analogy. This only comes up in a gestalt game.

Taking levels in sorcerer does not normally automatically confer +1/2 CL to the other class like initiator levels do for all classes.

Except that the +1/2 applies to non Martial Adept classes, and the Martial Adept classes add their own +1. Initiator Level is different than caster level in that everybody has one no matter their class selection. If you hav a Regular Character that's a Swordsage6/Warblade6, your initiator level is 12, not Swordsage IL 9 and Warblade IL 9.

The Comparison to Wizard//Sorcerer is that the classes have different spell selection. In the same vein, Swordsage and Warbalde have different lists of manuvers to choose from, and are tracked seperately, even in Gestalt. So you can't regain your Swordsage manuvers with your Warblade Recovery the same way the Sorcerer can't pick a spell out of his Spellbook to cast spontaneously if he didn't learn it as a Sorcerer.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-01, 01:33 PM
Except that the +1/2 applies to non Martial Adept classes, and the Martial Adept classes add their own +1. Initiator Level is different than caster level in that everybody has one no matter their class selection. If you hav a Regular Character that's a Swordsage6/Warblade6, your initiator level is 12, not Swordsage IL 9 and Warblade IL 9.



I believe that is incorrect a Swordsage - 6, Warblade - 6 has an initator level of 9 for both classes under the standard ToB rules unless you are using an errata.

Page 39 of ToB has an example of a Crusader - 7, Swordsage -5 with an Initiator level of 8 as a Swordsage and and an initiator level of 9 as a Crusader.

Duke of URL
2008-02-01, 01:34 PM
where does the Factotum's casting ability fall under this? If you are unaware, they get a small number of of spells each day that they can use as spell like abilities. So if one took Magic Missile it's be like (Sp) Magic Missile 1/day. They just hapen to be able to change the spells they can cast every morning. Honeslty my build would barely if at all use it, but I want to know if you'll allow it.

Personally, I feel that it would violate the spirit of the challenge. However, I'm but one vote -- if you think enough people will let it slide, go for it.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-01, 01:36 PM
Personally, I feel that it would violate the spirit of the challenge. However, I'm but one vote -- if you think enough people will let it slide, go for it.

It's your thread which basically makes you the DM so I prefer to abide by your rules and not waste my time on an illegal build.

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-01, 01:37 PM
I believe that is incorrect a Swordsage - 6, Warblade - 6 has an initator level of 9 for both classes under the standard ToB rules unless you are using an errata.

You know what, I'm thinking backwards, you're right on that point, even if it means that a Warblade20//Swordsage20 would have an IL of 30 for both classes...

But the manuvers are still tracked and recovered seperately, even in Gestalt, which is the real point i was trying to make.

Indon
2008-02-01, 01:42 PM
I'd vote against any build that heavily relied on SLA's, myself.

I also very much like this thread idea, and hope to be posting a build.

Duke of URL
2008-02-01, 01:46 PM
It's your thread which basically makes you the DM so I prefer to abide by your rules and not waste my time on an illegal build.

I'm trying to leave things somewhat intentionally vague and in the hands of the eventual voters.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-02-01, 01:49 PM
The point of Factotum wouldn't be to rely on SLAs. It would be to take Font of Inspiration a bunch of times, accumulating disgustingly high quantities of Inspiration Points, and then spend them on the level 8 Cunning Surge ability to take lots of extra standard actions. Couple this with the Warblade (powerful standard-action maneuvers; INT dependency) for obvious power: you unleash all of your maneuvers as soon as you go, basically, and leave a smoking crater behind.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-01, 01:50 PM
You know what, I'm thinking backwards, you're right on that point, even if it means that a Warblade20//Swordsage20 would have an IL of 30 for both classes...

But the manuvers are still tracked and recovered seperately, even in Gestalt, which is the real point i was trying to make.

No in gestalt it would be IL - 20 at L20 taking the best of 1/2 and 1 or 1 and 1 at each level is still only 1 not 1&1/2.

No I disagree that is the only valid rules interpretation in a gestalt game. Under gestalt rules the PC could and would take the best of MK, MR and SK gained at each level and dropping the rest but I respect that not everyone interprets or uses the rules that way in their gestalt games. Basically going Swordsage or Warblade with a few level dips would be best IMO. Yes it is very powerful but so is fullcasting.

I believe it mostly depends on how the rules are interpreted and applied in a game and everyone is having fun. I'm generally an optimizer particularly in a long campaign. The other side of my build was going to include Factotum for the IPs and the skill Iajutsu Focus which also appears out of favor for the thread.

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-01, 01:57 PM
I believe it mostly depends on how the rules are interpreted and applied in a game and everyone is having fun.

Yeah, it's definitely a matter of interpretation,e specially since Gestalt rules were published long before ToB, and the rules in ToB took multiclassing into account but not Gestalt, since it's an optional ruleset.

Anyway, my build isn't going to have Martial Adepts on both sides, so it's somewhat moot.

Duke of URL
2008-02-01, 01:57 PM
Since the response seems positive so far, I've updated post #1 to list the upcoming challenges I'm thinking of.

Draz74
2008-02-01, 02:14 PM
No Psychic Warrior allowed in a melee build contest? Lame. :smallannoyed:

And another question. Should dual-progression PrCs be allowed, as long as they only advance two classes from the same "side"? E.g. Rogue 20//Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10?

This question doesn't matter two much for the current, melee-centric contest, but it will matter a lot in the future.

Duke of URL
2008-02-01, 02:16 PM
Should dual-progression PrCs be allowed, as long as they only advance two classes from the same "side"? E.g. Rogue 20//Wizard 7/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 10?

That's covered under the "cheese points". Short answer: No.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-01, 02:22 PM
In progress and subject to change

playswithfire
2008-02-01, 02:25 PM
Name: "DDR (Dervish Dance Rend)"
Build: Succubus(LA 6/HD 6)/ Warblade 8// Battle Dancer 2/Paladin of Slaughter 2/Fighter 2/Warblade 2/Bloodclaw Master 2/Dervish 10
Starting Ability Scores: STR 12, DEX 16, CON 16, INT 20, WIS 12, CHA 31(+5 to 36 at 20)
Cheese Points: 3 (one flaw,slippers of battledancing, the kukris)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 12
Power Break: Significant increases at 12 (improved energy drain), 15(lightning maces) and 20(thousand cuts


Succubus: {Succubus Traits}
1 LA/Battledancer feat[Weapon Focus(kukri)]
flaw(shaky)[Weapon Focus(Light Mace)]
CHA to unarmored AC
2 LA/Battledancer
3 LA/Paladin of Slaughter feat[Combat Expertise]
4 LA/Paladin of Slaughter
5 LA/Fighter fighter[Dodge]
6 LA/Fighter fighter[Mobility]
feat[Two Weapon Fighting]
7 Succubus/Warblade stance[Blood in the Water]
8 Succubus/Warblade
9 Succubus/bloodclaw feat[Improved Two Weapon Fighting]
claws of the beast
10 Succubus/bloodclaw Superior Two Weapon Fighting
11 Succubus/Dervish
12 Succubus/Dervish feat[Improved Energy Drain]
13 Warblade/Dervish
14 Warblade/Dervish
15 Warblade/Dervish warblade[combat reflexes]
feat[Lightning Maces]
16 Warblade/Dervish
17 Warblade/Dervish
18 Warblade/Dervish feat[Greater Two Weapon Fighting]
19 Warblade/Dervish
20 Warblade/Dervish

Notable gear: Slippers of Battledancing, 2 +1 Keen Aptitude Necrotic Focus kukris
Stuff I'd probably get but it's not critical: Blindfold of true seeing, CHA, CON and DEX boosting items, ring of freedom of movement

Offense: Full BAB, no penalties to two weapon fighting, full strength to offhand weapon. While dervish dancing or using Charging Pounce maneuver to go more than 10 feet, use CHA (+13) for hit and damage on melee. Staying mainly in blood in the water stance to get most benefit out of the kukri's threat range.

Every attack that threatens a critical gets me another attack (Lightning maces attuned to kukris), every hit drains a level and gives stacking +1s to attack, save and skill rolls for an hour (Improved Energy Drain), every confirmed crit drains another level (so an additional +1 to those rolls) and adds stacking +1 to attack and damage rolls as long as I crit at least once every 10 rounds.

Good Manuevers: Pouncing Charge, Raging Mongoose, Girallon Windmill Fleshrip

Defense:

High AC thanks to +9 natural armor and +13 CHA bonus to unarmored AC thanks to battle dancer. Good saves across the board thanks to paladin giving charisma to all saves and the ability to boost them with Improved Energy Drain. DR 10/cold iron or good and SR 18+class levels, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10

Weaknesses: Gear dependent to get some of the best effects. Needs to keep moving to be at maximum effectiveness. Please point out any others I'm not seeing.

Draz74
2008-02-01, 02:25 PM
That's covered under the "cheese points". Short answer: No.

Right. The idea is that I don't agree with that rule and was advocating changing it. Because I think most DMs are fine with dual-prog PrCs in Gestalt, as long as they follow this restriction.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-02-01, 02:28 PM
Because I'm to lazy to actually stat anything up, I'll throw this out there for anyone to use. Melee class on one side, Rogue on the other, TWF optimized, with a wand of UMD so you always have a flanking partner. Lots of D6's that way.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-02-01, 02:29 PM
is savage species considered 3.5 for this?

Duke of URL
2008-02-01, 02:29 PM
Right. The idea is that I don't agree with that rule and was advocating changing it. Because I think most DMs are fine with dual-prog PrCs in Gestalt, as long as they follow this restriction.

I'm not fine with it, as you're now advancing three classes per level instead of two. The gestalt rules specifically recommend against doing what you are asking for, and I agree with them.

Draz74
2008-02-01, 02:34 PM
I'm not fine with it, as you're now advancing three classes per level instead of two. The gestalt rules specifically recommend against doing what you are asking for, and I agree with them.

OK. Just a suggestion. :smallsmile:

Don't get me wrong, I definitely think dual-PrCs shouldn't be allowed if they advance things from both sides of your progression. Cleric 3/Rogue 17//Wizard 10/Mystic Theurge 10 is very different from the build I posted earlier (because it loses no caster levels, at least until Level 13), and I am definitely against Gestalt allowing these types of builds. They are, IMHO, the reason the Gestalt rules "specifically recommend against" dual-PrCs.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-01, 02:43 PM
I was rereading the rules and LA and HD should probably apply to both sides of the build.

Duke of URL
2008-02-01, 02:47 PM
I was rereading the rules and LA and HD should probably apply to both sides of the build.

Maybe, but as you pointed out before, it's my thread. :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, in the gestalt games I've seen, there's been no consistent application at all -- I went with the most lenient form that seems to work.

Applying HD to both sides honestly seems wrong -- racial HD should act exactly like a character class, so one side or the other makes perfect sense. LA is trickier -- you could apply it to both sides, but that actually makes LA more penalizing in gestalt than in normal play, given the increased power level per character level. A happier medium would be to use LA/2 (round up) on each side or LA on one side only, which is the way I went.

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-01, 02:54 PM
All right, here's what I've come up with. I don't have the energy to list out all the manuvers selected at the moment, but I might draw it up and spoiler it later.



Name: Shadowfist
Build: Human Monk10/Shadow Sun Ninja10//Swordsage20
Str- 10
Dex- 16(18)
Con- 14(15)
Int- 10
Wis- 14(16)
Cha- 10
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: ECL1
Power Break: Level 11, Touch of the Shadow Sun allows for in-combat healing while dealing negative energy damage.
Level Classes Feat(s)/Features
1 Monk1//Swordsage1 Shadow Blade, Adaptive Style, Imp Grapple, Discipline Focus (Shadow Hand)
QTA +1, Descisive Strike ACF (PHB2)
2 Monk2//Swordsage2 Combat Reflexes, Evasion
3 Monk3//Swordsage3 Weapon Finesse, Still Mind
4 Monk4//Swordsage4 Holy Strike ACF (CompChamp), Insightful Strike(Tiger Claw), +1 Dex, Slow Fall 20
5 Monk5//Swordsage5 QTA +2, Purity of Body
6 Monk6//Swordsage6 Superior Unarmed Strike, Improved Trip
7 Monk7//Swordsage7 Wholeness of Body, Sense Magic
8 Monk8//Swordsage8 Slow Fall 40, Defensive Stance(Shadow Hand) +1 Dex
9 Monk9//Swordsage9 Improved Evasion, Vital Recovery
10 Monk10//Swordsage10 Ki Strike(lawful), Slow Fall 50, QTA +3
11 SSN1//Swordsage11 Touch of the Shadow Sun
12 SSN2//Swordsage12 Flame of the Shadow Sun+1 Wis, Insightful Strike(Shadow Hand), Desert Wind Dodge
13 SSN3//Swordsage13
14 SSN4//Swordsage14 Light within Darkness
15 SSN5//Swordsage15 Darkness Within light, QTA+4, Stone Power
16 SSN6//Swordsage16 +1 Wis, Defensive Stance (Tiger Claw)
17 SSN7//Swordsage17 Void of the Shadow Sun
18 SSN8//Swordsage18 Child of Shadow and Light, Shards of Granite
19 SSN9//Swordsage19
20 SSN10//Swordsage20 Balance of Light and Dark, Dual Boost 3/day, QTA +5, +1 Con

Offense:
Focus on Shadow Hand, Diamond Mind, Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon manuvers for debilitation and damage potential. Free Weapon focus combined with weapon finesse helps mitigate non-full bab. Little dependency of magic items of offense. Jump, Hide and Concentration are key skils that increase in power every level. Quick to Act (QTA) improves initiative.

Defense:
High Dex, Wis to AC, Monk AC Bonus, Improved Evasion, Immunity to Disease. Many stances and amnuvers provide a defensive bonus when needed, i.e. concealment. 3 Good saves. Excellent tumbling ability. Not very vulnerable to dispels due to lack of magic item dependency.

Weaknesses:
Only a d8 hit die, little lacking in the AC department without magic items. Can't overcome DR/Magic without using Stone Dragon Manuvers. Lack of effective healing til 11th level.

Fax Celestis
2008-02-01, 03:11 PM
Name: "Return Fire"
Build: Half-Giant Knight 20//Ranger (CCham variant) 4/Scout (Riposte variant) 15
Starting Ability Scores: STR 10+2 (12), DEX 15-2 (13), CON 12+2 (14), INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 15
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 3
Power Break: ECL 9, when Swift Hunter is acquired.

Skiurid:
{table=head]ECL | Left Class | Right Class | Gains
1 | Knight | LA | Combat Expertise
2 | Knight | Ranger |
3 | Knight | Ranger | Deadly Defense
4 | Knight | Ranger | +1 Cha
5 | Knight | Ranger | Dodge
6 | Knight | Scout | Improved Combat Expertise
7 | Knight | Scout |
8 | Knight | Scout | +1 Cha
9 | Knight | Scout | Swift Hunter
10 | Knight | Scout |
11 | Knight | Scout |
12 | Knight | Scout | +1 Cha, Mobility
13 | Knight | Scout |
14 | Knight | Scout |
15 | Knight | Scout | Elusive Target
16 | Knight | Scout | +1 Cha
17 | Knight | Scout |
18 | Knight | Scout | Feat
19 | Knight | Scout |
20 | Knight | Scout | +1 Cha
[/table]

Offense:

Defense:

Weaknesses:


In progress.

Frosty
2008-02-01, 03:13 PM
I don't have my books with me right now so I can't really give the exact progression and feats, but here's a basic idea. This is very onoptimized since I'm just throwing out ideas from my head.


Name: "Swift Sickle Hunter"
Build: Catfolk LA1/Scout5/Dervish10/Warblade4 //Ranger1/Fighter2/Ranger14/Swordsage3

Base stats at level 1: STR 14, DEX 20, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 10
Level-up boosts all go into DEX for a Natural DEX of 25.

With items, most likely STR 20, DEX 36, CON 20, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 10

Cheese Points: 2 (Flaws), 3? (multiclass. Seriously, multiclass penalties should NOT apply in Gestalt games)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 1
Power Break: Level 7, sort of. Once you get the Swift Hunter feat, it all goes up-hill from there. Level 7 let's you full-attack while moving.

Catfolks: +10 speed, +1 Natural Armor, bonuses to search and spot, +4 Dex, +2 Charisma. Ranger is alternate version with Bonus Feats

Flaws will give Combat Expertise and Weapon Finesse
1: Ranger 1 // LA 1: Improved Trip
2: Fighter 1 // Scout 1: Combat Reflex
3: Fighter 2 // Scout 2: Dodge, Weapon Focus (Sickle)
4: Ranger 2 // Scout 3: Two weapon fighting
5: Ranger 3 // Scout 4: Mobility
6: Dervish 1 // Scout 5: Swift Hunter (Trade in Evasion for Spell-reflection now or later with Ranger 9)
7: Dervish 2 // Ranger 4: Two-weapon Defense
8: Dervish 3 // Ranger 5: Spring Attack
9: Dervish 4 // Ranger 6: Improved Skirmish, Imp. TWF
10: Dervish 5 // Ranger 7:
11: Dervish 6 // Ranger 8: Imp TWD
12: Dervish 7 // Ranger 9: Elusive Target (tactical feat)
13: Dervish 8 // Ranger 10:
14: Dervish 9 // Ranger 11: Greater TWF, Greater TWD
15: Dervish 10 // Ranger 12: Robilar's Gambit
16: Swordsage 1 // Ranger 13:
17: Swordsage 2 // Warblade1:
18: Warblade 2 // : Ranger 14: Deft Opportunist, Improved Favored Enemy
19: Warblade 3 // Ranger 15:
20: Warblade 4 // Swordsage3:

Offense:

Plan is simple: Full BAB. Cut the enemy into teeny eensy bits with 7 attacks that do +7d6 each before items. After items, most likely 9d6 extra damage per hit. With Dervish, you move and full-attack, and you gain AC while doing it. Also, don't Tumble. Let enemies try to hit you. When they miss, they generate two actions from you. One is a standard AoO from Robilar's gambit, and the other is a trip attempt from Elusive Target.

Immunity to critical hits is not a problem thanks to Swift Hunter. Pick favored enemies that are immune to critical hits, and now you can skirmish them all day long. The great thing about this build is that it doesn't rely on the enemy being in a certain state at all. Mindless, immune to crit, construct whatever, as long as you move 10 ft, you can deal skirmish damage. You do not need to rely on an opponent being flat-footed or not being able to see invisible.

Offensively boosts from ToB would be used to help get to the enemy, increase speed, etc.

Outside of combat, this character has a lot of skill points. 14 int + classes that give 6 or 8 points per level means this character can double as the skillmonkey.

Defense:

High dexterity, natural armor +1, good fort and reflex saves, Evasion, Spell-reflection your DEX modifier times per day against ranged magical attacks. Concealment thanks to a Shadow Hand stance if you choose to be in that stance.

Defensively, there are counters to help with saves and replace AC with an attack roll. There is also Iron Heart Surge. Fear it.

Weaknesses:

Not a tank, but not squishy either. Mediocre Will save. However, Most Will saves can be rendered a non-issue with a Third Eye: conceal (basically, constant Mind Blank). Relies on magic items somewhat to boost AC and get things like DR. Will most likely wear some sort of Robe and enchant that instead of armor since there isn't any armor with +16 max dex. Also might go for a shield with Animated enchantment. Needs a magic item to deal with flying enemies. Enemies with high DR can be annoying, since this character relies on many hits, but the right enchantment can take care of DR.

Must have items: While many things are nice and can boost damage, the only items that are really necessary is something that can increase speed, if Dervish doesn't allow you to strike with both your primary hand and off-hand between each move. 14 attacks means You'd need a 150 move speed, which this character doesn't have naturally.

An item of Mindblank (like Third Eye: conceal or the Ring version of it in the DMG 2) is very important since at high levels enemies can dominate you easily. Also, it protects against some save-or-dies.

A pair of goggles that lets you see invisible creatures.

A boots or cape of Fly or Air-walk is crucial against airborne creatures since this build does not focus on ranged attacks. I suspect this is a common weakness amongst all melee builds of course.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-01, 03:16 PM
Maybe, but as you pointed out before, it's my thread. :smallbiggrin:




Yes it is and thanks for the clarification.

Frosty
2008-02-01, 03:27 PM
Fast update on OP. Nice.

Duke of URL
2008-02-01, 03:29 PM
Fast update on OP. Nice.

It helps when y'all post in such close bunches. :smallwink:

By the time my slow hunt-and-peck typing catches up, someone else has posted another one!

_Puppetmaster_
2008-02-01, 04:04 PM
here is my entry:

Name: Unarmed Whirlwind of Doom
Build: Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus Bonus Feat Rogue 8/Tattooed Monk 10//Ex-Barbarian 1/Monk 19
Starting Ability Scores: Str 18, Dex 22, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 4
Cheese Points: 2 (Lion Totem Barbarian Dip and Flaw)


Anthropomorphic Giant Octopus [Flaw: Murkey-Eyed] {6 arms, Anthropomorphic Animal Traits, Giant Octopus Traits}

Racial HD 1//Ex-Lion Totem Barbarian 1: Multi-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse {Pounce, land speed 30ft, no rage}
Racial HD 2//Monk 1 [Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike] {Flurry of blows, AC bonus}
Bonus Feat Rogue 1//Monk 2: Endurance [Deflect Arrows, Two-Weapon Defense] {Evasion, Trapfinding}
Bonus Feat Rogue 2//Monk 3 [Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)] {Con +1, Still Mind, Land Speed 40ft}
Bonus Feat Rogue 3//Monk 4 {Trap Sense +1, Ki Strike (magic), Slow Fall 20ft}
Bonus Feat Rogue 4//Monk 5: Improved Multi-Weapon Fighting [Improved Two-Weapon Defense] {Purity of Body, Uncanny Dodge}
Bonus Feat Rogue 5//Monk 6 [Improved Disarm] {Slow Fall 30ft, Land Speed 50ft}
Bonus Feat Rogue 6//Monk 7 [Powerful Charge] {Wholeness of Body, Trap Sense +2, Con +1}
Bonus Feat Rogue 7//Monk 8: Run {Slow Fall 40ft, Land Speed 50ft}
Bonus Feat Rogue 8//Monk 9 [Greater Powerful Charge] {Improved Uncanny Dodge, Improved Evasion}
Tattooed Monk 1//Monk 10 {Wasp Tattoo, Ki Strike (Lawful), Slow Fall 50ft}
Tattooed Monk 2//Monk 11: Greater Multi-Weapon Fighting {Greater Flurry, Diamond Body, Wis +1}
Tattooed Monk 3//Monk 12 {Chrysanthemum Tattoo, Abundant Step, Land Speed 60ft, Slow Fall 60ft}
Tattooed Monk 4//Monk 13 {Diamond Soul}
Tattooed Monk 5//Monk 14: Greater Two-Weapon Defense [Diehard] {Slow Fall 70ft, Pine Tattoo}
Tattooed Monk 6//Monk 15 {Land Speed 70ft, Quivering Palm, Wis +1}
Tattooed Monk 7//Monk 16 {White Mask Tattoo, Ki Strike (Adamantine), Slow Fall 80ft}
Tattooed Monk 8//Monk 17: Fleet of Foot {Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon}
Tattooed Monk 9//Monk 18 {Crescent Moon Tattoo, Slow Fall 90ft}
Tattooed Monk 10//Monk 19 {Empty Body, Con +1}

Offense:
His high Dex may let him go first, but it is not crucial, because he can change direction in a charge via fleet of foot. His huge number of attacks will help him deal damage in leu of enchantments on weapons. His tactics are to charge and flurry, multiweapon fighting with unarmed strikes, and using his bite and tentacles as secondary attacks, and trying to grapple with his improved grab ability so he can constrict in the next round.

Defense:
His main defense is his dexterity modifier, AC bonus, and two-weapon defense feats. His AC comes out to 24 without items.

Weaknesses:
He has low Hit Points

Talya
2008-02-01, 04:20 PM
Hey, I don't think you can use opposing sides of the gestalt to stack Initiator Level on top of each other. That becomes a "dual progression" issue. Furthermore, since both sides are advancing the same initiator level simultaneously, only the higher would take effect in a gestalt game.

Therefore (for simplicity sake), a 20 rogue//20 Warblade would not have an initiator level of 30, because the IL from rogue would have been supplanted by the IL from Warblade. 20 swordsage//20 warblade would be similar...they both have their own separate initiator level, but where a non-gestalt 10 swordsage/10 warblade would have an IL of 15 for both classes, in the gestalt game, the 1/2 rate advancement of the IL from one side would be supplanted by the full advancement on the other. Besides, it's pure cheese to have an initiator level of 30.

Frosty
2008-02-01, 04:25 PM
Agreed. It's the only way that makes sense. I updated my entry to include more on items and such.

However, this begs the question:

Given this build (N = non-initiator)

1. N / N
2. Warblade/Crusader
3. N / N
4. Warblade/Crusader

What should be the initiator level for Warblade and Crusader? IL3 or IL4?

Talya
2008-02-01, 04:44 PM
However, this begs the question:

Given this build (N = non-initiator)

1. N / N
2. Warblade/Crusader
3. N / N
4. Warblade/Crusader

What should be the initiator level for Warblade and Crusader? IL3 or IL4?

IL3 for both, fairly obviously, I think.

Frosty
2008-02-01, 05:17 PM
Oh right. Forget I asked that. I am...not thinking straight today.

Indon
2008-02-01, 05:19 PM
A better question:

What's the initiator levels for a Swordsage 10/Warblade 10//Warblade 10/Swordsage 10?

Fax Celestis
2008-02-01, 05:21 PM
A better question:

What's the initiator levels for a Swordsage 10/Warblade 10//Warblade 10/Swordsage 10?

Like good vision: 20//20.

Frosty
2008-02-01, 05:23 PM
IL only goes up to 20 pre-epic.

Each character level will either contribute 1/2 or 1 IL. Never more than one IL.

playswithfire
2008-02-01, 05:29 PM
My take (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3873601&postcount=23) on the dervish is now in the proper format.

Battle dancer is from dragon compendium.

Chronos
2008-02-01, 05:34 PM
What's the initiator levels for a Swordsage 10/Warblade 10//Warblade 10/Swordsage 10?Gestalt can get buggy when you have one class show up on both sides of the progression (even if not both at the same time). My recommendation would be to just plain not do it.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-01, 05:46 PM
This could be an interesting Initiator Level quandry in gestalt:

Swordsage -2, Crusader -1, Swordsage +1// Barbarian-1, Crusader -1, Warblade - 2

Do all 3 martial adept classes have IL - 4 at level 4 since ILs are overlapping at each level?

Indon
2008-02-01, 05:48 PM
My recommendation would be to just plain not do it.

That just defeats the purpose of the RAW. :P

Douglas
2008-02-01, 05:48 PM
No, all 3 martial adept classes have an IL of 2 3. (correcting for your edit)

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-01, 06:03 PM
No, all 3 martial adept classes have an IL of 2 3. (correcting for your edit)

The edit clarified the example a little better with 4 martial adept class levels versus 3 in gestalt with a little class overlap.

IMO IL isn't the same as the CL class feature like with spellcasters since it stacks with "all" classes when multiclassing accruing at +1/2 vice 1 something Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer and Wizard don't do in game normally so that makes ILs a shared class feature. In a gestalt game shared class features accrue at the faster rate:

From the SRD:
Class Features
A gestalt character gains the class features of both classes. A 1st-level gestalt rogue/cleric, for example, gets sneak attack +1d6, trapfinding, 1st-level cleric spells, and the ability to turn or rebuke undead. Class- and ability-based restrictions (such as arcane spell failure chance and a druidís prohibition on wearing metal armor) apply normally to a gestalt character, no matter what the other class is.

A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however.

Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class.
------------------------------
IMO Initiator levels are a shared class feature so they accrue at the faster rate of +1IL vice +1/2 IL in certain situations only under gestalt rules. The general consensus seems to be that they are more similar to spellcasting. I would agree if all classes did not provide at least +1/2 IL to a Martial Adept class using the standard multiclassing rules (Basically makes ILs shared class features which is an important distinction only in gestalt rules).

Now substitue 4 Cl spell casting classes in gestalt if ILs are the same as CLs we should get the same result and we don't:

Cleric -2, Druid -1, Cleric -1//Sorcerer -1, Druid -1, Wizard -2

Cleric Cl -3, Druid Cl-2, Sorcerer Cl- 1, Wizard Cl -2

ILs are different than CLs.

ronnyfire
2008-02-01, 06:49 PM
ranged fighters not allowed im guessing?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-01, 06:51 PM
ranged fighters not allowed im guessing?

They are allowed.

Frosty
2008-02-01, 06:52 PM
But why? this is called Melee masters.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-01, 07:14 PM
Still meleeing with a weapon.

Frosty
2008-02-01, 07:22 PM
I think we are not understanding each other. Ranged = not melee. He's asking if he can submit a build that focuses on ranged fighting. That is not this thread is for.

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-01, 07:28 PM
Just pointing this out..

Thri-Keen Rogue 10/Swashbuckler 3/RHD 4/LA 3//Warblade 20

Take Martial Study: Crusader's Strike, Martial Study: Stance of Chaos, Martial Study: Shadow Blade Technique, Martial Stance: Island of Blades using your bonus feats from Warblade.

Now use daggers and take the Shadowblade Feat.

Str + Dex + Int + Int with 4 different weapons.

Take Savvy Rogue and Dashing Outlaw.

Every single attack now deals -2 STR damage.

Attack Chain with Raging Mongoose:

+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+10/+10/+10/+5/+5/+5/+5

Each hit deals -2 STR damage, regardless of whether you sneak attack or not. Each hit deals +7d6 Sneak Attack damage, 6s are rerolled due to Stance of Chaos. Dual Stance allows you to have Island of Blades up permanently as well, which provides constant flanking. Just keep attacking. No need to rest other than for HP, which can be regained with Crusader's Strike anyway.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-01, 08:14 PM
I think we are not understanding each other. Ranged = not melee. He's asking if he can submit a build that focuses on ranged fighting. That is not this thread is for.

It's hard to make a build when everyone uses slightly different interpretations of the rules. OT is Mele Masters. Breaking it down to the basics that means BAB attacks with weapons or natural weapons.

Talya
2008-02-01, 08:19 PM
Just pointing this out..


I despise thri-keen. No matter how effective they are, I won't use one.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-01, 08:21 PM
Name: "Claws, Flame and Glaive of Immolation"
Build: Pixie Warlock 6/Ruathar 1/Sentinel of Bharrai 7/Hellfire Warlock 3//Barbarian 6/Uncanny Trickster 3/Incarnate 7/Warshaper 1 w/ Intermediate Fire Elemental Bloodline
Starting Ability Scores: STR 9-4 (5), DEX 12+8 (20), CON 11 (11), INT 10+6 (16), WIS 10+4 (14), CHA 18+6 (24)
Cheese Points: 1 (Warshaper Dip. Forgive me, though.. immunity to criticals is too good to pass up)
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 5 (A little weak though.)
Power Break: ECL 15-18 (Hellfire levels)

{table=head]ECL | Class | Class | BAB | Fort | Rflx | Will | Skill Pts | Feats | Special Abilities | Ability Bonuses | Spell-like Abilities
1 | Warlock | LA | +0 | +0 | +0 | +2 | 8+4*Int | Sacred Vow, Dodge, Weapon Finesse | Invocation Use, DR 10/cold iron | +2 Spot, Listen, Search | Eldritch Blast, Greater Invisibility (Su) at will
2 | Warlock | LA | +1 | +0 | +0 | +3 | 10+5*Int | | | +2 Tumble | Detect magic at will
3 | Warlock | LA | +2 | +1 | +1 | +3 | 12+6*Int | Sure Hand | DR 1/cold iron | |
4 | Warlock | LA | +3 | +1 | +1 | +4 | 14+7*Int | Assume Supernatural Ability (EB) | Decieve Item | +1 Strength |
5 | Warlock | Barbarian | +4 | +3 | +1 | +4 | 18+8*Int | | Pounce, Rage 1/day | |
6 | Bloodline | Uncanny Trickster | +4 | +3 | +3 | +4 | 26+9*Int | Vow of Obedience | Bonus+Favorite Trick | +1 Dexterity |
7 | Ruathar | Warlock | +5 | +4 | +5 | +6 | 30+10*Int | | Gift of the Elves, Word of Friendship | |
8 | Sentinel of Bharrai | Barbarian | +6 | +5 | +5 | +8 | 34+11*Int | | Uncanny Dodge | +1 Charisma | Pyrotechnics 1/day
9 | Sentinel of Bharrai | Incarnate | +7 | +7 | +5 | +10 | 38+12*Int | Empower Spell-like Ability | | | Detect Opposition at will
10 | Sentinel of Bharrai | Incarnate | +8 | +8 | +6 | +11 | 42+13*Int | | Chakra Bind (crown) | Fire Elemental affinity +2 |
11 | Sentinel of Bharrai | Incarnate | +9 | +8 | +7 | +12 | 46+14*Int | | Incarnum Radiance 1/day, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity +1 | |
12 | Bloodline | Warshaper | +9 | +10 | +7 | +12 | 48+15*Int | Mobility, Natural Spell | Morphic Immunities + weapons | +1 Charisma |
13 | Sentinel of Bharrai | Barbarian | +10 | +10 | +8 | +13 | 52+16*Int | | Trap Sense +1 | |
14 | Sentinel of Bharrai | Incarnate | +11 | +11 | +9 | +14 | 56+17*Int | | Chakra Bind (hands+feet) | +2 Listen |
15 | Sentinel of Bharrai | Barbarian | +12 | +12 | +9 | +14 | 60+18*Int | Quicken Spell-like Ability | Rage 2/day | |
16 | Hellfire Warlock | Barbarian | +13 | +12 | +9 | +16 | 64+19*Int | | Improved Uncanny Dodge | Resist Fire 10, +1 Charisma | Hellfire blast +2d6
17 | Hellfire Warlock | Incarnate | +14 | +12 | +9 | +17 | 66+20*Int | | Rapid Meldshaping 1/day, Hellfire Infusion | Resist Fire 10 | Hellfire blast +2d6
18 | Hellfire Warlock | Barbarian | +15 | +13 | +10 | +18 | 70+21*Int | Extra Invocation (???) | Trap Sense +2, Hellfire Shield | +1 Constitution | Hellfire blast +2d6
19 | Uncanny Trickster | Incarnate | +16 | +14 | +11 | +19 | 78+22*Int | | Bonus+Favorite Trick | | Hellfire blast +2d6
20 | Uncanny Trickster | Incarnate | +17 | +15 | +12 | +19 | 86+23*Int | Spring Attack | Bonus+Favorite Trick, Tricky Defense, Share Incarnum Radiance | +1 Charisma | Hellfire blast +2d6 [/table]

Offense: Can transform into a Dire Bear (31 Strength) an unlimited number of times a day. 11d6 eldritch blast damage + 10d6 Hellfire damage can be used with an Eldritch Glaive full attack (4 melee touch attacks) for a potential 84d6 resist-less damage.

A maximum of three times a day the Quicken and Empower SLA can be used to increase potential damage to a maximum of 210d6 resist-free damage in a single round if all touch attacks connect. This build also has Pounce. :smallwink:

Greater Chausible of Fell Power is assumed to be present in this build (it doesn't need it, but that's 2d6 less eldritch damage per blast, a significant if not crippling loss.) A suit of armor with Wild or Beastskin (preferred) property is recommended to cover the lower AC and lack of magic items in Dire Bear Form.

The granted Soulmelds also help in this because unlike normal magic equipment they remain active even when in a transformed state. Of special note is a crown chakra bound Crystal Helm, which makes this builds Eldritch Glaive attacks add a force descriptor, nullifying incorporeal, blinking and other concealment-style defenses.

The higher movement rate of the Bear also encourages the application of Greater Draconic Flight, which allows this build to keep flying with perfect manueverability, even after transforming. So yes, it's a Dire Bear that flies at twice the speed it runs (80' without magical enhancement.)

This build, like most Warlock builds, also has the potential to maximize the use of UMD, which is more of an unintentional side benefit rather than it's primary purpose. This fact should be mentioned at least, because it makes the overall build more flexible, since there's a magic item to cover almost any situation that comes up.

Defense: Immune to Critical hits and sneak attacks. SR 35. Greater Invisibility as a Supernatural ability. Can absorb as much as 7 points of ability damage per attack. Ursinal touch heals an amount equal to full undamaged HP total as lay on hands. Meldshaper level 9. Immediate action deals Hellfire damage to any successful attacker. Can use defending weapon property to boost AC even higher than is normally possible, since primary weapon is not used in attack at all. I managed to get this builds AC to 51 or so. Saving throws, especially Will Saves, are quite nice.

Weaknesses: Not immune to ability drain, Strength drain especially is an issue in pixie form. Has little in the way of physical defenses aside from Dex AC if located and targetted with cold iron, and therefore needs magic items to carry the load defending it from attack if spotted. Needs more skill points! HP from Hit Dice are not spectacular, but Barbarian levels help.


Complete!

I changed my entry to something I think is MUCH better and isn't ToB-centric. Sorry Astral Deva fans!

Thanks for help formatting this Fax_Celestis!

Swiftblu
2008-02-01, 08:23 PM
So what's the verdict on Savage Species? Can we just not use the progressions, or is the whole book considered 3.0?

Zincorium
2008-02-01, 09:08 PM
Something a bit different:

Name: Seige engine
Build: War troll Crusader 6/War hulk 10/Crusader +4//LA 6/Racial HD 12/Hulking Hurler 2
Starting Ability Scores: STR 36, DEX 16, CON 30, INT 10, WIS 12, CHA 16
Cheese Points: Unsure, war troll and war hulk are pretty cheesy by normal standards, but no actual cheese points.
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 18
Power Break: 18, everything after that is just to take up space

War troll: {Dazing blow, DR 5/adamantine, regeneration 9, SR 20}

1: Crusader 1//LA 1: Power attack{furious counterstrike, steely resolve 5}
2: Crusader 2//LA 2: {indomitable soul}
3: Crusader 3//LA 3: Cleave {zealous surge}
4: Crusader 4//LA 4: {steely resolve 10}
5: Crusader 5//LA 5:
6: Crusader 6//LA 6: Great cleave{smite 1/day}
7: War Hulk 1//Monstrous humanoid 1: {no time to think, Str +2}
8: War Hulk 2//Monstrous humanoid 2: {great swing, Str +2}
9: War Hulk 3//Monstrous humanoid 3: Weapon focus (rocks) {Mighty rock throwing, Str +2}
10: War Hulk 4//Monstrous humanoid 4: {Mighty Swing, Str +2}
11: War Hulk 5//Monstrous humanoid 5: {Str +2}
12: War Hulk 6//Monstrous humanoid 6: Combat reflexes{Sweeping boulder, Str +2}
13: War Hulk 7//Monstrous humanoid 7: {Str +2}
14: War Hulk 8//Monstrous humanoid 8: [toughness]{Massive sweeping boulder, Str +2}
15: War Hulk 9//Monstrous humanoid 9: Extra granted maneuver [toughness]{Str +2}
16: War Hulk 10//Monstrous humanoid 10: [toughness]{Massive Swing, Str +2}
17: Crusader 7//Monstrous humanoid 11:
18: Crusader 8//Monstrous humanoid 12: Point blank shot{steely resolve 15}
19: Crusader 9//Hulking Hurler 1: {catch weapon, really throw anything}
20: Crusader 10//hulking Hurler 2: [Die hard] {trick: Meteor Strike}

Offense:

Full BAB, extraordinarily high strength, at later levels can attack all squares around with each attack, boulder attack (2d8+3 x str vs. 4 squares), decent selection of maneuvers (with most granted).

Defense:

Very high natural armor (+14), DR vs. uncommon material, Regeneration that only is bypassed by acid, ability to wear heavy armor without loss of class features, reach, steely resolve.

Weaknesses:

Not playable before 18th level (build could be changed to reduce that to 12, however), No time to think, Relies on items for mobility.

Edit: War troll from monster manual 3, war hulk from miniatures handbook.

Duke of URL
2008-02-01, 09:29 PM
ranged fighters not allowed im guessing?

Go for it. The title is just "fluff".

Duke of URL
2008-02-01, 09:31 PM
So what's the verdict on Savage Species? Can we just not use the progressions, or is the whole book considered 3.0?

I don't have it, so I don't know. I see people use it in builds, so I assume it is 3.5 updated, though.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-02-01, 09:33 PM
I don't have it, so I don't know. I see people use it in builds, so I assume it is 3.5 updated, though.

it is mostly 3.5, but with some references to 3.0, like the wilderness lore (a.k.a. survival) skill

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-02-01, 10:10 PM
simple but effective build:

Barbarian4/Fighter2/Frenzied Berserker10/Frostrager3 // Swordsage 20

Feats are basically for getting into the prestige classes (Destructive Rage, Intimidating Rage, Frozen Berserker, Improved Unarmed Strike, etc), with flaws you may be able to squeeze Shock Tropper and Extra Rage in there. This is a build that does not epitomize the cheese-tastic Leap Attacking/Shock Tropper stack. This is more based on battlefield control (in a manner of speaking) with Setting Sun, and Iron Heart for straight Damage. In a Frenzy, he cannot use many Diamond Mind maneuvers (as concentration is not allowed) Tiger Claw for some Lion Totem RP Synergy.

Indon
2008-02-01, 10:28 PM
I give you, Fulbar the Redeemed.

Fulbar was a Troll who pursued his noble side (perhaps influenced by his Titan lineage), using his great strength to adventure for good. In his later career, he began to become a kind of leader as his great strength began to draw attention.


Name:Fulbar the Redeemed
Chaotic Good Troll with Major Titan Bloodline
Levels: Troll RHD 6/Lion Totem Barbarian 14//Troll LA 5/Titan Bloodline 3/War Hulk 10/Marshal 2
Level Playable: 7
Power Breakpoints: Level 12 (Lion Totem Pounce, ability to wield Titan-sized weapon)
Cheese: 2 (1 from Bloodline, 1 from using War Hulk in Gestalt)

Stats at 20 - Str:62 Dex:20 Con:36 Int:7 Wis:8 Cha:16
Stat breakdown-Str-62 +26 (14 base, +12 Troll, +1 Titan Bloodline, +20 War Hulk, +5 Levels, +6 Belt of Giant Strength, +4 Manual of Gainful Exercise)
Dex-20 +5 (14 base, +4 Troll, +2 Gloves of Dexterity)
Con-36 +13 (14 base, +12 Troll, +1 Titan Bloodline, +6 Amulet of Health, +3 Manual of Bodily Health)
Int-7 -2 (10 base, -4 Troll, +1 Titan Bloodline)
Wis-8 -1 (10 base, -2 Troll)
Cha-16 +3 (14 base, -4 Troll, +6 Cloak of Charisma)

Level breakdown-Troll 1 // Troll LA 1
Troll 2 // Troll LA 2
Troll 3 // Titan Major Bloodline 1
Troll 4 // Troll LA 3
Troll 5 // Troll LA 4
Troll 6 // Titan Major Bloodline 2
Lion Totem Barbarian 1 // Troll LA 5
Lion Totem Barbarian 2 // War Hulk 1
Lion Totem Barbarian 3 // War Hulk 2
Lion Totem Barbarian 4 // War Hulk 3
Lion Totem Barbarian 5 // War Hulk 4
Lion Totem Barbarian 6 // Titan Major Bloodline 3
Lion Totem Barbarian 7 // War Hulk 5
Lion Totem Barbarian 8 // War Hulk 6
Lion Totem Barbarian 9 // War Hulk 7
Lion Totem Barbarian 10 // War Hulk 8
Lion Totem Barbarian 11 // War Hulk 9
Lion Totem Barbarian 12 // War Hulk 10
Lion Totem Barbarian 13 // Marshal 1
Lion Totem Barbarian 14 // Marshal 2

Feat breakdown:
Feats:
1:Improved Initiative
2(Titan): Power Attack
3:Improved Bull Rush
6:Cleave
8(Titan): Improved Sunder
9:Great Cleave
12: Weapon Focus (Warhammer)
15: Brutal Strike
18: Shock Trooper

Auras: Minor - Motivate Strength (+3 to Strength checks and Strength skills)
Major - Motivate Ardor (+1 to melee attack)

Item breakdown:
Items: +6 Belt of Giant Strength (36,000)
+4 Manual of Gainful Exercise (110,000)
+2 Gloves of Dexterity (4,000)
+6 Amulet of Health (36,000)
+3 Manual of Bodily Health (82,500)
+6 Cloak of Charisma (36,000)

+5 (Gargantuan) Adamantine Warhammer of Speed (roughly 132,000)
+5 (Large) Mithral Breastplate (29,200)

Attack: +50 with his Warhammer (Dealing 4D8 + 44 damage, +4 from raging)
+50/+50/+45/+40/+35 Full attack (+3 from raging)
+52/+52/+47/+42/+37 Full attack charge using Lion Totem Barbarian pounce

Health: 260 + 6D8 + 14D12 + 9 (+60 from raging)
AC: 10+10+5+7-1 (Base+Armor+Dex+Natural w/Titan Bloodline enhancements-Size) (-2 from raging)
SR: 22
DR: 5/Lawful (Titan Bloodline DR, not barbarian - has Lion's Roar alternate class feature instead)


His strengths are that he deals strong damage per attack, has (Non-cheesily) Pounce and Great Cleave, good health and hit dice, and the ability to make pretty much any enemy shaken for 10 minutes (an ability which he can use three times a day, so he could, if he chose, use it more than once just make one set of enemies panicked for 10 minutes) with his Lion's Roar, he has the obvious Troll advantage of regeneration, and decent DR and SR from his Titan lineage.

For cool points, he also wields a really big warhammer 2-handed, again courtesy of his Titan blood.

His weaknesses is that he has to rely on magical items for mobility against anything he can't just throw boulders at, and his saves are somewhat low.

Edit: Now with rage stats.

Zincorium
2008-02-01, 10:32 PM
I give you, Fulbar the Redeemed.

Fulbar was a Troll who pursued his noble side (perhaps influenced by his Titan lineage), using his great strength to adventure for good. In his later career, he began to become a kind of leader as his great strength began to draw attention.

His strengths are obvious. His weaknesses is that he has to rely on magical items for mobility against anything he can't just throw boulders at, and his saves are somewhat low.

Edit: Note the stats don't count benefits from his rage.

So, now there are two troll warhulks?

Indon
2008-02-01, 10:43 PM
So, now there are two troll warhulks?

One's a wartroll (way higher LA/RHD), the other's a standard troll with significant barbarian levels.

(I think mine's better, obviously :P)

Pyroconstruct
2008-02-02, 12:46 AM
Name: "Frankenninja's Monster"
Build:
Total: Awakened Flesh Golem HD 9/Swordsage 6/Warblade 5 // LA 6/Fighter 4/Crusader 5/Master of Nine 5

Level // Level
Flesh Golem HD 1 // Flesh Golem LA 1 Combat Expertise
Flesh Golem HD 2 // Flesh Golem LA 2
Flesh Golem HD 3 // Flesh Golem LA 3 Improved Trip
Flesh Golem HD 4 // Flesh Golem LA 4
Flesh Golem HD 5 // Flesh Golem LA 5
Flesh Golem HD 6 // Flesh Golem LA 6 Combat Reflexes (Retrained to Improved Toughness at 15th level)
Flesh Golem HD 7 // Fighter 1 Improved Initiative
Flesh Golem HD 8 // Fighter 2 Blind-Fight
Flesh Golem HD 9 // Crusader 1 Extra Granted Manuever
Swordsage 1 // Crusader 2
Swordsage 2 // Fighter 3
Warblade 1 // Crusader 3 Mage-Slayer
Warblade 2 // Fighter 4 Dodge
Sworsdage 3 // Crusader 4
Warblade 3 // Crusader 5 Combat Reflexes, Adaptive Style
Swordsage 4 // Master of Nine 1
Warblade 4 // Master of Nine 2
Swordsage 5 // Master of Nine 3 Robilarís Gambit
Warblade 5 // Master of Nine 4
Swordsage 6 // Master of Nine 5


Manuevers: 9th: Foehammer (CR), Battle Leaderís Charge (CR), White Raven Tactics (CR), Leading the Charge (Stance)
10th: Countercharge (SS), Sudden Leap (SS), Mind over Body (SS), Action before Thought (SS), Mountain Hammer (SS), Shadow Jaunt (SH), Flameís Blessing (Stance), Thicket of Blades (Stance)
11th: Rabid Wolf Strike (SS), Giant Killing Stance (Stance)
12th:: Emerald Razor (WB), Wall of Blades (WB), Iron Heart Surge (WB), Hunterís Sense (stance), Divine Surge (CR)
13th: Lightning Recovery (WB), Retrain Foehammer to Flanking Manuever (CR), Tactics of the Wolf (Stance)
14th: Searing Charge (SS)
15th: Disrupting Blow (WB), Radiant Charge (CR)
16th: Scorpion Parry (CR), Moment of Alacrity (CR), Leaping Flame (SS), Retrain Rabid Wolf Strike to Pouncing Charge (SS)
17th: Manticore Parry (CR), Retrain Disrupting Blow to Order Forged from Chaos (WB), Aura of Perfect Order (stance), Press the Advantage (stance)
18th: Rallying Strike (CR), Iron Heart Endurance (CR), Crushing Vice (SS), Hearing the Air (stance)
19th: Quicksilver Motion (CR), Clarion Call (WB) 7th, Prey on the Weak (stance) 7th
20th: White Raven Hammer (CR), Adamantine Hurricane (CR), retrain Mountain Hammer to Shadow Blink (SS), Avalanche of Blades (SS)


Starting Ability Scores: STR 27, DEX 14, CON -, INT 13, WIS 8, CHA 1
Cheese Points: 0
Minimum Playable Level: ECL 9 (1 if your GM lets you use an ability progression until you're done with RHD/LA).
Power Break: 10th is important, due to getting Thicket of Blades, but the character is quite fine at 9th.

Offense:

Moves in using martial maneuvers to get close, and with a Glaive and Slam has a 20 foot radius of pain with Thicket of Blades, Improved Trip, large size, a high strength, Mage Slayer, and up to 8th level maneuvers to stop people from getting away and then unleash a torrent of pain.

He literally can't run out of manuevers, even if he goes through 3 per round, so he can keep on blowing through high-powered attacks over and over. Highlights include no-save stuns from White Raven Hammer, great battlefield support from Clarion Call, Order Forged from Chaos, mobility from Shadow Blink and Quicksilver Motion, and a 20-foot radius of death from Adamantine Hurricane.

Defense: Immunity to almost everything from being a Flesh Golem. No crits or sneak attacks, and only a very small number of spells can hurt him, and there's a very good chance of spellcasters having either no offense at all or sharply limited options against him. Melee characters have to contend with DR/adamantine, and many melee will be unable to get through Thicket of Blades/Improved Trip by any means at all. Even if they make it past that, Robilar's Gambit makes it a dangerous proposition to attack Frankenninja.

On top of that, Frankenninja has plenty of martial manuevers dedicated to defense - he can Parry as a swift action every round, use Concentration (easily boosted through the roof) in place of Fortitude and Reflex saves for the rare ones he's not immune to, and can also use Devoted Spirit strikes and Iron Heart Endurance to provide a limited amount of healing for himself.

Furthermore, since he absorbs lightning damage, if he's in a party with an arcanist, he can probably persuade them to keep him topped up by lobbing electricity AE's into his field of pain, healing him and damaging enemies at the same time. After all, with his setup, he can do a great job of blocking melee from getting at friendly casters, so he's likely to be popular with the party wizard.

Weaknesses: Only real weakness is mediocre HP total, but as mentioned under "Defense" he has a lot of ways to compensate, and being flat-out immune to most offensive magic and hard to melee helps deal with this. However, a melee character with even more reach than him could cause him problems.

The other drawback is that he's immune to buff spells as well as offense. He can do fine without buffs for the most part, but it could occasionally be annoying (for example, not being able to benefit from movement spells that allow for SR). It's not too hard to work around, though, just irritating.

Berserking is potentially a party-killer, if careless. Frankenninja has a Golem berserk, not a Barbarian one, so other than needing to attack the nearest living creature he can still fight intelligently. Battles probably won't last long enough for this to come up too often, but party would need to be careful about this one. Still, work-around-able with some thought.

Equipment: For the most part, Frankenninja needs the same gear as any other melee fighter, although his Shadow Hand moves mean he doesn't have the same mid-level mobility problems and can thus prioritize differently. The things he'd want that aren't typical are:

A magic item that does continuous Electricity damage to him (thus breaking any Slow effects he gets from fire or cold, and healing him a tad to boot). For example, Energy Substitution (Electricity) Continuous-Effect Melf's Acid Arrow (2x3x8000 = 48,000 for, effectively, Fast Healing 2 and immunity to the only spells that did anything to him in the first place besides Instant Conjuration effects).

Speaking of Instant Conjuration effects, depending on how prevalent Orbs are in the campaign setting, a few items specifically to counter such spells might be handy (for example, elemental resistance, or deflection effects). Any spellcaster who knows the Orb line is likely to try them on Frankenninja. Can get expensive depending on how far you go, but being able to laugh at Batman is worth it.

Thinker
2008-02-02, 02:25 AM
A bear with the strength of two bears
Orc
Scout 1/Ranger 1/Scout +15/Ranger +3//Barbarian 4/Fighter 1/Stalker of Kharash 2/Bear Warrior 10/Warshaper 3

Stats at 20: Str: 27 Dex: 12 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Cha: 6
Level Playable: 4
Power Breakpoints:
Cheese Points: 1 (flaw)

Abilities

Str 18 + 4 Orc + 5 Levels + 8 Enhancement = 35
Dex 12 + 4 Enhancement = 16
Con 12 + 6 Enhancement = 18
Int 12 - 2 Orc = 10
Wis 8 - 2 Orc + 2 Enhancement = 8
Cha 8 - 2 Orc = 6


Levels:

{table=head]ECL|Left Class|Right Class|Special|Feat
1|Scout 1|Barbarian 1|Skirmish (+1d6), Trapfinding, Lion Totem (Pounce), Rage 1/day|Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Favored of the Companions
2|Ranger 1|Barbarian 2|Favored Enemy (Constructs), Wild Empathy, Uncanny Dodge|Track, Nymph's Kiss
3|Scout 2|Barbarian 3|Battle Fortitude +1, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Trap Sense +1|Alertness
4|Scout 3|Barbarian 4|Fast Movement + 10, Skirmish (+1d6, +1AC), Trackless Step, Rage 2/day| Righteous Wrath
5|Scout 4|Fighter 1|--|Improved Initiative, Power Attack
6|Scout 5|Stalker of Kharash 1|Evasion, Skirmish (+2d6, +1AC), Scent of Evil|Swift Hunter, Nemesis (Constructs)
7|Scout 6|Stalker of Kharash 2|Flawless Stride, Skirmish (+2d6, +2 AC), Favored Enemy (Evil)|--
8|Scout 7|Bear Warrior 1|Bear from (black)|Nemesis (Evil)
9|Scout 8|Bear Warrior 2|Skirmish (+3d6, +2 AC), Camouflage|Quick Reconnoiter, Leap Attack
10|Scout 9|Bear Warrior 3|Favored Enemy (Elemental), Scent|Nemesis (Elemental)
11|Scout 10|Bear Warrior 4|Blindsense 30 ft, Skirmish (+3d6, +3 AC)|--
12|Scout 11|Bear Warrior 5|Battle Fortitude +2, Fast Movement +20, Bear Form (Brown)|Improved Bull Rush, Vow of Purity
13|Scout 12|Bear Warrior 6|Bonus Feat, Skirmish (+4d6, +3AC)|--
14|Scout 13|Bear Warrior 7|Rage +1/day|Vow of Abstinence
15|Scout 14|Bear Warrior 8|Hide in Plain Site, Skirmish (+4d6, +4AC), Favored Enemy (Oozes)|Favored Power Attack
16|Scout 15|Bear Warrior 9|--|Vow of Obedience
17|Scout 16|Bear Warrior 10|Bear Form (Dire)|Danger Sense
18|Ranger 2|Warshaper 1|Morphic Immunities, Morphic Weapons|Two Weapon Fighting, Shock Trooper, Nemesis (Oozes)
19|Ranger 3|Warshaper 2|Skirmish (+5d6, +5 AC), Morphic Body|Endurance
20|Ranger 4|Warshaper 3|Distracting Attack, Favored Enemy (Undead), Morphic Reach|Nemesis (Undead)
[/table]


Combat Stats:

In Bear form:
+24 Strength
+2 Dexterity
+12 Con
All below stats are for in bear form.

Initiative: +10 = 4 Dex + 4 Improved Initiative + 2 Battle Fortitude
HP: 319 = 4d12 + 1d10 + 2d8 + 10d12 + 3d8 + 200
AC: 36 = 10 + 4 dex + 10 exalted + 3 deflection + 9 natural armor - 1 size
Attack: +48 = 20 BAB + 24 Strength + 5 Enhancement Bonus - 1 size
Claw +48 (2d6+29)
Bite +43 (3d8+17)
Grapple: +52
DR = 10/evil

On a charge the bear will power attack for full and tank his AC. He will get a full-attack and get to grapple on every attack. He only attacks things that are his favored enemy. Vow of poverty was taken because of the lack of gear while in bear form. This is at a 10-ft reach thanks to the Warshaper abilities.
Claw 1: +48 attack (2d6+89+5d6) [113]
Claw 2: +48 attack (2d6+89+5d6) [113]
Bite: +43 attack (3d8+77+5d6) [107]
AC: 21


References:
Scout is from Complete Adventurer
Stalker of Kharash is from the Book of Exalted Deeds
Bear Warrior is from Complete Warrior
Warshaper is from Complete Warrior

Mostly completed, may update later.

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-02, 05:18 AM
I despise thri-keen. No matter how effective they are, I won't use one.

That doesn't change the fact that it pretty effectively matches the OP's specifications. It doesn't need to recharge anything, except HP. Which that can even be negated with a ring of regeneration. It kills an arbitrary number very efficiently. In fact, based on mook-level, it can easily kill everyone within it's (admittedly small) reach in one round. I might do a full stat out, eventually. Maybe. I dunno.


I don't have it, so I don't know. I see people use it in builds, so I assume it is 3.5 updated, though.

I can use Savage Species?! Yay! Insectile Thri-keen bastard-child coming up. :smallbiggrin:

Thri-Keen

Level // Level
{table="head"]Level# | Class | Class | Substitutions
1 | RHD | Swordsage |
2 | RHD | Swordsage |
3 | LA | Swordsage |
4 | LA | Swordsage |
5 | LA | Swordsage |
6 | LA | Swordsage |
7 | LA | Swordsage |
8 | Swashbuckler | Swordsage |
9 | Rogue | Swordsage | Penetrating Strike for Trap Sense
10 | Rogue | Swordsage | Spell Reflection for Evasion
11 | Rogue | Swordsage |
12 | Rogue | Swordsage |
13 | Rogue | Swordsage |
14 | Rogue | Swordsage |
15 | Rogue | Swordsage |
16 | Rogue | Swordsage |
17 | Rogue | Swordsage |
18 | Rogue | Swordsage |
19 | Swashbuckler | Swordsage |
20 | Swashbuckler | Swordsage | [/table]

End BAB: 18/13/8/3
Base Ability Scores(After Levels and Racials):
{table="head]Name | Score | Modifier
STR | 18 | +4
DEX | 34 | +12
CON | 8 | -1
INT | 32 | +11
WIS | 18 | +4
CHA | 4 | -3[/table]

HP: 8 + 16d8 + 3d10 + 220 = 307 (Averaged)

Saves: Fortitude +12/+31/+25

Feats:
1: Multiweapon Fighting
3: Improved Multiweapon Fighting
6: Shadowblade
9: Martial Study: Iron Heart Surge
12: Exotic Armor Proficiency: Gnome Twist Cloth
15: Faeries Mysteries Initiate
18: Savvy Rogue
Deflect Arrows
[Bonus]Weapon Finesse

Initiative: 1d20+27

AC: 10 + 12 Dex + 7 Natural Armor + 4 Wis + 6 Armor.
Total: 39

Attacks:
Dagger: +31/+26/+21/+16 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)

Maneuvers:
[B]Warblade
3- Iron Heart Surge(Feat)

Swordsage
Maneuvers:
1- Clinging Shadow Strike, Wolf Fang Strike, Counter Charge
2- Drain Vitality, Rapid Wolf Strike, Cloak of Deception
3- Shadow Garrote, Flesh Ripper, Devastating Throw
4- Hand of Death, Obscuring Shadow Veil, Comet Throw
5- Soaring Throw, Dancing Mongoose, Pouncing Charge
6- Ballista Throw, Shadow Noose, Stalker in the Night
7- Hydra Slaying Strike, Death in the Dark, Shadow Blink
8- Raging Mongoose, One With Shadow
9- Five-Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike, Time Stands Still

Stances:
1- Island of Blades, Stonefoot Stance
3- Assassin's Stance
5- Step of the Dancing Moth
7- Prey on the Weak
9- Ghostly Defense


Skills That Matter:
Hide +35
Move Silently +35

Items:
Manual of INT +5
Manual of DEX +4
Gloves of DEX +6
Third of Conceal and INT +6
Belt of Battle and STR +6
Amulet of Nat Armor+2 and WIS +6
Cloak of Displacement and Resistance +5
+2 Eager Daggers x 8
Ring of Growth

Item Cost
760000 - 137500 - 110000 - 36000 - 36000 - 36000 - 25000 - 36000 - 25000 - 24000 - (18000 x 8) - 18000 - 12000 - 120000 Gold Left: 500

Weaknesses: Low Fortitude Save. Low Attack Bonus.
Strengths: Insanity + 1 damage. Can perform 16 attacks two turns in a row, reliably.

playswithfire
2008-02-02, 08:11 AM
I can use Savage Species?! Yay! Insectile Thri-keen bastard-child coming up. :smallbiggrin:

Dagger: +31/+26/+21/+16 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)
Dagger: +31/+26 (1d4+5d6+40+2 STR)



I've seen other builds that do this, but how exactly do you have 8 arms? The insectile template, at least in my version of Savage species says:
Attacks: Despite having six arms, insectile creatures gain no additional attacks.
Which leads me to believe that the extra arms are just cosmetic

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-02, 08:14 AM
Attacks: Despite having six arms, insectile creatures gain no additional attacks.
Which leads me to believe that the extra arms are just cosmetic

No extra natural attacks, but it's extra arms. I can hold crap in my arms, even if I can't claw you with them. And ya, King of Smack does the same attack method with much better damage capability.

playswithfire
2008-02-02, 08:52 AM
Ah; of course; clearly I shouldn't post before 9 in the morning. Not thinking clearly. Thanks for the clarification.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-02-03, 04:05 PM
I have another Entry:

Name: Antarnis
Build: Paladin of Freedom (Comp. Warrior Variant) 5/ Horselord Barbarian 1/Ranger (Comp. Warrior Variant) 3/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10//Fighter 4/Ranger Knight of Furondity 1/Wild Plains Outrider 3/Horselord Barbarian 11/ Ranger (Comp. Warrior Variant) 1
Cheese Points: 3 (Ranger Knight of Furondity Dip, Beastmaster Dip, AC-boosting item dependnce)
Starting Ability Scores: Str. 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10


PoF=Paladin of Freedom
R=Ranger
WBFR=Wilderness Bonus Feat Rogue
WPO=Wild Plains Outrider
HO=Halfling Outrider
RKoF=Ranger Knight of Furondity
F=Fighter
B=Beastmaster

Strongheart Halfling [Devoted Tracker] {Strongheart Halfling traits}

PoF 1//R 1: Mounted Combat [Track] {Detect Evil, Aura of Good, Favored Enemy, Wild Emapathy, Smite Evil 1/day)
PoF 2//F 1 [Ride-By Attack] {Divine Grace, Lay on Hands}
PoF 3//F 2: Trample [Spirited Charge] {Aura of Resolve, Divine Health}
PoF 4//F 3 {Turn Undead, Str +1}
PoF 5//F 4 [Two-Weapon Fighting] {Special Mount}
WBFR 1//RKoF 1: Skill Focus (Handle Animal) [Mounted Archery] {Mounted Track, Trapfinding}
R 2//WPO 1 [Rapid Shot] {Special Mount Bonus +1, Ride Bonus +1, Wild Plains Stalker}
R 3//WPO 2 [Endurance] {Special Mount Bonus +2, Ride Bonus +2, Wild Plains Swiftness, Str +1}
R 4//WPO 3: Natural Bond {Animal Companion, Special Mount Bonus +3, Ride Bonus +3, Wild Plains Offensive}
B 1//WBFR 2 [Tremendous Charge] {Animal Companion +4, Evasion}
HO 1//WBFR 3 [Alertness] {Mount, Ride Bonus +4, Trap Sense +1, AC Bonus}
HO 2//WBFR 4: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting [Improved Critical (lance)] {Uncanny Dodge, Defensive Riding, Ride Bonus +5, Dex +1}
HO 3//WBFR 5 {Unbroken Charge, Ride Bonus +6}
HO 4//WBFR 6 [Greater Two-Weapon Fighting] {Trap Sense +2, Ride Bonus +7, Stand on Mount}
HO 5//WBFR 7: Weapon Focus (Lance) {Leap from the Saddle, Ride Bonus +8}
HO 6//WBFR 8 [Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting] {Improved Uncanny Dodge, Ride Bonus +9, Dex +1}
HO 7//WBFR 9 {Trap Sense +3, Ride Bonus +10, Improved Evasion}
HO 8//WBFR 10: Two-Weapon Defense [Improved Initiative] {Slippery Mind, Ride Bonus +11, Full Mounted Attack
HO 9//WBFR 11 {Ride Bonus +12}
HO 10//WBFR 12 [Improved Two-Weapon Defense] {Ride Bonus +13, Trap Sense +4, Quick Turn, Con +1}
Offense:
Pretty straight forward: Charge in and full attack with 2 lances, Ride-By Attack combined with Quick turn to get out of combat, so that he can charge again in the next round.

Defense:
His Armor Class is 14 without items, so he prefers to stay mounted, to boost it to 19 without items.

Weaknesses:
His biggest weakness is his reliance on his mount to be effective, but it is not that much of a problem, considering its survivability.


Antarnis' Mount: Gold Dragon Wyrmling (with the benefits of a level 24 special mount and level 19 animal companion)

Equipment:
2 +1 Ghost Touch Collision Small Lances (100,000gp each)
+10 Mithril Full-Plate (110,500gp)
Amulet of Natural Armor +5 (50,000gp)
Ring of Protection +5 (50,000gp)
Ring of Freedom of Movement (40,000gp)
Cloak of Resistance +5 (25,000gp)
Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36,000gp)
Heward's Handy Haversack (2,000gp)
Manual of Gainful Exercise (used)(137,000gp)

Total Money Spent: 650,500gp

Duke of URL
2008-02-04, 08:13 AM
First post updated with all (semi-) complete entries.

Just over a day left to get entries in and edited!

Zincorium
2008-02-04, 10:17 AM
Out of curiosity, is there actually going to be a test of some sort at the end, either simulated combat or a grand melee?

Otherwise it seems very hard to actually compare characters.

Duke of URL
2008-02-04, 10:27 AM
I was just planning on opening it to a vote -- subjective, I know, but I'm in no mind to run an arena or anything.

I'll likely post multiple voting categories as well, some more lighthearted than others.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-04, 03:57 PM
First post updated with all (semi-) complete entries.

Just over a day left to get entries in and edited!

I updated my entry, so my previous monster (Archangel of the Shadowsun) is gone and replaced with "Claws, Flame and Glaive of Immolation." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3875252&postcount=59) Thanks, and thanks for the fun contest!

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-04, 04:09 PM
First post updated with all (semi-) complete entries.

Mines not up there!

Jerk. :smalltongue:

Duke of URL
2008-02-05, 07:05 AM
Mines not up there!

That's strange... I could have sworn I added it. I'll fix that now. Anyone else missing?

Edit: Ah, I see the problem... I had added the link, but had put no text in there. Fixed.

Duke of URL
2008-02-05, 02:58 PM
Okay, by the time I finish writing this, it will be noon PST, at least by my clock.


ENTRIES ARE NOW CLOSED, PLEASE DO NOT EDIT ENTRIES AFTER THIS POINT

I have, as the benevolent dictator that I am, decided to allow for voting in multiple categories. These categories are:
Best overall entry -- the entry that best accomplishes the original challenge goals, see post #1 for details
The "Energizer Bunny" Award -- the entry that is most capable of "going and going and going" without running out of abilities (or HP!)
The "Huh?" Award -- for the most unusual combatant
The "Party Animal" Award -- the entry you would most like to play or otherwise have in your party
The "Gouda" Award -- the entry most likely to have your DM (or you, if you're the DM) label as a "munchkin" build and disallow

Submitted Entries: "Blender" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3873060&postcount=2)
"Shadowfist" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3873766&postcount=31)
"Return Fire" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3873836&postcount=32)
"Swift Sickle Hunter" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3873842&postcount=33)
"DDR (Dervish Dance Rend)" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3873601&postcount=23)
"Unarmed Whirlwind of Doom" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3874118&postcount=37)
"Claws, Flame and Glaive of Immolation" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3875252&postcount=59)
"Seige Engine" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3875390&postcount=61)
"Fulbar the Redeemed" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3875666&postcount=66)
"Frankenninja's Monster" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3876133&postcount=69)
"A Bear With The Strength Of Two Bears" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3876381&postcount=70)
"Thri-Keen" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3876660&postcount=71)
"Antarnis" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3883319&postcount=75)


Please vote in-thread. You need not provide a vote in all categories. Voting ends noon PST on Friday, Feb. 8, 2008.

Aspiring avatarists are encouraged to submit "award" art, as I have the artistic ability of an epileptic elephant.

_Puppetmaster_
2008-02-05, 09:33 PM
here are my votes:

Gouda: Antarnis

Human Paragon 3
2008-02-06, 02:47 PM
Best overall entry -- Frankenninja's Monster
The "Huh?" Award -- Unarmed Whirlwind of Doom
The "Party Animal" Award -- The Blender

ZeroNumerous
2008-02-06, 03:59 PM
Best overall entry: Frankenninja's Monster

The "Energizer Bunny" Award: Frankenninja's Monster

The "Huh?" Award: The Bear with the Strength of Two Bears. "Attack him? No, I'm gonna make a strength check to tear off his arms."

The "Party Animal" Award: Bear with the Strength of Two Bears

The "Gouda" Award: Insectile Thri-Keen. It's impossible to explain with a backstory, but RAW legal. AKA: Cheese.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-06, 07:06 PM
Best overall entry -- the entry that best accomplishes the original challenge goals, see post #1 for details

"Claws, Flame and Glaive of Immolation" - I hope I'm allowed to vote for myself... :smallconfused:


The "Energizer Bunny" Award -- the entry that is most capable of "going and going and going" without running out of abilities (or HP!)

"Frankenninja" - It even resembles the Energizer bunny in it's core functioning. :smallwink:


The "Huh?" Award -- for the most unusual combatant

"Thri-Keen" - All those swordsage levels, and no Adaptive Style feat? :smallamused:


The "Party Animal" Award -- the entry you would most like to play or otherwise have in your party

"Swift Sickle Hunter" - I wanna play one! :smallsmile:


The "Gouda" Award -- the entry most likely to have your DM (or you, if you're the DM) label as a "munchkin" build and disallow

"Antarnis" - Halfling riding a baby gold dragon? Priceless! :smallbiggrin:

Chronos
2008-02-06, 07:29 PM
Huh? award: Unarmed whirlwind of Doom. Antropomorphic octopodes always deserve a "huh?".

Frosty
2008-02-06, 07:31 PM
The "Energizer Bunny" Award -- the entry that is most capable of "going and going and going" without running out of abilities (or HP!)

"Claws, Flame and Glaive of Immolation"

Warlock types can always go on and on and on...

Pyroconstruct
2008-02-06, 10:19 PM
I'm not going to vote for Best Overall or Energizer Bunny, since I'd be too tempted to vote for myself.

Huh? A Bear with the Strength of Two Bears. Really, the name is the biggest draw but it's also... OK you know what, I just like the name.

Party Animal: Fulbar the Redeemed.

Gouda: Thri-kreen. Insectile Thri-Kreen huh? Actually, I think DDR is the worse abuse (purely for the use of Adaptation Kukris to get Lightning Mace style on high-crit-range weaponry) but the Thri-kreen really reeks of cheese.

Duke of URL
2008-02-07, 02:46 PM
(Give or take a few minutes...) 24 hour remaining warning/bump

Draz74
2008-02-08, 01:57 AM
Best overall entry -- the entry that best accomplishes the original challenge goals, see post #1 for details
The "Energizer Bunny" Award -- the entry that is most capable of "going and going and going" without running out of abilities (or HP!)
The "Huh?" Award -- for the most unusual combatant
The "Party Animal" Award -- the entry you would most like to play or otherwise have in your party
The "Gouda" Award -- the entry most likely to have your DM (or you, if you're the DM) label as a "munchkin" build and disallow

Best Overall: Swift Sickle Hunter

Energizer Bunny: Antarnis

"Huh?": Unarmed Whirlwind of Doom

Party Animal: Claws, Flame and Glaive of Immolation

Gouda: Shadowfist (isn't Shadow Sun Ninja a dual-progression?)

Hunter Noventa
2008-02-08, 08:47 AM
Gouda: Shadowfist (isn't Shadow Sun Ninja a dual-progression?)

Considering that the exact same rules applied to the other challenge, I'm pretty sure it's mainly referring to Mystic Theurge and company

Duke of URL
2008-02-08, 08:49 AM
I'm thinking I need a FAQ added to post #1 in the future... :smalleek:

Frosty
2008-02-08, 11:48 AM
Thanks for the vote Draz! :smallcool:

Duke of URL
2008-02-08, 12:59 PM
2-ish hours remaining bump!

Roderick_BR
2008-02-08, 01:39 PM
You know what, I'm thinking backwards, you're right on that point, even if it means that a Warblade20//Swordsage20 would have an IL of 30 for both classes...

But the manuvers are still tracked and recovered seperately, even in Gestalt, which is the real point i was trying to make.
Hmm. do classes from "one side" of the gestalt affects the initiatior level of the other? I understand that a warblade 10/swordsage10 // crusader 20 would have an IL 15 for warblade, IL 15 for swordsage, and 20 for crusader, since warblade and swordsage's levels doesn't affect the crusader's IL, and vice-versa.

Hmmm... I think a fighter/warblade would look really cool.

Blue Paladin
2008-02-08, 02:13 PM
I'm having trouble following the Frankenninja... Shouldn't all those Crusader maneuvers have the whole "random" element to which ones are granted at any given time? I mean, by level 20, he's got 12 Crusader maneuvers known (and depending on how he allocates the extras from Mo9, possibly more than 6 maneuvers ready), but still only has 3 granted. Or 4... I forget. I don't have my spreadsheet here at the moment.

And I believe he's missing two Crusader maneuvers in the first place (at level 9 he should start with 5 known, 5 ready (2 granted)). Also he doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike, so can't pick up Master of Nine...

Sorry to be so negative, but I just put the build mentally through the same double-checking process I very recently went through for my Infinite Crusader.

Duke of URL
2008-02-08, 03:03 PM
VOTING IS NOW CLOSED... RESULTS

Actually, I was hoping for more participation here... but, we go with the votes received...


BEST OVERALL ENTRY (CHALLENGE WINNER): "Frankenninja's Monster" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3876133&postcount=69) (2 votes out of 4 total)

ENERGIZER BUNNY AWARD: "Frankenninja's Monster" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3876133&postcount=69) (2 votes out of 4 total)

HUH? AWARD: "Unarmed Whirlwind of Doom" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3874118&postcount=37) (3 votes out of 6 total)

PARTY ANIMAL AWARD: No entry received more than one vote (5 votes total)

GOUDA AWARD: "Thri-Keen" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3876660&postcount=71) in tiebreaker over "Antarnis" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3883319&postcount=75) (2 votes each out of 5 total)

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-08, 04:16 PM
I'm having trouble following the Frankenninja... Shouldn't all those Crusader maneuvers have the whole "random" element to which ones are granted at any given time? I mean, by level 20, he's got 12 Crusader maneuvers known (and depending on how he allocates the extras from Mo9, possibly more than 6 maneuvers ready), but still only has 3 granted. Or 4... I forget. I don't have my spreadsheet here at the moment.

And I believe he's missing two Crusader maneuvers in the first place (at level 9 he should start with 5 known, 5 ready (2 granted)). Also he doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike, so can't pick up Master of Nine...

Sorry to be so negative, but I just put the build mentally through the same double-checking process I very recently went through for my Infinite Crusader.

I dunno on the rest (Crusaders always confuse me), but I think Frankenninja is getting Improved Unarmed Strike from using the Unarmed Swordsage variant, the one that gives Unarmed Strike as a Monk.

Pyroconstruct
2008-02-08, 04:28 PM
I'm having trouble following the Frankenninja... Shouldn't all those Crusader maneuvers have the whole "random" element to which ones are granted at any given time? I mean, by level 20, he's got 12 Crusader maneuvers known (and depending on how he allocates the extras from Mo9, possibly more than 6 maneuvers ready), but still only has 3 granted. Or 4... I forget. I don't have my spreadsheet here at the moment.

And I believe he's missing two Crusader maneuvers in the first place (at level 9 he should start with 5 known, 5 ready (2 granted)). Also he doesn't have Improved Unarmed Strike, so can't pick up Master of Nine...

Sorry to be so negative, but I just put the build mentally through the same double-checking process I very recently went through for my Infinite Crusader.

Frankenninja's Monster allocates all of his "extra manuever readied" from Master of Nine to Crusader, yes. If you check ToB, at the start of the PrCs section it tells you that PrCs which give extra readied manuevers also give Crusaders extra granted manuevers. He has 2 base manuevers granted, +1 from Extra Granted Manuever, + I forgot exactly how many from Master of Nine extra. He'll have the majority of his manuevers granted, and "reset" every third round.

You're right on the 2 missing Crusader manuevers. Brain fart, I guess. I was thinking Granted, not Known.

For some reason I thought that having natural weapons qualified you for feats requiring Imp. Unarmed Strike, but I can't find that rule again. Maybe it was 3.0. If not, Unarmed Swordsage fixes this as mentioned - he gets armor proficiency from Crusader anyways.

Tokiko Mima
2008-02-08, 05:34 PM
Congratulations to the winners! Those were some pretty awesome builds! :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2008-02-08, 05:36 PM
Yes gratz! Tokiko, feel free to use my build anytime ^_^

_Puppetmaster_
2008-02-13, 10:38 AM
do we have any trophies that we can put in our sigs?