[spoiler] I think I see Parson's Win

[Liminaut]

GK is looking suddenly winnable.

In the tunnels Sizemore has turned it into a few passages with a lot of dead ends. This is going to be perfect for a Gobwins + weaker golems to hold the door, together with the nastier golems lead by Sizemore to pick off units hit-and-run. Munch.

In the air battle of FAQ, Jillian may be getting overconfident. Stanley has his own leadership bonus plus artifact bonus plus a whole boatload of dragons. So let's say Jillian kills Stanley but takes a lot of casualties, leaving the bulk of the dragons ... with the Foolamancer as a leader unit(!).

Let's say when Stanley is killed Parsons somehow becomes the ruler of his side. Somehow. So the Foolamancer would bring the dragons back to help. Then again, with Stanley gone Jillian would certainly bring back the Arkenhammer. I wonder what happens to the dragons then?

Anyway, I think it's reasonable that Alliance Air Forces are weakened enough that it becomes survivable for Parsons.

That leaves the assault on the city itself. Half of the siege units are gone. It might be that Ansom can only make limited breeches in the wall, which means that KISS + uncroaked with the Croakamancers leadership bonus might be able to hold the breech. Yes, this means Parsons *needs* to get the Croakamancer back. The uncroaked can hold the breech, and on Parson's turn he can have all the dead bodies uncroacked.

If this goes on for a few turns, loyalty can become a big problem. GK was supposed to be a rollover and it's becoming a meatgrinder. If Maggie hits a few units with Thinkamancy and makes them revolt (aka drops their Loyalty) the siege could collapse.

Then Parsons gets to go on the offensive.

[The Blind]

In the tunnels Sizemore has turned it into a few passages with a lot of dead ends. This is going to be perfect for a Gobwins + weaker golems to hold the door, together with the nastier golems lead by Sizemore to pick off units hit-and-run. Munch.

In the air battle of FAQ, Jillian may be getting overconfident. Stanley has his own leadership bonus plus artifact bonus plus a whole boatload of dragons. ...

Anyway, I think it's reasonable that Alliance Air Forces are weakened enough that it becomes survivable for Parsons.

That leaves the assault on the city itself. Half of the siege units are gone. It might be that Ansom can only make limited breeches in the wall, which means that KISS + uncroaked with the Croakamancers leadership bonus might be able to hold the breech. Yes, this means Parsons *needs* to get the Croakamancer back. The uncroaked can hold the breech, and on Parson's turn he can have all the dead bodies uncroacked.

That's a good summary of the situation. I skipped the bits about Stanley dying, though. Everyone wants Parson to have his own side, it seems, but part of why Erfworld is so enjoyable is just how many tensions and conflicts there are. I can't see the creators removing the biggest source of tension there is: Parson's forced obedience to an idiot. Especially when Parson receiving his own side would seem to violate the rules of succession that they've been very careful to spell out in detail.

Regarding the dwagons, I can't find the comic I'm looking for, but there is one that explicitly says the dwagons will obey Stanley as long as he wields the Arkenhammer. If Stanley loses it, at best the dwagons would no longer obey; at worse, if the Arkenhammer were attuned to Gillian or Ansom, then the dwagons could be tamed by them.

I'm also uncertain if Croakamancy would really allow Wanda to immediately raise the bodies after each turn. It seems like with that kind of advantage, the Tool wouldn't be losing so badly. And this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0003.html) doesn't make it clear whether Wanda needs to do anything for Uncroaked infantry to be popped. Having a Croakamancer might simply unlock Uncroaked infantry for the sides that have one.

I agree absolutely that the situation is more hopeful for Parson than it ever has been, for the reasons you've stated. I just can't credit some of the more fanciful conjectures. Good post with a good summary.

[leo_neil316]

I actually think he'll do it slightly differently.

The aliance air was a match for all the dragons. Now theres less dragons but stanleys (probally even higher than ansoms) leadership and artifact bonuses pilled in to even the odds back out.

But yeah, turning goblin knob into a nightmare of a meatgrinder is probally what parsons gonna have to try.

However I think he'll use the living infantry to assault breaches initially (specifically the troll and knight units, maybe some of the golem types depending on if it's just dirt golems that get the bonus from sizemore). Under the command of the uncroaked warlords so they can get as big a kill ratio as possible. Especially since Parson can use his mathmancy gauntlet to pick fights to a degree that it's hugely powerful magic by erf standards.

Then wanda starts uncroaking all the alliance infantry that bought it in the assault. Second turn starts with the numbers shifted a bit, possibly even significantly. Still far in the aliances favour. But with goblin knob looking more and more costly with every engagement report that comes in.

[ralphmerridew]

I think he's going to find an exploit in the Natural Thinkamancy rules.

He'll form some sort of threat against Ansom himself, in an attempt cause the coalition troops to disobey Ansom's orders.

[The Blind]

He'll form some sort of threat against Ansom himself, in an attempt cause the coalition troops to disobey Ansom's orders.

I wonder about that, too. But Ansom isn't a Ruler; it seems to me that the Alliance army has no more obligation to save Ansom, their Chief Warlord, than the Gobwin Knob army has one to save Parson. They might do it if they don't believe that they could conquer Gobwin Knob without him and conquering Gobwin Knob is the highest directive, but I don't see a threat to his person causing mass disobedience.

The last time he was personally threatened, the only one who considered disobedience to save him was Jillian while under the spell, and we already know that as a would-be heir and mercenary, she is her own Ruler, so she can do as she damn well pleases.

I guess we'll see. I personally expect something less than an exploit, perhaps a well-managed Battle of Stalingrad rather than Ender's Game. But who knows? This story has done a great job of avoiding the obvious so far. Can't wait for the next surprise to drop.

[SteveMB]

I wonder about that, too. But Ansom isn't a Ruler; it seems to me that the Alliance army has no more obligation to save Ansom, their Chief Warlord, than the Gobwin Knob army has one to save Parson. They might do it if they don't believe that they could conquer Gobwin Knob without him and conquering Gobwin Knob is the highest directive, but I don't see a threat to his person causing mass disobedience.

We're already established as much. If Ansom's army were that focused on protecting him personally, they would at the very least have dragged their feet ever step of the way about letting him lead the attack on the Donut o' Doom (if they couldn't find a way to prevent it outright).


I guess we'll see. I personally expect something less than an exploit, perhaps a well-managed Battle of Stalingrad rather than Ender's Game. But who knows? This story has done a great job of avoiding the obvious so far. Can't wait for the next surprise to drop.

Indeed. I suppose I could go back and look at my track record of guesses and predictions, but I'm not sure I want to.... :smalleek:

[ralphmerridew]

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad, deployment & casualties at Stalingrad were comparable for both sides. Even if Parson could match the skill shown there, he's still up against the 25-1 numeric advantage, and Ansom has decent weather and supply chain. If Parson plays according to known strategies, he has no chance.

I consider a strategy combining known rules to disproportionate effect, such as the hit and run attacks, to be an exploit.

The Natural Thinkamancy rules are the first new rules to be openly discussed in some time, but they have been foreshadowed from early on.

[The Blind]

Even if Parson could match the skill shown there, he's still up against the 25-1 numeric advantage, and Ansom has decent weather and supply chain. If Parson plays according to known strategies, he has no chance.

The comparison is less apt than it might seem. I said it half-jokingly, referring to Parson's early "strategery" klog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0041.html), but the situations are not comparable. The Soviet Union had clear superiority in available manpower and a steadily-decreasing deficiency in materiel, while Germany initially held and eventually lost air superiority. The Soviets traded men for time, but casualties were roughly equal. In Parson's situation, where he has no need to give weapons only to every second soldier and his defensive position is the best in the known world, and Ansom has just sent his air superiority to hunt down Stanley, the casualties ought to be grossly disproportionate in Parson's favor.

You're right, though: not disproportionate enough. It will take unconventional tactics; flanking attacks through fresh tunnels dug by Sizemore, perhaps, or loyalty draining by Maggie, or any number of other tactics I haven't even imagined.


I consider a strategy combining known rules to disproportionate effect, such as the hit and run attacks, to be an exploit.

We have different terminologies here. I just view that as good strategic thinking; it isn't an exploit unless it breaks the game, or in this case, the world.

I think I've written over a hundred words only to realize that we are in substantial agreement. Oh well, that's forums for you.

[Runar]

Looking at different parts of Parson's Klog, I think I see one strategy that he might use. If he has Sizemore block off, just enough for the enemy troops to not see it, one of the tunnels, then possibly waits until Ansom's troops march over it, then use a surprise attack, or some sort of explosion, to sabotage some of the Column.

[hajo]

the casualties ought to be grossly disproportionate in Parson's favor... though: not disproportionate enough.
If Wanda can be reactivated, and she can uncroak fallen enemy units, Parson could replace his losses - and perhaps even get stronger.

[The Blind]

If Wanda can be reactivated, and she can uncroak fallen enemy units, Parson could replace his losses - and perhaps even get stronger.

That's the million dollar question.

And there's still no evidence either way. Way to build the tension. We might not know until the battle. It definitely doesn't seem to have occurred to Parson yet.

I still hold out hope for an uncroaked Ansom, but I think the creators may be willing to part ways with traditional views of Necromancy here.

[ralphmerridew]

Ansom had 25:1 numerical superiority. He thought that was 4 times what he needed (so Ansom thought 6:1 superiority would be enough for worst case). Parson croaked a fair number of troops with the dwagons, but I don't think it had that big of an effect of the ratio, and I think the loss of the dwagons will have a bigger effect on Parson than the partial loss of siege engines will on Ansom.

Also, for comparison, if I got this right, defenders at Cold Harbor and Pickett's Charge inflicted 6 times their own casualties; defenders at Marye's Heights and Franklin "only" inflicted 3 times their own casualties.

[hajo]

It definitely doesn't seem to have occurred to Parson yet.
Even if he didn't think about uncroaking enemy units (but I think Parson is smart enough to consider it), Wanda's leadership-bonus for uncroaked units is enough reason to make it a priority for Maggie to reactivate her.

[stm177]

Once Ansom engages his army, how many turns would it take to defeat Parson? Assuming Parson doesn't find an exploit to win.

[Frictional]

I personally cannot wait until Jillian and the Tool fight. I mean, can you imagine?
Jillian is a warrior princess (pardon the term) and a Royal to boot, but what is Stanley? He was a common infantry unit that came all the way up through the ranks, found the Arkenhammer as a Warlord, then became Chief Warlord. He may not be the best or most respected Overlord, but theres no denying he was a fighting marvel. With all his dragons, himself leading them, and an Arkentool... I think Jillian has a lot more to worry about than she thinks.

Anyway, assuming Stanley does destroy Jillian, he could make some deus ex machina comeback and save the battle for BK assuming that Parson's talent, though high, isn't quite enough to save the city. Wouldn't that be somethin.

[Runar]

Man, i've been going through just about every RTS strategy i've ever used, and the only real way that I can see is a tactical retreat.
In Age of Empires, when my main base (Gobwin Knob) was about to be destroyed, and me defeated, I would run away, leaving enough troops behind in my first base to defend it for a while, and inflict casualties, but will eventually be defeated, and got my most important people out to start multiple other bases in other, well defended areas, so I could use hit and run attacks.

Hey wait a second....highest ranking people leaving to make another base.....What if Stanly is using this for tactics, rather then just being an ego-centered maniac? I think I may see Stanly's win here.

[Arkenputtyknife]

Man, i've been going through just about every RTS strategy i've ever used, and the only real way that I can see is a tactical retreat.
The trouble with that is that Ansom said the plan is to attack GK on all sides and rush through the first breach in the defenses. It's hard to do a tactical retreat when you're surrounded.

[Aquillion]

The trouble with that is that Ansom said the plan is to attack GK on all sides and rush through the first breach in the defenses. It's hard to do a tactical retreat when you're surrounded.Um, he already did a tactical retreat. I think that's the point. The only reason it might not work is because of Jillian (and I don't think he had any idea who she was, since he was surprised that she hated him.)

[Arkenputtyknife]

Um, he already did a tactical retreat.
Stanley has already done a tactical retreat. He has dwagons. Parson has no dwagons and has no direction to retreat. Now maybe the previous poster was talking about Stanley's vamoosing, but that's not the impression I had.

[hajo]

the plan is to attack GK on all sides and rush through the first breach in the defenses.
Parson knows that plan, so he could position most of his troops to defend just that one spot.
The key is to know where that spot will be, and the easy way to know would be to make the breach yourself, e.g. to just open the gate (or have it break open at the first knock).

Again, unconventional tactics: Ansom expects the defenders spread out evenly around the walls, so any spot would have only a handful of units, which would be relatively easy to defeat.
I expect Parson instead to put up a massive defense at just one spot, aka kill-zone.

[The Blind]

Also, for comparison, if I got this right, defenders at Cold Harbor and Pickett's Charge inflicted 6 times their own casualties; defenders at Marye's Heights and Franklin "only" inflicted 3 times their own casualties.

Once Ansom engages his army, how many turns would it take to defeat Parson? Assuming Parson doesn't find an exploit to win.

Those ratios sound reasonable; I don't know them myself. I expect Parson's battle to be far more bloody and disproportionate than any real-world analogue, though, for two reasons, one of which I've never seen mentioned.


Gobwin Knob is the best defensive position in the world. Any siege ought to have terrible losses, and everybody knows this. And it ought to mean a higher casualty count, because:
Morale seems to play no role in Erfworld.


In almost every real-life battle and in some games, like the Total War series, armies don't fight to the last man. They fight until one of them breaks. In Erfworld, that doesn't seem to happen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0063.html), especially given what we've learned about the Obedience mechanic. We've also only seen mention of the option to Capture instead of Croak when it comes to Warlords and casters (and presumably Rulers). So armies probably won't be able to surrender when they are obviously lost; they still have to be destroyed. Casualties will be enormous if Parson can delay being overwhelmed by even a single turn.

Bottom line, Ansom has to either kill Stanley, thereby disbanding all the defenders, or kill every single unit in Gobwin Knob. That might take longer than we think. It depends on whether Gobwin Knob is a single hex or multiple hexes, and I don't know whether strategies of rapid-response (a thin line of defenders and a few heavy reserve groups to repulse any breakthroughs) will work in a turn-based game. It'd be all too easy for thin lines to get overwhelmed in multiple places and then have the reserves facing attack from all sides before it was their turn to respond.


In Age of Empires, when my main base (Gobwin Knob) was about to be destroyed, and me defeated, I would run away, leaving enough troops behind in my first base to defend it for a while, and inflict casualties, but will eventually be defeated, and got my most important people out to start multiple other bases in other, well defended areas, so I could use hit and run attacks.

I used to do this in Starcraft, too. I wasn't good enough to win, most of the time, but I'd take my Terrans and keep running and running. In a multiple player free-for-all, I might be the second-to-last remaining. It definitely seems to be what Stanley's doing. I don't think he's doing it to be tactically wise, though; all of his "walking this path alone" talk indicates he's written everyone off.


Again, unconventional tactics: Ansom expects the defenders spread out evenly around the walls, so any spot would have only a handful of units, which would be relatively easy to defeat.
I expect Parson instead to put up a massive defense at just one spot, aka kill-zone.

That does seem like his best strategy. That, and tunneling counter-attacks with Sizemore, if he can bypass or defeat the Marbits. I'm eager to find out what orders have Sizemore so mortified in the picture at the top of this Klog.

[SauroGrenom]

Hmmm... I don't think that the authors will simply kill off Stanley. I didn't think they would kill off Misty either, so that goes to show what my thoughts are worth.

As for Parson's strategy, it looks like he's going to send Sizemore to bottle up the tunnels. Ansom's plan was that the marbits in the tunnels would be a distraction drawing more troops to defend the tunnels.

The two best options I see with respect to the tunnels is to either collapse them (block that attack route) or to try and escape that way.

If he blocks the tunnels, then all his troops can be committed to defending the walls, and defeat that part of Ansom's plan.

If he slowly withdraws into the tunnels as the top of the city is lost, then he can fight a siberian war of attrition slowly retreating into the maze of tunnels.

[Aquillion]

Stanley has already done a tactical retreat. He has dwagons. Parson has no dwagons and has no direction to retreat. Now maybe the previous poster was talking about Stanley's vamoosing, but that's not the impression I had.Oh. Well, Parson can't retreat anyway; his side's upkeep stops being paid when GK is captured. Even if he's able to survive without upkeep (uncertain), it doesn't seem likely that anyone else on his side can... I can't really see him letting them all die so he can run away.

Also, with no upkeep he definitely wouldn't get any food. Parson does seem to like his food.

[hajo]

with no upkeep he definitely wouldn't get any food. Parson does seem to like his food.
Not to mention the toys and the infos from his stupid meals :smallamused:

[Newtkeeper]

Oh. Well, Parson can't retreat anyway; his side's upkeep stops being paid when GK is captured. Even if he's able to survive without upkeep (uncertain), it doesn't seem likely that anyone else on his side can... I can't really see him letting them all die so he can run away.

Does it stop, though? We have seen 'mercenary factions', apparently without a capital, haven't we?

[Runar]

But, at least one of those mercenary factions (Jillian) seems to have their own treasury, given the qoute :"I spent almost my entire purse on that thinkagram" , so that means that that is how they get their food and stuff. So, since Parson doesn't have his own money, he would NOT get his own food and stuff, so he HAS to hold Gobwin Knob.

[hajo]

those mercenary factions (Jillian) seems to have their own treasury ..
since Parson doesn't have his own money, he would NOT get his own food and stuff, so he HAS to hold Gobwin Knob.
Sizemore estimated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0060.html) that Parson's battle-calculator might be worth more than half a million.
That should be enough to keep him alive, and perhaps start/keep & finance his own side.

[Lamech]

Actually I don't think 500,000 smuckers can be carried around otherwise Stanley would have taken the treasury. Jillian said purse so I think that is something different. Of course, Parson might be able to trade it for a moneymancy artifact, so I'm kind of being nitpicky.
Also if Parson can start his own side he might be able to convince the people of GK to "defect" to side Parson. Then Parson can probably make some crap up about being a "royal". And convince Ansom to go away. Assuming of course, sides can be determined, and Parson has a way of showing the defections.

[hajo]

I don't think 500,000 smuckers can be carried around
otherwise Stanley would have taken the treasury.
We haven't seen real money or coins on Erf yet.
So maybe it works like bank-accounts, with usage restricted by some rules.
How else could the payments to Charly work otherwise ?

[enthemic]

In all honesty I think it's too early to say what Parson will do.

When viewed from the perspective of Parson's mythic struggle - i.e his struggle with "escapism" versus "free will" (as depicted through Parson taking Erfworld at face value versus his unwillingness to obey Stanley) - Parson's course of action becomes a little more blurry. Add into the mix the suggestion that "thinkmancy" is directly related to the nature of "free will" in Erfworld and it's really anyones guess what Parson will gain from talking with Charley.

What we can surmise is...

From a story perspective it makes sense for the next strip to be about Prince Ansom's plans, either for battle or to predictably send a rescue party after Jillian, or more likely both. (This simply increases the suspense - what will Parson and Charley talk about? What will Jillian do, fight Stanley or claim Faq? )

Then we get a "filler" strip about Stanley, followed by a strip about either Parson or Jillian. From a mythic standpoint, it makes sense for it to be about Parson- his conversation with Charley has little bearing on either of his two mythic conflicts - and most likely we can expect this strip to simply increase the tension related to the "free will" conflict. (i.e. Charley attempts to dominate Parsons and we're left wondering whether he will obey or follow his own free will.) Either leave the ultimate free will question "Will Parson blindly obey Stanley" still unresolved as currently Parson has essentially been left to his own free will to indulge in his own personal comi-tragedy - (i.e. that he chooses escapism over engaging with the world.)

The expectation of the audience is that this conversation will reveal more about the fundamental nature of Erfworld and so it's possible that a deus-ex-machina of some sort will be introduced here too, although really I think the best we can hope for is some background exposition about the arkentools - Charley certainly seems to be in a position (the wizard of Oz position to be precise) to give that information to the audience.

Then we get a strip about Jillian and/or Stanley - which would sensibly be Jillian in a fight with Stanley (I think "you didn't hear a word I said, did you?" indicates that she's not likely to head directly to faq, besides her doing so would reduce some of the story tension from that plot thread.) Which results in her (or him) either getting captured or "disabled / lost under dangerous circumstance" (to increase the tension of this side plot).

Then finally we get a strip about Parson's plans... but at this point - perhaps prince Ansom has decided to divert his troops from the city as his main reason for taking the city no longer exists (although the title of this strip chapter suggests otherwise) Perhaps (although unlikely) Stanley/Jillian has been defeated or captured by Jillian/Stanley. Perhaps Parson has decided to surrender the city to save his own hide. (All of these seem pretty unlikely)

Charley's nature has (quite deftly) been left a mystery, so at this point it's hard to say where Parson will be, but if I had to guess I would say that Parson and Charley come to an agreement where Charley's Archons leave or become ineffective (they clearly make the battle a foregone conclusion, Ansom's forces are already pretty overwhelming) and Parson will be left with a "fighting chance" and a major conflict of some sort - ie will he continue to indulge in the escapism of trying to win "the game" or will he try to save his skin - or more likely will he (we) get to discover whether he really has free will or not.

Either way I think Wanda's recovery (and the strategy suggestion that she could create Croaked troops for defense) is a distraction/mcguffin, or at best represents Parson giving in to escapism (Will he interact with Erfworld as though it really exists, rather than is a though it's just a game/dream? So far he has managed to do both, or at least leave his motivations unexplained.) Ultimately I think this is the real gristle of this strip, and at this point is seems too early to have such a simple (and obvious) resolution to both the perceived conflict (the battle) and the underlying conflict (escapism).

(edited for spelling - all your spell checkers are belong to someone else)

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

I actually think the Coalition might accept a surrender by LORD Hamster and make him the governor of Gobwin Knob. He claims nobility. It can't be verrified though as he is a summoned outsider... but well, if he is a lord with his own livery (he kinda is...), he might be accepted by Ansom as a new ally or vassal.

And there's also the point on what the plan for the comic is. Is it a one-issue story or will it be a series (like OotS)?
If Erfworld becomes a series, the battle for gobwin knob is just an episode. there has been battle for gobwin knob allready, and in history, not all battles have been decided by force of arms. quite a few have been resolved by surrenders and defections.

[SteveMB]

And there's also the point on what the plan for the comic is. Is it a one-issue story or will it be a series (like OotS)?
If Erfworld becomes a series, the battle for gobwin knob is just an episode. there has been battle for gobwin knob allready, and in history, not all battles have been decided by force of arms. quite a few have been resolved by surrenders and defections.

IIRC, the authors' stated intent is to continue, but a final decision depends on the success of Part I (e.g. how well the croaked-Gump edition sells).

[VaeVictis]

Ansom can't breach the walls without siege. The dragons wiped out most of his siege engines. If GK can whittle away Ansom's siege, Ansom's only choices are (in order of decreasing probability)

1) go through the tunnels and take the city from within (unbolt the gates, sabotage the defenders, etc.)
2) Starve out GK's forces until he can procure more siege.
3) use some sort of magic to breach the walls (expensive, unlikely, since SOMEONE would have mentioned it before)
4) Air assault on the city - not very likely since most of his air force is nonexistent and GK has archers/etc.

Parson is making option #1 look like an extremely bad choice with his tunnel tactics. #2 is more likely, but it buys Parson a lot of time with which to attempt to break the alliance, or otherwise plan against Ansom. The only thing we've seen so far capable of enacting #3 are Charlie's Archons - which Parson seems to be attempting to subvert - and the Attuned Arkentools (specifically the ArkenHammer, which can fling lightning about.)
#4 is highly improbable, but I figured I'd throw it out there as a possibility since the dwagons are out in the field, and even 6:1 against GK's archers is a pretty hefty air force. Remember - GK only really needs to be breached in one place and it's game over.

[SteveMB]

Ansom can't breach the walls without siege. The dragons wiped out most of his siege engines.

He lost not quite half (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0062.html) of his siege train. The other half should still be enough, given the huge advantage he had in overall force to begin with.

[Tortue]

No, silly... Parson's win happens when Stanley the Tool gets himself killed and Parson becomes King (or whatever title for faction leader) of Gobwin Knob.

How does this happen, you ask? Well, beaucoup Schmuckers must be spent to make the Warlord into an Heir. - and Stanley controls the purse strings of the faction, and he's not doing that.

But Parson controls the mathamancy artifact which is worth beaucoup schmuckers and he's bargaining with Charlie.... If he sells it, he personally has a bunch of money and can spend it in the capitol.

Now, he's under a compulsion to try to defend Gobwin Knob. But he has latitude to decide how. The Tool, who is faction leader for Gobwin Knob, has bugged out. There is a substantial and uncontrollable (by Parson) risk that the Tool will get killed, and if that happens - and there's no Heir - Gobwin Knob loses by disbanding. Therefore his loyalty compulsion will NOT stop him from promoting himself to Heir, because it's a contingency plan that responds appropriately and within his orders ("defend gobwin knob") to an otherwise uncontrollable risk of losing.

He's also under an obedience compulsion to Stanley, who probably wouldn't want him to do this: but Stanley never actually told him not to, did he?


Tortue

[SteveMB]

But Parson controls the mathamancy artifact which is worth beaucoup schmuckers and he's bargaining with Charlie.... If he sells it, he personally has a bunch of money and can spend it in the capitol.

Hmmmm... the question here is whether it's possible for him to have his own "purse" while still being (at least nominally) Stanley's Chief Warlord, or of how he can break away to form his own side (or become a barbarian mercenary).

One thought: Ansom surmises (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html)) from Jillian's story that Stanley is planning to "start a new side" at Faq. Note also Parson's observation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0088.html) "Royal empires split off sometimes into new sides". Perhaps any empire can split off a new faction, not just royal ones. (I'd trust Ansom more on that point -- if there's anybody on Erfworld who wouldn't misspeak in a way that blurs a distinction between royals and non-noble overlords, it's Ansom.)

If so, and Stanley does get to start his new side, does that include cutting loose his former (Gobwin Knob) side? If so, would that cause them to be disbanded in the absence of a heir (as Parson's "Shouldn't you have disbanded?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0087.html) question seems to imply)? If so, is disbandment automatic... or can it be avoided if someone -- say, Parson with the proceeds of selling the Mathemancy armband -- picks up the unit's upkeep?

A string of "if so"s, admittedly.

[Tinox]

Well, I don't know. I believe this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0011.html) page is, if not proof, at least a good indicator that some units may possess a small personal purse. Maybe only casters and warlords, and maybe only to a limited extent, but I'm pretty sure Stanley wouldn't have paid Sizemore's training.

[MrEdwardNigma]

That's the million dollar question.

And there's still no evidence either way. Way to build the tension. We might not know until the battle. It definitely doesn't seem to have occurred to Parson yet.

I still hold out hope for an uncroaked Ansom, but I think the creators may be willing to part ways with traditional views of Necromancy here.

I don't think winning the battle will rely on bringing back the Croakamancer. Charlie seemed to assume parson would be able to win, knowing the Croakamancer was no use at the current time.

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

I actually can't see how Parson could win at this time. He has only about 800 units under his command... The coalition has near to 10,000 units. It does make the odds 12,5:1 rather than 25:1 though...
The natural defences and city walls are a bonus, but according to Sun Tzu, those can only mean harm to about 1600 units from the assaulting side (attack a fortress with a 3:1 ratio and you'll still lose 2 thirds of your army in the battle).
The Marbit attack may be changed from feint to main front... I don't know how that will affect Parson's strategy. Maybe he could just block the tunnel entrances at surface level but that would just delay the marbits.

Hmmm... I saw the movie "A battle of Wits" a few months ago. about a siege of 100,000 vs. 4000 (now those are 25:1 odds). In the end, the 4000 defenders won out despite royal stupidity (on the defending side)... it could happen here...

[hajo]

I actually can't see how Parson could win at this time. ..
The Marbit attack may be changed from feint to main front... I don't know how that will affect Parson's strategy.
Maybe he could just block the tunnel entrances at surface level but that would just delay the marbits.
On the walls, the attackers have superior numbers, and can hit every spot at the same time. Also, archers and air-units can help the attack.
In the tunnels, fighting happens only in one spot, at the end of a tunnel. No archers, no air-units involved. So each fight will be a few attackers vs. Sizemore's group of golems.
And we haven't even seen what traps and other surprises are waiting in the tunnels...

That means, Ansom sends lots of troops into the tunnels, where Sizemore defends and 'just' holds his position with the golems.
The rest of Parson's army (i.e. his whole army) now defends against the rest of Ansom's army, which is now much less in numbers.
This might work well enough to hold GK against Ansom for the upcoming allied turn.
After that, it depends on many things: losses on both sides, Stanley/Jillian/FAQ, Charlie, Wanda, effects of negotiations ...

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

The point is: Will Ansom sent other coalition members besides the Marbits into the tunnels? As far as I know, only the Marbits are tunnel-capable. So, I don't think the surface assault will be weakened in favor of the underground attack. The Marbits alone outnumber the GK defence by a small margin and most of the GK troops will still be on the walls. The Marbit attack becomes more important if the feint is switched from tunnels to towers, but reinforcing it with units who can't navigate tunnels would be a waste of manpower for the coalition.

[Lamech]

Why would they need to worry about navigating the tunnels? Jillian was able to escape through them; she will make a great guide. She probably even knows how to sneak in with out worrying about the traps or defenses.

Or actually she won't make a great guide, as she didn't escape through them and might have a bad entrance path from Wanda, but the coalition doesn't know that.

[stm177]

Someone above mentioned this comic. In rereading it, I came up with a question.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0087.html


So the side question:
I've assumed that Stanley had something to do with the revolt, but it hasn't been explicitly said. It seems like a reasonable assumption. In silhouette, Saline IV is being executed. The short shadows looks like gobwins, but who are the tall shadow figures?

Stanley didn't seem to have any favorites among his troops. The chief warlord was always the handsomest, bravest one. It also sounds like the special mission was to destroy Faq, so the shadow figure wouldn't be Wanda either. That's assuming she was captured in the battle at Faq using a rule exploit.

It's also possible that Stanley didn't have anything to do with it. My wild theory is that Ansom turned the gobwins and executed Saline IV. Ansom may have been offended by Stanley's promotion to heir.

[Tinox]

Actually, this would've been a pretty (and I mean very) bad move for Ansom, since it basically came down to killing a royal to put a non-royal in its place.

[hajo]

It also sounds like the special mission was to destroy Faq,
I doubt that. Sizemore would have mentioned it, if they had encountered/captured another caster. Also, destroying/capturing some kingdom would have been newsworthy, as opposed to some random, inconsequential mission.

[ishnar]

Man, i've been going through just about every RTS strategy i've ever used, and the only real way that I can see is a tactical retreat.
In Age of Empires, when my main base (Gobwin Knob) was about to be destroyed, and me defeated, I would run away, leaving enough troops behind in my first base to defend it for a while, and inflict casualties, but will eventually be defeated, and got my most important people out to start multiple other bases in other, well defended areas, so I could use hit and run attacks.

Hey wait a second....highest ranking people leaving to make another base.....What if Stanly is using this for tactics, rather then just being an ego-centered maniac? I think I may see Stanly's win here.

I think the problem here is your experience in RTS. In RTS games, there is only one consciousness for each army. Although multiple armies might ally in games of greater than 2 players. So there is effectively zero delegation going on. Also, due to the nature of RTS games, there is actually very little strategy going on. They should be called real time tactical games since nearly all the choices you make in an RTS are tactical decisions not strategic. Because these tactical games are going on with no delegation it is almost impossible to use forces to their maximum potential. Turn based strategy games generally have much more strategy. One problem with RTS and many turn based strategy games as well, is that the "strategy" is limited to the field of battle, when in reality, strategy covers the entire war operation, not just one segment of it.

I think too many people are looking for a rule exploit, the kind that crop up in trading card games. What we need here is a situational exploit. Either exploit existing conditions, or create a situation that is exploitable.


I consider a strategy combining known rules to disproportionate effect, such as the hit and run attacks, to be an exploit.


Hit and run attacks, or rather, the decision to use hit and run attacks is a strategy. More specifically, it is an attritional strategy or a delaying strategy. The application of hit and run attacks is tactics.

Strategy not limited to disproportionate effects. Strategy is any planned use of forces. It also includes diplomacy and intelligence concerning those forces. Disproportionate effects due to a situational exploit, is the the goal of all strategists, but since all the rules are generally known to both sides, these disproportionate effects are pretty rare in history. However, just because a strategist is might be unable to achieve the holy grail, does not make the results of their efforts not-strategic. The strategies applied still improve the odds of the eventual engagements.

Not including new technology, if we look at historical battles won by a unique tactic that wasn't wasn't beyond the imagination of the other side, but just discounted because they would not normally promote a victory, there are a few.

Some places where it did work out.
Scipio beats Hannibal. Defensive wars don't work very well. Historically there are proportionately very few that have been survived, much less won by a defending nation. After several years losing a defensive war, Scipio decided to ignore the politicians and left Rome for Carthage instead of staying in Rome like all the previous general had done. When the Carthaginians saw Scipio on their borders, they recalled Hannibal. Exploit. If you can't fight the other army directly, fight his support base.

Alexander takes Tyre. Everyone knows that it's better for an army in enemy territory to cross unavoidable bodies of water by boat. Unfortunately, Tyre specialized in taking boats out so a new solution was required. Alexander built a land bridge instead. Exploit: If you can't exploit the terrain, change the terrain.

Manchus conquer China: China had this big wall. It was so big that going around it was impractical and it was too well defended to dismantle before a sufficient relief force arrives. Eventually, one Manchu got the great idea of bribing or threatening a gatekeeper to open the gates at a key moment. They got past the wall effectively without a real fight. It's said it took the army 3 days to march through the gate. Exploit: If you can't exploit the terrain, exploit the enemy soldier.

----

There are numerous strategic decisions that could be made depending on the overall situation. I'm guessing for example, that for this war, they probably rounded up anyone that could see lightning or hear thunder. So the allies bases should be lightly defended. If Stanley were smart, he could attack these towns directly or perhaps just skirmish near several. That would probably be enough for some of the alllies to divert fighters from the war front to the back lines. Likewise, if Parson can divert enough of the enemy out of position with his current strategy, then he might be able to punch through the allies and attack another city. If he did, then the allies would probably be more worried about the mobile army than the stationary one and delay the taking of Gobwin Knob and instead give chase to Parson's army. Giving Parson more time, and maintaining his upkeep costs as he runs.

The biggest mistake of fighting a defensive war is bunker mentality. Defenders win by attacking too. Even fighting defensively, a war leader needs to be constantly focused on attacking and gaining the initiative.
A bunker mentality is what happens when the leader becomes so fixated on defense, that they become incapable of seeing weaknesses in the enemy's formation and launching effective counterattacks.

[Richbin]

I think I see the possibility of Parson;s win as well...

I cannot recall where it was, but Sizemore informed Parson that the initial tunnels were volcanic in nature - that GK was built in a caldera.
The exploit not covered in the rules would be to open funnel the attackers into the tunnels through some ruse (which seems to working), and opening a tunnel to the lava below, and potentially up and around the walls as well.
This would basically modify 'occupiable' hexes by impassable and totally deadly hexes underground as well as above ground around the keep...


the natural terrain, coupled with sizemore's ability, might only leave the airborne units available for attack from Ansom's side.
Then, if the Croakamancer can reanimate skeletons, sizemore can even dig up whatever remains there might be.... just a thought...

What is he going to offer to the coalition leaders? Information, as well as mis-information.
This might as well just be some way to identify who the leaders are who have a say in things on Ansom's side. Possibly to just negotiate a truce, or initiate surrender terms. Only to buy time, mind you, and potentially to inform them of Stanley's departure, and therefore to see who is fighting against Stanley, and who wants to fight to conquer GK.
Perhaps he will come clean about the barbarian Princess being a double agent... (as we know there are some in Ansom's faction that already trust her not).

Just my two bits...

[Richbin]

there is one more point.
Faq was accessible from air or through tunnels.
I cannot see why Jillian (or the narrator) would specify this, other than to make it possible for Sizemore to get there unhindered through tunnels...

Just another 2-bit (not marbit) thought...

So especially if Stanley is not going after faq, but after Charlie or Ansom's home, the possibility does come to mind for Sizemore to go there.
Although Stanley and jillian are supposedly the only two who know ehere it is, there is also Wanda, who hails from there... this might be why Parson's wants her - not only for the uncroaked bonus her croakamancy gives him, but for the knowledge in her brain...

[Richbin]

Last, but certainly not least, Parson offered his services up to Charlie to potentially also see whether or not he HAD any Matahamancers.
Charlie did not come out and say he did not have any, other than to find Parson's offer 'intriguing', but I am relatively certain that Parson has discovered that Charlie has none (and by extrapolation, that the coalition forces do not either).

This means he can indeed bluff his way through the odds by claiming mathamancy superiority.
For all we know, he actually has calculated the 'odds' of the outcome, and found the figures to be in his sides' favor as far as eliminating a huge portion of the opposition is concerned (see caldera option above).

If he actually reveals the 'numbers' he has crunched to the leaders, and points out to them there is no need for them to proceed onto this hollow victory, then he might well cleave the opposition he faces.

Ansom would be in the classical situation of the man with 20 men on his side, telling them to charge the enemy who has only 14 bullets in his magazine.
He is leading a coalition, not his own forces, so which ruler would be willing to sacrifice a majority (if potentially not all of) their forces in such a match?

This can buy Parson some time, and at the very least bring the leaders to the negotiating table. No one wishes to be the one to exit from this batttle as easy prey for Stanley's dwagon flight, or other threats...

A coalition is only as strong as its weakest members.

[Grug]

I was dozing in chemistry class, when suddenly it came to me!

Children!

Royals are descended from the Titans. That could mean that they and they alone have parents and childhoods. that may even be the identification of a royal, being able to trace your family tree. Parson will subtly reveal that he also has a childhood, family, and past. Suddenly all of the elves will be confused. In Royal vs. Royal, who wins? Not to mention it will Ansom himself confused.

EDIT: @ above. I'm doubt that's what happened. I think that Parson was only using his watch as a bargaining chip to get the Archons on his side, who could immediately defect and slaughter the ranks.

[SteveMB]

I was dozing in chemistry class, when suddenly it came to me!

Children!

Royals are descended from the Titans. That could mean that they and they alone have parents and childhoods.

Remember Jillian's description of her history (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0091.html)? "His [Banhammer's] Predictamancer told him his precious toy kingdom would fall someday. So he ordered an heir [Jillian] popped." (emphasis added)

The explanation that fits is that terms like "father" are used to describe the relationship between a ruler and an heir popped in response to the ruler's orders (and coming into existence as an adult like all other units); "descended" would refer to a chain of such orders going back to the first royals created by the Titans. It would be unique to rulers (since rulers control the popping of new units).

[Runar]

Unless they get Wanda back up and running, I can't see an actual "win" for Parson, other then Stanly having a change of heart, which I really doubt...

I can see a win for Stanly, taking over Faq, perhaps even finding enough money there to pop a LOT of guys and gaurd it mercilessly.

I can see a win for Ansom if he wasn't so concerned about royalty, killing off all his allies, then taking over their domains while they are weak.

BUT I CAN'T SEE A WIN FOR PARSON!

[Taross]

to SteveMB:

With regards to how 'automatic' disbanding is...
I believe that it's safe to assume some form of M;TG rules of play during a turn apply.
When a player is reduced to zero health, they basically have until the end of turn to try and get back onto their feet. If they can't manage that, then they lose.

We might actually be looking at a gambit battle. If they lose Stanley, and only have until the end of their turn or disband, things might get very, very interesting. It'd definitely throw all the previous speculations for a loop.

[Taross]

to SteveMB:

With regards to how 'automatic' disbanding is...
I believe that it's safe to assume some form of M;TG rules of play during a turn apply.
When a player is reduced to zero health, they basically have until the end of turn to try and get back onto their feet. If they can't manage that, then they lose.

We might actually be looking at a gambit battle. If they lose Stanley, and only have until the end of their turn or disband, things might get very, very interesting. It'd definitely throw all the previous speculations for a loop.

[Doomsy]

He does not need to defeat Ansoms entire army. He just needs to defeat Ansom. Capture or kill the leader, and from the way Erfworld is set up, everything goes straight to hell.

Ansom just transferred his nobles into one alliance from the looks of things, and he is dangerously pissed at Parsons for the nobility slurs more than the heavy handed attempts at raising suspicions. With enough goading, it might be possible to force Ansom into doing something rash to prove his own nobility rather than being pragmatic.

Without Vinny or Jillian to temper his tendencies, I could easily imagine Parsons making an opening in his defenses to trap Ansom, who is naturally leading his charge just to prove how good nobility really is.

[Teron]

to SteveMB:

With regards to how 'automatic' disbanding is...
I believe that it's safe to assume some form of M;TG rules of play during a turn apply.
When a player is reduced to zero health, they basically have until the end of turn to try and get back onto their feet. If they can't manage that, then they lose.
That's not true. Years ago, under a long-obsolete ruleset, you had until the end of the phase (a part of a turn), but now you lose immediately if you have zero or less life after any spell, ability or combat damage resolves.

As for disbanding, I would assume it's instant when the Overlord decides consciously to do it, but if he just croaks his units might have until an upkeep payment needs to be made, presumably at the start of the next turn. Unfortunately, that would mean that they don't get a chance to react to losing Stanley on someone else's turn.

Doomsy, Ansom isn't Overlord of his side, just Chief Warlord and presumably heir to King Slately (according to the cast page).

Finally (please excuse the disorder, I'm typing this as it comes to me), I don't think Parson can start a barbarian faction unless he can qualify as an Overlord somehow. The only example we have, Jillian, was a royal heir, so while her side lost its cities, it still had a valid ruler.

[Roupe]

Regarding the 25:1 ratio,
the uncroaked troops improve the ratio significantly. Parson is sure to get replenished troops from killing foes, so he will increase his forces and ratio as long as more enemy troops dies than his.

It reminds of a scenario in one of the heroes of might and magic, where the player starts with a few undead wraiths, and by killing the foes increase the players forces numbers.

[Kish]

Finally (please excuse the disorder, I'm typing this as it comes to me), I don't think Parson can start a barbarian faction unless he can qualify as an Overlord somehow. The only example we have, Jillian, was a royal heir, so while her side lost its cities, it still had a valid ruler.
That can't be an absolute requirement for a barbarian warlord, or Ansom and everyone else would have immediately known she had to be a royal.

[Yodimus]

I just read through the last third of the comic and Holy boop, I DO see Parson's Win. Or a potential win scenario, anyway. . .


He does not need to defeat Ansoms entire army. He just needs to defeat Ansom. Capture or kill the leader, and from the way Erfworld is set up, everything goes straight to hell.

This. Very important factor.

1) Parson has played his hand well - he's made Ansom reckless via that thinkagram, and pretty much convinced him to conduct the entire siege underground thanks to his tactics with the dirtamancer. Ansom wants to show all his Allies that he can do this himself, plus he wants GW for all his own. So he's putting all his own forces in the tunnels.

2) The Dirtamancer has stated that while traps are possible, over collapsing the tunnels would result in the collapse of the entire kindom. This would obviously include the entire tunnel system. Persumably, this is a bad thing...unless your enemy is underneath you.

3) Ansom's army is in the tunnels. Ansom, ladies and gentlemen, is booped.


Of course, I really don't know this for sure. He doesn't seem too keen on leading his army through the tunnels and he might be thinking this exact same thing. There's a possibility he's using Webinar as bait, as Webinar suspects. If so, then I'm completely wrong, because this gambit is insanely dangerous. It hinges entirely on Ansom being in those tunnels, and without the Thinkamancers, Parson can't know Ansom's definitely there.

It would be awesome if it turned out this way, but the likelihood is shaky. I honestly can't think of any other win scenario, though. If Ansom stays above-ground, he's pretty much got a tic-tac-toe-style win-win situation on his hands.


The reality is, without outside help or divine intervention, Ansom is going to ultimately seize this fortress and capture all of Stanley's useful forces, Hamster included. That's just the way it be.

Roupe - you assume the loyalty trait vanishes at death. I seriously doubt this, or they wouldn't have needed Parson in the first place.

[Zolem]

Yodimus, I have to disagree with you on the tunnle theory. Killing yourself to kill the enemy is a stupid plan. Even the Khamikazi didn't just kill themselves, they were already going to die in a crash, i.e. they were shot down, and as such they tried to make their deaths count. Going into battle with the plan to die is pointless. The way I see it, the battle breaks down into three parts so far, and Parson is doing great in two out of three.

1) Coalition loyalty. Parson has delt a big blow to this. He got Ansom to go on a tirade about how non-royals were unfit to lead. Anybody want to bet that not only were there some non-royals leading parts of the coalition, but that some of the rulers in the coalition aren't royal? :smallamused:

In adition, Parson never told a lie during the talk with Ansom. Charlie did say that he was sure Parson would come out on top, which means that he is secretly rooting for Parson, making him a secret alie. Thus, if any of the leaders use a spell to check out Parson's speech (and I'm certain there are spells that will let them do that, although they might not be able to if they didn't hear the thinkagram or aren't from the same side as the person who received it....) it'll definitly throw distrust into the ranks. In fact, coupled with Ansoms speech and posibly a repeat performance by Parson where he talks to various coalition leaders about his 'secret alie' (again, checkable by Truthamancy or something, and I KNOW they can check one they got themselves) might cause a few to just up and leave the coalition.

Now then, what about the elves? I doubt all are loyal to Jetstone. A lot of them are probably loayal to other factions in the coalition. If the faction pulls out, so will that variety of elves. What's more, if sudenly two or three forces leave, and take an elf type or two with them, other members of the coalition might not be so sure of their sucess. When entire nations abandon a cause, it makes you have to stop and wonder. This could lead to more desertions, especialy when casualties start rising. As more sides abandon, more sides are likly to abandon. Now it just becomes a matter of stalling for time.

2) Defensive Agression. Basicly, the ability to attack while on the defense. Wanda provided a lot of that, probably croaking most of the air-forces that weren't going to be used against stanly, and at least one archeon. The air-force that will be left now must either focus on Stanly with minimal support to GK forces, or it must abandon the hunt for Stanly all together. I doubt Ansem will let Stanly go, so GK will either have little or no air support.

So that takes care of the air-force. Now, what about the tunnles? You can't collaps them too much or your city falls. What do you do? The answer is simple. You collapse as many exits into the city as you safly can (with the rest of the plan, see below, taken into account). You block the rest with boulders. 'But' you say in a nasaly whine, 'won't that just let the tunnel troups turn around and leave?' Ah, no, it does not. HEre's where it gets tricky.

Webner leades troups through tunnles, getting hit by traps that weaken his forces. At the end of turn one, He finds a blocked exit. The Marbits inform him that GK can't collapse all its tunnle exits, as that would be extreamly angerous to the cities structure. Next turn, more traps, another blocked entrance or two. Next turn, a boulder blocked entrance. They realise that the collapsed tunnles were to keep them from seeing the obvious fortifications available. A cloth golem might try moving it. In that case, Twolls push to keep in closed. At best, it woudl be two cloth golems vs 5 or more Twolls, as the Twolls can get better positions thatn the gollems. If the boulder is still moving out, a unit of archers assigned for assistance pelts them with arrows, killing one of them and efecticly sealing the exits.

At this point Webner ecides to head back. What he doesn't know is this, that the two DEADLIEST traps remain. OIn turn 3, aroudn the time Webner would encounter the boulder, Seizmore collapsed the entrace to the tunnles THAT THE COALITION USED, TRAPPING THEM INSIDE. Now, on the way back to the exit, at a designated 'safe' point, several of which will have been pre-determined, Seizmore drops a section of tunnles onto part of the forces, cutting off about half the Marbits from all leadership bonuses. Weakened by traps and now a lack of leadership bonus, the Marbits would be easy prey for Seizmores heavily boosted Golems. He might lose one or two, but the Marbits are finished. Siezmore then vanishes back ino the tunnles.

Meanwhile, Webner, unaware that his troops are croaked and meanly asuming that they are traped and cut off, tries to find a way around to them through unfamiler tunnles, taking the traps as necessary because he assumes there will be fresh troops to lead back. Then, once his forces are weakened, he finds that his troops were destroyed by an unkown enemy. HE might send off some scout troops. If any do happen upon Siezmore, they would be devestated. Webner woudl go to where the scouts didn't report from, and the chase would be on. The chase would be in Siezmores favor though, as he knows the tunnles very well, including how to avoid the traps that Webner can't. Once Webner's troops are exausted, possibly around turn 5 or 6, Webner will just turn around and lead his troops out of the tunnles to report a failure to Ansem and discuss a new strategy. Then he finds the exit collapsed. He's now traped in the tunnles with the enemy. when Webner turns aroudn, so does Sizemore, useing his powers to move aside a boulder and bring his troops back into the city, resealing the exit behind him. His golems are now free to attack as needed. Webner will probably assign some MArbits to dig, while the others take up defensive formations. He's expectign the enemy to attack while he's trying to dig his way out. As such, he won't be digging as fast or effecticly as he could, delaying the time till the Marbits and whatever is left of his forces return.

This tunnles strategy is brilliant but one again requires time. Still, without air support, the battle will be long lasting. And when that entrance collapses on turn 3, you know a lot of people are going to write that entire branch of the forces off as lost. Scratch off a large part of your army, equal in size to 1.7 times the number of forces in all of GK, all in one battle, while the walls hold out and GK doesn't seem to be running low on troops despite the 'tunnle fighting' and you have a serious smack to troop and leader moral. This will probbly trigger several desertions right there, making the siege last even longer with fewer coalition troops. And if Parson can get is archers to target the siege, he'll get even more time. And time is on HIS side.

3) Offense. Quite frankly, at this point, Parson doesn't have offense. The Tool withdrew all forces via bunker mentality, so Parson doesn't have any striking toops left. Sicne he's going to cut Webner off in the tunnles, he cant use them to send out striking troops. His best hope is that Stanly defeats the enemy air-force. At this point, Stanly could be sent a thinkagram that states that they are winning the battle. This might convince Stanly to turn around and use his dwagons to attack the enemy forces. Teh addition of dragon strike troops would severly turn this fight around. However, it is a long shot, especialy considering Stanly's personality.

[SteveMB]

Hmmm... I generally agree with the overall concept, but I don't think it will drag out that long. Basically, Parson led Ansom to believe that he'd found a poorly-guarded tunnel approach to a main garrison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0100.html). Presumably, that's Webinar's first target. And, with a large force concentrated on a single target, a few tunnel cave-ins will croak or cut off much if not all of Webinar's force.

When the news of that gets back, the effect on the Coalition ought to be interesting (in the Chinese-curse sense of the word).

[Zolem]

Hmmm, you're tunnle strategy is very effective. However, we do know that MArbits can tunnle, so survivors could eventualy dig their way out....can units starve? If they get cut off from the main army, do they have a certain number of turns to get out before they croak? If they can, Parson could wipe them out without even fighting. Don't know if the Cloth Golems or Chachtkies(sp?) eat but with Webner, the Marbits, and the lizard thing gone, they wouldn't last. That simple tunle strategy plus the moral targeting tactics I described earlier would be extreamly effective. AFter the tunnle colapses, Prson talks to a few leaders one at a time, hinting that he knew the attack was comeing and that he has a secret alie. By by Coalition, hello only Jetstone. Now, admitedly, Jetstone is a vastly large force, but at this point it only has a few warlords, and with Webner gone soon, that's going to be a blow to them (assuming leadership bonuses stack). Also, we don't know how strong each of those indevidual units are. They might be mostly low level guys that were to be used to swarm the city once the wall fell. IF they're suddenly forced onto the front line, it won't be prety.

[Yodimus]

Yodimus, I have to disagree with you on the tunnle theory. Killing yourself to kill the enemy is a stupid plan. Even the Khamikazi didn't just kill themselves, they were already going to die in a crash, i.e. they were shot down, and as such they tried to make their deaths count. Going into battle with the plan to die is pointless.

Well...I don't see where collapsing the kingdom would cause death to people on the surface. Hell, Parson himself brought it up initially as a potentially viable option. As long as you know it's coming and therefore evacuate everyone from the Tower structures, you should avoid a large loss of life. Perhaps any loss of life, if the coartyard is big enough. The real loss here is in defense, I suppose, since you'd either severely weaken or perhaps destroy completely the outlying walls. Then again, the coalition would probably do that anyway in the same amount of time were they attacking (as noted on the new pg. 108, when Wanda confirmed for Parson that the allies could end this in one turn if they attacked right now). So really, all you stand to lose are the tunnels and your tower.

BUT - Steve's strategy is has more finess, and would require less work to accomplish. Also, you'd still have a defensive structure afterward, in case the allies don't defect. (though, again, it won't last)

[Arkenputtyknife]

Even the Khamikazi didn't just kill themselves, they were already going to die in a crash, i.e. they were shot down, and as such they tried to make their deaths count.
Who told you that?

They were called "Special Attack Units" and were units trained specifically for one-way missions on planes packed with explosives. They even had purpose-built planes such as the cheaply-built disposable Tsurugi, which jettisoned its undercarriage on takeoff (because it wasn't going to land), and the Ohka rocket plane, which was launched from a bomber and was nothing more nor less than a guided missile, where the guidance system was a human pilot. They were not shot-down pilots making the best of their situation.

By the way, there's no H in "Kamikaze". Though the official word was "Shinpuu".

[dither]

I've noticed that most of how "plans come together" in Erfworld seem to be well planned out in the story. I think that it's possible for Parson to win, now, though it certainly won't be from a single masterstroke, I think that it will happen due to a combination of all the little factors and a lot of luck.

1) WE DON'T KNOW HOW PARSON'S TAUNTING AFFECTED ANSOM.

Though it didn't initially seem very effective, when Parson taunted Ansom, it seems to have *really* set Ansom off. He's appeared angry in every strip since Parson "thinked" him.

This *seems* to have impacted Ansom's decision-making. Though he looks like he's putting "more faith" in the abilities of those around him, in truth, he may not be making the wisest decisions. He sent Jillian (the hot-headed barbarian) to deal with Stanley, and may have inadvertently armed Gobwin Knob with some powerful new uncroaked.

Ansom put one of his subordinates in charge of the attack from below, and from this we learned that there's no one between Webinar and Ansom in terms of commander strength. Despite all of those thousands of troops, they've got Ansom, Webinar, and "Webinar's girlfriend," the "2." There may be some others, but they'd have to fall under Webinar's commander strength, which we've learned isn't really all that much. Boop, even Parson's a "2."

Ansom seems to have "taken the bait" and committed the majority of the attack force (about 6,000 of the whole 10,000) to the underground attack, which may or may not be Gobwin Knob's strongest defense. The battle topside is now looking much more winnable, now with significantly less siege, no air cover? (see #2), and, as mentioned above, Wanda's ability to uncroak fallen units. It's possible that there may be a comparable force (likely not more than 3,000-4,000) waiting for Jetstone forces when they come up from below, but THAT might come out to be an even fight.


2) WE DON'T KNOW WHO SURVIVED THE AIR DEFENSES.

It's unknown how much of the Barbarian, Charlescomm, and Transylvito forces remain, but it's possible that the air defenses just wiped out 3 of the 10 allied forces (though small, this amounts to a great deal of firepower, since most of these units were pretty tough).

This may prove devastating to the Coalition morale, as this represents (IIRC) the entire air force. If Stanley were to miraculously return, there would be almost nothing to stop the dragons from annihilating the troops around Gobwin Knob.


3) WE DON'T KNOW WHY STANLEY LEFT.

Presumably, he flew the coop. In fact, that may be exactly what he did. But we still don't know for sure. It's possible, however, that he will come right back to Gobwin Knob and may even single-handedly win the topside battle.


4) WE DON'T KNOW WHAT PARSON'S "SPECIAL" ABILITY IS.

A number of things in his world parallel things in Erfworld. It's possible, however unlikely, that as he was a "Gamemaster" in his own world, that somehow translates into an ability in Erfworld. Uber powers? Who knows? This is still just speculation, but we have to look back at what Stanley wished for when he said what he wanted out of his "Perfect Warlord," because in many cases, he got what he wanted LITERALLY. This is probably the only clues we've got to Parson's "power."

...

...

The conclusion that I've drawn from this is that the Battle for Gobwin Knob will likely be a stalemate. Ansom, Parson, and Stanley, at the very least, will survive, and Ansom will be forced to retreat and rebuild his army.

During this time, Parson will be able to flex his strategic muscles and rebuild (maybe even relocate, who knows?) the capital, so that in (let's say a year's worth of turns), Ansom returns with the "real" attack force, and Parson, who has had time to settle in, and the real battle begins.

It's more than likely that we'll meet tons of new faces in there, and maybe even the "real" nemesis, the "genius" behind Ansom, who will be the real match for Parson.

[Yodimus]

3) WE DON'T KNOW WHY STANLEY LEFT.


But we have a pretty good idea. In one of the recountings - I think Jillian's - she talks about where her, Wanda, and Stanley came from. Namely, a secret, seemingly self-sufficient kingdom. Even though that kingdom was usurped by stanely (presumably), he relocated to GW. Now that GW is in trouble, he's most likely running back to the other one. This is exactly what Jillian believes, and is why she was able to spot his retreat (even though she wasn't allowed to attack)


4) WE DON'T KNOW WHAT PARSON'S "SPECIAL" ABILITY IS.

A number of things in his world parallel things in Erfworld. It's possible, however unlikely, that as he was a "Gamemaster" in his own world, that somehow translates into an ability in Erfworld. Uber powers? Who knows? This is still just speculation, but we have to look back at what Stanley wished for when he said what he wanted out of his "Perfect Warlord," because in many cases, he got what he wanted LITERALLY. This is probably the only clues we've got to Parson's "power."

You may refer to that particular comic here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0017.html :D

But the only intriguing one is that Stanely didn't want a 'morale case'. But not really since it's sort of a given that Parson enjoys this sort of thing. Honestly, the 'special' more than likely refers either to his ability to do things at night, or perhaps his ability to do things when it's not his turn. Both of those would be incredibly powerful skills to have in a place like this. I'd rather that than some über-lazer eye attack he's not aware of.

Oh, and his stats aren't visible to anyone. But that's an atribute separate from the 'special'.

[SteveMB]

But we have a pretty good idea. In one of the recountings - I think Jillian's - she talks about where her, Wanda, and Stanley came from.

Stanley? He was "common infantry", and then a warlord, when King Saline ruled in Gobwin Knob, and took over after Saline was croaked in a gobwin revolt (as described in Sizemore's account).


Now that GW is in trouble, he's most likely running back to the other one. This is exactly what Jillian believes, and is why she was able to spot his retreat (even though she wasn't allowed to attack)

That said, it's likely that the ruins of Faq are where Stanley is heading as a bolt-hole.


Honestly, the 'special' more than likely refers either to his ability to do things at night, or perhaps his ability to do things when it's not his turn. Both of those would be incredibly powerful skills to have in a place like this. I'd rather that than some über-lazer eye attack he's not aware of.

Oh, and his stats aren't visible to anyone. But that's an atribute separate from the 'special'.

For all we know, "invisible stats" is his special. However, I have a hunch that it's something more interesting (but not something that would come across as an easy deus ex machina).

[KernelReefer]

I see the win being a combination of tactical genius, personal care, strategic insanity, and some sweet luck.

There are a few things to consider:

1. Lord Hamster has baited Ansom in at least two ways (Part I):
a. The tunnel: he encouraged a tunnel incursion as has been discussed in length. I don't think he needs to win the battle to win the objective. All he needs to do is seal off exits and most importantly, kill Jetstone's access to Ansom. I don't think they have a method for communicating and if Hamster can cut off their ability to communicate and act, he has effectively neutralized them with no force whatsoever; perhaps some guerrilla golem manuevers.
b. The Thinkamancy: obviously a message to upset Ansom, sow fear and discord into the opposing forces, etc. But probably more of a way to touch a nerve in Ansom by revealing a deepseated fear: he clings to nobility and zealously defends it because he probably knows that Lord Hamster is correct. I think this is a double-bluff though: what seemed to be the obvious move--suspicion--is regarded as too heavy-handed to be serious and the "subtle" move set off the character for immediate effect. But I think that it's obviousness might be it's beauty because instead of facing it head-on, Ansom will have (mis)trust in the back of his mind--does he trust the commander of the Jetstones tunnel forces?

This might lead to a conflict where the tunnel forces inability to communicate poisons Ansom from trusting his largest force.

(or)

c. He collapses the Jetstone forces and cripples the Marbits effectively in several turns (creating chokepoints, traps, croak zones, etc.) and then allows Sizemore to take out siege units or crit units of some sort by digging to them.

b. and c. are mutually exclusive because they require Sizemore's full attention. Hamster might want to keep Sizemore close because of his knowledge.

Part II of that is uncroaking an Archon: thinking that Charlie has turned on him (as was explicitly stated) might be enough for Ansom to make some risky moves because of his mistrust--keeping all the elves in reserve and forcing the Sofa King heavies to take heavy losses or whatnot. That would be Sofa King Kool.

He also (obviously) has trust issues with Jillian, and that will likely play a role.

Can Natural Allies defect? I'm guessing they can, and may even be more likely to (no Loyalty score), so putting the Marbits under suspicion (they pervade the columns) would be useful as well.

And that's only a small part of a plan, I'm guessing.

2. It might incorporate the strategy mentioned earlier:
a. Creating a "croak zone" by allowing an intentional breach. An obvious ploy to a rational commander in control of his senses and his rage. Only a few golems need to be kept in the tunnels, so a few of the metal and rock golems could help out in destroying the forces.
b. There would be a contingency involved: fallback positions, repositioning the garrison or creating a wall (can Dirtamancy do that?) so that the breach becomes a salient (they only broke into the fortress to find another set of walls), creating a similar pincer/surround situation at one part of the fortress--the open spot being subject to possibly four touching hexes full of archers.
c. Mathamancy might play a huge role here. Get some use out of the item before he sells it to Charlie, right?

3. Combat bonuses!
a. I'll bet Lord Hamster's combat bonus is high: he commands respect from the game pieces because he understands they aren't game pieces and seems personally invested in their well-being. His presence will probably significantly increase his chances of doing well.
b. In a fortress seeming to specialize in uncroaked units, the croakamancer's bonus WILL be felt. He already used (and might not stop using) his Dirtamancer's bonus.
c. I'm supposing there's a defense bonus, similar to the system used by the Civ III and Civ IV folks. Defending a fortification or high ground gives a unit +x on their combat or defense stat.
d. Stanley's dwagon bonus is probably sweet as well, and his commanding bonus might be high from being such highly ranked and probably a good warrior. This might have an effect.

4. Something interesting will happen with the proper Foolamancy and Stanley; the dragons might Fool's Mate (I doubt it) or he could set up a new capital in Jillian's abandoned land, or at least a base of operations by which to create a distraction. Ultimately, I imagine Stanley is one fantastic fighter, but is obviously a poor strategist, so I don't think he'll set up a second city to pop units. I think instead of Fool's Mate or base relocation/addition, he will wreak some heavy havoc at perhaps an inopportune time, forcing Lord Hamster's hand, but being ultimately beneficial. Jillian will probably be involved, but not in a battle capacity (can you imagine how owned the gwiffons would get? She could take on one dwagon with her combat bonus, but against a stack with Stanley's probably impressive combat bonus? No way).

I guess that shouldn't have been numbered because it's not part of a plan, but it might happen in the plot

It would make sense, stylistically, to keep the dwagons out of combat because we've discovered that a significant air force for the enemy was demolished, and the advantage that the dwagons now have is probably monstrous (archers? Srsly?), so keeping them out highlights Stanley's obstinance, and Hamster's feeling of doom.

Personally, I think exploits will happen, but they'll be a very small part of the battles.

5. This battle, IMO, will likely be won not by demolishing forces, but by playing the players against eachother, which will only include destroying some forces. Making Lord Hamster look like a tactical genius will create some wavering, perhaps? I don't know how far loyalty scores go in terms of morale. At any rate, it would distract from his strategic brilliance of isolating the commanders and forcing the coalition against itself. The constant references to the fact that Ansom can win in one turn, but is waiting (I ge tthe feeling), the 25:1 ratio, and the dwindling forces (leaving dwagons) I think highlight the fact that military solutions are only part of a larger solution.

Some thoughts--uncroak don't just pop; they are uncroaked as well. We know this because all of the Warloads were uncroaked and the one we saw looked like its old counterpart, without the need for pie.

However, the game would have SERIOUS balance issues if Wanda could just recroak the losses of both friends and enemies and use them for shock troops or what have you. An army that grows bigger is attractive, but very hard to beat. She is probably restricted in the same way Maggie was restricted--via the mind. Maggie only had two Thinkamancy messages; similarly Wanda might only get a few resurrections per turn.

Even if the way he treats game pieces as humans is not important in combat, it will probably make for an interesting plot point nonetheless.

[ralphmerridew]

Wanda's limitation is more likely to be that recroaked cannot be reuncroaked.

[KernelReefer]

Wanda's limitation is more likely to be that recroaked cannot be reuncroaked.

Why would that be mutually exclusive? I feel like all games involving necromancers have that rule, so it can be assumed here--my argument is that croakamancy would be a dangerously unbalancing skill (all kingdoms would make it a priority to have one/they'd be ridiculously expensive) if Wanda could uncroak massive amounts of units (say, all the units taken out during a single battle--one at an intentional breach, perhaps).

Massively unbalancing, because an enemy without a croakamancer (read: Ansom's coalition) is doomed absent both quick, targeted strikes at the croakamancers, and massive, crippling croaking without corresponding losses to the other side. Massive, crippling croaking that won't be uncroaked next turn. There can be NO SURVIVORS in a world with mass uncroaking powers because the side that attacks second (defends first) will always be the side that wins, even if the first side had croakamancers, because they have no fodder by which to uncroak units. This is a boopy game mechanic, because it encourages constant turtling.

We know that it takes at least some time, or the last panel of page 98 (comic 108) probably wouldn't have frozen on Wanda's uncroaking of (presumably) Jaclyn. Mind you, it was a literary device, so I suppose it doesn't matter.

So yes, Wanda is limited by not being able to uncroak the recroaked, but setting arbitrary rules for the "one" limit of a certain magic doesn't make a lot of sense, because limits are inherent to the rulemaking (Wanda is also limited by the fact that she is probably not proficient in Dirtamancy, or even the entire category of Stuffamancy). There are multiple limits.

[Roupe]

Well let see, Parson is defending from a easily defended position, and have made his foes send some of their force into the dirt death pit tunnels.

Not to mention the crap & dirt golem´s probably is a renewable force (as long as theire is magic and dirt resources.

True Parsons number of forces is currently outnumbered, BUT, his croakamancer is up and running and will probably raise an army -pun intended.

Kill foes with golems in the death pit, raise the causalities and eventually Paroson´s forces will outnumber Ansons.

[KernelReefer]

Well let see, Parson is defending from a easily defended position, and have made his foes send some of their force into the dirt death pit tunnels.

Not to mention the crap & dirt golem´s probably is a renewable force (as long as theire is magic and dirt resources.

True Parsons number of forces is currently outnumbered, BUT, his croakamancer is up and running and will probably raise an army -pun intended.

Kill foes with golems in the death pit, raise the causalities and eventually Paroson´s forces will outnumber Ansons.

:smallsigh: See above.

That's probably too simple. In fact, it seems so simplistic that I can't believe Parsons or Wanda hasn't mentioned it--even Stanley should have picked up on the uncroaking the croaked ability. The exposition of the series so far has been to functionally prove that the solution is probably not that obvious, or Stanley and Parsons wouldn't be worried at all.

They only have 210 uncroaked infantry (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html) and they've lost 11 cities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0005.html). If she can mass uncroak entire armies, stacks, etc. she would have when they lost those cities. We know that she had the opportunity to because she uncroaked the warlords. The fact that only 210 exist (especially because some were probably popped) after a coalition of thousands rolled through 11 cities strikes me as a strong suggestion that Wanda can't uncroak massive amounts of troops, maybe not even an entire stack in one turn. And outside of that, why would they have lost 11 cities anyway? Sure, they weren't the perfect defensive positions, but it follows the same simplicity as described above. Stanley's a Tool, sure, but he can understand enough to uncroak those troops and Wanda would have advised him to allow her to uncroak the troops.

This is probably why it would be massively unbalancing. The scenario you present proves why it can't happen. The game mechanic would be too easy for those with croakamancers. Always attack 2nd, always defend first, never be aggressive. That would lead to a crappy game.

[Roupe]

Stanly lost the other cities, due to not having a good warlord and spending more effort questing than winning territories.

yes Im thinking of the turtling tactic, and yes it would lead to a crappy game, but a survivable and winnable game. Parson is just the type of person that would use the game mechanics to exploit unbalanced features. Croakamancy seems to be one of those.

[KernelReefer]

I agree that losing the territories has a lot to do with Stanley's choice of warlords and his inability to focus. But part of that loss would involve a COLOSSAL failure to realize that croaked units can be uncroaked in mass quantities. Presumably, most of the territories weren't lose in a single turn. That means that there was at least one turn where Wanda could have uncroaked an army of new soldiers. There is no reason Stanley wouldn't order this, or more importantly, that Wanda wouldn't advise it. In a world where you can uncroak armies, a Croakamancer's main job would be just that. Why have Wanda on staff if she didn't uncroak massive amounts of units?

There are several reasons I think that she can't uncroak armies:

1. Would've done so by now--see above.

2. Parsons would have mentioned it.
3. Sizemore would've mentioned it.
4. Stanley would've attempted to tell Wanda to do it.
5. Wanda would've mentioned it.

Not once, in a tactical discussion did anyone even reference the idea that Parsons could/should do it. But there's more:

6. Story indicates this is a HARD scenario. What you present as a solution is simple. Far too simple.
7. You think Stanley/Wanda/Sizemore/Parsons would even be worried in a scenario where they could uncroak stacks upon stacks of fallen soldiers? They think they are seriously booped. This is part of the reason that Stanley dressed up in KISS uniform and fled.
8. There's only 210 uncroaked units, and only the warlords have been permanently croaked.

I think the most compelling argument for why she can't uncroak to create an army is simply in the game mechanic itself.


yes Im thinking of the turtling tactic, and yes it would lead to a crappy game, but a survivable and winnable game.

I'm not arguing that a turtling tactic isn't the way to go in this particular scenario. I'm arguing that for the purposes of the entire game design that there would be no situation where any player would ever attack. Ever. It's suicide. A game designer would know this and parse out problems like this. In fact, whenever game designers have to choose between encouraging defensive or offensive actions, they generally choose encouraging offense. This is definitely true in soccer/football (The Away Goals rule; the gradual weakening of the offsides standard over the decades). Aggression is literally a SCORE in head-to-head fights (boxing, battlebots). Defense isn't.

When thinking of the game's rules, we have to think about it beyond this particular scenario. There is a designer to this game. I believe that this game will eventually be sold, as well. This isn't the only scenario for battle within the game's context--just the specific story we've been presented. Uncroaking breaks the game for reasons discussed above. To summarize:

1. Turtling can work in this scenario, no problem
2. But, there are other scenarios. Every scenario would be a turtle in a world where massive uncroaking happens.
3. Game rules are universal across scenarios
4. We can't have that because it's a really really boopy game.

This is a game. For Parson, it might be about surviving. Parson doesn't get to set the rules anymore. For the game designer, it's about fun. Fun necessitates balance necessitates the prevention of this tactic.

As for my larger arg list:

9. Creates a bad game mechanic; breaks the game horribly. This is true outside of our scenario, because we HAVE to consider the existence of other battles/campaigns when we design a world.
10. Runs against the grain of game design wisdom. Designers want to encourage risk-taking and aggressive strategies.
11. The perspective we should take isn't one of "what would be best for Parson" in guessing/arguing game rules. It should be "what would be best for the game."


Parson is just the type of person that would use the game mechanics to exploit unbalanced features

Yes. Yes he would. But first, those unbalanced features have to exist. Second, this is way beyond an exploit. Discovering that "Hold Person" also applies to demigods and winning a campaign because of repeated use of that spell is an exploit. Giving a fighter 10% spell resistance per level is a bad game mechanic. There's a difference.

People would discover and use the exploit if they were smart. No one would be anything but a fighter in a world where the bad mechanic is true. It breaks the game. This is on par with giving that fighter impossible spell resistance. It is not an exploit, it's a bad mechanic. So further:

12. Exploits exist (see: Ansom), but they don't break the game. Especially because I suspect you only get one turn a day and the Jillian trick would be rebalanced to losing that extra turn if she reallied with Jetstone. This breaks the game.
13. "Unbalanced" is treating it a bit lightly. Grossly and abyssmally unfair is a bit more accurate.


Croakamancy seems to be one of those.

Why? What proof of there is that? There's nothing in the narrative that seems to indicate that Wanda or any Croakamancer can raise entire armies. The story seems to indicate otherwise:

14. When Wanda raised Manpower the Temporary, she probably would've used that opportunity to raise his army, too. She didn't.
15. Wanda's raising of Jaclyn (presumably) seems to indicate it's a one-on-one thing. She must be next to the body she's uncroaking, and it seems to take some time.
16. Even if Wanda gets to raise as many as she wants to from a rules standpoint, why wouldn't Parson be restricted by the number of Shmuckers such an action would cost? Their treasury was at about 500,000 at the beginning and dropped to 150,000 to bring Parson back. He had to spend Shmuckers for the Thinkamancy with Maggie, too if I recall correctly. I'll argue that this is irrelevant because I don't think Wanda can raise a lot anyways--but IF it's true, there's a Shmuckers restriction.

I haven't found a single reason it SHOULD be true, and you only offer reasons why it's not NOT true. Give a positive argument for why it's true instead of a negative argument about why all my arguments might not be true.

The only reason I can find is that "it would help Parson," but that's all the more reason I would think otherwise. He can't have it too easy:

17. The story would be insanely BORING if this were merely going to be a war of attrition where we watch Parson perform the same tactic over and over again for several pages (However, the updates would be really booping fast; copy-paste would cut photoshopping time to 1/8 of what was needed, I'm sure). Comics don't do that, and Erfworld is an insanely intelligent one, so I doubt it would be that boring.

There are narrative reasons, metagame reasons, ingame reasons, reasons of logical consistency, and metastory reasons for why Wanda should not be able to uncroak a booping army.

Until there is not only a reasonable response to all five categories of reasons it shouldn't be true AND a positive reason for why it should be true, I don't see a compelling case for uncroaking an army.

[BarGamer]

This speculation is built upon a lot of assumptions. Since we know that
Uncroaked eventually become useless, become eaten by other undead, and are lost in battle (again), and GK only has 210 Uncroaked after 11 cities fell, that gives us a figure of at least 20 Uncroaked in the time each city fell. Assuming 3-4 turns is a quick loss, and 20 turns is a very slow loss, and we'll get a figure of a measly 1 Uncroaked a turn, which is all that we've observed so far, or as many as 5-7 or more. The number could be higher, given that Uncroaked eventually become useless, get eaten, or are lost in battle.

Personally, I think Wanda is as good at Croakamancy as Maggie is at Thinkamancy, so I'm voting for about 2-4 Uncroaked a turn, down to 1 if the Uncroaked is a Warlord or say, an Archon. :)

[Charlicat]

:smallsigh: See above.

...The fact that only 210 exist (especially because some were probably popped) after a coalition of thousands rolled through 11 cities strikes me as a strong suggestion that Wanda can't uncroak massive amounts of troops, maybe not even an entire stack in one turn.

...Why have Wanda on staff if she didn't uncroak massive amounts of units?

...14. When Wanda raised Manpower the Temporary, she probably would've used that opportunity to raise his army, too. She didn't.



The more reasonable mechanic explanation is that the Croakamancer must be in the same hex (probably up close and personal) to Uncroak units...evidence when Stanley called Wanda on the iBook to uncroak Manpower. Unless the 11 cities were all within one-turn-on-a-green-dwagon move, Wanda couldn't be in all places to uncroak all losses. Remember that croaked units evaporate at the end of the turn (hence why Sizemore thought Parson was weird when he gave Misty a burial). It is important for Wanda to reach the courtyard ASAP THIS TURN because Ansom controls when his turn ends and the day flips, and the ability to Uncroak an airforce evaporates.

I would also speculate that uncroaking is like a spell, and thus Wanda can only cast so many spells/uncroak so many units per turn based on her personal power level.

As to why have a Croakamancer on staff if not to uncroak a massive number of units? Well, it's not always a large quantity that counts...it's also the quality. The ability to retain a Warlord after death is HUGE, given the investment a kingdom spends in popping/promoting a unit up to Warlord level in the 1st place. We also have yet to see if uncroaking a special unit (like an Archon) leads to a high-quality uncroaked unit that retains unique/advantageous powers beyond becoming simple infantry.

Also, Manpower was croaked outside Gobwin Knob. They dragged his corpse back to be uncroaked. (assumption) Unless they drug ALL the corpses back from Manpower's army, that would limit what Wanda could uncroak.

[Charlicat]

He had to spend Shmuckers for the Thinkamancy with Maggie, too if I recall correctly.

Actually, the only shmuckers Parson has to spend for Thinkagrams is on Maggie's upkeep. The reason Jillian and the Coalition forces spend schmuckers on Thinkagrams is because they are going through an Archon, aka Charlescomm, aka mercenary entity. It's like the difference between owning a cell phone with a service plan, and paying for a long distance call on a payphone.

[BarGamer]

Actually, the only shmuckers Parson has to spend for Thinkagrams is on Maggie's upkeep. The reason Jillian and the Coalition forces spend schmuckers on Thinkagrams is because they are going through an Archon, aka Charlescomm, aka mercenary entity. It's like the difference between owning a cell phone with a service plan, and paying for a long distance call on a payphone.

But you also have to deal with dropped calls. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0102.html)

[KernelReefer]

The more reasonable mechanic explanation is that the Croakamancer must be in the same hex (probably up close and personal) to Uncroak units...evidence when Stanley called Wanda on the iBook to uncroak Manpower.

I'm willing to concede that that is a somewhat reasonable limitation on Croakamancy--and it's not much different than what I originally proposed, only a few spells a day.


Unless the 11 cities were all within one-turn-on-a-green-dwagon move, Wanda couldn't be in all places to
uncroak all losses.


I think that assumes that all the cities were lost at once. I doubt more than two were being attacked at a time. Wanda seems to imply as much (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0005.html) because "questing" is probably not a 3 turn process. Wanda only had to be at one of the cities at the time if your theory is true (and it makes sense that the hex restriction falls within the realm of limitations, I just argue that her Croakamancy is even more limited).



Remember that croaked units evaporate at the end of the turn (hence why Sizemore thought Parson was weird when he gave Misty a burial).

Here, there seems to be a bit of a logical inconsistency. Not with your argument; just with what we know. Lord Manpower the Temporary died at Warchalking, and therefore had to be uncroaked that turn. When this was happening, Wanda was at Gobwin Keep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0002.html). That means Wanda has one-turn access to get Lord Manpower the Temporary and uncroak him. She managed to do this to every single Warlord they lost. This implies a few things. Either:
a) all of the Warlords lost at the same time, and Wanda could grab ALL of them in the one turn they lost. And then proceeded to uncroak all of them after that. Still in the same turn.
b) they all croaked on different turns, but all croaked within 1 turn of where ever Wanda was at at the time (does not have to be GK--she can uncroak the units and then order a hasty retreat).

But you argue that it's a bit absurd for us to consider that Wanda has a one-turn access. She had to have had reasonable one turn access to them in order for us to see Leeroy Jenkins and Lady Phat-singh as well as Lord Manpower.

Which leads to the conclusion of my argument (phew), that she needs to have a restriction besides the within-her-hex restriction, because she still had (theoretically) one turn access to these Warlords and therefore the troops that were in her/their hexes.

I think this is further bolstered by the strong (IMO) speculation that these battles lasted more than a turn, particularly because Ansom likes to bring all his forces to bear before mauling his targets. Therefore, there was at least one or two turns of casualties where Wanda had an opportunity to raise some hell (pun TOTALLY intended).

Also, presumably, she was at SOME of these battles. It would be kind of odd (but not too horrifically surprising, I guess) if she wasn't. She was close, suffice to say.

Alternatively, both a) and b) could be wrong and just chalked up to c) OOPS Erfworld may have made a mistake. I wouldn't hold it against Rob Balder--we're really pushing the minutiae.



It is important for Wanda to reach the courtyard ASAP THIS TURN because Ansom controls when his turn ends and the day flips, and the ability to Uncroak an airforce evaporates.


What? It's Parson/Stanley/Wanda's turn right now. Jillian/Transylvito went, got mauled, fled and now it's GK's turn. Then it's Ansom. They aren't on an Ansom-dependent schedule right now (in terms of spellcasting, anyway). Also, if it was Ansom's turn right now, she wouldn't be able to cast spells.



I would also speculate that uncroaking is like a spell, and thus Wanda can only cast so many spells/uncroak so many units per turn based on her personal power level.


Agreed. I just don't think it'll ever be a high number. I'm still pushing for the number of units uncroaked to be 1 per turn, but I don't really care so long as it stays very low.



As to why have a Croakamancer on staff if not to uncroak a massive number of units? Well, it's not always a large quantity that counts...it's also the quality. The ability to retain a Warlord after death is HUGE, given the investment a kingdom spends in popping/promoting a unit up to Warlord level in the 1st place. We also have yet to see if uncroaking a special unit (like an Archon) leads to a high-quality uncroaked unit that retains unique/advantageous powers beyond becoming simple infantry.


Fair enough, but you still have to admit that in a world where mass uncroaking technology has been unleashed, we'd see MANY MANY uncroaked units. And that they wouldn't be in this position--it wouldn't be Stanley's ineptitude, because he apparently left Wanda in charge.




Also, Manpower was croaked outside Gobwin Knob. They dragged his corpse back to be uncroaked. (assumption) Unless they drug ALL the corpses back from Manpower's army, that would limit what Wanda could uncroak.

Well, either way, had to have happened in less than a turn, right?

I still argue that even with a hex restriction, there needs to be a spell restriction, probably of 1-3 units a day or so, but certainly not stacks of units. I'd also believe 2-4 units, maxing at around 5. With spell restrictions the higher up you go in leveling.

Is GK all on one Hex? Bogroll has a move of 0 and can move anywhere in the Keep. But the tunnels that seem to run below the Keep are almost definitely several hexes (or the several points of entry in the honeycombed caves doesn't make too much sense).

Either way, I think that it's fairly evident that uncroaking the attacking army to eventually outnumber it is not going to be the Croakamancy strategy.

[Freederick]

Also, Manpower was croaked outside Gobwin Knob. They dragged his corpse back to be uncroaked. (assumption) Unless they drag ALL the corpses back from Manpower's army, that would limit what Wanda could uncroak.

The assumption is wrong. Manpower was uncroaked outside of GK, then airlifted as an uncroaked unit--see panel 2 here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0003.html). Not that it matters much in the discussion at hand. Wholesale uncroaking seems to be out, else Wanda would have salvaged (a large portion of) Manpower's army as well. http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb99/Freederick/smallindifferent.gif

[Bilgore]

Uncroaked are ineffective against Ansom--remember the power of the arkenpliers?

Crap golems, on the other hand...are still something we haven't seen in action, so it's too easy to underestimate them.

[datalaughing]

Here, there seems to be a bit of a logical inconsistency. Not with your argument; just with what we know. Lord Manpower the Temporary died at Warchalking, and therefore had to be uncroaked that turn. When this was happening, Wanda was at Gobwin Keep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0002.html). That means Wanda has one-turn access to get Lord Manpower the Temporary and uncroak him. She managed to do this to every single Warlord they lost. This implies a few things. Either:
a) all of the Warlords lost at the same time, and Wanda could grab ALL of them in the one turn they lost. And then proceeded to uncroak all of them after that. Still in the same turn.
b) they all croaked on different turns, but all croaked within 1 turn of where ever Wanda was at at the time (does not have to be GK--she can uncroak the units and then order a hasty retreat).

You're forgetting a small but crucial detail here. Allow me to quote this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0084.html). "He's fairly convinced I'm batboop crazy now, since corpses which aren't uncroaked or moved just dissapear at the start of the next turn." If they dragged all the warlords back, Wanda would never have had to leave GK. She may never have been near any of the other cities or battle sites.

[SteveMB]

Lord Manpower the Temporary died at Warchalking, and therefore had to be uncroaked that turn. When this was happening, Wanda was at Gobwin Keep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0002.html). That means Wanda has one-turn access to get Lord Manpower the Temporary and uncroak him. She managed to do this to every single Warlord they lost.

Why would you assume that? Maybe she didn't, and that's part of the reason they only had five uncroaked warlords out of an original eleven-city-empire-sized corps of live ones. (Of course, part of the reason is that uncroaked units decay, but we don't know how fast that happens beyond "not so fast that they've lost any that way so far during the story".)

[Aergoth]

I don't know if size was covered, but back here: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0016.html
We see Parson's game, which is apparently incredibly similar to Gobwin Knob.
The "Erf-Knob" is huge, it takes up at least two dozen hexes.

[Lamech]

And the crap golems seem to be the weakest golems that they have. Of course, that assumes the units are listed generally in order of increasing power (cost? I would say population, but the number 2 at the bottom ruins that) top to bottom. Population implies power, anyway. And I think a Soft Rock Golem is probably less powerful than a Hard Rock Golem. Who knows?


I would like to see those golems in action. Maybe they are still sweet and powerful? I would enjoy that.
The order of the list seems to be population with warlords last. The warlords would ruin it anyway. If they were stronger than a caster, Jillian would have been blasted in to oblivion over the water hex, and Ansom and Vinny. Also the pikers are probably more powerful than stabbers since their listed as high/mid level instead of mid level. Although I agree that crap are the weakest, GK should have plenty of crap, so if they were stronger they would be the only built.

My .02 smuckers on the croakmancy debate:
I also suspect that the magic casters have a limit on the magic per turn; it wouldn't make sense if Sizemore could cast magic endlessly, or Ansom have a couple thousand rock golems headed his way. Despite the limit per turn, magic can probably be stored too, in scrolls or those air defenses Wanda toasted the air units with, and casters can apparently make magic items that can work specific magic too, so Parson could very well be able to uncroak thousands of units, and don't forget he has that portal to the magic kingdom and a decent supply of funds.

[Suoli]

Here's my guess: Ansom is trying or at least seems to be trying a two-pronged attack. It will be revealed that Parson has already deployed most of GK's forces in the tunnels to cripple the Alliance force that was supposed to divide GK's defense. At the end of the turn he will redeploy everything to the outer walls. This is why it was stressed that Ansom won't attack the walls until he has his whole column and that redeploying within the city doesn't expend movement.

This, as Parson himself said, is a pretty obvious thing to do so I expect a couple of twists.

[SauroGrenom]

I posted my theory over in the general thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4492006#post4492006)for the klog post.

[Leewei]

I think Parson's planning a sortie through the tunnels (and the weak invading force there) to destroy the remainder of the siege engines.

[Yodimus]

Here's my guess: Ansom is trying or at least seems to be trying a two-pronged attack. It will be revealed that Parson has already deployed most of GK's forces in the tunnels to cripple the Alliance force that was supposed to divide GK's defense. At the end of the turn he will redeploy everything to the outer walls. This is why it was stressed that Ansom won't attack the walls until he has his whole column and that redeploying within the city doesn't expend movement.

This, as Parson himself said, is a pretty obvious thing to do so I expect a couple of twists.

Though I think, considering the most recent Klog, that those twists are all going to be things that Parson does right now. I'm not really sure why Ansom would feel the need to trick Parson at this point, anyway. From his perspective, Parson's in a classic tic-tac-toe situation, where any move results in a Fail.

[Freederick]

Here's my take on the "Victory for Evil in 15 Easy Steps" master plan. :smallamused:

Sizemore holds off the tunnel force, with traps and whatever, until the siege force breaks through the (undefended) outer wall.
The siege force floods into the city, pushing along siege engines, in order to assault the garrison wall.
All defenders are withdrawn into the garrison complex.
The tunnels are massively collapsed under the city outside of the garrison. Rifts open throughout the city as it falls into the tunnels (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0086.html).
The Jetstone troops in the tunnels die.
Many besiegers in the city fall into the rifts and die.
The siege engines fall into the rifts, and are wrecked.
With no siege engines, the garrison wall cannot be breached (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html).
The Coalition exerts a last-ditch attempt to reduce the garrison with airborne troops.
Stanley returns with the dwagons, driving off the air force and saving the day.
A stalemate ensues, but...
...the Jetstones have been nearly wiped out in the tunnel collapse, and...
...the rest of the Coalition has been badly hurt.
Ignoring the now-insignificant Jetstone, Parson negotiates a peace with the Coalition leaders.
End of Chapter 1. :smalltongue:


The one sticking point is at step 4: the tunnels must be collapsed close enough to the garrison wall to engulf the siege engines, but precisely enough that the garrison wall is itself untouched. That would take some tricky demolition engineering. :smallconfused:

[Nobody]

I think that there is an important point missing.

Turn Order.

First, lets start with the set-up.

1) Parson has lured forces into the city tunnels. The important part to note here, is that the forces are within the city RIGHT NOW. I will get to that in a moment.

2) Parson has sown the seeds of mistrust in Ansom. I don't think that it is coincidence that only Ansom's marbit and Jetstone forces were sent into the tunnels. I think that Ansom is worried about a betrayal, and has decided that he will only use commanders that he knows he can trust. I don't think that we will see that take shape, I think that we have seen it already.

Jillian, although regarded here often as untrustworthy, seems to have Ansom's absolute faith. So does Webinar. Thats why superior commanders haven't taken Webinar's place, and it's why Jillian is leading the task force to kill Stanley. Ansom doesn't know who to trust.

3) Right now, Ansom's forces have already moved. I'm not sure, but I think that Parson's forces can still move around the city. Because the city counts as free move for Parson's forces, he can "deploy and re-deploy" his forces even when it isn't his turn, because he isn't using move.

I think that on this turn, before night-fall, Parson is going to attack the tunnel units with everything he has. Using hit-and-run tactics, and overwhelming force tactics, Parson could conceivably keep almost all of his units alive (although heavily injured) while killing most of Ansom's forces underground.

Then, when dawn occurs, Parson's units will be healed up. If there are any underground forces left alive on Ansom's side, Parson, using overwhelming-force tactics again, can clean up the remaining underground siege with little-to-no damage to himself, and then redeploy his entire army as an adequate defense against Ansom's attack, adding to that number, any extra forces that Wanda can uncroak from Ansom's underground siege.

If Parson works fast enough, Ansom may not even realize that he has lost his underground siege, before he has committed everything to the breach of the outer walls.

Some Extra tricks parson could use:

Parson could use the thinkamancer and foolamancer to send a think-a-gram from "Ansom" telling Webinar to make some bad tactical decisions.

Parson, after his units re-healed, could come out of the tunnels, and hit Ansom's forces from behind, catching them from both sides.


-Nobody

[SteveMB]

I think that on this turn, before night-fall, Parson is going to attack the tunnel units with everything he has. Using hit-and-run tactics, and overwhelming force tactics, Parson could conceivably keep almost all of his units alive (although heavily injured) while killing most of Ansom's forces underground.

Then, when dawn occurs, Parson's units will be healed up. If there are any underground forces left alive on Ansom's side, Parson, using overwhelming-force tactics again, can clean up the remaining underground siege with little-to-no damage to himself, and then redeploy his entire army as an adequate defense against Ansom's attack, adding to that number, any extra forces that Wanda can uncroak from Ansom's underground siege.

He can move units around within GK off-turn, but everything we know about how Erfworld works indicates that he can't initiate attacks off-turn.

One oddity: If the plan to have Jillian's pursuit force ally with Transylvito so that they get a turn at dawn before Stanley's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0103.html) is still in effect, then both Parson and Stanley will find that they aren't starting their turn at dawn as expected. Do they automagically know about the introduction of the new turn into the cycle, or do they have to figure out what happened?

That said, Parson still has his turn coming up before Ansom's, and can hit the units in the tunnels and then redeploy to the walls before Ansom can react. He won't get to heal the resulting damage before Ansom's turn, but note that the strength of the walls is determined by the number of units on them (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0109.html). If that means what I think it might mean (siege attacks don't directly damage the defending units, at least not unless and until the walls fall) the fact that Parson's units don't get to heal their tunnel-fighting damage is not really a problem.


Some Extra tricks parson could use:

Parson could use the thinkamancer and foolamancer to send a think-a-gram from "Ansom" telling Webinar to make some bad tactical decisions.

Unless Wanda has the right Foolamancy spells, he doesn't have that option. However, if the business with the "excessive force" attack on the Marbit scouts (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0097.html) has successfully lured the tunnel incursion force into a kill zone trap, he doesn't need to use any further deceptions in that direction.

[Suicide Junkie]

If he can move his troops around inside the city any time, then he can initiate combat anytime he wants, simply by moving troops from the walls to the tunnels.
He can also retreat even when it is not his turn, by moving units from the tunnels to the walls.

This could really throw off the alliance unless siege warfare is common enough for the idea to come up before.

[Richbin]

"Parson could use the thinkamancer and foolamancer to send a think-a-gram from "Ansom" telling Webinar to make some bad tactical decisions."

I wholeheartedly concurr with this, especially as Wanda knows different magics, and that Charlie is not supplying the allinace with magical defenses. This was made clear a few times...

The idea of striking the units and moving to the walls is clearly the strategy.
Coupled with the fact that Parsons' move might not be restricted as the others' (he gets tired, they do not, but perhaps he can move at other times...?)

I just hope that Webinar might be able to tunnel under the siege engines and cause their untimely destruction, or that the uncroaked flying units can aid/distract from above while this is going on...

I wonder how come Stanley is already at dusk, whereas everyone else is at dawn... or perhaps the reverse is true. Stanley has travelled so far West, that dawn has not yet broken over there, whereas it has over in GK?

I wonder if troops can be buried in crap? Siemore has been accumulating it for years... oh poo... perish the thought.

I wonder how much of a strategic/tactical advantage 'digging in' gives, that Ansom actually beleives that to be the better tactic?

What if Parson also splits his forces up in order to benefiot from turn splitting... could that benefit him somehow?

Maggie needs to get the Foolamancer name to Stanley. Joker? As the jokers' real name was never known, maybe his name is Heath? or maybe following the movie, Jack (for jack Napier), or Jester, or Nester (as he refers to Nuncle as opposed to Uncle... bah... bring him back already. I actually want Stanley to surprise everyone and kick butt. I like the underdog, and like he says - everyone is against him...

Man do I ever look forward to this webcomic.
DFar too much to be healthy...
Go Erf!

[Freederick]

If Parson works fast enough, Ansom may not even realize that he has lost his underground siege, before he has committed everything to the breach of the outer walls.

This cannot work; it appears that Ansom gets automated reports (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0058.html) on the results of engagements, including casualty counts, so he'll know that his units are getting booped in the tunnels, and what the losses are. Otherwise, a good plan. :smallsmile:

[SteveMB]

This cannot work; it appears that Ansom gets automated reports (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0058.html) on the results of engagements, including casualty counts, so he'll know that his units are getting booped in the tunnels, and what the losses are. Otherwise, a good plan. :smallsmile:

Ansom's initial victory reports were based on his intel assets (Marbit scout units using Natural Thinkamancy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0094.html)?) -- note Vinny's skepticism and Ansom's reply that their intel isn't that bad within the column. However, the "unit report" received (apparently at the end of Stanley's turn) appears to be a basic game function listing the units on his side (kind of like what Parson got in his Stupid Meals, but detailed enough to show that Ansom's siege units had been singled out and pwned).

Parson took advantage of Ansom's scout-unit intel (both its capabilities and its limitations) with the tactic of stomping one Marbit scout stack so that it looked like they's encountered the main garrison stack.

[Freederick]

I'd like to amend my "Victory for Evil in 15 Easy Steps" master plan by inserting the following steps:

9a. Ansom spearheads the airborne incursion, and is the first enemy unit to actually break into the Tower of Efdup...
9b. ...only to be fatally kicked down the stairs by Parson at the high tide mark of the crisis.

It doesn't substantially affect the plan itself, but adds an element of poetic justice. :smallwink:

[zaxon]

If he can move his troops around inside the city any time, then he can initiate combat anytime he wants, simply by moving troops from the walls to the tunnels.
He can also retreat even when it is not his turn, by moving units from the tunnels to the walls.

This could really throw off the alliance unless siege warfare is common enough for the idea to come up before.

This makes sense since troops that are not led by a warlord must auto-attack when they meet an enemy.
Parson can just shuffle his troops around in the City (tunnels) before his turn begins and eliminate non-lead stacks.

[the_tick_rules]

Well since the alliance would have to know they can move freely I'm sure tactics have been made to counter that. Cities have been sieged before in the game. But Ansom isn't using any in-depth tactics. He seems to be just expecting to push the city over.

[Suicide Junkie]

Well, not all cities would have tunnels, and it is the best defensive position in the world, so it should last at least a turn or two (giving an opportunity to even do the shuffle).

If the walls are taken first, as is standard protocol according to Webinar, then shuffling troops wouldn't help much anyways.

Thusly, I think this could be a surprise. At least as much of a surprise as the hit and run dwagon strategy.

[Sofaking]

I don't know if it has been mentioned but perhaps he will send out all the uncroaked air units on a suicide mission to attack the siege units.

[Justyn]

I'd like to amend my "Victory for Evil in 15 Easy Steps" master plan by inserting the following steps:

9a. Ansom spearheads the airborne incursion, and is the first enemy unit to actually break into the Tower of Efdup...
9b. ...only to be fatally kicked down the stairs by Parson at the high tide mark of the crisis.

It doesn't substantially affect the plan itself, but adds an element of poetic justice. :smallwink:

How ignominious an end for a prince wielding a divine weapon and all geared up for battle.

Stanley: "So, Hamster, you are telling me that you defeated Ansom?"
Parson: "With one blow."
Stanley: "With one blow... I find that hard to believe".
Parson: "Hey, I'm holding the Arkenpliers, arn't I?"

[VariaVespasa]

This makes sense since troops that are not led by a warlord must auto-attack when they meet an enemy.
Parson can just shuffle his troops around in the City (tunnels) before his turn begins and eliminate non-lead stacks.

I dont think it said he can move anything outside his own turn, just that moving stuff inside the city is free. So he cant rampage on Ansom during Ansoms turn. Plus, combat involves moving into the enemies hex, not adjacent to it, and again, you cant initiate combat outside your own turn, except for the whole "warlord choses/choses not to engage" thing. No idea if initiating combat costs movement or not, beyond the cost of moving into the enemy hex. There are some systems out there where it does have a cost. We will see.

[Richbin]

How ignominious an end for a prince wielding a divine weapon and all geared up for battle.

Stanley: "So, Hamster, you are telling me that you defeated Ansom?"
Parson: "With one blow."
Stanley: "With one blow... I find that hard to believe".
Parson: "Hey, I'm holding the Arkenpliers, arn't I?"

Speaking of that...
It just occurred to me now - Parson is just the right size to wield those pliers as they were meant to be used, and he certainly does twist the rules...
Stanley was kind of right - Ansom is bringing the pliers to GK, but not to him. He's bringing the pliers to Lord Hamster.

[Savant]

You know, Wanda blew all of thier air defenses to smoke as much as that air group as possible. Why? And why was she in a hurry to get to the courtyard as fast as possible?

Here's why: because you have a large amount of croaked units and a very skillful Croakamancer.

With a newly formed Uncroaked Air Unit, and the rest of the Coalition Air Units chasing after Stanley, you have a unprotected column that is split between surface and underground operations.

Uncroaked Air Unit wipes out what's left of the Seige Units, and the combination of Sizemore's Golems and the Uncroaked Units wipe out Marbit's forces underground. With the surfrace units unable to seige GK, and the underground a mass graveyard for a talented Croakamancer, the Coalition pulls back to consider it's options.

[The_JJ]

Problem w/ uncroaked air taking out siege, no warlords, no selective targeting.

Bigger issue: Gobwin Knob irrelevant if Stanly goes down.
Solution a. foolmancer works just in time.
Solution b. Jillion has second thoughts, sparked by Wanda's lake of mind control etc. Why? Faq not destroyed by Stanly, but was 'rescued' or cannibalized by him post destruction.
Solution c. Stanly is going no where near Faq. Suicide run on Jetstone?

Parson's win if Stanly survives, will most likely involve either the further destruction of the coalition during his turn w/ more thinkagrams and/or his own presence in the game (he's statless and therefore potentially infinitely powerful, limited only by his 'real world' strength which is considerable considering his relative size. Don't forget his shiny new sword.)
Straight up 'Stalingrad' maximizing kill ratios etc. won't cut it.

[Savant]

Ahh but Casters can act as Warlords, they just never do because they have no leadership bonus. Wanda on the other hand, gives a substantial bonus to Uncroaked Units. :smallsmile:

What I think is going to happen with Stanley is he's going to pull off something shrewed. Chances are I think he's going to turn tail and run... or that Arkenhammer of his is going to save his boop.

Alternative endings of course means Hamster surrenders, I'm thinking probably to Charlie, although he's no longer hired by Jetstone so it could be a bit difficult, or he surrenders to the Prince, who captures him and gives him to Charlie as payment for his assistance.

[The_JJ]

Ah, forgot about the casters. :smallbiggrin:
Still, Parson was obviously planning something before that, so it's more like a bonus, not the plan itself.

[Tyrmatt]

I'd imagine it's implied that Charlie is a type of caster as his Thinkamancy powers seem to come from him and his control of the Arkendish rather than a lackey a la Don King or Parson. Also note that Stanley contacts Maggie from the field with a directed conversation rather than "Natural" Thinkamancy, suggesting the possibility of there being a low level spell ability being obtainable by others

[Zolem]

Problem w/ uncroaked air taking out siege, no warlords, no selective targeting.

Bigger issue: Gobwin Knob irrelevant if Stanly goes down.
Solution a. foolmancer works just in time.
Solution b. Jillion has second thoughts, sparked by Wanda's lake of mind control etc. Why? Faq not destroyed by Stanly, but was 'rescued' or cannibalized by him post destruction.
Solution c. Stanly is going no where near Faq. Suicide run on Jetstone?

Parson's win if Stanly survives, will most likely involve either the further destruction of the coalition during his turn w/ more thinkagrams and/or his own presence in the game (he's statless and therefore potentially infinitely powerful, limited only by his 'real world' strength which is considerable considering his relative size. Don't forget his shiny new sword.)
Straight up 'Stalingrad' maximizing kill ratios etc. won't cut it.

1) 2 uncroaked warlords left the people constantly forget (Ferdinand and Leeroy Jenkins), + Wanda (doubt that though, not worth the risk). Also, smaller number of guards (as most troops are outside the wall) = more vulnerable siege. Just need to weaken the siege, not neseceraly take them all out. Fighting at the wall can be used to further damage it.

2) Doubt the suicide run, but I have thought several times that Stanly might not be heading to Faq. Perhaps to the Zanzemus that he wiped out, or some other city he destroyed in the past.

3) Parson might be giant, but he's fat and out of shape. Also, equipment tends to provide bonuses, so his sword might actually boost his Leadership, or maybe give him some other effect....I wonder if he can learn what items do with his 3-D glassess.

4) Special, for those talking about mass uncroaks, it has been stated that Mages have limits and get tired. I'm guessing MP, or the like. As such, Wanda can only uncroak so manny pets per turn, and at the start of the new turn, all croaked vanish. As such, she only has limited utility. Also, she has to be there to do it. That is why there is onl 210 uncroaked despite losing 11 cities.

[ahzreal]

The idea that the uncroaked being a huge help for Parson is.. not exactly true. The arkenpliers, as i recall, destroy the uncroaked. That kind of eliminates almost any stragedy using them. Regardless, it does look like Parson has the edge here.

[glenstorm74]

I don't think the arkenpliers completely counter an undead force. Any strategy invovling the pliers requires that Ansom be on the front line. I can't think of any better situation for GK than for Ansom to put himself in a position to be croaked. I'm certain Wanda would take advantage of that tactical blunder.

[Lamech]

I agree Ansom on the front lines would be a disaster, a suggestion spell (followed by backlash) or mind control spell would take out Ansom (assuming they can be cast in battle). Wanda can probably aim a death spell at Ansom, and Sizemore might be able to have the ground crush Ansom or cut him off from allies. And 32 arrows, a archon, and three unipegatuars might not help too much either. Also those knights which everyone seems so afraid of could probably kill him if he isn't ready to fight them.

And then Wanda can uncroak Ansom (unless he got mind control spelled) and send him out to fight.
Ansom+Frontlines= loads of bad

[Richbin]

The element I object to in the magnificent list of 15 items is that the only item which contains any form of dramatic entrance or 'cool factor' is the return of Stanely, but limiting him to only the remaining airborne units has a rather high 'yawn factor'.

The collapses indeed contain some special effects, but if that is all they do, then it remains a little anti-climactic. I am convinced there is more to Parson's plan than just this. The obvious is sometimes just too much so.

I am very happy to see Parson's has thought of sending the casters to safety, and that he is also thinking of tricking and fooling through thinkamancy regarding the orders and leaders of the coalition, but the main problem in all this are twofold - Charley and the siege engines.

Charley IS the current airpower. Following the same tactics as Hamster did, he could eliminate the siege engines, but the yawn factor remains - ho hum, stalemate - until more siege engines arrive.

The real solution is to have... OMG

Play the player, not the game.
Ansom's noblesse oblige is his greatest weakness 9and strength).
Webinar and the Jetstone troops are hostages that Ansom will not permit to die if he knows they will croak.
All Lord Hamstard needs to do is inform to Ansom that he will kill them ALL, UNLESS he himself surrenders (or hands over the pliers), or some such.
Realizing that he has grivously erred and has been played, letting his hubris send his armies to their deaths, he might well make that sacrifice. his inabilituy to seal the deal can stem from his over-opanning, but also from his inner nobility.

This would reflect Parson's smarts.

OMG

Charlie is the one that thought of this.
He has sent Parson the transport net to bring him to Ansom. Ansom would never beleive a thinkagram, but if Parson were confident enough to be present and tell him in person - in fact, coming there to accept his surrender, then he would cave...

This would wrap up the strip a litle faster than expected, but satisfactorily - no bloodshed required (true strength lies in not using brute strength), Sizemore does not go down the dark path, Wanda is vindicated in having called Parson, and maybe now Jillian will have to try and rescue Ansom...

What do y'all think?

[glenstorm74]

I think Richbin has a solid theory there. I guess I would be slightly disappointed in it because I'm so amped up for a major conflict. Thus...

Here's some questions to punch a hole in the theory.

Would Charlie's Archons then serve as Parson's escort?
Does Charlie have to ally with GK to serve as Parson's escort?
Wouldn't Coallition forces attack Parson when he enters the command hex?

[mroozee]

So I was thinking about Charlie's offer and why he sent a whole squadron of archons to Gobwin Knob. If he just wanted Parson to surrender/escape, he apparently would only need three of them to spirit him away. The archons aren't enough to overtake GK either. Maybe they are there as a threat (do this or we again side with Jetstone), but I think there may be something else going on.

Is there any reason that Parson and Charlie can't pull the same stunt that Ansom tried (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0103.html)?

A force nearly strong enough to take GK by itself could be used to:
* Wipe out a significant percentage of the Coalition's siege,
* Clear out the tunnel force, or
* Attack portions of the main column in an attempt to isolate Ansom
With the idea being that the archons would fight until seriously wounded and then back off - like the prior dragon routine.

THEN Charlie turns the archons over to Parson, they are healed, and Parson's turn begins:
* Completion of the siege destruction
* More heavy Coalition losses... possibly enough to capture/croak Ansom

If not, the REAL pain for the Coalition comes if these massacres are enough to split off a faction - who (assuming it's their turn) might receive the same archons for yet another assault on Ansom.

Why would Charlie do this?
He would get the Arkenpliers and possibly Parson's calculator. Jetstone would be severely weakened if not crippled. AND Charlie would show the remaining nations that you can't try to change your deals with him unilaterally. Along with the schmuckers he's already received, it's a good couple of turns for CharlesComm.

Why would Parson do this?
He survives along with Gobwin Knob. His reputation as a warlord who overcomes impossible odds will bring a boon. If he gets to keep the archons, he is now a powerful force. If not, he will secure some kind of agreement so that he is not immediately overrun by Charlie or any new allies.

[SteveMB]

Ooooh... that's clever. It would require Parson to make break away from Stanley and make a new alliance with Charlie (so that he could ride along with the Archons as their warlord and direct surgical strikes) -- but the fact that it's all part of a plan to save the Tool's little square head would apparently give him the wiggle room to do so.

[Lamech]

I don't think Parson would have to come along, if the Archons can't do it on there own a undead warlord would work. Nor do I think control could simply be transfered. If those Archons were to die (to Parson perhaps) and become uncroaked... maybe. Although, that would probably require the Arkenpliers, the calculator, or a far more long lasting calculator agreement.

Anyway, I don't think attacking twice would be necessary anyway it was only 19 dwagons in the first place, and now Ansom has sent archers underground, and lost some to dwagons.

Finally, what if the Archons croak ALL the woodsy elves? Could they could hide in the heavy forest and wipe out the coalition, from a untouchable stronghold?

[ThreeEyedOni]

My own thoughts...

Tunnels. I don't think that Sizemore would be up for direct attacks. I just don't think he has it in him to personally croak the enemy forces. Being the commander of the forces seems to be the most he would willfully do. The tunnels are probably booby trapped so as to either trap or otherwise kill the forces en-mass. That's also the only tactic that would seem viable; the forces in the tunnels would give a hard battle head-on against most of GK's forces, so direct attacks are likely a no.

Air. There's not much that Parson can do here. They probably have a few shots from the automated air defenses left, and pretty much no air units (especially if Wanda books it out of there). GK probably has enough archers to make an air attack largely unfeasible, especially if Parson acts as a warleader so that they can target most effectively.

Walls. This would be a losing battle. GK has pretty much no way to take out the enemy forces faster than they can get in through the walls. Then again, I'm sure GK (like pretty much any castle) has attacks similar to the anti-air weapons that can be used in the case of a siege attack. If they ignore the smaller groups and focus on the siege engines they might even be able to hold things back for another turn.

I think Parson must have somethng sneaky in store here. Maybe a newly dug tunnel, or some other way to have forces behind enemy lines? I'm sure that the coalition leaders are "sitting pretty" somewhere behind thier own ranks, but with minimal forces between them and the rear. If they got around like that, I can see them being able to cause some sort of checkmate.

[Richbin]

TUNNELS
Again, I suspect Sizemore will not have to unleash hell into the tunnels - this will be used as a ransom for Ansom. heheheh - I always thought Ansom meant Handsome, but it could mean Ransom... as he will give himself and the arkenpliers up to save all his troups. I wonder if parson might not also secure his allegiance against Charlie, in a sneaky sort of way.

AIR
Charlie controls the air, until the transylvito forces come back at Ansom's directive and blast Charlie completely (Abandon the coalition to take our prize, will you? You non-noble Arken-tyrant!)... And then Stanley either mops iup the remainder, coming back from his expedition, or conquers Charls n Charge.

GROUND
The siege forces need to be addressed, either through assault or neturalization. If Webinar is slaughtered, then parson must eliminate the siege engines somehow (again, by securing Ansom's non-aggression in exchange for Webinar's life, both are neutralized - playing the player). Destroying the siege would require more forces than the GK forces have. Only 40-odd percent of the siege was wiped out by flights of Dwagons, fer cryin out loud. No way a few zombie unipegaturs and an undead Archon will do the job. The only other possibility I can grasp at is the Thinkamancer coming into play or the Sword coming into play...

Have I mentionned i love this strip?

[Runar]

I have an idea for Stanly (if he is not going to Faq).

Okay, so, to my knowledge, the arken-hammer tames dragons. So, how many dragons, and how? The two ideas that I have come up with are:
A. The arken-hammer automatically summons/conjures a set amount of dragons
or
B. One has to physically go out and FIND the dragons, and tame them that way.

Now, if it's B, then that may be where Stanly is going. To find more dragons, to just destroy Ansom and his men.

Or, he's just running away.

[Occasional Sage]

B. One has to physically go out and FIND the dragons, and tame them that way.

Now, if it's B, then that may be where Stanly is going. To find more dragons, to just destroy Ansom and his men.


*blink*

I... haven't heard that one yet. It makes a fair amount of sense.

What will he do when he has too many dwagons to veil, then?

[Richbin]

I do not beleive this for a few reasons
* What would he need to bring a foolamancer for?
* Why only take three KISS gobwins?
* Why did he not do this, like, seven days/turns ago?
* Even at full strength, with full dwagons (before the circle maneuver), there was no hope for success (reason for Parson), so unless he gets hundreds of dwagons, no difference. Implausible.
* The amount of time (story-wise) to get a sufficiently large amount of dwagons to make a difference is far too long - GK would fall, mainetnance might become an issue, there is no story-telling to speak of. Stanley would not fade gently into the might like this.

I maintain he is going after Charley.

[OnDroid]

I maintain he is going after Charley.

That's not probable. His Toolship is flying west (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0096.html). And Charlie's Capitol is east (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0046.html) of GK. Not only refering as Eastern conflict but also the -1218 X-axis coordinate.

[Richbin]

That's not probable. His Toolship is flying west (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0096.html). And Charlie's Capitol is east (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0046.html) of GK. Not only refering as Eastern conflict but also the -1218 X-axis coordinate.

Your link to the proof that Charley is East of Stanley relies on the assumption that coordinates X:0 and Y:0 are the coordinates for Charley.
The coordinates might actually be the center of Erf, or an arbitrary 'zero point', not unlike Grenwich mean time is 0 hours.

I would have considered your assumption proven had he said - fly West towards the conflict. Just because it is called 'the Great Western Conflict' does not indicate that it is west of Charley, just of whomsoever named it, or even that it is in the 'Western' hemisphere based on the coordinate system.

PLUS - even if you are correct, nothing indicates that Stanley did not initially head West and then doubled back, and required the Foolamancer to veil his actual path. There have not been (IIRC) any sightnings of Stanley nor of his dwagons since they initially left GK.

Here is my postulation - in most of the panels that Stanley is traveling through (and those that Jillian is pursuing him through) and that the Dish Keep (Charley) is portrayed in, it is all mountainous terrain.
The more I think about it, story-wise, the more I suspect that Charley is not set up in FAQ, and Stanley is heading to him, because if Charlie were in FAQ, he would never have pulled his Archons away from where Stanley was thought to be heading.
If Stanley shows up at FAQ, he will be ambushed. He will either
a) LOSE - in which case, Parson becomes irrelevant, unless the 'Special' makes him immune to leaderlesship, or the sword grants him independance. Very 'Deus ex Machina' and unsatisfactory for the sake of a single panel cliffhanger (Stanley being run through)
b) WIN - in which case he can start his side unmolested (does not add to the story), but again, does not resolve very much, unless there are some major reveals about his past, BUT the story is titled 'the battle for Gobwin Knob', and NOT 'Stanley's Narrow escape'.

A Story thrives on sustained tension, drama and foreshadowed surprises.
the only way that Jillian and Vinny do not become irrelevant (dead or alive?) is if Stanley 'fakes them out' a la Sun Tzu, and ends up being where they are not. Vinny will race back to GK once he hears Ansom is in trouble (and he will be, depending on what Parson's does), and Jillian will be torn between going after Tool (to free Wanda or Vengeance) or rescuing Ansom (for a change).

Ideally, Stanley's story will be revealed during or shortly after his conflict with Charley. At the moment, Charley needs to be toned down in this telling, and be it through Parson manipulating Ansom to attack the Ark-hon(eys) or Stanley blind-siding Charley while his archons are occupied will accomplish this.

I fear i might be ready to put money down on this (not much though)