Stealing from shopkeepers...

[sikyon]

How do you deal with players stealing from shopkeepers? Say you have a level 5 party and the rogue (neutral) wants to steal from the shopkeeper. Whatever is available. How do you stop that? Do you make the guards come for him later?

[Carrion_Humanoid]

Well, its depends really. Are they planning to go back there any time soon? Is this their main town?

[BRC]

It depends, what is he stealing, remember they don't exactly have fingerprinting or DNA testing or anything so there is a good chance he could get away with it if he was stealing, say, some shoes, however shopkeepers with magical goods are likely to have significantally more protection (such as an alarm spell or somthing)

[mostlyharmful]

The way I usually run it is letting them steal from shop keepers, the amount they'll actually get is miniscule, mostly a few coppers since shops that don't cater for the super elite (PCs) get by on barter and trade goods for the majority of transactions. There's a reason why adventurers go adventuring, it's because peasents have pretty crumby loot. And good luck humping those sacks of grain around until someone buys them off you. And yes, make sure their actions start impinging on their reactions in towns/villages. Just because no-one can take you in a fight doens't mean they don't notice you're a psycho thief and start bolting their doors when you walk into town. Which gets really boring really fast when no-one will willingly talk to you and you start getting do-gooders trying to earn a rep by bringing you in.

[RoboticSheeple]

Evil alignment shifts stop good parties, divination magics stop bad parties. If they really want to steal then it's going to be an encounter equal to the reward. Sometimes making an adventure out of a heist can result in great fun for everyone.

[Frosty]

Playing an evil campaign where you have to defeat good-aligned bounty hunters would be fun.

[Irreverent Fool]

The thing about shoplifting is that in an actual shop (which is to say a permanent structure) prior to the advent of the Piggly-Wiggly stores, items were generally behind the counter. You told the clerk what you wanted and he'd get it for you and tell you the total. You couldn't just wander around the aisles and pocket things like the modern-day shoplifter.

So if you want to curb your PCs from swiping things at Ye Locale Generale Store, just set them up in that manner.

If the rogue tries to steal something, a simple slight-of-hand check with an opposed spot roll by the shopkeep should be enough. Penalties based on the size of the object. If the rogue's player says, "I don't care what it is, I'm just going to try and steal something," try to get him a little more involved in what exactly his character is doing.

Anything exceedingly valuable is going to be in a locked case or kept out of the way of sticky fingers. If he wants to steal valuables, he's going to have to come back under cover of dark and rob the place.

Initially, I think the shopkeep would just throw him out and tell him never to come back. If things escalated, he'd probably send his apprentice/son/assistant to get a town guard to help (who would likely be annoyed enough at the whole thing to rough up the offender a bit and throw them into the gutter or drag him back to the dungeon and throw him in with the rest of the thieves to be executed or put to labor). Of course, the PCs could probably dispatch a guard quickly, but killing law-enforcement is never wise. Ultimately the thief and his companions would get some sort of reputation around the town but if they kept a low profile it would likely be forgotten over time.

[AKA_Bait]

As above:

Depends upon who they are stealing from and what they are stealing. Examples:

Tony Burrboot, Expert 3, Whitehaven General Store:
Even if the rogue pockets the most expensive thing in the shop, say a good lock (80 gp, which is a lot of money to those in the mundane economy) the shopkeeper will probably:
a) Not notice
b) Pretend Not to Notice and then:
1) Do nothing, since it's not worth his life to tick off a party of adventureres.
2) Later contact the local Thieves Guild or Guard (whoever they have bribed more recently) and ask them to see if they can get the lock back.

Rigel Guy, Wizard 10, Rigel's Magic Emporium:
Even if the rogue pockets something as cheap as an alchemists fire:
a) The Wards on the item will detonate leaving the rogue Feebleminded, Fariefired, Mark of Justiced etc. and/or alert "Old Man Pete" the stone golem by the door.
b) Rigel will take matters into his own hands with similar results as above. Possibly, depending upon Rigels alignment, he will offer the offending PC the chance to put the item back with an 'apology'.
c) Rigel will pretend not to notice, notify a few of his equally powerful friends, and take it up with the party later on.

In bettween those two semi-extremes, it will depend in large part on the personality of the shopkeep and their estimation of how dangerous the party is.

[Fuzzy_Juan]

yeah, for the most part in 'ye olde shoppes' as far as I know...things were like shopping for items in a store like autozone without the front. Everything is in the storehouse and there are pretty much only two ways in...the entrance from the area behind the desk, and the service entrance to put inventory in stock. It was also common for the shopkeeper to have their home upstairs and have their families helping around the shop fetching whatever people need, checking stock, stuff like that.

Now, any small time store won't really have anything worth stealing...the money would be the most valuable items the shopkeep has and that would typically be kept on his person or locked away somewhere. In an armory, there may be 1-2 suits of light/med armor...but no heavy armor...those are almost always custom made to order and not kept on stock except where a noble is making lots of armor to outfit an army. Weapons...several of the most common, few if any of anything else...good luck really selling this stuff...you'd be better off fleecing weapons off of bandits or other adventurers.

Now, the 'real money' is in raiding the houses of the wealthy in a city or town. Jewlry, gems, fine art objects, money stores...singular objects or small amounts of money might not be missed for awhile thought misplaced...or big shops that might stock expensive gear, or that sel potions, scrolls, or any sort of magic items...but these will always have mundane and magical protection. The amount of protection will be proportinate to the amount of wealth that might be pilfered. The more wealth, the more thieves that will be gunning for it...so if they have wealth, they have the means to prevent most would be burglers from pilfering it.

Alarm, magical traps, poison traps, other regular traps, good locks, chests, guards, guard dogs, high thick walls, wizard locks, and their own thieves (what...pay off the thieves guild and get protection...even your own thieves to counter any non-guild idiots).

All in all...if you are planning a heist in DnD, think real world...whatever amount of goods (in cash) you steal, know that at least double that or more in resources will be spent to make sure the items are retrieved...also, basic defenses are equal to the amount of wealth in any given place. Amatures don't raid Fort Knox...there is a reason for it.

[Solo]

How do you deal with players stealing from shopkeepers? Say you have a level 5 party and the rogue (neutral) wants to steal from the shopkeeper. Whatever is available. How do you stop that? Do you make the guards come for him later?

The shopkeeper knows Finger of Death.

[Rutee]

The shopkeeper knows Finger of Death.

I was just thinking that, THIEF

[Hazkali]

It depends on what sort of adventure your players are after. You can think of a thief campaign as being like any other sort of adventure, except instead of Orcs you have humans, and the default alignment is more likely to be indifferent. In this case, the thievery should involve a lot more than a couple of opposed sleight of hand checks- planning escape routes, cover identities etc. In this case, whilst law enforcement is important (they are the main antagonists), it would makes sense to be a little bit more lenient; it would be no fun if the PCs were barred from everywhere because everyone seems to know they're theives.

However, if you're wanting to move the campaign back towards the side of goodness, or you don't want thievery to be the main focus, remember this: there is always someone more powerful, and the heat shouldn't stop until they atone for their crimes (which, if they are powerful enough, might involve undertaking a potentially dangerous mission for their liege, a plot hook in itself). If they defeat the first level yokel guards, send in the level three town guards. If they defeat the town guard, send in the king's horsemen (fifth level). If the defeat the horsemen, have a bounty hunter (seventh-plus level) come after them. Don't let it spoil the player's enjoyment, just make it hard on their characters.

[Solo]

I was just thinking that, THIEF

No, not THIEF, BLACK MAGE!

Get it rightm, people!

*stabs*

[tyckspoon]

I was just thinking that, THIEF

I can't tell if this is supposed to be a Nethack, early Ultima, or Link's Awakening reference. Link seems likely with the name change.

[sikyon]

Well... the way I run campaigns is that level 1 commoner shopkeepers can sell magic items like potions. Why? Central manufacturing. An entreprenurial commoner buys goods which are shipped to his store and then sold by him at a mark up. He doesn't make them, he just sends out orders for them. Of course, his selection is very limited to low levels, but they can still be stolen.

Any thoughts what to do with that?

[Solo]

I can't tell if this is supposed to be a Nethack, early Ultima, or Link's Awakening reference. Link seems likely with the name change.

I'll make it easier for you with graphics.

Thief:
http://image.comicvine.com/uploads/item/42000/41066/77701-thief_150.PNG

Black Mage:
http://www.onlinecomics.altervista.org/review/8bt-03.png

Now do you see?

[Project_Mayhem]

I can't tell if this is supposed to be a Nethack, early Ultima, or Link's Awakening reference. Link seems likely with the name change.

The Link's Awakening one would be funny: "What do you mean I'm called THIEF now? Thats it, I'm going back in to kill the shopkeeper" ZZZZZAAAAPPPPPPP

[AKA_Bait]

Well... the way I run campaigns is that level 1 commoner shopkeepers can sell magic items like potions. Why? Central manufacturing. An entreprenurial commoner buys goods which are shipped to his store and then sold by him at a mark up. He doesn't make them, he just sends out orders for them. Of course, his selection is very limited to low levels, but they can still be stolen.

Any thoughts what to do with that?

Sure. In that case, he is presumably selling pretty much everything on consignment. i.e. he doesn't actually own the items, he just acts as a middle man, keeping a percentage of the profit and passing the bulk of it along to higher ups in the magical items pyramid scheme trade.

What does this mean for the thief? That the shopkeeper most certianly isn't going to risk his life to protect the item, since it isn't his in the first place. It probably also means, for a situation like this to function, that there are powerful interests at the middle and top levels of the trade that would not take kindly to people stealing from their income sources. Think in terms of what the Mafia do to people to rob a store under their 'protection'.

[Rutee]

No, not THIEF, BLACK MAGE!

Get it rightm, people!

*stabs*

But I did get it right, THIEF.


It depends on what sort of adventure your players are after. You can think of a thief campaign as being like any other sort of adventure, except instead of Orcs you have humans, and the default alignment is more likely to be indifferent. In this case, the thievery should involve a lot more than a couple of opposed sleight of hand checks- planning escape routes, cover identities etc. In this case, whilst law enforcement is important (they are the main antagonists), it would makes sense to be a little bit more lenient; it would be no fun if the PCs were barred from everywhere because everyone seems to know they're theives.
I can agree with this. When you change the conflict focus from fighting, you need to add some stuff elsewhere. Preferably you'd modify or expand on mechanics, in my view, where applicable, but either way, you need to put more of a focus on it then just the one check.

[Subotei]

Another way is to not have shops with stock. In our modern world we're used to going a picking something off a shelf and buying it. In a pre-industrial world, not many craftsmen would waste time and resources making goods for passing trade - goods would tend to be made to order. Say someone in town needs boots - instead of going to a shoe shop, they go to the cobbler, ask him to make a pair, leave a down payment and come back on Thursday to pick them up. To a thief, there would be little worth robbing other than half finished boots, leather tools etc in the cobbler's shop. The more expensive the goods the more likely you'd need to commission someone to make it for you.

Of course if someone is having something expensive made, gossip might get out, and there would be opportunities for thieves to swoop after its finished but before the buyer arrives....

[Yahzi]

Well... the way I run campaigns is that level 1 commoner shopkeepers can sell magic items like potions. Why? Central manufacturing. An entreprenurial commoner buys goods which are shipped to his store and then sold by him at a mark up. He doesn't make them, he just sends out orders for them. Of course, his selection is very limited to low levels, but they can still be stolen.

Any thoughts what to do with that?
Ya. Don't do it like that. It's totally out of character with magic and medievalism.

On the other hand, if you're committed to ignoring the rules (where do you get central manufacturing of XP?) and crafting your own setting (which, honestly, is a good thing), go all the way. If they can craft potions by the case, they can throw down Zones of Truth in every courthouse, ranged-extended Detect Object to find stolen goods, and so on.

[Danzaver]

I suppose the first thing to think about is, is this a big town, or a small town?

The thing about small towns is that everyone knows everyone, and anyone who doesn't belong stands out like a sore thumb, and will probably be blamed for thefts whether they did it or not.

The thing about big towns is that theft is often regulated by organised crime groups with a strict concept of territory. If they become aware of the PC working their area, the PC could be making an enemy of every thief in town.

The next thing to think about is how the player carries themselves.

It's taken for granted that most PCs will deny removing a scrap of their armour or magical gear even to go to the toilet. So, do they ponce around with their black studded leather armour, bandana, magical rapier and poisoned daggers? Such a person will be watched very carefully by guards and shopkeepers alike, both of which will spread the word about the potential very foolish thief among all those of their profession. Also, other thieves will not want to deal with such an embarrassment.

The next question is, PCs earn more in a day than most people do in 20 years. Why are they bothering with pocket change from merchants? You can't stress this enough to them. If they proceed with their kleptomania, they deserve to get caught.

The next question is, do they intend to ever come back to this town? This is a good question to ask your player to get them to think twice about their actions. If they go ahead anyway, have the news of their illegal acts travel faster than they do, and have them watched carefully in every town they enter, and unable to find anyone to buy their stuff.

Quite simply, merchants are a very tight-knit bunch, and thieves are their natural enemies. They are not fat, helpless, easily-intimidated slobs who only care about money. They are often intelligent, observant, educated, well travelled, and most importantly, have strong connections. Powerful connections.

The final question that occurs to me, is are adventurers a common thing in your world? Because if they are, it kinda makes a lot of sense for them to be carefully watched whenever they are in town. After all, who causes more bar fights, drinks with more reckless abandon, or steals, lies, and cheats more than your average adventuring party? Even if it is only one member of the party, 90% of the time, there is always at least one, and the party will be judged by the shortest straw of their profession. If the town has ever had trouble with adventurers (or strangers of any kind), they're not gonna take any crap.

In other words, good luck to him. Adventuring and reckless stealing do not go well together, especially once your group starts getting famous, which is a whole other ball-park of problems.

[DeathQuaker]

Lot of good advice here. I'd boil it down to

1. Know your shop layout and your shop clerk's basic stats (Listen/Spot, etc. NPC generators and the like are useful for this.) If you've got a low-level Expert running the store, he's still got a listen/spot check and he can still inform the constabulary later.

2. Make sure players are aware of consequences if they get caught... even if they resist arrest and survive a fight with the guard/etc. they're going to find themselves the enemies of the whole town, and in turn of the county, and in turn of the state, and in turn of the King......

But here's the hardest part for you:

Give the players agency to get away with it if they've truly accomplished that. If they don't get caught at it, and do manage to steal something, fine. They did that. Don't deny their free will. BUT....

Going back to 2, follow things to their logical conclusion. The theft will be reported even if the rogue was not caught; there may be investigations; that shopkeeper is going to invest in better security. If a majorly valuable item was stolen, all the more reason security both in the store and the area is going to tighten up considerably -- and everyone's going to be watching the outsiders. Make them aware--entirely through story and gameplay--that sure, they got away with it once. They may not be so lucky next time.

You can even have fun with stuff if they do get caught. Be flexible enough with your plot that so... say they do get caught and arrested, the plot can continue from there (maybe the local thieves' guild noticed and offers to bail them out... in return for a favor....)

[sikyon]

The world I envision is something like Ebberon, lots of low magic but less and less high magic.

So distribution comes easier with stuff like portals between major cities for transportation, and potions are eaisier to make. Magic basically replaces technology.

My situation might go something like this:

Rogue puts on non-adventuring gear for their 2 day layover in a passing town at the local inn.

Rogue goes into shop.

Shopkeeper helps rogue look at items (let's say potions). Rogue searches for traps as his "window shopping".

Rogue does slight of hand, succeeds against shopkeeper, and swipes a small potion.

Shopkeeper noticies it's missing, asks rogue

Rogue rolls bluff opposed by sense motive

Rogue wins, shopkeeper can't pin down the rogue but is still suspicious due to circumstance modifier

Rogue uses diplomacy (yes, diplomacy. This is it's intended use) to reason with the shopkeeper and make him helpful instead of unhelpful

Rogue uses slight of hand to put the potion somewhere inconspicous, succeeds

Rogue points it out to shopkeeper, shopkeeper notices, thinks he is losing his memory

While the shopkeeper's back is turned, Rogue swipes big potion (circumstance bonus because shopkeeper's back is turned)

Rogue then bluffs shopkeeper (circumstance bonus because shopkeeper thinks he is losing his memory at that point)

Rogue then buys something small, and leaves

Shopkeeper eventually assumes he just lost or misplaced it, never suspects Rogue.

Rogue goes back to party, Paladin never suspects that the potion was stolen.

I could use DM fiat to send guards after them but honestly I think it's reasonable the shopkeep doesn't suspect anything until it's too late, and he didn't get down a name or even see the rest of the party. He has no idea who the guy is. He has no description to give police other than something like "uhhh... he was human... brown hair... 6 feet tall... uhhh......"

[Wooter]

Okay, so you buy your stuff, let's say a bedroll and a pound of cheese. You say thank you, and shake th shopkeepers hand. Then you take his ring, without him noticing.

What would be the slight of hand DC for that? What about stealing his pants without him noticing?

[Jack Zander]

Okay, so you buy your stuff, let's say a bedroll and a pound of cheese. You say thank you, and shake th shopkeepers hand. Then you take his ring, without him noticing.

What would be the slight of hand DC for that? What about stealing his pants without him noticing?

The DC would be a flat 15 to take their ring (dumb, I know) and they get a spot check to notice you. You can't steal someone's pants off of them. Only a palm sized object.

[tyckspoon]

The world I envision is something like Ebberon, lots of low magic but less and less high magic.

<stuff>

I could use DM fiat to send guards after them but honestly I think it's reasonable the shopkeep doesn't suspect anything until it's too late, and he didn't get down a name or even see the rest of the party. He has no idea who the guy is. He has no description to give police other than something like "uhhh... he was human... brown hair... 6 feet tall... uhhh......"

That's reasonable, and the rogue should probably get away with it. I would have it that even a dealer in small magics is paranoid about the safety of those magics, however- unless he also deals in masterwork equipment and/or armor, any single potion is worth as much as like a hundred of another object in his store. Customers never even *see* the potion bottles until they've paid. In your example, when the Rogue comes in and says he's interested in buying some potions the shopkeeper gives him an inventory list to look over. The rogue picks out the type and amount of potions he desires to buy, pays the shopkeeper, and only then does the shopkeeper unlock the case/go in back and fetch out the purchase. There's opportunity for the rogue to rip off the shop there still with things like counterfeit money, but it's a lot harder for him to just pocket a potion and walk out.

[sikyon]

Okay, so you buy your stuff, let's say a bedroll and a pound of cheese. You say thank you, and shake th shopkeepers hand. Then you take his ring, without him noticing.

What would be the slight of hand DC for that? What about stealing his pants without him noticing?

Per d20srd, DC20 for the ring, pants I'd say DC 50 from epic guidelines, as long as they are in plain view.

[The_Blue_Sorceress]

What would be the slight of hand DC for that? What about stealing his pants without him noticing?

Some where in the range of DC: NO

Now, you can talk him out of his pants, we had a warlock that could do that in our party for one session. His nickname was Sugar Lips.

You could also have something happen once in a while to remind him that not everything is meant to be taken. We had a rogue in one party that tried to pick someone's pockets at a fair. Turned out the guy was a high level cleric. (Our DM made a quick percentile check to see if the individual had a PC class, then another to determine the approximate level, and then made the cleric's spot check based off that) He got caught of course, and in an attempt to create a distraction, our mage used his figurine of wonderous power to summon an elephant, which accidentally crushed two children and their grandfather. Everything turned out all right in the end (except for that old man and his two grandchildren, they stayed squoozed) but the point was made that it's unwise to assume that, even if you're high enough level and you have decent checks, there may be someone else out there, and if you don't specify your target, then you may just get a high-level cleric very angry.

-Blue

[DarknessLord]

I was just thinking that, THIEF

I don't care, the one life loss/name change is so worth the price of the bow.
Even if it's not very Linkish to do.

Anyways, if it's worth stealing, its guard is enough that you should make an encounter out of it. Try to simply steal it, and they're gonna get caught, make em work to steal stuff!

[valadil]

I allow and encourage this, just so long as it doesn't take too much screen time off the PCs. Just remember that it makes sense for shopkeeps to guard their goods. If they can invest 50k in a single sword, they can invest thousands, at the least, into magical security. Players that see the disjunction trap may be less likely to rob a store.

[Kilroy]

If you don't want stuff stolen have it locked up until paid for. My thought is if a PC of mine went through all this

My situation might go something like this:

Rogue puts on non-adventuring gear for their 2 day layover in a passing town at the local inn.

Rogue goes into shop.

Shopkeeper helps rogue look at items (let's say potions). Rogue searches for traps as his "window shopping".

Rogue does slight of hand, succeeds against shopkeeper, and swipes a small potion.

Shopkeeper noticies it's missing, asks rogue

Rogue rolls bluff opposed by sense motive

Rogue wins, shopkeeper can't pin down the rogue but is still suspicious due to circumstance modifier

Rogue uses diplomacy (yes, diplomacy. This is it's intended use) to reason with the shopkeeper and make him helpful instead of unhelpful

Rogue uses slight of hand to put the potion somewhere inconspicous, succeeds

Rogue points it out to shopkeeper, shopkeeper notices, thinks he is losing his memory

While the shopkeeper's back is turned, Rogue swipes big potion (circumstance bonus because shopkeeper's back is turned)

Rogue then bluffs shopkeeper (circumstance bonus because shopkeeper thinks he is losing his memory at that point)

Rogue then buys something small, and leaves

Shopkeeper eventually assumes he just lost or misplaced it, never suspects Rogue.

Rogue goes back to party, Paladin never suspects that the potion was stolen.

Just to steal a potion in a campaign with lots of low magic I'd probably give him RP XP. Most of mine as neutral light the shop on fire and steal it blind helping to put the fire out. At level 5 a one use 3rd level spell isn't something a group caster couldn't do for him.

[DementedFellow]

With the above example, I'd totally reward that behavior too. It's nice to see people behaving like their characters would.

Otherwise if some guy wanted to rob the place blind, I'd punish that kind of behavior. Suddenly, the town guard comes in and looks like they are 10 levels higher and have the poor rogue outnumbered 10 to 1.

This in itself allows for the character to redeem himself/herself by going to jail and finding a way out. Or if the Rogue was just wanting to Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid his way out, he/she will have to make a new character, as that one will die most assuredly.

Rogues are almost always more a liability to the group with their kleptomania. I've only seen a few people play a rogue and not totally tick off the rest of the party members by their seemingly random acts of robbery. I've even had rogue PCs that would steal from other members of the party. I wouldn't have allowed that as a DM, but our DM did.

But anyway, it all comes down to how this person pulled off the feat, if they were sly like in the example above, CONGRATS, you have a good player, if they don't give thought to what could happen, then by all means smite them with your DM-ly might.

[Voyager_I]

As has already been pointed out, things aren't sitting in aisles out front waiting to get pocketed. You pay the shopkeeper, and then he goes back and gets whatever it is you bought. You'd get to try out things like swords and armor, obviously, but the shopkeeper would be watching you and he knows you have it. If you want to steal anything, you'll have to break into the inventory room at night. Expect security appropriate to the value of the items within. Stores carrying anything players would bother to steal can afford to have all kinds of wards and guards.

Also, the Guild system is your friend. If one of the shopkeepers has a reason to suspect the PC's of anything, everyone in his guild will be suspicious of them. If they get caught stealing something valuable, they shouldn't be surprised if every vendor in the city knows who they are and refuses to let them into their shops.

[leperkhaun]

it would depend on how much they steal. If they steal some shoes from a mom and pop, its probably not going to get noticed. If they steal from a rich merchant or from a merchant that deals in high value goods, its another story.

Those merchants can afford to have a wizard cast divination spells and track down the thief.

[Khanderas]

It depends, what is he stealing, remember they don't exactly have fingerprinting or DNA testing or anything so there is a good chance he could get away with it if he was stealing, say, some shoes, however shopkeepers with magical goods are likely to have significantally more protection (such as an alarm spell or somthing)

They do however have Zone of truth, scrying and access to devine information.
Anything for sale would NOT be on the shelves, supermarket fashion. At best shelved behind the clerk but problebly listed and locked down until asked for.
(what is on the list is what is for sale, and an assistant would run and fetch it for intrested customer. At no time the store would be unsupervised)

Anything valuable enough for the PC's to think about would be in a shop under severe guard by modern standards. The Magic items R us is problebly a keep in its own right (or a part of the kings / barons existing keep). It will not be a 50 silver log cabin containing 20 million in gold items)

[its_all_ogre]

dragon shop keepers, the way forward!
they lose no xp for making items and are a pretty good guard on their own with blindsight spells and kick arse melee abilities.
and alternate form. silver dragon ftw!

[kamikasei]

dragon shop keepers, the way forward!
they lose no xp for making items and are a pretty good guard on their own with blindsight spells and kick arse melee abilities.
and alternate form. silver dragon ftw!

Nine words: "The blacksmith turns into a dragon and eats you!!!"

The Dead Alewives sketch was not a how-to. :smallwink:

[Khanderas]

dragon shop keepers, the way forward!
they lose no xp for making items and are a pretty good guard on their own with blindsight spells and kick arse melee abilities.
and alternate form. silver dragon ftw!
I do like the idea of, if there is any network over borders to buy/sell magical equipment, it would be a powerful race with alien intentions.
Dragonbane items is gonna be destroyed though, preferrably by a dragon artificer (for the xp crafting pool) not to mention killing dragons would not be considered cool anymore (seeing as dragons being a cvilised race if they got the market for greater magical goods).

Sure humans can buy / sell items themselves, but they rarely got the cash for buying, or the goods for selling. With short lives a human is very much likely to sell a magical item to a dragon and live in luxery for himself and a generation or two of decendents. Not to mention the dragons keep an item teleportation setup for transporting the goods needed with fixed prices, a feat mortals cannot (country barriers and so on). This also explains why raiding a dragon will not yield the adventurers all the treasures in the world.

Sure the dragons can fix you up with that +<ohmygod> sword of <adverb> <verb>, but you might have to offer something more then gold for it... (plothook, yesplease). Oh and there is the small handling fee ofcourse. But hey, its premium stuff and its guaranteed 100% cursefree (unless the selling dragon is feeling michevious).

In short, I like it.

[Duke of URL]

My situation might go something like this:

Rogue puts on non-adventuring gear for their 2 day layover in a passing town at the local inn.

Rogue goes into shop

...

Rogue goes back to party, Paladin never suspects that the potion was stolen.

Not only would I allow this (in that setting), I'd award XP for it.

[its_all_ogre]

yeah that posted scenario would be cool!
i have dragon magic shop vendors in my world......the players do not know this and chances are will not learn of this.
but then the dragons are an endangered species and effectively the rebellion.

their oppressors are also oppressed by another far more fell race.
i love scenarios that are atypical without becoming a mere opposites scenario.

[AKA_Bait]

where do you get central manufacturing of XP?

You chain bind effreeti of course. The dungeonomicon (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=9483435)gives a pretty good posit of why this sort of economy would actually make some sense in D&D terms.

[Jimbob]

I love it when players do this it can open new adventures and ideas. Once a party memeber stoll some thing from a shop he did not think much of it just thought it would be funny, what he did not know was that it was magic and the shop keeper wanted it back very badly. He went to the local wizards guild and asked them to cast "locate object" and pointed out where it was, the party happened to be in town still and this opened up to 3 weeks of running from guards wizards, hiding out, wanted posters and in the end being thrown in jail and this is where they sit at the moment (looking forward to seeing that lot get out of it with nothing more then there clothes and a stool)