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blue_fenix
2008-02-05, 08:13 PM
I am about to begin DM-ing a campaign in which Wizard, Cleric, Sorceror, and Druid are banned, as well as ToB, for the sake of getting the players to play something unusual and removing the top tier of power from the game. One of the players has asked to play a Wu Jen, so my question is this: At mid levels (5-15) how good is a well-played Wu Jen compared to an equally well-played Wizard?

Nebo_
2008-02-05, 08:15 PM
It is a full caster and therefore quite powerful, but it can't match the wizard because its spellbook is much more limited.

GryffonDurime
2008-02-05, 08:29 PM
Wu Jen have a plethora of unique attack spells that emulate weapons (iron scarves, daggers of ice), but they lack a good number of the Wizard's save-or-fillintheblankhere spells. They're still Arcanists, and a Wu Jen capitalizing on Spirit feats will routinely do well in the Initiative Order...still, there's not a neat call on this one. The Wu Jen will definately fill the Arcanist role; what do you currently have for the Divine role, if any? If you've limited it to half-casters as opposed to, say, the Favored Soul, I'd say the Wu Jen is far too much. If there are other full casters--just not the big four--then I'd say you're probably safe.

blue_fenix
2008-02-05, 08:36 PM
Yeah, I don't have a great idea of what others will be playing yet, but I'm toying with allowing one guy a psion, 'cause I know those are more balanced than wizard (sans certain pieces of ripe gouda) and another player may go warlock. This isn't supposed to be low-magic, just ditching the most overpowered and popular classes with one fell blow. Favored Soul is definitely one I think I'd allow, but Wu Jen was new to me.

Worira
2008-02-05, 08:40 PM
Sorcerers, Psions, and Favoured Souls are all pretty similar in power.

AtomicKitKat
2008-02-05, 08:42 PM
Shugenja and Spirit-shamen are both Divine casters I think.

loves_to_laugh
2008-02-05, 08:46 PM
I have actually played a wu jen before and I think it is just as good as a wizard. It has an almost completely different set of spells and while their spellbook is slightly more limited, they have the taboos to help balance them out. The taboos being basically metamagic feats that they can get without using up one of their few feats.

Hawriel
2008-02-05, 08:51 PM
Shugenja and Spirit-shamen are both Divine casters I think.

yes they are


If you want a more balanced caster the ones from Oriental adverntures are nice. I recomend using the Rokugen magic system as well just for somthing different. It also cuts down the spell lists. The system uses 5 elements instead of schools. Shugenja are from OA as well as a shaman class and Wu Jen. Although Shugenja are built for the OA magic system.

GryffonDurime
2008-02-05, 08:54 PM
I have actually played a wu jen before and I think it is just as good as a wizard. It has an almost completely different set of spells and while their spellbook is slightly more limited, they have the taboos to help balance them out. The taboos being basically metamagic feats that they can get without using up one of their few feats.

Spell Secrets and Taboos are really not all that effective, barring extreme munchkinery.

If you're allowing a Psion, by all means! The Wu Jen and the Psion, as someone who has played both, are of roughly equivalent power-levels. The Psion may even creep ahead.

To fill you in, if you haven't already examined them, Spell Secrets are the Wu Jen's major class feature. Over the course of 20 levels, you get about five spell secrets or so, and each one allows you to pick one spell you can currently cast and enhance it with either Still, Silent, Enlarge, or Extend Spell for free, forever.

Really...not that big. You get a couple spells you're pretty good at, but they're not going to do any more damage. They might cover a wider area or last a little longer, but in the end this isn't Metamagic cheese. This isn't the Incantatrix by a longshot.

Epic Spell Secrets, on the other hand, are terrifying things to behold that should be beaten until they lie bloodied at my feat.

If your intent is to wipe out the 1st Tier classes and reestablish the 2nd Tier as the best, you'll find excellent classes in the Wu Jen, Spirit Shaman, Shugenja, Warmage...possibly even the Beguiler (you might not want to invite him to the party, he's pushing the 1st-2nd Tier boundary.

TheThan
2008-02-05, 09:16 PM
You can find the Wu Jen and the Shugenja in both Oriental adventures, complete arcane, and complete divine. The versions in OA are nearly identical to the completes versions.

OA also has a shaman class which you may be interested in. personally I didnít really like it. Oh and complete divine also has the spirit shaman which is pseudo-native American though it can also fit in an Asian flavored game.

Personally I see the Wu Jen as being extremely lame, I mean come on, they couldnít even bother to come up with a different spell list?
I really liked the class, except for their spell list. Sure they get a few unique Wu Jen only spells but overall their spell list is just lame, itís copied and pasted almost verbatim from the sorcerer/wizard list. They are supposed to be elemental based spell casters, but they hardly have any elemental spells, and some of the spells they do have that are ďelementalĒ are shoehorned into said element.
So I took it upon my self to add some pizzazz to the class, but that equates into homebrewing and is best suited for another topic or else Iíll start rambling.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-05, 09:29 PM
The Wujen class is nice and flavorful.

It pales in comparison to a standard wizard unless all the other in game options like feats and PRCs are available which allow it to be optimized.

Will the Wujen PC be able to take the Arcane Disciple feat which open up a lot of spell options?

The Summoning Domain* opens up the Thaumaturgist PRC the Spell Domain opens limited usage of a lot of core wizard spells with the 2 Anyspells.

Wujen - 7, (Thaum - 1*), Loremaster - 6 (3*) , (Thaum +2*), Archmage - 2.

As I recall it was the Bamboo Spirit Folk who had the Trackless Step racial feature. Would that allow the PC to go Shaman -3, Wujen- 3, MT- 2, Arcane Heriophant-7 ? Divine Meta magic cheese with Shaman (Turn/Rebuke Undead), Unarmed Strike, Animal Companion (further enhanced by Arcane Heriophant).