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Grug
2008-02-10, 07:34 PM
This is a topic for questions about DnD you don't plan on immediately using, but still wish to explore the possibility. To start I have three questions:

1. With so many magic items and cleric spells that recharge "At Dawn", how would game balance be affected with a longer day, like 30 hours?

2.Would it be possible for Unseen Servants to wear costumes and look like creatures (or just people in costumes). Obviously they would weigh less than twenty pounds.

3.Would extended Fox's Cunning of significant level allow an almost permanent boost to Savingthrow DCs?

Zincorium
2008-02-10, 07:39 PM
1. People would adventure fewer hours out of the day.
2. It's a shapeless force. It would be able to carry around the clothes like an invisible coat hanger, however.
3. You're aware there's an item for that, right?

martyboy74
2008-02-10, 07:45 PM
The problem with the first one is that parties that abuse per day abilities already suffer from narcolepsy; lengthening the day would just make them sleep even more.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-02-10, 07:46 PM
This is a topic for questions about DnD you don't plan on immediately using, but still wish to explore the possibility. To start I have three questions:

1. With so many magic items and cleric spells that recharge "At Dawn", how would game balance be affected with a longer day, like 30 hours?

2.Would it be possible for Unseen Servants to wear costumes and look like creatures (or just people in costumes). Obviously they would weigh less than twenty pounds.



1. They should cost 80% market of the standard price with a 30 hour day.

2. Yes, although there is no reason there couldn't Unseen Servant that is visible (either translucent, ghostly or visible as per the silent image spell for such a small area (medium or smaller creature)

Zincorium
2008-02-10, 07:55 PM
2. Yes, although there is no reason there couldn't Unseen Servant that is visible (either translucent, ghostly or visible as per the silent image spell for such a small area (medium or smaller creature)


Unseen Servant
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One invisible, mindless, shapeless servant
Duration: 1 hour/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

An unseen servant is an invisible, mindless, shapeless force that performs simple tasks at your command. It can run and fetch things, open unstuck doors, and hold chairs, as well as clean and mend. The servant can perform only one activity at a time, but it repeats the same activity over and over again if told to do so as long as you remain within range. It can open only normal doors, drawers, lids, and the like. It has an effective Strength score of 2 (so it can lift 20 pounds or drag 100 pounds). It can trigger traps and such, but it can exert only 20 pounds of force, which is not enough to activate certain pressure plates and other devices. It canít perform any task that requires a skill check with a DC higher than 10 or that requires a check using a skill that canít be used untrained. Its speed is 15 feet.

The servant cannot attack in any way; it is never allowed an attack roll. It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.) If you attempt to send it beyond the spellís range (measured from your current position), the servant ceases to exist.
Material Component

A piece of string and a bit of wood.
(added emphasis mine)

If it has no shape, it is therefore not shaped like a person. If it is not shaped like a person, or anything else for that matter, there is no way it can convincingly wear clothes.

Collin152
2008-02-10, 08:05 PM
(added emphasis mine)

If it has no shape, it is therefore not shaped like a person. If it is not shaped like a person, or anything else for that matter, there is no way it can convincingly wear clothes.

It could mean it's amorphous, and ca take any shape it needs to.
Afte all, how can sometihng truly be shapeless?

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-10, 08:16 PM
It could mean it's amorphous, and ca take any shape it needs to.
Afte all, how can sometihng truly be shapeless?

It isn't a thing, it's a force. The wind is shapeless, the force of a magnet being attracted to a metal object is shapeless. I imagine you could make it hold up the clothing if you wanted.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-10, 08:16 PM
(added emphasis mine)

If it has no shape, it is therefore not shaped like a person. If it is not shaped like a person, or anything else for that matter, there is no way it can convincingly wear clothes.
Counterexample:

Mageís Magnificent Mansion
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Extradimensional mansion, up to three 10-ft. cubes/level (S)
Duration: 2 hours/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You conjure up an extradimensional dwelling that has a single entrance on the plane from which the spell was cast. The entry point looks like a faint shimmering in the air that is 4 feet wide and 8 feet high. Only those you designate may enter the mansion, and the portal is shut and made invisible behind you when you enter. You may open it again from your own side at will. Once observers have passed beyond the entrance, they are in a magnificent foyer with numerous chambers beyond. The atmosphere is clean, fresh, and warm.

You can create any floor plan you desire to the limit of the spellís effect. The place is furnished and contains sufficient foodstuffs to serve a nine-course banquet to a dozen people per caster level. A staff of near-transparent servants (as many as two per caster level), liveried and obedient, wait upon all who enter. The servants function as unseen servant spells except that they are visible and can go anywhere in the mansion.

Since the place can be entered only through its special portal, outside conditions do not affect the mansion, nor do conditions inside it pass to the plane beyond.

Focus: A miniature portal carved from ivory, a small piece of polished marble, and a tiny silver spoon (each item worth 5 gp).(Emphasis and Emphasis added)

We have an example - in Core, no less, of a shapless force wearing Livery - a type of clothing.

As for the OP...
1. No particular effect - roughly 90% of the time, it's the number of encounters in a day that affect things, not the hours in the day.

2.: See counterexample to Zincorium, above; yes, it's possible, although why you would want to is a different question. "Seen Servant" would normally be slightly less useful than Unseen Servant.

3.: Yes, but by the time you've got the Minute/Level duration up to the point where it lasts long enough to matter for more than about one or two fights, you're better off with an item because it will save you an action.

Irreverent Fool
2008-02-10, 08:18 PM
Counterexample:
(Emphasis and Emphasis added)

We have an example - in Core, no less, of a shapless force wearing Livery - a type of clothing.

The servants in a MMM function as unseen servants. It does not say that they are unseen servants.

Jack_Simth
2008-02-10, 08:22 PM
The servants in a MMM function as unseen servants. It does not say that they are unseen servants.
Which, incidentally, will include everything about how the spell functions unless otherwise noted - so they're exactly as shapeless as the the ones from the Unseen Servant spell. But they're wearing livery.

Zincorium
2008-02-10, 08:24 PM
It says they're wearing livery.

It does NOT state that they look like normal people, which is what the OP was asking about.

So I don't view it as a counterexample to what I said about wearing it convincingly.:smallbiggrin:

Gralamin
2008-02-10, 08:26 PM
It isn't a thing, it's a force. The wind is shapeless, the force of a magnet being attracted to a metal object is shapeless. I imagine you could make it hold up the clothing if you wanted.

No, they have a shape. The Wind is particles heading in a direction (much like a wave) for example.[/physics geek]

Chronos
2008-02-10, 08:41 PM
Magnetic fields (http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=magnetic+field&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2) have shape, too. Sometimes really cool shapes (http://www.amnh.org/education/resources/rfl/web/sunscapes/images/NAS20.jpg), too.

(It's too bad I can't find a movie of that one; it writhes and twists and rises up exactly like you'd expect a dragon to)

Glyde
2008-02-10, 08:48 PM
Hey, how about people stop arguing about something that can be, and should be, only be decided upon by the people playing that particular campaign. Something that's purely RP like that shouldn't be discussed and over analyzed using rules.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-02-10, 08:51 PM
Am i the only one who sees a crazy angry person in the last link there?

Zincorium
2008-02-10, 08:56 PM
Hey, how about people stop arguing about something that can be, and should be, only be decided upon by the people playing that particular campaign. Something that's purely RP like that shouldn't be discussed and over analyzed using rules.

Someone asks a question and you're yelling at us for trying to answer it :smallconfused: ?

Grug
2008-02-10, 10:04 PM
1.: okay, I guess that gets resolved.

2.: The description in Magnificent Mansion specifically says they can be Seen. They FUNCTION like unseen servants but they are NOT unseen servants. And in my case, unseen servants would be far more useful than seen servants, since you could disguise them. It seems like the Unseen servant is shapeless, so it couldn't actually Wear the clothes, but it could still carry around a large cloak and scare people. I just got the idea of one of those chinese parade dragons controlled entirely by unseen servant.

3.: for some reason I thought that Fox's Cunning would stack with Headband of Intellect.

New topic:
4. I've asked this a while ago, but I'll try again. What would be the rules for feigning unconciousness? Imagine Fighter A hits Wizard B for less than lethal damage. Wizard B decides to feign death to deter fuirther attacks. I would say it requires a bluff check, and a heal check could automatically reveal the bluff.

5. Could a Salamander or Red Dragon survive inside the Earth's Mantle?

Zincorium
2008-02-10, 10:09 PM
4. I've asked this a while ago, but I'll try again. What would be the rules for feigning unconciousness? Imagine Fighter A hits Wizard B for less than lethal damage. Wizard B decides to feign death to deter fuirther attacks. I would say it requires a bluff check, and a heal check could automatically reveal the bluff.

Sounds perfectly reasonable. You could even waive the heal check if they're checking really closely. There isn't an official system as far as I know.


5. Could a Salamander or Red Dragon survive inside the Earth's Mantle?

The pressure would kill them instantly, in addition to the fact that you can't really breathe rock, molten or otherwise. Heat wouldn't be a problem, though.

Indon
2008-02-10, 10:18 PM
4. I've asked this a while ago, but I'll try again. What would be the rules for feigning unconciousness? Imagine Fighter A hits Wizard B for less than lethal damage. Wizard B decides to feign death to deter fuirther attacks. I would say it requires a bluff check, and a heal check could automatically reveal the bluff.

Personally, to make things more interesting I would have opposed checks, providing the individual making the heal check with a large circumstance bonus (from +20 to +30, depending). Considering if you bluff with a +50 modifier against you, you can actually suggest things to people, I'd consider it a semi-epic skill use to actually succeed against any appreciable heal check.


5. Could a Salamander or Red Dragon survive inside the Earth's Mantle?

A sufficiently old Dragon might, as the Dragon might know Passwall (or a comparable spell) and a spell which allows him to not need to breathe.

Alternately, one could argue that a dragon with a swim speed and sufficiently high strength/constitution could swim through molten rock (with only the air and heat to worry about).

Collin152
2008-02-10, 11:00 PM
1.: okay, I guess that gets resolved.

2.: The description in Magnificent Mansion specifically says they can be Seen. They FUNCTION like unseen servants but they are NOT unseen servants. And in my case, unseen servants would be far more useful than seen servants, since you could disguise them. It seems like the Unseen servant is shapeless, so it couldn't actually Wear the clothes, but it could still carry around a large cloak and scare people. I just got the idea of one of those chinese parade dragons controlled entirely by unseen servant.





They function as unseen servants, which includes the shapeless line. It also describes them as wearing clothes. Seeing as the point being debated is whether the unseen servants could wear the clothes, you can't dismiss the point with naught but that.
Shapeless does not mean formless.

Chronos
2008-02-10, 11:31 PM
On the feigning death question, I would call it an opposed check of Bluff vs. Spot or Heal (whichever is higher), if it was just casual observation (possibly with a circumstance modifier depending on how bad the wounds were). But if the fellow still standing decides to actively examine the feigning character (spending an action on it), I would give another opposed check, but with a hefty (+15 to 20, or so) for the examiner. In the heat of battle, it might not be too hard to fool someone into thinking you're dead, but it's really tough to fool someone who's taking a good look at you.

Indon
2008-02-10, 11:45 PM
In the heat of battle, it might not be too hard to fool someone into thinking you're dead, but it's really tough to fool someone who's taking a good look at you.

Well, I made my judgement for penalty based on the assumption that checking someone's pulse in 6 seconds is a heal check DC 15, meaning that to out-bluff that, you would need to be able to have your heart skip a beat, or beat inperceptibly. That seemed to me to be a near-epic use of Bluff, so I went with DC 45, or a +30 (with lower modifiers in circumstances which distract the healer) modifier against the bluffer.

Chronos
2008-02-11, 01:38 AM
Well, there have been historical cases where a person has been mistakenly thought to be dead, but later recovered (with or without help), so I wouldn't put the penalty at epic levels. Then again, most of those cases were probably cases where the poor stiff was at negative HP, which might be more easily confused for death than a deliberate bluff. I dunno; I don't see much point in debating the exact value, since we agree on the general principles.

Baron Malkar
2008-02-11, 02:14 AM
Couldn't someone with sufficient concentration have their heart stop beating while someone is checking for a pulse?

Thurbane
2008-02-11, 02:29 AM
If you want an Unseen Servant to mimic a person, get a light (bamboo?) vaguely human shaped rack, hang clothes off that, and have the servant carry the whole thing around. This was a common ploy we used back in 2E. :smallbiggrin:

Khanderas
2008-02-11, 02:45 AM
Couldn't someone with sufficient concentration have their heart stop beating while someone is checking for a pulse?
I don't think you can physically stop your heart by willpower.
You can slow it down by breathing right but that takes some time and if you have been in a fight you are winded (no matter what you did, adrenaline and such). I must add though that anyone checking your pulse is within stabbing distance :smallamused:
Also: a word of magic, but spending a feat on this would be very wasted (or skillpoints).

Faking death is hardly epic stuff. Get a hammer to the head and just go limp. Can be done convincingly by non-trained commoners in the Real World.
There is a risk vs reward. You are putting yourself in a prone position. Anyone checking would get to do a skillcheck, but to me you gotta look to get the chance to roll. (checking includes a swift kick in the nuts, for epic Concentration modifier).


On the subject of seen servants. I am sure the MM servants are enhanced by illusions. So they have an illusion put upon them of a humanoid-ish shape in liveries (so they are not wearing liveries), but you can just walk though them. They are only visible for the convinience of the vistors (some people cant "go" if there are others in the public restroom and such).

mabriss lethe
2008-02-11, 03:09 AM
lightweight dummies or manniquins that the Unseen servant can puppeteer as someone said earlier. decent ploy.

spend the money to create some simple clockworks in the dummy, have the US move it around and when you're in range for battle, have the US pull a lever. The springloaded dummy then lashes out with an attack of some sort. Maybe it has a dagger in it's hand and when the lever is thrown, the whole torso spins around. Doesn't have to be effective in combat to scare the crap out of someone.

JeminiZero
2008-02-11, 03:15 AM
Couldn't someone with sufficient concentration have their heart stop beating while someone is checking for a pulse?

I believe autohypnosis would be a more appropriate skill for stopping your own pulse. Also checking the enemies pulse in the middle of a fight is likely to provoke AoO.

Rather than Bluff (which checks if the other guy beleives what you said), I would set faking death to rely on the Perform (Acting) skill.

AKA_Bait
2008-02-11, 10:28 AM
I believe autohypnosis would be a more appropriate skill for stopping your own pulse. Also checking the enemies pulse in the middle of a fight is likely to provoke AoO.

Rather than Bluff (which checks if the other guy beleives what you said), I would set faking death to rely on the Perform (Acting) skill.

I think bluff would be most appropriate for this. Being able to do a convincing hamlet and being able to fool someone in real life are actually quite different skills.

puppyavenger
2008-02-11, 10:58 AM
Am i the only one who sees a crazy angry person in the last link there?

no, you are not alone.

Fhaolan
2008-02-11, 12:37 PM
I played a game some time ago that had a variant Unseen Servant spell called 'Shadow Servant'. I think it was functionally identical to the Unseen Servant spell, but it was in the Illusion school and had a ghostly appearance. I'm not 100% sure of the details as I was playing a Paladin at the time and this was something researched by the Illusionist character.

Reducing your heart rate enough to be mistaken for dead, I would put as a new feat or something similar that would slow down your *entire* metabolism. Much like the hibernation-like coma that some advanced yoga practitioners can do.

Indon
2008-02-11, 12:55 PM
Reducing your heart rate enough to be mistaken for dead, I would put as a new feat or something similar that would slow down your *entire* metabolism. Much like the hibernation-like coma that some advanced yoga practitioners can do.

This sounds like a job for Skill Tricks!

bbugg
2008-02-11, 02:14 PM
I think people are missing the point on the feigning death question. The idea is to get the fighter to stop hitting you, not have him be thoroughly convinced you're dead. Most fights end with unconciousness, not death anyway, so a pulse wouldn't mean anything.

I would say the point is to feign unconciousness in battle. I'd use a straight bluff vs. sense motives. If the opponent chooses to examine you, I'd give them a DC10 or 15 (i.e. not high) healing check. This has nothing to do with your performance, it's an evaluation of your current state of health. If it comes to that though, you're already in trouble.

If you have some fancy auto-hypnosis or something else, then you'd obviously need new rules.

tyrion
2008-02-11, 08:30 PM
Well the combat panache tactical feat has a manuvre called play dead which seems to cover what you want.

FlyMolo
2008-02-11, 09:20 PM
That sounds exactly like what the OP wanted.


On red dragons and swimming through the mantle: There's a magic item or two which removes the need to breathe. I would rule that a dragon with lungs fully exhaled(or full of mantle-pressure air) is basically incompressible. Like a water balloon made of asbestos wouldn't pop in the mantle. Like you don't pop in the atmosphere. See Also: Spell Imprisonment.