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Neftren
2008-02-12, 08:14 PM
I have a feeling this is slightly overpowered... but that's the way it turned out as I was writing the fluff. Anyone care to critique me?

The Myrmidon

Swift and strong, these footsoldiers of the Igmarins forged an empire over a period of one hundred years. Feared for their dedication and cause, these stalwart defenders are the main fighting force of the Igmarins. Skilled with the Sword and Spear, the Myrmidon is an excellent melee defender who can quickly adapt to a changing situation. Myrmidons can be found anywhere within the Igmarin Empire, but their services are most needed on frontiers or swift reactionary forces. They are rarely recruited into becoming guards.

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills: The Mymidon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Perform: Weapon Drill (Cha), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex) and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points: (2+Int Modifier) (x4 at First Level)

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Combat Training
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Evaluate the Enemy
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Evasive Action
4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Tactical Affinity [Least]
5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Focused Precision
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Fast Movement [+5 Feet]
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Strength in Numbers
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Tactical Affinity [Lesser]
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|--
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Critical Oversight
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Targeted Precision
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Tactical Affinity [Greater]
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Environmental Adaptation [Lesser]
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Fast Movement [+10 Feet]
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Multilateral Approach
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Tactical Affinity [Master]
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Pinpoint Precision
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Environmental Adaptation [Greater]
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6| --
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Tactical Affinity [Ultimate][/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Myrmidons are proficient with all simple weapons, shortswords, longswords and short spears, spears and longspears. They are proficient with Light and Medium Armor as well as Bucklers and Light and Heavy Shields.

Combat Training
A Myrmidon has learned to wield his weapons efficiently due to his military indoctrination. The Myrmidon gains a competence bonus to his attack rolls for every four ranks he has in Perform: Weapon Drill.

Evaluate the Enemy
A Myrmidon can spend a swift action to study an opponent in battle. He gains a +2 Competence Bonus to his Armor Class against that opponent. This stacks with Dodge. If the opponent is a Martial Adept, the Myrmidon may also identify the stance or maneuver used as if he had auto-succeeded on a Martial Lore roll.

Evasive Action
If a projectile is thrown or fired at the Myrmidon from at least 40 feet away, he gains a +2 bonus to his Armor Class against the oncoming projectile.

Tactical Affinity [Least]
At fourth level, a Myrmidon has learned to apply his combat skills against certain types of enemies. He may select one of three combat styles to pursue, choosing from the Sword, the Spear or the Phalanx. He may only apply these combat styles to a weapon or shield he is proficient with.

• A Myrmidon of the Sword gains the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization Feats as bonus feats for all types of swords.
• A Myrmidon of the Spear gains an extra 5 feet of reach with his spear.
• A Myrmidon of the Phalanx gains Tower Shield Proficiency as a bonus feat.

Focused Precision
A Myrmidon may concentrate on his opponent by making a DC 20 Concentration Check as a standard action. He gains an Insight Bonus to his attack roll equal to one half the total by which he exceeds the DC. This bonus has a minimum of +1. A Myrmidon may not gain more than a +5 bonus to his attack roll with this skill. This bonus is granted to his next attack roll and does not last more than two rounds after the use of this ability.

Fast Movement [+5 Feet]
The Myrmidon gains a five foot bonus to his total movement speed. This bonus increases to ten feet at fourteenth level.

Strength in Numbers
A Myrmidon gains a +1 Morale Bonus to all Will Saves for every three party members within a 30 foot radius. This has a maximum bonus of +5.

Tactical Affinity [Lesser]
• A Myrmidon of the Sword who full attacks may take an additional attack at his highest attack bonus, but all attack rolls made during that round are made at a -2 penalty. This stacks with other similar Haste effects.
• A Myrmidon of the Spear may perform a lunge attack. He moves 10 feet towards his target and deals an extra 1d4 damage on his attack roll. This attack counts as a charge, but with the above limitations.
• A Myrmidon of the Phalanx divides the armor check penalty of a Tower Shield in half while wielding it. He may also use the Shield Bash ability with Tower Shields.

Critical Oversight
A Myrmidon has learned to hit where it hurts. His Critical Threat Range doubles whenever he wields a sword, and when wielding a spear, his damage multiplier increases by one [x2 to x3 etc.]. This does not stack with the Keen and/or Improved Critical abilities.

Targeted Precision
A Myrmidon may concentrate on his opponent by making a DC 17 Concentration Check as a standard action. He gains an Insight Bonus to his attack roll equal to one half the total by which he exceeds the DC. This bonus has a minimum of +1. A Myrmidon may not gain more than a +7 bonus to his attack roll with this skill. This bonus is granted to his next attack roll and does not last more than three rounds after the use of this ability.

Tactical Affinity [Greater]
• A Myrmidon of the Sword gains the Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization feats as bonus feats for all types of swords.
• A Myrmidon of the Spear gains the Improved Feint and Disarm feats, and may attempt to disarm from his reach range.
• A Myrmidon of the Phalanx gains the Toughness, Endurance and Shield Specialization Feats as bonus feats.

Environmental Adaptation [Lesser]
• Myrmidons raised or trained in urban environments gain a +1 Competence Bonus to their Bluff and Disguise checks.
• Myrmidons raised on plains gain a +1 Competence Bonus to their Hide and Move Silently checks.
• Myrmidons raised in woodland environments gain a +1 Competence Bonus to their Listen, Search and Spot checks.

Multilateral Approach
A Myrmidon gains a +1 bonus to all attack rolls for each ally flanking an opponent. This bonus cannot exceed +5.

Tactical Affinity [Master]
A Myrmidon may select one of the abilities listed under the Least version of this skill.

Pinpoint Precision
A Myrmidon may concentrate on his opponent by making a DC 15 Concentration Check as a standard action. He gains an Insight Bonus to his attack roll equal to one half the total by which he exceeds the DC. This bonus has a minimum of +1. A Myrmidon may not gain more than a +9 bonus to his attack roll with this skill. This bonus is granted to his next attack roll and does not last more than four rounds after the use of this ability.

Environmental Adaptation [Greater]
• Myrmidons stationed in urban environments for over a year gain a selected type of humanoids as a Favored Enemy.
• Myrmidons stationed on plains for over a year gain vermin and animals as favored enemies.
• Myrmidons stationed in woodland environments for over a year gain Magical Beasts as favored enemies.

Tactical Affinity [Ultimate]
• Myrmidons of the Sword may attack a target repeatedly with a cumulative -3 penalty for every swing he takes, until he misses or when his total attack bonus would become a negative number.
• Myrmidons of the Spear who are charged may perform a lunge attack as an immediate action, dealing double damage to the rider, or triple damage to the mount.
• Myrmidons of the Phalanx may completely deflect any spell with an area of effect descriptor of Ray or Bolt or is a ranged touch attack, back at it's caster with a ranged attack roll to hit the caster.

Mando Knight
2008-02-12, 11:09 PM
Is this supposed to be based on the Fire Emblem class Myrmidon?:smallconfused:

If so, then I'd think that they'd be proficient in all swords and simple weapons, but little else... if anything. However, the Sword/Spear dual proficiency works as a combination class between FE's Myrmidon and Soldier...

GrassyGnoll
2008-02-12, 11:21 PM
Strength in Numbers
A Myrmidon gains a +1 Morale Bonus to all saves for every three party members within a 60 foot radius.


Worries me a little, will saves I can see. But a platoon of myrmidons with +33 Reflex and Fort saves? Ouch. I appreciate the concept of shock troopers without heavy armor, it's refreshing.

Not to hijack the whole concept, but around level 12+ it'd be nice to see them get some leadership sort of skills. Such as letting nearby allies of a Myrmidon of the Spear ready their polearms as swift actions and giving them another crit multiplier against chargers.

Xyk
2008-02-12, 11:24 PM
This looks obscenely overpowered to me. If you were in fact trying to balance it against regular classes, that is. Particularly blindsense. Unless they are naturally blind. I never played fire emblem so I can't really say there.

Neftren
2008-02-13, 10:00 AM
Is this supposed to be based on the Fire Emblem class Myrmidon?:smallconfused:

If so, then I'd think that they'd be proficient in all swords and simple weapons, but little else... if anything. However, the Sword/Spear dual proficiency works as a combination class between FE's Myrmidon and Soldier...

Not at all.



Worries me a little, will saves I can see. But a platoon of myrmidons with +33 Reflex and Fort saves? Ouch. I appreciate the concept of shock troopers without heavy armor, it's refreshing.

Not to hijack the whole concept, but around level 12+ it'd be nice to see them get some leadership sort of skills. Such as letting nearby allies of a Myrmidon of the Spear ready their polearms as swift actions and giving them another crit multiplier against chargers.

Yeah I realize the saves are a little overpowered, but you're not going to have a party of 6 or even 10 myrmidons. I should probably weaken it a bit. And no, I'm not giving leadership to these guys. I feel like the combat style type abilities should be for the character itself, like the ranger. It all depends on their combat training.


This looks obscenely overpowered to me. If you were in fact trying to balance it against regular classes, that is. Particularly blindsense. Unless they are naturally blind. I never played fire emblem so I can't really say there.

Not at all based off FE. Would it be better if I dropped the Blindsense/Blindsight abilities?

Deathtouched
2008-02-13, 10:12 AM
Wow...

That would be an insane army.

Neftren
2008-02-13, 12:43 PM
How about if I put a cap on the saves and other abilities?

Neftren
2008-02-13, 06:12 PM
Okay, Cause Bumping!.

Updated the class to drop Blindsense/Blindsight. I put a cap on some stuff and revised the wording so that this doesn't deal so much damage. Strength in Numbers has been changed to a smaller radius and is now specifically will saves.

Is it weaker now?

FireSpark
2008-02-13, 06:37 PM
It's been a while since I've conducted a critique, but lets see if I can't dust the ol' brain pan off.

I'll try to be gentle.


I have a feeling this is slightly overpowered... but that's the way it turned out as I was writing the fluff. Anyone care to critique me?

The Myrmidon

Swift and strong, these footsoldiers of the Igmarins forged an empire over a period of one hundred years. Feared for their dedication and cause, these stalwart defenders are the main fighting force of the Igmarins. Skilled with the Sword and Spear, the Myrmidon is an excellent melee defender who can quickly adapt to a changing situation. Myrmidons can be found anywhere within the Igmarin Empire, but their services are most needed on frontiers or swift reactionary forces. They are rarely recruited into becoming guards.

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d10
Class Skills: The Mymidon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Jump (Str), Perform: Weapon Drill (Cha), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex) and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points: (2+Int Modifier) (x4 at First Level)

Light on the fluff for a base class, but not bad. THough really, we all know that we're here for the crunch, so moving on...



Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Myrmidons are proficient with all simple weapons, swords and spears [All Varieties]. They are proficient with Light and Medium Armor as well as Bucklers and Light and Heavy Shields.

Pretty standard here. Although leaving the weapon proficiencies at just 'swords' and 'spears' creates a massive loophole for Myrmidons to go around wailing on people with Jovars and Greatspears with nary a worry as to feat expenditures. Might need to just list which swords and non-simple spears that qualify.



Combat Training
A Myrmidon has learned to wield his weapons efficiently due to his military indoctrination. He gains a Competence Bonus to his attack rolls equal to his ranks in Perform: Weapon Drill divided by three, rounded down.

This particular little gem is the first key in this class's engine of overpowered-ness. At first it's no big deal (asides from getting a +1 to atk at first level). But looking at it once you reach 18th level, and this guy is getting a +7 to attack rolls. And not any specific ones either, just all of them in general. I can see this maybe working alright, but we need to tone it down some. Perhaps reworded it to "The Myrmidon gains a competence bonus to his attack rolls for every four ranks he has in Perform: Weapon Drill." This way, you still wind up with a +1 bonus at 1st level, but it scales a bit slower to max out at a +5 bonus at 17th level.



Evaluate the Enemy
A Myrmidon can spend a swift action to study an opponent in battle. He gains a +2 Competence Bonus to his Armor Class against that opponent. This stacks with Dodge. If the opponent is a Martial Adept, the Myrmidon may also identify the stance or maneuver used as if he had auto-succeeded on a Martial Lore roll.

This seems like an OK one. For the most part. But the fact of the matter is that you're essentially boosting the class's AC by +2 competence. Admittedly it's against one opponent at a time, but the fact that you make a swift action to change, lessens that hurt slightly. I would suggest giving this ability a use limit. Maybe something like "once per encounter per four class levels, minimum of once."



Evasive Action
If a projectile is thrown or fired at the Myrmidon from at least 40 feet away, the Myrmidon may take an immediate five foot step in any direction and gain a +5 bonus to his Armor Class against the oncoming projectile.

Here we have a big overpower. You have big burly melee fighter class, who needs to be up close to be effective. This would seem to indicate that to counter it, you would need a ranged fighter of sorts. But with this 3rd level ability, not only do they get a better AC bonus against these ranged attacks than characters that spend an entire round in total defense, but they get to move 5 feet for free, and all of this when it's not even their turn! The whole "at least 40 feet away" is in no way balancing. In fact, it only seems to point out rather glaringly, that this particular skill must've been made with projectile spellcasters in mind.

Drop the AC bonus to something like +2 (+3 tops) and scrap the free movement altogether.



Tactical Affinity [Least]
At fourth level, a Myrmidon has learned to apply his combat skills against certain types of enemies. He may select one of three combat styles to pursue, choosing from the Sword, the Spear or the Phalanx.

• A Myrmidon of the Sword gains the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization Feats as bonus feats for all types of swords.
• A Myrmidon of the Spear gains an extra 5 feet of reach with his spear.
• A Myrmidon of the Phalanx gains Tower Shield Proficiency as a bonus feat.

This beginning of your Tactical Affinity tree registers in all three of my major categories: "Fine and balanced", "A little strong but tempered", and "Over-powered".

The tower shield feat? Fine and balanced. Maybe even a little on the weak side. The spear ability? A little strong. That extra five feet can indeed make BIG difference, but the real fact of the matter is that you can only so so with, like, five or so core weapons. The sword abilities? RED FLAG! You do realize just how many weapons out there qualify as 'swords', right? Heck, even the shorter list of 'weapons that actually have sword in their name' is still pretty extensive. And you give them not one, but two feats, for any sword they lay their hands on. I say, too much. As I mentioned above in weapon proficiencies, maybe identify a limited number of swords they can do this with.



Focused Precision
A Myrmidon may concentrate on his opponent by making a DC 15 Concentration Check as a standard action. He gains a bonus to his attack roll equal to the total roll minus fifteen divided by two. [(X-15)/2]

Ah, the complex math. A little rule of thumb? If you need algebra to calculate your abilities and their functions, you either need to rewrite it, or drop it. In this case, I believe it to be the former, and I think it could be cleared up rather easily. Basically: "He gains a bonus to his attack roll equal to one half the total by which he exceeds the DC." See, much easier to.. WHOA!?! Say what? This is practically a game breaker, especially as Concentration is a class skill for these guys. Allow me to write it out.

I'm a level 5 Myrmidon, with a 14 Con, and 8 ranks in Concentration (for a total modifer of +10). I roll average with an 11. I beat the DC by 6, and therefore get a +3 untyped bonus to my attack roll. Now maybe this is a once per opponent/encounter/day thing, but as written, it would seem to be "once per opponent until you kill him". On top of that, we started with a class ability that increases our chances to hit.

Too powerful, needs reducing or dropping.



Fast Movement [+5 Feet]
The Myrmidon gains a five foot bonus to his total movement speed. This bonus increases to ten feet at fourteenth level.

This is pretty run of the mill, but makes great sense with a skirmishing type class.



Strength in Numbers
A Myrmidon gains a +1 Morale Bonus to all Will saves for every three party members within a 30 foot radius. This has a maximum bonus of +5.

Good idea with the limiting. Next.



Tactical Affinity [Lesser]
• A Myrmidon of the Sword who full attacks may take an additional attack at his highest attack bonus, but all attack rolls made during that round are made at a -2 penalty.
• A Myrmidon of the Spear may perform a lunge attack. He moves 10 feet towards his target and deals an extra 1d4 damage on his attack roll. This attack counts as a charge, but with the above limitations.
• A Myrmidon of the Phalanx divides the armor check penalty of a Tower Shield in half while wielding it.

The sword and spear abilties seem just fine, but the tower shield one seems a little weak in comparison. That one might need some buffing up. Like maybe, dropping the restriction that you can't shield bash with it?



Critical Oversight
A Myrmidon has learned to hit where it hurts. His Critical Threat Range doubles whenever he wields a sword, and when wielding a spear, his damage multiplier increases by one [x2 to x3 etc.]. This stacks with the Keen and/or Improved Critical abilities, but not both.

The improvement is find, but the stacking is not. If there is one thing I definitely agreed with in the change from 3.0 to 3.5, it was not allowing crit. abilities to stack. It just gets out of hand way too quickly. For example, I have Falchion, crits on 18-20. I have keen falchion, crits on 15-20. I have this class feature while wielding a keen falchion, I crit on 12 and up, and am therefore crit hitting 40% of the time, and I'm wiping the walls with you. Needs to say "does not stack with ...etc."



Targeted Precision
A Myrmidon may concentrate on his opponent by making a DC 10 Concentration Check as a standard action. He gains a bonus to his attack roll equal to the total roll minus ten divided by two. [(X-10)/2]

Okay, as if the first time it wasn't bad enough, now we're making it easier?! Now were 11th level, have 16 Con, and have 14 ranks in Concentration (for a +17 modifier). Hell, before we even roll we're beating the DC by 7, and getting a minimum +4 untyped bonus. But start rolling average again (11), and you're beating the DC by 18. That's a +9 bonus to attacks, on top of the bonus we're getting from Combat training. RED FLAG!



Tactical Affinity [Greater]
• A Myrmidon of the Sword gains the Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization feats as bonus feats for all types of swords.
• A Myrmidon of the Spear gains the Improved Feint and Disarm feats, and may attempt to disarm from his reach range.
• A Myrmidon of the Phalanx gains the Toughness, Endurance and Shield Specialization Feats as bonus feats.

Okay, now it's getting silly. The spear ability is alright, and I've already said that the least version of the sword abilities needs fixing, but now the phalanx is just plain too much. Toughness, Endurance, and all the shield specialization feats? This one needs attention.



Environmental Adaptation [Lesser]
• Myrmidons raised or trained in urban environments gain a +1 Competence Bonus to their Bluff and Disguise checks.
• Myrmidons raised on plains gain a +1 Competence Bonus to their Hide and Move Silently checks.
• Myrmidons raised in woodland environments gain a +1 Competence Bonus to their Listen, Search and Spot checks.

From a fluff POV this makes a little sense, but as opposed to everything else I've been saying, the bonuses on these could probably stand to come up a little.



Multilateral Approach
A Myrmidon gains a +1 competence bonus to all attack rolls for each ally flanking an opponent. This bonus cannot exceed +5.

This is actually a decent ability, but unfortuantely wasted. Even under my suggestion for the reduction of Combat Training, the Myrmidon has a +4 competence bonus already (and those don't stack). In order to get that extra +1, he needs to drag five of his buddies into flanking positions. Under Comabt Training as written, the Myrmidon has a +6 competence bonus, and therefore won't benefit at all. Skill probably needs changing.



Tactical Affinity [Master]
A Myrmidon may select one of the abilities listed under the Least version of this skill.

This far into the game, the least abilities are either too weak, or not worth the bother.



Pinpoint Precision
A Myrmidon may concentrate on his opponent by making a DC 10 Concentration Check as a move action. He gains a bonus to his attack roll equal to the total roll minus ten divided by two. [(X-10)/2]

Holy crap, now it's even easier. Now it's a move action. By this point all a Myrmidon would be doing is concentrating, and chucking his spear. Game over.



Environmental Adaptation [Greater]
• Myrmidons raised or trained in urban environments gain a selected type of humanoids as a Favored Enemy.
• Myrmidons raised or trained on plains gain vermin and animals as favored enemies.
• Myrmidons raised in woodland environments gain Magical Beasts as favored enemies.

This one didn't really make any sense to me. It just doesn't seem to fit.



Tactical Affinity [Ultimate]
• Myrmidons of the Sword may attack every square within a ten foot radius continuously with a cumulative -4 penalty for every swing he takes, until he misses or when his total attack bonus would become a negative number.
• Myrmidons of the Spear who are charged may perform a lunge attack as an immediate action, dealing double damage to the rider, or triple damage to the mount.
• Myrmidons of the Phalanx may completely deflect any spell with an area of effect descriptor of Ray, Cone or Bolt or is a ranged touch attack, back at it's caster with a ranged attack roll to hit the caster.

Okay, the sword ability is just plain ri-donk-ulous. Needs immediate alteration.
The spear ability is okay.
And the phalanx needs a touch up. Reflect a cone? How does that work?



Well there we are. Hope I didn't come off as too much of arse. It's just, that if you take it all as written, a 20th level Myrmidon, with a 20 Con, and 23 ranks in concentration and perform: weapon drill both, would be able to bring a whopping +22 minimum bonus to attack rolls. That's not just overpowered, it's game breaking. Sorry if I burst anyone's bubble, for it was not my intent. I just wanted to give as unbiased a review as I could.

Neftren
2008-02-13, 07:18 PM
Excellent. A Useful Critique.


It's been a while since I've conducted a critique, but lets see if I can't dust the ol' brain pan off.

I'll try to be gentle.



Light on the fluff for a base class, but not bad. THough really, we all know that we're here for the crunch, so moving on...

I actually have written the whole fluff, but it's in PM form and I won't be releasing it until the rest of the stuff is done.


Pretty standard here. Although leaving the weapon proficiencies at just 'swords' and 'spears' creates a massive loophole for Myrmidons to go around wailing on people with Jovars and Greatspears with nary a worry as to feat expenditures. Might need to just list which swords and non-simple spears that qualify.

Perhaps just all martial swords and spears? I want to allow people to use noncore martial swords and spears, but yes, I agree, if they're exotic stuff well...


This particular little gem is the first key in this class's engine of overpowered-ness. At first it's no big deal (asides from getting a +1 to atk at first level). But looking at it once you reach 18th level, and this guy is getting a +7 to attack rolls. And not any specific ones either, just all of them in general. I can see this maybe working alright, but we need to tone it down some. Perhaps reworded it to "The Myrmidon gains a competence bonus to his attack rolls for every four ranks he has in Perform: Weapon Drill." This way, you still wind up with a +1 bonus at 1st level, but it scales a bit slower to max out at a +5 bonus at 17th level.

Hey, never thought about that wording. Thank you.


[/Quote]This seems like an OK one. For the most part. But the fact of the matter is that you're essentially boosting the class's AC by +2 competence. Admittedly it's against one opponent at a time, but the fact that you make a swift action to change, lessens that hurt slightly. I would suggest giving this ability a use limit. Maybe something like "once per encounter per four class levels, minimum of once."[/Quote]

It's moderately based off the Stance of Clarity stance from ToB. I think I'll leave it where it is, since it's effectively an improved dodge.


Here we have a big overpower. You have big burly melee fighter class, who needs to be up close to be effective. This would seem to indicate that to counter it, you would need a ranged fighter of sorts. But with this 3rd level ability, not only do they get a better AC bonus against these ranged attacks than characters that spend an entire round in total defense, but they get to move 5 feet for free, and all of this when it's not even their turn! The whole "at least 40 feet away" is in no way balancing. In fact, it only seems to point out rather glaringly, that this particular skill must've been made with projectile spellcasters in mind.

Drop the AC bonus to something like +2 (+3 tops) and scrap the free movement altogether.

Hmm, well I've always reasoned that when you're over 40 feet away, you see the arrow coming. You can dodge the arrow... right? I dunno.


This beginning of your Tactical Affinity tree registers in all three of my major categories: "Fine and balanced", "A little strong but tempered", and "Over-powered".

The tower shield feat? Fine and balanced. Maybe even a little on the weak side. The spear ability? A little strong. That extra five feet can indeed make BIG difference, but the real fact of the matter is that you can only so so with, like, five or so core weapons. The sword abilities? RED FLAG! You do realize just how many weapons out there qualify as 'swords', right? Heck, even the shorter list of 'weapons that actually have sword in their name' is still pretty extensive. And you give them not one, but two feats, for any sword they lay their hands on. I say, too much. As I mentioned above in weapon proficiencies, maybe identify a limited number of swords they can do this with.

Okay, I reworded the swords to limit the proficiencies. But it makes sense that someone who's skilled with a spear should be able to hit something further away.


Ah, the complex math. A little rule of thumb? If you need algebra to calculate your abilities and their functions, you either need to rewrite it, or drop it. In this case, I believe it to be the former, and I think it could be cleared up rather easily. Basically: "He gains a bonus to his attack roll equal to one half the total by which he exceeds the DC." See, much easier to.. WHOA!?! Say what? This is practically a game breaker, especially as Concentration is a class skill for these guys. Allow me to write it out.

I'm a level 5 Myrmidon, with a 14 Con, and 8 ranks in Concentration (for a total modifer of +10). I roll average with an 11. I beat the DC by 6, and therefore get a +3 untyped bonus to my attack roll. Now maybe this is a once per opponent/encounter/day thing, but as written, it would seem to be "once per opponent until you kill him". On top of that, we started with a class ability that increases our chances to hit.

Hmmm... Well it was worse before, when you would do three extra damage to the target. But you are burning a whole standard action. What if I up the DC to say... 20 with a minimum of +1. Wow, I'm not being wordy at all today... I guess I was not enlightened at the time I was writing this up :D. Comparing this to True Strike... DC upped to 20, so you'd get a +10 bonus or +5 to your attack roll. True Strike is a whopping +20 for the same standard action. Granted you burn a spell slot, but you can get insane damage ratios from power attacking.

Bonus is now an Insight bonus.


The sword and spear abilties seem just fine, but the tower shield one seems a little weak in comparison. That one might need some buffing up. Like maybe, dropping the restriction that you can't shield bash with it?

Hmm, Shield Bash isn't used too often. Sure, why not.



The improvement is find, but the stacking is not. If there is one thing I definitely agreed with in the change from 3.0 to 3.5, it was not allowing crit. abilities to stack. It just gets out of hand way too quickly. For example, I have Falchion, crits on 18-20. I have keen falchion, crits on 15-20. I have this class feature while wielding a keen falchion, I crit on 12 and up, and am therefore crit hitting 40% of the time, and I'm wiping the walls with you. Needs to say "does not stack with ...etc."

Fixed.


Okay, as if the first time it wasn't bad enough, now we're making it easier?! Now were 11th level, have 16 Con, and have 14 ranks in Concentration (for a +17 modifier). Hell, before we even roll we're beating the DC by 7, and getting a minimum +4 untyped bonus. But start rolling average again (11), and you're beating the DC by 18. That's a +9 bonus to attacks, on top of the bonus we're getting from Combat training. RED FLAG!

Yeah, updating the wording on all three of them. Maybe if I put a cap on the total bonus at +5?

[Quote]Okay, now it's getting silly. The spear ability is alright, and I've already said that the least version of the sword abilities needs fixing, but now the phalanx is just plain too much. Toughness, Endurance, and all the shield specialization feats? This one needs attention.

I've been trying to come up with more stuff for the shield thing. I rarely play stuff with shields, unless it's bucklers. I'll think more about it. As for the sword tree... a Fighter already has a ton of bonus feats by now.


From a fluff POV this makes a little sense, but as opposed to everything else I've been saying, the bonuses on these could probably stand to come up a little.

Well, the point is that a little bit of their old selves has stuck, but military training has taken over most of their lives.


This is actually a decent ability, but unfortuantely wasted. Even under my suggestion for the reduction of Combat Training, the Myrmidon has a +4 competence bonus already (and those don't stack). In order to get that extra +1, he needs to drag five of his buddies into flanking positions. Under Comabt Training as written, the Myrmidon has a +6 competence bonus, and therefore won't benefit at all. Skill probably needs changing.

Oh right.... hmm... what if I changed into an untyped bonus?


This far into the game, the least abilities are either too weak, or not worth the bother.

I'm stuck on this one.


Holy crap, now it's even easier. Now it's a move action. By this point all a Myrmidon would be doing is concentrating, and chucking his spear. Game over.

Remember that this is all to attack rolls... but revised as before.


This one didn't really make any sense to me. It just doesn't seem to fit.

At this point, Myrmidons have adapted to hunting certain types of creatures based on their home area. But they're quite often used to dealing with creatures depending on where they're... hey, what if I changed it to where they're stationed or have been stationed.


Okay, the sword ability is just plain ri-donk-ulous. Needs immediate alteration.
The spear ability is okay.
And the phalanx needs a touch up. Reflect a cone? How does that work?

It's sort of like a few ninth level ToB maneuvers, which are obtained at level 17. Penalty has been increased to -6. But he's bound to miss at 20th level. My 20th level scout/rogue has over 42 AC by now.

I suppose you reflect the cone... I'll drop that part.


Well there we are. Hope I didn't come off as too much of arse. It's just, that if you take it all as written, a 20th level Myrmidon, with a 20 Con, and 23 ranks in concentration and perform: weapon drill both, would be able to bring a whopping +22 minimum bonus to attack rolls. That's not just overpowered, it's game breaking. Sorry if I burst anyone's bubble, for it was not my intent. I just wanted to give as unbiased a review as I could.

Thank you very much. Then again, we are powergaming to see how well this works. Hopefully the revisions I've input are going to reduce the power scale.

FireSpark
2008-02-13, 09:30 PM
And now since I like to always do at least one follow up to my critiques, so that I can maybe better explain my thoughts in some places, I present the following.


Hmm, well I've always reasoned that when you're over 40 feet away, you see the arrow coming. You can dodge the arrow... right? I dunno.

The problem that I saw with this mechanic, was that that it almost neutralizes all threat from non-fighter ranged combatants, as well as offensive spellcasters. Since many a targeted spell qualify as a projectile, and spells almost always use touch ACs, the caster's already low attack rating will no longer cut it. By granting such a high bonus against these attacks, in addition to the Evasive Action ability, the only thing left between a Myrmidon and total domination si almost completely eliminated.




Hmmm... Well it was worse before, when you would do three extra damage to the target. But you are burning a whole standard action. What if I up the DC to say... 20 with a minimum of +1. Wow, I'm not being wordy at all today... I guess I was not enlightened at the time I was writing this up :D. Comparing this to True Strike... DC upped to 20, so you'd get a +10 bonus or +5 to your attack roll. True Strike is a whopping +20 for the same standard action. Granted you burn a spell slot, but you can get insane damage ratios from power attacking.

Bonus is now an Insight bonus.


Okay, as if the first time it wasn't bad enough, now we're making it easier?! Now were 11th level, have 16 Con, and have 14 ranks in Concentration (for a +17 modifier). Hell, before we even roll we're beating the DC by 7, and getting a minimum +4 untyped bonus. But start rolling average again (11), and you're beating the DC by 18. That's a +9 bonus to attacks, on top of the bonus we're getting from Combat training. RED FLAG!

[QUOTE=Neftren;3933994]Remember that this is all to attack rolls... but revised as before.

Overall, I can see that your trying to make a sure hitter, it just seemed to be overkill.

And as to the fact that Fighters have alot of bonus feats, well yes they do. But then, they don't have all these other abilities. You can just add abilities to a fighter, and rename some of thier feats. You technically are replacing their feats with the abilities you want.


So, you, that was all just FYI.

Neftren
2008-02-13, 10:13 PM
And now since I like to always do at least one follow up to my critiques, so that I can maybe better explain my thoughts in some places, I present the following.



The problem that I saw with this mechanic, was that that it almost neutralizes all threat from non-fighter ranged combatants, as well as offensive spellcasters. Since many a targeted spell qualify as a projectile, and spells almost always use touch ACs, the caster's already low attack rating will no longer cut it. By granting such a high bonus against these attacks, in addition to the Evasive Action ability, the only thing left between a Myrmidon and total domination si almost completely eliminated.

Ah... well the bonus is only +2 at the moment, without a five foot step... his armor class isn't going to exceed 35 at this point if we're building this to max out Con. Unless he's going the rapier path and maxing out Dex, he won't hit very hard, which is the tradeoff of Weapon Finesse. So yes, I did take your suggestion here. :smallwink:


Okay, as if the first time it wasn't bad enough, now we're making it easier?! Now were 11th level, have 16 Con, and have 14 ranks in Concentration (for a +17 modifier). Hell, before we even roll we're beating the DC by 7, and getting a minimum +4 untyped bonus. But start rolling average again (11), and you're beating the DC by 18. That's a +9 bonus to attacks, on top of the bonus we're getting from Combat training. RED FLAG!

I put caps on the stuff. 5, 7 and 9 respectively. At 17th level, my swordsage already has 35 AC. He also does a whole lot more damage than a myrmidon would be able to achieve. His attack roll is 17+9+X, where X is the roll. Which is still 26. Add in Combat Training and that factors in another +5. 31. So he hits on a lot of rolls. Unfortunately his damage is not so great. If it's a sword myrmidon, we're talking about 1d8 + Enhancements tops. You can get Shock + Flame + Shock Crystal for 3d6 bonus damage. Which is 35k gp. Now if we take my ultra powergamed Rogue 16/Scout 1, that's plenty of damage from sneak attack and skirmish dice. Throw in a ring of blinking, and every swing you take nets you extra damage. Add Marshal levels and you get a skirmish full attack. I dunno.

Any ideas how to fix it? I'm rambling on here.


Overall, I can see that your trying to make a sure hitter, it just seemed to be overkill.

Ehh... then again this stuff can't stack with True Strike. But this definitely would be combined with Power Attack in some way I think.


And as to the fact that Fighters have alot of bonus feats, well yes they do. But then, they don't have all these other abilities. You can just add abilities to a fighter, and rename some of thier feats. You technically are replacing their feats with the abilities you want.

The fighter is also one of the weakest classes out there. But in the end, Weapon Focus and Gr. Weap Focus + Specialization and Greater Spec. only nets you a +3 in the long run. They aren't feats I would take as a Fighter.

Neftren
2008-02-15, 12:28 AM
Well, anyone else have comments?

Bitzeralisis
2008-02-17, 11:00 PM
Yes.


Okay, Cause Bumping!.

You stole that from me! :smalltongue:

GrassyGnoll
2008-02-17, 11:08 PM
Just wanted to point out that the sword affinities were never reined to "sword weapon of your choice".

Bitzeralisis
2008-02-18, 01:35 AM
Actually, I do have questions, now that I've read over the class.


A Myrmidon of the Sword who full attacks may take an additional attack at his highest attack bonus, but all attack rolls made during that round are made at a -2 penalty.

Does this stack with similar haste effects?


Focused Precision
A Myrmidon may concentrate on his opponent by making a DC 20 Concentration Check as a standard action. He gains an Insight Bonus to his attack roll equal to one half the total by which he exceeds the DC. This bonus has a minimum of +1. A Myrmidon may not gain more than a +5 bonus to his attack roll with this skill.

How long does this last?

Neftren
2008-02-18, 06:48 PM
Hmm, haven't got around to fixing the rest of this yet.

Yes, it stacks with Haste.

Lasts for a variable depending on level... lemme go add it in...later.

And Bitz, I believe I did credit you somewhere for that spell... probably under the Imperial Courier thread...