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View Full Version : Cliches you love/cliches you hate



Ash Williams
2008-02-18, 09:45 PM
Let's face it: There are some things in comic-book land that'll never get old to you, no matter how often you see 'em. (C'mon, you can admit it; we're all friends here). :elan:

On the other hand, there are some that if you see them again, you're gonna go off on a rant that makes Sam Kinison and Lewis Black look like the Dalai smegging Lama. :belkar:

For instance:

THE GOOD:
Two-Timer Date: Dr. Chaos kidnaps Bill Simmons, because he knows that Bill's a good friend of Captain Impressive, so this'll be the perfect bait. (What Dr. Chaos doesn't know is that Bill Simmons actually IS Captain Impressive, so you can fill in the rest).

Trick Arrows: Need I say more? (Other, of course, than "Ollie's Boxing Glove arrow always cracks me up.")

Little Green Rocks: I don't mind a hero having a weakness, as long as A) It's not overdone and B) It's not something stupid, like being allergic to dairy products.

Rooftop Ballet: Made popular by Batman, Daredevil, and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Forget subways and cabs, leaping across roofs, sliding across powerlines, etc. is the only way to travel! (Bonus points if the character has a grappling gun).

THE BAD:
"Stripperrific" Costumes: Please don't get me wrong; I'm not a prude. It's just that there are some costumes on females that are a little TOO revealing (making people wonder "How the heck is she able to move in that outfit?") Not surprisingly, guys are forbidden to dress in this style (no, Conan the Barbarian doesn't count).

Uncontrollable Powers: It's one thing to have a power you can't control, but you at least TRY to understand all of its functions, nullifying factors, etc. (Scott Summers, stand up and take a bow!) It's another to have an uncontrollable power, and whine nonstop about how you can't control it. (Rogue [NOT Rouge], I'm looking at you!)

Laser-Guided Amnesia: Got your secret identity outed to the public? Don't worry; a plot device will conveniently erase the incident once the main story's over!!

Captain Ethnic: Just once, it'd be nice to have a British hero who's not tied to things like Excalibur, King Arthur, etc (well, there's Edmund Blackadder, but he's more of an anti-hero). Same with American Indian heroes who aren't shamans, Asian heroes that aren't martial artists, etc. (I know this sounds a bit wrong, but I couldn't think of how to phrase it properly).

Anyway, those are my choices for good and bad; how about yours?

Wolfprint
2008-02-18, 10:04 PM
Capes that actually trip people. I'd imagine that Batman and Superman spend hours practising walking around just to avoid stepping on the ends.

W Herzog Zwei
2008-02-19, 03:41 AM
Capes that actually trip people. I'd imagine that Batman and Superman spend hours practising walking around just to avoid stepping on the ends.

Easily one of my favourite side-bits of the Watchmen. Poor, poor Dollar Bill...

Kaelaroth
2008-02-20, 12:15 PM
Captain Ethnic: Just once, it'd be nice to have a British hero who's not tied to things like Excalibur, King Arthur, etc (well, there's Edmund Blackadder, but he's more of an anti-hero). Same with American Indian heroes who aren't shamans, Asian heroes that aren't martial artists, etc. (I know this sounds a bit wrong, but I couldn't think of how to phrase it properly).

Anyway, those are my choices for good and bad; how about yours?

I completely agree with the first two, but there have been more Asian, non-Martial arts heroes recently. I cite Nico Minoru, and Armor as two examples.

Edan
2008-02-20, 08:03 PM
The Good:
The BBEG: No matter how old or cliched comics get, I love it when there is a BBEG that requires a team up of everyone. Sometimes it is done much better than others, but when it is done well, it is a knockout.

Origin Stories: This was the biggest reason I bought 52, because each issue had an updated origin story (2 pages) for just about each DC character. Besides, it never gets old seeing how the good/bad guys got the start.

Cheese: I love reading older comics just for the cheese factor, outlandish and crazy stuff, like trick arrows, or Batman's shark repellent bat-spray. :)

The Bad;
Death Is A Speedbump: If you kill someone off whose death is supposed to mean something or is supposed to die, please do not just turn around and bring them back. (Jason Todd, I'm looking at you :smallfurious: )

Turncoat x1000: When a villain (or hero) goes good, then bad, then back again a hundred times. Sure it adds detail and dimension to characters, but it gets old, fast. Especially when justification is given as "manipulated" or "possessed or "controlled." Pick a side and stay with it.

Alternate Universe: It is ok in small doses or as a plot device, but when you have to somehow keep 12 different ones in your memory, it kinds gets complicated. (DC is the worst, pre crisis. Earth-1/2/3/prime/etc.)

kpenguin
2008-02-20, 08:03 PM
Captain Ethnic: Just once, it'd be nice to have a British hero who's not tied to things like Excalibur, King Arthur, etc (well, there's Edmund Blackadder, but he's more of an anti-hero). Same with American Indian heroes who aren't shamans, Asian heroes that aren't martial artists, etc. (I know this sounds a bit wrong, but I couldn't think of how to phrase it properly).


Well, it'd be weird to have Asian superheroes without some martial arts. Not because most Asians know martial arts, but because most superheroes in general seem to posses martial arts training.

Tirian
2008-02-20, 08:42 PM
Easily one of my favourite side-bits of the Watchmen. Poor, poor Dollar Bill...

And, following that, one of my favorite side-bits of The Incredibles. NO CAPES!

Taliesan
2008-02-22, 07:39 AM
Captain Ethnic:

I can think of at least one Brittish Superhero who is not tied to Excalibre, King Arthur or any of that.

Before there was The Tick, at roughly the same time as there was a animated teddy bear with a small flaw and his irritating alien sidekick (Who don't count because they were secretly super-villains preparing the earth for conquest,) there was...

Bananaman!

Finn Solomon
2008-02-22, 08:11 AM
John Constantine. 'Nuff said.

Ash Williams
2008-03-03, 09:38 PM
Any others?

RachelEvil
2008-03-04, 04:31 PM
When two heroes meet for the first time, they have a misunderstanding and beat on eachother. I *hate* that one.


Also, on the Stripperiffic costumes: They aren't *forbidden* for male heroes, but rather just extremely rare. Namor's "nothing but a scaly speedo" costume comes to mind.

But, yeah, sexploitation = bad (usually).

Dalenthas
2008-03-04, 08:42 PM
Cliches I hate:
Super-Angst. I hate superheros who are like "Oh woe is me, my life sucks so much because I have to beat up bad guys daily." (Spider-Man, I'm looking at you). If they have a reasonable excuse for it and/or they aren't ultra whiney about it, it's ok, but some comics are just like "oh, I stubbed a toe, my life is horrible".

I Got A New Costume, But It Broke: I hate when a superhero gets a new costume and it lasts a grand total of three issues. They make a big deal out of the new suit, make it all snazzy, then for one reason or another, the hero switches back to his old duds (Hey, Spidey, that's two!). If you're going to go through the trouble of getting a new suit, make it stick, or go to a third suit that's closer to the origional but not exactly the same. See Cliche's I like for the exception.

Cliche's I like:

I temporarily need a different costume, so I use an old classic: Iron Man's currently in the middle of this, wearing his classic armor because his new armor is bassically impounded. I've seen it a couple times and as long as its temporary it's fun.

Bad guys shoot the good guys with under effective guns: Yeah, we all know that Superman is bulletproof, but it's still nice to see it once in a while. Invulnerable characters need regular attacks to bounce off them once every few issues or they aren't very invulnerable anymore.

Thought-Bubble Recap: A good two or three thought bubbles at the beginning of each issue telling you what happened in the last issue or two. Not enough comics do this these days, and more should. Editors notes are OK, in character thought bubbles are better. Even if the character sounds a bit too much like a narrator while doing it (honestly, who narrates their own life?), it's still more fun in character. Ms. Marvel is the best example of current comics that does this.

Thexare Blademoon
2008-03-04, 11:27 PM
THE GOOD:
Rooftop Ballet: Made popular by Batman, Daredevil, and the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Forget subways and cabs, leaping across roofs, sliding across powerlines, etc. is the only way to travel! (Bonus points if the character has a grappling gun).
Quoted for indisputable truth.


THE BAD:
"Stripperrific" Costumes: Please don't get me wrong; I'm not a prude. It's just that there are some costumes on females that are a little TOO revealing (making people wonder "How the heck is she able to move in that outfit?") Aye, seconded. Now, I'm not saying they all have to be as completely non-revealing as Agent Eyrie here (http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c133/tcalanis/AgentEyrie.jpg), but I wouldn't be surprised if I saw prostitutes showing less skin than some heroines. Except, I live in a town of 4500, so just seeing one at all would be a surprise. Moving on.


Laser-Guided Amnesia: Got your secret identity outed to the public? Don't worry; a plot device will conveniently erase the incident once the main story's over!!I know it's unrelated to the actual complaint, but "laser-guided amnesia" sounds like a weapon I want to buy.


Good/Bad:
Gadgets: I find heroes who creatively and intelligently use an array of devices and weapons more interesting than those who just run in and pummel all their problems. This is probably because I'm a nerd.

But, like all good things, it can be taken to extremes. If someone's pulling out increasingly-absurd devices on a weekly basis, each with immensely limited application, it starts being stupid. Not such an issue when that's a central part of the character, but such a situation would be done more for humor anyway, and quite a few of these "Bad" cliches probably would be looked at differently.

Hzurr
2008-03-05, 01:44 AM
But, like all good things, it can be taken to extremes. If someone's pulling out increasingly-absurd devices on a weekly basis, each with immensely limited application, it starts being stupid. Not such an issue when that's a central part of the character, but such a situation would be done more for humor anyway, and quite a few of these "Bad" cliches probably would be looked at differently.

Bat shark-repellent? :smallsmile:

Rama_Lei
2008-03-18, 09:35 PM
Actually, I'm seeing a decline among Stripperific costumes. With a few exceptions (Black Alice, but she's a teenager, I can't blame her), most of the women are pretty respectable. Take the new JLA. Wonder Woman, Hawgirl, Vixen, and Dinah. While Dinah shows a lotta leg, and Vixen's neckline plunges, they're still a lot better than some other costumes out there. (I'm looking at you, Starfire...)

Konig
2008-03-19, 10:38 PM
Cliche I love:

Kid discovers s/he has superpowers, and their life spirals out of control as a result.
Just a lot of possibilities, and I really just enjoy coming of age stories with the superpowers making things more intriguing.


Cliche I hate:

See Women in Refrigerators (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WomenInRefrigerators).
I generally like characters who are the underdog, and I like female characters as well. The trouble is that the female character is usually the ones who get badly messed up, and it's all the more frustrating when absolutely nothing comes of it.

Tirian
2008-03-20, 11:13 AM
I love the way that artists depict heroes who are Masters of Disguise. I mean, you can have a short scrawny old woman in a scene and you KNOW it's Batman because he just got through saying that he needed to go undercover and she's the only person out of place in the scene. But the artist just drew an ordinary short scrawny old woman and trusts us to believe that he is THAT good.

Hate. Yeah, women in refrigerators as a cheap shortcut to show "this r serius arc". I might need to register for a TV Tropes account just so I can moan about what Armageddon 2001 did to Dawn Granger (and, perhaps even worse, the crappy retcon when they came to realize that she actually was one of the most interesting characters of the DCU at the time).

HolderofSecrets
2008-03-20, 04:42 PM
Bat shark-repellent? :smallsmile:

That is from the original Live Action Batman Series from way back before I was born. Effectively it was Shark Repellent. Though I would find it funny if he ever had to use it to repel BatSharks. :smallbiggrin: Batman did seem to have a thing for Theme Naming, so did the Fantastic Four which is Lamp Shaded in Ultimate Fantastic Four.

For those who think Stripperiffic Costumes should just be glad for Magic Pants. If it wasn't for Magic Pants you would of seen more of the Hulk then you ever wanted to see.

Tirian
2008-03-20, 05:42 PM
That is from the original Live Action Batman Series from way back before I was born.

While Batman had an esoteric collection of tools in the television show, the "shark repellent Bat-spray" is actually from the movie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0UJaprpxrk).

WARNING: Do not stare directly into the video, as you may be permanently blinded by the dumb.

Thimble
2008-03-20, 07:34 PM
THE ONE I LOVE:

When a villain turns out to have 'good' all along, underneath the subterfuge. Or when they slowly redeem themselves. Yum: I love it.

THE ONE I HATE, OH SO MUCH:

When a romantic relationship is developed through a paradigm of violence. Uhm, not sure that makes sense - one example: Hero rescues Victim from Nasties, therefore They Have Sex. It's squicky.

Copacetic
2008-03-20, 09:42 PM
LOVE: When the bad guy has a brain. I enjoy it even more when they have a motive other than " I want to end the world" or, " Because that one chick whose name I can't remember dumped me. MUST INFLICT PAIN ON HUMANITY!"( A.K.A. Something blown way out of poportion that no real person would ever act on.)
HATE: When the Villain is as dump as a sack of bricks. Sure, you can afford a big fancy base and minions, but you can't afford to bribe some Newspaper editors to make the Hero sound evil and have polcemen drag him of the streets.

Ash Williams
2008-04-07, 09:46 AM
Gadgets: I find heroes who creatively and intelligently use an array of devices and weapons more interesting than those who just run in and pummel all their problems. This is probably because I'm a nerd.

But, like all good things, it can be taken to extremes. If someone's pulling out increasingly-absurd devices on a weekly basis, each with immensely limited application, it starts being stupid. Not such an issue when that's a central part of the character, but such a situation would be done more for humor anyway, and quite a few of these "Bad" cliches probably would be looked at differently.

Well, Shaman from Alpha Flight is pretty cool, but I just always thought of his medicine pouch as the equivalent of a GL ring: Just imagine what you need, and it'll automatically appear in the pouch.

Here's one a friend pointed out that he hates:

It's perfectly fine if you're splashed in the face with hazmat material, exposed to cosmic energy, volunteer for a government-sponsored program, wear a battlesuit, if you're from the last survivor of a planet, etc., gain powers and fight crime.

But when you have a genetic "abnormality" (i.e., a mutant), you're dodging lynch mobs on a daily basis. (BTW, the first person who says that it's a metaphor for racism is getting smacked). As Jeff put it, this scene seems to be in a lot of X-Men comics:

"There's an interracial married gay couple burning an American flag."
"Big deal."
"Hey look, a bunch of KKK members are planting bombs in that church!"
"So what?"
"Hey, there's a mutant walking down the street, minding his own business, not hurting anybody."
"GET HIM!!"

Irenaeus
2008-04-08, 01:38 AM
I have a strong dislike for the "righteous speech" which often rears its ugly head near the end in almost any superhero comic, and many other as well. This goes doubly if it is written by Garth Ennis.

redzimmer
2008-04-08, 11:11 AM
Love: Moral Badass Heroes.

(Example best is Batman. I forget the ish, but once he basically lectured a wannabe hero into submission for focusing on beating the bad guy instead of defending the innocent.)

Hate:
1. I second the Woman in the Refrigerator trope. Whereas Barbara Gordon was pretty much written off as Batgirl, and Oracle was in essence a reboot of her character, the indignities she was dealt in Killing Joke were not to promote her, just a device to get under the MAN's skin. Frankly, if you can bring Jason Todd back to life (:smallfurious: ), you can give Gordon her legs back.
Which brings me to...

2. I Got Better. Two "plot twist" really went a long way towards turning me off of comic, and they were the shocking returns of Norman Osbourne and Jason Todd. And yet Gwen Stacy is still dead and Jim Gordon's second wife is still dead. Or they're just clones created to get the the MAN.

Yeesh.

Mordar
2008-04-08, 05:33 PM
Hi all -

Just one "Cliche I Hate" for the moment...maybe more later.

I abhor "I am the best there is at what I do". Granted it might well not be as pervasive as in the not-so-distant past, but nothing irks me more than every character being presented as bigger, stronger, faster, badder or anything else -er than every character ever presented in the past by anyone.

It creates a situation in which defeat must nearly always be implausible (see: character stupidity, a new BTIAWID or ridiculous plot device), require an overwhelmingly complex plan or be the byproduct of a tidal wave of opponents.

Same thing is too visible in "regular" books and movies...ugh, you know, I really liked Drizzt and Artemis until they became absolute paragons of combat prowess able to slay armies with a glance.

Oh...one I do like is the aforementioned "Thought Bubble Recap". Very handy for those of us who only read rarely!

- Mordar

Wraith
2008-04-09, 06:21 PM
Captain Ethnic: Just once, it'd be nice to have a British hero who's not tied to things like Excalibur, King Arthur, etc (well, there's Edmund Blackadder, but he's more of an anti-hero). Same with American Indian heroes who aren't shamans, Asian heroes that aren't martial artists, etc. (I know this sounds a bit wrong, but I couldn't think of how to phrase it properly).

The best I can think of that doesn't refer to this stuff is James Bond, which wasn't a comic book until many, many years after it become a novel and them a movie series.

With regards to the 'stereotyping', I wouldn't mind so much, except that the Arthurian legend is based on a Welsh myth, so technically a British Superhero empowered by, say, Merlin would be the equivalent of the "Captain America Serum" being invented and administered in Canada.

That you need to major in English Literature to know this is beside the point - my "Bad Cliches" are the ones that are half-arsed glances at existing myths that are INCORRECTLY applied without good reason. :smalltongue:

My favourite of all Cliches? Cyborgs.
Not the Chunky-Robot-With-Half-A-Pink-Face variety, but the Can't-Tell-It's-Not-Human-Until-You-Shoot-It-And-It-Gets-Up-To-Murder-You, Luke Skywalker type that doesn't seem to get much page-time nowadays.
I don't buy comics particularly regularly, but if someone were to write a story about a man with synthetic limbs and has the struggle to retain his humanity explored as a theme, I'd be perfectly happy to buy it forever.

Griemont
2008-04-09, 10:50 PM
My favourite of all Cliches? Cyborgs.
Not the Chunky-Robot-With-Half-A-Pink-Face variety, but the Can't-Tell-It's-Not-Human-Until-You-Shoot-It-And-It-Gets-Up-To-Murder-You, Luke Skywalker type that doesn't seem to get much page-time nowadays.
I don't buy comics particularly regularly, but if someone were to write a story about a man with synthetic limbs and has the struggle to retain his humanity explored as a theme, I'd be perfectly happy to buy it forever.

Sounds sorta like RoboCop, although you really have to read the comics or novel to appreciate his internal struggles.

HeroicSociopath
2008-05-06, 08:55 PM
Good:
Patriotism, I love how superheroes eat their meals off the American flag. Some more then others.

Bad:
The whole "heroes don't kill thing". A pacifist hero every now and again is okay. But it starts to get annoying after a while. Especially in some irrational situations.

A) Killing is bad. Letting some psycho super go and allowing him to kill others is worse. If you think you feel bad now cause you killed him just wait till you're to blame for him skull****ing a little girl...

B) Guys like Captain America following this policey. Comeon, the guy was a soldier. Like he never killed anyone? He knows more then anybody that sometimes you gotta' be a man and do not nice things. He's let Red Skull live before, The Red Skull! He's bassicaly Hitler incarnate. Litterally. (I know he does a bad job of it, but that's besides the point..)

The Ugly:
Even more bad then the former is when writers try to talk politics into comicbooks. It's pretty sad when a disney movie (The Increddibles) does a better job with the patriot act then a high profit comicbook company. (Civil War) And Kevin Smith ruined Green Arrow forever. Ofcourse he has a super power himself... Turning everything he touches into crap. I got a Green Arrow trade paperback for five bucks (notice no high demand, hense the cheap price) and it was painful watching him trying to educate a school on aids. I laugh at his commieness. I'm sure he's constructing butt and dirty needle arrows to use on me rightnow to teach me a lesson.

Dalenthas
2008-05-07, 01:08 AM
Can't find who said it origionally, but the British non-excalibur based super hero complaint? Look up Pete Wisdom some day. I haven't read too many comics with him in it, but it seems to me like he merges James Bond's swaveness with a heavy dose of cynicism. And energy daggers.

Add another Cliche I love:
Politician Blank has decided the hero is a menace! Be it Senator Kelley from X-Men, or Henry Gyrich from the Avengers, or Senator Byrd from waaaay back in the day with Iron Man, or Jack Kooning in current Iron Man (ok, not anymore, but a few issues ago) there's always some idiot in politics that thinks that the Hero should be sanctioned. And the politician always changes their mind when they find themselves saved by the Hero (well, except Gyrich, but he's just a jerK). I suppose theoretically you could file J Jonah Jameson under this category, but that'd be giving Spider-Man credit for something positive...