An Hour with Her is an Hour in Heaven... [Monster]

[Lord Iames Osari]

Houri
http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs26/i/2008/069/4/2/Are_you_my_angel__by_Kyoko_Taide.jpg (http://kyoko-taide.deviantart.com/art/Are-you-my-angel-79573132)
http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs8/i/2005/325/5/9/Angel_by_Misato_Chan.jpg (http://misato-chan.deviantart.com/art/Angel-25461726)
Medium Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good)
HD 6d8+6 HD (33)
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (good)
Init: +1
AC 20 (+1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 19
BAB +6; Grp +6
Attack Slam +7 melee (1d6)
Full-Attack 2 slams +7 melee (1d6)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Restorative embrace, spell-like abilities, stunning glance
Special Qualities Change shape, damage reduction 10/evil, darkvision 60 ft., immune to acid, cold, disease and petrification, protective aura, resistance to electricity and fire 10, spell resistance 18, tongues
Saves Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +8
Abilities Str 10, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 30
Skills Bluff +19, Diplomacy +25, Disguise +19* (+21 acting), Escape Artist +10, Hide +10, Knowledge (the planes) +12, Listen +12, Move Silently +10, Perform (any two) +19, Sense Motive +14, Spot +12
Feats Negotiator, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (calm emotions), Weapon Finesse
Environment Any good-aligned plane
Organization Solitary, harem (4-16)
Challenge Rating 8
Treasure Standard
Alignment Always good (any)
Advancement 7-12 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment +7

An androgynous, white-winged being of indescribable beauty and grace stands before you, clad in loose, flowing white raiment. She - or is it a he? - catches your eye and smiles warmly at you.

The angelic answer to succubi, houris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houris) are good-aligned beings devoted to bringing pleasure to their partners. Unlike their demonic counterparts, houri truly love each and every one of their partners that they have ever been with. When not encountered as part of a harem for a high-ranking celestial or good-aligned priest, they are likely to be trying to counteract the harm being caused by a succubus in the area, most often by presenting themselves as a rival for the affections of the succubus's target. As angels, they dislike engaging in deception, but their tasks often require them to take the guise of a mortal. Even so, they never outright lie, but always seek to deflect the topic of conversation away from uncomfortable inquiries, or to answer evasively if pressed.

Houri are inherently neither male nor female; thanks to their ability to shift forms, they can appear as either sex as their partner desires, although some houri have been known to develop a preference for being one sex or the other.

Restorative Embrace (Su): By kissing, embracing, or engaging in an act of passion with a willing partner, a houri can target their partner with the effect of a restoration spell. If the houri's partner lacks any afflictions to be removed by this effect, the partner instead gains a positive level (see below), causing the houri to lose 5 hit points.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - calm emotions (DC 22), detect evil, eagle's splendor, empathy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathy.htm), hold person (DC 22). Save DCs are Charisma-based. Caster Level 12.

Stunning Glance (Su): As a standard action, a wrathful houri can stun a creature within 30 feet with a look. The target creature must succeed on a DC 23 Fortitude save or be stunned for 2d4 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Change Shape (Su): A houri can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid.

*When using its change shape ability, a houri gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.

[hr]
Positive Levels
The opposite of negative levels, positive levels grant the following benefits:
+1 to all skill and ability checks.
+1 to all attack rolls and saving throws.
+5 hit points.
+1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, increase it by one for each positive level).
If the target casts spells, then they gain an additional casting of their highest-level spell currently available. (If they have more than one spell at their highest level, they choose which to duplicate.)
Positive levels last for 24 hours or until they are removed by a restoration spell or a similar effect, after which they disappear. A creature can't have more positive levels than its Constitution bonus (minimum 1). Undead react to positive levels as living creatures react to negative levels. After 24 hours, the undead creature must make a Will save against DC 10 + 1/2 attacker's HD + attacker's Cha mod, or permanently lose 1 HD or level. Undead must save separately for each positive level.

[SurlySeraph]

Cool. Not the type of angel you usually see in DnD, but it's definitely interesting.

Exactly how long does Restorative Embrace take? A full round or so? Does it provoke an attack of opportunity, on the Houri, its partner, or both?

Positive levels seem powerful, but the high level adjustment means that you can't just get a Houri cohort at a low level and keep everyone permanently buffed. I assume there's a limit to how many positive levels you can gain?

[Lord Iames Osari]

Yeah, I just added the limit. Restorative Embrace requires however long it takes to kiss, embrace, or engage in an act of passion. *shrug* The succubus's energy drain doesn't mention time or AoOs, so I'm not sure what to tell you.

[Lord Iames Osari]

No other comments?

[Demented]

What's with all the resistances?

Plus, you're missing the most crucial one: Immunity to disease! :P
Granted, they cast Restoration on people with hugs, but it doesn't extend to themselves now does it?

[Lord Iames Osari]

What's with all the resistances?

Plus, you're missing the most crucial one: Immunity to disease! :P
Granted, they cast Restoration on people with hugs, but it doesn't extend to themselves now does it?
Except for the DR and the SR, the resistances are part of the Angel subtype. The DR and SR mirror those of the succubus.

As for immunity to disease, succubi don't have it either, and if I added it, I'd probably have to bump the houri up to a CR 9. It's a tough CR 8 as is.

[KIDS]

OK I don't have significant comments on balance or such, but I like the inherent awesomeness in your concept. I could very well try something like this in my adventure, if I do I'll be sure to pm you first for credits. Very interesting and good job!

[Collin152]

Except for the DR and the SR, the resistances are part of the Angel subtype. The DR and SR mirror those of the succubus.

As for immunity to disease, succubi don't have it either, and if I added it, I'd probably have to bump the houri up to a CR 9. It's a tough CR 8 as is.

Naw, immunity to disease is pretty much fluff anyways.
It isn't enough to bump up the CR, and it makes a little sense for both these and succubi, given their... occupational hazzard.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Naw, immunity to disease is pretty much fluff anyways.
It isn't enough to bump up the CR, and it makes a little sense for both these and succubi, given their... occupational hazzard.
Hmmmm. I'll think about it.

[Grug]

For the Houri, yes. But since the succubus is an incarnation of terrible passion, spreading the old STDs seems appropriate. Imagine being contaminated by a sucubus and ahving to do something for them to get a cure.

[Lord Iames Osari]

I totally agree that succubi should be a vector for STDs, but I don't think it should be possible for them to actually suffer from one.

[Collin152]

Yeah, but I thought that's what they were doing when they give out... ahem... "Negative Levels"

[Lord Iames Osari]

No, that's the succubus sucking your soul out.

And I added disease immunity, for anyone who missed it.

[wadledo]

Soooooo.....
What's the stats adjustment?:smallconfused:
I now have this horrible urge to play one of these, or at least make the character.:smallredface:

[Collin152]

Sucking my soul out?
But all women do that. Why do succubi get a special attack for it?

[Lord Iames Osari]

Soooooo.....
What's the stats adjustment?:smallconfused:
I now have this horrible urge to play one of these, or at least make the character.:smallredface:
I'm surprised you can't figure it out yourself. Monsters are built on an array of three 10s and three 11s, unless otherwise specified.

Str +0, Dex +2, Con +2, Int +6, Wis +6, Cha +20.

Sucking my soul out?
But all women do that. Why do succubi get a special attack for it?
Because the designers of D&D don't have as jaundiced and cynical a view of women as you do.

[wadledo]

I'm surprised you can't figure it out yourself. Monsters are built on an array of three 10s and three 11s, unless otherwise specified.

Str +0, Dex +2, Con +2, Int +6, Wis +6, Cha +20.

The brain is an odd and glorious thing.
For example, mine don't work.

[Paragon Badger]

Sucking my soul out?
But all women do that. Why do succubi get a special attack for it?

...Sig'd.

And isn't this a little too... sexual for a being of good alignment? Or have I been to Sunday School too often? :smallwink:

[Darke]

what about true ressurection ?

one really passionate act.

(I am sorry in advance)

[AmberVael]

...Sig'd.

And isn't this a little too... sexual for a being of good alignment? Or have I been to Sunday School too often? :smallwink:

I don't believe a more active sexual life prohibits one from being 'good.' At least not when it comes to DnD's moral system.

[Lord Iames Osari]

And isn't this a little too... sexual for a being of good alignment? Or have I been to Sunday School too often? :smallwink:
Really short answer:No.
Still short but slightly longer answer:Succubi tempt mortals to ruin with only the pleasures of the flesh; houris guide mortals away from temptation and toward grace with the pleasures of the heart, mind, and soul, as well as those of the flesh.
Long answer:I believe in free will and inherent rights attached to all sapient creatures; these rights consist mostly of protections against various kinds of harm - i.e., you're (generally) not allowed to kill a person, because people have the right to live. One of our rights is the exercise of our free will, restricted only by the rights of other people. In the absence of justifying circumstances, violation of another person's rights is an act of evil.

In order to acheive their goals of corrupting and feeding on mortal souls, succubi use mind control magic, such as charm and suggestion spells, to violate the free will of their victims and make them more vulnerable to seduction.

In contrast, apart from their ability to alter their form to appeal to their partner's tastes, houris rely entirely on mundane methods of persuasion to acheive their goals of protecting and purifying mortal souls, and do no harm to their partners.

[Paragon Badger]

True, there is nothing inherently evil about sex in my mind (and many others')

But much of D&D stems from European culture, which is heavily tied to Christianity, and Sex was evil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_Christian_demonology) in those times.

[Rutee]

Who cares? I don't think DnD society has enough of a Christian Influence, or Evil couldn't take root openly, ever..

Also, I have an annoying and amusing desire to play one of these as well, but I'm going to chalk that up to being amused at one of my players' character concepts.

[FoE]

So, what, is this your submission to the new Book of Erotic Fantasy or something, Iames? :smalltongue:

OK, I'm against this in principle. Not because Good characters can't have sex, but isn't using sex as a tool sort of leaning towards Evil?

[Lord Iames Osari]

OK, I'm against this in principle. Not because Good characters can't have sex, but isn't using sex as a tool sort of leaning towards Evil?
It might be, if they viewed sex as being only a tool instead of a way of expressing their love for their partner.

"The angelic answer to succubi, houris are good-aligned beings devoted to bringing pleasure to their partners. Unlike their demonic counterparts, houri truly love each and every one of their partners that they have ever been with."

[FoE]

Yeah, I guess. It's just ... seduction has been our thing for so long, it would feel weird if "Good" was suddenly trying to get in on the action. :smalltongue:

OK, here's one issue: houri would be basically leaving a trail of broken hearts in order to operate effectively. Succubi seduce men in order to coerce them into evil acts and ultimately take their souls; generally, the relationships never work out. But with Houri, they're just leaving their partners behind to move on to the next sad sack who needs a dose of magic sex. I think most people would be pretty depressed to lose their angelic lover.

Won't you also have to create a Half-Angel template to go with this? (I forget if there already is one.)

[Demented]

Why would a Hoari need to abandon previous lovers?
(Aside from lack of time.)

Though, you've got a point there. Evil must oppress Hoari's into monagamy. Not only can we not resist, but it's in our job description. Also, the succubi unions are threatening to go on strike.

[Rutee]

Polyamorous people aren't necessarily evil, though it's a very difficult to understand mindset for people who aren't polyamorous. I imagine a houri would need to be fairly up front about it.

[Jibar]

This could make some awesome adventures.
Think about it, you've got a Mayor who's been pushing the town guard to eradicate the local demon cult. This cult decides to summon a succubus to distract him, and it works. He starts devoting all his time to the succubus and starts pulling the guard out.
A local retired paladin works out what has happened after a quick detect evil, and so summons a Houri to turn him back to his previous goals.
The adventurers could then have to work to persuade him to side with one or the other, and then either destroy or empower the cult depending on alignment.

Awesome work man. This is full of opportunities.

[kpenguin]

This is just... awesome.

However, why are Houri androgynous?

[Demented]

A. Succubi are a classic monster.
B. Incubi are a sensitive topic, so Succubi get Polymorph.
C. Good can't afford to be sexist.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

What's with the +20 charisma? Even the most powerful outsiders don't get higher than +16. In fact, the only outsiders tha get +16 are the Succubus and the Pit Fiend. The Solar only gets a +14.

The above can be explained though if you're looking at 3.0 succubus stats (Savage Speices) where succubi did have +20 charisma. But that has been decreased in 3.5

Remember, all SLAs and most supernatural attacks are based on charisma. Having charisma 4 points higher means DCs would be 2 points higher-and CR also 2 points higher. Add to that their protective aura that makes them immune to mind affecting and posession and gives +2 to saves and +2 to AC vs evil creatures and also gives them total immunity to ANY spell and SLA of 3rd level and lower and you're looking at CR 10-11 creatures, not CR 8.

[Roderick_BR]

True, there is nothing inherently evil about sex in my mind (and many others')

But much of D&D stems from European culture, which is heavily tied to Christianity, and Sex was evil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexuality_in_Christian_demonology) in those times.

On the other hand, while legends and rumors about demons, dragons, and wizards existed, the real thing didn't, as it exists in D&D...

I like this concept. An interesting change of pace for games where every non-human NPC is out to kill the NPCs (and some humans too).

[Lord Iames Osari]

OK, here's one issue: houri would be basically leaving a trail of broken hearts in order to operate effectively. Succubi seduce men in order to coerce them into evil acts and ultimately take their souls; generally, the relationships never work out. But with Houri, they're just leaving their partners behind to move on to the next sad sack who needs a dose of magic sex. I think most people would be pretty depressed to lose their angelic lover.
Yes, that is a difficulty. I imagine that typically, a houri would stay with their partner for as long as possible, leaving only when they received word of a new mission. They'd try to break the news to their partner as gently as possible, of course, in varying ways - probably with along with instructions not to feel guilty about looking for love in another. But yes, you're right that houri would generally have to keep moving to be effective.

Won't you also have to create a Half-Angel template to go with this? (I forget if there already is one.)
There's a half-celestial template.

This is just... awesome.

However, why are Houri androgynous?
Houri are androgynous in their natural form pretty much for the reasons Demented gave.

What's with the +20 charisma? Even the most powerful outsiders don't get higher than +16. In fact, the only outsiders tha get +16 are the Succubus and the Pit Fiend. The Solar only gets a +14.

The above can be explained though if you're looking at 3.0 succubus stats (Savage Speices) where succubi did have +20 charisma. But that has been decreased in 3.5

Remember, all SLAs and most supernatural attacks are based on charisma. Having charisma 4 points higher means DCs would be 2 points higher-and CR also 2 points higher. Add to that their protective aura that makes them immune to mind affecting and posession and gives +2 to saves and +2 to AC vs evil creatures and also gives them total immunity to ANY spell and SLA of 3rd level and lower and you're looking at CR 10-11 creatures, not CR 8.
They have a +20 Charisma because in order to be able to compete with a succubus's mind control capabilities, they need to be that much more persuasive. Only 3 of the houri's abilities require saving throws, and the protective aura has already been included in my calculation of the houri's CR.

[Overlord]

I like this monster thing. Good job! This quite an interesting celestial; very different from the normal D&D kind, as others have pointed out.

Although, I do think that, IMO, these should be Always Chaotic Good. Well, more specifically, "Always Good; Usually Chaotic Good." It just seems to me that the nature of the Houri, from what you've described, makes them at least a bit flighty. They drift from lover to lover; that just sort of seems Chaotic to me. But obviously, there should be exceptions.


I totally agree that succubi should be a vector for STDs, but I don't think it should be possible for them to actually suffer from one.

I agree; I think that having immunity to the effects of diseases should not prevent Succubi from carrying communicable diseases. That's very demonic. Come to think of it, I like the idea of all Succubi carrying about 30 STDs (not all of them even humanoid-originating) at any given time, just waiting to infect mortals with them. That's pretty funny!:smallbiggrin:

However, I do think that Houri should be both immune to the effects of disease and immune to carrying them. It just doesn't seem right that a PC could get AIDS from a celestial. :smalltongue:

Now that I think about it, I really can't see ever using the Houri, or any of the above situations in my campaign. That doesn't mean they aren't pretty cool (& humorous), though.


Sucking my soul out?
But all women do that. Why do succubi get a special attack for it?

...It's the "rate of sucking" that makes it special. Most women take years, not rounds, to do it.

I kid, I kid. :smalltongue:

[Collin152]

...It's the "rate of sucking" that makes it special. Most women take years, not rounds, to do it.

I kid, I kid. :smalltongue:

What about minutes? That happened once.
I guess the real differance is the suggestion effect. Or maybe I just have a really high will save.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Although, I do think that, IMO, these should be Always Chaotic Good. Well, more specifically, "Always Good; Usually Chaotic Good." It just seems to me that the nature of the Houri, from what you've described, makes them at least a bit flighty. They drift from lover to lover; that just sort of seems Chaotic to me. But obviously, there should be exceptions.
I never really imagined them as "drifting from lover to lover," but rather being committed to a partner until they received word from on high about a new person that might need their help, which I see as a lawful tendency.

[Overlord]

I never really imagined them as "drifting from lover to lover," but rather being committed to a partner until they received word from on high about a new person that might need their help, which I see as a lawful tendency.

The partners being left behind certainly wouldn't see it as a lawful action! :tongue:

But that's the problem with the law/chaos alignment system: unlike good/evil, law/chaos is pretty subjective.

Then again, I just opened a can of worms with that statement. Alignment in D&D is always determined in the end by the DM. I definitely see where you're going with this, so I agree: any good is fine.

[Kizara]

Interesting creature concept.

Personally, I would ditch the sexually ambigous aspect, in the same way that I have incubuses and extremely female succubuses in my game.

Also, I agree that the nature of these things would tend towards CG.

[Lord Iames Osari]

The partners being left behind certainly wouldn't see it as a lawful action! :tongue:

But that's the problem with the law/chaos alignment system: unlike good/evil, law/chaos is pretty subjective.

It's only subjective from an out-of-character viewpoint. In-game, Law and Chaos are just as much absolute and objective forces as Good and Evil.

[Riffington]

I never really imagined them as "drifting from lover to lover," but rather being committed to a partner until they received word from on high about a new person that might need their help, which I see as a lawful tendency.

Lawful, yes. Good, no. If they are embodiments of goodness and love, then that sex is part of True Love, and their loyalty must become to their True Love first and boss second.

Also, I recommend against having a higher charisma than a Succubus. True Love doesn't need high stats or tricks to beat mere seduction.

[Glawackus]

I'm going to make a note of this for future reference. I was just thinking the other day about a good-aligned succubi. Very nice job. :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Iames Osari]

Lawful, yes. Good, no. If they are embodiments of goodness and love, then that sex is part of True Love, and their loyalty must become to their True Love first and boss second.
If it helps, don't think of it as loyalty to a boss. Think of it as a devotion to a higher cause - they are sacrificing their own happiness (being with a person whom they love deeply, truly, and completely) in order to serve the greater good (by offering True Love to others who might otherwise succumb to the temptations of evil). If that isn't an act of goodness, I don't know what is.


Also, I recommend against having a higher charisma than a Succubus. True Love doesn't need high stats or tricks to beat mere seduction.
"Mere seduction" isn't all a succubus has, though. They also have mind control magic.

[zerombr]

I just don't like the name, a bit close to a more uhm, related vulgar term

[Glawackus]

I just don't like the name, a bit close to a more uhm, related vulgar term

Well, if it's any consolation...
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri#.27Houri_as_Whore.27_misconception)

[Riffington]

If it helps, don't think of it as loyalty to a boss. Think of it as a devotion to a higher cause - they are sacrificing their own happiness (being with a person whom they love deeply, truly, and completely) in order to serve the greater good (by offering True Love to others who might otherwise succumb to the temptations of evil). If that isn't an act of goodness, I don't know what is.


Except that they're sacrificing someone else's happiness to serve some "greater good". And that distinction makes it unacceptable.

Besides, what's so ineffective about staying another 50 years until your True Love dies, mourning for a year, then moving on. Haste is for demons; angelic creatures should take the time to do love correctly.

[Rutee]

Except that they're sacrificing someone else's happiness to serve some "greater good". And that distinction makes it unacceptable.

You know this is just going to be an alignment fight, and nobody wins those. Further, neither of you is likely to agree, nor bring new insight to the other. You might as well just stop now, agree to disagree, and keep the discussion to other aspects of the creature, right?

[Riffington]

Rutee, we're attempting to discuss the nature of love, more than the nature of goodness. And I'm not sure you can describe whether a houri's charisma should be lower or higher than a succubus's without understanding what she actually represents.

[Rutee]

Funny, it looked like you were debating the creature's alignment based on a difference of opinion, when I was posting.

Your viewpoint has one rather inescapable flaw, and this might actually be a problem for the Houri themselves too. Specifically, when their charge dies, they then go onto the Plane of their Deity/Alignment. By your viewpoint, the Houri should stay with them, forever. I would say it's better for the mortal in question if they move on and allow the mortal to find a new love, someone who /can/ spend eternity with them in the afterlife, rather then give them a 'mere', comparatively, 50 years.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Except that they're sacrificing someone else's happiness to serve some "greater good". And that distinction makes it unacceptable.Yes, they are sacrificing someone else's happiness (at least in the short term; I personally can't see a houri leaving without telling their partner that they might not be back, so the partner should look for a new love), but they're sacrificing their own happiness... and for what? So that they can go out and create more happiness.


Besides, what's so ineffective about staying another 50 years until your True Love dies, mourning for a year, then moving on. Haste is for demons; angelic creatures should take the time to do love correctly.On an individual basis, there's nothing ineffective about it. But you're not looking at the big picture; houri are outnumbered by succubi/incubi, which means that while they spend as much time as they can with any given partner, in order to be effective on any scale larger than an individual one, houri have to move around.

[Riffington]

Specifically, when their charge dies, they then go onto the Plane of their Deity/Alignment. By your viewpoint, the Houri should stay with them, forever. I would say it's better for the mortal in question if they move on and allow the mortal to find a new love, someone who /can/ spend eternity with them in the afterlife, rather then give them a 'mere', comparatively, 50 years.

But are they still themselves as an individual in the afterlife? If so, wouldn't it be widespread to throw a wife on her husband's funeral pyre (or vice-versa)? Cultures that believed that on Earth did that sort of thing - it makes sense if while dead you are just yourself and capable of being with your spouse in the same way/better than when alive. If (ignoring angels) you want mortal lovers to move on once their mortal lover dies, you kind of have to say that you aren't capable of quite the same kind of individual love once dead.

[Mordokai]

I like the concept of good aligned succubi. Like others have said, this has big potentional. Good work.

I'll leave the debate about love to the others. I don't feel like I should be included in this, but there are good points in there. Their mission is a little, shall we say, sensitive? After they move on there are bound to be some broken hearts. However, I see why you did this and I think the concept is good.

[Rift_Wolf]

And isn't this a little too... sexual for a being of good alignment? Or have I been to Sunday School too often? :smallwink:

As I said to the party paladin in a recent game where I obtained a Ring of Pornography (Quest item), 'sex isn't evil. It's just funny sometimes.'

[Solaris]

Funny, it looked like you were debating the creature's alignment based on a difference of opinion, when I was posting.

Your viewpoint has one rather inescapable flaw, and this might actually be a problem for the Houri themselves too. Specifically, when their charge dies, they then go onto the Plane of their Deity/Alignment. By your viewpoint, the Houri should stay with them, forever. I would say it's better for the mortal in question if they move on and allow the mortal to find a new love, someone who /can/ spend eternity with them in the afterlife, rather then give them a 'mere', comparatively, 50 years.

Meh. I just figured that was why there aren't that many of 'em hangin' around the mortal planes. The houri, I mean.

I can, however, see how this creature works out. I've encountered the concept of a paramour who redeems rather than corrupts before; it's not at all far-fetched. The houri gets sent to someone who's on the edge, brings 'em back, then sets 'em up with a mortal. The houri extricates itself and goes on to the next. After all, the houri just wants its lover to be happy.

An interesting creature, certainly well-suited for fiction, but I'm having trouble figuring out how I could get it in with my group of rollplayers. Us Joes couldn't keep a straight face long enough. Be handy for explaining someone's half-celestial character, though.

[DarknessLord]

Right, A Houri just want's it's beloved to be happy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy), knowing it has to one day leave, it's job is to show the vitures of true love, and allow it's charge to be able to share that with another person. It's job is not done until it's charge had either found such love with another mortal, or is at least ready, and has the skills to.

Hmmm, I think it would be nice if after a Houri had left it's lover, something still remained, maybe like a little spark of goodness and power to resist loveless temptation (from like a succubus), a template or something?

Hmm, I might get on that, with your permission of course.

[Lord Iames Osari]

A template's probably a little much. A feat is probably enough.

[Devils_Advocate]

Rutee, we're attempting to discuss the nature of love, more than the nature of goodness.
What about the interaction between the two? I, for one, say that if True Love means devotion to your One And Only above all others, then it detracts from goodness. At one extreme, if you actively sacrificed millions of innocents to save your beloved, I would call that highly Evil, just like actively sacrificing millions of innocents to save yourself would be highly Evil. Of course, I think that that Evil isn't about valuing yourself, but rather about devaluing others (and that Good isn't about devaluing yourself, but rather about valuing others). Crazy, I know.

But love isn't somehow diluted by feeling it for more than one person. Its effects may be diluted, because you're not focusing all of your attention on just one person now, but the love itself is not. Indeed, pure unconditional love, by its very nature, is universal love, love for all. If you love one person but not another, then obviously that love is conditioned on some difference between them.


Except that they're sacrificing someone else's happiness to serve some "greater good".
The alternative is to sacrificie the happiness of the person their god told them to help next, by not being there for him or her. Keep in mind, that new person is probably in greater need of help, or else the god wouldn't tell the houri to move on.

Why do some people talk as though being moral makes you omnipotent or something? Virtuous intent doesn't change one of the basic facts about life: The best you can do is just the least bad option. If you really care about everybody, then you can't help people as much as you'd like; you can only help them as much as you can.

If triage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage) isn't Good, then what is the Good way to allocate limited resources to people?


And that distinction makes it unacceptable.
Unacceptable to who? To you?

D&D Good isn't "doing what you're supposed to do". That's Law's deal. The whole idea of "supposed to", the moral should, is basically a Lawful idea. Good is just benevolence. It's not about living up to your obligations. It's about genuinely trying to help people.


Besides, what's so ineffective about staying another 50 years until your True Love dies, mourning for a year, then moving on. Haste is for demons; angelic creatures should take the time to do love correctly.
Um, no. If you want to help people as much as you can, that means you want to help them as efficiently as you can. Suppose that by spending half as much time with each person, one percent of those whose lives would have been permanently improved instead relapse into sorrow or evil. That sucks, but since it also means you get to reach twice as many people, there's a net improvement of 98 percent. That is an excellent tradeoff. Dismissing this sort of thing as "just statistics" is like dismissing statements in general as "just language". Descriptions of reality should guide our decisions precisely because they do in fact describe reality. Saving two lives is, all else being equal, better than saving one life. Do you dispute that assessment?

"Anybody who really cares will abandon you for those who need it more."

Are you gonna tell me that Lisa's substitute teacher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa%27s_Substitute) wasn't Good or didn't genuinely love her? (I don't mean in a romantic way, obviously.)


“Amaranth?”

“Yes?”

“Do you really love me?” I asked. I wasn’t sure what I wanted her to say. I still didn’t want for me to be a lesbian, but I didn’t want for Amaranth not to love me.

“I really love everybody,” she said. “And I really love you.”

“How can you possibly love everybody?”

“With all my heart,” Amaranth said. “That’s the only way to do it.” She moved her arm, clapping her hand on my left breast. My breath caught in my throat, though the gesture was only incidentally sexual. “Your heart is exactly as big as the world, so you can’t love the entire world with anything less than all of it.” - Tales of MU (http://www.talesofmu.com/story/book01/1)

Amaranth is a good example of a deeply sexual, decidedly non-monogamous, fundamentally benevolent character, as it happens.


“But, either way, the reason you have so much sex is because it makes your field grow better,” I reasoned.

“I have sex because it brings people joy,” she said. “And… it brings me joy, which is definitely worth mentioning. The fact that it serves a greater purpose is good, but it would be wrong to act as though the pleasure it brings is a mistake, or an afterthought… or a deliberate attempt to pervert its holy purpose. It is a privilege, what we do… not a duty, and never a burden.”

[Grug]

But are they still themselves as an individual in the afterlife? If so, wouldn't it be widespread to throw a wife on her husband's funeral pyre (or vice-versa)? Cultures that believed that on Earth did that sort of thing - it makes sense if while dead you are just yourself and capable of being with your spouse in the same way/better than when alive. If (ignoring angels) you want mortal lovers to move on once their mortal lover dies, you kind of have to say that you aren't capable of quite the same kind of individual love once dead.

I think that DnD (ignoring The Giant's take on it) works like Dragon Ball Z. Weak or timid people stick around for a bit and gradually turn into pure souls and merge with the landscape, or they turn into outsiders. Only the strong in body, mind, or spirit keep their bodies and can continue what they are doing. So as to prevent overcrowding, there must be some resolution. Yes, even the mightiest heroes with the strongest loves get to stay with their mates for eternity.

[Mewtarthio]

I'm staying as far away from the alignment argument as I possibly can (though I would like to wonder why all the arguments I've ever seen for why an act should be "Good" hinge on utilitarian principles). Instead, I'm going to discuss the idea that the Houri can really love their charges. The Houri are apparently dispatched to mortals in need, all of whom they truly love. How is this possible? Love shouldn't be something you can conjure up on command (with the exceptions of mindrape, which is in the BoVD for a reason, and epic diplomacy, which we can all agree is ridiculous). Do the Houri completely rewrite themselves for each particular lover? Are they simply good actresses, able to convince their marks that the Houri are what they want?

Still, I'll grant you the idea that angel psychology is alien to human psychology, and that on some level they really can love any arbitrarily-chosen mortal their masters point them towards. What I really find odd, though, is how they are able to so easily and systematically abandon their beloved to go to someone else who needs them more. Yes, I understand that it may serve a greater Good (depending on philosophy, but I don't want to argue philosophy), but I have my doubts that they truly loved the mortals in the first place. These people are their jobs: Soldiers they wish to recruit, agents they wish to suborn, lost sheep they wish to lead back to the fold, call them whatever you like, but they're still just individuals they've been assigned to manipulate. True, perhaps they can care about each one on some level, but ultimately they won't care enough to stay with them and keep pursuing their good. If an Houri hears a former lover has, without her influence, backslide into depravity and been damned to the abyss, she may mourn, but that's still just a task she failed to accomplish. The Houri love their Greater Good above all else; next to that, their lovers are just tools.

Still a nice monster, though. It's a great concept, once you consider all the implications of it.

[streakster]

Heh. Ignoring the ongoing debate, from the idea that Houris want their beloved to be happy, I just got the greatest idea: An angel trying to set someone up on a date. Sounds like an anime comedy piece.

I so have to try that.

Great monster, btw! I love the group name!

[Lord Iames Osari]

I'm staying as far away from the alignment argument as I possibly can (though I would like to wonder why all the arguments I've ever seen for why an act should be "Good" hinge on utilitarian principles). Instead, I'm going to discuss the idea that the Houri can really love their charges. The Houri are apparently dispatched to mortals in need, all of whom they truly love. How is this possible? Love shouldn't be something you can conjure up on command (with the exceptions of mindrape, which is in the BoVD for a reason, and epic diplomacy, which we can all agree is ridiculous). Do the Houri completely rewrite themselves for each particular lover? Are they simply good actresses, able to convince their marks that the Houri are what they want?

Still, I'll grant you the idea that angel psychology is alien to human psychology, and that on some level they really can love any arbitrarily-chosen mortal their masters point them towards. What I really find odd, though, is how they are able to so easily and systematically abandon their beloved to go to someone else who needs them more. Yes, I understand that it may serve a greater Good (depending on philosophy, but I don't want to argue philosophy), but I have my doubts that they truly loved the mortals in the first place. These people are their jobs: Soldiers they wish to recruit, agents they wish to suborn, lost sheep they wish to lead back to the fold, call them whatever you like, but they're still just individuals they've been assigned to manipulate. True, perhaps they can care about each one on some level, but ultimately they won't care enough to stay with them and keep pursuing their good. If an Houri hears a former lover has, without her influence, backslide into depravity and been damned to the abyss, she may mourn, but that's still just a task she failed to accomplish. The Houri love their Greater Good above all else; next to that, their lovers are just tools.

Still a nice monster, though. It's a great concept, once you consider all the implications of it.

You're misinterpreting how they work; houri don't conjure up love for "love any arbitrarily-chosen mortal their masters point them towards"; they love everyone already (much as a certain figure from a certain prominent RL religion which I'm not allowed to mention, but which originated from the Middle East in the first few decades after Rome made the transition from a republic to an empire).

And yes, I am arguing the Goodness of this from a utilitarian perspective. I happen to be a utilitarian; I cannot see how anyone can argue that increasing the net happiness/satisfaction/utility of a society is anything but a good thing.

[Quellian-dyrae]

One way to solve potential issues with leaving and heartbreak and efficiency would be that the children of a houri and a mortal are houris; original houri can stay with its love, children go on to help others.

To keep the numbers low, you could have it so that the first child born is a houri, the rest half-celestials. You could even set it so that the first child born actually absorbs the divine nature of the houri, becoming a houri while the houri becomes a mortal. 'Course, leaving out such limits would mean that the very act of helping people in this way would increase the number of those who are doing so.

[Riffington]

Heh. Ignoring the ongoing debate, from the idea that Houris want their beloved to be happy, I just got the greatest idea: An angel trying to set someone up on a date. Sounds like an anime comedy piece.

I so have to try that.

Great monster, btw! I love the group name!

One tradition holds that G-d now spends his efforts matching people up with their soulmates. Each such match is as difficult a task as the creation of the world.

[Riffington]

Indeed, pure unconditional love, by its very nature, is universal love, love for all. If you love one person but not another, then obviously that love is conditioned on some difference between them.

The alternative is to sacrificie the happiness of the person their god told them to help next, by not being there for him or her. Keep in mind, that new person is probably in greater need of help, or else the god wouldn't tell the houri to move on.


Are you a polyamorist? If not, your answers to my followups will be less interesting.

So, say you find your true love. She says she loves you truly as well. But she says she loves everyone, and that her love for you is not diluted by that. Now, at a party she thinks she wants to go home with you and with another new friend (who is uninterested in threesomes). Would you (out of your love for her) encourage her to explore that new person that night - after all, your own love is strong and will not be destroyed, but their potential love is still only at the "attraction" stage? Would you consider it "sacrificing their love" if she goes home with you - or must something already exist in a more meaningful way before it can be sacrificed?

[Toliudar]

Stepping carefully away from the conversations about the "right" way to love someone...

My only concern with this excellent new creature, which does indeed fill a gap in the D&D universe, surrounds the mechanics of the positive level. The problem is not so much with the power of an Houri acting as independent agent, but when called by a good-aligned group. At 6HD, an houri can be called using Lesser Planar Ally, so is accessible to a 7th level party. Imagine this scenario:

A good-aligned, polyamory friendly party, on a morning preparing for a major confrontation, casts LPA and negotiates with the houri to provide the benefits of his/her embrace for every member of the group. If stat-buffing is already in place, that means that the average PC, cohort, etc can expect to be getting a +2 to +6 untyped bonus, well, just about everything. Casters prepare more spells, and cast at a higher level. attacks and skill checks scale up. For all intents and purposes, the 7th level party becomes a 9-13th level party (okay, WBL is low). At a cost of 150gp and 100XP. This seems vastly out of step with just about any other buff I could find.

At the very least, I'd make the benefits of positive levels an enhancement bonus, so that they don't stack with some of the most prevalent bonuses out there. And I'd probably eliminate the spellcasting bonuses. Still one of the best buffs I've seen.

Again, kudos on your creation!

[Lord Iames Osari]

Are you a polyamorist? If not, your answers to my followups will be less interesting.

So, say you find your true love. She says she loves you truly as well. But she says she loves everyone, and that her love for you is not diluted by that. Now, at a party she thinks she wants to go home with you and with another new friend (who is uninterested in threesomes). Would you (out of your love for her) encourage her to explore that new person that night - after all, your own love is strong and will not be destroyed, but their potential love is still only at the "attraction" stage? Would you consider it "sacrificing their love" if she goes home with you - or must something already exist in a more meaningful way before it can be sacrificed?
Well, for one thing, houris are polyamory by nature - they have to be in order to fulfill their purpose.

However, part of loving someone is respecting the other person's (or people's) wishes. Regarding your scenario, that is entirely up to the person involved. I personally would ask that she not bring this person home with us, and I would expect her to honor the request, but I would not think she was a lesser human being because of her making the request - indeed, it is simply proof that she does indeed love me and respects and values me and our relationship. I would not consider it a case of them sacrificing their love, because it does not yet meaningfully exist.

My only concern with this excellent new creature, which does indeed fill a gap in the D&D universe, surrounds the mechanics of the positive level. The problem is not so much with the power of an Houri acting as independent agent, but when called by a good-aligned group. At 6HD, an houri can be called using Lesser Planar Ally, so is accessible to a 7th level party. Imagine this scenario:

A good-aligned, polyamory friendly party, on a morning preparing for a major confrontation, casts LPA and negotiates with the houri to provide the benefits of his/her embrace for every member of the group. If stat-buffing is already in place, that means that the average PC, cohort, etc can expect to be getting a +2 to +6 untyped bonus, well, just about everything. Casters prepare more spells, and cast at a higher level. attacks and skill checks scale up. For all intents and purposes, the 7th level party becomes a 9-13th level party (okay, WBL is low). At a cost of 150gp and 100XP. This seems vastly out of step with just about any other buff I could find.

At the very least, I'd make the benefits of positive levels an enhancement bonus, so that they don't stack with some of the most prevalent bonuses out there. And I'd probably eliminate the spellcasting bonuses. Still one of the best buffs I've seen.
This is a good point. However, the costs are actually higher than that - since this is "a task taking up to 1 minute per caster level", it will actually cost 600 gp. Still, you're right, it is a powerful buff. Hmmmm....

[Grey Watcher]

This is a good point. However, the costs are actually higher than that - since this is "a task taking up to 1 minute per caster level", it will actually cost 600 gp. Still, you're right, it is a powerful buff. Hmmmm....

Well, we have, in the Positive Energy Plane, an example of positive energy being dangerous (outright deadly) if you're exposed to too much of it. Maybe getting more than one positive level should carry risks. A houri won't ordinarily give out more than one, because of these risks.

[Mordokai]

That would actually made for a sweet solution to that problems. To make it even easier, why not make it usable only certain times per day? Or using it too many times on a certain person carries risk for that person as well as for huori? I can't think of anything right now because it one AM and I'm sleepy, but in my opinion this is the way to go.

[Toliudar]

This is a good point. However, the costs are actually higher than that - since this is "a task taking up to 1 minute per caster level", it will actually cost 600 gp. Still, you're right, it is a powerful buff. Hmmmm....

Keep reading in the spell description. Because it's not a dangerous task (under the described circumstances), the costs are halved.

[Lord Iames Osari]

Still, half of 600 is 300, not 150.

[Various]

I like the concept. On the debate thing, how about we just say that a houri would never engage in any act with another who would not share the same notions about the whole thing, eh?

But still this debate opens up some possible story elements to use with such a creature. Interesting.

[Riffington]

# +1 to all skill and ability checks.
# +1 to all attack rolls and saving throws.

Honestly, I'd just stop there with the bonuses, make them Competence bonuses, and have a duration of one day.

[Lord Iames Osari]

I've taken Grey Watcher's advice and altered the positive levels to have a "get too many and you blow up" clause.

[Winged One]

The way you wrote the safeguard against getting too many is overkill and makes a houri's embrace far more dangerous to the recipient than that of a succubus. It also leaves open the possibility of someone faced with a fight where victory is more important than their own life racking up enough positive levels to make Vegeta break his scouter(might be hard to get the houri to give them that many, but maybe not if it's a nasty enough enemy to warrant such a sacrifice in the first place) and dying 2 hours later unless they get a natural 20 on the fortitude save. A simple limit on how many positive levels someone can have makes more sense, with maybe any more only serving as a buffer against negative levels.

I do like the concept(I'd even had the same idea floating around in my head), though.

[JupiterJazz]

It's common in fantasy for good aligned characters to sacrifice their life for a "greater good" and end up leaving a lover behind. Sad I know, but I don't see why this concept can't be applied to accomplishing a mission for some greater force. That's just self-sacrifice, the ultimate form of purity if you asked a paladin.

Edit: As for the positive levels, I don't really like that concept, unless you consider it as nothing more then a safeguard against negative levels. If I used this creature ever in one of my campaigns I'd probably rewrite that ability to something like: Roll a 1d6, the character rolling is immune to that many negative levels for one week. After one week all level safeguards disappear whether used or not. The same character can not be affected by this ability more then once a day. If he/she comes somehow manages to regain this favor from the houri it's effects do not stack, the character re rolls and keeps whichever amount is higher.

[Winged One]

Well, I suppose a GM who wants to make the fight challenging over having that sort of Good roleplaying(*smote by Pun Paladin*) can just have the houri refuse to back down from hir refusal to let them do that. The houri should at least be able to choose not to give a positive level if even one makes you hero a splode on a bad roll.

[Jayngfet]

makes you wonder what archons have going for them...

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Positive Levels
The opposite of negative levels, positive levels grant the following benefits:

* +1 to all skill and ability checks.
* +1 to all attack rolls and saving throws.
* +5 hit points.
* +1 effective level (whenever the creature’s level is used in a die roll or calculation, increase it by one for each positive level).
* If the target casts spells, then they gain an additional casting of their highest-level spell currently available. (If they have more than one spell at their highest level, they choose which to duplicate.)

Positive levels last for 24 hours. Every other hour that a creature has a positive level, they must make a Fortitude save against 10 + (5 x number of positive levels) or explode in a riot of energy, dying.I really don't like this. Any sort of drawback to these beings' love certainly seems out of sorts for an always-good creature. Plus, this penalty is worse than the one for negative levels. I could see some sort of a restriction to keep adventurers from abusing it, but I doubt it has to be that bad.

Also, should you add a line in there "1 positive level eliminates 1 negative level, and 1 negative level eliminates 1 positive level"?

[Tempest Fennac]

I have to agree with Sstoopidtallkid. I'd change it so that each target can only have 1 positive level which lasts for up to 1 hour, and that any creature can only be targeted with this ability once everyday with it either cting as Greater Restoration, or giving the positive level.

[DracoDei]

Have I mentioned I have had in mind something like this, but monogamous for a long while? (and it would be a template, but that is not nearly as important).

[Lord Iames Osari]

I made some changes and clarifications, and also added a couple of pictures I thought were appropriate.

[Bhu]

Concept gets thumbs up from Kitteh!!:smallsmile:

[Moff Chumley]

Very nice. Any plans on a 4e version?

[Lord Iames Osari]

That will have to wait until I get my 4e books.

[Debihuman]

Interesting.

It strikes me as odd that you'd have to save or die if you gained a positive level but not if you gained a negative one. It seems a bit harsh for a creature with a "good" subtype. Why not just have the positive level last 1 hour per HD of the houri?

Debby

[Debihuman]

Interesting.

It strikes me as odd that you'd have to save or die if you gained a positive level but not if you gained a negative one. It seems a bit harsh for a creature with a "good" subtype. Why not just have the positive level last 1 hour per HD of the houri? Especially since the partner has to be willing.

Debby

[Lord Iames Osari]

Yeah, it seemed odd to me too when people started suggesting it, but at the same time, there has to be something to discourage parties from summoning one of these in and getting themselves pumped up on positive levels before they go fight the big bad.

[Learnedguy]

Good concept. Although I doubt it's something a party would actually end up fighting against, the Houris (or whatever) makes a very good quest relevant npc. I like it:smallamused:

(Also, addressing the ones who think that sex equals evil:

Take a pen. Any pen. Now put it between your index and middle finger. And now you squeeze hard. That hurt didn't it? Well, you deserved it. Now go and have intercourse with a willing partner)

[Lord Iames Osari]

Made yet more changes. I think that takes care of the problem with the positive levels nicely.