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Rowanomicon
2008-02-23, 03:07 PM
First off I am going to say, yes, this is more powerful that the Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, and Paladin. However, it does not make them obsolete. The Cleric, Druid, and Wizard already did that.

I would like balance to be considered against the Big Three core base classes I just mentioned. However, I still want to avoid cheese so if you find or notice anything that can be ridiculously exploited then please let me know.

This class is likely not finished, but it is, for the first time, in a finished looking state and therefore can be submitted to the Playgrounders for the first round of review.

It originally had +1 Natural Armor at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20, but I replaced it with +1 Dexterity at every even level because that ends up with the same AC bonus, helps fix this classes lack of ranged combat ability, and adds to the "physically superior" feel of the class through helping the Dex based skills. Also armor can impose a Max Dex Bonus so if one decides to go the heavily armored route then they don't get all the benefits of the high Dex and, in fact, this makes it harder for this class to end up with a ridiculously high AC. The only thing I'm concerned about is that, if the character goes the unarmored or light armor route, the Reflex save might become an auto-succeed. This is why I took Evasion away from them.

Anyway, this I'm posting this so I can leach off of all your combined wisdom and experience so give it here! Seriously, please be honest and tell me what you think. Questions, comments, and criticisms are always welcome and suggestions are always appreciated.

I want to work Improved Uncanny Dodge in there somehow.

All of my own comments will be in italics.

Alignment:
See Flavour Pick below

HD:
d12

Class Skills:
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Str), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex)

Skill Points at 1st Level:
(6 + Int modifier) x4

Skill Points at Each Additional Level:
6 + Int modifier

Table: The Strongman
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2|+1 Str, Resistance, Legendary Strength

2nd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|+1 Str, +1 Dex, Flavour Pick

3rd|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|+1 Str, Bonus Feat

4th|
+2|
+4|
+4|
+4|+1 Str, +1 Dex, DR 1/-, Speed Enhancement, Enhanced Senses +1

5th|
+2|
+4|
+4|
+4|+1 Str, Flavour Pick Ability

6th|
+3/-5|
+5|
+5|
+5|+1 Str, +1 Dex, Enhanced Stamina

7th|
+3/-5|
+5|
+5|
+5|+1 Str, Bonus Feat

8th|
+4/-5|
+6|
+6|
+6|+1 Str, +1 Dex, DR 2/-, Speed Enhancement, Enhanced Senses +2

9th|
+4|
+6|
+6|
+6|+1 Str, Flavour Pick Ability

10th|
+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|+1 Str, +1 Dex, Uncanny Dodge

11th|
+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|+1 Str, Bonus Feat

12th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+8|
+8|+1 Str, +1 Dex, DR 3/-, Speed Enhancement, Enhanced Senses +3

13th|
+6/+1|
+8|
+8|
+8|+1 Str, Flavour Pick Ability

14th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+9|
+9|+1 Str, +1 Dex, Pounce

15th|
+7/+2|
+9|
+9|
+9|+1 Str, Bonus Feat

16th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+10|+1 Str, +1 Dex, DR 4/-, Speed Enhancement, Enhanced Senses +4

17th|
+8/+3|
+10|
+10|
+10|+1 Str, Flavour Pick Ability

18th|
+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|+1 Str, +1 Dex, Powerful Build

19th|
+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11|+1 Str, Bonus Feat

20th|
+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12|+1 Str, +1 Dex, DR 5/-, Speed Enhancement, Enhanced Senses +5[/table]

Ability Boosts:
At every level a Strongman gains a +1 bonus to his Strength Ability Score.
At every even level a Strongman gains a +1 bonus to his Dexterity Ability Score. These bonuses are Enhancement Bonuses.
Should I name these ability bonuses? If so then what should I name them?

Resistance:
A Strongman has Spell Resistance and Energy Resistance (to all types of Energy Damage) equal to his Class Level.

Legendary Strength:
A Strongman may add his Class Level to all Strength, Climb, Jump, and Swim Checks.
I was thinking of adding in something about overcoming hardness equal to his class level, but I'm not sure how I should do that. Hardness only comes into play if your attacking the object, right?

Flavour Pick:
At Level 2 a Strongman decides whether he wants to be a Wild Champion, a Divine Champion, a Inspirational Leader, or none of those.
If he chooses to be a Divine Champion he must choose whether he represents Good, Law, Evil, or Chaos.
If he chooses "none of those" then he simply gains a Bonus Feat at Level 2, 5, and every 4 Levels there after (9, 13, and 17).
These Bonus Feats may be any Feat that he meats the prerequisites for.
A Strongman Counts as a Fighter of his Class Level for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for Fighter Only Feats.
I'm not entirely done this so I'll add it later.

Bonus Feats:
At Level 3 and every 4 Levels there after (7, 11, 15, and 19) a Stongman gains a Bonus Feat. This may be any Feat that he meets the prerequisites for.
A Strongman counts as a Fighter of his Class Level for the purpose of meeting prerequisites of Fighter Only Feats.

Damage Reduction:
At Level 4 a Strongman gains DR 1/-.
This increases by one every 4 Levels there after (8, 12, 16, and 20)
This could be at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 instead thus making is slightly weaker.

Speed Enhancement:
At Level 4 and ever 4 Levels there after (8, 12, 16, and 20) a Strongman gains +10 to all his speeds.
If, at level 4, he did not have a Climb or Swim speed then he now has that speed, or both those speeds, at 10 feet.
This could be at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 thus making it a bit weaker.

Enhanced Senses:
At Level 4 a Strongman gains a +1 bonus to all Balance, Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive checks. This bonus improves by +1 at every 4 Levels there after (8, 12, 16, and 20).
I was unsure of whether to make this +1, and increase by +1 to a total of +5, or +2 and increase by +2 to a total of +10. This could also be at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20 making either go to a total of +4 or +8. I'm thinking of adding Uncanny Dodge in here (at the first level this appears at) then putting Improved uncanny Dodge in Combat Prowess.

Enhanced Stamina:
A Strongman becomes Fatigued (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued) and Exhausted (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted) as normal, but takes no penalties when Fatigued and only takes the Fatigued penalties when Exhausted.

Uncanny Dodge:
At Level 10 a Strongman gains Uncanny Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/barbarian.htm#uncannyDodge).

Pounce:
At Level 14 a Strongman gains Pounce (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce).

Powerful Build:
At Level 18 a Strongman gains Power Build.
This is just like the Goliath/Half-Giant ability. I'll look up the text and add it to this post asap.

brian c
2008-02-23, 03:27 PM
Okay... is this done? I assume you have more info/abilities somewhere. Basically, this is a 20-level War Hulk, plus Dex.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-02-23, 03:31 PM
Their BAB doesn't go up! At all! :smalleek: They shouldn't be gaining multiple attacks then.

Rowanomicon
2008-02-23, 04:42 PM
Well, as you can see they gain multiple attacks as though they had full BAB progression, but they don't gain any BAB. They get their attack bonus from other sources.

jagadaishio
2008-02-23, 05:37 PM
According to the PHB, there are only three types of BAB: 1/2, 3/4, and 1.

Beyond that, way too much strength. Sure, the argument can be made that they only get effectively the same BAB as a fighter through that strength. But the damage with a two-handed weapon? Game breaking. This would need serious revision before I would allow a player to use it.

Nebo_
2008-02-23, 06:13 PM
But the damage with a two-handed weapon? Game breaking.

Haha, looks like someone hasn't heard of power attack. He'd be getting 1 1/2 points of damage per level with this class; a fighter or other full BAB class gets 2, and that's without leap attack goodness.

That doesn't mean I like the class, though. It's far too specific to be a base class and there is already a PrC that does this. People seem to think that making the melee classes do more damage will fix them, but they're really not addressing the problem.

mroozee
2008-02-24, 03:37 PM
Haha, looks like someone hasn't heard of power attack. He'd be getting 1 1/2 points of damage per level with this class; a fighter or other full BAB class gets 2, and that's without leap attack goodness.

I am pretty sure they have heard of Power Attack. The difference is:

Fighter with 2 Handed-Weapon = 2 per attack roll point sacrificed
Strongman with 2 Handed-Weapon = 1.5 without sacrificing anything

So if they both want to do +30 to damage, the 20th Level Strongman is still at +20 to his attack roll thanks to his strength while the 20th Level Fighter is at +5 thanks to Power Attack.

At 10th level, you have:
d12 Hit Dice; All Good Saves; +20 St; +5 Dex; +10 to all Strength, Climb, Jump and Swim checks; +2 to Balance, Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive checks; Spell Resistance 10; Energy Resistance (all forms) 10; DR 2/-; 5 Bonus Feats (if he chooses "None"); Uncanny Dodge; +1 Attack, +2 Damage and Double Threat Range with all Weapons; Enhance Stamina

That is a VERY powerful 10th level character.

If you start with a Human Strongman with an 18 Strength and you put your two Bonus Ability Points into Strength, by 10th level, you have a NATURAL Strength of 40. A light load is over a ton and a heavy load is over 3 tons. This is a ridiculous amount of strength.

By comparison, the greatest natural strength I could find in the SRD for a creature of size Medium is: 26 Werewolf (or Mummy) Lord, Medium and for a Large creature it's: 37 Pit Fiend.

Another way to look at it is to consider the 10th Level Strongman with a +2 Strength item compared to a Hill Giant. The Strongman is so much stronger than the Hill Giant that the Giant's Max Load (1600 lbs) PLUS the Hill Giant himself (1100 lbs) would only constitute a Light Load for the Strongman (2768 lbs)!

The maximum base strength at 20th level for a Human Strongman is 63 (18 to start + 5 ability bonus + 40 class bonus) with a Max Load of nearly 77 tons. This is the same amount that a Mature Adult Prismatic Dragon can lift (more than the weight of an Iron Colossus!) and can be increased SUBSTANTIALLY by choosing a better race, using magic items, some multi-classing, and/or feats. The 80 Str / 800 ton mark is easy for a Medium sized character (63 Str +5 inherent bonus; +6 enhancement bonus; +4 Rage; +4 Orc; -2 because you took a level in Barbarian = 80). Is it possible to get to a Strength of 100 using only this class and the SRD?

Ultimately, this looks to be unbalanced.

Rowanomicon
2008-02-24, 04:41 PM
I gave them 1/2 BAB and reduced the Str bonus to +1/level.

What do you think now?

I think I should lower the speed bonuses to level 5, 10, 15, and 20.

I also want to have there be an Improved Combat Prowess ability that grants Improved Uncanny Dode, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization.

What do you think is a goot cap for the Enhanced Senses ability? +4, +5, +8, or +10?

EDIT: One idea I just had was to take a lot fo these ideas and turn this into a feral class. Still based on physical abilities, rather than magic, just a bit of a different flavour...

Stycotl
2008-02-24, 05:05 PM
legal warning: all comments herein made are the opinions and sole property of the kook that wrote them, and no offense was meant, nor hostility present. but you put this out here to be critiqued. so here goes...

any alignment decision should be made at first level, not second or above.

you need to stick with precedented templates as much as possible. bab is there for a reason, and is one of the core progessions for higher level characters. if you have a mechanic in your class that is so overly powerful that you feel you need to nerf bab--the combat capability and experience of a creature--then you are going about this the wrong way.

6+ skill points per level, all good saves, d12 hit points, spell resistance, energy resistance, enhanced senses, bonus feats, pounce, powerful build, and ability increases up to wazoo. you are going about this backwards. instead of trying to come up with a good concept and add compelling features to the concept, you are just grabbing all the abilities that you have ever fantasized about and trying to tie them into a 20-level class.

if i were you i would think first about the fluff. i do not see much to tie this class together besides just a bunch of kewl abilitites that you really wanted. i see no justification for a 'strong man' to begin racking up spell resistance, enhanced senses, and energy resistance. pick a theme and stick to it. if you can persuasively write up a reason for why this strong man can suddenly ignore a dragon's breath weapon, and have eyes like a hawk, tell us about it. if it makes sense to you for the strong man to gain as much strength enhancements by 20th level as many dragons have by great wyrm, then you'd better be able to give us the fluff to back it up.

+40 strength as is, is way too powerful, too unbalanced. i realize that by that time wizards are creating demiplanes and stuff. and that within a few levels they will be building epic spells that can kill gods, or grant them ridiculous enhancements to strength (the balance of the epic magic system is more than questionable).

if i were to build a class that is built around being supernaturally strong, i would start with the where,why,when,who,how stuff. get the background ready. do they use psionics? magic? meditation? infernal pacts? are they juicers? then build around it. give them some extraordinary abilities where they can enhance their physical stats moderately, or a more powerfully, but less often (notice barbarian can do it a few times a day at level 20, at a much lower enhancement). if they are going to get some uber-enhancement, give them a penalty too. warhulk at least has the 'no time to think' penalty.

then, plan the abilities around the concept, comparing it in power and utility to other classes, not to the powergamers' wet dream.

there are classes that are meant to be overpowered that do it well, with class and style. any of the martial adept classes could fit in that description depending on who you talk to. the wizard does a moderate job of style while being full of cheese. this class, as it stands, is just unconvincingly, unjustifiably, unstylishly (if that is even a word) too powerful.

Stycotl
2008-02-24, 05:22 PM
I gave them 1/2 BAB and reduced the Str bonus to +1/level.

What do you think now?

I think I should lower the speed bonuses to level 5, 10, 15, and 20.

I also want to have there be an Improved Combat Prowess ability that grants Improved Uncanny Dode, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization.

What do you think is a goot cap for the Enhanced Senses ability? +4, +5, +8, or +10?

EDIT: One idea I just had was to take a lot fo these ideas and turn this into a feral class. Still based on physical abilities, rather than magic, just a bit of a different flavour...

does a low bab make sense to this kind of a character? you are trying to make it a melee-god with all these pounce/combat prowess abilities, but then feeling that you have to nerf the bab to balance it. wrong way to go. give it full bab and see if you can juggle it. you might be able to convince people that a 3/4 bab is justifiable (swordsage, monk, etc afterall...) but trying to say that he has the martial skill of a wizard, while gaining all of these cool ways to kill someone is unjustifiable.

you already know what i think about enhanced senses and speed bonuses.

combat prowess: more attempts to increase combat prowess without actually increasing combat prowess (bab). and why in the world would you want to give weapon focus/specialization abilities when he already has so much to begin with, including already being eligible for the feats anyway (which in my opinion does step on the fighter's toes; at least say that they qualify for fighter-only feats as if they were a fighter of 4 levels lower or something).

aaron out.

jagadaishio
2008-02-24, 06:58 PM
Make the ability bonuses enhancement bonuses. That way, it won't stack with the bonuses provided by magical effects.

mroozee
2008-02-24, 09:36 PM
My apologies in advance for such a long post

If the idea is to make a Hulk-like character class, you might want to start with your final goal and work your way backwards. Here is my Stream of Consciousness attempt at making a Hulk PC class.

The first question I ask myself is: At 20th level, you want to have something like the Hulk. Well, I want to make him like the angry, rampaging monster Hulk rather than Mr. Fixit or Green Scar, etc. So what would that look like?

Size: Large-Huge
Strength: Lifting in the 25-100 Ton Range
Movement: VERY fast; in the 50'-100' Range
Toughness: Lots of Hit Points, Regeneration, High DR
AC: Not particularly high... he gets hit by everything
Mental: He is a walking disaster area
Skills: Not many other than physical things like Jump
Feats: The Hulk doesn't use many

My next thought is: I want him to go from Banner to Hulk. Banner could be an Expert or Commoner and then change to become the Hulk. So how about this?

For every level of this class (maybe call it: Gamma-[something]... Gamma-Lord? Gamma-Touched, like Plane-Touched? We'll come back to this later) the PC has 1 level of something like Expert or Commoner and when he transforms, it turns into 1 level of the Experiment. I like the d4 for HP, 1/2 BAB, and all poor Saves from Commoner and the 6 skill points from Expert.

So how do we get the new Strength during Transformation? You could use the combined mental stats (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) as the new Strength, half that for Dexterity and 3/4ths for Constitution. What would this look like? If a PC has a 16 Int, 14 Wis, 10 Cha, you would get a 40 Strength, 20 Dexterity, and 30 Constitution. If they have a 22 Int, 16 Wis, 14 Cha you would get 52 Str, 26 Dex, and 39 Con. Those feel like "Hulk-like" ranges - but you probably don't want it all available at first level in this class (or if you do, you'll have to counter-act it somehow). The mental stats would all drop to animal levels.

My next thought is: What if they multi-class? If they are rampaging, they shouldn't have any of the benefits from their other classes (like BAB and HP). But you also don't want them to LOSE Hit Points. You could give them 1d12 and 1 BAB per Character Level along with Good Saves across the board.

But you don't want them to just dip. The Transformation is involuntary so you could make it a failed WILL save vs. damage taken to Transform and limit the duration to 1d6 rounds per level after which the Transformation is undone and the character is exhausted.

Ok, we may have enough at this point to start fleshing it out:

Gamma Born (or maybe Raging Spirit)

Bavid Danner: Expert, Commoner. Searching for a way to tap into the hidden strengths that all characters posess. Then an accidental overdose of Gamma radiation alters his body chemistry. [lightning] And now when Bavid Danner grows angry or outraged, a startling metamorphosis occurs. [roar with more lightning] The creature is driven by rage, and pursued by an investigative reporter... "Mr. NPC, don’t make me angry. You wouldn’t like me when I’m angry." [more lightning and roars] The creature is wanted for a murder he didn't commit. Bavid Danner is believed to be dead. And he must let the world think that he is dead, until he can find a way to control the raging spirit that dwells within him. [roars]

Alignment: As PC: Any, as Monster: CN
HD: As PC: 1d4, as Monster: 1d12 (see below)
Class Skills: Any 10 chosen by the PC
Skill Points: 6 + Int Modifier (x4 at first level)
Good Saves: As PC: None, as Monster: All
BAB: As PC: 1/2, as Monster: Full (see below)
Weapons and Armor Proficient with 1 simple weapon and no armor.

Class Features: Whenever a Gamma Born takes damage, they must make a WILL save against the damage taken. If they FAIL the WILL save, they Transform into a monstrous, rampaging beast.

Transformation: The mild-mannered PC turns into a fearsome behemoth for up to 1d6 rounds per Class Level. His Strength score is replaced by his combined Int, Wis, and Cha scores. His Constitution becomes 3/4 this score and his Dexterity 1/2 the total. All saves become Good Saves, BAB equals the Character Level, and Hit Points are replaced by 1d12 Hit Points per Character Level (only roll once... he becomes the same Monster each time). The Monster has DR 1/- per Class Level, large size (which will burst most armors), Fast Healing equal to 1 per even Class Level, and +10 movement for every Class Level divisible by 3, and +5 per Class Level to Jump.

The Monster has the Power Attack and Improved Unarmed Strike Feats at 1st Level. Every 4th level, the Monster gains another combat Feat, including monster feats. The Monster can only use natural and improvised weapons in combat, never fights defensively and always does lethal damage.

The Monster savagely attacks anyone who has threatened him, his friends or anyone the PC would normally fight to defend. Once all enemies are defeated, the Monster must FAIL a WILL save (DC = Class Level) to Transform back to normal (fatigued). If he cannot Transform back, he flees the area at full speed until the rage subsides (exhausted).

Rowanomicon
2008-02-24, 10:01 PM
I'm definitely thinking I'll name the ability bonuses. Enhancement is definitely an option, but maybe something else. Enhancement is probably the best to go with.

Nebo_, I am aware that damage output is not the real problem with melee classes. Mobility is, hence the Climb, Jump, and Swim bonuses, along with the Speed Enhancements, and Pounce.

Stycotl, thank you for the honesty. I never take offense.
When this started in my head it was going to be the mundane answer to the Batman Wizard and the classes that fight better than Fighter and have full casting.

I'll try to address everything you said, but there was a lot so if I miss anything please let me know.

Picking flavour/alignment should happen at 1st level and no later: While I agree that a player should have a firm idea of the flavour of their character before they start playing, I do not totally agree that all flavour decisions must be made at first level. A fighter is alowed to take an archery based feat at later levels even if he has previously been focusing on two handed melee combat.
I don't think the flavour pick is poorly placed at level two, but I am planning on rearanging ability placement and such so it might end up at level one. Thanks for the input. Of course a Strongman that is becoming a Divine Champion would already have to have the alignment they wish to represent. An Evil (or neutral) character could not become a Divine Champion of Good.

Combat Prowess: You know, you're right. I'm going to ditch that idea and just make it Uncanny Dodge and (maybe) Improved Uncanny Dodge.

I guess I can understand why you think I'm just grabbing at abilities I've fantasized about, but that is definitely not the case.

Powerful Build: OK, does this really need justification to be part of a class like this? I know it's very good, but it comes at Level 18. Full casters are eating Goliath melle PCs for breakfast at 18th level.

SR: This really only protects these guys against lower level casting. A 10th Level Caster will overcome the SR of a 20th Level Strongman 50% of the time. All this is meant to do is let the Strongmen get at monster who have Spells as a secondary ability (so a lower caster elvel than their CR) a bit more relliably. The good saves help there too so maybe this can disappear.

ER: OK, this can go. I guess I went overkill, high HD, DR, and ER is a bit much...

Pounce & Speed Enhancement: Trying to give them a little more manuverability. As previously stated I'm going to cut the Speed Enhancements back a bit.

Enhanced Senses: Well, OK, this is where I should mention that "Strongman" is a working title. I was also thinking Physical Champion, Herculean, and some other, but nothing has sounded really good to me. To be honest I think "Strongman" sound spretty lame, but it's a working title, like I said.
The Enhances Senses idea has been part of this class since day one. Even before I made this class so Strength based (It was originally just general superiority, but not magically, so stronger, faster, better endurance, better senses, etc.).

I'll definitely be working on this and that includes writing more stuff up about fluff and what not. I am trying to leave the fluff vague and msotly handled by the flavour choice because I've always firmly believed that the player should be able to choose their own fluff for their character. If I want to play a character with the Paladin abilities but don't want to play the archtypal holy warrior then who are the game designers to tell me what role I can play in a role playing game? If the player wants a character in this clas to be naturally this strong, divinely gifted, the son of a god, a steroid user, magically imbued with strength, a mutant, psionically augmenting their musculature, etc then that's their choice. Who am I to say that they must choose this as the fluff basis for where they get their crunch from?
Anyway, I'm in Guatemal right now, but I'm heading home on the 28th. My life is kind of jumbled, but I'll do what work on this that I can.

You think I should totaly ditch the Enhanced Senses and Speed?

Stycotl
2008-02-25, 04:10 PM
rowan: i read through my earlier posts and realized that there was not much in the way of positive criticism. not because i don't see anything positive, but just cuz i was too quick to start pointing out things that i didn't like, rather than look closer and take a look at things that i do like. my bad. mote & beam dealio.

there are things that i like immensely about this idea. i am having a few serious debates in my mind, and one of them is whether this ought to be a prc. i know, i know, hulk already exists. it just *feels* like a prc. but then i think about it a little more; there is no reason why this could not be a base class. flavorwise, i'm lost, cuz you haven't put much up to give me a visual (and i am very visually oriented). however, even just mentioning the name hercules gave me an immediate sense of direction. we can start from there.

now that i am thinking about this though, this would make a killer template of some sort.

ditch speed? no. but i wouldn't go any faster than a barb or scout. definately not near a monk.

enhanced senses: i suppose i am not sure what your overall purpose is here. i think that fluff would help a lot. most class descriptions give you enough to get their flavor, but leave out specifics, such as where they train, who trains them, who the head of their order is, etc. write something up like this:

"hercules (what i'll call them for now) are mortals blessed with the potent blood of divinity--the martial answer to sorcerers, favored souls, and warlocks. While some hercules are actually empowered by sources other than having titans, demi-gods, and archons in their distant ancestry--some are fiend-blooded, others gifted of the fey, or aberrant-related, some the result of arcane experimentation--they all share the potential for extraordinary physical and tactical capability.

then something about how it works (can summon immense strength for short bursts, can move faster than quicksilver, etc)

then something about their drawbacks (there would have to be something of a drawback with a class like this (hercules can only develop the power of their blood through rigorous disciplines, some fatigue effect, code of conduct, etc)"

etc. with stuff like that, it gives us direction, so we know what is going on. it gives personality/story ideas. it gives concrete logistics as to why the character is the way he or she is. but at the same time, it is malleable, and can be changed as needed.

some pointers (a few, i have already mentioned). i would make the enhancement temporary. something like a barbarian rage. you could probably add permanent bonues too, but i would only do a few, and would keep the majority in an ability that had to be initiated in a rage-like effect.

i would give him full base attack bonus and work everything around that. even the warhulk has full bab. i seriously think that nerfing bab to give more abilities, and to balance against the strength bonuses is a bad idea.

i would make the enhancements variable. maybe a character wants to be more like the flash than the hulk. let him dump the enhancement into dex, or maybe a dwarf wants ridiculous constitution, while someone else wants a good balance between the three stats.

i would maybe give the option for different abilities at different levels, but not all of them (example: level one--bonus feat: power attack or improved dodge (mostly cuz i don't use dodge in houserule games); level six--choose between powerful build or ability to use haste for one round/level/day; etc). maybe like the 10th level rogue tricks. anything else that was set, i would limit, or focus down very much so (example: instead of differing abilites such as enhanced senses, energy resistance, pounce, etc, i would make a tree-like progression of abilities that synergized. lightning reflexes at one level, combat reflexes at another, then evasion at another, then uncanny dodge, then improved evasion, etc).

i'm sure i had more thoughts, but i'm blanking now. anyway, give us some flavor text and we can see more clearly what you are trying to do.

aaron out.

Kioran
2008-02-25, 04:28 PM
I like the ideas of this, but to be frank, I think the only way of fixing Melee for good is to rewrite half the system, pracitically creating 3.75.....or 4th Ed. This class does some things I think any class based on physical combat should do - increase the characterīs physical power, not only his technique.

For me, Character power has always been a composite of
1: Physical Power (P): Stats (a Dire Bearīs high strength for example), HD, BAB. The way to apply it is with straightforward attacks in melee. Can also be defensive, like DR or SR.
2: Technique(T): Sneak attack, Crippling strike, Cleave, Improved XY, Stunning Fist. Power Attack etc.. Most applications of this are through special maneuvers in combat, which require some physical power, but are not entirely dependent on it.
3: Magic(M): Spells, SLAs, ToB Maneuvers. Limited Use powerful abilities that come with their own rules and significantly impact the situation they are employed in. Not even necessesarily dependent on physical power.

In all prior editions, Character advance the T & M components mainly, while only slowly growing in the P department. I always found this a little irritating - it is more realistic (maybe the designer did not want average Characters to lift tanks or their equivalent), but it stops many kinds of non-magical awesomeness. Why couldnīt an amount of training that allows a normal, frail old man to smash a wall with a hairpin (Strike of perfect clarity from ToB) purely by application of perfect technique not be sufficient to enable a normal person to develop homungous strength and toss around ogres?

I donīt quite see why, thatīs why this classī idea is good. That said, a few of my recommendations (in case you want to keep the class at itīs current power-lvl):

- 1/2 BAB, if for the sake of keeping conventions
- additional Slam Attacks, and a (Ex) ability that allwos you to apply them to Full Attacks first, Charges later on. Gives mobility, multiple attacks and keeps the gamesīconventions
- Broader Stat increases - +20 Strength is fully sufficient, garner with +10 Dex, +8 Con (for additional HP and better saves) and +4 Wis. Inccreases the overall capabilites better, and I think many would simplyy balk at Halflings capable of tossing around cloud giants. Now, theyīre not more powerful, but almost as tough and faster, generally more well rounded
- SR equal to 5 + class lvl suits this better

Iīm still convinced this concept doesnīt entirely work with the current ruleset, but I salute your effort.

Stycotl
2008-02-25, 04:35 PM
i have to agree with what the last poster said, about the system not really catering to a class like this. that is one of the reason why i like the mechanics of the old world of darkness a lot more. no levels. no level dependent stuff.

anyway, i don't think that there is any way to go about this class without stepping on the toes of the barbarian or fighter. one of the reasons that i like the idea of making this a prc. anyway, it really is a good idea, just not well-suported by a finite, and tunnel-visioned (wizards and kin) system like this.

Kioran
2008-02-25, 05:06 PM
i have to agree with what the last poster said, about the system not really catering to a class like this. that is one of the reason why i like the mechanics of the old world of darkness a lot more. no levels. no level dependent stuff.

anyway, i don't think that there is any way to go about this class without stepping on the toes of the barbarian or fighter. one of the reasons that i like the idea of making this a prc. anyway, it really is a good idea, just not well-suported by a finite, and tunnel-visioned (wizards and kin) system like this.

In itīs current incarnation, any such class steps on the toes of existing martial classes, since thereīs practically nothing it canīt do as well. Thatīs seemingly intentional though:


First off I am going to say, yes, this is more powerful that the Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, and Paladin. However, it does not make them obsolete. The Cleric, Druid, and Wizard already did that.

I would like balance to be considered against the Big Three core base classes I just mentioned. However, I still want to avoid cheese so if you find or notice anything that can be ridiculously exploited then please let me know.

That said, if there ever was such a thing as a 3.5 rework or a sane 4th Ed. not built around making everyone magic (or at least use itīs current system, effectively making every character use special attacks all the time), any Fighting class should have stat increases and physical growth of some sort, effectively becoming a bruiser-monster.

Rowanomicon
2008-02-25, 07:08 PM
I'm really glad I'm getting some positive feedback on the increasing of abilities. I know that some people think that ability bonuses are almost taboo, and I agree for certain things, but it is generall the specific ability based mechanic that is broken, not the ability. Ex. It's the rules of Diplomacy (and UMD) that make Charaisma so strong. It's the strength of casting that makes casting stats so strong.

I also think that one of the basises of physical heros in fantasy is that they are physically superior. Sometimes it's just being naturally gifted and sometimes it's divine strength (Hercules).

However, I do agree that the current system is not built very well for things like this. If one's Strength is too high then there are certain unbalancing factors. The worst of which, I think, is tripping (again because of the rules of tripping, not because of strength itself). If one's Dex is too high then they, if they also have a good reflex save (and especially if they have evasion and improved evasion), that is unbalanced. Likewise too high a Dex boosts HIde and Move Silently to the point that no one can make the opposed Spot and Listen checks...

I digress, and I'm sure you are all just as aware of the problems as I, if not more.

I thought about giving them an improved unarmed damage type ability, but I figured that it kind of comes with the boosted strength and, with all the bonus feats, a player can easily make an unarmed combatant with this class.

Haste is something I tossed around in my head ofr these guys. If I can find room for it I may just throw it in there. I did kind of want to avoid anything that looked like spell casting though.

Kioran,
I thought about adding in other stat bonuses, but I'm not sure. Good HD and Fort already do the main purpose of a good Con score and players will likely have at least 12 Con going into this class. Good will and Enhances Senses also do the main jobs of Wis for this class. I think if Wis were to be boosted it might replace the Enhanced Senses bit. I don't really want to make this a class of only ability boosts... or do I? (evil laugh)

You think I should raise SR to 5 + Class Level... I'm just thinking about that now because as it is a first level caster would overcome the SR half the time when the Herculean (I'm beginning to like that name more) was at level 11 so I think you're right.

Stycotl,
I'll add more flavour text for this class once I'm back home in Canada. I am current on the last leg of my Central American adventure, and good thing too because I'm comeing down with something. I hope it's nothing too scary considering I've been in the tropics for the last two months.

I think you're right. I'll make the Speed thing a simple one shot +10 (maybe +20 over two doses, but we'll see).

The enhanced senses is added for a basic natural superiority feel. Like Superman has not only super strength, reflexes, endurance, speed, and invulnerability, but also super senses. Now I'm not planning on aproaching Superman in levels of power because, well, he's simply too powerful. He can hear if you have cancer!

I'm pretty sure that the War Hulk PrC does not grant any BAB...

I'll mull around the idea of temporary bursts and drawbacks in my head and see what I come up with. I'm definitely not adverse to the idea of drawback, or even temporary (Rage like) enhancement, but I want them to actually have the superior Strength etc, not just be able to "cast" an ability to get it.

More options is a good idea. I'll see what I can come up with there too.

As for BAB, I don't want to shoehorn players into making their character a hard trainer. Maybe he's just naturally gifted. If he is more of a heavy trainer than I think they can choose feats to reflect that. The problem with giving Full BAB is that a character with Full BAB already has the attack bonus to sacrafice even without being super strong. So if I give Full BAB I couldn't justify any Str bonuses really, maybe up to +5 if I named it Enhancement so you can't use magical items to further boost it, but then you just have a Fighter with a built in Tome of Fitness (or whatever it's called). I'm not looking to simply ad things to existing melee classes (if I were I'd give the Barbarian Fast Healing, Natural Claw Attacks, Good Reflex, and call it Feral).

I can understand not wanting a BAB progression that we've never seen before, that makes sense to me. We've only seen 0/4, 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4 HD, now I wouldn't think twice about putting a 1/4 HD progression into a homebrew class if it fit the class, but it doesn't fit this class.

Stycotl
2008-02-26, 12:28 AM
rowan said:

I'm pretty sure that the War Hulk PrC does not grant any BAB...

i can't even remember what book it is in right now, but i have its stats written down in my sketchbook, and i have it listed as full bab, good fort, bad reflex and will. it is possible that if i saw a class that didn't have bab progression, i frowned (i can't stand monster levels for that reason: spend one precious hit dice on a level that doesn't even give hit point, bab, and save increases. stupid idea), and wrote one in, but i don't seem to remember doing this.

Kioran
2008-02-26, 06:41 AM
rowan said:


i can't even remember what book it is in right now, but i have its stats written down in my sketchbook, and i have it listed as full bab, good fort, bad reflex and will. it is possible that if i saw a class that didn't have bab progression, i frowned (i can't stand monster levels for that reason: spend one precious hit dice on a level that doesn't even give hit point, bab, and save increases. stupid idea), and wrote one in, but i don't seem to remember doing this.

War Hulk is from miniatures handbook, and no, it doesnīt get any BAB, and is unique in that regard. It does, however, gain +2 Strength every lvl and abilities that let it hit all targets within reach with one attack. Itīs the proverbial giant sweeping aside the dwarflike humans before him.......

Rowanomicon
2008-02-26, 05:18 PM
It's also available online somewhere for free. I think perhaps the WotC Minatures Handbook Online Preview

Stycotl
2008-02-27, 12:44 AM
sigh. i went to barnes and k-nobblies today to look up warhulk. i was wrong. stupid, bab-less prc. *giving a raspberry.*

Timaoh
2008-02-27, 09:56 AM
But thats a PRC not a base class!... ?


I want to see more flavour for this class. I mean what makes him so dang strong anyways? Is it because he works out all the time? A special diet? There should be something that grants him his strength and if the regime is interupted maybe he suffers a penalty. I think that would be more balancing and in line with say a wizard or other casting class that needs to prep spells.

Maybe instead of needing X hours to prepare spells he needs X hours of workout time per day or something?

I have to admit i like the idea of this class if not the mechanics and everyone before me has listed most of the reasons why so i wont be redundant. I think it needs a clearer sense of what he is and how he does what he does. That might help me lean towards which feats should stay and which ones should get cut. As of right now he seems to be a hodge-podge of all the "goodies" in the book. He has so much sweetness at first glance he gave me a tummy ache.

I honestly don't understand why a "strongman" would get sensory bonuses, a speed increase, or half the other abilities you gave him flavour wise. Maybe if you could clear this up for my i could give some actual input or advice. As of right now i don't see this as a class. He's just 20 levels of every feat and ability a fighter might want in a wet-dream.

Rowanomicon
2008-02-27, 10:52 AM
More flavour etc coming when:
A) I'm back in Canada
B) I have free internet access
C) I've gotten rid of my tropical disease

Stycotl
2008-02-27, 10:28 PM
But thats a PRC not a base class!... ?

yep, as we've already talked about. what's yer point?