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TempusCCK
2008-02-28, 02:13 PM
Arcane Hunter-

Str:12
Dex:15
Con:15
Wis:8
Int:15
Cha: 18

1. Sorc1- 1st Feat - Arcane Preparation (CompArc) Human-Heighten Spell
2. Sorc2
3. Sorc3- Smiting Spell
4. Sorc4
5. Sorc5
6. Sorc6. -Extra Slot (3rd level)
7. Fighter1- Mage Slayer(CompArc)
8. Fighter2.- Blind Fight
9. Fighter 3.-Pierce Magical Concealment (CompArc)
10. Fighter4.-Pierce Magical Protection.(CompArc)
11. Sorc7.
12. Sorc8. Practiced Spellcaster
13. Sorc. 9
14. Sorc 10
15. Sorc 11- Vatic Gaze
16. Sorc. 12
17. Sorc13-
18. Sorc14.-Extra Slot (6th)
19. Sorc 15
20 Sorc 16

Skills- Spellcraft 21, Knowledge (Arcana) 21, Sense Motive 11, Concentration 21.

Sorceror Spells Known:
0: Light, Prestidigitation, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Arcane Mark, Launch Item (SC)
1: True Strike, Dispel Ward (SC), Fist of Stone (CompArc), Feather Fall, Grease
2: Web, Knock, Ray of Stupidity (SC), Rope Trick, Invisibility
3: Dispel Magic, Fly, Unluck (SC), Blink
4. Dimensional Anchor, Dimension Door, Dispelling Screen, Assay Spell Resistance
5. Teleport, Nightmare, Overland Flight, Duelward
6: Greater Dispel Magic, Anti-Magic Field, Disintegrate
7: Scrying, Greater, Antimagic Ray, Greater Dispelling Screen
8: Mink Blank

The jist of this character is that by combining Spell Preparation and various metamagics (Heighten, Smiting), you can create a sorceror with several levels of Dispel and Greater Dispelling effects each day. With so many Counterspells at his disposal, he can become the ultimate Arcane caster hunting machine. Neutralizing all of his foes abilities to attack him with the Dispels and Counterspells, and then using his combat-oriented gear and Fighter abilities to slay his opponents.

Each morning he casts and prepares certain spells, including a Overland Flight and Mind Blank on himself.
He spends most, (if not all) of his 4th level spell slots on Heightened Dispel Magics, as well, he will prepare a few Heightened, Smiting Dispel Magics with his 5th Level Spellslots, always saving one for teleport. If he needs to scry, he will save a single 7th level spell slot for that, or if he has the 100 Gold in rubies for using his Ray of Antimagic., but most of them will go toward Heightened Greater Dispel Magic. His 8th level slots, except for the daily Mind Blank, will be prepared as Heightened, Smiting Greater Dispel Magics, giving him a possible 21 chances for counter spelling and 9 chances to dispel on an attack. The Vatic Gaze feat allows him to instantaneously size up an enemy and know what spells they are capable of, as well he gets full caster level checks from his sorceror levels and Practiced Spellcaster, his max ranks in Spellcraft will allow him to successfully counter spell most spells cast around him

He will use his smiting spells primarily in his crossbow, if anything is left or is not dispelled by his other effects. From there he will continue to counter spell and slowly close the distance, waiting to put his primary weapon (spear) to use. While doing this, if he has a chance to cast any combat buffs, he will.


What I need from you:

I need recommendations for gear and prices. I'm bad with WBL because I never use it. An item (perhaps wand) of Duelward is definately a necessity. As well, however high we can get his AC with items is nice. Items of True Seeing, blah blah, anything that makes him more effective at killing other mages is a good idea.

Moff Chumley
2008-02-28, 02:17 PM
I pressume you're ignoring the wealth of Anti-Mage PrC's for a reason?

TempusCCK
2008-02-28, 04:55 PM
I've never seen one that would honestly be better than what I have here. I need the spells per day for the counterspelling and the fighter levels provide the ability to easily hit with the anti-magic ray if need be.

However, a Focus Specialist (Abjuration)16/Fighter 4 might be the way to go with this one. I'd have to think about it some.

mostlyharmful
2008-02-28, 05:43 PM
You take those mage slayer feats and no matter how many practised spellcasters you take, even with an orange Ioun stone and what have you there's no way you're dispells are going to cut the mustard against a full caster let alone an optimized batman. Gish builds are useful and powerful against most opponents but full casters aren't some of them, the best bet on a mage-slayer PC is unfortunately anything with full casting both because they can match up to the grab bag of heinously overpowered tricks and that their CL is high enough to stand a chance of breaking thier first line of buffs.

Yakk
2008-02-28, 05:47 PM
Fighter 2/Sorc 6
Abj Champion 5
Eldrich Knight 7

Downside: 1 less feat (have to purchase Combat Casting).
Upside: L 17 Sorcerer casting instead of L 16.
BaB: +14 instead of +12
Abj. Champion special abilities (swift level 1 and 2 abjurations, double duration from abjurations, burn spells for melee power, etc).
HP: 16 more HP than your build

The 16th to 17th level spell table boost alone gives you a 7th and 8th level spell -- which is strictly better than your extra 6th level spell slot you burned a feat on.

You could even go further:
Sorc 6/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 1
Abj. Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 8

which costs you 1 feat (burn another extra spell slot), 2 HP over my previous build, and grants you full 18th level sorcerer spell progression.

(Going from 17 to 18 spell progression is another 1 8th and 3 9th level spells/day!)

Progression changes as follows:
1. Sorc1- 1st Feat - Arcane Preparation (CompArc) Human-Heighten Spell
2. Sorc2
3. Sorc3- Smiting Spell
4. Sorc4
5. Sorc5
6. Sorc6. -Combat Casting (for Abj. Champ)
7. Fighter1- Mage Slayer(CompArc)
8. Eldritch Knight 1.- Blind Fight (Grants the +5 BaB needed for Ab. Champ)
9. Abjurant Champion 1.-Pierce Magical Concealment (CompArc)
10. Abjurant Champion 2.-nothing
11. Abjurant Champion 3.
12. Abjurant Champion 4. Pierce Magical Protection.(CompArc)
13. Abjurant Champion 5
14. Eldritch Knight 2
15. Eldritch Knight 3- Vatic Gaze
16. Eldritch Knight 4
17. Eldritch Knight 5-
18. Eldritch Knight 6.-Practiced Spellcaster
19. Eldritch Knight 7
20. Eldritch Knight 8

The core to this build is that the combo melee/spellcasting classes are better for a Gish than the core classes, if you can get into them cheaply enough. And spell table progression kicks ass.

Only two of the above levels (Fighter 1 and EK 1) fail to advance your spellcasting progression.

Did I mention you can cast dispel magic as a swift action? :)

If you really want to push dispelling/counterspelling, Archmage could be another idea. It does cost 3 feats to get in, but if you burn 1 7th and 2 5th level spells/day you get +2 caster level and your counterspells turn back on the caster (sweet) with 3 archmage levels.

The +2 caster level saves 1 feat -- so it is a net loss of 2 feats, 2 5th level slots, 1 7th level slot, +1 BaB (assuming fractional BaB), 3 HP, and 15 skill points for Knowledge(arcana).

You gain "countered spells hit the caster of the spell", +1 DC on two different schools of spells, skill focus (spellcraft).

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-02-28, 07:07 PM
Even better:

a) Pal2/Sorc4/SpellSword1/AbChamp5/EK8

As Yakk's build, with a slightly different focus. This build give you casting stat to all saves, and the ability to ignore 10% ASF (so you don't have to bother with Twilight on your Mithral Chain Shirt).

b) Fighter2/Wiz4/Spellsword1/Abchamp5/EK8

This build actually casts 9th level spells. Doesn't have the saves,though. Also don't need Arcane Preparation, since Wizards naturally prepare all their spells.

TempusCCK
2008-02-28, 07:35 PM
You take those mage slayer feats and no matter how many practised spellcasters you take, even with an orange Ioun stone and what have you there's no way you're dispells are going to cut the mustard against a full caster let alone an optimized batman. Gish builds are useful and powerful against most opponents but full casters aren't some of them, the best bet on a mage-slayer PC is unfortunately anything with full casting both because they can match up to the grab bag of heinously overpowered tricks and that their CL is high enough to stand a chance of breaking thier first line of buffs.

Umm, this doesn't make sense to me. I just read the Counterspell description, if you use Dispel Magic as a Counterspell, you don't even need to make the Spellcraft check.

As well, the Practised Spellcaster feat means that for the purposes of Caster Level checks, this build is effectively a level 20 spellcaster, same as a 20th level Wizard, giving everyone the same chance of dispelling and the like.

The goal is not to be a one hitter quitter with dispels and melee combat. Smiting spell on a crossbow bolt may or may not cause him to loose his buffs(assuming the area dispel took care of windwall or Protection from Arrows), but I have 8 more times to try it and a teleport if I need get away quick.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, what book is the Abjurant Champion, if the build is so interesting as you say.

Starbuck_II
2008-02-28, 07:39 PM
You take those mage slayer feats and no matter how many practised spellcasters you take, even with an orange Ioun stone and what have you there's no way you're dispells are going to cut the mustard against a full caster let alone an optimized batman. Gish builds are useful and powerful against most opponents but full casters aren't some of them, the best bet on a mage-slayer PC is unfortunately anything with full casting both because they can match up to the grab bag of heinously overpowered tricks and that their CL is high enough to stand a chance of breaking thier first line of buffs.

Is that because each Mage slayer feats gives -4 caster penalty so having all 3 means -12?

TempusCCK
2008-02-28, 07:57 PM
Huh, that's right. Guess I should have read them all the way through. Then again, it's been a while since I've really read the book.

That's just asinine, really, you think you have an interesting way to create an anti-caster, but sure enough, an unnecessary "balancing" factor always has to muck it up, because hell, we wouldn't want to make it easy for people to attack casters.

BAH! To the Homebrew this idea goes then, stupid WotC.

Yakk
2008-02-28, 08:29 PM
Take more practiced spellcaster.

3 practiced spellcaster counteracts your 3 mage slayer feats.

You have redundant feats. Get rid of them.

TempusCCK
2008-02-28, 09:55 PM
Yeah, you can only do that if you have three classes of Spellcasting.

No go, just have to cancel them out and count on the fact that I have so many dispels to use to get rid of Miss Chance. Ray of Anti-Magic is a touch attack that doesn't allow a save anyway.

Person_Man
2008-02-28, 10:31 PM
Several options you may wish to consider:

Be a psionic character. For example, this combo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51489). The Mage Slayer feats have no effect on manifester levels.

Buy a Spell Storing weapon(s). Put Dispel Magic in them. Or just take the Smiting Spell feat (PHBII). To make your Dispel Magic even more powerful, be a Focused Specialist for abjuration (Complete Mage). Maybe even take Arcane Thesis for Greater Dispel Magic. This will let you use Smiting Spell (and Heighten Spell, and other metamagic) on it for free and/or a reduced cost.

Be any standard melee build with a massive damage combo, pounce, flight, and access to True Seeing or something similar. Win Initiative. Kill enemy caster on the first turn.

TempusCCK
2008-02-29, 11:34 AM
Yes, I've considered many of those options, however, with the psioniscist, wouldn't the Magic-Psionics transparency apply to manifester level for the purpose of the mage slayer feats? As in, your manifestor level should go down. Is there errata on this?

I did consider the Focused Specialist (Adjuration), Arcane Thesis is now an option since the Mage Slayer feats are not longer available. I may post a new version of this build, if I feel like it.

Also, mostly for flavor reasons, if there any way to get a sorceror into heavy armor without incurring spell failure chance?

Yakk
2008-02-29, 12:52 PM
Hmm. Well, for cheese, what order do +/- spellcaster levels happen in?

:)

Ie:
Apply -12 spellcaster level from mage hunter feats.
Apply Martial Arcanist (replaces caster level with your BaB).
Apply practiced spellcaster (boosts caster level by 4).

... As a bonus, Abj. Champion is full BaB (Complete Arcane?), so you have a BaB of +17 not +14! (I was reading a homebrew rebalance of the class, rather than the class).

18-12 = 6
6 replaced with 17 = 17
17+4 = 21, capped by 20.

This is... possibly on the cheesy side. :)

Person_Man
2008-02-29, 01:38 PM
Yes, I've considered many of those options, however, with the psioniscist, wouldn't the Magic-Psionics transparency apply to manifester level for the purpose of the mage slayer feats? As in, your manifestor level should go down. Is there errata on this?

No. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm) are the rules on transparency:


Combining Psionic And Magical Effects

The default rule for the interaction of psionics and magic is simple: Powers interact with spells and spells interact with powers in the same way a spell or normal spell-like ability interacts with another spell or spell-like ability. This is known as psionics-magic transparency.

Psionics-Magic Transparency

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.


Multiple Effects

Powers or psionic effects usually work as described no matter how many other powers, psionic effects, spells, or magical effects happen to be operating in the same area or on the same recipient. Except in special cases, a power does not affect the way another power or spell operates. Whenever a power has a specific effect on other powers or spells, the power description explains the effect (and vice versa for spells that affect powers). Several other general rules apply when powers, spells, magical effects, or psionic effects operate in the same place.


Stacking Effects

Powers that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type donít stack even if they come from different powers, or one from a power and one from a spell. You use whichever bonus gives you the better result.

Different Bonus Types

The bonuses or penalties from two different powers, or a power and a spell, stack if the effects are of different types. A bonus that isnít named (just a ď+2 bonusĒ rather than a ď+2 insight bonusĒ) stacks with any bonus.
Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths

In cases when two or more similar or identical effects are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies. If one power or spell is dispelled or its duration runs out, the other power or spell remains in effect (assuming its duration has not yet expired).

Same Effect with Differing Results

The same power or spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. The last effect in a series trumps the others. None of the previous spells or powers are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell or power in the series lasts.


One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant

Sometimes, a power can render another power irrelevant.


Multiple Mental Control Effects

Sometimes psionic or magical effects that establish mental control render one another irrelevant. Mental controls that donít remove the recipientís ability to act usually do not interfere with one another, though one may modify another. If a creature is under the control of two or more creatures, it tends to obey each to the best of its ability, and to the extent of the control each effect allows. If the controlled creature receives conflicting orders simultaneously, the competing controllers must make opposed Charisma checks to determine which one the creature obeys.
Powers and Spells with Opposite Effects

Powers and spells with opposite effects apply normally, with all bonuses, penalties, or changes accruing in the order that they apply. Some powers and spells negate or counter each other. This is a special effect that is noted in a powerís or spellís description.
Instantaneous Effects

Two or more magical or psionic effects with instantaneous durations work cumulatively when they affect the same object, place, or creature.

You'll notice it says nothing about feats, manifester levels, or caster levels. As far as I can tell, this was done on purpose. Otherwise a psionic character could take metamagic feats, or go into a prestige class that progressed caster levels, or vice verses.

Also, the Expanded Psionics Handbook was published in April of 2004, and Complete Arcane was published well after it in Nov 2004. Complete Arcane makes no mention of it effecting psionics. Practiced Spellcaster doesn't affect manifester levels. (In fact, they published the Practiced Manifester in Complete Psionics a year and a half later). Since then there hasn't been an errata. And the Mage Slayer entry in the FAQ only clarifies that Mage Slayer applies to both divine and arcane caster levels, making no mention of manifester levels.

Having said that, clearly if you build something too powerful for the group you're playing in, the DM will step in with a reasonable house rule of some type.



Also, mostly for flavor reasons, if there any way to get a sorceror into heavy armor without incurring spell failure chance?

Yes. Use the Battle Sorcerer (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#battle-sorcerer) variant. Take the Battle Caster feat from Complete Arcane. Buy Mithral heavy armor (which counts as medium armor). However, I would not suggest doing so. You lose some of your spells known and spells per day to do so, and at high levels you can just use the dozens of abjuration buffs, which are superior to armor (and sometimes don't stack with it).

TempusCCK
2008-02-29, 04:07 PM
As I was pondering this problem working out today I thought of the Bard. The Bard has many spells per day and the ability to ignore spell failure chance in light armor. This may just be an option if I take him into Sublime Chord, which I believe gives up to 9th level spells, correct?

what book can I find that in?

Also, Yak, that may just be an idea, where is Martial Arcanist found?

Yakk
2008-02-29, 06:42 PM
Martial Anarchist is a power of the Abj. Champion.

As noted, my interpretation is pure cheese. Ie, don't try to pull it past a DM.

namo
2008-03-01, 04:31 AM
The problem with Mage Slayer and Psionics is that psionics are never taken into account when WotC publishes new (non-settings) books. If your DM rules th epenalty doesn't apply to Manfiester Level, good for you.

Other useful ingredients :
- reach. Without it the mage just 5'-steps and casts.
- possibly Combat Reflexes and Standstill. See the Lockdown build on the WotC boards. It's feat-intensive but can be worth it.

I would only take 1 or 2 feats in the MS line : -12 to Caster Level is just too crippling.

TempusCCK
2008-03-01, 11:27 AM
Here's the issue, I can only take a Mage Salyer if I want this build to be of any use, it has to have full CL for dispelling, that's it's purpose. I need to rethink this thing almost entirely.