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Bayar
2008-03-06, 10:40 AM
Well, most of you guys know this already. But here is the scientific proof:

Cat kills commoner (http://dawnhorn.8.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=1769#1769).

Iku Rex
2008-03-06, 11:21 AM
Obligatory:

http://i30.tinypic.com/121r7mp.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/2je9the.jpg

By the way, that battle seems to disregard the cat's 0' reach. It has to enter the commoner's square to attack, drawing an AoO every time.

JBento
2008-03-06, 11:22 AM
There's at least two errors in that. Allow me to pick nits:

Round 1: If the cat attempts to Hide (a move action) he can't also double move.

Round 3: The cat is tiny, and has therefore a reach of 0ft. It has to move into the Commoner's space to attack, adnt herefore provokes an AoO.

Mr. Friendly
2008-03-06, 11:29 AM
There's at least two errors in that. Allow me to pick nits:

Round 1: If the cat attempts to Hide (a move action) he can't also double move.

Round 3: The cat is tiny, and has therefore a reach of 0ft. It has to move into the Commoner's space to attack, adnt herefore provokes an AoO.

Are commoners even proficient in weapons? (Simple I would guess), is the Commoner armed though? Does he have his weapon drawn? If not, then the Commoner himself provokes an AoO for making an unarmed attack. :smalltongue:

Thog helping.

JBento
2008-03-06, 11:31 AM
It's stated in the link: the Commoner gets one Simple Weapon porficiency (he took club) and the weapon was drawn. On a side note, it's hardly scientific evidence. A sample of one isn't exactly representative. It'd be more convincing if he used average rolls (e.g., every d20 roll is a 10-11)

Frosty
2008-03-06, 11:42 AM
Commoners are proficient with one simple weapon. As the Commoner provoking with an unarmed strike, that'd be true except for the fact that the cat has no reach, and hence can't even make an AoO on the Commoner even as the Commoner provokes. Or am I wrong about not being able to perform an AoO if the enemy is farther away than your reach?

Ganurath
2008-03-06, 11:43 AM
Houserule it, problem solved.

tyckspoon
2008-03-06, 11:43 AM
be more convincing if he used average rolls (e.g., every d20 roll is a 10-11)

That gets the commoner killed every time. The cat is AC 14 (high Dex, size bonus), and so cannot be hit by an average roll from the commoner, who has no stat bonuses and no BAB bonus. The cat attacks at +4 with its claws, and will hit the AC 10 (no armor, no stat bonus) Commoner with every claw.

Mr. Friendly
2008-03-06, 11:56 AM
Ok, I can't read the link, but I will give this a go...

Human Commoner - 4 HP; since he is a human and knows to optimize for a vs. Cat challenge he takes Combat Reflexes for his feat and wields a club 2 handed. He also takes toughness for his 1st level feat, so he has 7hp and without armor, an AC of 10. His stats are all 10 or 11.

vs.

Housecat - 2hp, 14AC, 2 claws and a bite at +4 and -1, respectively. He is Hiding in tall grass, waiting to Ambush the Commoner.

The Cat takes 10 on it's Hide (giving it a total of 30) and we will assume the commoner maxs out Spot and has 4 AND he rolls a 20, giving him 24, so he has no idea the Cat is there.

The Cat pops out, the Commoner gets an AoO thanks to Combat Reflexes and needs 12s or better to hit, or never hits if we just use 10s and 11s for the roll.

By all rights, the cat *should* have Pounce, as this is a hallmark of the "cat" subtype as much as Trip is part of the "dog" subtype.

Anyway, the cat can get (1) attack, it will have partial charged as its a surprise round and will, using 10s and 11s always hit; worst case scenario, he needs a 4 to hit.

The next full combat round gets even worse. The cat will go first using 10s and 11s or will have a mathmatical advantage in a die roll. Even if the Commoner goes first, he still cannot hit or has less than a 50% chance to anyway. The cat however now gets 4 attacks on the commoner and pretty much auto kills him.

Now here it could be interesting though, if the commoner has say, a reach weapon, he could run away and set for a charge. But he will still never hit the cat.

You would have to optimize the commoner so much it fully exits the realm of reality.

Of course it is outside the realm of reality anyway that a housecat would murder you.

Everyone knows they just use Charm Person as an at-will SLA anyway.

JBento
2008-03-06, 12:00 PM
>_>
<_<
Pssst.
<_<
>_>
If your Dexterity is 11, you can't take Combat Reflexes.

*Throws the just-picked nit away*

Indon
2008-03-06, 12:01 PM
To channel the spirit of Morbo...

CATS DO NOT BEHAVE THAT WAY!

Rutee
2008-03-06, 12:04 PM
Ok, I can't read the link, but I will give this a go...

Human Commoner - 4 HP; since he is a human and knows to optimize for a vs. Cat challenge he takes Combat Reflexes for his feat and wields a club 2 handed. He also takes toughness for his 1st level feat, so he has 7hp and without armor, an AC of 10. His stats are all 10 or 11.

He has 2 HP if he's an NPC, 5 with Toughness.

And if the Human can choose a feat, so can the kitty :D

EvilElitest
2008-03-06, 12:15 PM
Makes you wonder why commoners can still live in FR, forget the monsters, the damn cats
from
EE

Mr. Friendly
2008-03-06, 12:16 PM
He has 2 HP if he's an NPC, 5 with Toughness.

And if the Human can choose a feat, so can the kitty :D

The kitty already chose a feat, in it's stat block, it chose Stealthy.

Fine, I am house ruling it that the Commoner Class only can take Combat Reflexes and ignore the requirement. So nyahh!

Anyway... I just dinnae see how the Commoner can really win. The math just favors the cat too heavily.

Rutee
2008-03-06, 12:19 PM
The kitty already chose a feat, in it's stat block, it chose Stealthy.

Fine, I am house ruling it that the Commoner Class only can take Combat Reflexes and ignore the requirement. So nyahh!

Anyway... I just dinnae see how the Commoner can really win. The math just favors the cat too heavily.

Well, the Commoner /can/ win. He /probably/ won't though, yesh.

RTGoodman
2008-03-06, 12:22 PM
To channel the spirit of Morbo...

CATS DO NOT BEHAVE THAT WAY!

I disagree. My mom's cat is what we call "passing-aggressive" - that is, if you happen to pass by her while she's hiding, she'll swipe at you and then run away.

Anyway, since a Commoner doesn't have a way to make AoOs while flat-footed (Combat Reflexes requires Dex 13), the cat can run into the Commoner's square and attack safely on the first round. And then the cat wins initiative (most likel, and definitely if you assume average rolls) and full attacks the Commoner to death.

It'd be worse if cats had Pounce, but eventually the cat takes out the Commoner with barely a scratch if anything.

Indon
2008-03-06, 12:28 PM
I disagree. My mom's cat is what we call "passing-aggressive" - that is, if you happen to pass by her while she's hiding, she'll swipe at you and then run away.

In D&D terms, that's a withdrawal action - the cat is attempting to retreat in a way that doesn't have you just open up on it. Sadly, by D&D rules it doesn't work out for the cat - the cat might not provoke moving out of the commoner's space, but it provokes when trying to move out of the commoner's reach. So unsurprisingly, a cat is insufficiently threatening to even be able to run away without risk.

KoDT69
2008-03-06, 12:41 PM
My cat kicks my step-son's butt all the time. I'd put my money on the cat for sure :smallwink:

Tengu
2008-03-06, 12:49 PM
Makes you wonder why commoners can still live in FR, forget the monsters, the damn cats
from
EE

Forget about cats, with 2 HP you can die from a cold, a pine cone falling on your head or by falling from a fence you were sitting on.

Indon
2008-03-06, 12:53 PM
Forget about cats, with 2 HP you can die from a cold, a pine cone falling on your head or by falling from a fence you were sitting on.

Firstly, a cold would deal Con damage (which would only knock you into a coma if you took 4 points of it).

A pine cone would only deal 1 damage, if it dealt damage at all.

People fall from short distances (under 10 feet, the minimum threshold required in D&D to take fall damage) in real life and sustain life-threatening injuries.

Secondly, "You forgot to wear goggles during autumn, didn't you?"

Oslecamo
2008-03-06, 01:10 PM
Cats don't have reach, so they don't threaten squares, so they don't make Aoo for the enemy moving.

Thus the commoner can every round bash and retreat, stoping the cat from full attacking. And cats can't hide if they don't have cover.

Actually, real life cats are quite dangerous if you provoke them. Those claws are sharp, and a cat pointing to the neck can rip an arteria and make you bleed to death. They're also quite agile.

But they normally won't kill you, because they see us as their slaves who feed them and slaves are hard to get.

So sometimes they give us a swipe or bite when we misbehave, but most of the time they'll let us live.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-06, 01:41 PM
Makes you wonder why commoners can still live in FR, forget the monsters, the damn cats
from
EE

It's because they all are at least 15th level.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-06, 03:43 PM
The commoner tends to win if he grapples, because he gets a huge bonus over the cat. Of course the Commoner probably can't understand the grapple rules.

In real life, of course, cats don't go berzerk and try to kill you. Then again, that's because in real life they aren't massively more dangerous than an adult human being.

ColdBrew
2008-03-06, 04:45 PM
Cats don't have reach, so they don't threaten squares, so they don't make Aoo for the enemy moving.

They threaten their own squares, so they can still rape an unarmed commoner.

Newtkeeper
2008-03-06, 06:43 PM
It's because they all are at least 15th level.

No, don't be silly. By that point, they usually have levels in the Underwater Basketweaver PrC.

Subotei
2008-03-06, 07:02 PM
Lets just say someone had a bad day when they decided to stat up a house cat. A simple bad scratch or bite wouldn't even rate as 0.1 HP worth of damage. One aint ever going to kill you unless its got some nasty infection under its claws. No significant challenge to any healthy adult human. Unlike dogs. Or horses.

rankrath
2008-03-06, 07:09 PM
no, the cat looses as follows;

cat moves into commoners square, provoking AOO.

Commoner used AOO to grapple cat, winning automaticly due to size difference.

Commoner has cat pinned, and preforms Coup de' grace on the cat.

Which is really what would happen if a cat and a human fought to the death. The human simply picks up the cat and bashes it into the wall.

Zincorium
2008-03-06, 07:09 PM
Lets just say someone had a bad day when they decided to stat up a house cat. A simple bad scratch or bite wouldn't even rate as 0.1 HP worth of damage. One aint ever going to kill you unless its got some nasty infection under its claws. No significant challenge to any healthy adult human. Unlike dogs. Or horses.

The problem is, rather, that all attacks no matter how high the penalties are stacked always do a minimum of 1 damage. And that cats are given a die range for damage at all (a human's teeth are pretty close to as dangerous as a cat's claws, which is to say not particularly).

EvilElitest
2008-03-06, 07:16 PM
Forget about cats, with 2 HP you can die from a cold, a pine cone falling on your head or by falling from a fence you were sitting on.

Heh, ah commoners, is there anything you can't make funny
from
EE

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-06, 07:19 PM
no, the cat looses as follows;

cat moves into commoners square, provoking AOO.

Commoner used AOO to grapple cat, winning automaticly due to size difference.

Commoner has cat pinned, and preforms Coup de' grace on the cat.

Which is really what would happen if a cat and a human fought to the death. The human simply picks up the cat and bashes it into the wall.Commoner misses AoO. He has no AB and the cat has 14 AC. The cat may even be Fighting Defensively for 16 AC.

The cat only needs a roll of 6 to hit and has a full attack that will kill in a round.

Plus, doesn't the fact that we are even having this discussion mean that there's a problem in the rules? Picture sitting down in your chair on a cat and dying because it started in your square. That shouldn't happen, but WotC is run by Gamists and the rules trump all.

Frosty
2008-03-06, 07:20 PM
no, the cat looses as follows;

cat moves into commoners square, provoking AOO.

Commoner used AOO to grapple cat, winning automaticly due to size difference.

Commoner has cat pinned, and preforms Coup de' grace on the cat.

Which is really what would happen if a cat and a human fought to the death. The human simply picks up the cat and bashes it into the wall.

Wouldn't the commoner provoke an AoO from the cat unless he has IUS? Or is can the cat not make an AoO in this case because the cat has 0ft reach?

Draz74
2008-03-06, 08:09 PM
Combat Reflexes has no Dex requirement, by the way, nor any other prereqs. A commoner can certainly take it at Level 1.

I think the grapple thing does indeed tip the balance in the probable favor of the commoner. Though there's a significant chance that the cat could win.

Smiley_
2008-03-06, 08:13 PM
Except that natural weapons can be used in a grapple. The hapless commoner would initiate a grapple with the cat and have to proceed to pin it before the cat would be helpless.

Cat, as a tiny creature, gets a bonus to attack and the commoner is denyed any dexterity bonus while in the grapple. Also, there's that 1 damage minimum rule to take into account, and the cat will probably have won initiative and gotten a scratch or two, or none, in.

As for the AoO issue, the unarmed strike would move the commoners arm within reach of the cat. Cats are famous for making arms bleed quite a bit.

So, the way I see it is cat moves into threatened area of commoner.

Commoner takes a swing for the AoO

Cat gets it's own AoO in response to an untrained unarmed strike

Cat scratchess 2 times for AoO

Commoner swings once for AoO

Cat scratches another 2 times for normal attack

Cat:4
Commoner:1

RandomLunatic
2008-03-06, 10:58 PM
In these examples, the commoner almost invariably dies because his tactics suck. He stands and tries to exchange his single attack for the cat's full attack, playing to all the cat's strengths and none of its weaknesses. This is the sort of thing tech support people euphemistically refer to as 'user error', as they would lose their jobs if they came right out and called it the blinding idiocy it is.

Now, if the commoner wants to live, he should withdraw from the cat, moving at least 35' away. This will force the cat to charge if it wants to continue the fight, which has the dual effect of dropping its AC while reducing it to a single attack per round. Granted, that single attack is almost certain to hit (4 or better), but this still drops Fluffy's ADR from 2.0 to .85-a pretty hefty decrease. Assumming the commoner has Toughess, it will take Fluffy six rounds to kill him.

Meanwhile, since the cat provokes an AOO on its reduced AC, the commoner's damage actually increases-assuming a D8 weapon, like the ever-popular Morningstar, from 1.575 to 2.025-statistically, Fluffy dies in one round.

Commoners interested in more sophisticated tactics could instead use their AOOs to try to grapple Fluffy (and no, he will not provoke an AOO, as the cat will not threaten him)-this will not improve his odds to hit any, but if he hits, the grapple is almost certain to go to him, and average damage will stagger the cat (if commoner instead has IUS, average damage will kill the cat). The cat's attack will be aborted, and on the next round the commoner can again grapple the thing. Assuming the cat manages to survive (by the commoner rolling 1 on his damage both times, and assuming the damage is non-lethal), it can either try to attack with a single natural weapon, dealing .55 ADR, or it can try to escape artist its way out-its Dex bonus gives it favorable odds, but it is hardly garunteed. If it does suceed, the commoner will just go back to the withdrawl routine above.

In truth, grappling is a bit of a waste, as a weapon hit will put the cat out of the fight on anything but a 1, but it provides an extra blanket of security in case of that one.

horseboy
2008-03-07, 12:47 AM
Plus, doesn't the fact that we are even having this discussion mean that there's a problem in the rules? Picture sitting down in your chair on a cat and dying because it started in your square. That shouldn't happen, but WotC is run by Gamists and the rules trump all.
Clearly you have not lived in terror of the Tiny creature Crit chart. :smalleek:

2008-03-07, 12:53 AM
So... It's pretty clear that cats could kill a human. So... I'm no expert on cat gestation periods, but I've seen a 1 year old cat and it looks full grown to me. A human takes about 15 years to be combat worthy from birth. Thus you could make an army of cats, produced en mass and faster than any human army could. Imagine the evilgasmic possiblities if you go strictly RAW...

Chronos
2008-03-07, 01:52 AM
Why do people always act surprised that a housecat poses a credible threat to a first-level commoner? That's the way it works in our world, too. Sure, cats don't usually try to kill humans. Usually. But I've seen the results of a cat attack, and it's not pretty.

Now, in both our world and in D&D, the odds favor the human, due to our size advantage, but even so, the human is going to get badly scratched up.

Rutee
2008-03-07, 01:59 AM
No, the DnD odds favor the cat. That's the point.

And a cat in no way can disable a human in 6 seconds (A combat round).

Talic
2008-03-07, 03:06 AM
Here's how it works, assuming nobody's flat footed.

Cat hides in rafters.

Commoner doesn't see it.

Cat hides in rafters.

Commoner goes to make a sandwich.

Cat hides in rafters.

Commoner watches the field.

Cat hides in rafters.

Commoner goes into the basement to get some jam.

Cat jumps down, bumps door, closing it.

Commoner remembers he left key upstairs.

Commoner starves to death, after eating all the jam.

Now that's something a cat would do.

Demented
2008-03-07, 03:12 AM
...Owned by a self-locking heavy-duty basement door.
How do you save yourself?
Store an axe in your basement.

dyslexicfaser
2008-03-07, 03:20 AM
And a cat in no way can disable a human in 6 seconds (A combat round).
I'm assuming you're speaking of 'in real life', which is not necessarily the case. My sister - a fully grown, athletic human being - very nearly had an eye gouged out while mock-tussling with her housecat. This, as you can imagine, is rather disabling. If the cat had pressed the attack, it might have emerged slain her, levelling up in the process.

She needed stitches and generally looked like an DV abuse victim for weeks (which provided her boyfriend with lots of time to make domestic violence jokes in the ER. He almost got arrested.).

Rutee
2008-03-07, 03:32 AM
How's a cat going to gouge your eye out if you're not deliberately putting yourself in a position where it has the capability to? As you said, your sister was mock tussling; Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the concept, but it seems it only got that close because your sister allowed it to for the sake of the game.

2008-03-07, 03:54 AM
assuming the commoner is armed (at least a club), has the normal people array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8) and is human he is at an advantage, even before factoring in his 2 feats.

Rutee
2008-03-07, 04:16 AM
Except he has 10s/11s. Just like the kitty. We can probably assume Skill Focus: Profession of Choice as one of those feats to boot, or he will defeat the kitty only to starve to death because his Profession Checks suck.

Khanderas
2008-03-07, 04:33 AM
My cat kicks my step-son's butt all the time. I'd put my money on the cat for sure :smallwink:
Normally, any human can, if so inclined, pimpslap the cat to the other side of the room. Your step-son might need to hit the gym (or sell the cat for medical research, Im suggesting steriod department).

I kid :smallsmile:

Irreverent Fool
2008-03-07, 05:16 AM
Cats generally enter into a panicked state when a human attacks them.

JBento
2008-03-07, 05:39 AM
Unfortunately, a cat's panicked state often involves hissing from a distance, or, if close enough, clawing the hell out of anyhting moving towards it...

Oslecamo
2008-03-07, 05:53 AM
Except he has 10s/11s. Just like the kitty. We can probably assume Skill Focus: Profession of Choice as one of those feats to boot, or he will defeat the kitty only to starve to death because his Profession Checks suck.

If he defeats the kitty, the other peoples in the village will praise him as a great hero and offer him food and roof in trade of protecting the village from further kitty attacks.

And actually, I now remember one book when the main hero gets herself transformed into a cat, a completely regular cat, and still manages to kill one of he bad guys by biting him in the neck and then retreating into the woods.

Blanks
2008-03-07, 07:15 AM
why does people work with "only rolling 10 and 11" - thats a very weird way to do it?

example:
two humans attack each other - for simplicity they are identical:
BAB+0, dam 1d6+0, ac 12. HP 10

Only 10s and 11s:
The fight never ends.

damage according to percentile hit chance:
Human1 attacks and deals 3,5 damage with 40% chance. That is, in the first round he deals 1.4 damage.

Human2 attacks and also deals 1.4 damage.

Eventually H1 wins (because he started).

Isn't method 2 clearly superior?

JBento
2008-03-07, 07:22 AM
Ponit, set, and game.

Could you do the same for Kitty the Terrible vs. Joe the Commoner, please?

Blanks
2008-03-08, 03:10 AM
Ponit, set, and game.

Could you do the same for Kitty the Terrible vs. Joe the Commoner, please?

Are you talking to me, or were you ninjaed?
Because im afraid i really can't :smallredface:
I keep forgetting all the AoO and feats and stuff.

Lets try it "mathematical and simple" anyway:

So the cat is easy, its on page 195 of my 3.0 monsters manual.
The commoner is level 0, with his human feat spent on skill focus (unimportant) to get food on his table. For simplicity he has 10 in all stats. Because i want to keep it simple he gets a club, so i dont have to mess with unarmed stuff. AC 10, HP 2,5

initiative is rolled and there is a 10% chance that the cat goes first. We let him start and see wether it matters later.

Cat attacks:
Claw1 needs 6 to hit AC 10 which is 70% hitchance, doing 1 damage=0,7dam
Claw2 is the same
Bite needs 11 to hit which is a 45% hit chance, doing 1 damage=0,45
total damage:
1,85
Commoner is hurt but not dead.

Commoner attacks:
He needs a 14 to hit the cat which is 30% hit chance, doing 3,5 damage=1,05dam

Cat is alive.

Next round
Cat kills commoner and still has enough hitpoints (2,5-1,05=1,45) to survive another attack from the commoner.

It doesn't matter who goes first, Joe is a goner.

Unless he brings armor or starts using grapple or something clever.

I think the result can be left at this:
A man with a baseball bat cannot kill a housecat in DnD.

Danzaver
2008-03-08, 03:30 AM
It reminds me of how a big tough 5th level fighter in my game was killed by a badger... no ****.

Miles Invictus
2008-03-08, 03:40 AM
How's a cat going to gouge your eye out if you're not deliberately putting yourself in a position where it has the capability to?

Obviously, you've never had a frightened cat climb you like a tree. Kitty was fast.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-08, 07:45 AM
I'm assuming you're speaking of 'in real life', which is not necessarily the case. My sister - a fully grown, athletic human being - very nearly had an eye gouged out while mock-tussling with her housecat. This, as you can imagine, is rather disabling. If the cat had pressed the attack, it might have emerged slain her, levelling up in the process.

She needed stitches and generally looked like an DV abuse victim for weeks (which provided her boyfriend with lots of time to make domestic violence jokes in the ER. He almost got arrested.).

Problem is, that all that is stuff you recover from, and I'd solidly guess that part of the reason the cat did so much damage was because your sister didn't want to hurt it.

What we're talking about here, though, is something very different, we're talking about putting a man who likes to kill cats in a fight to the death with a furry tabby. The Commoner can win if he grapples, but the odds aren't great, and the AoO situation is ambiguous.

Wardog
2008-03-08, 08:13 AM
I did have a rather disturbing encounter with a cat recently IRL.

There are quite a few cats living in my street, that are all very friendly, and which I'm on pretty good terms with. (One in particular will normally cross the street to greet me when I come home, and make big eyes at me in an attempt to make me let it into my home). There are also a few cats that often hang around the grounds of my workplace, although I don't know them that well.

Now, a few weeks ago at work, I was sitting outside eating my lunch, when another cat (one I hadn't seen before) wandered along and started sunning itself on a bench. After finishing my sandwiches, I went over to see it.

It seemed quite friendly, so I started stroking it.
The cat purred contentedly.

I stroked it some more. The cat purred, and rubbed against my leg.

I stroked it some more. The cat bared its claws, showed its fangs, and went "HHTHSSARRRGGGTHHHSSS!!!!!"

I backed away in surprise.

The cat calmed down, then ambled towards me, going:
"Purr. Purr. HHTHSSARRRGGGTHHHSSS!!!!!"

I decided it was best to leave Psycho Cat well alone.

Fortunately no actual combat took place, and if it had, I think I'd be better represent as having at least one level of Monk, so a fight should be more in my favour. (Unless Psycho Cat had also leveled up :) )

bugsysservant
2008-03-08, 01:26 PM
Hm, can non-PCs take flaws? Because that could substantially boost Fluffy's killing power. Even if all he did was take toughness with his three feats, that would leave him with 11 hp. Or if he sunk two of his feats into aberrant blood and aberrant reach he could now have five hit points, a nasty full attack, and now he doesn't need to provoke an AoO to hit a character. Still, not great, but considering you can send four of these monsters against each of your first level party they are SERIOUSLY SCREWED.

Actually, a mob of twelve aberrant freak cats probably won't take down that damned crab, but they can still do better than most groups of PCs, taking down about half his health by my calculations. Of course, since that damned crab doesn't have combat reflexes, it might be better to drop the two aberrant blood feats, at least for some. One cat will die entering his space, but then four more can do so freely, and be more optimized to kill once they have entered. I forget though, does the limit on creatures apply to grappling? Probably not since you can have two people in the same square, but is there a limit to how many you can have? If not, then it would be a very effective solution to drop the aberrant feats, pick up improved initiative, and then have a dozen cats mob the poor crab.

Hmmm, I think I'll work on this. That damned crab is going down for nastiest CR 3 encounter.

GoC
2008-03-08, 08:31 PM
I've heard of several people in my neighborhood who killed cats and even talked to one. It's very easy, just one kick or punch will seriously screw the poor cat.