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View Full Version : Bladesman (PRC) [Massivley Overhauled, PEACH]



AKA_Bait
2008-03-10, 07:57 PM
This is for a homebrew setting of mine. I wanted to call this class the duelist... but WotC beat me to the name. Thoughts on balance?


The Bladesman

The two men circled each other warily. Their blades cautiously flicking in all directions never touching flesh. Rimel, the man in blue, suddenly advanced; rapier a blur of steel and gold but the other man was faster. Although the strike was unseen, the sudden bloom of scarlet at poor Rimel's throat made it all too obvious who had prevailed.


Bladesman
{table="Head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+1|+1|+2|+0|Final Strike, Shatter Defense +2

2nd|+2|+1|+3|+0|Precise Strike 1d6

3rd|+3|+2|+3|+1|Shatter Defense +4, Swift Feint

4th|+4|+2|+4|+1|Blademinded

5th|+5|+3|+4|+1|Shatter Defense +6, Precise Strike 2d6

6th|+6|+3|+5|+2|Quick Shatter

7th|+7|+3|+5|+2|Invisible Strike, Shatter Defense +8

8th|+8|+4|+6|+2|Precise Strike 3d6, Staggering Feint

9th|+9|+4|+6|+3|Shatter Defense +10, Bladesmile

10th|+10|+5|+7|+3|Instant Shatter

[/table]

Prerequisites:
BAB +5
Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Improved Feint
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d10

Class Skills:
Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex)

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Intelligence modifier

Shatter Defense: By testing the defenses of your opponent, you learn their weaknesses. If your successfully feint against the object of your study for three consecutive rounds then on the fourth round you gain a +2 insight bonus to your next attack against that opponent. This bonus increases by an additional +2 at every odd level thereafter.

Final Strike: Whenever you receive the bonus from your Shatter Defense class feature and your opponent is denied their dexterity bonus to AC you my attempt a Final Strike. A final strike that hits has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (your choice). If the victim of such final strike fails a Reflex save (DC 10 + Bladesman Level + Intelligence Modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per your level of the bladesman class. If the target passes the saving throw the final strike deals damage normally.

Precise Strike: As the Duelist Class feature.

Blademinded: Your familiarity with combat allows you to instantly identify some types of attacks and counter or dodge them. You gain a bonus to AC equal to your Intelligence modifier. This bonus does not stack with ability score based to AC granted by any other class. It does stack with ability score based bonuses granted by this class. Otherwise it functions exactly as a the Monk class feature except that it applies to Intelligence.

Swift Feint: You can now feint as a swift action.

Staggering Feint: Your feints can throw an opponent so off balance they cannot keep up with your next several attacks. An opponent who you successfully feint is treated as flatfooted against you until the beginning of the your next turn.

Quick Shatter: You become quicker at identifying your opponents weaknesses. At 6th level a bladesman only needs to successfully feint an opponent for 2 consecutive rounds before shattering their defense on the third.

Invisible Strike: Your final strikes are so quick as to be almost impossible to see. The DC of your final strikes increases by an amount equal to one half your Dexterity modifier (rounding down).

Bladesmile: Your presence and deceptive movements make it difficult for your opponents to figure out where you will be moving next. You gain a bonus to AC equal to your Charisma modifier. This bonus does not stack with ability score based to AC granted by any other class. It does stack with ability score based bonuses granted by this class. Otherwise, this bonus functions exactly as a the Monk class feature except that it applies to Charisma.

Instant Shatter: At 10th level a bladesman only needs to successfully feint an opponent for one round before shattering their defense on the next round.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-03-10, 08:24 PM
I like the feel of the class. It does what you seem to have set out to do. However, the Final Strike ability seems a bit off to me. It seems to easy to do, and to easy to avoid. I would put some limit on how many times a day you can do it, or, barring that, to get the same feel, a 5 round recharge time. In return, I would up the DC a bit.

By the time a character gets this, she's level 6. For a CR 6 creature, DC 13, while not being a complete pushover, is rather easy to obtain. Upping it to DC 15, for example, would make it challenging to a CR 6 monster.

Take a look at the DC ups. DC 25 for CR 16. That seems around right, though maybe a bit higher, up to DC 27. In conclusion, I think that all the DC's for that ability should be upped by two.

AKA_Bait
2008-03-10, 08:45 PM
I like the feel of the class. It does what you seem to have set out to do. However, the Final Strike ability seems a bit off to me. It seems to easy to do, and to easy to avoid. I would put some limit on how many times a day you can do it, or, barring that, to get the same feel, a 5 round recharge time. In return, I would up the DC a bit.

By the time a character gets this, she's level 6. For a CR 6 creature, DC 13, while not being a complete pushover, is rather easy to obtain. Upping it to DC 15, for example, would make it challenging to a CR 6 monster.

Take a look at the DC ups. DC 25 for CR 16. That seems around right, though maybe a bit higher, up to DC 27. In conclusion, I think that all the DC's for that ability should be upped by two.

I'm amicable to upping the DC a bit. I didn't want to make it much higher lest it be overpowered and I tend to err on the side of nerfing. The reason I made it a Ref save was because I wanted it to be somewhat easy for a nimble character/monster to avoid but hard for a big smashy character/monster to avoid. One of my challenges with this class was balancing it against itself. I wanted a class that that you could have a long cinematic swordfight in game with. The kind that ends when someone 'stumbles' (fails their ref save).

The ability already has a once every 3 round recharge during which you must be in Melee the whole time and can't full attack. I think that's a big enough drawback.

Any other thoughts?

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-03-10, 09:26 PM
Ok, I can accept that reasoning.

For the ability Shatter Defense, how long does the bonus last?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-03-11, 12:45 AM
With regards to Final Strike: Standard save DC for PrC abilities is (10 + Class level + Relevant Ability Modifier).

Given the fact that it's a study, I'd say it should be (10 + Class level + Int modifier).

Also, I see no reason to disallow Full Attacks. Just make studying a swift action each round, and maybe have studying apply a -2 penalty to attack rolls on a full-round attack. It's a melee fighter...let it do what it does best.

Finally, you might want to limit Final Strike a little bit, since at level 10 your opponent has to make a save or die EVERY OTHER ROUND. A bit much, in my opinion.

Xefas
2008-03-11, 01:08 AM
Regardless of balance, which I'm sure others will handle adequately, I'd like to mention the item of "fun".

This class is more of a pigeonholed one-trick pony than even the charging leap attack shock trooper power attack fighters out there. Exactly how long do you think it will take for a player to get bored of:

"Combat Starts"
"I study"
"I study"
"I study"
"I final strike"
"Combat is Over"

Or, worse yet, the opponent makes his save, and the Bladesman didn't actually get to do anything useful for the entire fight. While the Monk and Samurai full-attacked the minotaurs to death, and the Healer was busy running around trying to keep everyone breathing, and the Warmage got to blow crap up, you poked a guy 3 times, accomplished nothing, and were layed low by the worst classes in the game. This is a worst case scenario obviously, but astoundingly likely to be a common occurrence, and the best case is exactly the same only you got to contribute slightly.

My suggestion would be either 1) add some Martial Maneuvers (Diamond Mind/Iron Heart?) for variety of action, or 2) if you don't like ToB, maybe set up some kind of duelist-style combo thing. You have a set of "Starter Moves" a set of "Advanced Moves" and then a set of "Finishers" that all have different effects depending upon the ones which proceeded them in the combo.

Just some thoughts.

AKA_Bait
2008-03-11, 08:24 AM
For the ability Shatter Defense, how long does the bonus last?

Just for the next attack.


With regards to Final Strike: Standard save DC for PrC abilities is (10 + Class level + Relevant Ability Modifier).

Given the fact that it's a study, I'd say it should be (10 + Class level + Int modifier).

I'm aware of that. I've never really understood why that is the standard though. It has always seemed to end up nerfing abilites like the assassians death strike. It's a consideration, but I also don't want to make the PrC too MAD.



Also, I see no reason to disallow Full Attacks. Just make studying a swift action each round, and maybe have studying apply a -2 penalty to attack rolls on a full-round attack. It's a melee fighter...let it do what it does best.

Well, part of the reason is to offset the power of Final Strike. I'd rather not have floating penalties.


Finally, you might want to limit Final Strike a little bit, since at level 10 your opponent has to make a save or die EVERY OTHER ROUND. A bit much, in my opinion.

You really think that by 16th level that's too much? If there are full spell casters in the party I'd expect that to be happening anyway.


This class is more of a pigeonholed one-trick pony than even the charging leap attack shock trooper power attack fighters out there.

Well, yeah. It's place within my setting is mainly for NPC's but I wanted it available for PC's if they so desired. It's specifically set up for a sword duel. It's not expected to be awesome with anything else.


Exactly how long do you think it will take for a player to get bored of:

"Combat Starts"
"I study"
"I study"
"I study"
"I final strike"
"Combat is Over"

Honestly, I don't really see the class working that way. I see it more like (partiularly after 4th level of the PrC):

Combat Starts
"I study Bob, Feint and Precise Strike"
"I study, tumble to flank Bob and Precise Strike"
"I study, and Precise Strike"
"I shatter defense, full attack using Final Strike and Precise Strike"

That seems no more or less boring than your standard Rogue in combat.


My suggestion would be either 1) add some Martial Maneuvers (Diamond Mind/Iron Heart?) for variety of action, or 2) if you don't like ToB, maybe set up some kind of duelist-style combo thing. You have a set of "Starter Moves" a set of "Advanced Moves" and then a set of "Finishers" that all have different effects depending upon the ones which proceeded them in the combo.

I'm not really all that familiar with the ToB options and prefer simpler mechanics than sets of moves as you progress through the class. I don't want to make it too complicated.

I think I will up the DC's though.

Ninjalitude
2008-03-11, 12:23 PM
I like the fact that they have a use for mental stats that separates them from the common flank-and-stab rouge but how would charisma help you parry a sword? I could see it now...

Fighter: Ha! that attack got right past your armor!
Bladesman: NOOOOOO I'm to charming to be wounded!
Fighter: well i guess i agree...
Bladesman: well you are the average meat shield who dump stated charisma, and you are about as charming as a dinged up trash can lid, so you can go ahead and die.*Stabs Face*
Fighter: Oh no my full plate prevents me from blocking your crazily overpowered one-hit-kill move....*gurgles blood and dies*

Smiley_
2008-03-11, 12:43 PM
The thing is, the AC is going to be insane once you add up the effects of magic items, buffs, and all that. Also, I think that the final strike DC may become difficult to overcome even for high level characters. The poor fulplate fighter has no chance to land a hit or survive the final strike attack.

Also, I would say that the improved uncanny dodge ability would negate the final strike ability for characters of similar level as it does with sneak attacks, making it marginally less overpowered.

My suggestions include deciding on one driving stat to boost AC, I would say intelligence.

Also, the DC could be something more along the lines of 10 + 1/2 bladesman level + int modifier for he final strike, which is usually how DC is handled for these abilities. Limiting uses a day would also help, seeing that the shattering strike ability is powerful alone.

Just thoughts

AugustNights
2008-03-11, 11:47 PM
This is wonderful.

I've always had a problem with the Duelist and the Swashbuckler not matching up PrC to Base-class very well, I mean Going from Swashbuckler to Duelist seems silly, where as going from Swash to Bladesman is a great idea.

I love the extra brain-based armor.
First you learn what sort of attacks to dodge.
Then you learn that some attacks are based more on body type and action.
Then you learn that things can be quite unpredictable, and thinking on one's feet is also needed.

Uhm, though perhaps something about only wearing light armor, or no armor... or is that implied in the mentioning of the monk-ability?

AKA_Bait
2008-03-12, 03:00 PM
Ok, taking suggestions more to heart I've made the following changes:

-Final Strike has DC (10 + Level + Int) with a bonus at 7th level to add Dex mod to the DC (Invisible Strike) and requires the opponent to be denied their dex bonus.

-Bladewizened has been removed.

-Shatter Defense requires sucessful consecutive bluff checks rather than rounds of study.

-Improved Feint has moved from a bonus to a prereq and replacd at 4th level with Superior Feint.

-Quick Shatter has been moved to 6th level.

Thoughts?

-

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-03-12, 03:13 PM
Much better. You may be pleased to hear that I am bookmarking this page.

Wait, darn, I'm at my grandparents house. Well, I'm emailing it to myself.

MorkaisChosen
2008-03-12, 03:24 PM
I like the concept, but I think this class can achieve insane unarmoured AC. Consider:

1-level dip to Monk (hurts BAB slightly, but gives plenty of skill points), followed by some stuff for 5 levels (Fighter, Swashbuckler, you get the idea), then some of this class, at which point we are adding Wis, Dex, Cha and Int to AC. If they're all 14 (easily attainable) that's an unarmoured, unequipped AC of 18, and it could well be more than that.

If we cut Dex out and consider the comparison of Wis+Int+Cha, again at 14 each- that's equivalent to a mundane suit of banded mail, without the speed penalty and check penalty. Enhancement bonuses can be made up with Bracers of Armour.

Might need some work there...

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-03-12, 03:28 PM
Much better, but I'm still worried about Final Strike.

Since Feinting renders them flat-footed until the next round, this means that, once again, every other strike at 10th level is a save-or-die, again with a higher-than-normal DC since Dex gets added to the picture as well.

I'd make Final Strike 1/encounter at 1st level, 2/encounter at 5th level, and 3/encounter at 10th level, or, barring that, 1/encounter at 1st level, 2/encounter at 4th level, 3/encounter at 7th level, and 4/encounter at 10th level. That way it's still useful, yet not insanely overpowered. Also, keep the Dex out of the DC, or keep the Int out of the DC. The DC will be high enough to cause problems. A final alternative: forget the death attack and make final strike automatically deal x2 damage (maybe increase it to x3 or even x4 at some point).

That would, of course, mean that you'd need a new ability to replace Invisible Strike...what about the ability to, either at will or X/encounter, Feint as a Swift action, allowing a Full Attack to still count towards Final Strike or Shatter Defense?

Another alternative for replacing invisible Strike is something that adds your Dexterity to damage instead of your Strength.

Finally (and not a problem), when this gets finalized I'd be tempted to play a Rogue 10/Bladesman 10...wonderful synergy there. :smallbiggrin:

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-03-12, 03:31 PM
If that is troubling you, then maybe axing the Instant Shatter and replacing it with Bladesmile. And I agree that charisma to AC doesn't make any sense.

AKA_Bait
2008-03-12, 03:55 PM
I like the concept, but I think this class can achieve insane unarmoured AC. Consider:

1-level dip to Monk (hurts BAB slightly, but gives plenty of skill points), followed by some stuff for 5 levels (Fighter, Swashbuckler, you get the idea), then some of this class, at which point we are adding Wis, Dex, Cha and Int to AC. If they're all 14 (easily attainable) that's an unarmoured, unequipped AC of 18, and it could well be more than that.



Fixed. Ah the wonders of simply saying it doesn't stack with Monk.


Since Feinting renders them flat-footed until the next round, this means that, once again, every other strike at 10th level is a save-or-die, again with a higher-than-normal DC since Dex gets added to the picture as well.

Well, I don't have as much of a problem with that as you do. I think the capstone ability of the class (which isn't accessable until level 15 at the earliest) anyway should be pretty friggin awesome. In my experience, once you hit 15 level and above, the (10 + Level + Stat) formula tends to yield saves that are pretty easy to beat. If a bunch of people have had not gotten that impression I'll change it.

A save or die every other round that also requires failing two sucessful bluff checks, (Feints) and being hit with a melee attack doesn't really seem that bad to me.

Edit: Adding the full Dex bonus to the DC might be a bit much in retrospect. I've changed it to 1/2 Dex bonus.


I'd make Final Strike 1/encounter at 1st level, 2/encounter at 5th level, and 3/encounter at 10th level, or, barring that, 1/encounter at 1st level, 2/encounter at 4th level, 3/encounter at 7th level, and 4/encounter at 10th level.

No offence or anything, but I really loathe the per encounter mechanic and I'd rather cut off my little toe than use it in a homebrew class.

Edit: Also, 4x and encounter, I would expect to be every other round in most encounters anyway.


Finally (and not a problem), when this gets finalized I'd be tempted to play a Rogue 10/Bladesman 10...wonderful synergy there. :smallbiggrin:

Cool. :smallsmile:

Edit: The feinting as a swift action idea is a good one. I've put that in, moved the other feint ability to 8th (and renamed it).


And I agree that charisma to AC doesn't make any sense.

Why not? If Feint (getting a guy to not realize where your sword will be in a moment) is a Cha based skill, why would unreadable body language (getting a guy not to know where you are going to be within your square) be weird?

AKA_Bait
2008-03-14, 08:56 AM
Bump.

Any more comments before I hand this to my players over the weekend?

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-03-14, 03:55 PM
Ah, I see now. It's a like a feint, but for AC. That makes a lot more sense now.

Oh, and massively is spelled thusly.