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Gorbash
2008-03-11, 04:59 AM
How do you actually make one? I keep reading about CoDzillas and stuff and while I understand how a cleric can be devastating I just don't see how the druid can also... So any links towards the topics of this nature or suggestions on making ones are extremly welcome. :smallwink:

Swooper
2008-03-11, 05:03 AM
It's quite simple. You just play a druid. The thing about 'Druidzilla' is that you don't need a build, the druid is that good right out of the book. You could pick Skill Focus on randomly selected skills for all your feats and you'd still be a freakin' giant bear, with another giant bear as your animal companion to back you up.

Of course, picking up Natural Spell on 6th level and making good choices for wildshape forms and companions helps, but it's nowhere near needed to be good.

Edit: Let me elaborate. The first four levels, you hang back, cast Entanglement and Summon Nature's Ally, and your animal companion does the killing. At 5th level, you get wildshape and can buff up and become a better fighter than the fighter. And you still have the animal. At 6th level, you get Natural Spell, and you're now able to hang out in bear form most of the day and still cast spells. From then on, it just gets worse as you get access to better wildshape forms and animal companions, not to mention you're still a full caster.

Gorbash
2008-03-11, 05:11 AM
Hm, good point, although I'm not that impressed with druid's spell list... How about taking nature's warrior prestige class?

Swooper
2008-03-11, 05:24 AM
I agree to a point on the druid spell list - it is indeed the worst of the three major ones in the PHB. There are some gems in between though. Consider:

1st - Entanglement, Shillelagh
2nd - [Animal's] [Stat], Barkskin, Spider Climb.
3rd - Greater Magic Fang (for your companion), Poison, Protection from Energy
4th - Freedom of Movement, Scrying, Spike Stones
5th - Baleful Polymorph, Death Ward, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire

I could go on I suppose, and Spell Compendium adds more good spells if you have access to it.

I'm not familiar with Nature's Warrior, I know it's in Complete Adventurer but I don't remember what it does. I doubt it'd be worth it - I don't think any PrC advances both your animal companion, your wildshaping and your spellcasting, your three major features. Druid is a good class to stick with all the way to 20.

Edit: Damn, now I wanna play a druid :smallredface:

tyckspoon
2008-03-11, 05:30 AM
I'm not familiar with Nature's Warrior, I know it's in Complete Adventurer but I don't remember what it does. I doubt it'd be worth it - I don't think any PrC advances both your animal companion, your wildshaping and your spellcasting, your three major features. Druid is a good class to stick with all the way to 20.


Planar Shepherd does. It'd be broken just for that even if it didn't have the planar trait shenanigans.

Swooper
2008-03-11, 05:34 AM
Planar Shepherd does. It'd be broken just for that even if it didn't have the planar trait shenanigans.
Oh gods. I didn't know that. I thought it was one of those classes that was worth losing, maybe two of those progressions for. Damn.

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-11, 05:36 AM
Don't forget that Druids can decent back-up healers. Augment Summoning is also good if you want to use alot of SNA spells (it needs Spell Focus (Conjuration) first, though.

Crow
2008-03-11, 05:40 AM
How does the Druid go about gaining flight? Most of his best forms can't fly. Does he have to just bite the bullet and be a little less effective?

Swooper
2008-03-11, 05:41 AM
True. I didn't want to go into all the details, though :smalltongue:

Xefas
2008-03-11, 05:56 AM
How does the Druid go about gaining flight? Most of his best forms can't fly. Does he have to just bite the bullet and be a little less effective?

If you have some Wild Shape uses to spare, couldn't you use this feat from Complete Divine (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Eagle~s_Wings,all) while already in whatever animal form you want?

Though, you're probably just better off buying an item of continuous fly that will fit on animal forms once you get into the far higher levels.

tyckspoon
2008-03-11, 05:56 AM
How does the Druid go about gaining flight? Most of his best forms can't fly. Does he have to just bite the bullet and be a little less effective?

Within the Core selection at least, yes. If they have to fight something that flies or while they themselves are flying the best choice is probably using Summon Nature's Ally to get backup. That changes when the Druid finally gets to Elemental wildshape; air elementals are quite at home in the sky, although probably still not quite as deadly as the best ground-bound shapes.

If you go into expanded Monster Manuals or non-core feats and classes, you get a lot more options. Being able to wildshape into a Magical Beast gets a lot of nice choices.

Edit: Or stick a Wilding Clasp on a set of Wings of Flying.

Gorbash
2008-03-11, 06:04 AM
Yes, every book is available, but I don't want to be ridiculously broken, like that Planar Shepherd (where's that from anyway?), so how do you get the ability to wild shape into magical beasts? Also, which parts of your equipment merge with your body once you wild shape and which ones stay (if I have Amulet of Mighty Fists, does it stay on me etc?)

And which are the best forms to wild shape into?

Baxbart
2008-03-11, 06:20 AM
Hmm, unless I'm mistaken, the Wilding Clasp never got updated to 3.5. It was included in a few of the 3.0 books, but I haven't seen it since.

As for items, all your equipment melds into your body unless your new form has the ability to use such an item ( I believe if you turn into a legendary ape, you can retain your melee weapon, for instance)

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-11, 06:22 AM
I thijnk apes can also use some other types of equipment (you may need to take things that you want to use in ape form off first, though). Isn't there an euipment enhancement which allows you to use other items when Wildshaped? Also, what does Planar Shepherd do?

Baxbart
2008-03-11, 06:34 AM
I thijnk apes can also use some other types of equipment (you may need to take things that you want to use in ape form off first, though). Isn't there an euipment enhancement which allows you to use other items when Wildshaped? Also, what does Planar Shepherd do?

Planar Shepherd is one of those PrCs that make you worry for the sanity of the WoTC designers. Not only is it relatively easy to qualify for (as a druid or wildshaping ranger), but it is full caster progression, and stacks for purposes of the druid major features (like animal companion and wildshape)

On top of that... it lets you wildshape into creatures of a chosen plane (magical creatures and outsiders). Oh, and it lets you keep all their extraordinary, supernatural and spell like abilities...

Oh... lets not forget planar bubble, which lets you take on all the properties of your chosen plane as if you were there (the obvious abuse being a 10:1 time ratio plane.. giving your entire party 10 rounds, per round of game time)

tyckspoon
2008-03-11, 06:39 AM
I thijnk apes can also use some other types of equipment (you may need to take things that you want to use in ape form off first, though). Isn't there an euipment enhancement which allows you to use other items when Wildshaped? Also, what does Planar Shepherd do?

What doesn't it do? It starts by progressing all three major base Druid features. Then you pick a plane. As the class progresses, it gets to wildshape into almost any type of creature that lives on the chosen plane. Eventually a Planar Shepherd can use any of the abilities of those creatures- spell-likes, supernatural, whatever. Choose a plane that has Efreeti or Noble Djinn for free Wishes. Take one that has Angels or Demons or Devils in it for all sorts of stuff you really shouldn't have (like the Movanic Deva with the spell-like Raise Dead.) I think you may even get to replace your animal companion with a denizen of the chosen plane, but it's been a while since I looked at the class directly so I may be making that up.

They also get the ability to survive the conditions of their chosen plane and to share that protection with the rest of their party. Eventually they can manifest a bubble (I think 20-foot radius) where the chosen plane's traits are in effect. The famous cheese here is to pick a plane that has a different time flow; Dal-Quor in Eberron has a 10-1 difference, IIRC, so it effectively operates as a super Time Stop. Just keep your opponents at least 20 feet away from you, turn on the bubble, and throw ten rounds worth of arrows/spells/summoned monsters at them. Less cheesy is something like Elemental Fire, where you just get a bubble of burniness and maybe more effective fire magic/hampered cold magic.. although if you picked Elemental Fire, you can abuse Wildshaping into an Efreet instead.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-11, 06:49 AM
As regards items:

1) I believe Wilding Clasps were updated in the MIC.

2) Technically, any item you can use in your new form should stay active in your new form according to one paragraph, and another paragraph says that all items are sucked in.

3) If you use that first Paragraph, realize that any item can be used in any form, Magical Bracers, Rings, excetra all fit the form that wears them.

4) If using the second rule, take all your items off before Wildshaping the first time, of course if you ever have to change forms in a hurry it can become a big deal, but do the best you can.

Gorbash
2008-03-11, 06:56 AM
Thanks. Any suggestions regarding good wild shape forms and how can I shape into magical beasts? And please don't turn this topic into a topic about brokeness of Planar Shepherd...

Baxbart
2008-03-11, 07:07 AM
Gorbash

I might suggest you try the Druid's handbook - found here: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=465005

It has an extensive list of good wildshape forms, as well as when you can access them. Hope thats of some help.

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-11, 07:15 AM
I see what you mean about Planar Shepherd. I think you need a feat to Wildshape as a Magical Beast. I'll try and find some information on it.
EDIT: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Magical_Beast_Wild_Shape,all . It's an Epic feat, so you won't be able to get it for a while.

Zincorium
2008-03-11, 07:18 AM
Thanks. Any suggestions regarding good wild shape forms and how can I shape into magical beasts? And please don't turn this topic into a topic about brokeness of Planar Shepherd...

Without master of many forms, one of your best options is Frozen Wildshape, from the Frostburn book, it allows you to change into magical beasts with the cold subtype.

Probably the best one for this, although you have to wait until you get huge wildshape, is a cryohydra. Pretty devastating. If the feat looks doable for you I can probably figure out some other really good ones.


On a side note, has anyone looked closely at the blighter prc from comp. divine? 9th level spells at level 15 seems pretty good, and so does the undead animal thing (no onyx requirement is always nice), but it might be kind of rough when you're just starting over.

GutterRunner
2008-03-11, 07:18 AM
At the weekend I found the Wild ablility for armour (in the PHB). for the cost of +3 enhancement your armours AC bonus applies while you're wildshaped (though the armour still melds with you). So, for around 17,000 gp you can have a + 1 Wild Dragonhide Breastplate, adding 6 to your Bearform (or whatever) AC. Seemed quite nice.

Baxbart
2008-03-11, 07:19 AM
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Magical_Beast_Wild_Shape,all

Its usually an epic feat... another nod in the direction of Planar Shepherds, er... usefulness

EDIT; Damn, ninja'd

Zincorium
2008-03-11, 07:29 AM
At the weekend I found the Wild ablility for armour (in the PHB). for the cost of +3 enhancement your armours AC bonus applies while you're wildshaped (though the armour still melds with you). So, for around 17,000 gp you can have a + 1 Wild Dragonhide Breastplate, adding 6 to your Bearform (or whatever) AC. Seemed quite nice.

Here's the better thing:

Technically, you no longer have a maximum dexterity, armor check penalty, or speed penalty when wildshaped. It doesn't talk about you effectively wearing that armor, you simply retain the armor bonus. So pick up that dragonhide fullplate and go nuts.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-11, 07:36 AM
2) Technically, any item you can use in your new form should stay active in your new form according to one paragraph, and another paragraph says that all items are sucked in.

The errata is fairly clear that worn items meld into the new form unlike the normal Alternate Form rules.


Wild Shape
...
This ability functions like the alternate form special
ability (see the Monster Manual), except as noted here.
...
Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new
form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts
to her true form, any objects previously melded into the
new form reappear in the same location on her body that
they previously occupied and are once again functional.
Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and
land at the druid's feet.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-11, 07:44 AM
The errata is fairly clear that worn items meld into the new form unlike the normal Alternate Form rules.

So I guess you are stuck taking off all your items and then putting them back on after Wildshaping, since of course Magic Items work on other forms.

Turcano
2008-03-11, 07:54 AM
I could go on I suppose, and Spell Compendium adds more good spells if you have access to it.

That's an understatement. First priority is the bite of the werewhatever line, those are arguably the best buff spells in the game. Phantom stag gives you all of the movement/flying goodness that phantom steed does. The vigor line gives you more healing bang for your spell slot buck. Word of balance works an most of the major outsiders. And let's not forget nature's avatar.

On other aspects of Druidzilla, MM3 gives you some nasty dinosaurs to play with (the Fleshraker is everyone's favorite), while MM2 gives you Legendary Animals (including the broken Legendary Ape). If you can somehow justify getting the feat Rashemi Elemental Summoning, you get air elementals that cast cone of cold. Initiate of Nature will let you rebuke animals. The possibilities are nearly endless.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-11, 07:55 AM
So I guess you are stuck taking off all your items and then putting them back on after Wildshaping, since of course Magic Items work on other forms.

Yup, not cumbersome at all, but it does limit the feasibility of changing forms mid-combat.

Burley
2008-03-11, 08:29 AM
I know people are going to hit me for this, but I wanna throw it out there. What do people think about the Shape Shifter alternate class feature? PHB2, I think? Let's you trade your Wild Shapes (many different animals x/day) for Shape Shifting (handful of animals, at-will). (I think you lose your animal companion, too...that's lame...)
I think its pretty cool, since when playing a druid, I'd always feel a little stupid using a wild-shape when we needed to scout something, or when I needed to fly up and grab something. X/days are important to me, and I like to hoard them.

Also, Planar Bubble: Could you make an extra-dimensional space bubble? Create an entire universe around you?

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-11, 08:35 AM
I made one, http://rustmonster.net/sheet/?view=598 , but I haven't had a chance to try him yet (I designed him for solo games). I chose that variant because I'd get confused if I tried using a normal Druid (I thought this version sounded good witout being too powerful as well). Yes, you do lose the animal companion. Page 39 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf contains information about them.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-11, 08:52 AM
Yup, not cumbersome at all, but it does limit the feasibility of changing forms mid-combat.

Yeah, it significantly reduces combat versatility and is a real pain in some situations where you don't have the time (Darting into an alley and changing into a Crow to escape pursuit, feasible. Darting into an alley, taking off all your items, changing into a crow, putting on all your items as a crow and flying off, not so much) But at least if you know you are going to be facing the BBEG and have time before hand you can take your overall "best" combat form and then equip yourself.

And of course, Wilding Clasps.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-11, 09:13 AM
And of course, Wilding Clasps.

Yes throwing around enough gold pieces can make most problems go away. :smallamused:

Person_Man
2008-03-11, 09:20 AM
As others have laid out, its really strait forward. You have a bunch of options, all of them really strong:

1) Mounted Combat: Fun at low levels. Ride around on your animal companion. Pick one with auto Trip or Grapple. Cast Flame Blade or something similar and go to town. You usually end up with 2-5 attacks + special attack very early in the game, a lot more then most other builds. Heal yourself and your mount as needed. Use your superior movement rate to take down enemy casters, and then flank with your party members or summoned friends. Your companion/mount is generally superior to any other mounted build, with the exception of a Paladin with Leadership or Dragon Cohort. Use it. Although this tactic is viable at any level, you don't want to invest any feats in this combo, since you'll have much better options later.

2) Battlefield Control: Druids excel at this. Summon a bunch of animals spontaneously and flood the zone. You also have a variety of excellent battlefield control spells on your list (Entangle, Solid Fog, etc). Once they're locked down, hang back and blast your enemies, shoot them with a bow, or just watch them get eaten. Generally doesn't require any feat investment, though I'm a fan of Augment Summoning, Beckon the Frozen + Energy Substitution (Cold), Summon Elemental, Imbued Summoning, Greenbound Summoning, etc. Works at any level.

3) Wildshape + Natural Spell + Buffs: Pretty standard way to be better then 90% of the melee builds in the game.

4) Wildshape feats: This is where the most abuse happens. Frozen Wild Shape, Aberration Wild Shape, and Dragon Wild Shape. Allows you to turn into a cryohydra, chuul, beholder, your favorite dragon, etc.

Oh, and this is just with a strait Druid. There are some nasty prestige classes out there as well. And I haven't even bothered to look at all the splat book spells, which pretty much let you pull off any tactic any other caster wants to do.

Gorbash
2008-03-11, 12:05 PM
I'm just not sure about one thing - when I wild shape into an animal which has Improved Natural Attack feats, do I get the benefit of them or no? Since wild shape mentions (actually alter self, but wild shape functions like polymorph which functions like alter self) that you get only the racial bonus feats of the animal you change into, and I have no clue whether Imp Natural Attack is racial or gain by the HD advancement.

Squash Monster
2008-03-11, 12:07 PM
Shapeshift is nowhere near as strong as wildshape. It's really useful as a nerf to the class, honestly.

Frostburn and Sandstorm have some wonderful Druid spells, as well. Frostburn's blizzard, for starters.

Anyway, step by step, what makes druids awesome:

Spells.
If you took all the spells in the game and ranked them on a scale from one to five, wizard spells would form a bell curve, cleric spells would form a flat distribution, and druid spells would all be almost all ones and the occasional six. The druid list includes these gems, among others:
Entangle (best level one battlefield control)
Shillelagh (best level one buff)
Plant Growth (solid fog, but lower level, bigger, and ground only)
Awaken (create permanent huge constructs, create intelligent wolves that qualify for improved trip)
Animal Growth (mass Righteous Might, but for animals only)

Animal companion.
Even if animal companions sucked, they'd be extra actions and extra space on the battlefield. However, a good animal companion is really insanely good. You could have fleshraker, which destroys anything it touches, or in core you could have a riding dog, which has wolf tripping. It runs up to somebody and trips them. Standing provokes an attack of opportunity, so as long as it stays next to them they have to risk another bite and another trip attempt to stand. A little animal growth and now he can lock anybody out of the game.

Wild shape.
Fly. Burrow. Swim. Dozens of amazing combat forms. Bears win at grapple. Rhino-like monsters do crazy damage on charges. Ape forms make Shillelagh useful again, as now you have insane stats to back up your big thwacking stick. Later on, you can be a tendrillicus and eat your opponents to death.

Turcano
2008-03-11, 07:00 PM
Oh, and this is just with a strait Druid. There are some nasty prestige classes out there as well. And I haven't even bothered to look at all the splat book spells, which pretty much let you pull off any tactic any other caster wants to do.

Actually, the Druid is one of the very few base classes that is actually weakened by taking prestige classes, as druid levels increase three abilities (caster levels, wildshape, and animal companion, plus the miscellaneous stuff). So if you choose a prestige class, you have to make sure it's an awesome one.

Chronos
2008-03-11, 11:18 PM
The per-day limitation of Wildshape isn't all that significant, once you realize that each use lasts 1 hour per level. So at level 7, you can spend 21 hours out of 24 in your shape of choice, and at level 8, it's all day. You do still have to spend uses to change forms, but the most likely use for Wildshape is going to be combat, so just stay in Dire Bear or Legendary Ape or Tyrannosaur or whatever form until you need something else, and you'll be unlikely to use up all of your uses.

For the spell list, I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Control Winds yet. Huge area of effect, and it completely shuts down ranged attacks, piles the enemy wherever you want them on the battlefield, and batters everything into unconsciousness (or death, depending on level and ambient wind conditions). It doesn't even allow spell resistance.

horseboy
2008-03-11, 11:44 PM
If "all books open" grab Draconomicon for Dragon wild shape. There's your flying.

Lucyfur
2008-03-12, 12:39 PM
One problem you run into as a druid is communicating with your party while wildshaped. I've come up with a couple of ideas, such as.

-Contact Medallion- (Mic) Rarys telepathic bond 3/day. (But it's a standard action to activate. 3k gp

-Best for a druid would be convincing the gm to allow a custom magic item that just allows you to speak normally. Don't know if they would go for this though.

Also, the Fast Wildshape feat is great at lvl 9. Imagine this.

1st round. Wildshape into big bear (move action) Cast Bite of the WearBear(std)
2nd round. Cast swift Lions Charge and charge with a full attack.
Bringing the pain.

Lucyfur
2008-03-12, 03:03 PM
Just wanted to add the stats of the above Big Bear.

Bite of the Wearbear is a 6th lvl spell so we'll be an 11th lvl druid wildshaping into a Brown Bear (lvl 12 gets a Dire Bear.)

Brown Bear
Hp: 11d8 + 66 (115) (Given a Base Con of 14)
AC: 35 (-1 Siz, +2 Dex, +12 Natural Armor, +9 Armor(+1 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate), +3 Shield (+1 Animated Hvy Wooden Shield)
Bab: +8/+3
Grapple +28/+23
Attack: 2 Claws +24 (1d8+16), Bite +19 (2d6+8)
Abilities: Str 43 (+16), Con 22(+6) (Using Druids Base), Dex 15(+2)

66 avg dmg.

Add some Girallons Blessing and Evards Menacing Tentacles for 5 more attacks durring that charge.

Gorbash
2008-03-12, 05:55 PM
And to think the DM wouldn't allow me to play a wizard because we would have been too strong... So I can actually cast Bite of the Werewolf while in a bear form?

Chronos
2008-03-12, 06:08 PM
As long as you take Natural Spell, yes.

And the fact that druids are stupidly overpowered doesn't mean that wizards aren't stupidly overpowered, too.

Gorbash
2008-03-12, 06:26 PM
Seems kinda stupid... I'm a bear with wolf features...

But I still don't see how's druid as good as a Batman, though... Except for insane amounts of damage he can do, but Batman's awesome without doing any dmg...

Gorbash
2008-03-12, 06:37 PM
Seems kinda stupid... I'm a bear with wolf features...

But I still don't see how's druid as good as a Batman, though... Except for insane amounts of damage he can do, but Batman's awesome without doing any dmg...

Chronos
2008-03-12, 07:06 PM
But I still don't see how's druid as good as a Batman, though... Except for insane amounts of damage he can do, but Batman's awesome without doing any dmg...What Batman does, he does better than Druzilla. But Druzilla can still do all of it, plus other things. Save-or-suck? Baleful Polymorph, Finger of Death. Teleportation? Transport via Plants, Word of Recall. Divination? Scrying, Commune with Nature, Speak with Animals, Speak with Plants. Battlefield control? Entangle, Wall of Stone. But the druid also gets things like healing spells and Restoration, which Batman can get only with difficulty (paying XP to simulate with (Limited) Wish, for example). And while a wizard can usually manage to cover for his weaknesses, the druid just doesn't have the weaknesses in the first place.

It's very tough to sneak up on a druid, since he prioritizes Wisdom, and has Listen and Spot as class skills. You can't mess with a druid's equipment (Sunder, Shatter, Sleight of Hand, etc.), since it's all merged into his wildshape form. He's got better HP and saves than the wizard. He's got good AC, since he can wear a suit of wild dragonhide full plate, plus dex and natural armor bonuses from whatever he's turned into. At the very lowest levels, where everyone else is dangerously squishy, he's got an extra fighter as a class feature, and if that extra fighter dies, he can just get a replacement the next day. Even if you're in an antimagic field, your animal companion is still going to be comparable to the party's warriors, so you're still contributing as much as anyone else.

Squash Monster
2008-03-12, 07:19 PM
The thing is, a good wizard always has exactly the right spell to solve a problem. The druid always has a horrible cludge that will solve the problem.

Now sure, the wizard's way is "better". But even if the druid's way isn't elegant, it still gets the job done with the same or less resources expended. So, in the end, it doesn't matter.

On the other hand, the druid can do certain things without even thinking. In a fight, a druid can just use whatever form he's currently wildshaped into and his animal companion, and that'll be plenty most of the time. The wizard, on the other hand, can't contribute meaningfully to a combat without casting a spell.

If you describe a list of problems you've encountered on a typical adventure, I can try to show you how a druid would go about handling it.

Gorbash
2008-03-12, 07:38 PM
Well, I haven't been playing this druid yet, I'm supposed to join an ongoing Shackled City campaign (they just got lvl 6), and this will be my first druid ever, so I wasn't sure what it was that made him good...

So far, I know he's going to be a Human (old probably), with Improved Unnarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Natural Spell, so I'm open for suggestions for the fourth feat (at some point I'll take Frozen Wild Shape, aka Cryohydra Wild Shape), and regarding the items, since I have 13 000 gp I can squize in an +1 Beastskin Dragonhide Breastplate, I have no idea what to do with the rest or even if this is a good idea, so feel free to give good item combos...

Person_Man
2008-03-12, 07:49 PM
Actually, the Druid is one of the very few base classes that is actually weakened by taking prestige classes, as druid levels increase three abilities (caster levels, wildshape, and animal companion, plus the miscellaneous stuff). So if you choose a prestige class, you have to make sure it's an awesome one.

Well, yes and no.

In general, I agree with you. But as you stipulated, there are a few that are just too awesome/game breaking. Planar Shepard comes to mind.

Also, it's been my personal experience that Druids can do everything, but they can't do everything at the same time. I find that its rare for them to combine heavy Wildshape/melee combat with heavy casting. They tend to focus Wildshape and just use casting for healing and buffing before boss fights, or they focus on casting and use Wildshape when cornered or for scouting. So you could easily focus on Wildshaping (Master of Many Forms) or spellcasting (anything with full caster progression), and still be very potent, but with the specialized abilities that suit your particular character. Giving up one or the other really isn't that big of a deal, unless your party is so powerful that you need to buff yourself before every combat and then go into a Wildshape form.

horseboy
2008-03-12, 08:18 PM
Well, I haven't been playing this druid yet, I'm supposed to join an ongoing Shackled City campaign (they just got lvl 6), and this will be my first druid ever, so I wasn't sure what it was that made him good...

So far, I know he's going to be a Human (old probably), with Improved Unnarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Natural Spell, so I'm open for suggestions for the fourth feat (at some point I'll take Frozen Wild Shape, aka Cryohydra Wild Shape), and regarding the items, since I have 13 000 gp I can squize in an +1 Beastskin Dragonhide Breastplate, I have no idea what to do with the rest or even if this is a good idea, so feel free to give good item combos...
Druids don't really need a whole lot of gear. I'd go with a couple of wands of clw, maybe some pots. Why the Improved Unarmed strike?

Saph
2008-03-12, 08:25 PM
The thing is, a good wizard always has exactly the right spell to solve a problem. The druid always has a horrible cludge that will solve the problem.

This one made me laugh, because there's a lot of truth to it. :)

I've been playing a druid from levels 3 through 11 in a World's Largest Dungeon campaign. The druidic style of solving problems is . . . straightforward. Generally it comes down to:

"I charge it, grapple it, and rip its face off"

or,

"I cast a spell, then charge it, grapple it, and rip its face off"

and sometimes,

"I summon something else to charge it and rip its face off, then also charge it and rip its face off."

It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.

- Saph

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-12, 08:27 PM
It's surprising how many problems can be solved by one druid spell combined with enough aggression.

- Saph

Over 9000 problems?

Turcano
2008-03-12, 11:28 PM
Well, I haven't been playing this druid yet, I'm supposed to join an ongoing Shackled City campaign (they just got lvl 6), and this will be my first druid ever, so I wasn't sure what it was that made him good...

So far, I know he's going to be a Human (old probably), with Improved Unnarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Natural Spell, so I'm open for suggestions for the fourth feat (at some point I'll take Frozen Wild Shape, aka Cryohydra Wild Shape), and regarding the items, since I have 13 000 gp I can squize in an +1 Beastskin Dragonhide Breastplate, I have no idea what to do with the rest or even if this is a good idea, so feel free to give good item combos...

What thought have you given to your focus for your spellcasting? Buffs are a given, so you'll probably want to focus on healing, attack spells, or summoning.


Also, it's been my personal experience that Druids can do everything, but they can't do everything at the same time.

True, but I'm the kind of player who likes to keep his options open (which is why I also don't like specialized wizards).

Gorbash
2008-03-13, 06:59 AM
Druids don't really need a whole lot of gear. I'd go with a couple of wands of clw, maybe some pots. Why the Improved Unarmed strike?

Prerequisite for Improved Grapple.


What thought have you given to your focus for your spellcasting? Buffs are a given, so you'll probably want to focus on healing, attack spells, or summoning.

Well, it's a big party I'm joining, there will be 5 of us - Blaster Sorcerer (only spells she uses are Scorching Ray and other evocation crap), Ranger/Animal Lord (decent close combat), Barbarian, Barbarian/Cleric/Stormlord (don't ask) and Bard/Rogue, so healing is covered as well as close combat, so I'm going to be focusing on self buffing and ripping stuff apart.

Crazy Scot
2008-03-13, 09:06 AM
For my 2cp, I would put forward an idea that really hasn't been broached yet. I have posted this idea on a different thread, but you can use it or ignore it as you see fit. Either way, enjoy! I know that there is a lot to read and consider, but I feel this is probably one of the strongest builds I have found.

Jungle Kobold (and if the DM allows it - "Feral creature" template from Savage Species)

NG Druid (up to whatever level you are building)

Flaws (Unearthe Arcana p. 91 => choose any two, I would recommend "Shaky" and "Murky-eyed" since I would play this character as a melee fighter type)

Feat choices:
1st level: Dragonwrought, Dragon Tail, Dragon Wings
3rd level: Sacred Vow [BoED]
6th level: Vow of Poverty [BoED]
9th level: Improved Dragon Wings
Other feats to consider: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell (allows a buff spell to last 24 hrs), Multiattack (reduced secondary natural attacks to only have a -2 penalty to hit), Improved Multiattack (reduces secondary natrual attack modifier to 0)

Spell choices: (I don't have all my books in front of me so some of this will be from memory, I appologize for it now)
Bite of the were____ (SC) - gives nice boost to ability scores and a bite attack
Girallon's Blessing (SC) - gives you 4 more arms and attacks
Charge of the Triceratops (SC) - gives gore attack
[forgotten spell] (SC) - grow two 10' long tentacles from shoulder that you can attack with, each grants one extra AoO for you per turn
---> with the above spells and feats you have 11 attacks (bite, gore, 6 claws, 2 tentacles, tail) all with an enhancement bonus to hit and damage from VoP.

Other choice spells would be anything that boosts your Wisdom (i.e. Owl's Wisdom). You could try to boost your AC, but with it already somewhere in the 30+ bracket (depending on how you build it) you should be pretty hard to hit by just about anything except extra powerful single creatures.

Spells not as necessary: Healing spells (for yourself) if you have Fast Healing from the Feral creature template.

If you want a fun companion, try the alternate class feature from Complete Mage. You sacrifice your companion and your wild empathy class ability. You need one rank in Knowledge (The Planes) and the ability to speak the language of the plane of your choice. Then you gain an elemental as a companion, that grows with you. Among the nice things about them is that since they don't need to sleep, they can take the watches through the night while you rest. I personally would recommend the Air Elemental (especially if you take the Improved Dragon Wings feat since it will be one of the few companions that can keep up with you then).

The Feral creature template is only a +1 level adjustment and gives you a +6 natural armor bonus to AC; a +10' bonus to speed; 2 claw attacks each dealing 1d6 damage; the special abilities of: improved grab, pounce, rake and rend; fast healing; darkvision; Str +4, Dex -2, Con +2, Int -4, and Wis +2.

With Vow of Poverty you will gain a nice bonus to AC without having to wear anything. You will also gain an effective enhancement bonus to all of your attacks (up to 11 attacks per round, even on a charge). You also get a bonus to all your saves, and a bonus to your Natural AC.

Since with the Vow of Poverty feat you can't own or use armor, use the alternate class ability from Unearthed Arcana p. 58. If you do this you sacrifice your armor and shield proficiencies (no big deal since you can't use them anyway) and your wildshape ability (you can use polymorph and shapechange for short durations if you really need to) and instead you gain the bonus to AC of a monk (including adding your Wis modifier to AC), fast movement of a monk, favored enemies (as ranger), swift tracker (as ranger), and the Track feat. All said, a pretty good trade off since one of the things you sacrifice you can't use anyway.

With the Vow of Poverty feat, you gain bonus "Exalted" feats at every even level starting at 6th. I would recommend feats like Intuitive Attack (which allows you to use your Wis modifier instead of Dex on attack rolls), Nemesis (which allows you to detect all favored enemies within 60'), and Touch of Golden Ice (which is effectively a low-level poison that you pass to any evil creature you hit with each hit you land [and with up to 11 attacks per round on a full attack that could be very bad for them]).

Vow of Poverty also grants you bonuses to ability scores, I would recommend Wis, Dex, Str then Con. At this point, you should have a pretty high Wis bonus, but that is the point since it is probably the most important one right now. If you took the Intuitive Attack feat from BoED, you now have Wis affecting your spellcasting capabilities, AC (from monk abilities) and your attack rolls.

Again, Wisdom is your friend in this build. Dexterity will help your AC. Strength will help you hit harder. And Constitution will give you those extra hit points in case you git hit hard (though with d8 hit dice you should be on par with a ranger, and Fast Healing from the Feral creature template should cover just about anything else).

For even more cheese, you can try to qualify for the "Saint" template from BoED. This, of course, is up to your DM and there is a list of requirements from the book (p. 29) about what you should have to do to get the template. But if you can, there are few +2 level adjustment templates that can compare to it. For full details about what you get, see page 185-186.

Tempest Fennac
2008-03-13, 09:11 AM
That is really powerful, but I think Gorbash wanted Wild Shape due to his intention of starting as Old aged, so te alternative class ability wouldn't really work.

Crazy Scot
2008-03-13, 09:18 AM
That is really powerful, but I think Gorbash wanted Wild Shape due to his intention of starting as Old aged, so te alternative class ability wouldn't really work.

I know that it is a step away from what others were recommending, and losing wildshape is a big drawback, but the combination works really well together. It is a powerful combination, but it might not work in all campaigns depending upon the composition of the rest of the party. It was just my idea, and like I said, he can use it or not as he sees fit and it won't hurt my feelings either way. Also, by taking the Dragonwrought feat, you wouldn't take any penalties from aging, but gain the bonuses, so age yourself all you want.

Turcano
2008-03-13, 06:59 PM
Well, it's a big party I'm joining, there will be 5 of us - Blaster Sorcerer (only spells she uses are Scorching Ray and other evocation crap), Ranger/Animal Lord (decent close combat), Barbarian, Barbarian/Cleric/Stormlord (don't ask) and Bard/Rogue, so healing is covered as well as close combat, so I'm going to be focusing on self buffing and ripping stuff apart.

Since healing and attack spells seem to be well-covered by other party members, you may want to consider focusing on summoning; druids make the perfect summoner, as they can do it spontaneously and their summon list is arguably better than summon monster. With this in mind, you may wish to take Spell Focus (conjuration) and Augment Summoning; Beckon the Frozen may also fit thematically, since you seem to be keen on the cryohydra wildshape form. As I said before, if you can justify Rashemi Elemental Summoning, go for that above everything else.

Squash Monster
2008-03-13, 08:20 PM
Buffing, summoning, battlefield control, and wildshape are the best areas to dedicate feats to. These are your biggest strengths, but they don't work very well together. Try to find feats that make them work together. And yes, animal companion is great, but it doesn't need feats to help it work with your other abilities.

Natural Spell, of course, is a no-brainer. It lets your wildshape work together with the rest of your strengths.

Combat Reflexes is another one I like on a druid. Many forms have high dexterity scores that let you use it. The reason this feat is so nice is that it lets you do things on other people's turns. If you're big and scary and sit next to somebody fragile, you can keep using your actions to cast spells, but still take advantage of being big and scary.

Extend Spell is fantastic. It works on all your best types of spells.

Ashbound Summoning is even better. It's a free extend for your summons. I'd recommend having both this and extend available by the time that you get Animal Growth. If you put both extend on an ashbound summoning, you can easily have summons that last multiple fights. This makes using animal growth on these summons a lot more palatable. At higher levels an extended animal growth could last multiple fights as well, which is glorious.

Finally, a wonderful little set of feats is Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, and Metamagic School Focus: Conjuration. The first is a prerequisite to the rest. Augment summoning is a popular feat with which I'm sure you're all familiar. And finally, the metamagic school focus lets you get free extend on three conjuration spells per day. That's any of your summons and half your battlefield control.

I don't know any good feats for a druid's battlefield control spells though. The spells are spread out between transmutation and conjuration a lot more than a wizard's are, so it's hard to do school-specific optimization for them. Can anybody suggest some good ones?

Gorbash
2008-03-14, 04:26 PM
Buffing, summoning, battlefield control, and wildshape are the best areas to dedicate feats to. These are your biggest strengths, but they don't work very well together. Try to find feats that make them work together. And yes, animal companion is great, but it doesn't need feats to help it work with your other abilities.

Natural Spell, of course, is a no-brainer. It lets your wildshape work together with the rest of your strengths


Yes, I will be focusing on wild shaping, so I would need feats for that (Natural spell is a must, yes), though I have no clue which ones are the best...

Turcano
2008-03-14, 07:34 PM
Yes, I will be focusing on wild shaping, so I would need feats for that (Natural spell is a must, yes), though I have no clue which ones are the best...

The thing is that most wildshaping feats aren't very good, and out of the good ones, you kind of need to specialize since they tend not to work well together; by picking Frozen Wild Shape, you've pretty much already done that. If you want suggestions for more wildshape feats, Lion's Pounce and (if your DM is stupid enough to let Savage Species on the table) Assume Supernatural ability are pretty much it. However, if your DM is really stupid and lets you have the spell venomfire, Serpent's Venom is another possibility (although it would be much less of a pain to just wildshape into something that already has a poison attack). That's why I suggested that you also branch out into summoning if you have any feats left over.

dyslexicfaser
2008-03-14, 09:01 PM
Don't forget that druids are the best summoners in the game (barring Conjuration Specialist/Malconvokers at the higher levels or, maybe, Shaper/Constrictors), and Rashemi Element Summoning or Greenbound Summoning just increases your crazy summoning powers (depending on whether you like elementals or animals more).

One strong PrC for druids (though not as bad as Planar Shepherd) is the Shifter druid's Moonspeaker Shaman from.. either Magic of Eberron or Races of Eberron. Look into it. It is awesome.

Or if you want to Wildshape all the time but don't want to lose your spells a la Master of Many Forms, get Draconic Wildshape from Draconomicon. It is cruel.

Cuddly
2008-03-14, 09:02 PM
How does Druidzilla get around DR/slashing and still put out damage?

Worira
2008-03-14, 09:07 PM
How does Druidzilla get around DR/slashing and still put out damage?

Uh... Claws and bites?

Cuddly
2008-03-14, 09:12 PM
Uh... Claws and bites?

A level 6 or 7 druid vs. a big skeleton is going to have to fall back on spells, since his claws aren't going to do crap to it. And his tiger or fleshraker companion is going to do even less damage.

Bite attacks are good, but you only get one of those/round.

Worira
2008-03-14, 09:25 PM
Skeletons have DR/bludgeoning.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-14, 09:28 PM
A level 6 or 7 druid vs. a big skeleton is going to have to fall back on spells, since his claws aren't going to do crap to it. And his tiger or fleshraker companion is going to do even less damage.

Bite attacks are good, but you only get one of those/round.

Bear form and Grapple it to death. Give it a big ol' bear hug. At 6 HD, the Brown Bear gets Improved Grapple free. The Strength is sufficently high to make sure that no skele will be able to break out, and it is also Large size.

Cuddly
2008-03-14, 09:38 PM
Skeletons have DR/bludgeoning.

Oh. That's what I meant. Heh.

Cuddly
2008-03-14, 09:41 PM
Bear form and Grapple it to death. Give it a big ol' bear hug. At 6 HD, the Brown Bear gets Improved Grapple free. The Strength is sufficently high to make sure that no skele will be able to break out, and it is also Large size.

You don't gain feats of the animals you wildshape into.
Maybe you meant improved grab?
Bear shape may be good against skeletons, but it's likely that they could just grapple you (assuming that they have a few more HD than you do so that they're actually a challenge and not scenery).

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-14, 09:49 PM
You don't gain feats of the animals you wildshape into.
Maybe you meant improved grab?
Bear shape may be good against skeletons, but it's likely that they could just grapple you (assuming that they have a few more HD than you do so that they're actually a challenge and not scenery).

It's not a feat, it's an (Ex) ability. Brown Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm) from the SRD.

And since it's an Ex attack, you get it.

Doesn't matter if they've got more HD than you. You've got more strength than they do, and probably equal size in the bargain.

horseboy
2008-03-14, 10:07 PM
Skeletons have DR/bludgeoning.And is one of those times turning into a giant snake does help.

Squash Monster
2008-03-14, 10:17 PM
Yes, I will be focusing on wild shaping, so I would need feats for that (Natural spell is a must, yes), though I have no clue which ones are the best...Combat Reflexes. Lets you use your form's melee goodness via attacks of opportunity while you use your own actions to cast spells.

For more focused wildshapers, take one of these:

In Lords of Madness: Aberrant Blood (lousy qualifier) -> Aberrant Wild Shape (wild shape into aberrations). And, while you're there, Aberrant Reach (+5' reach) if your DM lets it stay there while wildshaped.

Or, in Frostburn: Frozen Wildshape (lets you wildshape into magical beasts with cold subtype).

Now, once you have one of these, pick up Assume Supernatural Ability (Savage Species). Congrats, now you're death.

Gorbash
2008-03-15, 09:43 PM
Bear form and Grapple it to death. Give it a big ol' bear hug. At 6 HD, the Brown Bear gets Improved Grapple free. The Strength is sufficently high to make sure that no skele will be able to break out, and it is also Large size.

Brown Bear is Large, so you can take that form on 8th lvl... Before that, you can only shift into Black Bear who doesn't have Improved Grab. Although leopard has rake and/or pounce, so it's a good form untill you hit 8.

Since I'll be playing Human Druid, my feats will be something like this:

1. Improved Unnarmed Strike
1. Improved Grapple
3. Combat Reflexes
6. Natural Spell
9. Frozen Wild Shape
12. Assume Supernatural Ability (if the DM allows it)

Then, at 15th lvl I become 12 headed Cryohydra, and that's pretty much it. I will maybe swap Improved Grapple and Unn Strike for Improved Natural Attack (claw and bite) if the DM allows me to, but I doubt that.

And question about Assume Supernatural Ability - do I pick a supernatural ability of one form and must stick to it, or I can change it every time I wild shape? Say, I shape into a Cryohydra and take its Breath Weapon and create an Ice Age, next time I take its fast healing and become Jesus or I must stick with one I choose when I take the feat?

Turcano
2008-03-15, 10:34 PM
Since I'll be playing Human Druid, my feats will be something like this:

1. Improved Unnarmed Strike
1. Improved Grapple
3. Combat Reflexes
6. Natural Spell
9. Frozen Wild Shape
12. Assume Supernatural Ability (if the DM allows it)

Then, at 15th lvl I become 12 headed Cryohydra, and that's pretty much it. I will maybe swap Improved Grapple and Unn Strike for Improved Natural Attack (claw and bite) if the DM allows me to, but I doubt that.

I'd put off taking Frozen Wild Shape until level 15; you can't wildshape into a Huge creature until then, and all hydras are huge. Either that, or take ASA first.

tyckspoon
2008-03-15, 10:47 PM
How does Druidzilla get around DR/slashing and still put out damage?

Shillelagh, Flame Blade, or Produce Flame. It wouldn't be Druidzilla if Wildshape forms were the only way it could try to solve problems.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-03-15, 10:50 PM
How does Druidzilla get around DR/bludgeoning and still put out damage?

By putting out enough melee damage to smash through the DR.

dyslexicfaser
2008-03-15, 11:48 PM
And is one of those times turning into a giant snake does help.

Turning into a giant snake is always a good idea.

...

Ignore all those films and TV shows with evidence to the contrary.

Squash Monster
2008-03-15, 11:58 PM
Shillelagh, Flame Blade, or Produce Flame. It wouldn't be Druidzilla if Wildshape forms were the only way it could try to solve problems.Level-appropriate ape form first, then Shillelagh. Wildshape isn't the only way to solve problems, but it still is the best seasoning.


If the only thing you can think of doing with Frozen Wild Shape is assuming hydra form, I'd recommend against it. Use Aberrant Wild Shape instead. With your build, either will finish its setup at 15th level, and Aberrant Wild Shape is stronger overall. The only reasons to take Frozen are if you don't want a deformity or if the extra feat puts you off too much.

Personally, my build of choice for a wild-shape based Druid would be:
1. Combat Reflexes
3. Aberrant Blood
6. Natural Spell
9. Aberration Wild Shape
12. Assume Supernatural Ability (if the DM allows it)

The extra feat for human is your pick. I'd take Extend Spell though, since buffs are important.

Also note that Goliaths, Shifters, and Warforged are all good races for wildshape focused Druids. Goliaths can work up to Knockback, which is crazy on high-strength forms. Shifters can shift while shaped, which makes it possible to pick up a crazy number of extra natural attacks. And all the crazy Warforged immunities apply even while wildshaped.

And no, the racial features that power these combos don't go away when wild-shaping, according to the polymorph errata.

Lucyfur
2008-03-24, 12:50 PM
Pounce is nasty.

8th lvl
Dire Lion (Buffs- Girallons Blessing, Evard's Menacing Tentacles)
Charge and Pounce
Attacks: 2 claws +12 melee (1d6+7), 2 tentacles + 12 (1d8 + 7), 2 Claws +7 (1d4+3), rend (2d4+10), 2 rakes +12 (1d6+3) and bite +7 melee (1d8+3)

That's 10 attacks at lvl 8 doing 90.5 damage on average if they all hit, with just 2 buffs running.