Jillian may be making a bad mistake...

[The Old Hack]

I've thought a bit about Jillian's 'brilliant' plan to head Stanley off. Let's say she is right, that her superior knowledge of the region will allow her to intercept him. Good for her. Now she is facing not a flight of badly wounded dwagons led by Uncroaked, but rather a completely fresh group led by Stanley himself -- and incidentally the power of the Arkenhammer. Too, I doubt that she will be able to count on an Ansom rescue this time unless he decides to come along, which I admit is possible.

In short, I think she is being overconfident and careless as usual. She risks having her head handed to her again -- especially if Parson's maneuver with Charlie succeeds and Charlie withdraws his Archons or has them change Sides.

[archon_huskie]

And none of these stack leaders are undead so even if Ansom came with the Arkenpilers it will not be as awesome as last time.

[slayerx]

Not necessarily... we don't know how large of a force Jillian will be brining with her on this fight. She's taking every flying unit with 26+ movement, but there's no telling how many that is, though this likely includes the archons... and there is a possibility for Vinnie or Ansom to join in since they might have high enough movement when flying (Ansom on the carpet)... if anything, a warlord could be mounted onto one of the gwiffens... Ansom believes he has 4 times the force necessary to take out GK, so he won't mind sparing a warlord or two; not to mention the fact that croaking Stanely would save them the trouble to taking over GK

Another thing to take in mind is that fact the Dwagons fight for Stanely by virtue of him wielding the Hammer... the moment Stanely is croaked the battle will be over... So Jillian just needs enough force to give her a chance to croak Stanely not the entire flight of dwagons


And none of these stack leaders are undead so even if Ansom came with the Arkenpilers it will not be as awesome as last time.

One quesiton is whether or not those three kinghts were promoted to warlord or not... if not then there's not much to worry about from them

[VaeVictis]

If Jillian claims her birthright - what happens to FAQ?

Does it become a full city and instantly pop people/workers/soldiers etc. as Parson found out from Wanda? Stanley could suddenly find himself attacking a fully populated city (albeit a small one)? Could be awkward for Stanley...

[hajo]

If Jillian claims her birthright - what happens to FAQ?
Does it become a full city and instantly pop people/workers/soldiers etc.
That would be part of the "rebuild"-step, but it is assumed that it will cost a significant amount of money - presumable much more than the 1700 Jillian has left over (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0092.html).


Stanley could suddenly find himself attacking a fully populated city (albeit a small one)? Could be awkward for Stanley...
Without an army big enough to defend FAQ, Stanley would easily re-conquer FAQ, and rebuild again...

[The Old Hack]

Not necessarily... we don't know how large of a force Jillian will be brining with her on this fight. She's taking every flying unit with 26+ movement, but there's no telling how many that is, though this likely includes the archons... and there is a possibility for Vinnie or Ansom to join in since they might have high enough movement when flying (Ansom on the carpet)... if anything, a warlord could be mounted onto one of the gwiffens... Ansom believes he has 4 times the force necessary to take out GK, so he won't mind sparing a warlord or two; not to mention the fact that croaking Stanely would save them the trouble to taking over GK

Another thing to take in mind is that fact the Dwagons fight for Stanely by virtue of him wielding the Hammer... the moment Stanely is croaked the battle will be over... So Jillian just needs enough force to give her a chance to croak Stanely not the entire flight of dwagons

This is assuming that Stanley is readily killable, which may be a tall order. We know about Stanley that he is a terrible Overlord. But we also know that he won a LOT of battles back when he was merely a Warlord. Stanley might have very high bonuses indeed, and he has the attuned Arkenhammer. We have yet to see what it is capable of in combat.





One quesiton is whether or not those three kinghts were promoted to warlord or not... if not then there's not much to worry about from them

They were the pick of the K.I.S.S. Even if not promoted, I still think they may fight quite well. But even if they don't, my entire argument is based on Jillian being overconfident and biting off more than she can chew. She is demonstrably capable of throwing herself from a superior position into mortal danger or captivity for no other reason than because it seems like a good idea to her at the time.

[Rutee]

Were the 19 Barbarian units her force?

[slayerx]

This is assuming that Stanley is readily killable, which may be a tall order. We know about Stanley that he is a terrible Overlord. But we also know that he won a LOT of battles back when he was merely a Warlord. Stanley might have very high bonuses indeed, and he has the attuned Arkenhammer. We have yet to see what it is capable of in combat.

Not really... yes he won many battles but that was mostly due to him finding the Arken Hammer... we can assume he's got enough strength to be worth promoting an infantry unit to warlord, but that's it... the comment that "he won many battles" was made right after pointing out "he found the arken hammer and used it to tame dwagons"... he didn't win battles by virtue of his personal strength but because he was the leader of powerful dwagons

Jillian herself is rather high level warlord who loves battle; she's very good at what she does... Even including Stanely's bonus and hammer i think it's pretty safe to say she can take him on... the real trouble is getting past the dwagons so she can get a shot at him; which is what the rest of the flight forces are meant to do, give her an opening



They were the pick of the K.I.S.S. Even if not promoted, I still think they may fight quite well. But even if they don't, my entire argument is based on Jillian being overconfident and biting off more than she can chew. She is demonstrably capable of throwing herself from a superior position into mortal danger or captivity for no other reason than because it seems like a good idea to her at the time.
The knights are 3 out of 18 total units... considering they are not to rare they are probably not too powerful... probably the best infantry Stanely's got, but i would highly doubt that they would be something as strong as a warlord or one of the archons. not to mention that if they are not warlords then they don't give the dwagons bonuses...

as for Jillian's judgement... first off, if Ansom and/or Vinnie back up her offensive on Stanely, then she will have their words to back her judgement; so it won't be just her judgement, but the judgement of others aswell... And Ansom and particularly Vinnie have fairly good judgement

Another thing to consider is exactly what was her judgement when she attacked those 5 dwagons... Recall that she was under a suggestion spell and has been captured many times... did she really attack thinking she could win, or did she attack knowing that if she lost she would be captured and would get to see Wanda again... likely, part of the suggestion spell had Jillian wanting to find a way to go back to Wanda... if that's the case, then her poor judgement before has no bearing now as she is no longer under the spell


Were the 19 Barbarian units her force?
There's a good chance of it... though it is possible that their might be a few other Barbarians mercs and they all got lump together... but i'd say that the 19 are probably Jillian and her gwiffens; frankly i do find it a bit odd that she doesn't happen to have any other Faq units with her and just seems to have the gwiffens... Perhaps she was unable to pay the upkeep and had to disband units and choose to keep the ones that don't talk and call her "highness" =p

Though it doesn't matter all that much Since Jillian said she would be taking all the air units with 26+ move regardless of whether or not they are her units... so she's gonna be taking anything the alliance might have to offer; like the archons for example... though i don't think the alliance has many flying units that can move that move that fast, other than maybe the Orlies; can't be too sure... however she could still mount infantry and warlord like units on her gwiffens

[Rutee]

If that's her force, then it depends on whether defending Warlords can force an attacking Warlord ot attack different stacks in the same hex. That is, if a Warlord that's defending an attacking stack can force the attackers to attack a particular stack; We've seen no mention of it previously... but we've also had almost no opportunity to witness it. (Only one attack on a hex with confirmed Warlords in it has been carried out thus far in the comic. Not counting Manfred)

I suspect Defender may get this option, or you wouldn't really have a siege. The enemy could just mass Flyers, then target the Chief Warlord/Overlord's hex on their turn. Either that or City rules are different.

[slayerx]

If that's her force, then it depends on whether defending Warlords can force an attacking Warlord ot attack different stacks in the same hex. That is, if a Warlord that's defending an attacking stack can force the attackers to attack a particular stack; We've seen no mention of it previously... but we've also had almost no opportunity to witness it. (Only one attack on a hex with confirmed Warlords in it has been carried out thus far in the comic. Not counting Manfred)

I suspect Defender may get this option, or you wouldn't really have a siege. The enemy could just mass Flyers, then target the Chief Warlord/Overlord's hex on their turn. Either that or City rules are different.

I don't think the defender can force the attacker to do such a thing... afterall the attacker themselves can selectively choose what units they want to attack. If the defender threw a stack at the attacker, the attacker could choose to ignore them and keep charging forward...

The balance is that the attacker can still be attacked by the stacks they ignore; just as Vinnie and Ansom would have been attacked by the dwagons if they chose to try and run through the hex with dwagons back when they fell into Parson's trap... And it could be that the defenders might deal more damage against running units since Vinnie was iffy about whether or not he and Ansom could pull off running through the dwagon hex without getting croaked (by choosing to run past, you are also choosing to not properly defend yourself)... during a seige, the flyers could all try to make a bee-line for the enemy overlord, however they would have to pass through stacks of archers and enemy fliers, all of whom will be able to deal lots of damage to the fliers as they pass through... and the enemy overlord is likely to be well protected and the fliers will likely have taken too much damage to put up a good fight; afterall, the overlord's stack will be the strongest stack and have the most bonuses... Generally, it would be better to take it slow so that you can hit the overlord with full force.

In Jillian's case, she would have the fliers and archons attack the dwagons and provide her an opening so that she can make an attack on Stanely and end the fight with him... Depending on how many units she brings will determine how hard it will be to grant her that opening... won't be easy but it will probably be doable...

however, one thing Jillian and Ansom don't realize is that she may be loosing the Archons soon

[Moechi_Vill]

I've thought a bit about Jillian's 'brilliant' plan to head Stanley off. Let's say she is right, that her superior knowledge of the region will allow her to intercept him. Good for her. Now she is facing not a flight of badly wounded dwagons led by Uncroaked, but rather a completely fresh group led by Stanley himself -- and incidentally the power of the Arkenhammer. Too, I doubt that she will be able to count on an Ansom rescue this time unless he decides to come along, which I admit is possible.

In short, I think she is being overconfident and careless as usual. She risks having her head handed to her again -- especially if Parson's maneuver with Charlie succeeds and Charlie withdraws his Archons or has them change Sides.

A fresh flight of heavy dragons.

[The Old Hack]

A fresh flight of heavy dragons.

Um, and the point of this comment is? :smallconfused:

[stm177]

It would be a big reversal if the archons defect to Stanley right before Jillian attacks. Both Stanley and Jillian would be surprised.

[raphfrk]

Not really... yes he won many battles but that was mostly due to him finding the Arken Hammer... we can assume he's got enough strength to be worth promoting an infantry unit to warlord, but that's it... the comment that "he won many battles" was made right after pointing out "he found the arken hammer and used it to tame dwagons"... he didn't win battles by virtue of his personal strength but because he was the leader of powerful dwagons


The battles seem to be mainly based on statistics anyway. Parson was able to give the exact probability of wipeout when they were about to be attacked.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0072.html

Maybe, the only benefit of a tactics once battle has started is target choice. When Jillian attacks the dragons, they tried to target her in order to eliminate her bonus.

This may require a warlord, stacks (both defense and attack) might attack random other units other units. This would mean that a warlord would help even if you intend to completely destroy an enemy stack as you could target important units in the other stack earlier.

A skilled commander would be one who knows what order to attack the enemy.

Otherwise, the only effect of a commander is their bonus which acts directly on the units under their command, and doesn't require any actual skill.

I wonder how a chief warlord gains experience. It looks like winning battles is the method for normal warlords. I wonder if the chief warlord gets a percentage of that experience (which would mean his strategy of selectively attacking siege means that he is slower to level up).

Alternatively, he may have to actually lead stacks into battle to level.

Presumably, his leadership bonus of 2 would increase as he leveled.

[Lamech]

Jillian herself is rather high level warlord who loves battle; she's very good at what she does... Even including Stanley's bonus and hammer i think it's pretty safe to say she can take him on... the real trouble is getting past the dwagons so she can get a shot at him; which is what the rest of the flight forces are meant to do, give her an opening
I don't think Jillian would have an easy time against Stanley. Stanley is a high level warlord for one thing. He will be riding on a super-powered dragon. Although the real problem is that hammer, if we look on the cast page we see its strengths are cracking things and heaving lighting. An un-attuned arkentool can one hit a dwagon, so I doubt Jillian will be able to survive a melee hit from the hammer. Better yet if she tries to jump on to the dwagon, Stanley can just fly away. Of course, this is assuming she (or her gwiffion) simply isn't toasted by lighting.

But hey, she might dodge the lighting and hit Stanley, before he launches a counter-attack, although it won't be easy.

[slayerx]

I don't think Jillian would have an easy time against Stanley. Stanley is a high level warlord for one thing. He will be riding on a super-powered dragon. Although the real problem is that hammer, if we look on the cast page we see its strengths are cracking things and heaving lighting. An un-attuned arkentool can one hit a dwagon, so I doubt Jillian will be able to survive a melee hit from the hammer. Better yet if she tries to jump on to the dwagon, Stanley can just fly away. Of course, this is assuming she (or her gwiffion) simply isn't toasted by lighting.

Well, one factor to take in is unit type... Yes Stanely is an Overlord/warlord, but he started out as a piker, which sounds like one of the weaker types of infantry (they are atleast cheap enough for GK to afford more of them than the stabber class)... Jillian on the otherhand, well we don't know what type of fighter she is, but i would assume that any kind of infantry fighter that uses a huge sword would have better stats than a piker; plus she's a royal so that gives her some bonus to her stats... I'd be quick to bet that Jillian's stats are probably higher

Also, where have you seen an unattuned arkentool one hit a dwagon?
If your talking about here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0065.html), then i would point out that just because we see Ansom hit it, does not mean it took "took no damage before and Ansom croaked it in one hit"; we see there a "finishing blow", not a "one-hit KO"...

[Rutee]

In Strategy games, your spear users tend to be strong on Cavalry, rather then strong on other infantry. Habitually anyway.


I don't think the defender can force the attacker to do such a thing... afterall the attacker themselves can selectively choose what units they want to attack. If the defender threw a stack at the attacker, the attacker could choose to ignore them and keep charging forward...

It might work out that way, it's true. Something just seems weird about needing siege if the defender can't force engagements somehow

[SteveMB]

I don't think the defender can force the attacker to do such a thing... afterall the attacker themselves can selectively choose what units they want to attack. If the defender threw a stack at the attacker, the attacker could choose to ignore them and keep charging forward...

We've seen that a warlord on the defending side can force un-led enemy attackers to engage certain units first ("Buy me some time to solo the blue" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0012.html)), and Parson's whole raiding plan was based on attacking warlords being able to pick targets. The one example we've seen with warlords on both sides ("Open the front door and let me at the warlord!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0075.html)) suggests that an attacking warlord can get through the "screen" placed by a defending warlord if the attack has enough support.

[Rutee]

We've seen that a warlord on the defending side can force un-led enemy attackers to engage certain units first ("Buy me some time to solo the blue" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0012.html)), and Parson's whole raiding plan was based on attacking warlords being able to pick targets. The one example we've seen with warlords on both sides ("Open the front door and let me at the warlord!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0075.html)) suggests that an attacking warlord can get through the "screen" placed by a defending warlord if the attack has enough support.
THe last of those links seems to be an indicator that the defending Stack can affect the attacking stack's options somewhat, even if both are lead by Warlords (Presumably, an unled defender gets no real options. See: Croaking the Siege).THe hard part is that it's difficult to understand Erfworld's mechanics from speech. Maybe that was just "Battle Chatter" and less then indicative of mechanics (Similar to any previous indication of the Loyalty Stat)

Have Erfworld posters considered the possibility that there is no actual set of game rules, just an appearance of them that will be abandoned according to Bellisario's Maxim when appropriate?