PDA

View Full Version : White Wolf goes to war



Grey Paladin
2008-03-14, 07:42 AM
www.white-wolf.com/graduation

Suddenly WotC don't seem so bad . . .

Mr. Friendly
2008-03-14, 07:45 AM
blurggh...

still...

I may send them my 3.5 PHB anyway...

I will have my 4e PHB. :smallbiggrin:

And then I can sell my brand new exalted book. Bwahahaahhahaaha!

Matthew
2008-03-14, 07:45 AM
Hee, hee. Very amusing.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-14, 07:46 AM
Boy. This is pathetic. They're getting desperate.

sun_tzu
2008-03-14, 08:10 AM
www.white-wolf.com/graduation

Suddenly WotC don't seem so bad . . .

Is that...as pathetic and petty as what I think it is?
If yes, my respect for WW has just plummeted.:smallfrown:

Kurald Galain
2008-03-14, 08:11 AM
That's a very stupid marketing stunt, imho.

Nevertheless, a new edition of Exalted? Sounds great! Maneuvers that actually do something that's cool, count me in :smallbiggrin:

SpikeFightwicky
2008-03-14, 08:13 AM
www.white-wolf.com/graduation

Suddenly WotC don't seem so bad . . .

I can't access their site at my current location. Can someone link the article or paraphrase it so I (and others?) can get the gist?

Green Bean
2008-03-14, 08:14 AM
Is that...as pathetic and petty as what I think it is?
If yes, my respect for WW has just plummeted.:smallfrown:

You forgot to add "not very bright". A PHB is actually $10 cheaper than the book they're giving away. :smallbiggrin:

Matthew
2008-03-14, 08:14 AM
Sure, here you go:



White Wolf is giving away free copies of the award-winning Exalted Second Edition! We’re offering you an opportunity to break out of the Dungeons & Dragons cycle, and graduate to a new kind of fantasy game. We’re confident that once you step up and experience Exalted’s world of epic fantasy and larger-than-life heroes, you won’t ever want to search another 10 x 10 room again.

Why play a rehash of the same old game, when you could be exploring Epic Fantasy Re-Imagined all summer?

Fans who want to graduate from D&D have until April 28th to sign up to receive their free Exalted book. Supplies are limited, though, and once all 2500 books have been ordered, that’s it.
The free Exalted core books will be available for pickup at your local store during Graduation Week (May 26th – 31st).

Exalted: Graduate Your Game will be held at participating hobby shops throughout the United States and Canada between March 21st and April 28th.

Anyone can sign up for Exalted: Graduate Your Game at a local participating hobby shop. If your local store is not participating, encourage them to get involved!

In order to become one of the 2500 graduates to receive a free copy of Exalted, we only ask that you send us your old copy of the Dungeons & Dragons Revised Third Edition (3.5) Players Guide.

Click the appropriate button below for more details.

Mr. Friendly
2008-03-14, 08:15 AM
I can't access their site at my current location. Can someone link the article or paraphrase it so I (and others?) can get the gist?

You send them your old 3.5 PHB and they send you a new Exalted.
:smallbiggrin:
The only way this plan can fail is if a new Edition of D&D were coming out soon......

Pauwel
2008-03-14, 08:15 AM
I can't access their site at my current location. Can someone link the article or paraphrase it so I (and others?) can get the gist?

They're offering people a free copy of Exalted 2nd Edition in return for a copy of D&D Player's Handbook 3.5. They're marketing it as "Graduate your game from D&D to Exalted".

EDIT: Damn ninjas.

Tengu
2008-03-14, 08:16 AM
Damn it, Canada and the US only! *snaps fingers*

And while this is a low blow, I have no doubts that Exalted will still be a better game than DND - even though fourth edition looks very promising.

EDIT: Ah, you need to give them the 3.5 handbook, which I don't have. I don't miss that much then, I thought they're giving these books away for free.

Sleet
2008-03-14, 08:17 AM
I can't access their site at my current location. Can someone link the article or paraphrase it so I (and others?) can get the gist?

They're giving away free copies of Exalted 2nd ed., with a side order of condescension, if you turn in your copy of the D&D 3.5 PHB.

Winterwind
2008-03-14, 08:20 AM
You send them your old 3.5 PHB and they send you a new Exalted.
:smallbiggrin:
The only way this plan can fail is if a new Edition of D&D were coming out soon......Well, in a sense, it might be actually more effective right now when a new edition is coming...
Because now, there might actually be a lot of players willing to give away their outdated D&D book (or more than there usually would be, anyway), thus spreading their own book amongst more people. If they are confident enough in the quality of their product, this might be a way to get more people in.

This said, this text sounds incredibly petty and arrogant. Ugh. :smallyuk:

kamikasei
2008-03-14, 08:24 AM
Genius! After all, obviously the only reason I don't play Exalted at the moment is because I feel too stupid for it, and need a "graduation" to give myself the self-esteem to deal with such a mighty system.

Nebo_
2008-03-14, 08:24 AM
I just sent that link to the president of the D&D club at uni. His response:

"Well, thats decided. We aren't buying any white wolf books this year."

banjo1985
2008-03-14, 08:24 AM
Poor marketing ploy and un-needed.

Exalted is a great system and beats D&D 3.5 round the head with a blunt instrument, it's far more fluid and dynamic. Unfortunately this marketing attempt seems like a bad idea and has the scent of sour grapes around it...

Pity really, as White Wolf make better role playing systems than WotC, and Exalted is actually really good. It's a shame they have to treat D&D gamers as idiots to try and prove it. I can't help but think it will come back to bite them on the arse.

Cubey
2008-03-14, 08:24 AM
First I thought they're just giving away free Exalted books to promote their system, which was kinda cool. But then I looked into their webpage in more detail, found all the "graduation from DnD to the more mature system" stuff and that you have to give away your 3.5 Ed handbook. Urgh. Exalted is a very fun system but that's disgusting. I feel morally obliged to illegally download 2nd Ed Exalted from the 'nets just to spite them now (I'm kidding. Probably.).

SpikeFightwicky
2008-03-14, 08:27 AM
Well, in a sense, it might be actually more effective right now when a new edition is coming...
Because now, there might actually be a lot of players willing to give away their outdated D&D book (or more than there usually would be, anyway), thus spreading their own book amongst more people. If they are confident enough in the quality of their product, this might be a way to get more people in.

This said, this text sounds incredibly petty and arrogant. Ugh. :smallyuk:

Definately agree. It sounds like an awesome idea in theory, but they really poured on the 'our product's better than theirs, and you're a wank if you don't switch'.

BTW, thx to all who gave me the gist!

Tengu
2008-03-14, 08:32 AM
Poor marketing ploy and un-needed.

Exalted is a great system and beats D&D 3.5 round the head with a blunt instrument, it's far more fluid and dynamic. Unfortunately this marketing attempt seems like a bad idea and has the scent of sour grapes around it...

Pity really, as White Wolf make better role playing systems than WotC, and Exalted is actually really good. It's a shame they have to treat D&D gamers as idiots to try and prove it. I can't help but think it will come back to bite them on the arse.

Yeah, Exalted will probably get some undeserved bad rep now and I can already see the swarms of blind Wizards/White Wolf fanatics yelling and throwing poo at each other. As if we needed a war like that.

Stiz
2008-03-14, 08:38 AM
That would work alot better with some of their other games. Scion is my favorite of their games.

Sleet
2008-03-14, 08:38 AM
Yeah, Exalted will probably get some undeserved bad rep now and I can already see the swarms of blind Wizards/White Wolf fanatics yelling and throwing poo at each other. As if we needed a war like that.

The shame of it is that I'd go get me a free Exalted book and give the game another try (I've played before and, honestly, wasn't terribly impressed), but I'm not giving up my 3.5 PHB.

If they'd checked the snark at the door and marketed this as "An edition change - great time to try a new system! Bring your PHB to your FLGS and get a free copy of Exalted!" it would have rocked - I'd do it. They could even stamp the inside cover with "I'm trying Exalted!" to make sure people don't re-use the same PHB. And the store managers don't have 100 pounds of PHB to dispose of.

Oslecamo
2008-03-14, 08:45 AM
And this is the main reason why WOTC is the leader of table top games.

They don't go around insulting the people who use their rival's products.

Oficially.

Anyway, I still don't get what all the rucus about exalted is. The rules are much loose, and you have more power than your average D&D character, but power doesn't automatically equals fun to most people. If I wanted to play godlike beings in D&D we would all start at level 20.

Gonna read the sites again to see if I can discover what all the ruckus is about.

And out of curiosity, for what do they want D&D PHBs?

Ascension
2008-03-14, 08:48 AM
Ugh. I understand that they're trying to sell... or, in this case, give away... their product, but I hate it when people treat a game system... any game system... like it's the be-all end-all of RPGs. I skimmed a copy of the Exalted core book with the intention of buying one, but changed my mind after I read the section about how you can upgrade your motivation for free if you're a new player and didn't select a suitably EPIC one.

Heh... I guess that's what they're trying to get us to do now. Upgrade our RPG because we didn't select a suitably EPIC one.

Rutee
2008-03-14, 08:56 AM
STOP BEING STUPID, WHITE WOLF. Better system or no, it's just /stupid/ to tell people that their game is bad if you're genuinely trying to convince them.


Ugh. I understand that they're trying to sell... or, in this case, give away... their product, but I hate it when people treat a game system... any game system... like it's the be-all end-all of RPGs. I skimmed a copy of the Exalted core book with the intention of buying one, but changed my mind after I read the section about how you can upgrade your motivation for free if you're a new player and didn't select a suitably EPIC one.

That's.. actually a /good/ move. Exalted is too large to stick to small motivations long, unless everyone has small motivations. They pretty much explain that right there.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-14, 09:12 AM
I just sent that link to the president of the D&D club at uni. His response:

Wouldn't the fact that it's a D&D club already mean that they're not buying any WW books? :smallwink:


(edit) does anyone remember the "John Romero is going to make you his b!tch" marketing campaign? This sounds similarly idiotic.

Iku Rex
2008-03-14, 09:14 AM
How dare these arrogant fiends show confidence in the quality of their product? And give away free stuff?!

http://i19.tinypic.com/62n48t5.jpg


I say we all do as God and Wizards of the Coast intended, and throw our 3.5 books away in favor of 4.0 like we threw our 3.0 books away in favor of 3.5. After all, WotC have been telling us how inferior 3.5 is and how stupid it would be to stick with it since they announced 4.0.

KIDS
2008-03-14, 09:19 AM
LOL, interesting marketing ploy. Though I suspect that the market will smash them but still good luck with that...

banjo1985
2008-03-14, 09:22 AM
How dare these arrogant fiends show confidence in the quality of their product? And give away free stuff?!

snip

I say we all do as God and Wizards of the Coast intended, and throw our 3.5 books away in favor of 4.0 like we threw our 3.0 books away in favor of 3.5. After all, WotC have been telling us how inferior 3.5 is and how stupid it would be to stick with it since they announced 4.0.


That's actually a good point. All these 3.5 books are going to have to go somewhere. And you can bet your backside WotC won't support 3.5 when their new baby gets released.

It'll be 4th edition all the way, until they decide 4.5 is much more sensible. Might as well get another system out of it, especially one as decent as Exalted.

Roderick_BR
2008-03-14, 09:24 AM
I always look too much into this kind of advertsiment... but are they shamelessly insulting D&D, and those that play it?
"break out of the Dungeons & Dragons cycle"?
"Why play a rehash of the same old game"?

Yeah. Insulting D&D to it's face, and claiming that players that enjoy D&D are... "immature" players ("graduate from D&D"?)
I think companies should refrain from making stupid comparisons between themselves and others companies (Mac vs PC anyone?) and indirectly call people that use the others products idiots.

And here I was thinking about trying Exalted after a few friends said it was a really entertaining game...

And what they are going to do with all these books anyway?

Well, they'll be screwing themselves up anyway... as Mr. Friendly said, 4E will be there, and since some people will stop playing 3.5, the book will be useless... solution? Send it away for a brand new game! :smallbiggrin:

Heh, it reminded me of some news I heard once, that in one of the World Cup's soccer championships, some non-soccer sport clubs were advertising things like "get out of town as soon as possible to escape the new soccer craze" or something.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-14, 09:31 AM
The sorriest thing, however, is the really small stock they have. 2500 units!

Y'see, if they hadn't had such an upnosed attitude in the announcement, this would have been a masterstroke, getting people to dump thousands (Possibly over 20,000, defintely OVER NINE THOUSAAAND!) of PHB's with minimal investment. As is, it's a buncha crap.

Winterwind
2008-03-14, 09:38 AM
(edit) does anyone remember the "John Romero is going to make you his b!tch" marketing campaign? This sounds similarly idiotic."Suck it up." :smalltongue:

Yeah, I remember it. And yes, this reminds me quite a bit of it.


Well, they'll be screwing themselves up anyway... as Mr. Friendly said, 4E will be there, and since some people will stop playing 3.5, the book will be useless... solution? Send it away for a brand new game! :smallbiggrin: I don't think that's screwing themselves up. I think that's pretty much what they are hoping for - that now that a new edition is coming up, more people will be willing to go for this deal, before the new edition actually arrives. This way, they will hook as many people as possible into their game (who will then, presumably, proceed to buy supplementary books or spread the news of this awesome new game to others, thus effectively increasing their overall sells and market-share).
Pity they made it in such a repulsive, condescending manner.

Worira
2008-03-14, 09:40 AM
So, I'm going to do this deal, then buy another PHB. I will be paying Wizards money to obtain White Wolf products.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-14, 09:56 AM
I wouldn't even bother unless you live near a really big store. With only 2500 units, they're either going to places in the middle of nowhere, or, more likely, to the really key and significant stores.

Indon
2008-03-14, 10:31 AM
Man, here I am with no less than TWO 3.5 PHB's to my name...

...but I play 1'st Edition Exalted exclusively.

As for the campaign itself, White Wolf's probably getting desperate. Exalted 2'nd edition is not a new product, and while I'm sure it's a pretty good product, they need something to get them attention comparable with what D&D has.

A publicity stunt like this might be the trick.

Ascension
2008-03-14, 10:42 AM
That's.. actually a /good/ move. Exalted is too large to stick to small motivations long, unless everyone has small motivations. They pretty much explain that right there.

Well, I guess I should've clarified my meaning... What I meant was that that was the point at which I realized that Exalted isn't right for me. I'm sure it's a good idea if you want to play the game, since from what I've seen and heard Exalted is all about the EPICNESS, but that's not what I want from an RPG.

It's fine to market Exalted as an EPIC alternative to D&D, and it couldn't possibly be worse than epic-level 3.5, but it's not right for those of us who shy away from the upper levels of play.

PnP Fan
2008-03-14, 11:00 AM
Y'know, this marketing campaign is a little more blatant than usual, but snob appeal has always been part of WW's marketing strategy. From the very first edition of Vampire, they've used slogans like "mature games for mature minds" or something similar. Similarly, when they were producing Black Dog material, they were aiming at an audience of mature readers ('cause y'know, putting offensive material in a bag labeled "adult" automatically makes it "mature", whatever).

Don't get me wrong, I've thoroughly enjoyed the material over the years because it's been well written and thoughtful, and generally a quality product. But snob appeal has always been part of their marketing. This shouldn't be much of a surprise.

Indon
2008-03-14, 11:35 AM
Well, I guess I should've clarified my meaning... What I meant was that that was the point at which I realized that Exalted isn't right for me. I'm sure it's a good idea if you want to play the game, since from what I've seen and heard Exalted is all about the EPICNESS, but that's not what I want from an RPG.

It's fine to market Exalted as an EPIC alternative to D&D, and it couldn't possibly be worse than epic-level 3.5, but it's not right for those of us who shy away from the upper levels of play.

You can play non-epic Exalted, though you need more than just the standard book (which is for Solar play - the most epic type of character).

Rutee
2008-03-14, 11:53 AM
Well, I guess I should've clarified my meaning... What I meant was that that was the point at which I realized that Exalted isn't right for me. I'm sure it's a good idea if you want to play the game, since from what I've seen and heard Exalted is all about the EPICNESS, but that's not what I want from an RPG.

It's fine to market Exalted as an EPIC alternative to D&D, and it couldn't possibly be worse than epic-level 3.5, but it's not right for those of us who shy away from the upper levels of play.

Actually, if you play DnD outside of.. probably the 1-8 range, Exalted still does interesting play. It's just that the Dragonblooded are probably at minimum level 10 or so, in comparison. (Have to compare to ToB though, for physical classes, since their melee can /do things/ besides iterative attacks) Dragonblooded can also get by with smaller motivations (Or they can use the same epic ones, but with a higher chance to fail) Their heroic mortals (Which are comparable to the first 5 levels or so of DnD) aren't any more interesting then a DnD character is at that level though.

And no, Epic Level DnD isn't. It's high Attack Bonus, high save, high Hit Point, sure, but if you're not a caster, you're /still/ not really very epic in actual capability.


Similarly, when they were producing Black Dog material, they were aiming at an audience of mature readers ('cause y'know, putting offensive material in a bag labeled "adult" automatically makes it "mature", whatever).
Oi, don't remind me. I still say their marketing department is run by monkeys.

Oslecamo
2008-03-14, 02:31 PM
And no, Epic Level DnD isn't. It's high Attack Bonus, high save, high Hit Point, sure, but if you're not a caster, you're /still/ not really very epic in actual capability.



Ironically, save or die becomes worthless in epic D&D because everybody has monstruous saves and immunity to almost all the dirty tricks, so the best strategy is actually to try to cause as much damage as possible, be it with spells or bashing stuff with something pointy.

Go to the CO forums to see some crazy melee builds by level 20, like throwing objects the size of small planets against your oponent whitout need of magic.

Crowheart
2008-03-14, 02:31 PM
Gah. I shouldn't find this so offensive and yet I do. Normally stuff like this doesn't bother me, but D&D is such a large part of my life it feels like they are directly attacking me.

A company's attitude has never influenced my gaming before until now. I won't ever even look at Exalted 2Ed now. I won't be able to without feeling insulted. Kinda sad, actually. :smallfrown:

Morty
2008-03-14, 02:32 PM
I still say their marketing department is run by monkeys.

So, not that different from WoTC after all.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-14, 02:33 PM
Actually, if you play DnD outside of.. probably the 1-8 range, Exalted still does interesting play. It's just that the Dragonblooded are probably at minimum level 10 or so, in comparison. (Have to compare to ToB though, for physical classes, since their melee can /do things/ besides iterative attacks) Dragonblooded can also get by with smaller motivations (Or they can use the same epic ones, but with a higher chance to fail) Their heroic mortals (Which are comparable to the first 5 levels or so of DnD) aren't any more interesting then a DnD character is at that level though.

And no, Epic Level DnD isn't. It's high Attack Bonus, high save, high Hit Point, sure, but if you're not a caster, you're /still/ not really very epic in actual capability.

I'd also add that "epic" isn't really a question of capability anyway. The Odyssey is an epic, but it's not like Odysseus needed to be 21st level (hell he could probably have been fourth level with a decent Diplomancy build).


Oi, don't remind me. I still say their marketing department is run by monkeys.

Seventeen year old monkeys.

A year or two, I got into an argument with Justin Achilli in which he insisted that White Wolf wasn't remotely pretentious (partly, apparently, because White Wolf is an abstract corporate entity and therefore incapable of behaving, independently, in a pretentious manner) and that all of the "we're so superior" bull**** went out with "second edition vampire".

Several people then pointed out that the phrase "what some people call roll-playing" was in the goddamned core rulebook.

The depressing thing about this little scheme is that it would be a really good idea if they hadn't been such wankers about it. Instead of saying "Stop playing D&D and play a real game" they could have said "Hey guys, we're really excited about the release of D&D 4th edition, now you won't be needing your old rulebooks any more, send them to us and you can try our game for free, because our game is pretty cool as well."

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-14, 02:37 PM
How dare these arrogant fiends show confidence in the quality of their product? And give away free stuff?!


Because clearly, nothing says "I have confidence in the quality of my product, and believe that it stands on its own merits" like slagging off your biggest competitor just as they're about to do a big product launch.

Matthew
2008-03-14, 02:41 PM
The saddest part of all this is that White Wolf sold D20 products under their Sword & Sorcery label. In fact, they recently had Monte Cook write a (by all accounts dire) D20 version of WoD (or somesuch thing).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-14, 02:43 PM
Gods, not only are they behaving snobbily, they're masochists too! Doing a d20 version of your system is like stripping and hitting the streets while you loudly scream in your most seductive voice "Hit me! Hit me!"

Terraoblivion
2008-03-14, 02:51 PM
This reminds me why i don't like White Wolf very much as a company. The pretentiousness gets too much occassionally. And they are actually trying to sell a good product, but that the ad campaign just reminds people of everything bad about the company by doing everything bad about the company. Also it is just a nasty move more befitting of politicians than marketing divisions.

What is the most sad is that they might very well attract a bunch of pretentious teenagers with this. If it gets bad it might even give the game a reputation of VtM when it was at its worst. And really who wants to game with people attracted to that attitude?

GammaPaladin
2008-03-14, 02:55 PM
*shrugs*

Most companies insult other companies' products. It's kind of part of marketing in general to say "Our product is cool and our competitor's product sucks! Use ours and you'll be one of the cool people!"

The only thing that actually bothers me is that they're destroying the PHBs people turn in. I don't like wasteful actions like that.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-14, 03:01 PM
*shrugs*

Most companies insult other companies' products. It's kind of part of marketing in general to say "Our product is cool and our competitor's product sucks! Use ours and you'll be one of the cool people!"

Umm ... no they don't?

It is, in fact, universally considered to be really, really bad marketing to just flat out diss your competitors, because it makes you look like a big stupid crybaby.

Companies sometimes say "our product has this provable advantage over our competitor's product" but that's a very different thing. Even during the height of the Cola Wars, Pepsi never put out an add that just said "Coke Sucks". The closest thing I can think of to one company running down another recently is the PC vs Mac adds, but again they focused on the concrete advantages their product had over the competition (more stable, more secure, easier to make photo albums apparently). They didn't just get a guy to stand up and say "if u use a PC ur a retard."

Ascension
2008-03-14, 03:04 PM
The only thing that actually bothers me is that they're destroying the PHBs people turn in. I don't like wasteful actions like that.

Oh? That is pretty terrible. I read through the thing quickly enough I skipped over that little detail. I figured they'd at least donate them to thrift stores or hand them out to starving orphans or something. Think of the orphans! They shouldn't be good enough at CharOp to break the rules and they certainly need something escapist to help them forget their pitiful existence! (I kid, I kid... orphans, please don't kill me.)

wadledo
2008-03-14, 03:13 PM
I wonder if they'd exchange my RotW for the Lunar's handbook?:smallconfused:

horseboy
2008-03-14, 03:26 PM
:smalleek:
Wow...
I can't even blame Mark Rein-Hagen for that one. :smalleek:

Hey, did anybody check out the download section and see the Exalted: Graduate Your Game Diploma (http://download.white-wolf.com/download/download.php?file_id=951)?

Athaniar
2008-03-14, 03:26 PM
Too bad to see the creators of the Warcraft RPG to resort to this kind of "PR".

And what exactly are they going to do with those books? Pretend to be WotC and exchange them for Exalted books in order to start Geek War I?

This is madness!

Madness?

This! Is! GAMING!

horseboy
2008-03-14, 03:28 PM
This is madness!

Madness?

This! Is! GAMING!
I would have gone with THIS IS WHITE WOLF! But that's just my personal opinion of them. :smallwink:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-14, 03:28 PM
This! Is! Geek! market!

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-14, 03:30 PM
I would have gone with THIS IS WHITE WOLF! But that's just my personal opinion of them. :smallwink:

Yours and everybody else's who doesn't actively draw a paycheck from the company.

Crowheart
2008-03-14, 03:34 PM
Madness...? (http://www.lariaeditutti.org/karma/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/300.jpg)

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-14, 03:38 PM
Also, I've read that diploma. Boy, it goes far past pathetic. To make the suckitude clear, it names you "savant of spontaneous storytelling". That's so elitist, it's disgusting. With no offense to EvilElitest, maybe WW is learning from him :smallwink: .

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-14, 03:39 PM
Also, I've read that diploma. Boy, it goes far past pathetic. To make the suckitude clear, it names you "savant of spontaneous storytelling". That's so elitist, it's disgusting. With no offense to EvilElitest, maybe WW is learning from him :smallwink: .

Remember, though, White Wolf games aren't pretentious, because a game is an inanimate object, and an inanimate object cannot behave in a pretentious way.

Just ask Justin Achilli. He should know, he's a professional editor.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-14, 03:41 PM
Also, I've read that diploma. Boy, it goes far past pathetic. To make the suckitude clear, it names you "savant of spontaneous storytelling". That's so elitist, it's disgusting. With no offense to EvilElitest, maybe WW is learning from him :smallwink: .

You're killing me. That has to be a joke.

I thought Amber fans were the worst, but apparently it's the White Wolf staff that take the cake...

Ascension
2008-03-14, 03:43 PM
Remember, though, White Wolf games aren't pretentious, because a game is an inanimate object, and an inanimate object cannot behave in a pretentious way.

Just ask Justin Achilli. He should know, he's a professional editor.

Can we call the authors pretentious, then? I assume they're not inanimate...

UNLESS WHITE WOLF IS RUN BY COMPUTERS! :smalleek: THAT MUST BE IT! :smallwink:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-14, 03:46 PM
Quiet, citizen! Proceed to the nearest termination terminal, and have a nice day! And remember, the Computers wants you to be happy!

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-14, 03:50 PM
Can we call the authors pretentious, then? I assume they're not inanimate...

UNLESS WHITE WOLF IS RUN BY COMPUTERS! :smalleek: THAT MUST BE IT! :smallwink:

We can't call the authors pretentious, because they are not "pretending" to be anything, and because there is a photograph of one of them with a fish in his mouth.

I am not making this up.

Ascension
2008-03-14, 03:54 PM
We can't call the authors pretentious, because they are not "pretending" to be anything, and because there is a photograph of one of them with a fish in his mouth.

I am not making this up.

At the risk of invoking the wrath of those who think that using the word makes RPing sound immature, what are they doing writing rules for an RPG if they aren't pretending to be anything? :smallwink:

Unless the company is ACTUALLY run by werewolves, mages, vampires, and UBERpeople! Oh no, they must THINK they're writing historical wargames that perfectly reflect reality while D&D is just making stuff up! That explains everything!

Indon
2008-03-14, 04:01 PM
Oh no, they must THINK they're writing historical wargames that perfectly reflect reality while D&D is just making stuff up! That explains everything!

Yeah, little do they know Wizards of the Coast is run by a Kobold named Pun-P...

*muffled sounds*

Ha, did I really say that? I was joking, of course.

Grey Paladin
2008-03-14, 04:10 PM
Yeah, little do they know Wizards of the Coast is run by a Kobold named Pun-P...

*muffled sounds*

Ha, did I really say that? I was joking, of course.

Gleemax is a joke
Gleemax is a card
Gleemax isn't real
Gleemax is your friend

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-14, 05:01 PM
Wow... I've already boycotted White Wolf for a few years no, but this surprises me to no end.

What am I going to do with my 3.5 PhB? Keep it and continue running 3.5 games. I have no intention of upgrading to 4.0, and this particular marketing ploy only enforces my refusal to purchase anything published by White Wolf.

Seriously, this is going to bite them hard. First off, there's a sploit: Buy a 3.5 PhB for cheap (any second-hand store) and trade it in, or hell, buy a new 3.5 PhB, still cheaper than Exalted 2.0, and trade it in. Second off, they're going to piss off the majority of the people who would legitmately take up this offer (i.e. those who are currently playing 3.5 and are considering a switch) by calling them morons, making the publicity campaign backfire.

I'd add in a political reference, but I don't feel like getting hit by the Mods, so let me just say I don't think I've seen a worse publicity campaign for a product.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-14, 05:03 PM
White Wolf Game Studio: Insulting Our Target Demographic Since 1989

EvilElitest
2008-03-14, 05:05 PM
www.white-wolf.com/graduation

Suddenly WotC don't seem so bad . . .

Can i just get the free copy and not lose my soul?
from
EE

Indon
2008-03-14, 05:07 PM
White Wolf Game Studio: Insulting Our Target Demographic Since 1989

Is that their target demographic? Or do they just that desperately need simple product recognition from the much wider market Wizards has been pursuing?

I tell you guys, this thread is what White Wolf wants from this stunt. Not 2500 new customers.

EvilElitest
2008-03-14, 05:07 PM
Well, in a sense, it might be actually more effective right now when a new edition is coming...
Because now, there might actually be a lot of players willing to give away their outdated D&D book (or more than there usually would be, anyway), thus spreading their own book amongst more people. If they are confident enough in the quality of their product, this might be a way to get more people in.

This said, this text sounds incredibly petty and arrogant. Ugh. :smallyuk:

Wait, the reason why i dislike what i've heard of 4E also mean i dislike Exalted. Eh?
from
EE

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-14, 05:08 PM
Is that their target demographic? Or do they just that desperately need simple product recognition from the much wider market Wizards has been pursuing?

I tell you guys, this thread is what White Wolf wants from this stunt. Not 2500 new customers.

No one wants negative publicity. Most everyone here knows about White Wolf, they just don't care. This is making a LOT of neutral people pissed off at them. Bad move.

Tura
2008-03-14, 05:09 PM
[conspiracy theory]
Maybe White Wolf is secretly working for WotC. Or maybe a top marketing exec. got paid under the table. The goal isn't to spread Exalted, ye poor naive little people, the goal is to force 2500 people to turn to 4E... Machiavelli would be so proud.
[/conspiracy theory]

Err... yes. That's what happens to my poor, fragile brain when it contemplates dumb ideas like that. I'll go inhale some oxygen now.

Rutee
2008-03-14, 05:16 PM
You're killing me. That has to be a joke.

I thought Amber fans were the worst, but apparently it's the White Wolf staff that take the cake...

Oh no. The indie market is /even worse/. White Wolf is just the worst big name.

Just Alex
2008-03-14, 05:19 PM
White Wolf Game Studio: Insulting Our Target Demographic Since 1989

I'm pretty sure that White Wolf's target demographic consists of 17 year old cutters.

Matthew
2008-03-14, 05:19 PM
No one wants negative publicity. Most everyone here knows about White Wolf, they just don't care. This is making a LOT of neutral people pissed off at them. Bad move.

Hmmn. I don't know, it seems like Indon has a good point. It has successfully created publicity for the product. I'm talking about WoD today when ordinarily it wouldn't likely have crossed my mind.

EvilElitest
2008-03-14, 05:20 PM
Also, I've read that diploma. Boy, it goes far past pathetic. To make the suckitude clear, it names you "savant of spontaneous storytelling". That's so elitist, it's disgusting. With no offense to EvilElitest, maybe WW is learning from him :smallwink: .
heh
The proper term your looking for to describe WW is Elitest, they don't have the qualities to make them elite.


No, if i was WW (or WOTC) marketer i'd be insulting an nasty, but i'd most likely target my own company just as much. Even i have more class than WW
from
EE

Rutee
2008-03-14, 05:21 PM
Hmmn. I don't know, it seems like Indon has a good point. It has successfully created publicity for the product. I'm talking about WoD today when ordinarily it wouldn't likely have crossed my mind.

"There's no such thing as negative publicity" is a marketing mantra.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-03-14, 05:24 PM
There is, when it is rep destroying, like the grand wrestling Take that, a sexual scandal for a politician, or munchkinism for a RP'er outside of SenZar.

Rutee
2008-03-14, 05:29 PM
There is, when it is rep destroying, like the grand wrestling Take that, a sexual scandal for a politician, or munchkinism for a RP'er outside of SenZar.

I didn't say it was intelligent or correct. I said it was a marketting mantra.

White Wolf must use Quizno's Marketers. And frankly, given DB society, **** jokes would have been /more/ appropriate then a retarded Take That.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-14, 05:32 PM
Oh no. The indie market is /even worse/. White Wolf is just the worst big name.

The indie market is like Darth Vader to White Wolf's Emperor Palpatine. It starts out with this happy fluffy idea of getting everybody to work together on a nice, non-judgmental theory of RPGs that will make everybody happy and get away from all that nasty pretentious stuff that White Wolf keep on about. Then they get seduced by the very powers they're fighting against and soon it's "it is impossible for people to enjoy playing conventional roleplaying games" and "running a White Wolf game for somebody is literally identical to sexually abusing them".

Matthew
2008-03-14, 05:34 PM
I didn't say it was intelligent or correct. I said it was a marketting mantra.

Indeed. Precisely why I avoided repeating it. :smallwink:

Talya
2008-03-14, 05:38 PM
How is this more free than if I just go download a pdf of it like everything else that's out there?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-03-14, 05:39 PM
Hmmn. I don't know, it seems like Indon has a good point. It has successfully created publicity for the product. I'm talking about WoD today when ordinarily it wouldn't likely have crossed my mind.

Yes, but are you thinking about it favorabally or negatively? Getting people to think BAD about your product is worse than have them not thinking about it at all.

Rutee
2008-03-14, 05:40 PM
Companies generally do not discuss the fact that you can pirate them. It's like a game store owner selling mod chips; All you do is lose customers by encourage piracy.

horseboy
2008-03-14, 05:46 PM
[conspiracy theory]
Maybe White Wolf is secretly working for WotC. Or maybe a top marketing exec. got paid under the table. The goal isn't to spread Exalted, ye poor naive little people, the goal is to force 2500 people to turn to 4E... Machiavelli would be so proud.
[/conspiracy theory.
Well, didn't WotC buy chunks of them right before they were in turn bought by Hasbro?

Tengu
2008-03-14, 05:50 PM
I do not know anything about the indie RPG market (apart from the fact that they keep their noses so high up above all other RPGs that you can count every single nosehair) and wish to learn more.

mostlyharmful
2008-03-14, 06:04 PM
Special. Very Special. Even in a cut throat industry this is low and pathetic. And while 'negative publicity' can be good when what you want is too get your name out there when you're one of the market leaders and you actively cut off your own nose to spite some guy across the street you can't help but seem a little desperate, a little boneheaded and a little assholic.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-14, 06:06 PM
A 2nd edition book in exchange for a 3.5 edition book? That sounds more like downgrading to me. :smallamused:

Now if they threw in some popcorn I might agree to an exchange of my AD&D PHB, but only because I have several. :smalltongue:

Matthew
2008-03-14, 06:07 PM
Yes, but are you thinking about it favorabally or negatively? Getting people to think BAD about your product is worse than have them not thinking about it at all.

To be honest, I thought it was pretty funny. I already knew White Wolf and their fan base felt this way, so I don't feel any more negative about them now than I did before. At least they're not telling me how much Exalted 1e sucked compared to Exalted 2e and laughing at the prospect that anyone would consider playing it as an alternative to their new edition (or maybe they do, I don't really know).

Tengu
2008-03-14, 06:12 PM
A 2nd edition book in exchange for a 3.5 edition book? That sounds more like downgrading to me. :smallamused:

Now if they threw in some popcorn I might agree to an exchange of my AD&D PHB, but only because I have several. :smalltongue:

If that wasn't so tongue-in-the-cheek it would be almost as snotty as the stance WW is presenting here.

DementedFellow
2008-03-14, 06:21 PM
I've heard nothing but good things about Exalted, and the fact a 2nd Edition is coming out makes me more intrigued.

I'd definitely consider it.

I don't care how condescending it sounded. If you look for tone in anything, you'll almost certainly find it. Which is a big reason why there is so much resistance to 4e; some people just see tone where there is little to none and it offends them. I should know, as I'm one of these people.

So yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. I just hope it is not some brooding campaign where you act wangsty and do nothing even though you have INCREDIBLE SUPERNATURAL POWERS.

What kind of a system gives you powers but says you can't use them without harsh repercussions?

In short, I'm intrigued and excited.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-14, 06:23 PM
Actually, I just thought of two things...

First, WOTC is doing the exact same thing (albeit in a less stupid fashion) with their campaign of "if you're going to be an elf and beat up on trolls, at least do it with friends in your basement, rather than in a MMORPG".

Second, the first law of marketing is that all publicity is good publicity.

horseboy
2008-03-14, 06:24 PM
It was the diploma that drove me away. I almost considered it, until I saw that.

Rutee
2008-03-14, 06:26 PM
First, WOTC is doing the exact same thing (albeit in a less stupid fashion) with their campaign of "if you're going to be an elf and beat up on trolls, at least do it with friends in your basement, rather than in a MMORPG".

Assuming you're correct..

WRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Seriously, where's the quote. I wanna confirm that. I don't want to think that every company needs monkey repellent.



So yeah, I'm really looking forward to it. I just hope it is not some brooding campaign where you act wangsty and do nothing even though you have INCREDIBLE SUPERNATURAL POWERS.
If you're not burning Essence, and you have a remote use in the situation, you're doing it wrong. :smalltongue:

Nah, Exalted has no repercussion whatsoever to using Charms, aside from the resource management aspect.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-14, 06:34 PM
It is, in fact, universally considered to be really, really bad marketing to just flat out diss your competitors, because it makes you look like a big stupid crybaby.
Really? I seem to recall a flame war between McDonalds and Burger King that became rather personal. Then again, maybe that did make both of them look like big stupid crybabies.

Where I live, such advertising isn't even allowed - that's why they compare everything to the universally-despised "Brand X". Not that that helps :smallwink:

Oh and yeah, the only thing that's worse than that diploma is that I'm sure there's some people out there who will be proud of having it...


WRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Seriously, where's the quote.
http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/29/antimmorpg-ads-from-.html

Terraoblivion
2008-03-14, 06:35 PM
At least unless it pisses someone off, Rutee. In general it is a bad idea to use a charm to deface any public building in Yu-Shan, celestial gods are rather keen on preserving their property values.

And i think it is worth noticing that it is not a new edition of their own game they are plugging here, DementedFellow. In fact they are advertising an edition of the game that was released two years ago and where they have already published around half the books they are planning for it. Instead they are just trying to cash in on people who want to stop playing 3.5 now that 4E is being released.

DementedFellow
2008-03-14, 06:44 PM
Oh well, I never said I played it. I just said I've heard nothing but good things and this intrigued me more.

Still, it doesn't sway me. I wouldn't ever exchange a book for a new system I've never heard of, but yeah, I would definitely consider a purchase the next time I am in the gaming store.

With the arrival of 4e, there is definitely a market to be made. There are a lot of fans of 3.5 and so there is some hard feelings. I can hardly blame WW for knowing their target audience (tone aside). They know a number of people are having sour grapes about 4e and by extension WotC, so I don't think they were too far off the mark when they made this.

With the arrival of 4e, it's encouraged me to play other systems since the type of gameplay in 4e has been promised to be decidedly different than 3.x, so why not try Exalted?

Also, I never thought I would be defending White Wolf. Dear God what have I done?

Rutee
2008-03-14, 06:48 PM
Really? I seem to recall a flame war between McDonalds and Burger King that became rather personal. Then again, maybe that did make both of them look like big stupid crybabies.
Burger King is slamming /everyone/ right now. Their latest commercial had the guys in hamburger suits go to a Wendy's and say "Baked Potatoes? What are we, in Russia!?"

I like Baked Potatoes..


http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/29/antimmorpg-ads-from-.html
It's not.. /as/ bad... but good good. -.-



With the arrival of 4e, it's encouraged me to play other systems since the type of gameplay in 4e has been promised to be decidedly different than 3.x, so why not try Exalted?
What do you like about 3.X? Legitimate question. Exalted may or may not be to your tastes. There's a thread on someone asking what i'ts about, I'll find it in a sec.

Edit: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74843


At least unless it pisses someone off, Rutee. In general it is a bad idea to use a charm to deface any public building in Yu-Shan, celestial gods are rather keen on preserving their property values.
I stand corrected. Using Charms has no long term repercussions except when you succeed in ticking someone off :smallyuk:

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-14, 06:50 PM
If that wasn't so tongue-in-the-cheek it would be almost as snotty as the stance WW is presenting here.

That was sort of my point. :smallwink:

Truth be told, the only think I could do was to show my ignorance, since I know precious little about the system. Exalted may be vastly superior to D&D for all I know.

I do not really mind their attitude, but the execution is pathetic. If you go after your competitor like that in a market for experience goods the least you can do is to execute the attack in an entertaining fashion and possibly throw in one or two jokes at your own expense just to signal that you are not pompous and self-righteous.

DementedFellow
2008-03-14, 06:56 PM
In all honesty, Rutee, the PrCs are a big selling point to me. I like the idea that specialization in a certain field will yield greater rewards and neato powers. And the fluff behind some of those powers is just neat to me. I like how two people could have the same base class and could come up with vastly different characters and still not have it hurt the game.

So I guess I like the specialization aspect of it. It may sound trite, but I can get a supplement and find ideas upon ideas for a PrC in almost any given campaign. Granted some will be harder than others like Sand Shaper in the middle of a grassy field, but even that isn't too much of a stretch.

Rutee
2008-03-14, 06:59 PM
....Okay, I don't think I have a good frame of reference for you then. I'll see if there's a free preview of Exalted somewhere; I have one for Scion even after buying the book, so there may be one for Exalted.

Edit: http://www.white-wolf.com/downloads.php?category_id=20 There we are. I have nfc how the adventure is though, unfortunately...

GammaPaladin
2008-03-14, 07:05 PM
Umm ... no they don't?

It is, in fact, universally considered to be really, really bad marketing to just flat out diss your competitors, because it makes you look like a big stupid crybaby.

Companies sometimes say "our product has this provable advantage over our competitor's product" but that's a very different thing. Even during the height of the Cola Wars, Pepsi never put out an add that just said "Coke Sucks". The closest thing I can think of to one company running down another recently is the PC vs Mac adds, but again they focused on the concrete advantages their product had over the competition (more stable, more secure, easier to make photo albums apparently). They didn't just get a guy to stand up and say "if u use a PC ur a retard."
Coke and Pepsi have most certainly implied that the other product was uncool, or bad, for decades. Unless you're completely forgetting the commercial where the coke and pepsi shipments were mixed up, and the fraternity boys started acting like old geezers and the seniors at the retirement home were running and jumping and playing sports.

And they're hardly the only examples. The whole Joe Isuzu campaign was pure insults to all the other car manufacturers, I could go on naming famous campaigns that implied just as strongly as this one that their competitors made lousy products, or were bad people.

DementedFellow
2008-03-14, 07:06 PM
Thank you Rutee for finding that link really fast. After reading the first few posts, Exalted does actually sound fun. Soon I'll be DMing a campaign that will feature a city where the living and the undead live in peaceful harmony and the world is being attacked by aliens (mind-flayers). This Exalted sounds like it has a little bit of everything for everyone.

I guess I'll be buying a book in the next couple of weeks. :smallsmile:

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-14, 07:09 PM
Coke and Pepsi have most certainly implied that the other product was uncool, or bad, for decades. Unless you're completely forgetting the commercial where the coke and pepsi shipments were mixed up, and the fraternity boys started acting like old geezers and the seniors at the retirement home were running and jumping and playing sports.

I don't think that aired over here.


And they're hardly the only examples. The whole Joe Isuzu campaign was pure insults to all the other car manufacturers, I could go on naming famous campaigns that implied just as strongly as this one that their competitors made lousy products, or were bad people.

There's an important difference between "strongly implying" something and just out and out saying "people who play our game are smarter than people who play D&D."

The former can work if you do it exactly right. The latter makes you sound like the aforesaid big, stupid, crybaby.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-14, 07:39 PM
There's no difference between what WW is doing and what Coke, Pepsi, Burger King, etc have done and will continue to do basically forever. They're all implications. White Wolf hasn't come any closer to explicitly saying anything than any of the other aforementioned companies have, and do consistently.

Talya
2008-03-14, 07:41 PM
Honestly, even if I didn't get my gaming books in PDF form at a 100% discount, I'd still download PDFs of them all. It's so much more convenient on my laptop than on 300 lbs of paper.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-14, 07:41 PM
There's no difference between what WW is doing and what Coke, Pepsi, Burger King, etc have done and will continue to do basically forever. They're all implications. White Wolf hasn't come any closer to explicitly saying anything than any of the other aforementioned companies have, and do consistently.

In which case advertising in America is very different to advertising in the UK. Over here if you tried anything like that you'd be laughed out of business.

Rutee
2008-03-14, 07:43 PM
Honestly, even if I didn't get my gaming books in PDF form at a 100% discount, I'd still download PDFs of them all. It's so much more convenient on my laptop than on 300 lbs of paper.

Broadcasting piracy of Tabletop RPG material on a forum run by someone who sells Tabletop RPG material is /slightly/ unkosher. Seriously, not a good idea.

EvilElitest
2008-03-14, 07:46 PM
Honestly, even if I didn't get my gaming books in PDF form at a 100% discount, I'd still download PDFs of them all. It's so much more convenient on my laptop than on 300 lbs of paper.

how do you get a 100% discount? How


Also DementedFellow, i don't think this WW attempt is any good actually. Not everyone who dislikes 4E will like Exalted, some dislike it for the same reasons. I don't think the potential customers (2500 at most) will out weigh the negative publicity.
from
EE
edit
Rutee, i think she is voicing an option of what would make her down load that, not promoting piracy.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-14, 07:46 PM
I agree that PDFs are better though. DriveThroughRpg FTW ;)

Bag_of_Holding
2008-03-14, 07:47 PM
This is so funny my tummy hurts. :smallannoyed:

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-14, 07:49 PM
ITT:NERD RAAAAAAAAAAGE!

Srsly though, I've never been a great fan of the advertising standards of either, to be honest.

Rutee
2008-03-14, 07:52 PM
Rutee, i think she is voicing an option of what would make her down load that, not promoting piracy.

That's what a 100% discount on RPG books, which you have on PDF, is. I should know. You can't really download them for free on DTRPG, period.

Edit: Illiterate, I just noticed the FALCON... SAGE. Best Avatar ever.

Indon
2008-03-14, 07:52 PM
Honestly, even if I didn't get my gaming books in PDF form at a 100% discount, I'd still download PDFs of them all. It's so much more convenient on my laptop than on 300 lbs of paper.

I'll assume you're referring to a perfectly legitimate E-purchasing system I'm unaware of and make a tangential comment:

Personally, I'm a big fan of physical books. I like being able to flip through things more than I like PDF's, even with bookmarks, to the point where I only let people play Exalted types I have physical books for (which means, since I play 1'st edition Exalted, nobody's ever playing an Abyssal or Lunar :smallfrown:)

Om
2008-03-14, 07:54 PM
In which case advertising in America is very different to advertising in the UK. Over here if you tried anything like that you'd be laughed out of business.Ryanair. That is all

horseboy
2008-03-14, 08:00 PM
Physical books are great for when you're sitting on the can. Thumb drives of pdfs are great for when you're heading over to a buddy's house.

Terraoblivion
2008-03-14, 08:05 PM
The rather ill-thought out reason for stating the obvious of not annoying people with your charm use is that it is the exact same reason vampires in VtM should not go around flashing their disciplines. Using a discipline doesn't cause you any direct harm other than draining a bit of your resources and in many cases ticking somebody off. So it isn't really a contrast between Exalted and WoD. I should have said it in a way that wasn't just stating the obvious.

Rutee
2008-03-14, 08:12 PM
Hee. I think he was more worried about the part where using Disciplines in Vampire shortens the time until your next emo fest guilt trip feeding, but I prolly just misread him anyway.

Terraoblivion
2008-03-14, 08:18 PM
Probably. The point of my previous post was that i grew somewhat worried that i might have insulted you by stating the obvious in the form of a correction to your previous explanation of charms.

Rutee
2008-03-14, 08:20 PM
Not at all. I was more bemused not thinking to mention it. Sorry for worrying ya >.>

Talya
2008-03-14, 09:37 PM
Broadcasting piracy

Hey, i've never done anything illegal!

At least, nothing illegal in this country.

Rutee
2008-03-14, 09:58 PM
Canada is a member/signatory of at least 3 different Copyright enforcement treaties/organizations. I'm willing to bet that it /is/ in fact illegal in your country, provided that the works in question are in fact copyrighted. Which most of them are.

While I won't dig through legalese for the sole purpose of an internetz argument, if /you/ didn't, and don't have at least a passable understanding of copyright law, I suggest you stop assuming you're in the legal right.

Edit: I just checked a teeny bit further; Canada legally honors our copyright claims. Canada seems even lighter about actual enforcement then the US, so you're /safe/, but it's /illegal/.

Sleet
2008-03-14, 10:16 PM
Second, the first law of marketing is that all publicity is good publicity.

And it's wrong. :smallsmile:

DementedFellow
2008-03-14, 10:19 PM
I know that not everyone who has sour grapes over 4e will flock to Exalted, I was just saying that they were making themselves known as the "sour grapes" main alternative.

I must be sick or something, a WW game that looks good to me...:smallwink:

Rutee
2008-03-14, 10:23 PM
I know that not everyone who has sour grapes over 4e will flock to Exalted, I was just saying that they were making themselves known as the "sour grapes" main alternative.

I must be sick or something, a WW game that looks good to me...:smallwink:

The games themselves are pretty good. Just that, you know, the setting tone (As in, the whoamg darkness) of the WoD can get depressive. I just don't bother with it. If you're Cursed with Awesome, you might as well use it :smallbiggrin:

EvilElitest
2008-03-14, 10:43 PM
Hey, i've never done anything illegal!

At least, nothing illegal in this country.

how does this work out then?
from
EE

Terraoblivion
2008-03-14, 10:43 PM
Exalted is a great game, Demented Fellow so nothing strange about it looking good. The only real weakness to it is that it might be too over the top for some people, but the setting is surprisingly solid and very different from everything else i have ever seen. Really it is worth at least trying. Of course i have to say this seeing as how it is my famous system and all, but you could do much worse than trying it. And if solars are too epic for you there are always Dragonblooded to play, they get to be all kinds of awesome without it being quite as extreme as solars.

WoD, the most famous franchise WW has is a more complex beast to recommend or not recommend. NWoD in particular lives and dies with its setting. It has a simple system that is quite easy to learn and use, but isn't terribly detailed. The setting, however, can be quite angsty, especially if you play Promethean. It has also got a lot of interesting elements, though, and is much more flexible than the metaplot ridden mess of OWoD. It gives you a great deal of leeway for setting the tone for the different kinds of supernatural beings, though there are tendencies such as mages on the whole being more inquisitive and dynamic than vampires.

OWoD on the other hand isn't really something i would recommend anybody to play. Chances are at least one player know enough of the metaplot to work on completely different assumptions of the setting to everybody else. And if that is not enough many parts of the system are either immensely unwieldy or flat out broken. These problems are more pronounced in Vampire simply due to the popularity of that game and the amount of poorly coordinated products released for it.

And i seem to have been rambling about the virtues and lack of such in the WW games i know. In any case i really think you should give Exalted a try DementedFellow, it is just that good a game.

Rutee
2008-03-14, 10:48 PM
how does this work out then?
from
EE

It probably doesn't, unless she has a flurry of links to prove it. Preferably to the specifics of the bilateral copyright treaty the US and Canada have.

EvilElitest
2008-03-14, 10:52 PM
It probably doesn't, unless she has a flurry of links to prove it.

Maybe she has connections? I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but .....



Anyways, Exalted is a pretty good game, you just have to make sure that Super Epic God like Heros are your thing however.
from
EE

SofS
2008-03-15, 03:42 AM
There's been some confusion about this in our country due to the private copying levy. Basically, most of our blank media gets taxed for the purpose of compensating copyright holders for the effects of piracy. This has led to the notion that we're essentially paying for it all anyway, whether or not we copy stuff about, and that we thus have a claim to it. I'm no lawyer, but I think there's a certain merit to that argument, though it's far from being totally right; regardless, I don't think it's ever stood up in court. If they go through with that weird plan to tax internet usage for the same purpose, it'll actually be a much stronger argument, in my opinion. This is all pretty much theoretical, as very few people in Canada who are not politicians or attached to foreign companies have seemed to care one way or the other. Could be why there seems to be a grudge against us regarding this issue on the parts of some movie studios and the like.

As to the White Wolf thing: Hunt's move all the way.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-15, 04:48 AM
The games themselves are pretty good. Just that, you know, the setting tone (As in, the whoamg darkness) of the WoD can get depressive. I just don't bother with it. If you're Cursed with Awesome, you might as well use it :smallbiggrin:
This is why Exalted is good... At least 1E Exalted. Dropped the angst. Unless you had a RBDM who was so married to the angst in WoD that he extrapolated the limit break stuff to turn it into an angsty WoD game. It wasn't written that way though.

I can't speak for 2E, as I've never played it.

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-15, 05:04 AM
Ah, what a brillant plan. Insult potential customers and an entire style of play.

Of course, one could argue that this is generally their entire marketing plan, and it isn't actually aimed at D&D people at all but rather their own base, which is stereotypically quite elitist.

Which has the side effect of me not wanting to purchase their products or play with people who purchase their products and feel this is a good attitude to have.

I mean, I'm all about elitism, but this is a really dumb ploy as neither is emprically better than the other.


Yeah, Exalted will probably get some undeserved bad rep now and I can already see the swarms of blind Wizards/White Wolf fanatics yelling and throwing poo at each other. As if we needed a war like that.

I dunno if it is ENTIRELY undeserved; the stereotype of WW players exists for a reason, and this sort of marketing is part of the reason that they are the way they are (or perhaps vice-versa). These are the same people who wear the t-shirts "You laugh because we're different. We laugh because you're all the same" then have to stand around looking uncomfortable because their three friends all bought the exact same t-shirt.

When you market to a specific audience, you're likely to end up with that audience overwhelmingly represented, and even if you don't, your own player base may be your own worst enemy; the reason D&D and Magic are unpopular among women is not just because they're aimed towards young men, as nowadays that focus has changed to "young people", but rather because their own player base drives away female players. Likewise with WW players.

Are all WW players this way? Obviously not, just as many females do play D&D and Magic. But the stereotype does have some truth to it, and it appears WW, unlike WotC, is doing little to fix it and everything to encourage it.


How dare these arrogant fiends show confidence in the quality of their product? And give away free stuff?!

They insulted a huge audience and an entire playstyle which many people enjoy. People LOVE dungeon crawls, including people who own WW products. Several of my friends at school played both.

Thing is, D&D does the dungeon crawl very well, and it is the most popular RPG. Many people insult this, but the real question is WHY is the dungeon crawl so much fun? This should be examined, not dismissed.

Interestingly Alternity points out that encounter/adventure design can follow dungeon design in some ways, but rather than having rooms and corridors, instead you have encounters and reactions. If you do certain things, maybe the adventure goes one way, maybe another. This flexibility is part of what makes dungeon crawls fun, and by having a series of stringed-together encounters, it does feel like an adventure and often feels somewhat similarly to a dungeon crawl, despite the lack of walls, rooms, and corridors.


"Why play a rehash of the same old game"?

Even more ironic, given that I've played both forms of Vampire (the old one and the new one), and found the difference between 2e and 3e much larger than that between the two different versions of Vampire. Kind of hard to criticize rehashing when your own company actually "rehashes" more than the one you're insulting, at least as far as I can tell.

Not that that is necessarily a bad thing, mind you; if you get a good system, it is fine to stick with it, and I think their system is pretty good at doing what they want it to do. That said, it doesn't do much else, which I think eternally keeps their market where it is. Of course, if you're making good enough money on that small market and serving it well, that's fine, but you aren't going to go anywhere else.


What is the most sad is that they might very well attract a bunch of pretentious teenagers with this. If it gets bad it might even give the game a reputation of VtM when it was at its worst. And really who wants to game with people attracted to that attitude?

The people with that attitude, AKA 16 year old goths.


Most companies insult other companies' products. It's kind of part of marketing in general to say "Our product is cool and our competitor's product sucks! Use ours and you'll be one of the cool people!"

The problem is not that they're insulting other companies' products; they're insulting other companies' customers. This can be a good tactic (see, for instance, some Apple marketing campaigns) but it can easily backfire (see, for instance, some Apple marketing campaigns).


Hmmn. I don't know, it seems like Indon has a good point. It has successfully created publicity for the product. I'm talking about WoD today when ordinarily it wouldn't likely have crossed my mind.

Some people say "any publicity is good publicity". Other people say "tell that to the Pinto". I have seen people driving many old, bad cars, but I don't think I've ever seen anyone drive a Pinto.

Its probably even worse in the gaming industry, because you've got to play it with other people, and who wants to play a game with the sort of people who think that is a good ad?


First, WOTC is doing the exact same thing (albeit in a less stupid fashion) with their campaign of "if you're going to be an elf and beat up on trolls, at least do it with friends in your basement, rather than in a MMORPG".

IIRC it is actually "If you're going to sit in your basement pretending to be an elf, you should at least have some friends over to help."

But it isn't an anti-MMORPG ad at all. It doesn't say "MMORPGs suck!" It says "You like MMORPGs, but you'll like this similar product more!" This is actually a great marketing tactic; rather than saying "You suck" or "your chosen product sucks", you instead say "Here, try my similar but superior product!"

It is also funny. This isn't funny at all, it comes off like a 16 year old goth. Making fun of yourself is also great marketing, as long as you do it in a way that your target audience will enjoy and comisserate with and laugh at.


I agree that PDFs are better though.

I actually find PDFs to be terribly inconvenient; I much prefer actual books. Plus, if my hard drive dies, I still have all my books.

Incidentally, this is part of why I never would purchase a PDF document.


Edit: I just checked a teeny bit further; Canada legally honors our copyright claims. Canada seems even lighter about actual enforcement then the US, so you're /safe/, but it's /illegal/.

Except if WotC sued you (and they HAVE done so, see the case of Rancored Elf, a Canadian who had no respect for WotC's IP rights) you'd die just as horribly.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-15, 05:31 AM
I mean, I'm all about elitism, but this is a really dumb ploy as neither is emprically better than the other.


Isn't that what most elitism is about? I don't think I've ever met an elitist who could actually be considered elite.

Reinboom
2008-03-15, 05:45 AM
This tactic has been used in the past, but with microcomputer systems.
I wonder how decent a condition the PHB has to be in... I could probably pick up a badly torn up PHB softcover for like... 5$... if...


Except if WotC sued you (and they HAVE done so, see the case of Rancored Elf, a Canadian who had no respect for WotC's IP rights) you'd die just as horribly.

1) Rancored Elf was doing something very public, and obvious.
2) What exactly occurred wasn't announced, however, all information leads that it was settled without an actual lawsuit. Just a very strict agreement (including nondisclosure, which means only WotC's lawyers and R_E knows of this) and a bit of settlement cash.

Rancored Elf was handling information releases about cards that came directly from employees of WotC. More or less, insiders were breaking their nondisclosure agreements.

At least, this is the information I have perceived from following the situation.


The case has a bit more publicity and severity than that of which is being an end receiver of PDFs. Distribution thereof, however, once again is major.


Either way, it doesn't make it any less illegal.



---

Now, I wonder if Wizards can attack white wolf at all by directly using the dungeons and dragons name....

Theodoxus
2008-03-15, 06:29 AM
Honestly, even if I didn't get my gaming books in PDF form at a 100% discount, I'd still download PDFs of them all. It's so much more convenient on my laptop than on 300 lbs of paper.

QFT

TBH, the advert made me curious enough to check out the core book - presumably the one they're giving away. And like all things WW, its chock full of silly stories, cartoons and 'fluff' that I didn't even get to the character creation after an hour of reading. If that means it's more intelligent, I'd rather be stupid.

I buy RP books for meat, not lemon merraigne. I like the 3.5 PHB because it give 2 pages of intro and then BAM! here's how to make a character. Straight forward and honest.

Don't get me wrong, the Exalted Core Rules would make an excellent coffee table book, or an even better bathroom read for potty time. But for crunchy goodness, it sticks in the teeth like bad taffy.

Not for me, I guess.

Dan_Hemmens
2008-03-15, 06:40 AM
TBH, the advert made me curious enough to check out the core book - presumably the one they're giving away. And like all things WW, its chock full of silly stories, cartoons and 'fluff' that I didn't even get to the character creation after an hour of reading. If that means it's more intelligent, I'd rather be stupid.

There's a genuine trend you can see in RPG books like that. White Wolf very deliberately put the setting information at the front to highlight the fact that this is a role playing game not a roll playing game, and that it's all about the story (which they clearly define as "their prewritten game world") not about the rules (which are, of course, the things you use to create your actual character).


I buy RP books for meat, not lemon merraigne. I like the 3.5 PHB because it give 2 pages of intro and then BAM! here's how to make a character. Straight forward and honest.

Don't get me wrong, the Exalted Core Rules would make an excellent coffee table book, or an even better bathroom read for potty time. But for crunchy goodness, it sticks in the teeth like bad taffy.

Not for me, I guess.

I do almost judge RPG books by pretty much this standard these days actually. Does it open with setting material? Then it's probably sub-White-Wolf trash that thinks its hack game designers are smarter and more creative than me. Does it open with rules I can actually use? Then I might actually buy it.

Sorry, this whole thing has reminded me why I hate White Wolf so very, very much.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-15, 06:58 AM
I do almost judge RPG books by pretty much this standard these days actually. Does it open with setting material? Then it's probably sub-White-Wolf trash that thinks its hack game designers are smarter and more creative than me. Does it open with rules I can actually use? Then I might actually buy it.

So you believe your smarts and creativity allow you to come up with a better story than any RPG writer, but not come up with better rules than any RPG designer?

GammaPaladin
2008-03-15, 06:59 AM
People LOVE dungeon crawls
O.O

Really?

I can't stand them. I don't run them. I like D&D, that doesn't mean I like dungeon crawls. I need a campaign with a plot and intrigue.


he problem is not that they're insulting other companies' products; they're insulting other companies' customers. This can be a good tactic (see, for instance, some Apple marketing campaigns) but it can easily backfire (see, for instance, some Apple marketing campaigns).
I don't see this as nearly insulting as the "Hi, I'm a Mac." "And I'm a PC!" campaign. I don't think they're even comparable, to be honest. They're stating that one style of play is inferior to another, sure, but I don't think it's anything to get all nerd ragey about.

Although that could have something to do with the fact that I can't stand dungeon crawls ;)

But seriously, I don't see this as a stab at the customers. It's much more a skewering of the D&D system. It's not nearly as insulting to their competitor's userbase as the Mac commercials are.


I actually find PDFs to be terribly inconvenient; I much prefer actual books. Plus, if my hard drive dies, I still have all my books.

Incidentally, this is part of why I never would purchase a PDF document.
Really?

I'm sorry, but seriously?

You honestly find unsearchable hardcopy documents, many of which don't even have an index in the back, more convenient than PDF?

I'd die if I had to use all hardcopy material... How the heck do you ever find that obscure rule you're half-remembering? I mean, I have that issue all the time, where I can't recall precisely which book something was in, let alone which page. And gods help you if it's something in a setting book, you're going to have to actually read from cover to cover to find it.

Whereas with PDFs I can actually do a search on my RPG books directory and have it tell me which book contains the phrase I'm looking for in less than a second.

RTGoodman
2008-03-15, 07:06 AM
White Wolf very deliberately put the setting information at the front to highlight the fact that this is a role playing game not a roll playing game, and that it's all about the story (which they clearly define as "their prewritten game world") not about the rules (which are, of course, the things you use to create your actual character).

Well, that makes sense. Everyone knows you can't roleplay a character well if you worry about those silly mechanics and optimize your character to, you know, survive.[/sarcasm]

I saw this thread back when it started and didn't really think too much about it. The more I thought about it, though, the more this strikes me pretentious and more than a little bit immature. I think I'd be okay if they said, "Hey, come check out WW - we're a story-based, RP-heavy game for those looking for that kind of game." Instead, their focus is on just attacking D&D as an immature system, clearly inferior to their product lineup (which, from my experience, seems to include mostly games entitled "Blank: The Blank-ening" or some variation thereof).

I'm in to checking out new systems, and I recognize that D&D is not perfect (it's far from it), but if I play a new system I want it to be because it's a fun alternative to D&D/d20, not because they beat me over the head with the fact that I'm stupid for playing such a system and that changing to their system is the smart, cool, and mature thing to do.

Winterwind
2008-03-15, 07:06 AM
I do almost judge RPG books by pretty much this standard these days actually. Does it open with setting material? Then it's probably sub-White-Wolf trash that thinks its hack game designers are smarter and more creative than me. Does it open with rules I can actually use? Then I might actually buy it.Funny, it's quite the opposite for me.
If it starts with rules, then there are probably a lot of rules to come yet, which means it is a rules-heavy system, and therefore not really my cup of tea. If it starts with stories or setting material, then the book probably focuses more on conveying the atmosphere of the setting, and hence will make for a much more enjoyable read to me (learning how people in this new world think from first-person perspective short stories? Fun. Reading about formula #143 for finding out a modifier I am going to make up on the spot anyway? Not fun.).

Important to note though, I make this distinction because I know what book will be more fun to read to me, not because I think the game will be a more noble or sophisticated experience due to that. Seems White Wolf has given into the latter fallacy...

Zincorium
2008-03-15, 07:12 AM
Really, this doesn't surprise me too much. WW has been just as free to release new editions of their game as D&D has, and now they've got a bit more advance warning to install the fortifications.

I think the biggest issue is there really isn't as much difference between WW editions and D&D editions, other than the NWOD the games play pretty much the same, with the older games often having a slight advantage in material available. Currently, I'm playing Exalted 1st edition for that very reason, exalted in a rather out-of-the-way section of the setting.

Although I recognize the arrogance and the flat-out foolish writing of the promotion, the basic concept is reasonable from WW's perspective. There are quite a few people with good reasons not to buy 4th (an a few more with bad reasons) and they may want to switch over to something else. I'm not sure Exalted is the best choice, though.

If there's one thing I've seen white wolf do well, it's specific games with strong support for a narrow range of characters. They can't compete with D&D for 'generic fantasy' and they shouldn't try to if they want to keep their core audience. Exalted, Vampire, and Werewolf are all very different, and just getting players who are unsatisfied with 3.5 to join into one of their games is unlikely to be rewarding.

Personally, I think they'd do better to offer any one new world-of-darkness book in exchange rather than just the Exalted 2nd ed, but then I'm not employed by white wolf.

Rutee
2008-03-15, 07:12 AM
QFT

TBH, the advert made me curious enough to check out the core book - presumably the one they're giving away. And like all things WW, its chock full of silly stories, cartoons and 'fluff' that I didn't even get to the character creation after an hour of reading. If that means it's more intelligent, I'd rather be stupid.

I buy RP books for meat, not lemon merraigne. I like the 3.5 PHB because it give 2 pages of intro and then BAM! here's how to make a character. Straight forward and honest.

Don't get me wrong, the Exalted Core Rules would make an excellent coffee table book, or an even better bathroom read for potty time. But for crunchy goodness, it sticks in the teeth like bad taffy.

Not for me, I guess.

So you /didn't read/ the rules.. and from this manage to know the rules are /bad/. Bravo.

SofS: Does the money get back to copyright holders somehow? Notwithstanding that, if /true/, Talya would need to be copying the media onto blank media first.

Mind that I consider it more likely that you're breaking your treaty (Which isn't necessarily the same thing as being illegal) then that you're actually paying the proper amount to cover copyright law. Not out of any malice, but because they're RPG books; I somehow don't expect that your country thought they'd need compensation.

Brauron
2008-03-15, 07:52 AM
Dang, they're not accepting 3.0 books...I've been trying to find someone to take my 3.0 PHB off my hands...looks like I'll be resorting to eBay.

Kioran
2008-03-15, 08:07 AM
SofS: Does the money get back to copyright holders somehow? Notwithstanding that, if /true/, Talya would need to be copying the media onto blank media first.

Mind that I consider it more likely that you're breaking your treaty (Which isn't necessarily the same thing as being illegal) then that you're actually paying the proper amount to cover copyright law. Not out of any malice, but because they're RPG books; I somehow don't expect that your country thought they'd need compensation.

While copyright infringement is certainly bad, making this political is toeing a line - especially one better not toed here.

That said, WW´s promotional move shades their own consumer base, or at least themself, as pretentious wan***s, thus reinforcing probably all negative stereotyping of their products and fanbase......mission failed.

Tengu
2008-03-15, 08:16 AM
I dunno if it is ENTIRELY undeserved; the stereotype of WW players exists for a reason, and this sort of marketing is part of the reason that they are the way they are (or perhaps vice-versa). These are the same people who wear the t-shirts "You laugh because we're different. We laugh because you're all the same" then have to stand around looking uncomfortable because their three friends all bought the exact same t-shirt.


Exalted, not the typical WW players - while they are stereotypically a bunch of emos, goths and Holier Than Thou, You Cannot Roleplay people, and the WW-fascinated individuals I met did little to fight this stereotype... I was talking about the game here. And Exalted seems to be targetted to a completely different crowd (over the top, epic, not wangsty), and a very good game - and that's what I care about. To hell with the fandom.

horseboy
2008-03-15, 09:55 AM
Exalted, not the typical WW players - while they are stereotypically a bunch of emos, goths and Holier Than Thou, You Cannot Roleplay people, and the WW-fascinated individuals I met did little to fight this stereotype... I was talking about the game here. And Exalted seems to be targetted to a completely different crowd (over the top, epic, not wangsty), and a very good game - and that's what I care about. To hell with the fandom.
Well, OWoD had that rep, but most of the people I knew that played it were some of the most bloody PvPers I've met in gaming. It's a system that works REALLY well for it, ironically enough, especially since any body could compete (well, except mages, only low generation Ravanos really stood a chance against against being turned mortal)

Tengu
2008-03-15, 09:59 AM
Interesting... unfortunately I don't know much about nWoD apart from some fluff changes (including how they butchered the fluff of Mage... although butchered is a bad word - rather, they changed it completely into something more generic) and that it's much more balanced now.
And I don't really care much, since Exalted is the only WW game I really like anyway.

Quincunx
2008-03-15, 11:19 AM
Quote formatting changed from italics to bold to preserve original emphases.


Really?

I'm sorry, but seriously?

You honestly find unsearchable hardcopy documents, many of which don't even have an index in the back, more convenient than PDF?

Yes, because I have a kinetic memory, which responds better to information in different physical locations than to electronic tags on an unchanging screen, and the ability to use bookmarks and highlighters (printed text is not sacred, you can alter it as freely as altering a file, if you own the book).

I might have expected this level of snobbery from the WoD department, but I had hoped that the point of Exalted was to appeal to people who wanted something distinct, and separately enjoyable. Makes me wonder if their current player base is aging and not buying so many books. I'm in the camp of people who complained about Exalted and Tome of Battle in the same breath, but I've only tried to play Exalted 1st edition (and didn't play enough to see the need for a second).

Rutee, thanks much for the research into Canadian copyright law and its interpretations and misinterpretations.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-03-15, 11:32 AM
O.O
You honestly find unsearchable hardcopy documents, many of which don't even have an index in the back, more convenient than PDF?

I'd die if I had to use all hardcopy material... How the heck do you ever find that obscure rule you're half-remembering? I mean, I have that issue all the time, where I can't recall precisely which book something was in, let alone which page. And gods help you if it's something in a setting book, you're going to have to actually read from cover to cover to find it.

Whereas with PDFs I can actually do a search on my RPG books directory and have it tell me which book contains the phrase I'm looking for in less than a second.

Hard copies give me the ability to have a lot of things open at the same time, and cross reference them. If I was using PDFs, there's only so many I can have open, on screen, at any one time.



Edit: Illiterate, I just noticed the FALCON... SAGE. Best Avatar ever.

I was wondering how many people would get it. :smallwink:

EvilElitest
2008-03-15, 11:38 AM
Isn't that what most elitism is about? I don't think I've ever met an elitist who could actually be considered elite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elitism

Elitists tend to define their own standards of elite, but in general the theory is that if you want to be respected/helped by the elite, you need to earn a place with the elite.
from
EE

SofS
2008-03-15, 06:57 PM
So you /didn't read/ the rules.. and from this manage to know the rules are /bad/. Bravo.

SofS: Does the money get back to copyright holders somehow? Notwithstanding that, if /true/, Talya would need to be copying the media onto blank media first.

Mind that I consider it more likely that you're breaking your treaty (Which isn't necessarily the same thing as being illegal) then that you're actually paying the proper amount to cover copyright law. Not out of any malice, but because they're RPG books; I somehow don't expect that your country thought they'd need compensation.

The money does get back to copyright holders, it appears. It almost certainly doesn't go back to the right copyright holders, as there's no good way to monitor what goes where and the methods of distribution are sort of laughable (I think that whoever has the most CD sales in a given week gets the lion's share of the tax money for that week or something absurd like that). I seriously doubt that RPG companies get any compensation, though I know very little about the issue and should not be given particular credence in this matter.

The copyright issue is a pretty huge thing for RPG companies. A band at least has the option of making some of it up on the tours, but roleplaying companies don't have similar options unless they're quite large. I can't fault WotC for their occasional pushes towards alternate sources of income, such as the miniatures and the online subscription services that have been hinted at, though I don't plan on using either.

It's an issue that every company needs to deal with, anad every company deals with it differently. I think White Wolf relied on a loyal fanbase and lots of supplements to make up their profits back when I played their line. SJ Games seems to do well by embracing the electronic market and thus keeping initial costs down (their electronic warehouse should be a beacon to the industry, I think; they sell plenty of books at very low cost to the customer and even lower cost to themselves. It's pretty much win-win). WotC is very ambitious and wants to become even larger than they are, so they need to use different strategies. They need (relatively) high-cost books, accessories, and events in order to support their burgeoning empire, so they can't really use a smaller company's business model or overlook too much in the way of piracy like the others can. I'm not sure if this will really work for them, as their market might be too small for their ambitions anyway.

Anyway. My point is that the RPG industry, like the music and film industries, needs to adapt to the current situation instead of acting like it's something that the law will deal with. I think that it'd be good for companies to go with a small-time style for book production and supplement it with services for the hardcore or community player, as that seems to be working well for some people right now. Otherwise, there'll be more $40 books that only half the readers actually pay for.

Brickwall
2008-03-15, 07:27 PM
Hmm...I lost my hardcover of Exalted, and I never use my hardcover PHB. If I didn't have to go through hoops just to use the post, I'd take part.

I'm wondering, though, what the deal with sending in a 3.5 PHB is. Everyone that into gaming has enough memorized to just use the SRD for D&D, and 4e is coming out anyway. They won't play D&D any less, and I can't imagine WW has a burning need for 3.5 PHBs.

Maybe WotC is paying them to help reclaim some PHBs discreetly, or something. :smalltongue:

EvilElitest
2008-03-15, 08:04 PM
Hmm...I lost my hardcover of Exalted, and I never use my hardcover PHB. If I didn't have to go through hoops just to use the post, I'd take part.

I'm wondering, though, what the deal with sending in a 3.5 PHB is. Everyone that into gaming has enough memorized to just use the SRD for D&D, and 4e is coming out anyway. They won't play D&D any less, and I can't imagine WW has a burning need for 3.5 PHBs.

Maybe WotC is paying them to help reclaim some PHBs discreetly, or something. :smalltongue:

apparently WW is destroying them
from
EE

Rutee
2008-03-15, 08:19 PM
The money does get back to copyright holders, it appears. It almost certainly doesn't go back to the right copyright holders, as there's no good way to monitor what goes where and the methods of distribution are sort of laughable (I think that whoever has the most CD sales in a given week gets the lion's share of the tax money for that week or something absurd like that). I seriously doubt that RPG companies get any compensation, though I know very little about the issue and should not be given particular credence in this matter.
I'll say this; After reading the court decision, while Talya got the actual meaning completely wrong (Yes, you can download whatever you want for distribution purposes.. but you can't /use/ it unless you're already abiding by Canadian law; Basically, /downloading/ doesn't constitute theft of IP; *Using* what you've downloaded still does, it seems like), I really really like the motive behind the judge's decision. I don't like the logic, but the motive makes up for it. And, well, the question will just remain unanswered; that's all you get for free :smallbiggrin:

Incidentally, being able to read the decision reminded me of my intense hatred for 'civilized' law (I can say that, I'm a legal studies major). Why, oh why, do judges not see a need to provide a Cliff Notes version for normal people? It feels like a big part of the impenetrability of the law to normal people is that they never translate their own work. Though, I'm so lazy, I would probably stop there if I didn't actually care about the topic in question, and that's a bad habit..


Anyway. My point is that the RPG industry, like the music and film industries, needs to adapt to the current situation instead of acting like it's something that the law will deal with. I think that it'd be good for companies to go with a small-time style for book production and supplement it with services for the hardcore or community player, as that seems to be working well for some people right now. Otherwise, there'll be more $40 books that only half the readers actually pay for.
Yeah.. this is a pretty hard business to /sell/ in. Your target market is nerds; Nerds are the most likely to know how to pirate you. It's especially painful for PC Game companies, I bet, since I can steal whatever I want if I'm of a mind to. Hope they find something..


I'm wondering, though, what the deal with sending in a 3.5 PHB is. Everyone that into gaming has enough memorized to just use the SRD for D&D, and 4e is coming out anyway. They won't play D&D any less, and I can't imagine WW has a burning need for 3.5 PHBs.
Someone else pointed out that this is a time people are likely to /take/ the deal (Moreso in 2 months). The theory then is that you will buy supplements (EG Every book /but/ Exalted). I don't know if this is very wise. Aside from the retarded tone of the ad itself, I mean. It seems a solid /theory/, at least.

EvilElitest
2008-03-16, 05:12 PM
This copy right thing is confusing me, i think i'm missing something here
from
EE

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2008-03-16, 06:39 PM
To be honest, I don't think it's all that bad of an idea, and a rather decent marketing ploy if you think about it. White Wolf obviously knows about the dissent among D&D players about liking or disliking the very notion of 4th edition, let alone some/many of the changes. So, like any good business they've decided to capitalize on the people that WoTC/Hasbro (as I think Hasbro has more to do with the new edition than WoTC does). has alienated and is trying to get some of those who wouldn't have given a white wolf product a second look a chance. The way I see it, it's a win/win for everyone involved. Right now, you can get a 3.5 PHB off of the web for around $10. So, if you really don't want to part with your current one (such as myself, since I don't plan on going to get the new edition in the near or far future), you go buy one cheap, and send it in to White Wolf for a free copy of a $40 book. So you've basically just gotten a new book for one quarter of the retail price. Meanwhile, White Wolf introduces these people to a new system, and those who find they like it will start buying more of their books, and White Wolf thus makes money off of the people that WoTC pissed off. I guess I don't see why all you people think White Wolf is so evil for doing this, it's just a good business strategy.

Bleen
2008-03-16, 06:42 PM
I am reminded of the ads for Daikatana. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daikatana) DESIGN IS LAW. I don't see what they're doing as bad, just kinda..dumb.

EvilElitest
2008-03-16, 06:43 PM
I think taht was WW's theory, but it didn't pan out because they were just so generally insulting. Also they haven't shown that WW's styem is better, personally i avoid Exalted for the same reasons i dislike 4E (to be fair however, Exalted seems to be better thought out)
from
EE

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2008-03-16, 07:00 PM
I think taht was WW's theory, but it didn't pan out because they were just so generally insulting. Also they haven't shown that WW's styem is better, personally i avoid Exalted for the same reasons i dislike 4E (to be fair however, Exalted seems to be better thought out)
from
EE

I for one have actually played Exalted (1st ed, not 2nd), and I thought it was a rather neat game. It's very anime over the topish, which is a nice break from D&D sometimes. You can go into all sorts elaborate descriptions of attacking and what not. I actually know quite a few people that think the d10 system White Wolf uses, is much better than anything D&D has ever put out. It really is a more straight forward, and less convoluted system.

Ivius
2008-03-16, 07:30 PM
Ha ha ha.

This is like Arby's letting you trade McDonalds' hamburgers for their roast beef sandwiches: The second one tastes better, but it's arrogant and they're not going to make any money.

Rutee
2008-03-16, 07:42 PM
I for one have actually played Exalted (1st ed, not 2nd), and I thought it was a rather neat game. It's very anime over the topish, which is a nice break from D&D sometimes. You can go into all sorts elaborate descriptions of attacking and what not. I actually know quite a few people that think the d10 system White Wolf uses, is much better than anything D&D has ever put out. It really is a more straight forward, and less convoluted system.

Meh. The Dice System isn't really that different, except that it's a bit more controllable. nWoD /can/ get just as ridiculous about modifiers as D20. It's just that the mods won't be buffs, but situational things. And honestly, they're probably a little easier to handwave out, since they're not 'spell buffs'.

Well okay it /is/ that different, but it's not different in a significant way, IMO.

"Roll a D20, compare to difficulty, add modifiers"
"Roll X D10s, add modifiers to dice pool, compare sux to difficulty"
Maybe it's just me.

EvilElitest
2008-03-16, 08:03 PM
I for one have actually played Exalted (1st ed, not 2nd), and I thought it was a rather neat game. It's very anime over the topish, which is a nice break from D&D sometimes. You can go into all sorts elaborate descriptions of attacking and what not. I actually know quite a few people that think the d10 system White Wolf uses, is much better than anything D&D has ever put out. It really is a more straight forward, and less convoluted system.

Exalted seems a good system if that way of play is what you like. For that target demographic, its a good system from what i gather
from
EE

The Valiant Turtle
2008-03-16, 08:32 PM
I happen to think Exalted is one of the best RPG's ever invented, but this is still pretty pathetic of WW. I'm don't really care one way or the other about the mechanics of the game, but the setting and general tone is absolutely incredible.

But it depends on your Storyteller. It's actually true of all WW games, but I thought I should mention it. I personally know that I don't have what it takes to run a good game in any WW game. It might be half decent, but it won't showcase the real strengths of the system.

I think it can be a misnomer to categorize Exalted as Epic. The general power struggle is indeed very high and would be 'Epic Level' in D&D terms, but 'Epic Level' and 'Epic' are not the same. You can send lvl 1 D&D characters on an epic quest to save the world (Lord of the Rings anyone), and indeed a lot of D&D quests end up being of the save the world variety, regardless of the character level involved. It's certainly possible to run a save the world game in Exalted. But since there are so many shades of gray, it's hard to figure out who you would be saving the world from, since at least theoretically if the Solars (nominal good-guys) became supreme rulers again they would turn into total complete self-centered non-benevolent dictators.

I think of Exalted more in the tone of Olympian Demi-gods or Arthurian level. It's not really possible to save the world because power corrupts, and whoever gets power next will just be corrupted by it. It's a matter of taking out the more corrupt members and hoping the less-corrupt ones don't get corrupted too fast. Until of course you become corrupted (although there are no game rules for that) and have to be taken out as well.

Rutee
2008-03-16, 08:39 PM
But it depends on your Storyteller. It's actually true of all WW games, but I thought I should mention it. I personally know that I don't have what it takes to run a good game in any WW game. It might be half decent, but it won't showcase the real strengths of the system.
If you can run DnD, you can run WW. Or anything else. The same skills are involved, always. You just need enough mechanical familiarity (And given that I ran my group's intro to WotG, I don't think you need that either, even if it helps).


I think it can be a misnomer to categorize Exalted as Epic. The general power struggle is indeed very high and would be 'Epic Level' in D&D terms, but 'Epic Level' and 'Epic' are not the same. You can send lvl 1 D&D characters on an epic quest to save the world (Lord of the Rings anyone), and indeed a lot of D&D quests end up being of the save the world variety, regardless of the character level involved. It's certainly possible to run a save the world game in Exalted. But since there are so many shades of gray, it's hard to figure out who you would be saving the world from, since at least theoretically if the Solars (nominal good-guys) became supreme rulers again they would turn into total complete self-centered non-benevolent dictators.
They might turn into non-benevolent dictators. Or they might find out about the Great Curse and /actually fix it/. They kicked Primordial Ass once, I don't see why they can't cancel their power again. But I typically run Exalted with an emphasis on Epic (And no, the word is not less suitable just because of Epic Levels, it's just that DnD fans are liable to confuse the two. Exalted is /made/ of Epic. They're inspired by Gilgamesh, The Yellow Emperor, Herakles, and others in that line. :P) and a positive tone (If not always positive events), so my opinion on that specific count will be colored.


]I think of Exalted more in the tone of Olympian Demi-gods or Arthurian level[/B]. It's not really possible to save the world because power corrupts, and whoever gets power next will just be corrupted by it. It's a matter of taking out the more corrupt members and hoping the less-corrupt ones don't get corrupted too fast. Until of course you become corrupted (although there are no game rules for that) and have to be taken out as well.

That's why Epic is an appropriate word; Remember where the word stems from :P
That aside, I prefer Solars rising above their past (Which is indeed the Core book's closest tone), but I don't need to repeat myself overmuch.

Indon
2008-03-16, 09:57 PM
You honestly find unsearchable hardcopy documents, many of which don't even have an index in the back, more convenient than PDF?

I do. More convenient than bookmarked PDF, at that.

Why? I've spent a good deal of my life handling books. I find it easy to get a sense for the locations of things in the rules, and I'm very good at opening a book to right where I need - sometimes the exact page I need - just by feel.

Pretty much the only form of electronic access that can compare for convenience, for me, is a cross-linked index [url=www.d20srd.org]similar to a wiki[/quote].

EvilElitest
2008-03-16, 10:15 PM
I do. More convenient than bookmarked PDF, at that.

Why? I've spent a good deal of my life handling books. I find it easy to get a sense for the locations of things in the rules, and I'm very good at opening a book to right where I need - sometimes the exact page I need - just by feel.

Pretty much the only form of electronic access that can compare for convenience, for me, is a cross-linked index [url=www.d20srd.org]similar to a wiki.[/QUOTE]

your link doesn't work sadly
from
EE

Werewindlefr
2008-03-16, 11:17 PM
I am exactly like Indon on this one. I thought pdf would be more convenient at first, at first, especially thanks to the "ctrl+f"-search-hotkey, but hardcover books can be read everywhere, don't make my eyes bleed as fast. And once I know the book well enough to only need it when I need to check a rule, it takes less time for me to find it inside the hardcover version that the pdf version. And when I have several books, actually finding the one I need on the taskbar becomes annoying.

Terraoblivion
2008-03-16, 11:23 PM
pdf has the benefit of portability though. Bringing my entire lexicon of Exalted or D&D books with me would require a car, something i don't own and isn't allowed to drive. It is simply easier to load the pdf versions of said books unto any kind of transferable media and bringing it where i need them...provided there is a computer at least. Physical books are better for just about everything else though.

Rutee
2008-03-16, 11:25 PM
I don't really have an opinion on PDFs vs. Hardcovers. I'm pretty compy-bound 'cause of my class setup, and I don't know anybody around here worth playing with (I really hate it when the worst stereotypes of nerd-dom re: The fairer Sex prove true. :smallannoyed: ) so there's pretty much no difference. Right up until my eyes are too badly strained anyway.

Werewindlefr
2008-03-16, 11:38 PM
Well, pdfs do have advantages, so I'm not going to say that they are inferior to the hardcover versions; with pdfs, you can copy-paste feats and spells directly on character sheets, for instance. It helps a lot to have what's relevant to your character directly available.
When I can (and win the lottery :p), I try to have both the pdf and the hardcover version. It works for games with a few supplements (Shardowrun 4, for instance), but with D&D 3.5 and its endless supply of optional books, it's not a viable option. I wish they would sell provide pdf versions with the hardcover books.

purple gelatinous cube o' Doom
2008-03-16, 11:42 PM
I think taht was WW's theory, but it didn't pan out because they were just so generally insulting. Also they haven't shown that WW's styem is better, personally i avoid Exalted for the same reasons i dislike 4E (to be fair however, Exalted seems to be better thought out)
from
EE

I for one have actually played Exalted (1st ed, not 2nd), and I thought it was a rather neat game. It's very anime over the topish, which is a nice break from D&D sometimes. You can go into all sorts elaborate descriptions of attacking and what not. I actually know quite a few people that think the d10 system White Wolf uses, is much better than anything D&D has ever put out. It really is a more straight forward, and less convoluted system.

Fhaolan
2008-03-17, 12:30 AM
I do. More convenient than bookmarked PDF, at that.

Why? I've spent a good deal of my life handling books. I find it easy to get a sense for the locations of things in the rules, and I'm very good at opening a book to right where I need - sometimes the exact page I need - just by feel.

Pretty much the only form of electronic access that can compare for convenience, for me, is a cross-linked index [url=www.d20srd.org]similar to a wiki.[/QUOTE]

Personally, I can read a hardcopy book faster than I can read a PDF. I find screens irritating to read chapter-sized chunks of text, and the fact that I'm chained to the large bulky laptop or desk in order to read whatever is also irritating.

If I'm doing searches or looking things up, yay computers. When I actually want to *read* something from cover to cover, yay books.

Terraoblivion
2008-03-17, 12:46 AM
Books definitely rule for reading any significant chunks of text for several reasons. One is that the resolution is much better than even the best monitor and it lacks the slight flicker that monitors have due to being a light source. In addition to that books have the inclusion of tactile stimuli included, even if it is just the ability to thumb through the pages and feel the paper against your fingers. Books of course also hold the great benefit of them being generally more comfortable to use, it is just much easier to read a book in bed than reading anything saved on your laptop in bed.

As for owning both pdf and books, i know that in Denmark at least it is legal to make or be given a pdf copy of a book provided you have bought the book first. What it means is that if you buy a book, then you are fully within your right to download a pdf of it as well if you consider that convenient. Similar things apply to music, movies, video games and pretty much anything else you can feasibly make a copy of. You may not distribute the copy unless the person receiving it also owns an original of the product in question. I have no clue if there is anything similar in other countries.

Behold_the_Void
2008-03-17, 12:51 AM
I've been interested in Exalted, but that's a major turn-off. I also hadn't realized that White Wolf put it out, and I really don't like the WoD settings to begin with which is more points against it. Maybe someday, but this leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Turcano
2008-03-17, 04:37 AM
Slight tangent: You know what tells the truth about White Wolf?

This does (http://www.somethingpositive.net/sp06212003.shtml).

Terraoblivion
2008-03-17, 05:30 AM
Don't let the fact that it was published by White Wolf scare you off from Exalted, Void. The setting is rather different from the setting of World of Darkness. Much more positive and upbeat, even hopeful, than most settings. After all it is basically a game about doing the impossible and going beyond that, so no moping around. I can understand feeling less a desire to buy something after seeing this marketing campaign though.

Tengu
2008-03-17, 05:41 AM
Don't let the fact that it was published by White Wolf scare you off from Exalted, Void. The setting is rather different from the setting of World of Darkness. Much more positive and upbeat, even hopeful, than most settings. After all it is basically a game about doing the impossible and going beyond that, so no moping around. I can understand feeling less a desire to buy something after seeing this marketing campaign though.

I agree. Ignore the bad taste that this campaign leaves in your mouth and give Exalted a try! There's no way someone who likes Bleach so much he made a homebrew system out of it won't enjoy Exalted.

Zincorium
2008-03-17, 06:17 AM
Has anyone else wondered how they can justify this monetarily?

Unlike D&D, where it's recommended you have at least 3 books just to play a basic game, Exalted contains everything needed to play the game.

Heck, as long as you're only playing solars, it's hard to justify buying another book in the exalted series, made more difficult by how specific the other books are.

So, they're removing one of three pieces of a soon to be obsolete edition for which 90% or more of the information appears legally and for completely free online where anyone can access it... to introduce people to a game for which they're not actually enticed to buy more of for a good period of time.

Is this the game publishing equivalent of slashing your wrists?

Terraoblivion
2008-03-17, 06:27 AM
What you said about not needing another book is true. Provided you don't want to be a sorceror, a necromancer, a martial artist or have any of the more interesting artifacts. And the GM would likely also need books for other exalt types and for gods, unless the entire game will consist of beating up mortals and occasionally meeting another solar. Really you do need more than just the basic book in most cases.

Zincorium
2008-03-17, 06:42 AM
What you said about not needing another book is true. Provided you don't want to be a sorceror, a necromancer, a martial artist or have any of the more interesting artifacts. And the GM would likely also need books for other exalt types and for gods, unless the entire game will consist of beating up mortals and occasionally meeting another solar. Really you do need more than just the basic book in most cases.

I said they're hard to justify buying, not that people wouldn't ever buy them. 30$ or more, from what I've seen in gaming stores, is a lot to spend on just one type of adversary if you're not going to base the campaign specifically around that.

And the exalted 2nd edition book does contain stuff for the characters to fight. Mortals, beastmen, fair folk, wyld cults, elementals, demons, undead, basics of the abyssal and terrestrial exalted, and a whole slew of minor stuff.

Nevermind that exalted shouldn't be played as a dungeoncrawl if you want to get the most out of the setting.

Terraoblivion
2008-03-17, 06:53 AM
The basics of the other exalt types as found in the core book is not going to cut it for more than a single, low-priority encounter whether social or combatitive and it is just very unlikely you will not deal with dragonblooded more than that and depending on the story it could also be very likely you would deal with one or more of the other types.

Also a lot of character concepts are poorly supported in the core book. Martial arts and sorcery are the most obvious of them, what is in the core book simply isn't enough for more than the most rudimentary use of those. And like i said any relatively advanced use of artifacts falls under the need for more books as well. In the long run i would say that it is going to be hard to run Exalted without at least MoEP: The Dragonblooded, Scroll of the Monk and The White and Black Treatise, and that is if you don't care about lunars, abyssals, sidereals, artifacts and hearthstones, thaumaturgy or more detailed setting information.

In fact i would say that the system provides more justification for buying books beyond the first than D&D does for buying books beyond core. In many ways what you get in the books beyond the core book is integrated parts of the system and not optional extras, balance fixes and the like.

Oslecamo
2008-03-17, 07:01 AM
Has anyone else wondered how they can justify this monetarily?

Unlike D&D, where it's recommended you have at least 3 books just to play a basic game, Exalted contains everything needed to play the game.

Heck, as long as you're only playing solars, it's hard to justify buying another book in the exalted series, made more difficult by how specific the other books are.

So, they're removing one of three pieces of a soon to be obsolete edition for which 90% or more of the information appears legally and for completely free online where anyone can access it... to introduce people to a game for which they're not actually enticed to buy more of for a good period of time.

Is this the game publishing equivalent of slashing your wrists?
´


That's why poeple are saying in this thread that white wolf is geting desesperate.

But there's also the mouth to mouth publicity.

They are expecting that those who get a free exalted book get completely hooked up on the game and will tell everybody they know how exalted is the ultimate roleplaying game and how they should all buy exalted books only for their gaming needs. Eventually, all people on earth will play exalted and white wolf will reign as supreme comander of earth.


It's the only rational explanation I can find.

Zincorium
2008-03-17, 07:06 AM
The basics of the other exalt types as found in the core book is not going to cut it for more than a single, low-priority encounter whether social or combatitive and it is just very unlikely you will not deal with dragonblooded more than that and depending on the story it could also be very likely you would deal with one or more of the other types.

Your basis? I've been storyteller without feeling I've needed anything beyond the core book. It takes a good long while to get tired with the possibilities that are presented in there.


Also a lot of character concepts are poorly supported in the core book. Martial arts and sorcery are the most obvious of them, what is in the core book simply isn't enough for more than the most rudimentary use of those. And like i said any relatively advanced use of artifacts falls under the need for more books as well. In the long run i would say that it is going to be hard to run Exalted without at least MoEP: The Dragonblooded, Scroll of the Monk and The White and Black Treatise, and that is if you don't care about lunars, abyssals, sidereals, artifacts and hearthstones, thaumaturgy or more detailed setting information.

I did not find that to be the case. Having taken a look at those books you mentioned later on, after ceasing to run the game in question, I wasn't pounding my forehead and calling myself an idiot for not having run out and bought them to begin with. They're extras, not necessities. Regarding martial arts and sorcery, my players wouldn't have wanted them. They're a complication to the system, more like the expanded psionics hand book or magic of incarnum than anything else.


In fact i would say that the system provides more justification for buying books beyond the first than D&D does for buying books beyond core.

Core for D&D is three books. Core for Exalted is one book. If it weren't for the SRD, wotc could legitimately give away PHBs, because there are no magic items or monsters in the PHB, and therefore people have to buy the others. There is no such forcing with exalted.


In many ways what you get in the books beyond the core book is integrated parts of the system and not optional extras, balance fixes and the like.

There is no difference between the exalted expansions and D&D expansions. Both are giving you expanded options and ideas on a very specific subject.

Scroll of the monk and the white and black treatises fill the exact same function as tome of battle and tome of magic do for D&D, there is no need for any of them to run a game but they're nice to have.

Terraoblivion
2008-03-17, 07:42 AM
Even if you didn't feel a need to use them, it is hard to argue that martial arts and sorcery are expansions on the core system of Exalted given that both were presented in the core book, just in an extremely stripped down form. All these things you call optional extras are not presented as such in the core book, you might get by without them but they are presented as being integrated and important elements of the setting and the system.

In fact i would say that second edition Exalted is an integrated whole, the setting and the rules work closely together and many parts of the rules presupposes the presence of the other. A basic assumption of the game is that dragonblooded martial artists will oppose the solars, right there is both martial arts and the dragonblooded supposed to be part of the game. Even if you can play the game with stripped versions of them or focus on parts that doesn't involve those, doesn't mean they are extras. Sorcery is a bit further removed from the central focus of the game, but not more than several of the centrally located figures in the setting are using it and many aspects of the setting is described as having come about because of it. It can again be handwaved or used in a stripped down form, but that does not change that it is a basic part of the system.

And in the long term it is simply unrealistic that these integrated parts of the system will not be touched upon, at least if the setting used is the one the system was build to work with. There is just a limit to how much a group of solars can do before Immaculate Monks start hunting them and then you will be dealing with both martial arts and dragonblooded. That is why i specified that in the long term you will need those books and possibly more. No matter how long time you play D&D you won't reach a point where the parts of the setting you can use are contingent on you having access to Tome of Battle and Tome of Magic. Reaching such a point will happen sooner or later in Exalted if you lack at least some of the supplements.

Zincorium
2008-03-17, 08:01 AM
Terrablivion, you obviously define 'need' completely differently than I do. Or you're not talking about need, when I was.

You don't need the scroll of the monk to play a martial artist, or to send them up against the PCs, because there are rules for making one in the core book. You might want the book, but you don't need it.

Ditto for sorcery.

You don't need dragonblooded to send the PCs up against terrestrials. The rules you as a storyteller require are in the core book. You might want it, you don't need it.

You don't need wonders of the lost age to equip your character with as many points in artifacts as you can buy. You can give many of them to your players without exhausting the supply or homebrewing your own. Might want it, don't need it.

If you need more, buy it, but saying that absolutely everyone has your same need for supplements, and, to be honest here, apparent lack of creativity since you seem to be unable to run anything that you don't a whole book devoted to, is unrealistic.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-17, 08:49 AM
I'd guess WW's strategy is to capitalize on the librarians. You know, that guy... Every group has at least one. He HAS to have his own copy of whatever the group is playing at current, and he's not the GM.

I should know, I am that guy.

I'd assume WW is hoping to get a bunch of sales from the Librarian types when their groups give the game a whirl due to the offer...

Bleen
2008-03-17, 08:56 AM
-snip-

See, now, I won't judge the quality or content of the books by the terribad marketing on WW's end, but needing that many books just to get your typical milage out of a game..ehh. That's a bit of a turn-off for me, and how shall I say, it stacks with the typical image one gets when they imagine the majority of WW folks. The fact that it costs $30 per book, out of three or more books to get your rules for an RPG system, and then there are OTHER costs on top of that (sup dice), and then you have to have somewhere to put your $90+ of books, and then what if some schmuck is visiting and damages them? For $20 more than a single book(and far less than all three/five/however many you'll really really want!), I can buy a video game. Provided I do my research, I can probably find a good game that'll last me around forty or fifty hours.

Now, one could argue that a good RPG system offers far more capabilities and potential than a hard-coded video game. I won't disagree. That's why I take a break from my video games and shell out my money on these books and drag a pizza and some soda over to some guy's house so we can get together and pretend we're (Mythical Heroes/Demigods/Vampies/Wizards/Fighters/Bards/Ninjas/Action Movie Heroes/Anime characters/what-have-you)! But not everyone has those kinds of pals immediately available, and as much as I trust and respect some of my buddies IRL - their tastes don't exactly line up with mine when it comes to recreational activity.

So I've spent up to $150 on books. Ink and paper, mind you. I'm not going to get a degree that I can put on my resume for studying these books. I want them around for fun. My locale isn't one where I can just shove myself into a bunch of random people in a group and expect something good. In fact, that doesn't seem to necessarily work out for me in the best of places, but that's another tale for another time. There's a chance the content in these books may be good, but there's also a chance I'll have no one who wants to get together with me, either. And before this comes off as crossing too far into the "personal wangsting about my life", I'll just cut to the point now.

The crazy prices, paired with the potential difficulty in finding a group*, paired with learning new rules, make for a very high and annoying entry barrier into most RPG systems.

I do not advocate piracy in any shape or form. I CAN see a reason why people do it, though - this stuff costs way too damn much for what we're getting. The whole "Pay for a bunch of farking expensive books that all rely on and interact with each other just so you can play a game that you might not like once you actually start playing assuming you can find people who are actually people you like hanging out with and like playing the game that will play with you" approach needs to stop. At least when I buy miniatures or TCG cards I have something cool to show off.

*Your milage may vary.

Rutee
2008-03-17, 09:16 AM
I think she's exaggerating somewhat the need for books, but only somewhat. You /can/ run games without extras, but it's so much easier (Martial Arts just does not work without Scroll of the Monk. You can probably wing Sorcery, since you at least have a basis to work with, But the book shows you 2 charms out of Solar Hero; That's just not enough)

I think you can get by without the DB or Lunars book if your intent is to have them as NPCs, as well, but if you want either to be a solid focus, you'll want them. The DBs are easier to use without a book, though, because their gimmick is easier to work out in your head; They gang up on people, and will have Charms that work best by helping groups do what it is they already do (Most notable of these is.. I think it's called Grain Threshing Stance? It allows a number of DB up to your Melee gang up on one target, rather then the normal limit of 4 or so, at any rate) Lunars are harder, since all you really know without the book is that their Excellencies are Attribute based.

The simplest to run without a book for are Abyssals. They're Evil Solars, but instead of cheap perfects, they get Charms that make it really, really easy to beat the tar out of weaker opponents. (Things like the "Double your successes if you win" charms). But again, that's just me.

FYI: DnD is probably more guilty of this then White Wolf. At least, for non-casters. 90 dollars on the DMG, PHB, and MM. You can at least get Exalted Core, DB Manual, and Scroll of the Monk for that. The other most necessary books.. I imagine Black and White Treatises, Wonders of the Lost Age, and the Lunars, which are probably more necessary then the Completes.

Bleen
2008-03-17, 09:28 AM
FYI: DnD is probably more guilty of this then White Wolf. At least, for non-casters. 90 dollars on the DMG, PHB, and MM. You can at least get Exalted Core, DB Manual, and Scroll of the Monk for that. The other most necessary books.. I imagine Black and White Treatises, Wonders of the Lost Age, and the Lunars, which are probably more necessary then the Completes.
Ah, sorry if I came off weird. It wasn't an argument against White Wolf in particular. Just pen-and-paper or tabletop or whatever we call them these days RPG's in general. Wizards wants me to buy two PHBS, several MM's, a DMG, a Magic Item Compendium, a Spell Compendium, Campaign settings, etc, just as much as I need all this crazy stuff Terrablivion mentions to play a good WW game. My point is "It doesn't matter who you buy from this crap costs way too damn much any more!"

GammaPaladin
2008-03-17, 09:30 AM
Heh, maybe there's a good reason I haven't ever bothered to move up to 2E Exalted. 1E was perfectly playable with the core book. Although having the DB book was definitely advised.

Zincorium
2008-03-17, 09:35 AM
Heh, maybe there's a good reason I haven't ever bothered to move up to 2E Exalted. 1E was perfectly playable with the core book. Although having the DB book was definitely advised.

2E has different pictures and a few significant rules tweaks, and that's the only difference. If one worked for you with just two books, the other will as well. On the other hand, if you already have first edition, you don't really gain much by switching to second.

Indon
2008-03-17, 09:35 AM
Hmm. Well, I dunno about 2'nd edition Exalted, but I could run 1'st edition Exalted just fine with the core book (and for a little while, I did - I've been introducing material from other books steadily to my players).

White Wolf makes magnificent sourcebooks, though - sure, I can make a Dragon-blooded opponent (or empire, even) with the brief information given by the main book, but Exalted: The Dragon-Blooded makes the Realm come to life in comparison to what I'd be likely to hack out. I don't need the Player's Guide or The Book of Three Circles (Player's guide has general info on martial arts styles, how to make them, example styles, etc, among many other things that are probably included in the 2'nd ed core Exalted book) to have martial arts or sorcery in my games... but having them makes martial arts and sorcery in my games interesting.

Overall, I prefer White Wolf's writing method - have one book with at least an overview of each major possible system, then have sourcebooks for each of those systems so people can get details on what interests them most.

This is opposed to D&D's style (not even necessarily under WotC) in which subject matter is significantly more discrete for books released early in the version lifecycle (late lifecycle sees more compilations).

Rutee
2008-03-17, 09:37 AM
Heh, maybe there's a good reason I haven't ever bothered to move up to 2E Exalted. 1E was perfectly playable with the core book. Although having the DB book was definitely advised.

Not terribly moreso. What we're talking about didn't change from 1e to 2e. You get some sample Charms for the various Exalted types, about 15 Spells, Snake and Solar Hero styles.. but that's it. Like I said, she's probably exaggerating a /little/, but not enough. The most odious is the lack of Artifact creation guidelines though, IMO. Scroll of the Monk is like, 200 to 300 pages or so, I think? The Artifact Creation Guidelines in Oadenol's Codex (On an OOC level) were maybe 30 pages, and probably more vital then having any one style.


Ah, sorry if I came off weird. It wasn't an argument against White Wolf in particular. Just pen-and-paper or tabletop or whatever we call them these days RPG's in general. Wizards wants me to buy two PHBS, several MM's, a DMG, a Magic Item Compendium, a Spell Compendium, Campaign settings, etc, just as much as I need all this crazy stuff Terrablivion mentions to play a good WW game. My point is "It doesn't matter who you buy from this crap costs way too damn much any more!"
Fair enough then. Long as everyone's on the same standard.


2E has different pictures and a few significant rules tweaks, and that's the only difference. If one worked for you with just two books, the other will as well. On the other hand, if you already have first edition, you don't really gain much by switching to second.
Social Encounters. If /anyone/ in the group likes playing Eclipses or people with Presence/Socialize/Etc, 2e is a good buy. You don't need to upgrade everything, but having the social encounter rules is <3. Also if you like armies (War replaces Brawl, which was merged with MA. Solar Hero style is pretty much the old Brawl tree)



This is opposed to D&D's style (not even necessarily under WotC) in which subject matter is significantly more discrete for books released early in the version lifecycle (late lifecycle sees more compilations).
I genuinely do not see a difference, aside from book size. Can you get into what you mean with a few examples, maybe?

AmberVael
2008-03-17, 09:51 AM
I wonder what would happen if I tried to trade them a slip of paper that read "http://www.d20srd.org/" for a handbook...
What? It IS my PHB 3.5. :smalltongue:

Terraoblivion
2008-03-17, 09:53 AM
There are of course different levels of need, at the very basic thing the only thing any of us need is food, water and shelter from the elements, most of us feel that we need a great deal more than that though. It is basically the same with the game. At the most basic level you can use the core book as written without homebrewing anything. Most people who play the game will want to involve some or all of the neat parts of the setting that are either only mentioned in flavour text or poorly documented in the core book. You even recognize that those are part of the game, but not very well documented in the core book. The D&D equivalent would be that the PHB kept talking about wizards being part of the game and rules were made to accommodate them, but the rules for wizards themselves were in a separate book.

Now you could say that people could just homebrew them and it would likely work, but it would be a fundamentally different game and likely one where strange things crop up because of how central the area of rules touched is. This is what the equivalent of there being no real rule for types of exalted except for solars in the core book is. It isn't extra bonus stuff to play around with, it is part of the basic mechanics of the game. Sorcery and martial arts and especially artifacts, are much less central and much easier to create for yourself. Even so if you have to make everything yourself it is going to be a lot of and is very likely to lead to a mechanically more flaky game.

Also saying that you can just homebrew something so that rules for it is not needed is a kinda dodgy argument as it can be used about any part lacking. If something is a basic part of the game that the players have a reasonable expectation of running into or getting to use based on the core of the game, then rules for that is required. Not only that it completely ignores the amount of work and talent required to homebrew good rules for large part of a game. Not a whole lot of people will actually do that. So i stand by my statement that in general you will need those books for longterm play. If you have an awesome GM who is able to homebrew everything well without it seeming jarring or him getting overworked by it then that is cool and you don't unless you like collecting. But that is not a basic assumption you can enter into the game with.

EDIT: Just wanted to point out that i have been ninja'ed quite a few times and this was written after Bleen's first post.

Indon
2008-03-17, 10:34 AM
I genuinely do not see a difference, aside from book size. Can you get into what you mean with a few examples, maybe?

Now, I can't speak of the new World of Darkness, but the old Mage book mentioned the Technocracy a few times. You'd think they would make great antagonists, but they don't give you much information on the mechanics of the lost 10'th tradition, outside of the Technocracy book anyway.

In contrast, when has a core D&D book mentioned, say, Psionics? The system is more than one full edition old - if Psionics were meant to be part of the D&D world, there could have been mention of beings like Wizards, but who access their power differently. Instead, D&D sourcebooks aim for higher modularity (with the central 'module' being three books big).


Also saying that you can just homebrew something so that rules for it is not needed is a kinda dodgy argument as it can be used about any part lacking. If something is a basic part of the game that the players have a reasonable expectation of running into or getting to use based on the core of the game, then rules for that is required.
Core D&D doesn't come with very much setting at all (outside of the deity list). Sure, you can homebrew it, but it's most definitely lacking and intentionally so.

I don't think it's possible to not be expected to run into or get to use a setting.


Not only that it completely ignores the amount of work and talent required to homebrew good rules for large part of a game.
Again, I can't talk about 2'nd edition Exalted, but in 1'st edition Exalted Martial Arts require zero houseruling. The core book simply does not distinguish Martial Arts from other charm sets - other styles are mentioned as having existed, but it's mentioned that charm sets can be created for any ability, so it's unsurprising that Martial Arts could have other charms made for it. It's White Wolf's sourcebooks which add significance to martial arts.

I felt Sorcery very intuitive to houserule - Spells are learned like Charms. New spells are created at a similar level of power to other spells in its' circle, similar to how new charms are made (except obviously there are no spell trees). I made a number of artifacts and hearthstones (and the manses for them) off-the-cuff before reading the rules for making them simply by theming them and giving them powers similar to the examples in the book.

And obviously, pretty much all the rest is setting information, which many D&D players have the expectation that they should be made to create whole cloth.

Terraoblivion
2008-03-17, 11:00 AM
In regards to the effort to homebrew i mostly meant his claim that there was no real need for rules for exalt types other than solars. I have to say that i sure wouldn't want to have to go through that and i am certain that if i did it would be worse than even first edition lunars.

As for the amount of homebrew in D&D i know that you pretty much get the choice of trying to make your own world or paying for one that is mostly pre-made. It would be kinda embarrassing if i didn't given that i have around three feet of shelves with D&D books on them. Exalted is build around a setting though and that makes the argument that you can just homebrew large parts of that setting, dragonblooded for example, a bit problematic. Especially since the rules are made to accommodate dragonblooded working in a certain way.

And about martial arts i can only say that it was special from the onset in second edition and since i've never played first edition, though i have read parts of the fluff from it, i am used to thinking in second edition terms.

Behold_the_Void
2008-03-17, 01:21 PM
Don't let the fact that it was published by White Wolf scare you off from Exalted, Void. The setting is rather different from the setting of World of Darkness. Much more positive and upbeat, even hopeful, than most settings. After all it is basically a game about doing the impossible and going beyond that, so no moping around. I can understand feeling less a desire to buy something after seeing this marketing campaign though.

The campaign's a major turn-off, but I still want to try the system someday, since I've heard good things.

Is it focused on dots and point-based like other White Wolf systems? I'm not hugely enamored with that kind of a system for the kind of a feel I'd be wanting if I were to be playing Exalted (and am actually homebrewing a completely original system with my roommate to capture that specific feel).

Rutee
2008-03-17, 01:51 PM
The campaign's a major turn-off, but I still want to try the system someday, since I've heard good things.

Is it focused on dots and point-based like other White Wolf systems? I'm not hugely enamored with that kind of a system for the kind of a feel I'd be wanting if I were to be playing Exalted (and am actually homebrewing a completely original system with my roommate to capture that specific feel).

I'm actually not sure I follow; Were you just looking for a Superhero-style system instead, similar to Champions or Mutants and Masterminds?

Behold_the_Void
2008-03-17, 03:08 PM
I'm actually not sure I follow; Were you just looking for a Superhero-style system instead, similar to Champions or Mutants and Masterminds?

It's been my general opinion that for high-powered "epic" campaigns where the characters get progressively stronger really fast, a level-based system a la D&D works well, where you gain levels and constantly get better in a variety of ways. The standard WoD/Shadowrun system, which is point-based and has for a much slower progression, works for grittier gaming systems.

The question here is does Exalted go on a point-based system where you gain piddling amounts of experience after every session and use them to slowly buy up slight increases in combat proficiency, or is it more like D&D where you get visibly better much faster?

Rutee
2008-03-17, 03:37 PM
It's been my general opinion that for high-powered "epic" campaigns where the characters get progressively stronger really fast, a level-based system a la D&D works well, where you gain levels and constantly get better in a variety of ways. The standard WoD/Shadowrun system, which is point-based and has for a much slower progression, works for grittier gaming systems.

The question here is does Exalted go on a point-based system where you gain piddling amounts of experience after every session and use them to slowly buy up slight increases in combat proficiency, or is it more like D&D where you get visibly better much faster?

Levels are crap for Exalted, or any other system where you're supposed to get good at something that isn't fighting, and make it a focus. That said, it's more like the second. The difference in power between a solar after 20 sessions or so (about 100 Exp, not counting Exp Awards from Stunts) is significantly larger then the difference between a level 1 to level 6 DnD character (As I recall, you're 'supposed' to get a level every 4 sessions, which is 13 fights or so). Sure, the DnD character will have, say, 6 times the BAB and more HP.. but they won't have really /grown/ in a non-numeric sense. Character points just make more sense as advancement in general. The rather hideously huge problem with levels is that it also means classes. Classes specialize. Exalted really are supposed to be good at everything, in a general sense (Hence why I tend to build more Protean Exalted to begin with)

I /do/ think Exalted would work better if they didn't have escalating Exp costs though, similar to how MnM handles it, of course, but eh. The specific answer to your question is that you get visibly better much faster, since you get like, 5 exp a session, when a Charm is something like 10 exp.

Behold_the_Void
2008-03-17, 03:56 PM
Levels are crap for Exalted, or any other system where you're supposed to get good at something that isn't fighting, and make it a focus. That said, it's more like the second. The difference in power between a solar after 20 sessions or so (about 100 Exp, not counting Exp Awards from Stunts) is significantly larger then the difference between a level 1 to level 6 DnD character (As I recall, you're 'supposed' to get a level every 4 sessions, which is 13 fights or so). Sure, the DnD character will have, say, 6 times the BAB and more HP.. but they won't have really /grown/ in a non-numeric sense. Character points just make more sense as advancement in general. The rather hideously huge problem with levels is that it also means classes. Classes specialize. Exalted really are supposed to be good at everything, in a general sense (Hence why I tend to build more Protean Exalted to begin with)

I /do/ think Exalted would work better if they didn't have escalating Exp costs though, similar to how MnM handles it, of course, but eh. The specific answer to your question is that you get visibly better much faster, since you get like, 5 exp a session, when a Charm is something like 10 exp.

Well I'd argue it's perfectly possible to do a level system without classes and keep it modular and customizable, but that's a debate for another day.

At any rate, that does answer my question, and I'm not sure its quite to my taste, honestly. If I want to play a high-powered game I like the idea that one just gets objectively better than a basic low-power unit instead of having to buy up a bunch of different abilities with very little in the way of experience to show for it. The D&D example works better with casters or ToB where they are just objectively better than a lower-level character because of the abilities they acquire.

an kobold
2008-03-17, 04:32 PM
I would have much preferred a Mongoose publishing campaign along the lines of "You're not cleared for 4th Edition, citizen."

Rutee
2008-03-17, 04:58 PM
Well I'd argue it's perfectly possible to do a level system without classes and keep it modular and customizable, but that's a debate for another day.

At any rate, that does answer my question, and I'm not sure its quite to my taste, honestly. If I want to play a high-powered game I like the idea that one just gets objectively better than a basic low-power unit instead of having to buy up a bunch of different abilities with very little in the way of experience to show for it. The D&D example works better with casters or ToB where they are just objectively better than a lower-level character because of the abilities they acquire.
What the hell? You say "I dno't want people to get abilities, but /actual objective skill/ when they get stronger", then turn it around to say you'd rather get new abilities? Pick one, seriously. Exalted doesn't see the latter too much for a while because you already start at the apex of humanity for anything you care about (Looking at my newbie Exalted, there's quite a few 4s and 5s, though that's not /technically/ requisite). You back up your ridiculous skill with godlike powers, then move onto godlike skills, effectively.

Regardless, you really can't have a level based system without classes. You could package up Character Points with "Levels", but that wouldn't really be level-based, where the level actually is the basis of your power, rather then a measuring stick of it (I think of M+M foremost in my mind when I say this)

Oslecamo
2008-03-17, 05:20 PM
[QUOTE=Rutee;4070212
Regardless, you really can't have a level based system without classes. You could package up Character Points with "Levels", but that wouldn't really be level-based, where the level actually is the basis of your power, rather then a measuring stick of it (I think of M+M foremost in my mind when I say this)[/QUOTE]

Actually, the wotc designers said that 4e can easily be transformed into a classless system, where you everybody gets the same hp, proefeciencies and choice of skills and then goes cherry picking powers from any of the classes as ou level up. Geting weak powers from a "tree"(aka class) allow you to get the stronger powers of that tree later on.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-17, 06:09 PM
The thing about Exalted is that slow character growth is not an issue, because you are godlike from level one. There is no squishy ineffectual first level. A newly born Solar can handle almost any single threat in the realm. Only a handful of powerful Dragon Blooded exist that would be strong enough to take him one on one, the Sidereals (Who don't really like to get their hands dirty, the prissy ****es...), and the Abyssals, who really shouldn't show up too often.

Basically, from the moment you create your character you're worth about 50 soldiers in a fight, and every charm you buy with your experience just makes you that much nastier.

And yeah, after a couple hundred experience points Solars are terrifying.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-17, 06:09 PM
Actually, the wotc designers said that 4e can easily be transformed into a classless system,

Yes, I'm sure that's why they're paying so much explicit attention to class roles, class power sources, and class niches.

Indon
2008-03-17, 06:13 PM
Levels are crap for Exalted, or any other system where you're supposed to get good at something that isn't fighting, and make it a focus.

Exalted does have a de facto level stat, though: Permanent Essence.


Yes, I'm sure that's why they're paying so much explicit attention to class roles, class power sources, and class niches.

Since you won't be buying things like base attack bonus, and the save differential is minimal, and you don't roll hit dice, and almost everything is a power, I can see it easy. The only things you'd buy with XP would be powers, hit points, and base stat roll modifier.

Behold_the_Void
2008-03-17, 06:21 PM
What the hell? You say "I dno't want people to get abilities, but /actual objective skill/ when they get stronger", then turn it around to say you'd rather get new abilities? Pick one, seriously. Exalted doesn't see the latter too much for a while because you already start at the apex of humanity for anything you care about (Looking at my newbie Exalted, there's quite a few 4s and 5s, though that's not /technically/ requisite). You back up your ridiculous skill with godlike powers, then move onto godlike skills, effectively.

Regardless, you really can't have a level based system without classes. You could package up Character Points with "Levels", but that wouldn't really be level-based, where the level actually is the basis of your power, rather then a measuring stick of it (I think of M+M foremost in my mind when I say this)

You misunderstood. I want them to get a wealth of abilities whenever they progress in power instead of having to buy them all individually after several sessions. Basically, point-based systems where you buy individual abilities with experience after several sessions annoy me for high-powered games where I want each progression in power to be dramatic. Which means abilities, overall capacity in and out of combat, the works.

And levels as an agent for character points is indeed what I was talking about, but the level still drives the power progression in many ways (the level of the skills you can buy, the power of your abilities, etc.)

EvilElitest
2008-03-17, 07:27 PM
I'd guess WW's strategy is to capitalize on the librarians. You know, that guy... Every group has at least one. He HAS to have his own copy of whatever the group is playing at current, and he's not the GM.

I should know, I am that guy.

I'd assume WW is hoping to get a bunch of sales from the Librarian types when their groups give the game a whirl due to the offer...

we should start our own guild, everyone else has one
from
EE

Rutee
2008-03-17, 07:47 PM
Exalted does have a de facto level stat, though: Permanent Essence.

<Power Level> isn't much of a level stat in WW. I could see the argument better in nWoD (Since it factors into your <Power> Dice pools), but in Exalted, until Ess. 6, it mostly just serves as a <Fuel> battery. The argument's a bit better for Sidereals as well, since their Excellency cap is equal to their Essence. At Ess. 6, things go crazy, because you get access to crazy powerful Charms, and your caps go up, but I don't know if that really qualifies it as a "level".


You misunderstood. I want them to get a wealth of abilities whenever they progress in power instead of having to buy them all individually after several sessions. Basically, point-based systems where you buy individual abilities with experience after several sessions annoy me for high-powered games where I want each progression in power to be dramatic. Which means abilities, overall capacity in and out of combat, the works.
Just give out a wealth of experience at once so they get a bunch of abilities.

Behold_the_Void
2008-03-17, 08:09 PM
Just give out a wealth of experience at once so they get a bunch of abilities.

Doable of course, I'm not saying it isn't. I just like a system to be set up to accommodate that kind of progression already (especially if giving out extra experience means its harder to balance encounters, having not played it I'm not sure how that functions). If I'm going to be spending money on a system, I generally do so with the intent that I'll play it more or less as written without having to mod it - after all, making it work is the designer's job, not mine. If the system doesn't work how I want it to work for what I'm trying to do, I'm more than happy to give my money to someone else.

Not to say that I'm completely unwilling to try the system out. Just saying that gripe right there is a rather large one for me, because of how I like my games to feel when I'm playing them. Sure, you can tell me the Solars are amazing and awesome. But when I have to spend two or more sessions to get one ability, I'm not necessarily feeling the awesome I was expecting.

Not to say you can't build awesome characters with point-based systems of course, but it's a matter of expectations and gaming psychology.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-17, 08:43 PM
Believe me, unless you have a RBGM who's throwing unrealistic (According to the fluff anyway) encounters at you, you WILL feel powerful playing Exalted.

MUCH more so than when playing D&D. You can end most enemies with a single attack, and the system is DESIGNED to work that way. It's hard to NOT feel awesome when you wade through 10 men like they were hardly there.

Basically, GMs are encouraged to use largish numbers of mooks instead of big baddies. At least for most fights. And the BBEG fights are usually epic. It's not hard to balance either, you just build opponents with an equivalent amount of experience and they'll be a strong challenge for that PC. Or bump it up a little to make them a challenge for the whole party.

If you like big jumps all at once, that's fine, but believe me, there's no way you can possibly not feel powerful playing a Solar Exalted. It's like getting to start a D&D game at level 10, and most of your opponents are level 2-5.

Think kung fu movie. The protagonist is never in danger except when his archrival shows up. Anyone else is just a minor obstacle in his path, at best.

Rutee
2008-03-17, 09:42 PM
Quick Note: It's actually hard to make BBEG fights in Exalted, if you follow the PC rules for them. No, seriously. It's probably easier then in DnD, but in general you need a decent bit more exp on an enemy to make them legitimate threats to a party. There's not really equivalents to Save or Lose or whatnot either, mercifully. That's the part that experience helps a /ton/ with.

EvilElitest
2008-03-17, 10:02 PM
Believe me, unless you have a RBGM who's throwing unrealistic (According to the fluff anyway) encounters at you, you WILL feel powerful playing Exalted.

MUCH more so than when playing D&D. You can end most enemies with a single attack, and the system is DESIGNED to work that way. It's hard to NOT feel awesome when you wade through 10 men like they were hardly there.

Basically, GMs are encouraged to use largish numbers of mooks instead of big baddies. At least for most fights. And the BBEG fights are usually epic. It's not hard to balance either, you just build opponents with an equivalent amount of experience and they'll be a strong challenge for that PC. Or bump it up a little to make them a challenge for the whole party.

If you like big jumps all at once, that's fine, but believe me, there's no way you can possibly not feel powerful playing a Solar Exalted. It's like getting to start a D&D game at level 10, and most of your opponents are level 2-5.

Think kung fu movie. The protagonist is never in danger except when his archrival shows up. Anyone else is just a minor obstacle in his path, at best.

seems kinda boring, where is the fun without hte risk
from
EE

Cade
2008-03-17, 10:08 PM
seems kinda boring, where is the fun without hte risk
from
EE

There is risk, it just involves being swamped by swarms of enemies instead of a few similarly powerful opponents. Frankly, everything I've heard sounds exciting. I just don't play these games since i school-switched, is all.

EvilElitest
2008-03-17, 10:16 PM
There is risk, it just involves being swamped by swarms of enemies instead of a few similarly powerful opponents. Frankly, everything I've heard sounds exciting. I just don't play these games since i school-switched, is all.

No the whole Kun-Fu thing. I mean it sounds like a well devolved system, and it might surprise me, just when i watch those films i never feel very any suspense when the good guy fights all hte mooks because i have no fear of him/her losing
from
EE

Cubey
2008-03-17, 10:23 PM
No the whole Kun-Fu thing. I mean it sounds like a well devolved system, and it might surprise me, just when i watch those films i never feel very any suspense when the good guy fights all hte mooks because i have no fear of him/her losing
from
EE

You'd be surprised - with enough mooks in Exalted attacking you at once, you're in trouble even if you use defensive charms. Unless you're really experienced, but then simply the definition of "mook" gets updated - instead of mortals, it's monsters, weaker demons or spirits and, in extreme cases, Dragon-Blooded (the weakest type of Exalted). You still fight mortals then, but mostly to show off your power or in a really epic scale, like 100 soldiers at once. As for "boss battles" - it is true that a single hit can end a fight. But that hit has to actually connect, and what makes battles exciting in Exalted is that you have to plan to not get hit while trying to hit the enemy at the same time AND not running out of Essence (Magic Points, more or less). That makes many tactics viable - you can try a reckless anime-like all out attack, but if it misses you're screwed, you can try to slowly drain the enemy from Essence by making them use defensive charms while conserving your own Essence, try an unconventional tactic and so on. At the same time having in regard the fact that if you do something very cool, it will succeed more than mundane actions!

Rutee
2008-03-17, 11:04 PM
If you feel suspense based on doubt whenever the hero fights mooks in /any/ movie, you are a very naive person. I'm sorry, but if you have any expectation of mook danger after 10 years on the planet, you don't pay /any/ attention to fiction. Ever.

Quick note on awesomeness to add to Cubey's, since this is an Exalted thread (So I'm actually justified in going in detail), it' snot just more likely to succeed; It's a recharge. Either you can get a few motes of Ess. back, or if it's a really good stunt, XP or Willpower.


There is risk, it just involves being swamped by swarms of enemies instead of a few similarly powerful opponents. Frankly, everything I've heard sounds exciting. I just don't play these games since i school-switched, is all.
Mmm... depends on the 'lesser opponents'. Frankly, if you have Flow Like Blood or Fivefold Bulwark (And you won't for a while, if you're /not/ a combat monkey), you can fight an arbitrarily high number of Mortals for days and see absolutely no danger. On the other hand, Cubey is correct; Third Circle Demons, Dragonblooded, or some other form of ascended peon can still threaten you.

Sliceydicey
2008-03-17, 11:42 PM
Exalted is a great game packed with a bunch of awesome rules. And it has a pretty sweet setting too. I would highly recommend it to anyone looking for an epic fantasy RPG.

Here are some of the things I think are particularly neat about it:

1. Your character is insanely powerful: The charms you have access to are generally so awesome that you rarely feel like your just another fighter. Even when you're facing people as awesome as yourself, there's still something really fun about unleashing 6 attacks in a round, rolling 20 dice in an attack, or negating all the damage from a powerful attack without even flinching. All these things are possible at the beginning of the game, which is one of the strengths (and weaknesses) of white wolf games, in general. Your character starts out totally bad ass and then gradually becomes more powerful or widens their expertise.

2. Charms for EVERYTHING: Every ability (skill) has a whole charm tree dedicated to it. I think this is a really neat idea. While obviously a lot of people are going to go straight for the melee and martial arts charms, it can be fun to dabble in, say, a few Linguistics Charms or maybe a couple Sail Charms. It's neat because you can still be pretty awesome in combat while boasting a modest array of other abilities. I had a character who was a decent martial artist and also had a bunch of fun Linguistics charms that were useful for swaying people to his cause out of combat.

3. Stunt Dice: It's a minor feature of the game, but a fun one. Basically stunt dice are bonus dice the narrator gives to characters who describe their actions well and make good use of the environment during combat. By performing stuns characters can also get away with crazy or near impossible feats. A character might get a 1 die stunt for merely describing their action in great detail, while they might get a 3 die stunt for a breathtaking description that wows everyone at the table. Performing a stunt is also a way for a character to "recharge" their abilities, so there's a lot of incentive to do them. The effect this has is generally to encourage people to use a lot of flair when describing what they do and really try to get everyone involved and behind their actions. It also creates some friendly meta competition where everyone tries to outdo each other in their descriptions, which is generally good fun. A lot of games probably have similar systems, but in exalted they are explicitly a part of the game and have concrete benefits.

4. Many different types of "combats": Besides regular old combat, there are also rules for mass combat between, say, armies, or maybe an army against a couple solar exalted... Furthermore, there are nifty rules for social combat, which is like heated epic debates, and stirring speeches and the like, which is pretty fun if handled well (at the appropriate time and with a little narrator finesse). Finally, there are Social Mass Combat which are between whole groups of people and take place over days, weeks, or months. So if you want to sully the reputation of the local king, you might start a massive rumor campaign that takes months to come to fruition and culminates in him losing the throne (or keeping it and ordering your execution or challenging you to a duel, or what have you).

5. Awesome Setting: The setting is very involved and supports many different styles of play. The general idea is that the players are Solar Exalted, insanely powerful beings and rulers of the first age, who are now being hunted down by their servants, the dragon blooded exalted, modestly powerful beings who outnumber them 1000/1, in the second age. So you get to vacillate from flaunting your powers and being a bad ass, to being secretive and trying to avoid notice, from taking on an entire army with just you and a couple of your friends, to making shady alliances and subtly manipulating people to your side.


As for the white wolf deal, I did find it subtly annoying that there was all that talk about "graduating you game" and what not, but really, did we expect white wold Not to be pretentious about their product? That's what makes them white wolf! That's what makes playing world of darkness and exalted so much fun; you get to take yourself so damn seriously some of the time. And then you realize that your pretending to be a vampire or some nearly invincible god like being and you get over yourself.

Also, I think the deal can be taken two ways. One way is that they're trying to steal d&d fans away from the product they have loved and cherished for so long during a transition. Another is that they're taking the opportunity to interest people in a great game by letting them trade a book they won't need in a couple of months for a book they might end up using for years to come. It's probably a little but of both, but so what? I know I'll be partaking in the deal because I could always use another copy of the exalted book and I am almost certain I will NEVER use my 3.5 player's handbook once 4th edition comes out.

Bleen
2008-03-17, 11:58 PM
You guys really make me want to play this. Meanies. :smallfrown:

Rutee
2008-03-18, 12:05 AM
See this is how you know White Wolf marketting is done by monkeys. A bunch of people sitting around on a forum made their product sound better then /they/ did.

Tengu
2008-03-18, 12:18 AM
And by the way, feel free to check this game out. It really is as good as people around here make it seem.

As for monkeys... well, they work for bananas. The money WW saves that way is used on these comics you have at the start of each section in 2nd Ed. books.

Ascension
2008-03-18, 01:13 AM
3. Stunt Dice: *snip*

Stunting is the one aspect of White Wolf stuff that I think is totally awesome. I played a one-session d20 Modern game where the DM allowed us to make high-DC DEX and/or drive checks to do essentially the same thing, but White Wolf just handles it better. I wanted to get in on a demo session of Scion that day instead of the d20 Modern game, but the event got canceled. Still, for a d20 game with 6th level characters, we got pretty darn epic (zombies attacked a zombie walk, we went in without knowing the innocents from the real zeds, ended up tangling with the police, an ex-con member of our group ruined the getaway vehicle by flubbing a drive roll while trying to do a bootlegger's turn... good times, good times. Oh, and I stole a cop car. And got grenaded by my allies three times.).


5. Awesome Setting: The setting is very involved

...and that's the aspect I dislike most about White Wolf games. The way I look at it, you get more bang for your buck out of a basic system which you can refluff to produce a zillion different settings than an incredibly specific setting, even if it is awesome. If White Wolf sold a "Storytelling System" core book and provided the nWoD, Exalted, and Scion setting-specific stuff as add-on books, I'd definitely be a customer. I just prefer for my fluff and my crunch to be separable.

Tengu
2008-03-18, 01:36 AM
...and that's the aspect I dislike most about White Wolf games. The way I look at it, you get more bang for your buck out of a basic system which you can refluff to produce a zillion different settings than an incredibly specific setting, even if it is awesome. If White Wolf sold a "Storytelling System" core book and provided the nWoD, Exalted, and Scion setting-specific stuff as add-on books, I'd definitely be a customer. I just prefer for my fluff and my crunch to be separable.

But Exalted is such a huge world, and such a Fantasy Kitchen Sink to the boot, that you can have any type of game in it anyway, short of space opera. Not to mention that you can play Exalted in a different setting, you just have to either remove essence and charms, essentially playing Heroic Mortals, or replace them with powers more suitable to the setting you are going to play in.

Ascension
2008-03-18, 01:43 AM
Point taken. I just generally prefer for my setting not to be determined for me. I don't really know about Exalted in particular, but I remember when I was reading through some Scion material my thought was "Wow, this sounds awesome... for a single campaign. Maybe a few more." White Wolf settings usually just aren't general enough for me to consider using them as my primary RPG system. An amusing diversion, yes, but not my primary system.

Rutee
2008-03-18, 03:43 AM
Point taken. I just generally prefer for my setting not to be determined for me. I don't really know about Exalted in particular, but I remember when I was reading through some Scion material my thought was "Wow, this sounds awesome... for a single campaign. Maybe a few more." White Wolf settings usually just aren't general enough for me to consider using them as my primary RPG system. An amusing diversion, yes, but not my primary system.

The logic seems weird to me for some reason though. You don't 'get more bang for your buck'. WW books (Or at least, Exalted) is like, about twice the size of the PHB. You could argue that it's smaller then the PHB, MM, and DMG put together, but you just spent more then twice the money for only about 1 and a half times more actual page space :P

The Crunch is definitely written for the setting.. but the Core book, to say the least, is also the least dependent on the setting. And Solars in particular run on no assumptions besides "We're Epic God-Kings". The crunch as a whole stands alone fine. Though, the idea of only playing in a given setting once is odd to me, as a principle. I don't generally seek to return to a setting, but I don't generally seek to avoid either.

Incidentally, on portability, the hardest time I had in working the WoD books into a particular game I'm going to run in the future was /reading/ them all. The actual adaptation wasn't that hard. Though it didn't hurt that some of hte mechanics made sense anyway. Though, I can't help but wonder if MnM 2e wouldn't have been easier.. hm.

Terraoblivion
2008-03-18, 05:02 AM
And once the Wyld enters the picture you can even play space opera in Exalted. Granted it will be a fantasy styled space opera most likely, but even so. The game is not really well-suited for it, but you can if you absolutely want. More realistically you can go through pretty much all of classic fantasy styles with as much or as little tie to the published setting material as you want. I have around four different Exalted campaigns that i wish i had time to play as it is, all of them quite different. More if the ones i would like to play, but are lower priority are added. And it covers everything from office politics among divine bureaucrats to survival horror as ordinary people.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-18, 06:03 AM
I remember at one point there was a discussion on the WW forums about creating a homebrew modern Exalted setting by replacing the Archery charm tree with a Firearms one...

Selrahc
2008-03-18, 06:29 AM
If White Wolf sold a "Storytelling System" core book and provided the nWoD, Exalted, and Scion setting-specific stuff as add-on books, I'd definitely be a customer. I just prefer for my fluff and my crunch to be separable.

I think they've tried for adaption with the new world of darkness core book.

Theres a few creepy stories ranging the genres from tomb robbing to detective work to serial killer hunting to monster fighting, and then the rest of the book from page 32 to page 219 is almost pure crunch.

Its pretty much your generic core book, that gives the system without the setting. And can be used to run games perfectly fine in many different situations.

The setting is pretty much implanted in the other NWoD "Core" books , with Vampire, Mage, Werewolf et all, while the mainline supplements remain fairly generic(Rules for shapeshifters, advice on creating artifacts and magic items, the insane, adventure books, zombies and other antagonists, etc.)

However... its not like Scion or Exalted. This is a combat light, high mortality rules setting. You'll be playing a normal human, and anything other than that would be a houserule. So it obviously wouldn't apply to high powered player characters from say... a superhero setting. Also, the derangement system makes combat likely to leave you menatlly ill if your characters want to do some hack and slash.(Although thats an easy houserule to fix if you want more combat)

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 07:08 AM
If White Wolf sold a "Storytelling System" core book and provided the nWoD, Exalted, and Scion setting-specific stuff as add-on books, I'd definitely be a customer.

That's essentially what they have been doing for nWOD.

Also, in any WW book since first edition, fluff and crunch are easily separated, in that you can simply ignore "section one" of the book (which deals with setting) and focus on "section two" (which deals with rules).

Rutee
2008-03-18, 01:40 PM
That's essentially what they have been doing for nWOD.

Also, in any WW book since first edition, fluff and crunch are easily separated, in that you can simply ignore "section one" of the book (which deals with setting) and focus on "section two" (which deals with rules).

Well, yes and no. WW mechanics /are/ written seperately, mostly, but they're also written with some setting expectations (Most notably that the world in question appears normal, but once you broach the surface, things become much weirder (and often scarier). Actually, that's not a mechanical assumption.. the only mechanics assumption I can think of offhand in nWoD core is the Morality mechanic (Mostly because it's tied into insanity)

Indon
2008-03-18, 02:35 PM
The game is not really well-suited for it, but you can if you absolutely want.

I have a friend who has a half-finished adaptation of Exalted for the Mortal Kombat universe.

Ascension
2008-03-18, 03:55 PM
Okay, sorry, I have a tendency to say things on forums without much research to back me up. I guess I would be willing to try any/all of these games, I'm willing to try practically anything. I just don't expect that I'd be as enamored with them as some. I really think D&D's on the right track with the way they treat setting info... there's just enough setting that (unlike something completely setting-free, like GURPS) you can play without going to the effort of making something up whole-cloth if you're feeling lazy, but since it has little to no impact on the actual mechanics, you can juggle fluff at will with practically no effort at all. I haven't fully read any White Wolf system, I've just always gotten the impression that their story was a more major factor.

Rutee
2008-03-18, 04:04 PM
Okay, sorry, I have a tendency to say things on forums without much research to back me up. I guess I would be willing to try any/all of these games, I'm willing to try practically anything. I just don't expect that I'd be as enamored with them as some. I really think D&D's on the right track with the way they treat setting info... there's just enough setting that (unlike something completely setting-free, like GURPS) you can play without going to the effort of making something up whole-cloth if you're feeling lazy, but since it has little to no impact on the actual mechanics, you can juggle fluff at will with practically no effort at all. I haven't fully read any White Wolf system, I've just always gotten the impression that their story was a more major factor.

No, DnD's 'setting' is actually pretty ingrained into the rules, in the same way Exalted's are. It's just less obvious because it's 'standard fantasy'. DnD pretty much expects to be used for medieval fantasy, where the melee aren't. (Fantastic that is). I don't really count splatbook spam as part of the system per se, in this sense. DnD as a system makes an extremely high number of setting assumptions, without /actually/ making a setting. I actually don't mind that much, since it's still mostly setting neutral. Genre-specific, more then a bit, but setting neutral.

Now, DnD /is/ less specific then Exalted, but setting specific itself isn't really a weakness. Particularly not since Solar crunch depends very little on the actual setting (As one can expect).

Terraoblivion
2008-03-18, 04:14 PM
The amount of books needed for setting purposes has also dramatically decreased with the ending of OWoD. I know that i tended to lose out big time whenever i played a game using any of those systems because i never found their metaplot worth reading and so couldn't powergame the fluff. NWoD generally offers various suggestions for what you could do and details that you can use, but nothing concrete saying specifically what way it actually is. And the format of the Exalted setting is pretty much the same as that of any D&D setting, except that the core rules is in the same book as the basic setting information. And even so you can mostly steal solars and bring them elsewhere and can definitely use the rules for heroic mortals elsewhere, there will be a few issues with solars but not too many. Now sidereals would be tricky i think. And as has already been set the core OWoD book is pretty much like core D&D except that it is more explicit about genre assumptions.

GammaPaladin
2008-03-18, 04:57 PM
The thing I like about WW books compared to DnD books is organization. It's usually very easy to find what you're looking for. They don't mix fluff in with crunch, and both are extremely well laid out, most of the time.

DnD books on the other hand can be... challenging.

EvilElitest
2008-03-21, 08:03 PM
The thing I like about WW books compared to DnD books is organization. It's usually very easy to find what you're looking for. They don't mix fluff in with crunch, and both are extremely well laid out, most of the time.

DnD books on the other hand can be... challenging.

From what i've read, i lik the amount of effort put into personality, rather nice
from
EE