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Rift_Wolf
2008-03-18, 06:52 AM
I just want to check if this would fall under everyone's definition of a munchkin.

In our current campaign we're protecting a city from demonic pirates. As the party wizard, I was expecting to be scuppering the ships before they landed, however the party decided to fight them on the docks, making my spell choice... sub-optimal, shall we say.
In the party we have a Rogue 10 (Leader), Fighter 8/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Barbarian 1, Cleric 5/Stormlord 4, Paladin 9, Wizard 9 (Me) and a Bard 5/Dirgesinger 4. We're currently facing 5 Vrocks (2 got lucky with their summon ability), two of which are keeping the party busy while the three others dance (With mirror image on to make things even tougher). I've used up most of my spells on buffs and used the last of my magic missiles to destroy the mirror images round one vrock. Two of the vrocks are badly injured, but the three dancing are untouched.
That's the situation as was left at the end of our last session. Needless to say priority one is stop the vrocks dancing otherwise it's tpk. The fighter, paladin and cleric have been doing their jobs in melee (Though the paladin and fighter now have too many feats/abilities/spells/weapons choices and it took the paladin five minutes to work out how much damage his ridiculous array did), the rogue is currently working on flanking one of the vrocks, and I'm taking big risks polymorphing my familiar and sending it into melee to flank for everyone (I was kinda out of choices, it was either me or the familiar and the familiar was already polymorphed due to my ship scuppering tactics).

Meanwhile the bard has been using his ring of invisibility to stay out of the fight. He's been casting buffs on himself like Focus Enchantment (Whatever that does), Bull Strength (He now has a +1 bonus) and Heroism. He currently wields a +1 sacred holy water sprinkler (which he also wants evil outsider bane on as well) that does lots and lots of damage to only evil outsiders.
Now, would you say the bards tactic is munchkinism? My thoughts are the fight probably would've been resolved by now if, instead of buffing himself up to be almost a fighter, the buffs had gone onto the fighter, as well as his weapon. That would've been the teamplay way of solving the fight. Instead he's playing the game as if to show off what he can do if he uses this rule, that rule, etc. Bearing in mind he's also got +35 or something ridiculous in diplomacy (The DM gave him one chance to use this ability, but has ruled that he can't use it before every encounter to make the enemies like him.) I'm beginning to think he likes to play purely to show how the rules can be bent rather than because he likes the game (Which is a bit of a shame as he's been given quite a few good roleplay situations with me, essentially a game of 'Don't let the paladin find out', which have been fun and he's been good in. Sadly he seems to enjoy roleplaying characters who antagonise other players)
Thoughts? Other than TLDR?

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 07:06 AM
Well, I wouldn't call him a munchkin per se. That, as you say, the paladin and fighter have "too many feats/abilities/spells/weapons choices" and "ridiculous arrays" sounds more munchkinlike than a bard that spends three rounds buffing himself.

The bard's tactics strike me as (1) anti-social and (2) ineffective. Perhaps he wants to be a munchkin but is not very good at it?

Note that the vrock's screech and spores would work on the invisibile bard.

Rift_Wolf
2008-03-18, 07:15 AM
Well, I wouldn't call him a munchkin per se. That, as you say, the paladin and fighter have "too many feats/abilities/spells/weapons choices" and "ridiculous arrays" sounds more munchkinlike than a bard that spends three rounds buffing himself.

The bard's tactics strike me as (1) anti-social and (2) ineffective. Perhaps he wants to be a munchkin but is not very good at it?

Note that the vrock's screech and spores would work on the invisibile bard.

I should've used a different word to 'array'. I meant the array of spells, feats and weapon abilities he was using rather than stat array.
I think the particular attack in question was a Smite Evil mounted charge with good aligned lance and Rhino rush. He also got confused as to whether he was attacking with his lance or his +4 holy longsword, and I think he somehow merged the two into one attack in his mind.
The fighter is now stamped as ridiculous. He needs a calculator to work out his damage. He now has a spiked chain and his favourite move is momentum swings flurry of strikes. The number of abilities he has is now beyond his ken to fully utilise, as he can't even remember I cast haste on the party, let alone activate his rage.
As for the screech and spores ability, they seem like minor annoyances compared to 20d6 damage in two rounds unless the party starts breaking up the dance.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 07:48 AM
"That word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

There's no munchkinry of any sort going on. (Well, unless you count the weird descriptions of the Paladin and Fighter. How exactly are they breaking the rules, and why? Why does a Fighter have rage and flurry of blows that works with a spiked chain?)

The Bard's player just sucks at team tactics, which is kinda sad considering Bards are supposed to deal damage indirectly, by using bard song to buff their companions. He also appears to be completely ineffective. There's no way a bard can buff himself to be equal to a Fighter in melee. (They're not straight, unoptimized Clerics, you know!) How is he bending the rules?

playswithfire
2008-03-18, 08:41 AM
Why does a Fighter have rage and flurry of blows that works with a spiked chain?)


I think because he has one level of barbarian and one level of exotic weapons master, which he presumably used for 'flurry of strikes,' granting him one extra attack with his spiked chain; all attacks taking a -2 penalty



In the party we have a Rogue 10 (Leader), Fighter 8/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Barbarian 1, Cleric 5/Stormlord 4, Paladin 9, Wizard 9 (Me) and a Bard 5/Dirgesinger 4


I'm leading toward bad tactics and/or a belief that the fighter and paladin are doing fine so he'll buff himself up to take out the ones they aren't fighting

sikyon
2008-03-18, 08:43 AM
Sometimes people don't like to buff others, they want to buff themselves. Makes sense, in the heat of a fight. I'd just call the bard being selfish.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 12:46 PM
Teach me to read, will you? I've got a poison ring for you...

Starbuck_II
2008-03-18, 01:45 PM
The Bard's player just sucks at team tactics, which is kinda sad considering Bards are supposed to deal damage indirectly, by using bard song to buff their companions. He also appears to be completely ineffective. There's no way a bard can buff himself to be equal to a Fighter in melee. (They're not straight, unoptimized Clerics, you know!) How is he bending the rules?

I disagree, can't the Bard cast Improvisation: granting him 18 luck points to boosts his attack 4 times by 4 (or some other split of them). That is a nice 1st level buff.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 01:50 PM
Sure, but he's still not going to become the equivalent of a Fighter of similar level (much less the equivalent of a Fighter of similar level who's being buffed by the Bard).

Kyeudo
2008-03-18, 02:26 PM
He is performing neither Munchkinism or Optimization. He is simply being stupid. His buffs should have been cast before the fight started (you make it seem that everyone had some time with which to cast buffs), and he should have moved to a good combat position within the first or second round of the fight.

His build is obviously not optimized. Most melee bards only need a buff or two to top a typical fighter, most support bards would have the party owning face by now, and the obscene score in diplomacy just doesn't work well in a real game because DMs strike down the "I can make anyone, even the devil, my friend" tactic.

Munchkinism is when a person engages in jerkish behavior to obtain stupid levels of power. This often means they cheat, lie, and steal for more power. Optimization is obtaining large amounts of power through legitimate application of the rules. Your bard isn't doing either.

Aquillion
2008-03-18, 02:50 PM
Most melee bards only need a buff or two to top a typical fighter, most support bards would have the party owning face by now, and the obscene score in diplomacy just doesn't work well in a real game because DMs strike down the "I can make anyone, even the devil, my friend" tactic.While most DMs won't let you use it to just bypass everything, it isn't as though it's that hard to get, either. It can be worth having if your DM ever lets you use it at all (which they should -- a high diplomacy ought to be at least as useful as, say, a high move silently skill. It is a fairly important skill.)