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View Full Version : Double-checking Gestalt



Brauron
2008-03-18, 01:08 PM
So, the game I've been playing has just become a Gestalt game (I scrapped the Human Sword and Board fighter I was using in order to build a fresh character from scratch). This isn't G's game, for those who recall my earlier thread on building a charge-based character, but a parallel game I was playing, DM'd by my friend J, and much more enjoyable.

I now have a Wild Elf Druid/Monk 5, with a Fleshraker Dinosaur (MM3) as my animal companion.

I've been told I can use my monk abilities while in Wild Shape, but I was told this by someone who was a bit of a power-gamer, with a history of "forgetting" rules inconvenient to him. So I just want to double check to make sure it actually works that way.

Because if I wildshape into another Fleshraker, and flurry of blows with my poison claw attacks...that's kind of ridiculously awesome.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-18, 01:14 PM
Yes, yes it is. Gestalt works like that just fine, though I recommend PrCing out into warshaper at 6th level, maybe snagging MoMF or Nature's Warrior on the monk side.

graystone
2008-03-18, 01:41 PM
Only one snag with that. You flurry with your unarmed strikes NOT your poison claw attacks. Now you could make those attacks at a -5 (or -2 if you have multiattack) in addition to the flurry.

Zincorium
2008-03-18, 01:43 PM
Unarmed strikes, flurry of blows, and natural attacks are a very complicated subject.

Basically, here's how it goes:

It's generally accepted that you can make unarmed strikes regardless of your current form. The reasons against use such twisted logic I can't believe they say it with a straight face.

You can use flurry of blows with unarmed strikes, but cannot flurry with natural weapons. They are not specific monk weapons. This also is the case with stunning fist and quivering palm, not a monk weapon means no special attacks.

You can, however, use all natural weapons as secondary natural attacks after making your initial attack with unarmed strikes. Instead of taking some attacks at your full BAB and others at -5, you take all of them at -5 and do half strength damage with each.

All non-weapon based special abilities work just fine when wildshaped.


Talk to your DM and see what he thinks, there's no other way to confirm what will or will not work in that particular game. What I've put down is what is the rules as they are written.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 01:43 PM
Most of the abilities would work, but remember that "natural attack" is not the same as "unarmed attack" - they're two different terms. So you wouldn't be able to use your increased unarmed damage, flurry of blows, etc. when wildshaped into an animal.

Edit: Yeah, okay, like Zincorium points out, it's dependent on whether your DM allows you to use "unarmed strike" while in animal form. I sure wouldn't.

Chronos
2008-03-18, 07:38 PM
My interpretation is that, unless you're in a form which is normally allowed to combine natural weapons and manufactured weapons (as indicated by the "Full Attack" entry including both), you can't combine Unarmed Strikes with natural weapons. So you can either use monk iterative attacks (including Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, etc.) with your unarmed strike as your full attack, or you can use the Fleshraker's own attack routine (one attack each with six different natural weapons, plus the poison) as your full attack, but not both. The Fleshraker's attack routine is probably superior, until you get to very high levels.

You would, however, still get your speed increase, good Reflex save, and AC boost, though, all of which are worthwhile.

graystone
2008-03-18, 08:03 PM
"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

So since unarmed attacks can be treated as manufactured attacks you can combine your natural attacks. It's silly to look at the monster listing because the monster most times can't hold a weapon (or isn't smart enough to).