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doliest
2008-03-18, 01:25 PM
I have a very simple question-why are elves supposed to be so good at magic? They get a dex bonus & a con deduction, that means they have on average a below base concentration score, and the dex bonus hints at a thief-based class like...rogue. They don't have any real magic stuff aside from a sleep immunity, which isn't all that major. So can anyone tell me if they ever said why elfs are some kind of super mages?(supposedly)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-18, 01:27 PM
Short answer:WotC is full of idiots.
Long answer:Wotc doesn't understand how their own crunch works because WotC is a bunch of idiots.

Starbuck_II
2008-03-18, 01:33 PM
I have a very simple question-why are elves supposed to be so good at magic? They get a dex bonus & a con deduction, that means they have on average a below base concentration score, and the dex bonus hints at a thief-based class like...rogue. They don't have any real magic stuff aside from a sleep immunity, which isn't all that major. So can anyone tell me if they ever said why elfs are some kind of super mages?(supposedly)

Acfually, that isn't right.

Favored Classes are not what you are best at. unlwess Humans are the bestest at everything (and yes, bestest isn't a word)

Favored class= I can multiclass and still remember how to do my old thing without issue.

See, when one multiclasses theiretically you sre splitting your attention. Thus, a Wizard 1/Fighter 3 Halfing can't remember how to maintain his magic good enough so he takes exp penalty.

But the same class, but a Dwarf or elf has a no issue.


Favored classes are classes you can muticlass out of or into and forget about them while pursuing other things. That is why they never give you Exp penalty due to level difference between classes.

The Rose Dragon
2008-03-18, 01:35 PM
Basically, it all comes down to this. Elves have long, long, long lives. During which they can study a lot of magic. Then again, that's the reason why they are good at everything (e.g. Thief - he steals things that are nailed down, things that don't exist, and things from the future).

But also, elves can't be good at anything, because a race that on average has a Constitution penalty will probably die quicker than everybody else. Despite their long life spans.

So, yes, WotC are a bunch of idiots.

PaladinFreak
2008-03-18, 01:36 PM
IMO, mainly because Tolkein's Elves were very magical creatures, and no one has seen any reason to change that.

To address the crunch part of it, while Elves have poorer Concentration checks and fewer hit points, they are harder to hit, and have a better attack bonus on rays, orbs, and the like.

In the end, it is simply a matter of opinion.

And Sstoopidtallkid, I don't think that WotC are idiots. Even if they are, this is not the example you would hold up to show it.

Human Paragon 3
2008-03-18, 01:36 PM
The idea that elves make great wizards was actually embedded in the fluff of 2nd edition. I think it has something to do with how mystical and fey-like they are. Honestly, elves have a bit of an identity crisis in D&D that is thankfully being resolved in 4th edition. Now, elves have been split into 2 races:

1: The Elves. They are what you would call woodsy elves. Like their counterpart, the Eladrin, they originate from the feywild, but they chose to come to the prime because they love the forest so darn much. They make great rangers and, interestingly, clerics because they get a wis bonus now I think.

2: The Eledarin. These are the elves that stayed in the feywild. They are mysterious masters of the arcane, and even get to teleport once per encounter. Spiffy.

EDIT: Ninja'd! Yes, Tolkein set the bar high with his elves.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 01:36 PM
Because that's the fluff. Elves / fey are innately magical in various mythologies, Tolkien's elves were magically talented (of course, the magic of Middle Earth tended to be pretty subtle), and it kinda stuck.

Don't ask why they get a Constitution penalty, considering the elves of Middle Earth were just as strong and hardy as any high man (or more so, even), and definitely stronger and tougher than common men. (Of course, Middle Earth elves would have serious Level Adjustment in D&D.)

SilverClawShift
2008-03-18, 01:38 PM
I have a very simple question-why are elves supposed to be so good at magic? They get a dex bonus & a con deduction, that means they have on average a below base concentration score, and the dex bonus hints at a thief-based class like...rogue. They don't have any real magic stuff aside from a sleep immunity, which isn't all that major. So can anyone tell me if they ever said why elfs are some kind of super mages?(supposedly)

- Elves have DEX bonuses because they have naturally lithe, agile builds. They have CON penalties because that agile body type is naturally less durable.
- Elves are traditionally considered mages because elven culture idealizes arcane magical might above other things. Elves are inclined by their society towards becoming spellcasters, because elven civilization looks up to spellcasters the way modern civilization looks up to doctors (i.e. "he be really smart").

Those two statements are not mutually exclusive. They're both true at the same time. I really doubt anyone at WOTC honestly forgot which stats apply to spellcasting. Elves could have an INT penalty and a STR bonus, but if elven children grow up seeing that being a Wizard is the best thing they can do with their life, you're gonna get a lot of elven wizards.

The better question is, why don't racial selections have two sets of abilities: Inborn, and Cultural?

A dwarf raised by humans probably isn't going to grow up running anti-giant military drills, and probably shouldn't get the AC bonus against them. They'd still have darkvision though, for example.

Frosty
2008-03-18, 01:46 PM
Elves are supposed to be masters at wizardry and magic...but you know what's funny? Your average elf studies DECADES upon DECADES before maturing and going out into the world as a 1st level adventurer. So, at the taven (aptly-named Broken Record), 4 fledging adventurers meet up. Two are wizards. The elf is about 100 years old and has mastered the arcane arts of magic missile. The human wizard is 20 and has mastered the same thing.

Now who is smarter and more in tune with magic?

Starsinger
2008-03-18, 01:56 PM
Elves are good with magic because it's a throw back from the old days when elves were gishes in a can. Likewise, a Dwarf's favorite class is fighter because older edition dwarves were fighters with slight differences. As for hobbits/halflings and rogues.

WalkingTarget
2008-03-18, 02:25 PM
EDIT: Ninja'd! Yes, Tolkein set the bar high with his elves.

Despite the fact that the man admitted that he regretted using the words "elf" and "dwarf" to refer to new entities for his mythology that were largely unrelated to the beings previously associated with the words.

Not that there are many examples of spell-slingers (Elvish or otherwise, besides the "gods") in Tolkien. Just about anything the Elves make seems somewhat magical due to their skill in crafts, but there were only 5 wizards in Tolkien's writings and none of them were Elves (or humans, or dwarves).

I think the way that D&D sees it as Elves = magical race = wizard (as the original magic-user class). The crunch of the stat distribution doesn't reflect what would make them most optimal, but the idea that they are more inherently magical is hard to ignore.

Collin152
2008-03-18, 02:50 PM
Despite the fact that the man admitted that he regretted using the words "elf" and "dwarf" to refer to new entities for his mythology that were largely unrelated to the beings previously associated with the words.

Not that there are many examples of spell-slingers (Elvish or otherwise, besides the "gods") in Tolkien. Just about anything the Elves make seems somewhat magical due to their skill in crafts, but there were only 5 wizards in Tolkien's writings and none of them were Elves (or humans, or dwarves).

I think the way that D&D sees it as Elves = magical race = wizard (as the original magic-user class). The crunch of the stat distribution doesn't reflect what would make them most optimal, but the idea that they are more inherently magical is hard to ignore.

Wouldn't "inhernatly magical" push towards sorcerer?

GoC
2008-03-18, 02:51 PM
Despite the fact that the man admitted that he regretted using the words "elf" and "dwarf" to refer to new entities for his mythology that were largely unrelated to the beings previously associated with the words.

Not that there are many examples of spell-slingers (Elvish or otherwise, besides the "gods") in Tolkien. Just about anything the Elves make seems somewhat magical due to their skill in crafts, but there were only 5 wizards in Tolkien's writings and none of them were Elves (or humans, or dwarves).

I think the way that D&D sees it as Elves = magical race = wizard (as the original magic-user class). The crunch of the stat distribution doesn't reflect what would make them most optimal, but the idea that they are more inherently magical is hard to ignore.
I've always found it strange how the only creatures killed by a spell in Tolkine's writings are some unnamed goblins in The Hobbit.

LynGrey
2008-03-18, 03:06 PM
typically its the 4 hours of trance over 8 hours of sleep. Also the weapon familarties they get make it easier to do some decent damage.

When you look at their basic increases Dex +2 gives them chances at a better AC since no armor. Also Con -2 is only a HP a level and 1 point off of the concentration skill. Nothing to hoot and hollar about really, despite i like high con wizards. But the idea traditionally is not to get hit and not soak it up.

Fluff wise elves live for ever, giving htem time to study all the want about magic. That and they need something to do withi all that spare time.

Xuincherguixe
2008-03-18, 03:10 PM
Elves are supposed to be masters at wizardry and magic...but you know what's funny? Your average elf studies DECADES upon DECADES before maturing and going out into the world as a 1st level adventurer. So, at the taven (aptly-named Broken Record), 4 fledging adventurers meet up. Two are wizards. The elf is about 100 years old and has mastered the arcane arts of magic missile. The human wizard is 20 and has mastered the same thing.

Now who is smarter and more in tune with magic?


The problem is that elf society is being strangled by all the red tape. Oh sure, many of them call it ancient tradition, but it all serves little purpose. Does every book really need to be blessed twenty times, and taped to the back of a unicorn, and chased every day for a week before a page can be read? I would say no, but those damn elders could explain why this is "necessary" with an hour long rebuttal. Which they tend to do given the slightest hint that the would be elven wizard is not particularly happy about the questionable rituals, which of course wastes even more time that he could spend chasing unicorns with spell books attached to them.

Human wizardry is also pretty bad, but they only spend about half the time doing questionable rituals, most of which are arguably useful. It turns out that the wizardry academies tend to pack on lots of fluff courses. The Statistics Course is probably of some use, but there's nothing in the third year Calculus that's even remotely applicable. What's worse is that it has about 15 prerequisites. What they need to do is have more practical courses, such as "Basic Batman Wizardry", or "Economics: Why not to use creation to make yourself rich".

Of the two, the Human Wizard is most likely to be able to react to change.

Your best bet is likely the Goblin wizard. They have a much more real world approach to spell casting. No one will take goblin education seriously, but none of them have bothered paying attention to it either. Then they might have to admit that their students are just wasting their money.

You might not get hired by the king, but you'll have a much larger skill set which you can use to serve yourself. Who wants to work for that stuffy old monarch when you can take over the kingdom yourself? Or just lock yourself up in a tower and focus on things beyond such trivial matters as worldly ones.

Chronicled
2008-03-18, 03:12 PM
typically its the 4 hours of trance over 8 hours of sleep. Also the weapon familarties they get make it easier to do some decent damage.

You're making a case for elf rogues, not elf casters.

1) They still need 8 hours "rest" to recover spells, even if only 4 of it is spent trancing.

2) Why is a primary arcane caster using a weapon? Something is very wrong if that's the case.

Collin152
2008-03-18, 03:13 PM
typically its the 4 hours of trance over 8 hours of sleep. Also the weapon familarties they get make it easier to do some decent damage.

When you look at their basic increases Dex +2 gives them chances at a better AC since no armor. Also Con -2 is only a HP a level and 1 point off of the concentration skill. Nothing to hoot and hollar about really, despite i like high con wizards. But the idea traditionally is not to get hit and not soak it up.

Fluff wise elves live for ever, giving htem time to study all the want about magic. That and they need something to do withi all that spare time.

They still need eight hours of total rest, so it isn't much of an advantage.
or any, really.
And what wizard uses weapons to the point that what weapon they're using matters?
And technically, elves don't live forever, just a really long time. Elans, on the other hand...

AmberVael
2008-03-18, 03:22 PM
I've always found it strange how the only creatures killed by a spell in Tolkine's writings are some unnamed goblins in The Hobbit.

And I've always found it strange how DnD magic is so flashy and irritatingly common and easy- DnD magic and Tolkien's magic are highly different in terms of use and level of power.
Frankly, the easiest way to stat out Gandalf, in my opinion, would be to make a Factotum.
Seriously- think of how much magic he did, then think of ALL the things he did. Rode horses, persuaded irritable people, cast a few spells, knew all kinds of things, fought with swords, forged alliances...
Doesn't that sound more like Factotum than Wizard?

Tokiko Mima
2008-03-18, 04:27 PM
Elves make great Wizards because they have so many racial weapon proficiency Feats. No really, I'm being serious.

All they need to do is get 8th level Wizard spells and Embrace the Dark Chaos, then Shun the Dark Chaos, and all of those Feats become useable for metamagic, item creation, or whatever needs a high level Wizard might have. Silly humans and their one free bonus Feat at first level! :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2008-03-18, 04:29 PM
And I've always found it strange how DnD magic is so flashy and irritatingly common and easy- DnD magic and Tolkien's magic are highly different in terms of use and level of power.
Frankly, the easiest way to stat out Gandalf, in my opinion, would be to make a Factotum.
Seriously- think of how much magic he did, then think of ALL the things he did. Rode horses, persuaded irritable people, cast a few spells, knew all kinds of things, fought with swords, forged alliances...
Doesn't that sound more like Factotum than Wizard?

Still I think a Solar could do everything Gandalf did. Especially with cross ranks.

Kurald Galain
2008-03-18, 04:44 PM
typically its the 4 hours of trance over 8 hours of sleep.
Yeah, I wonder who made that up? I'm quite sure that Tolkien elves sleep.


Fluff wise elves live for ever, giving htem time to study all the want about magic. That and they need something to do withi all that spare time.
Well, yes, but because of the same reason they need something artificial (like 2E's level adjustment, or most settings' lack of fertility) to keep them from simply overrunning the humans. Ironically, in all D&D editions so far, humans make better spellcasters than elves do.


Seriously- think of how much magic he did, then think of ALL the things he did. Rode horses, persuaded irritable people, cast a few spells, knew all kinds of things, fought with swords, forged alliances...
Doesn't that sound more like Factotum than Wizard?
No. That sounds like a wizard, still, one who has a good intelligence and charisma, and a bunch of skills. D&D is the only system where wizards are, for some obscure reason, forbidden from using swords, or learning to ride a horse.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 05:04 PM
Yeah, I wonder who made that up? I'm quite sure that Tolkien elves sleep.

Curiously enough, they also only trance a few hours a night in MERP and Rolemaster; I don't know what the source for that is in Tolkien's works, though, if there is any.


As for the differences in magic... D&D lacks a pretty crucial element of magic found in most settings: The Terrible Price. (Tolkien got it from mythology, and it's even more prevalent in the books of fantasy authors "descended" from Lovecraft, like Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, and Michael Moorcock - who were stylistically much closer to D&D otherwise.)

Magic in D&D is essentially free. There are game systems that model the cost of magic, and you don't want to use magic willy-nilly in them. (Like Call of Cthulhu, either BRP or d20. Ability drain when there is absolutely nothing that returns drained ability scores? Gulp. Conan d20 has the risk of Corruption.)

AslanCross
2008-03-18, 05:08 PM
Yeah, I wonder who made that up? I'm quite sure that Tolkien elves sleep.



No, they don't need to have bed rest. There was a chapter in LOTR (forgot where exactly, I think it was TTT) where Gimli was wondering why Legolas wasn't tiring. Aragorn said something along the lines of elves being able to dream while they were still technically awake, and so were able to rest without needing to stop.

Gorbash
2008-03-18, 05:32 PM
Ok, dexterity bonus aside from being an obvious rogue advantage, they have the following:
- Proficiency with longswords, longbows and shortbows
- +2 bonus on listen, search and spot
- ability to sense secret doors
- low light vision

So EVERYTHING they have indicates that they should be a dungeon-crawling class, yet for some reason they're described as great wizards...

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-18, 06:23 PM
No, they don't need to have bed rest. There was a chapter in LOTR (forgot where exactly, I think it was TTT) where Gimli was wondering why Legolas wasn't tiring. Aragorn said something along the lines of elves being able to dream while they were still technically awake, and so were able to rest without needing to stop.

I think that's during the chase after the orcs, after the Fellowship's broken and the hobbits are taken? That's the bit I always think of in this context. (It's also the part where Aragorn basically "uses a spell" to track the orcs, innit?)

AmberVael
2008-03-18, 06:28 PM
No. That sounds like a wizard, still, one who has a good intelligence and charisma, and a bunch of skills. D&D is the only system where wizards are, for some obscure reason, forbidden from using swords, or learning to ride a horse.

I state that, in DnD, the easiest way to stat Gandalf is as a Factotum, because it reflects his lesser use of spells, and his higher use of pure knowledge and skills.
You say that DnD wizards don't reflect that, but that you should stat Gandalf as a wizard in DnD because any OTHER system WOULD have their wizard class/rules be like that.
...

Honestly, I think we both agree, it's just that we're trying to achieve the same point at different angles.
You say Gandalf is a wizard- I agree, just not by DnD's definition. Within DnD, he would likely fit the Factotum class better than the Wizard class, but that doesn't mean he isn't a wizard, just that he's not using the wizard class.

Chronos
2008-03-18, 06:44 PM
The really funny thing is that, in 3rd edition, dwarves and halflings mechanically make great wizards (certainly better than elves). Actually, they would have made great wizards in 2nd edition, too, except that the 2nd edition rules didn't allow dwarves or halflings to be wizards at all.

Collin152
2008-03-18, 06:46 PM
The really funny thing is that, in 3rd edition, dwarves and halflings mechanically make great wizards (certainly better than elves). Actually, they would have made great wizards in 2nd edition, too, except that the 2nd edition rules didn't allow dwarves or halflings to be wizards at all.

Where do Gnomes factor into all this?

DraPrime
2008-03-18, 07:09 PM
It's probably a cultural thing. They just seem to like magic more. I mean seriously, when a person chooses a profession they don't know the mechanics behind their race and world. They just know what seems interesting to them. Same goes with the elves.

Indon
2008-03-18, 07:59 PM
Elves have a strong affinity and interest in magic... but they aren't extra-intelligent or charismatic over humans. They are slight of build and graceful, which explains the stat modifiers.

Elves were made as a creative venture (and a relic of earlier versions) and the stats describe them - they weren't made with any mechanical objective in mind, and no, Wizards is not stupid for making an aspect of an RPG without an explicit mechanical objective.

Dode
2008-03-18, 08:01 PM
errrggh elves aren't optimized way to SUCK wotc

Chronos
2008-03-18, 08:15 PM
Where do Gnomes factor into all this?Gnomes... Are complicated. In 3rd edition, they also make good spellcasters, but they at least have fluff which somewhat supports that. In 2nd edition, they made even better wizards, since back then, their ability modifiers were +Int, -Wis. But while they were allowed to be illusionists (and in fact, were better at it than any other race, and were the only race that could multi-class as a specialist wizard), they couldn't be a generalist mage or any other sort of specialist. They also got some bonuses as thieves, so gnome illusionist/thief was a popular build (and encouraged by the fluff).

Mark Hall
2008-03-18, 08:45 PM
Personally, I think the meat of elves in 3.x supports them being bards more than wizards. However, the reason they have wizard as a favored class isn't because they're mechanically best at that class, but because their culture is supposed to emphasize the study of magic.

Collin152
2008-03-18, 08:46 PM
I still say their favored class should be sorcerer. It fits the naturally talented with magic thing a lot better.

Aquillion
2008-03-18, 08:59 PM
IMO, mainly because Tolkein's Elves were very magical creatures, and no one has seen any reason to change that.Um, Tolkien didn't invent elves. If anything, his elves are much less magical than they were in fantasy before then (see Dunsany's "The King of Elfland's Daughter", say.) Traditionally elves were shown as completely and totally otherworldly, with innate supernatural powers and motivations humans often couldn't understand at all; Tolkien made them much more human-like, with only some hints of the supernatural around them.

But anyway, yeah. I think the idea for the D&D elves is that they have an affinity for magic, which is not necessarily the same thing as being particularly good at it. It's what they enjoy doing.

(With that said, I would have given elves a few small bonuses to match with this affinity for magic -- a bonus to spellcraft rolls made to recognize spells as they are cast, say. That wouldn't be overpowering, and would be a good way to represent growing up surrounded by magic. Perhaps a +1 concentration bonus for all concentration checks related to spellcasting, just to offset their con penalty.)

Swooper
2008-03-18, 09:00 PM
1. Wait, someone actually plays with favoured classes and XP penalties? :smallconfused:

2. Grey Elves get +2 to Int. I'd say that's a pretty good reason for them to play Wizards - Indeed, I think most actual PC elf wizards must be grey elves.

togapika
2008-03-18, 09:04 PM
Makes me wonder what stats the Tolkien Elves would have.

AmberVael
2008-03-18, 09:29 PM
Um, Tolkien didn't invent elves. If anything, his elves are much less magical than they were in fantasy before then (see Dunsany's "The King of Elfland's Daughter", say.) Traditionally elves were shown as completely and totally otherworldly, with innate supernatural powers and motivations humans often couldn't understand at all; Tolkien made them much more human-like, with only some hints of the supernatural around them.

He's not arguing that Tolkien made the elves and that they were more magical than other things- he's saying that the version of elves that Tolkien made (IE, Tolkien's elves as opposed to Mythical Elves or Santa's elves), which are what most modern RPGs base their elves off of, are somewhat magical and that connection has remained, thus the favored class being wizard.

Kompera
2008-03-18, 09:30 PM
Elves are supposed to be masters at wizardry and magic...but you know what's funny? Your average elf studies DECADES upon DECADES before maturing and going out into the world as a 1st level adventurer. So, at the taven (aptly-named Broken Record), 4 fledging adventurers meet up. Two are wizards. The elf is about 100 years old and has mastered the arcane arts of magic missile. The human wizard is 20 and has mastered the same thing.

Now who is smarter and more in tune with magic?

They are equally smart and in tune with magic.

The average Elf didn't spend those "DECADES upon DECADES" studying Magic Missile, he spent them playing in the elf version of the playground, because he matured much slower than the Human.

Your theory would indicate that of any two Human children, the one which learned to walk first was "smarter", and that's just not the case.

Young monkeys mature much faster and are independent of their parents much sooner than Human children. Who is smarter, the monkey or the Human?

Collin152
2008-03-18, 09:32 PM
They are equally smart and in tune with magic.

The average Elf didn't spend those "DECADES upon DECADES" studying Magic Missile, he spent them playing in the elf version of the playground, because he matured much slower than the Human.

Your theory would indicate that of any two Human children, the one which learned to walk first was "smarter", and that's just not the case.

Young monkeys mature much faster and are independent of their parents much sooner than Human children. Who is smarter, the monkey or the Human?

But elven rogues don't have to start quite so old...

Farmer42
2008-03-18, 09:56 PM
Elves, grey Elves specifically, make some mean gishes. Yes you take a hit to Str and Con, but those can be overcome with only a couple spells or items, and the bonus to Dex and Int means that you have some really nice damage spells to quicken and throw into the ring while you take a round or two to buff yourself then enter combat. And you have spell slots left over, because of your Int.

Yahzi
2008-03-18, 10:24 PM
Elves are good with magic because it's a throw back from the old days when elves were gishes in a can.
I think that's the right answer.

Orzel
2008-03-18, 10:32 PM
Why are elves spellcasters?

Because it's assumed that every elf takes at least 1 rank of Spellcraft, or Knowledge (arcana or the plane), or Concentration; and any elf who doesn't, sits at the freak table. It's a throwback from the old days, and it's assumed that every 3.5 elf will eventually take at least one level of wizard eventually if they live long enough.

Chronos
2008-03-18, 10:33 PM
(IE, Tolkien's elves as opposed to Mythical Elves or Santa's elves)Actually, Santa's elves are Tolkien's elves. One of Tolkien's lesser-known books, The Father Christmas Letters, recounts the adventures of Father Christmas and his elves at the North Pole, and the elves in that book kick just as much butt as the ones from the Middle Earth books.

AmberVael
2008-03-18, 10:34 PM
Actually, Santa's elves are Tolkien's elves. One of Tolkien's lesser-known books, The Father Christmas Letters, recounts the adventures of Father Christmas and his elves at the North Pole, and the elves in that book kick just as much butt as the ones from the Middle Earth books.

=D
I love that book!
*hops off to find it*

Collin152
2008-03-18, 10:35 PM
Actually, Santa's elves are Tolkien's elves. One of Tolkien's lesser-known books, The Father Christmas Letters, recounts the adventures of Father Christmas and his elves at the North Pole, and the elves in that book kick just as much butt as the ones from the Middle Earth books.

So... once, if at all?

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-19, 07:13 AM
Um, Tolkien didn't invent elves. If anything, his elves are much less magical than they were in fantasy before then (see Dunsany's "The King of Elfland's Daughter", say.) Traditionally elves were shown as completely and totally otherworldly, with innate supernatural powers and motivations humans often couldn't understand at all; Tolkien made them much more human-like, with only some hints of the supernatural around them.

Eh, hardly. Proper elves (noldor) were mostly all ten thousand years old or more by the late Third Age, and had come from what was essentially Tir nAn Og; they could perform amazing feats with no real effort, and had an actual glowing aura.


Makes me wonder what stats the Tolkien Elves would have.

I'd say (mostly based off MERP / RM)...

Silvan Elves (Nandor)
As per PHB.

Favored Class: Ranger.


Grey-elves (Sindar)
As per PHB, except as follows:

+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma.
Immune to all natural diseases.
Cold resistance 5.
Favored Class: Bard.
Level Adjustment +1 or +2


High Elves (Noldor)
As per PHB, except as follows:

+4 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +4 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, +4 Charisma.
Type: Outsider. Subtypes: Elf, Native.
Immune to all natural diseases.
Cold resistance 10.
Spell resistance of 5 + character level.
Favored Class: Wizard.
Level Adjustment +3 or +4


The real difference, of course, would be levels. You're hardly likely to meet noldorin under 10th level, what with most of them being thousands of years old and having been among the exiles from Valinor.


So... once, if at all?

Way to totally not read the Silmarillion, which is by far superior to LotR anyway...

Middle-Earth elves are bad-ass. Even Hurin or Turin didn't match up to Ecthelion of Gondolin, and it was an elf prince (Fingolfin? Finarfin? I never remember) that challenged Morgoth to single combat and wounded him badly enough to traumatize him into never stepping outside the gates of his fortress.

ashmanonar
2008-06-02, 10:23 AM
Yeah, I wonder who made that up? I'm quite sure that Tolkien elves sleep.


Tolkien elves do not sleep, inasmuch as sleep is "shutting your mind down for 8 hours to rest".

It's remarked several times (especially in the Two Towers, if I remember correctly, that Legolas doesn't sleep. He may need to rest his body from time to time, especially as they're on a long chase, but he's always awake; that "waking life is more like a dream to the elves," and that "Dreaming" is their reality. (Paraphrased, I don't have the books in front of me).

SolkaTruesilver
2008-06-02, 10:38 AM
I prefer Warhammer's way of handling the Elves. First, they were created by the Old Ones to BE awesome spellcasters, and the reason they are awesome wizards is because they were taught the mysteries of the Aethyr.

Also, elves and humans of the same power level (which means, a Human Wizard Lord and an Elven Wizard Apprentice) still aren't on the same playing field. Elfs will succumb less easily to the corruption of Magic in Warhammer, which gives them quite an advantage, making it easier for them to access higher power level.

On the other hand, there isn't a higher power level at all for humans, so I guess I'm beating a dead horse there..

Ned the undead
2008-06-02, 02:21 PM
The idea that elves make great wizards was actually embedded in the fluff of 2nd edition. I think it has something to do with how mystical and fey-like they are. Honestly, elves have a bit of an identity crisis in D&D that is thankfully being resolved in 4th edition. Now, elves have been split into 2 races:

1: The Elves. They are what you would call woodsy elves. Like their counterpart, the Eladrin, they originate from the feywild, but they chose to come to the prime because they love the forest so darn much. They make great rangers and, interestingly, clerics because they get a wis bonus now I think.

2: The Eledarin. These are the elves that stayed in the feywild. They are mysterious masters of the arcane, and even get to teleport once per encounter. Spiffy.

EDIT: Ninja'd! Yes, Tolkein set the bar high with his elves.This is the one thing I think no one can say is horrible 4e. Wizards doesn't have smoosh Galadriel and Legolas into one race, they have two that are thematically balanced between the archtypes.