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its_all_ogre
2008-03-19, 05:45 AM
got a situation coming up in my game where pcs will be facing a wight with shadowdancer levels.
the fight will br hopefully a repeat hit and run affair through some ruins culminating in a showdown in a ruined temple, the only source of this creature healing itself is a pool of negatively charged water.

now consider this: enemy hiding in plain sight 10 feet from party, hits one of them and moves out of sight (around a corner) does not need to make a hide check. but when a pc comes around what is the situation?
the creature is not hidden as made no hide check? (assume so)
creature makes a hide check as a reaction? (would not assume this is case)

i could have it attack as the surprise round, move round corner on its action and make a hide roll then? but if it could do that then just make a hide check where it is already.
how do you govern attacks made into its square? 50% miss chance for full concealment?
as this creature can move around anywhere while a shadow remains within 10 feet it could move into the middle of a group and then attack as many as adjacent if it had whirlwind attack (at last a use for that feat!) as a full attack.
forgot to mention the wight also has ninja levels so can use invisibility a few times a day: how does that work? turn invisible for a round:therefor no longer visible, when it runs out is the creature hidden per hips?

leperkhaun
2008-03-19, 06:02 AM
i would say not. unless he took his action while invisible to hide because even with hide in plain sight you have to make a hide action.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-19, 06:51 AM
Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesnít take a separate action.

The funny thing is, the skill description never says what being hidden means in game terms. I'd rule it's a 50% miss chance if you guess what square your opponent is hiding in.

It all gets really wonky in the scenario you described, though.

The skill description says running around a corner to hide is viable, so I'd say there's a Hide check made once it gets out of sight, with a penalty based on how fast it's moving to get there.

With Hide in Plain Sight, you don't need to run around that corner, though. You can just Hide where you are. Take a move into another area with some shadow, and make the Hide check; only PCs who beat your Hide check with a Spot check (first reactive, then move actions to retry) know where you are, and themselves have no miss chance (and can point the square out to others, who can then attack at a 50% miss chance).

Okay, it was less complicated than I thought at first.

its_all_ogre
2008-03-19, 07:06 AM
if the creature hides in the same square then they'll all attack that square, unless they think it's moved...
hmm could be interesting. think i need to read the ninja ghost step ability again and see what action it is, AFB now.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-19, 07:17 AM
But by the rules, it can't actually hide in that same square; there's no action to Hide (unless you're sniping with ranged attacks) - it has to move to make the Hide check.

And it'd be one dumb undead NOT to move, anyway.

its_all_ogre
2008-03-19, 07:22 AM
hiding is a move action, this does not mean you actually have to move i don't think.
mind you that makes more sense, make the hide check as part of a move action then it can end it's move any where within movement range.

Thinker
2008-03-19, 08:35 AM
hiding is a move action, this does not mean you actually have to move i don't think.
mind you that makes more sense, make the hide check as part of a move action then it can end it's move any where within movement range.

No its not a move action. It is usually no action that is taken as part of movement. This does not mean you actually have to move. The only time that it is a move action is when you attempt to re-hide after sniping.

its_all_ogre
2008-03-19, 08:55 AM
awesome! thanks for that, i looked into this months ago but players decided to do other stuff so now i'm having to refresh the whole scenario, including adding levels to baddies etc:smallfurious:
still going to be fun:smallbiggrin:
(for me!)

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-19, 08:59 AM
Hiding can be done as part of movement, but if no movement actions are taking you have to use a move equivalent action to actively hide.
It is not a free action, but something that is done as part of a move.


Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesnít take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

It is also worth noting that running around the corner will do you no good if there is no cover or concealment. If you just stand around a corner and someone walks around it, they will spot you unless you have hidden yourself or they are effectively blind.


You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.

its_all_ogre
2008-03-19, 09:04 AM
ideally i don't want them to just vanish into thin air, by nipping round a corner and making a hide check anything could have happened, including teleportation magic, walking through a wall etc
if cornered then the creature will do the vanishing thing, but otherwise will try to hide it's ability.

Curmudgeon
2008-03-19, 09:20 AM
Hiding can be done as part of movement, but if no movement actions are taking you have to use a move equivalent action to actively hide. Your invisible ears should be turning red, Silvanos, for ignoring the RAW here:
Itís practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. As charging, running, and full attacks are all full-round actions, where move actions are normally not possible yet you can Hide, it's pretty clear that no "move equivalent action" (3.0 flashback!) is required. While normally a Hide check is made as part of movement, the basic action statement is simple:
Action: Usually none. The exception to the "usually" case is only for Sniping, which is irrelevant here. Sniping rules have no general applicability, and we're talking about Hide in Plain Sight to permit Hide checks rather than needing to move to break line of sight when you're visible to your target.

From the Online D&D Glossary (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_invisible&alpha=I):
invisible

Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (Invisibility has no effect against blinded or otherwise nonsighted creatures.) An invisible creature's location cannot be pinpointed by visual means, including darkvision. It has total concealment; even if an attacker correctly guesses the invisible creature's location, the attacker has a 50% miss chance in combat. As a successful Hide check makes you visually undetectable, you should treat this mechanically the same as if you were invisible.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-03-19, 09:53 AM
Your invisible ears should be turning red, Silvanos, for ignoring the RAW here:

I did not express myself clear enough. Allow me to try again so my pseudo ears can turn their normal colour again:

Hiding can be done as part of movement, but if no actions involving movement are taken you have to use a move action to actively hide assuming that you are not already hidden of course.



As charging, running, and full attacks are all full-round actions, where move actions are normally not possible yet you can Hide, it's pretty clear that no "move equivalent action" (3.0 flashback!) is required.

They require movement or assume that you are already hidden from the beginning in case of the attack. It is not a matter of standing in plain sight and then deciding to hide while you full attack.


While normally a Hide check is made as part of movement, the basic action statement is simple:
Action: Usually none.

You are completely ignoring the line that follows and which has nothing to do with sniping.


Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesnít take a separate action.

Why does it usually take no action to hide?
Because it is done as part of movement, not because you can suddenly disappear whenever you want to.


The exception to the "usually" case is only for Sniping, which is irrelevant here.


While the rules are not as clear as they could be and generally assume that hiding is always done as part of movement it is also clear that the fact that you are doing it as part of another action is the reason it does not take a seperate action.
If you are not doing it as part of another action you would logically have to take some action and our best guess is the move action in this case.


Sniping rules have no general applicability, and we're talking about Hide in Plain Sight to permit Hide checks rather than needing to move to break line of sight when you're visible to your target.

I was talking about the general rules and not the Hide in Plain Sight class feature.

Hide in Plain Sight still requires cover or concealment or in case of the Shadowdancer, a shadow.

Curmudgeon
2008-03-20, 02:37 AM
They require movement or assume that you are already hidden from the beginning in case of the attack. It is not a matter of standing in plain sight and then deciding to hide while you full attack. The skill description states simply that you can Hide while attacking. There is no requirement that you already be hidden. I believe you're reading in something that isn't part of the rules, Silvanos.

Why does it usually take no action to hide?
Because it is done as part of movement, not because you can suddenly disappear whenever you want to. Ah, here's the main source of our disagreement.

Why does it usually take no action to Hide? Because only when Sniping do the rules require a separate action to use the skill. All other times you may Hide without an action. Movement is certainly the most common way to establish the requirements for Hide (not being observed, and getting to an area of cover/concealment), but the rules don't actually require any movement (or any action, except for Sniping) if you already meet the skill use requirements in your present location. Attacking certainly doesn't require movement, and yet you are permitted to Hide while attacking. (Attacking may not even permit movement, such as an AoO; yet the rules allow you to Hide with any attack.) Also a Bluff check to create a diversion lets you establish the "not being observed" requirement, but you don't have to then move to Hide if your current location satisfies the other (cover/concealment) requirement.


Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement
"Normally" establishes the most common case where the skill is used. This can't be a rules requirement, because the skill provides at least two cases where no movement is needed:
While attacking.
After taking a Sniping shot. A move action is required to conceal yourself in place, but no actual movement.


Action: Usually none. This is the action requirement, with Sniping as the single listed exception.

Can you "disappear" whenever you want to? No. You must satisfy a bunch of requirements:
Not being observed.
Cover/concealment.
It's got to be your turn (i.e., no immediate action uses of the skill).
Your Hide check must beat opposed Spot checks.
Needing movement just isn't on the list. And, thinking reasonably, why should moving to a different square help you to Hide? You want to avoid being Spotted, and movement certainly attracts attention. No, you only move when you need to break an observer's line of sight, or to get to a place that offers cover/concealment. If you're already in a hiding place, you want to stay put.

its_all_ogre
2008-03-20, 06:05 AM
with hips the creature can walk around a corner and then make a hide check so long as shadows are present as a move action then? i think thats been agreed.
in this circumstance there will almost always be shadows available unless players get particularly inventive. thanks again!

koldstare
2008-03-20, 06:06 AM
...

Not being observed.
Cover/concealment.
It's got to be your turn (i.e., no immediate action uses of the skill).
Your Hide check must beat opposed Spot checks.
Needing movement just isn't on the list. And, thinking reasonably, why should moving to a different square help you to Hide? You want to avoid being Spotted, and movement certainly attracts attention. No, you only move when you need to break an observer's line of sight, or to get to a place that offers cover/concealment. If you're already in a hiding place, you want to stay put.

His Baddie, However, has hide in plain sight negating the first two aspects of that list so he only needs to hide on his turn and he can hide wherever.

I would run as such

Hide in plain sight in the middle of a narrow snaking corridor and as soon as the PCs end turn within range you make a single attack and flee backwards as far as possible. Then, hide again. If you can set this in a maze with trapdoors he can do this indefinitely.

Talic
2008-03-20, 06:27 AM
In order to hide, you must be unobserved. If anyone is observing you, even casually, you can't hide. In D&D terms, this is generally referred to mean if any player has LoS to you, you cannot hide.

Also note that while total cover usually obviates the need for hide checks, it does not hinder your ability to make one. The difference between the following actions is thus:

Snipe: Attack, then move action used solely to hide. -20 penalty. if successful, you were never seen.

Attack, then move around a corner, out of sight. No penalty. Your opponent saw you from right when you hit them until you left LOS. This means AoO's can trigger, and the like.

As a shadowdancer, Attack, then move, and declare as a part of that move, at the very beginning, you hide. No penalty to hide. Your opponent saw you right after you attacked, but then you melted from view.


Last scenario requires a shadow within 10 feet, following the rules for shadowdancer HipS.

its_all_ogre
2008-03-20, 10:24 AM
he can do it when ever there is a shadow within 10 feet of somewhere he can move to. i don;t want him to melt from vision in the open, because i don;t like that personally.
plus they like to resolve things by hitting them with big sticks, this will make them think some more. guy also has ninja levels for ghost step and sudden strike and psychic warrior levels for a few psi-powers and feats.
he's a bbeg in every way and will be worth a massive chunk of xp so he needs to be fairly NAILS just not in a head to head fight.
party: sorcerer, sorcerer, ranger, barb/scout, fighter and sorcerer/rogue going into prestige class.
it's a goblin (+4 hide and move silently while still 30 foot base speed) will post whole build up if people have ideas to improve it!

Tsotha-lanti
2008-03-20, 01:16 PM
with hips the creature can walk around a corner and then make a hide check so long as shadows are present as a move action then? i think thats been agreed.
in this circumstance there will almost always be shadows available unless players get particularly inventive. thanks again!

Teehee, "with hips".

In a word, yes. The corner is irrelevant from a rules point of view, with Hide in Plain Sight involved. The creature could just move into any square with shadow nearby and hide, whether that square itself is out of sight or not. That's the rules part.

The corner bit is good for tactics / psychology, though. Double-time it around a corner and disappear. Is it hiding? Invisibility? Teleportation? Who knows?