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View Full Version : Tiger Claw vs Stone Dragon. Which one is more powerful?



neochaos
2008-03-20, 06:43 PM
I'm planning to build a Warblade. I choose Iron Heart and Diamond Mind as two of three disciplines warblade can choose, but I'm not certain which one to choose for the last one. So, between Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw? which one would you guys pick? which one deals more damage? which one is more useful?

By the way, I'm planning to use greatsword.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 06:48 PM
Tiger Claw is strictly the better discipline.

Any reason you're not considering White Raven? It's better than either Tiger Claw or Stone Dragon, AND meshes better with a greatsword.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-20, 06:49 PM
White Raven, but there are some Tiger Claw maneuvers you may want to cherrypick.

Stone Dragon eats a weasel because you have to be on the ground to use it. Screw that. Take Mountain Hammer for utility (smashing walls) and then ignore it.

The_Snark
2008-03-20, 06:55 PM
Stone Dragon gets some handy maneuvers; taking away enemy actions is always good. But you can't be flying, which is annoying, and none of the stances let you move. Mountain Hammer is good, Mountain Tombstone Strike is probably worth getting when you get to that level. Tiger Claw is great for two-weapon fighters and still pretty passable for others, so it's sort of a matter of personal preference. Given that you'll be focusing more on Diamond Mind and Iron Heart, and that both of those have lots of good maneuvers, it won't end up mattering all that much.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 06:56 PM
Also, OP, you do realize that a Warblade isn't restricted to choosing maneuvers from only 3 schools, right? You may have misread the part where, at level 1, a Warblade can choose 3 maneuvers.

neochaos
2008-03-20, 06:59 PM
Oh shoot, that's right. thanks Chronicled!

neochaos
2008-03-20, 07:01 PM
The main reason that I don't want to choose White Raven is that I'm much the only melee in party...so I thought War master's charge kind of things will not heplp very much.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 07:06 PM
Take a look at White Raven Tactics. Think about how you must be reading it wrong, since it seems overpowered. Then read it again, and realise how much you can make your party love you with that. (And you are your own ally, to boot.)

Then look at White Raven Hammer. Auto stun AND extra damage? Sign me up!

White Raven is full of other good maneuvers for battlefield control. Denying your enemies any attacks of opportunity can be a wonderful, wonderful thing. (Especially when you're fighting a Karmic Strike build... ah, good times.)

neochaos
2008-03-20, 07:11 PM
Question. What's Karmic Strike build?

White Raven seems...very powerful indeed. This gives me so much dilemma...so much cool stuffs I want to use...asdkashlaskhbfasl!!!

MeklorIlavator
2008-03-20, 07:17 PM
Take a look at White Raven Tactics. Think about how you must be reading it wrong, since it seems overpowered. Then read it again, and realise how much you can make your party love you with that. (And you are your own ally, to boot.)

Note that in the most recent FAC ruling on White Raven Tactics, they ruled that it only works on others.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 07:23 PM
A Karmic Strike build uses either: a feat from Complete Warrior named Karmic Strike (requires Combat Expertise and Dodge if I remember right), or a feat from Player's Handbook 2 named Robilar's Gambit (requires +12 BAB). Some say they can be both be used at the same time, but I've heard arguments against that.

Anyhow. The principle idea is that you drop your AC (usually by 4), so that whenever an enemy hits you, you get to make an attack of opportunity. With a decent dex (and ideally a reach weapon), you can get silly with this.

Especially when you combine it with the feat Stormguard Warrior from Tome of Battle. This lets you make touch attacks that don't deal damage instead of attacks of opportunity, for a big bonus to hit and damage on your turn. Then you full attack the living daylights out of your enemy, Power Attacking heavily and still hitting.

Karmic Strike builds also combine well with Shock Trooper (feat from Complete Warrio--requires Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, and +6 BAB); you can charge an enemy and drastically lower your AC for a huge damage bonus. If the enemy hits you back, you make an attack of opportunity each time, but until the beginning of your next turn, you keep the bonus to damage. (You don't need the Karmic Strike part as much if you have a reach weapon, since you can make your attack of opportunity as the enemy moves in to hit you.)

tyckspoon
2008-03-20, 07:24 PM
Question. What's Karmic Strike build?


Karmic Strike (and a few other similar feats, like Robilar's Gambit) gives you Attacks of Opportunity when somebody takes a swing at you (or when they hit you, depending on the specific feat.) The completed build gets to strike back four times with good hit/damage bonuses for each time the character is attacked. Needs Combat Reflexes and an insanely high Dex, obviously.

Edit: Bah, ninja'd in greater detail! And I misremembered the feat; Robilar's Gambit gives the people who are attacking you the bonuses, you just get to attack back with an AoO. So here's an extra bit- the four attacks come from using Double Hit from... I think the Miniature's Handbook, which allows you to strike twice when making an AoO.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 07:24 PM
Note that in the most recent FAC ruling on White Raven Tactics, they ruled that it only works on others.

While as a rule I don't trust the FAQ's rulings, this hardly makes White Raven Tactics less brokenly good.

neochaos
2008-03-20, 07:28 PM
1 WF, P.Attack, Cleave
2 -
3 Imp.Ini
4 -
5 Quick Draw
6 WS
7 -
8 -
9 Blade Meditation, Great Cleave
10 -
11 -
12 GWF
13 -
14 Iron Will
15 GWS
16 -
17 -
18 Imp.Critical
19 Lightning Reflexes
20 -

I thought to have feats like this as level progress, but any better suggestions?

Behold_the_Void
2008-03-20, 07:31 PM
Don't bother with the Weapon Focus line of feats, there are many, MANY better options you could be taking instead.

neochaos
2008-03-20, 07:34 PM
Eh.....like what?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-20, 07:36 PM
Anything we've mentioned here.

tyckspoon
2008-03-20, 07:43 PM
Yeah.. skip Weapon Focus/Specialization unless you're planning to take it all the way to the Mastery/Supremacy feats in PHB2. Those still aren't the *best* options, but they help the Focus/Specialization tree not suck. For replacements, you can just about never go wrong with taking Martial Study. You can use it to grab a maneuver that you wanted but couldn't fit into your normal progression, or you can dip into one of the disciplines your class doesn't normally have access to. Desert Wind has some nice boosts, or you could take some of the healing strikes from Devoted Spirit.

The_Snark
2008-03-20, 07:48 PM
Well...

-As your 5th level bonus feat, take Ironheart Aura. Decent feat, and clears the way for Stormguard Warrior at level 6 (or later). As your 9th level bonus feat, take Combat Reflexes; at 12th level, take Robilar's Gambit (PHBII).

Stormguard Warrior is the Iron Heart tactical feat, and it's potentially very good, especially when you combine it with maneuvers like Avalanche of Blades and Time Stands Still; first round, you use Avalanche of Blades along with Combat Rhythm, and make touch attacks untill you miss one, and the next round, all your attacks will be dealing quite a lot of damage. Channel the Storm is great with Robilar's Gambit; sure, your enemy gets +4 to hit and +4 to damage against you, but every time they attack you, you get +4 to hit and to damage against them—and that's cumulative; if they attack you three times, you're getting +12 to hit and to damage.

Blade Meditation and Great Cleave aren't that great either, really. If you do go with the Weapon Focus line, take Melee Weapon Mastery from the PHBII, but don't bother with GWF or GWS; at high levels, feats are too valuable, and you're not even making the tons of attacks that those feats help most with, since a lot of strikes are standard actions.

Adaptive Style's a handy feat at times; if you end up fighting lots of enemies and don't have your multiple-target strikes prepared, you can switch them out quickly. Even Martial Stance can be worth it to pick up another high-level stance.

The other tactical feats from Tome of Battle are also interesting; Clarion Commander is pretty decent, Perfect Clarity of Mind and Body is good if you also have feats like Improved Trip. The Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw tactical feats (Shards of Granite and Reaping Talons) are kind of useless, but those aren't your primary foci anyway.

MeklorIlavator
2008-03-20, 07:48 PM
While as a rule I don't trust the FAQ's rulings, this hardly makes White Raven Tactics less brokenly good.

Oh, I know. But I think its a good idea to warn people so that if the Dm reads the fac, they won't be surprised on the ruling.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 07:50 PM
I thought to have feats like this as level progress, but any better suggestions?

Ditch the entire WF/WS tree. Unless you're going for Weapon Supremacy (and even then), they're not worth it.

Warblades make GREAT Karmic Strike builds (and flankers, for that matter). That Int bonus to attacks of opportunity is wonderful.

Here's a sample feat selection list (not wholly optimized but with many of the stronger choices):

1 Adaptive Style, Power Attack, Cleave
2 -
3 Improved Bull Rush
4 -
5 Combat Reflexes
6 Shock Trooper
7 -
8 -
9 Ironheart Aura, Stormguard Warrior
10 -
11 -
12 Robilar's Gambit
13 -
14 Improved Initiative
15 Martial Maneuver (Shadow Blink)
16 -
17 -
18 Leap Attack
19 Quick Draw
20 -

Other options include Combat Reflexes/Improved Trip/Stand Still for a lockdown build. Exotic Weapon Proficiency isn't horrible with a Warblade since you can switch it out with a short amount of time (especially if your DM likes rolling random weapons as loot), and a spiked chain can work wonders with a Karmic Strike or lockdown style build.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2581244&postcount=17) is something you should read, written by The_Snark (Edit: she already mentioned a bunch of it here). Smart remarks on Robilar's Gambit and Stormguard Warrior. You should also read this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2590328&postcount=30) by Person_Man.

neochaos
2008-03-20, 07:59 PM
I'm sooooooooooooooooooooooo glad that I asked you guys before I make my character and you guys answered me so deeply. Thanks a lot, seriously.

P.S. Is master of nine stinks?

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 08:00 PM
P.S. Is master of nine stinks?

In my experience, it's not bad, but it's nothing to write home about either. There's very nice capstone abilities for each ToB base class.

neochaos
2008-03-20, 08:01 PM
Hmm. Then how about Warblade vs Swordsage? I heard that swordsage is the only melee class that can beat wizard....

The_Snark
2008-03-20, 08:08 PM
They're both good, honestly. The Tome of Battle was nicely designed, in that its three base classes all give reasons to stay in them for all 20 levels. The prestige classes tend to represent more specific character ideas, and for those they're nicely designed too; all of them make perfectly sound characters, though some are probably stronger than others. If you like Master of Nine, go for it; if you want to focus on a few disciplines, probably won't match up that well.

Oh, I've been cited. :smallredface: And I forgot to mention Snap Kick here, too; an extra attack at a low cost is usually worth the cost of a feat, and it's worth the cost of two feats if you have abilities that get better with multiple attacks (Stormguard Warrior, or Shadow Blade).

Saph
2008-03-20, 08:19 PM
I'd add that while Tiger Claw is a strictly better discipline than Stone Dragon overall, Stone Dragon has probably the best single level 2 maneuver of any discipline: Mountain Hammer. If you're playing a Warblade, there's no reason not to take it at level 3.

- Saph

Titanium Dragon
2008-03-20, 08:27 PM
Hmm. Then how about Warblade vs Swordsage? I heard that swordsage is the only melee class that can beat wizard....

Whoever told you that was wrong; Swordsages can't beat wizards any more than any other non-full caster can.

Indeed, according to the CO boards, Warblades are (slightly) stronger. It doesn't really matter though; they're all pretty close in terms of power level, and there is little agreement on ordering.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-20, 08:30 PM
Who's stronger between Warblades and Swordsages depends on the build and the level. I'd go with Swordsage most of the time, actually.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 08:42 PM
And I forgot to mention Snap Kick here, too; an extra attack at a low cost is usually worth the cost of a feat, and it's worth the cost of two feats if you have abilities that get better with multiple attacks (Stormguard Warrior, or Shadow Blade).

Keep in mind that Snap Kick requires Improved Unarmed Strike. An extra attack for two feats... still isn't bad, since Imp Unarmed Strike would add to your versatility (THAT'll teach the DM to take away your sword! :smallwink:)

Stone Power is also a nice feat, although it's better for Crusaders with their delayed damage pool. Still, free temporary hit points are a great way to stay alive and kicking against certain enemies.

Yet another option is Martial Study (Some Devoted Spirit maneuver, probably Crusader's Strike), and Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades), and use a reach weapon. THEN, get Robilar's Gambit and Stormguard Warrior. Enemies provoke attacks of opportunity for moving in your threatened area AND for attacking you; all of which can fuel your attacks for the next turn.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-20, 08:48 PM
Whoever told you that was wrong; Swordsages can't beat wizards any more than any other non-full caster can.

Technically, Swordsages have access to the most cheesy possible combination in D&D:

Dark WhispherGnome Swordsage with Darkstalker.

Max ranks in Hide/MS, get custom items of +30 to each, walk around in an AMF while completely invisible, and still (for some retarded reason) capable of teleporting.

Chronicled
2008-03-20, 08:56 PM
Technically, Swordsages have access to the most cheesy possible combination in D&D:

Dark WhispherGnome Swordsage with Darkstalker.

Max ranks in Hide/MS, get custom items of +30 to each, walk around in an AMF while completely invisible, and still (for some retarded reason) capable of teleporting.

Hardly the most cheesy combo (Locate City Bomb, anyone? :smalltongue:), but fun. Your custom items would fail in the AMF; but that hardly matters with a whispergnome.

Zain_Thorngallow
2008-03-20, 09:51 PM
Technically, Swordsages have access to the most cheesy possible combination in D&D:

Dark WhispherGnome Swordsage with Darkstalker.

Max ranks in Hide/MS, get custom items of +30 to each, walk around in an AMF while completely invisible, and still (for some retarded reason) capable of teleporting.

Well, depending on your game's Psionic / Magic transparency rules, a Psion with Touchsight active will still generally know exactly where the Gnome is. :smalltongue:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-20, 10:10 PM
Hardly the most cheesy combo (Locate City Bomb, anyone? :smalltongue:), but fun. Your custom items would fail in the AMF; but that hardly matters with a whispergnome.

Fine, the most ridiculous, because it is 100% uncounterable.

And yes, we use Psionic Magic Transparency, and even if we didn't just add in Psionic Item that generates an Anti-Psionic field, since you'd want that anyway. Though of course, it's true that there is no reason for an item of Hide.

Draz74
2008-03-20, 11:15 PM
Fine, the most ridiculous, because it is 100% uncounterable.

Not really. Just because nobody cheeses out their character's Spot check doesn't mean it's impossible to do so. Especially since you've already set a precedent that custom items are fair game. It's tough, but possible to give a character a good enough Spot check to overcome the Whisper Gnome's +8 Hide, especially if the gnome is in an AMF.

I do agree, however, that's it's a completely ridiculous oversight to make the Swordsage's teleport-like abilities [Ex] instead of [Su]. I mean, they're like the most [Su] of the whole [Su]-heavy Shadow Hand discipline! Any game I DM will swiftly get hit by Rule 0 on this particular issue.

The_Snark
2008-03-20, 11:22 PM
I had a level 16 character once with a Spot check in the high 50's once, and the only part of it that wouldn't have worked in an antimagic field was a +15 Spot item. It was not a one-trick pony, either; the character was perfectly viable in combat.

How does Swordsage help that combo, anyway? It seems to me that anybody with Hide in Plain Sight and Darkstalker could walk around all but invisible in an antimagic field.

Oh yes... nonmagical teleportation. I've always believed that was just a stupid oversight.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-21, 12:48 AM
Not really. Just because nobody cheeses out their character's Spot check doesn't mean it's impossible to do so. Especially since you've already set a precedent that custom items are fair game. It's tough, but possible to give a character a good enough Spot check to overcome the Whisper Gnome's +8 Hide, especially if the gnome is in an AMF.

I do agree, however, that's it's a completely ridiculous oversight to make the Swordsage's teleport-like abilities [Ex] instead of [Su]. I mean, they're like the most [Su] of the whole [Su]-heavy Shadow Hand discipline! Any game I DM will swiftly get hit by Rule 0 on this particular issue.

We aren't talking about just the WhisperGnomes +8, Also the +8 from Dark and the Hide in Plain Sight. Assume maxed Dex and we are talking about a +53 Mod. Yes it can be beaten. But that's without magic items. You can't get a +16 Racial to Spot can you?

With Magic Items it goes up to +83, but that would make you open to discovery by Touchsight in most games that allow Psionics.

EDIT: And I guess you might as well take Skill Focus and Stealthy, and a One level Marshal Dip while we are at it. So +88 +Cha.

Reel On, Love
2008-03-21, 01:02 AM
We aren't talking about just the WhisperGnomes +8, Also the +8 from Dark and the Hide in Plain Sight. Assume maxed Dex and we are talking about a +53 Mod. Yes it can be beaten. But that's without magic items. You can't get a +16 Racial to Spot can you?

With Magic Items it goes up to +83, but that would make you open to discovery by Touchsight in most games that allow Psionics.

EDIT: And I guess you might as well take Skill Focus and Stealthy, and a One level Marshal Dip while we are at it. So +88 +Cha.

If you're in an antimagic field, they're spotting you from *outside* the antimagic field. And get the use of items. And spells. There's like four different, *stacking* (different bonus types) spells that boost your Spot for a decent duration.

Draz74
2008-03-21, 10:13 AM
We aren't talking about just the WhisperGnomes +8, Also the +8 from Dark and the Hide in Plain Sight. Assume maxed Dex and we are talking about a +53 Mod. Yes it can be beaten. But that's without magic items. You can't get a +16 Racial to Spot can you?

Meh. Just hit it with a Glitterdust. You don't even need to know where it is, just approximate, since it's an area effect spell. (Scent is an easy way to figure out the general area of the gnome, if you're worried about it.) Result: -40 Hide check. OK!

Arbitrarity
2008-03-21, 10:18 AM
It's in an AMF, glitterdust doesn't work. Now, blindsense spell, or shapechange can counter easily, and then you just need to clear the AMF...

Or fire metamagicked orbs of X.

Burley
2008-03-21, 10:31 AM
Or...y'know...Tremorsense? That's a pretty great ability...and, it negates hiding, unless the hider is flying, or levitating. Blindsense would cover that, though...
But, why worry about getting around a defense like that? Some things are game breaking, and we all know it. I'd rather have my character killed from the shadows by that cretin than stoop so low as to break my character's build to overcome that nonsense.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-03-21, 11:27 AM
1) Blindsense, Tremorsense, and Scent are all negated by the Darkstalker feat. None of them work, or Shapechange, or Glitterdust because you have no idea where he is even if he's not in an AMF.

2) The problem is when a PC does it, and then has free reign to do whatever he wants in the campaign.

3) They could be using spells and items, or you could Hide so they are within the range of your AMF, then they have to move outside the range, then use a move action to re search for you, then use Celerity? Belt of Battle? Only quickened Spells? No standard action to actually attack with is a huge pain.