Rainbow Servant...how good?

[SoD]

I've been browsing through Complete Divine, and the Rainbow Servant, or Savant, or something like that, anyway, it caught my eye.

It's a prestige class for arcane casters, where, over ten levels, you get a few little things here and there, including, eventually, the ability to add all cleric spells to your spell list (you'd still need to learn them normally for your class though).

The downside? You loose 4 caster levels over the 10 levels of the prestige class.

But here's what I was thinking, do a mix with complete arcane...the warmage specifically, who automatically knows every spell on the warmage list, and casts them spontaneously. However, his spells are all combat orientated (except light). But, if he takes the path of the Radiant (Rainbow?) Savant (Servant?), he, at level 10 (of the prestige class), probably about level 15/16ish total, knows all his spells, and all the cleric spells, which would include the domains (I assume), which also covers a bunch of other wizard/sorcerer spells, and he casts these all spontaneously. A caster with acess to all cleric spells, almost all blasty wiz/sorc spells, and a bunch of non-blasty w/s spells. All for the cost of 4 caster levels.

Would it work like that? Is it worth it? What do you think, People of the Playground?

[Rad]

The cleric spell list does not include the domains; domain spells are explicitly added to the list of the individual clerics that take them.
4 lost caster levels is a bit too much... all you get in the end is a cleric that does not need to prepare spells but:

has low BAB/HP
suffers ASF from armor
cannot turn undead
IS 2 FULL SPELL LEVELS BEHIND!!!

so you'll have weak spells, a weak DC and are in a bad position for both blasting, save or die and buffing yourself into a tank; add to this that the skill points are not going to be great and you have some guy who is good at... nothing.
I'd just play a Cleric.

[dman11235]

Actually, you get full casting. Read the text. In that case: overpowered. At level 10 getting the entire cleric spell list=winsome.

And domains are not a part of the cleric spell list. You do however gain a couple domains as part of the class (good and law?).

[Charlie Kemek]

The cleric spell list does not include the domains; domain spells are explicitly added to the list of the individual clerics that take them.
4 lost caster levels is a bit too much... all you get in the end is a cleric that does not need to prepare spells but:

has low BAB/HP
suffers ASF from armor
cannot turn undead
IS 2 FULL SPELL LEVELS BEHIND!!!

so you'll have weak spells, a weak DC and are in a bad position for both blasting, save or die and buffing yourself into a tank; add to this that the skill points are not going to be great and you have some guy who is good at... nothing.
I'd just play a Cleric.

not entirely true, the RS gets a certain domain every time that he loses a +1 to existing class of spellcasting.

[Saph]

If you want to be a Rainbow Servant, Warmage is probably the best class to do it with. Practised Spellcaster will let you keep up your CL.

It's still not a great choice though. The big problem is that you won't actually get access to those Cleric spells until level 10 of the prestige class, which means level 16 overall. The game may well be over by then, and up to that point you'll be crippling yourself by your lost caster levels.

But yes, if you can somehow claw your way up to that point, you will get full spontaneous access to the entire cleric spell list, and the versatility that gives does kind of make it worth it - no matter what problem you run into, you can pull out some obscure cleric spell to deal with it. Trouble is, the full casters can just solve the problem by brute force by using their 8th- and 9th-level spells, which you don't get.

Still, you can't say that being able to cast over a thousand spells spontaneously isn't fun.

- Saph

[Xeo_Boy]

Actually, this is totally incorrect. The Rainbow Servant gives you cleric spell ACCESS, not cleric spells. You can add them to you spellbook as a wizard, add them to spells known as a sorcerer using spells known slots, or gain them via eclectic learning as a warmage. You don't get all the cleric spells added to your list, which is a real shame.

The major downside to this class is the lost 4 caster levels- a mystic theurge would actually be doing better here, and that's pretty sad. Those 4 lost caster levels are only by the table, though. If you read the text it tells you that you gain spellcasting at every level, and there hasn't been an errata made for it yet.

By WotC's ruling, text trumps table, so *technically* it's a full spellcasting class. Good luck trying to run that by a DM.

[Saph]

By WotC's ruling, text trumps table, so *technically* it's a full spellcasting class. Good luck trying to run that by a DM.

Especially since, on page 20 of Complete Divine, the PrC is listed as 'moderate spellcasting' - ie not full spellcasting.

Honestly, I think you're better off just asking the DM nicely if he can rule it to be full casting. Given that you're choosing to play a Warmage in the first place, he might be sympathetic.

- Saph

[Darrin]

Especially since, on page 20 of Complete Divine, the PrC is listed as 'moderate spellcasting' - ie not full spellcasting.

How exactly does that trump the text in the PrC description?

[Saph]

How exactly does that trump the text in the PrC description?

*shrug* You can try and convince your DM to ignore both that and the table if you like, but in my experience DMs usually react better to being asked nicely than to being argued at. Hence my advice.

- Saph

[Severus]

I thought I'd read on another thread that this has been errata'd and that the table was right and the text is wrong.

Losing 4 caster levels is borkage. Don't do it.

[Ramza00]

There has been no errata on the Rainbow Servants text vs table debate.

All foreign language versions of it has it as 6/10 spellcasting on both text and table, with the exception of one which had it as 10/10. It is commonly held to be a editing error and that it should be 6/10.

---

An Illumian Warmage can enter into Rainbow Servant with Practiced Spellcaster, and 1 Flaw for Improved Sigil Krau. Thus he can get the 10th level ability at level 11.

At level 11 he will have

ability to cast as a 7th level warmage thus 3rd level spells while a cleric would be casting 6th level spells, or a wizard 6th level spells.
access to all of the warmage spells
access to all the cleric spells spontaneously.
access to all the spells on the good, air, and law domains
any spell that isn't on the wizard/sorcerer list or bard list is cast as a divine spell, thus DMM cheese is possible.
at will detect evil, chaos, thoughts
can grow wings for up to 10 minutes per day.



now would you rather play that form of warmage
or a wizard
or a cleric
or a sorcerer with this spell selection.


5th Sorcerer: Greater Blink, Moonbow, Teleport, Feeblemind
4th Sorcerer: Enervation, Wings of Flurry, Orb of Acid, Greater Mirror Image
3rd Sorcerer: Slow, Stinking Cloud, Fly, Ray of Exhaustion or Dizziness. He had haste until he swapped it out
I won't even bother with 2nd and 1st, but let's just say that the warmage doesn't get Glitterdust or See Invisible or Ray of Enfeeblement and that Wings of Cover is absolutely cheesetastic.


The sorcerer takes Heighten Spell, Empower Spell, Split Ray, and Twin Spell or Rapid Metamagic/Quicken Spell. There's even room for Sudden empower/maximize. He picks up Elemental Substitution, unless he waits for Archmage's Mastery of Elements. Maybe Chain Spell.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=963854

[Chronos]

Why is Warmage a better base class than Beguiler? Both get all the spells on their list, but Beguiler doesn't have to suck while he's waiting for the cleric access. Admittedly, it hurts to go from 6 skill points a level to 2, but better to have skilled and lost than never skilled at all.

As for how overpowered this is, compare a high-level Rainbow Servant (with Warmage or Beguiler as the base), who can cast 8th-level spells, to a high-level straight cleric, who can cast 9th-level spells. Sure, the Rainbow Servant can spontaneously cast any cleric spell he wants of 8th level or lower, but so can the cleric, thanks to Miracle. Admittedly, the cleric can't do it nearly as many times per day as the Rainbow Servant, but realistically, how often will you need to? Usually, that one spell which you just absolutely must cast will be one that you anticipated needing and have therefore prepared. It's only for those times when the situation catches you by surprise that you need the spontaneity, and you can probably prepare enough Miracles to cover those situations. And the Miracle can also replicate 7th-level spells from any list whatsoever, and you can also prepare 9th-level cleric spells other than Miracle.

In fact, it gets even worse when you realize when each class gets this ability. A warmage or beguiler doesn't get 8th-level spells until level 16, which (with RS's lost caster levels) doesn't come until character level 20. But the cleric can cast Miracle at character level 17.

[Ramza00]

so in sum rainbow servant stinks, unless paired with another class in gestalt so you don't see caster level loss.

Now this build will rock in gestalt with these three houserules

1) One is that Rainbow Servant can be other alingments instead representing freezing cold marshes controlled by witches instead of good casting rainforest drealers. Or allow to hexblades to be lawful good.
2) The other is that paladins can multiclass freely.
3) Sanctified One of Kord works with Cold damage instead of fire.
Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Sanctified One of Kord 1/
Paladin of Tyranny 4/Hexblade 4/Warmage 4 during the levels you lose caster level through rainbow servant

Feats
1)Improved Sigil Krau
1)Precocious Apprentice
3)Eschew Materials
6)Cold Casting
9)Frozen Magic
12)Cold Spell Specialization

Lower the temperature, you add the cold descriptor to all your spells, adding +2 caster level and +2 damage dice if you lowered the temperature to under -20 F. (Which any divine spellcaster should be able to do)
All your cold damage is divine damage bypassing resistance.
Cast as a warmage and a cleric
Cha to saves twice plus mettle
Minus to your enemies saves and ac.

[Chronicled]

I figured out how I'd use Rainbow Servant in gestalt not too long ago. The build kept the full Beguiler or Warmage casting, and at 16th level got its huge power jump with all cleric spells. However, even before that it wouldn't be markedly underpowered due to the Factotum levels. I chose to go with Beguiler since even though it and Factotum have a couple overlapping abilities, you only need Int, and several of their abilities mesh together really well. The Factotum gets up to level 16 abilities, so you don't miss out on Improved Cunning Defense. The basic progression looks like:

Factotum//Beguiler
Factotum//Beguiler
Factotum//Beguiler
Factotum//Beguiler
Factotum//Beguiler
Factotum//Beguiler
Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
Beguiler//Factotum
Beguiler//Factotum
Beguiler//Factotum
Beguiler//Factotum

[Saph]

Why is Warmage a better base class than Beguiler?

Because Beguilers are a better class. :P It's the same reason that warmages take Arcane Disciple, while beguilers generally don't. When your spell list has as many great spells as the beguiler's does, it isn't worth going to the trouble of expanding it.

It's true that a Beguiler/Rainbow Servant would be stronger . . . but if you're a beguiler, there's no reason for you to take Rainbow Servant in the first place. (Unless you really really like couatls.)

- Saph

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

So first of all we currently have:

Rainbow/Radiant

Servant/Savant/Serpent

I'm sure from those combinations we could be talking about some other PrCs, let's cut the name game down a bit?

Secondly, why does everyone talk about it as if it were a 6/10s casting class? Let's be honest here. If the DM rules that it is a 6/10ths class, no one in any D&D game anywhere is ever going to use it. If we accept that it is a 10/10 casting class, some people might use it.

Same thing for the person talking about Warmage/Beguiler finicky spell list descriptions. Either Rainbow Servant isn't an option, or it allows you to use it's spells.

[Flickerdart]

Couldn't you just take Favored Soul if you want spontaneous Cleric casting?

[Chronicled]

Couldn't you just take Favored Soul if you want spontaneous Cleric casting?

No. The appeal of Rainbow Servant is that it lets you spontaneously cast ANY cleric spell if you're a warmage/beguiler. Favored Soul lets you pick cleric spells like a sorcerer, which is not nearly as good. Having all the highly situational spells whenever needed (Consecrate, for instance) is what we're aiming for.

[Talya]

I figured out how I'd use Rainbow Servant in gestalt not too long ago. The build kept the full Beguiler or Warmage casting, and at 16th level got its huge power jump with all cleric spells. However, even before that it wouldn't be markedly underpowered due to the Factotum levels. I chose to go with Beguiler since even though it and Factotum have a couple overlapping abilities, you only need Int, and several of their abilities mesh together really well. The Factotum gets up to level 16 abilities, so you don't miss out on Improved Cunning Defense. The basic progression looks like:

Factotum//Beguiler
Factotum//Beguiler
Factotum//Beguiler
Factotum//Beguiler
Factotum//Beguiler
Factotum//Beguiler
Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
Rainbow Serpent//Factotum
Rainbow Serpent//Beguiler
Beguiler//Factotum
Beguiler//Factotum
Beguiler//Factotum
Beguiler//Factotum
Other than this appearing to involve brightly multicolored Lepidosauria, this build is brilliant.

[Chronos]

Secondly, why does everyone talk about it as if it were a 6/10s casting class?Because it's clear that there's a typo somewhere in the class, and it's clear where the typo is, so most DMs just accept the part that clearly isn't the typo, and ignore the part that clearly is?

[Chronicled]

Other than this appearing to involve brightly multicolored Lepidosauria, this build is brilliant.

http://redescolar.ilce.edu.mx/redescolar/publicaciones/publi_reinos/fauna/mounstruo_gila/mounstruo_gila1-1.jpg

I keep trying to add something witty, but the picture speaks for itself.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Because it's clear that there's a typo somewhere in the class, and it's clear where the typo is, so most DMs just accept the part that clearly isn't the typo, and ignore the part that clearly is?

Or you could actually address my real point instead of taking it out of context.

[Chronos]

OK, so what's your real point? You asked why everyone assumes that it's a 6/10 class, and I answered you. If your real point was supposed to be that the class isn't worth it, then yes, everyone got that point long before your post.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

OK, so what's your real point? You asked why everyone assumes that it's a 6/10 class, and I answered you. If your real point was supposed to be that the class isn't worth it, then yes, everyone got that point long before your post.

Or my point could be that with two equally valid interpretations of the class, you should only address the one that is actually playable.

Take Warhulk for example: If the table said +2 Enhancement bonus to Str and the text said whatever it says now, would you tell people, "Warhulk sucks, those bonuses don't stack with each other, they overlap, and you can replace the whole thing with an item that costs 4,000gp."

Or maybe, you could only address the version that is actually worth looking at.

[Chronicled]

Or my point could be that with two equally valid interpretations of the class, you should only address the one that is actually playable utterly broken.

Fixed that for you.


If the DM rules that it is a 6/10ths class, no one in any D&D game anywhere is ever going to use it. If we accept that it is a 10/10 casting class, some people might everyone would use it.

Fixed that, too.

[Chronos]

Or my point could be that with two equally valid interpretations of the class, you should only address the one that is actually playable.I'll keep that in mind, next time I see something with two equally valid interpretations. But Rainbow Servant isn't such a case. For the interpretation that it's 6/10 to be correct, all we have to assume is that the writer forgot to take the word "every" out of the boilerplate description applied to every prestige class that advances spellcasting. For the interpretation that it's 10/10, we have to assume that the writer just coincidentally happened to delete the text "+1 of existing arcane class" four times in the table, at exactly the levels at which the class happens to gain other abilities, and that the writer also accidentally described the class as "moderate spellcasting" in the section listing all the PrCs, and that the translators for the book all just happened to also say that it's only partial spellcasting. These two interpretations are not equally valid.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

I'll keep that in mind, next time I see something with two equally valid interpretations. But Rainbow Servant isn't such a case. For the interpretation that it's 6/10 to be correct, all we have to assume is that the writer forgot to take the word "every" out of the boilerplate description applied to every prestige class that advances spellcasting. For the interpretation that it's 10/10, we have to assume that the writer just coincidentally happened to delete the text "+1 of existing arcane class" four times in the table, at exactly the levels at which the class happens to gain other abilities, and that the writer also accidentally described the class as "moderate spellcasting" in the section listing all the PrCs, and that the translators for the book all just happened to also say that it's only partial spellcasting. These two interpretations are not equally valid.

Um, no. The word every would not have to be removed. The usual is:
"X gains Y spellcasting at every level except A/B/C/D."

or

"X gains Y spellcasting at levels A/B/C/D/E."

or

"X gains Y Spellcasting at every (odd/even) level."

So clearly the writer wold have to have added more things in.

But my point is that no matter how much evidence there is of what the original intent of the author was, if a typo creates an actual playable class, that should be given more attention then if the author really intended to create yet another class that no one in the universe would ever use.

[UglyPanda]

The remainder of the post is written in standard logic form.

Your argument is as follows:
1. The error is intentional.
2. This makes the class playable.
Thus,
3. This should be the proper interpretation.

The arguments of other forum-goers:
1. This is corrected on the chart and the foreign language versions of Complete Divine.
2. The chart and foreign language versions are not meant to be different than the text.
3. Either the text or the other versions are wrong.
4. It is not possible for every other version to be wrong if other versions came later.
so,
5. The text is very likely wrong.
thus,
6. It's very likely intended to be a 6/10 spell-casting class.

1. There are acknowledged errors that make other classes better.
2. Players should not use these errors to their advantage.
3. Rainbow servant's 10/10 progression is an error.
Thus,
4. Players should not use the 10/10 progression.

1. Incredibly powerful classes should not be used in most campaigns.
2. The 10/10 progression is incredibly powerful.
Thus,
3. Players should not use the 10/10 progression in most campaigns.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Your argument is as follows:
1. The error is intentional.
2. This makes the class playable.
Thus,
3. This should be the proper interpretation.

I never asserted the error was intentional. (Then it wouldn't be an error.) I asserted that intention is immaterial and that whatever benefits play should be used in place of whatever hurts play.


1. Incredibly powerful classes should not be used in most campaigns.
2. The 10/10 progression is incredibly powerful.
Thus,
3. Players should not use the 10/10 progression in most campaigns.

The 10/10 progression is not incredibly powerful, it's just barely adequate if you happen to be a Beguiler/Warmage, notice that no Wizard or Sorcerer would ever take it.

And who on earth would assert that you shouldn't play with powerful classes? That's what they are there for.

[Jack_Simth]

I'll keep that in mind, next time I see something with two equally valid interpretations. But Rainbow Servant isn't such a case. For the interpretation that it's 6/10 to be correct, all we have to assume is that the writer forgot to take the word "every" out of the boilerplate description applied to every prestige class that advances spellcasting. For the interpretation that it's 10/10, we have to assume that the writer just coincidentally happened to delete the text "+1 of existing arcane class" four times in the table, at exactly the levels at which the class happens to gain other abilities, and that the writer also accidentally described the class as "moderate spellcasting" in the section listing all the PrCs, and that the translators for the book all just happened to also say that it's only partial spellcasting. These two interpretations are not equally valid.
Incidentally, there's two or three other PrC's in Complete Divine that have a similar discrepancy between Text and Table.

Hmm...
Bard-4/Fighter-1/Ur-Priest-3/Divine Oracle-2/Contemplative-10.... 15th level Ur-Priest casting, ur-priest caster level 17, 9th level spells available at 14th level onwards, plus some domains for the niftier arcane spells...

... my, that book is open to cheese.

[Chronos]

But my point is that no matter how much evidence there is of what the original intent of the author was, if a typo creates an actual playable class, that should be given more attention then if the author really intended to create yet another class that no one in the universe would ever use.Except that Rainbow Servant is an actual playable class even with the 6/10 spellcasting. It's not as powerful as a full spellcaster, true, but it's still a heck of a lot more powerful than Monk, and Monk, despite the scorn it receives, is in fact playable.


The 10/10 progression is not incredibly powerful, it's just barely adequate if you happen to be a Beguiler/Warmage, notice that no Wizard or Sorcerer would ever take it.If you happen to be a Beguiler/Warmage, then the 10/10 progression lets you do everything a cleric can do, better. Being better than one of the top 5 broken classes in the game is not "barely adequate" in my book. And why would no wizard ever take a class that gives full spellcasting progression and increases their spell list by about 50%?

Jack_Smith, what's the discrepancy you're referring to with Ur-Priest? I agree that it's cheesy to advance Ur-Priest spellcasting via another PrC, but I don't think the text or table prohibits that.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I never asserted the error was intentional. (Then it wouldn't be an error.) I asserted that intention is immaterial and that whatever benefits play should be used in place of whatever hurts play.



The 10/10 progression is not incredibly powerful, it's just barely adequate if you happen to be a Beguiler/Warmage, notice that no Wizard or Sorcerer would ever take it.

And who on earth would assert that you shouldn't play with powerful classes? That's what they are there for.

I disagree. As a Sorcerer, if it were a 10/10 class, I'd pick it up. Spontaniously cast Heal spells all day long? Thank you. How about a Sorcerer with Divine Power and Righteous Might? Can we say Tenser's Transformation that you can still cast in? Of course, that's rather pointless for a Sorcerer, I'd much rather go with just DP for the extra BAB if I've got a lot of Ray spells and opponents with insanely high touch AC.

Where it gets stupidly crack sick broken is when you pair with Warmage/Beguiler, but particularly Beguiler. He completely replaces the Cleric, because he can cast every Cleric spell in the game, spontaniously, whenever he feels like it. About the only thing he can't do is DMM, since RS doesn't get Turning.

It's like playing a Gestalt in a non-Gestalt game. Broken. With cheese filling AND topping.

As it is, with 6/10 casting, it's like Mystic Theurge, only more flavorful and less casting slots.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Incidentally, there's two or three other PrC's in Complete Divine that have a similar discrepancy between Text and Table.

Hmm...
Bard-4/Fighter-1/Ur-Priest-3/Divine Oracle-2/Contemplative-10.... 15th level Ur-Priest casting, ur-priest caster level 17, 9th level spells available at 14th level onwards, plus some domains for the niftier arcane spells...

... my, that book is open to cheese.

Most people that I know start from the assumption that there is no "15th level Ur-Priest casting." Or rather, that such a thing consists of having the same spells per day as a level 10 Ur-Priest. In which case the real benefit of Ur-Priest is when you stack it in addition to another casting class, since 15 Ur-Priest isn't even comparable to 17 Cleric.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

@ "He replaces Cleric, oh so broken!"

He gets spontaneous casting of the Cleric list at level 16. Level 16! Are you telling me that you really think that replaces the Cleric?

A beguiler gets a really nice ability at 16, but before that, he's a Beguiler, not a Cleric. And it still doesn't replace one of the things a Cleric does best, buff up and enter combat, because you choose to have a lower HD and less armor.

As a Sorcerer or Wizard taking the class, they have to give up 10 levels of advancement in another PrC in order to get access to the Cleric list. Guess what, they already have access to parts of the Cleric list, and they never cast those spells, because if they wanted to, the could cast them in full plate with a d8 HD.

Sorcerer with spontaneous Divine Power and Righteous Might? Yeah, that's called a Favored Soul with d6 HD, and no armor.

Oh you want Heal? Extra Spell by some interpretations, Arcane Disciple otherwise, surely a feat costs you less then 10 levels of a Prestige class. This also works for Divine Power/Righteous Might.

[Nermy]

I'd probably say that with a Sorcerer or any other class that has to select spells known, house-ruling 10/10 casting progression for Rainbow Servant wouldn't be broken, since you'd only be able to add a handful of cleric spells to your spells known list at that point.

[Chronicled]

@ "He replaces Cleric, oh so broken!"

He gets spontaneous casting of the Cleric list at level 16. Level 16! Are you telling me that you really think that replaces the Cleric?

A beguiler gets a really nice ability at 16, but before that, he's a Beguiler, not a Cleric. And it still doesn't replace one of the things a Cleric does best, buff up and enter combat, because you choose to have a lower HD and less armor.

As a Sorcerer or Wizard taking the class, they have to give up 10 levels of advancement in another PrC in order to get access to the Cleric list. Guess what, they already have access to parts of the Cleric list, and they never cast those spells, because if they wanted to, the could cast them in full plate with a d8 HD.

Sorcerer with spontaneous Divine Power and Righteous Might? Yeah, that's called a Favored Soul with d6 HD, and no armor.

Oh you want Heal? Extra Spell by some interpretations, Arcane Disciple otherwise, surely a feat costs you less then 10 levels of a Prestige class. This also works for Divine Power/Righteous Might.

Arcane Disciple is 1/day, and still takes up spells known if not a beguiler/warmage.

As for the favored soul comment, a beguiler/warmage with this PrC (assuming your 10/10 caster levels) is far better than a favored soul. A favored soul picks a number of cleric spells to spontaneously cast; a beguiler/rainbow servant gets EVERY CLERIC SPELL EVER PRINTED to spontaneously cast. Yes, that can generally replace the cleric.

[ImperialGolem]

Huh.

Rainbow servant is quite good. In gestalt, definitely overpowered.

Still, why are people arguing if it is 10/10 casting or not? With 10/10 casting, it would be almost as good as the planar shepherd (yeah, sorry guys, druids still own everyone). With 10/10 casting, everyone and their mother would take it.

Why? Miracle, true resurrection, and heal.

Anyone with half a brain can see it would be ridiculous for it to have 10/10 casting.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Arcane Disciple is 1/day, and still takes up spells known if not a beguiler/warmage.

1) Arcane Disciple isn't once a day. I'm talking about the feat that adds spells to your class list that you can then cast. Not as a Domain, but as spells on your class list. Yes it requires spells known for a Sorcerer, but so does benefiting from Rainbow Servant, and this you can access much sooner.


As for the favored soul comment, a beguiler/warmage with this PrC (assuming your 10/10 caster levels) is far better than a favored soul. A favored soul picks a number of cleric spells to spontaneously cast; a beguiler/rainbow servant gets EVERY CLERIC SPELL EVER PRINTED to spontaneously cast. Yes, that can generally replace the cleric.

The Favored soul comment was solely aimed at the remarks about sorcerers taking the class, not the Beguiler/Warmage.

And I know what it does. My point is that that applies to levels 16-20. Ignoring for a moment that most games don't make it that far ever, that's 1/4 of the game. For the other 3/4ths you are not a Cleric, in fact, note even close.

And the Cleric is still better at buffing up and wading into melee then you.

The fact that with the right PrC and base class you can create a class set up that casts better then a Cleric (casts better because the Cleric has 10 levels of a different prestige class then you which gives him other benefits, not to mention Turn Undead and Armor and HP, and a better selection of Domains) for exactly 4 levels out of 20 is not broken.

That's four levels, out of 20, that are rarely ever played. (Because of course level 17 is better for the Cleric.)

My contentions are:

For anything but Beguiler/Warmage(And Dread Necromancer?) the class isn't going to be taken.

For those classes, it forces them to play either 15 levels of Warmage (ouch) or 6 levels of Beguiler followed by 9 levels of gimped skills beguiler (Even more ouch because you used to be awesome) in order to get 4 levels of awesome.

[Jack_Simth]

Most people that I know start from the assumption that there is no "15th level Ur-Priest casting." Or rather, that such a thing consists of having the same spells per day as a level 10 Ur-Priest. In which case the real benefit of Ur-Priest is when you stack it in addition to another casting class, since 15 Ur-Priest isn't even comparable to 17 Cleric.
General inkling is that caster level advances, spells per day don't. Yes, the pure Cleric ends up with more raw magical might.... but the Ur-Priest is beholden to no one, and gets new spells faster. The classic Ur-Priest build is a theurge - Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Other PrC to taste. 9th level Divine spells at 15th or 16th (depending on Wis). About the fastest Ur-Priest build is a Savage Bard-5 (or Bard-4/Fighter-1)/Ur-Priest 10; 9th level Divine spells at 14th or 15th (depending on Wisdom). Other PrC's in there were mostly for getting nifty domain spells for the things the Cleric list doesn't cover. Does Time Stop, Disjunction, Gate, or Prismatic Sphere at 14th level sound balanced?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Huh.

Rainbow servant is quite good. In gestalt, definitely overpowered.

Still, why are people arguing if it is 10/10 casting or not? With 10/10 casting, it would be almost as good as the planar shepherd (yeah, sorry guys, druids still own everyone). With 10/10 casting, everyone and their mother would take it.

Why? Miracle, true resurrection, and heal.

Anyone with half a brain can see it would be ridiculous for it to have 10/10 casting.

Maybe, if anyone actually expected to make it to level 16-17 and gain those benefits. And if it wasn't preceded by 9 levels of meh.

I don't know who would even bother taking it in Gestalt with a Wizard/Sorcerer. Maybe with a Beguiler sure.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

General inkling is that caster level advances, spells per day don't. Yes, the pure Cleric ends up with more raw magical might.... but the Ur-Priest is beholden to no one, and gets new spells faster. The classic Ur-Priest build is a theurge - Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-8/Other PrC to taste. 9th level Divine spells at 15th or 16th (depending on Wis). About the fastest Ur-Priest build is a Savage Bard-5 (or Bard-4/Fighter-1)/Ur-Priest 10; 9th level Divine spells at 14th or 15th (depending on Wisdom). Other PrC's in there were mostly for getting nifty domain spells for the things the Cleric list doesn't cover. Does Time Stop, Disjunction, Gate, or Prismatic Sphere at 14th level sound balanced?

I am well aware of the classic Ur-Priest build, and the potential of UrPriest. I just wonder why you think that advancing it with other classes after it stops granting spells is worth it. Certainly not broken. At least if you were going to do that, Heirophant would be better then Contemplative, since it's specials are worth more then those of Contemplative if you aren't getting spells per day anyway.

[Chronicled]

1) Arcane Disciple isn't once a day. I'm talking about the feat that adds spells to your class list that you can then cast. Not as a Domain, but as spells on your class list. Yes it requires spells known for a Sorcerer, but so does benefiting from Rainbow Servant, and this you can access much sooner.

The only feat I can think of that matches your description is Arcane Disciple. Which gives you access to a domain, BUT only allows each spell to be cast 1/day, and uses Wis as the casting stat for those spells (both for being able to cast them, and for DCs).

[UglyPanda]

I never asserted the error was intentional. (Then it wouldn't be an error.) I asserted that intention is immaterial and that whatever benefits play should be used in place of whatever hurts play.

In which case, it's not RAW, it's your opinion. You cannot disprove that someone has an opinion. You can change it, but you cannot prove that an opinion is wrong. I was arguing that it's not RAW and that's all I seek to accomplish.



And who on earth would assert that you shouldn't play with powerful classes? That's what they are there for.
I used the qualifier incredibly, indicating classes that have power far above the norm. I did not state that power itself is unused, for the only possibility of having powerful classes is that every class is average, as powerful is defined as having more power than average.

[Chronicled]

You know, after thinking about some of the stuff in Complete Divine, (*cough*DivineMetamagic*cough*), Chosen might be right. Neither the Warmage nor the Beguiler were around at CD's printing. Neither was Persistent Spell, for that matter (although DMM is still stupidly good without it). Seeing as how the IotSFV and such came out not too much later, it wouldn't be horrible to have the Rainbow Servant as a 10/10 caster. Just don't allow it mixed with Warmage/Beguiler, and the main problem is moot--it's not so easy to break Rainbow Servant without them, and CD's writers made a lot of broken stuff. The worst that you can do then is make a gish using cleric spells and wizard spells; several of which don't stack due to being enhancement bonuses (Tenser's and Divine Power, for instance).

With IotSFV as a 10/10 caster, is having Rainbow Servant 10/10 so bad?

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

In which case, it's not RAW, it's your opinion. You cannot disprove that someone has an opinion. You can change it, but you cannot prove that an opinion is wrong. I was arguing that it's not RAW and that's all I seek to accomplish.

No, that would mean it is not RAI. It still could be (and in fact is) RAW.


I used the qualifier incredibly, indicating classes that have power far above the norm. I did not state that power itself is unused, for the only possibility of having powerful classes is that every class is average, as powerful is defined as having more power than average.

And I find it equally silly to say that about "incredibly" powerful classes. Why write a class if it isn't going to be used? Some people might like to play with "incredibly" powerful classes, and the classes are there to be used.

[Paul H]

Hi

Warmage/Rainbow Servant is a build I've been harping on about for some time now. (See other threads). Full caster level (checked about text with 'semi-official' sources, full list of cleric spells, plus domain spells & powers of Law, Air, Good.

It's the Coatl access part that normally stops it. In my region of RPGA's Living Greyhawk the PrC is OK, but there's no Coatls in Onwal.

In fact the only things Clerics do better is HP, BAB & turning abilities. Oh, plus you can use better armour/shields. (Battlecaster only prevents ASF, doesn't train you in using better armour, and you still can't use heavy shields).

Cheers
Paul H

[Jack_Simth]

I am well aware of the classic Ur-Priest build, and the potential of UrPriest. I just wonder why you think that advancing it with other classes after it stops granting spells is worth it. Certainly not broken. At least if you were going to do that, Heirophant would be better then Contemplative, since it's specials are worth more then those of Contemplative if you aren't getting spells per day anyway.
The only reason for the last four levels of Contemplative is that I'm irrationally fond of the "no aging penalties" bit in combination with an Elan from the XPH. Six levels, though, nets an additional domain, so there's still reason to take at least one +Spellcasting level after hitting the 10th level Ur-Priest progression.

Full caster level (checked about text with 'semi-official' sources, When I looked at the errata for Complete Divine (last updated 2004, downloaded off of WotC's site yesterday), right at the top it lists that text trumps table. While it's probably a typo, as written, the 10 level progression interpertation is technically official for the English language version.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

1) Arcane Disciple isn't once a day. I'm talking about the feat that adds spells to your class list that you can then cast. Not as a Domain, but as spells on your class list. Yes it requires spells known for a Sorcerer, but so does benefiting from Rainbow Servant, and this you can access much sooner.

Ahem... from Complete Divine, Page 79:


you may learn these spells as normal for your class...(stuff about using Wis as your casting stat)... Each day you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domain spells of each level
Sorry, it is nowhere NEAR as broken as Rainbow Servant. First off, you choose a domain, and can only cast from that one domain. What if the spells I want are from several different domains? Second, it doesn't give them to you for free, it allows you to learn them as normal, in other words, you have to blow Spells Known slots. Third, it can, in fact, only be used once per day.



The Favored soul comment was solely aimed at the remarks about sorcerers taking the class, not the Beguiler/Warmage.

And I know what it does. My point is that that applies to levels 16-20. Ignoring for a moment that most games don't make it that far ever, that's 1/4 of the game. For the other 3/4ths you are not a Cleric, in fact, note even close.

You are right, a Beguiler, for the first sixteen levels isn't a Cleric, although he can UMD any clerical item, to duplicate many of the effects. Instead, he's a Skillmonkey (8+int/level), with the entire Rogue skill list, plus Spellcraft and Knowledge (Arcana), AND has all the Illusion/Enchantment spells, eventually getting up to 9th level spells. So he's just as good as a gestalt Rogue/Sorcerer who focuses exclusively on Enchantment and Illusion (which isn't a bad idea, you get both the Shadow Conjuration AND Shadow Evocation lines, so you can duplicate Contingency and Forcecage), only better, because he doesn't have a limited Spells Known list. Then when you hit 16, you get to add Cleric into the gestalt mix. Three classes for the price of one. Have a nice day.


And the Cleric is still better at buffing up and wading into melee then you. I beg to differ, in reguards to the Warmage. He's got the same BAB you do, picks up a feat to run around in Mithral Full Plate at no ASF, and can cast the horridly broken Wraithstrike to resolve all attacks as touch attacks in a round, as a Swift action. He can wade into battle just as good as, if not BETTER than, a Cleric. That's his job, and he's good at it.


The fact that with the right PrC and base class you can create a class set up that casts better then a Cleric (casts better because the Cleric has 10 levels of a different prestige class then you which gives him other benefits, not to mention Turn Undead and Armor and HP, and a better selection of Domains) for exactly 4 levels out of 20 is not broken.

That's four levels, out of 20, that are rarely ever played. (Because of course level 17 is better for the Cleric.) Then I guess we have different definitions of 'broken'. And I've run in plenty of level 20 games, and Epic games as well. I just disallow Epic spellcasting.


My contentions are:

For anything but Beguiler/Warmage(And Dread Necromancer?) the class isn't going to be taken.

For those classes, it forces them to play either 15 levels of Warmage (ouch) or 6 levels of Beguiler followed by 9 levels of gimped skills beguiler (Even more ouch because you used to be awesome) in order to get 4 levels of awesome.

After 10th level, your skills should be at the point where advancing them really doesn't matter anymore, as you should be having +20ish total mods on your important stuff. So he can still perform as a Skillmonkey (or alternately, grab a Wand of Knock to UMD and make his open Locks skill completely redundant) *AND* continue the important stuff: the casting. Then, once he hits 10th in RS, he becomes a whole heaping pile of Gouda, with the ability to cast every single cleric spell in the game, out of any sourcebook the GM allows, at any time, for any reason. If you can't see how horribly broken that is, then I guess I'm just wasting my time here.

If it's full spellcasting, there's not reason a Wiz or Sorc *WOULDN'T* take it. After all, it's not like they're loosing anything by NOT taking it, and the ability to pull Cleric spells out of your arse is possibly the most horridly broken thing I've ever heard of, even over and above Incantatrix. Not as broken as the Beguiler/RS, but still very broken, particularly for the Wizard, who can simply pick up another book of divine spells from the local temple and memorise them at need. The Sorcerer, to take maximum advantage, needs to have Psychic Reformation cast on him, probably through use of Lesser Wish to duplicate it's effects (it's only a 4th level Power, after all).

[Chronos]

You are right, a Beguiler, for the first sixteen levels isn't a Cleric, although he can UMD any clerical item, to duplicate many of the effects. Instead, he's a Skillmonkey (8+int/level),Nitpick: 6+int. And once he starts taking Rainbow Servant levels (probably at level 7), that drops to 2+int. There are a lot of things you can do with 9 ranks in a skill (especially with magical backup from spellcasting and UMD), but then there's also the skill arms race for opposed checks like Hide vs. Spot.

Still, though, Rainbow Servant gives you a lot to look forward to. It's more than just the capstone, too: The very first level gives you one of the alignment domains (Good, I think), which gives the Beguiler his first direct-damage spell, Holy Smite, and Control Winds and Control Weather are nice prizes at RS 4. Detect Evil and Detect Chaos at will can also be very useful in the sort of intrigue-heavy campaign that Beguilers work well in.

Oh, and before Chosen complains about this:
Second, it doesn't give them to you for free, it allows you to learn them as normal, in other words, you have to blow Spells Known slots.This is the case for both RS and for Arcane Disciple. RS is still better on the other two points, though.

[Ramza00]

Warmage came out in Minatures Handbook way before Complete Divine, Warmage was reprinted in Complete Arcane

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

You are right, a Beguiler, for the first sixteen levels isn't a Cleric, although he can UMD any clerical item, to duplicate many of the effects. Instead, he's a Skillmonkey (8+int/level),...Then when you hit 16, you get to add Cleric into the gestalt mix. Three classes for the price of one. Have a nice day.

1) Beguiler get's 6+int, not 8.
2) You know when you start taking awesome levels of Rainbow Servant? You drop to 2+Int, not such a skill monkey now. An you don't do that at 10, you do that at 6 and gimp yourself for the next ten levels in skill.

So in fact, Rainbow Servant completely destroys a Beguilers Skill Monkey role, even UMD.


I beg to differ, in reguards to the Warmage. He's got the same BAB you do, picks up a feat to run around in Mithral Full Plate at no ASF, and can cast the horridly broken Wraithstrike to resolve all attacks as touch attacks in a round, as a Swift action. He can wade into battle just as good as, if not BETTER than, a Cleric. That's his job, and he's good at it.

I beg to contradict you mistakes:
1) Warmages only have the same BAB if the cast Divine Power, since they have +1 every other level before they enter the class.
2) Warmages can't cast Wraithstrike. Welcome to the Reason Warmages suck. Because they don't get cool spells like that.
3) And lower BAB, and lower HD, and the Cleric didn't have to waste a feat on getting no ASF.


If it's full spellcasting, there's not reason a Wiz or Sorc *WOULDN'T* take it. After all, it's not like they're loosing anything by NOT taking it, and the ability to pull Cleric spells out of your arse is possibly the most horridly broken thing I've ever heard of, even over and above Incantatrix. Not as broken as the Beguiler/RS, but still very broken, particularly for the Wizard, who can simply pick up another book of divine spells from the local temple and memorise them at need. The Sorcerer, to take maximum advantage, needs to have Psychic Reformation cast on him, probably through use of Lesser Wish to duplicate it's effects (it's only a 4th level Power, after all).

Cherry picking Cleric spells versus Free Persist on all my buffs? Yeah I know which one I'm taking. But that's not really a question, I'd also take 100ft Telepathy, Seeing through walls, And assorted Viels over cherry picking Cleric spells at level 15. The only thing that Divine Spells actually offer over arcane are personal buff spells and healing, everything else is better on the Wizard list.

[Chronicled]

Warmage came out in Minatures Handbook way before Complete Divine, Warmage was reprinted in Complete Arcane

I felt like I was missing something. I guess there isn't really an excuse for the CD design team, then.


2) Warmages can't cast Wraithstrike. Welcome to the Reason Warmages suck. Because they don't get cool spells like that.

Eclectic Learning will let you, if you want it that badly.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

oh, and before Chosen complains about this:This is the case for both RS and for Arcane Disciple. RS is still better on the other two points, though.

Give me some credit, I'd much rather point out his numerous factual inaccuracies then slum over something so minor. RS is clearly better then Arcane Disciple, Except that Arcane Disciple doesn't rob you of 2/3rds of your prestige levels and is available before ECL 15.

[Chronos]

And while we're at it, obviously no wizard would ever want to take Incantatrix, because it takes away the opportunity to take some other PrC. And obviously, no wizard would ever take Initiate of the Seven Veils, either, for the same reason.

Seriously, the reason that wizards are the most powerful class is because they can pick their spells from such a huge list. How is making that list even huger not a worthwhile use of a prestige class?

[SoD]

Ooh...it seems my thread has caused a slight disagreement...

I beleive that someone asked why warmage instead of beguiler earlier: I don't know as much about beguilers. Warmages, them, I know about.

Let's see, if we want to look at the 'oh, the Rainbow Servant is awful because of the 2+int skill points! Oh noes! It makes the beguiler useless!' well, don't take it if you're a beguiler focusing on being a skill monkey. Warmages? They aren't skill monkeys. One of them, who can spontaneously cast any cleric spell? Yeah, yeah, clerics get miracle. Therefore they cast any spell that they want spontaneously. But...what level is miracle? A 9th level spell. What do you do if you want to cast an 3th level cleric spell, but are out of miracles for the day?

Going the warmage (or beguiler)/RS, you cast any cleric spell, but don't need to worry about the running-out-of-9th-level-spell-slots.

No, you don't get the 9th level spell slots, but hey! Neither do barbarians, or rogues, etc.

Yes, my argument isn't all that well thought out, but it's too early in the morning for me to construct one nicely.


Oh, and chosen...don't mess with Chronos...he has math stuff in his avatar.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

And while we're at it, obviously no wizard would ever want to take Incantatrix, because it takes away the opportunity to take some other PrC. And obviously, no wizard would ever take Initiate of the Seven Veils, either, for the same reason.

So you think a couple not so good domains are worth Persistent, Chained:
Greater Blink/Fly/Deathward/Lesser Vigor across the party?


Seriously, the reason that wizards are the most powerful class is because they can pick their spells from such a huge list. How is making that list even huger not a worthwhile use of a prestige class?

It's not because Wizards have a huge list, Clerics have a huge list too, it's because Wizards have a better list. There are three spells worth having from the entire Cleric list if you don't intend to enter melee combat:
Miracle, True Resurrection, Heal

That's it. Everything Else the Wizard can already do better by level 15.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So you think a couple not so good domains are worth Persistent, Chained:
Greater Blink/Fly/Deathward/Lesser Vigor across the party? No, but getting access to the entire Cleric list certainly is. And



It's not because Wizards have a huge list, Clerics have a huge list too, it's because Wizards have a better list. There are three spells worth having from the entire Cleric list if you don't intend to enter melee combat:
Miracle, True Resurrection, Heal

That's it. Everything Else the Wizard can already do better by level 15.

You had to go there, didn't you?

From the beginning, then...

Silence. Drop it near an opponent caster and he can't cast, unless he either has some way of spontaniously applying Silent Spell to a method of getting out of the area, or for some obscure reason knew before hand you were going to Silence him and prepared a Silent Dispel Magic for the purpose. Use Quickened in tandem with Evard's Black Tentacles to keep the opponent caster in the silenced area.

Zone of Truth. Good for interrigations.

Magic Vestments. Use in tandem with Greater Magic Weapon, Chain, and Reach to make the whole party's gear +5 of xyz, and with a duration of Hours/level, you don't need to persist it.

Death Ward. I don't know about you, but being immune to death effects, level drain, and negative energy effects is worth it by itself. Better still when Chained and Reached for the whole party's benefit.

Divine Power. Your BAB = your HD. Plus some other nifties. Double your BAB to make sure your attacks land? It's like a True Strike that lasts longer.

Freedom of Movement. Which Wizards don't normally get.

Poison. Because Con damage is always fun.

Plane Shift. A whole TWO spell levels sooner.

Slay Living. Like Finger of Death, only two levels earlier.

Raise Dead. Because picking up falled allies is a good thing.

Heal. D'uh. You already mentioned this, of course.

Heroes Feast. Because throwing a party which buffs the party is good. Use in conjunction with MMM, just before you leave to go out adventuring for the day.

Word of Recall. Because getting out of there with the party when you find yourself in a bad situation is a VERY GOOD thing.

Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos. Because no save death effects are fun. Plus it includes a Banish effect.

Destruction. Like Finger of Death, only nastier, and at range.

Regenerate. Because putting severed limbs back is good.

Resurrection. Okay, you did mention this one already.

Holy Aura. Like Protection from Evil... on crack. AND affects the whole party already, no need to chain.

Implosion. One critter a round for your caster level in rounds, fort save or die. Pretty cool, because while it's going on, you're doing a bunch of other things too.

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

No, but getting access to the entire Cleric list certainly is. And

Which doesn't happen until level 15, and still isn't worth it.


Zone of Truth/Magic Vestments/Death Ward/Freedom of Movement/Raise Dead/Heal/Heroes Feast/Regenerate/Resurrection/True Resurrection/Holy Aura

Okay, we must be operating under some fundamental disconnect here. Every spell here with the occasional exception for a Combat Heal and True Res if the Cleric dies can be done by the Cleric. If you for some crazy reason don't have a Cleric in your party, I still recommend you go Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge before Rainbow Servant, since you don't have to wait till level 15 to get these things, and you end up with more spells and 9th level spells sooner.

Would you rather be able to cast these spells in addition to the Cleric, or be able to chain all these spells across the whole party and Persist them (Or extend when that is better) with no spell adjustment?

I'd personally rather be able to Persist Death Ward/Freedom of Movement and chain those two and Magic Vestments (or a combat Heal, much more useful then being able to cast Heal, since it doesn't use an action).

At level 15! How many times do I have to say that. As a level 10-15 Wizard I like to be Persistently buffed with a bunch of good spells instead of thinking, "Man, in a few more levels, I'll finally be able to cast all those spells I could have been chaining across the whole party."


Divine Power

Not worth the slot if you aren't going to go into melee.


Poison/Slay Living/Word of Recall

All good spells. All obsoleted at level 15 when you would get them.


Plane Shift

A rare miss. Planeshift would be nice, not 10 levels of a PrC nice, but nice all the same.


Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy Word/Word of Chaos.

A series of awesome spells that would be great if you could get them on your list without ten levels of a PrC, because then you could combine it with Shadowcraft Mage, or Wizard/Sublime Chord/Ultimate Magus builds to get really nice CL. But without being able to do that, Divine casters already have the tools to use that effect better thanks to Prayer Beads.


Destruction. Like Finger of Death, only nastier, and at range.

Finger of Death is at range, doesn't have a focus, and has similar, though slightly less damage. At the first level you can cast them it's 3d6+13 vs 10d6.

7d6 averages 24.5, which means at level 15 when you get it you are paying 500gp and forcing yourself to carry around a focus just for 10 extra damage. Not worth it, I'd rather be able to cast my spells if something odd should happen to make me lose my focus, and I'd rather not spend 500gp for an extra 10 damage on a failed save of of one spell.


Implosion. One critter a round for your caster level in rounds, fort save or die. Pretty cool, because while it's going on, you're doing a bunch of other things too.

Wail of the Banshee, kill all those critters at once.