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Frosty
2008-04-01, 06:47 PM
A Parody of a Satire?

I like D&D, where most of the classes are reasonably balanced with each other or at least have their own unique role. One serious exception to this is the Fighter class, which is grossly underpowered. The Fighter supposedly fills the "meatshield" role. Unfortunately, it's by far the weakest melee class. For example:


Warblades: They have more hp, and have more options than the Fighter. Sure the fighter can use what little options he has all day, but his options are little.
Barbarian: This class really outshines the Fighter in the meatshield role. More HP, built-in DR, and Rage for even more HP? Blows fighter out of the water. To add insult to injury, he even has more skill points!
Paladin: Free horse that doesn't die from one hit. Hey, an extra body means more meatshielding! And also, has non-crappy saves.


People sometimes think Warblades are weak because of few Maneuvers known, however they actually have more tricks than the Fighter. A Warblade get over 40 feat-equivalent abilities over the course of 20 levels, and his ability to exchange known maneuvers for others is also a nice ability. Fighters however barely have more than 20 feat-equivalents by level 20, and they are set in STONE once chosen. Besides, a Warblade can easily gain access to additional moves by using Martial Scripts from the Tome of Battle. Having fewer feat-equivalent abilities and and needing to foresee the entire campaign when building the fighter makes fighters useless fairly quickly.

Fighters have no way of adding more tricks to their (small) book, with the exception of expensive custom items that grant feats. And all this assumes a high magic campaign where magic shops are available to begin with. If a Fighter wants to know a good number of tricks, they need to spend a lot of their wealth on it, instead of gear to keep themselves alive. This brings us to:

Fighter have an Achilles' heel that can easily be taken advantage of. Steal their weapon, and all the Fighter's abilities (and most of their wealth) are gone as fast as Superman's abilities when he's exposed to Kryptonite (unless the Fighter was built to pretend to be a Monk). No other class can be neutralized as easy, where playing a Fighter requires bribing and begging the DM not to make you useless. A naked Fighter can pick up a log, and be completely incompetent given that his Weapon focus doesn't work, and he takes a -4 non-proficiency penalty. Warblades can at least re-train their weapon-specific feats.

Melee is very reliable in D&D. I'm not denying that. However every class can smash things. The Fighter's fighting abilities aren't all that impressive, and can easily be equaled or exceed by other classes. Casters can cast Divine Power or Tenser's Transformation. Rogues make use of Use Magic Device, and every class can have use-activated and command word activated magic items. Sources like the Magic Item Compendium allow any character to spend their wealth on quality magic items and become a competent source of melee damage.

Fighters aren't even that fun to play. It's annoying to be stuck forever with the choices you make, since feats are your entire class abilities. A Warblade can switch out his strikes with 5 minutes of practice. A barbarian at least already have abilites that allow him to better tank and smash. Although a Fighter may look interesting on paper, when actually played in a real game this lack of versatility often makes them feel like a liability instead of an asset.

Every single one of the Fighter's so-called class "features" can screw over newbies. For example, the "oh look, you picked Monkey Grip instead of Shock Trooper. you don't have all feats and optimoal builds memorized. you will suck now" is one common example, where one wrong choice will reduce efficiency forever. A TPK involving a Fighter can actually be a good thing. If the Fighter loses a level, he may get to re-pick a feat at level-up! This brings us to:

Fighters are simply fragile. Sure they have good HP and Fort saves, but that is it. They will die to Fireballs faster than Rogues. They will kill the caster before commiting seppuku while Dominated. 2 low saves, and special defenses make them an easy target. Intelligent monsters will ignore characters like the Fighter in order to kill off the bigger threas first, meaning Fighters frequently try to tank monsters and end up being an afterthought. In other words, even if the Fighter was equal to other classes, the fact that the Fighter is usually a few levels behind the rest of the party due to not learning anything from his fights really negates that..

To restore class balance to our beloved game, I propose the following house rules to make the Fighter class not so underpowered:


Fighters get bonus gold. For each xp a Fighter earns, he gets one gold for free.
Fighters gain XP at a rate 50% faster than other classes, so they can gain gold even faster.
Fighter feats can be switched out once each day with a minimum of practice time.
Increase Fighter HD to d12, to keep up with the Barbarian and Warblade
Allow Fighters to have some sort of taunt ability, so enemies won't ignore them so much.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-01, 06:50 PM
Nice, but...in the fixes it says "Increase Wizard HD to d12". I'd fix that.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-01, 06:51 PM
You missed a few "Wizards" there, Frosty.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-01, 07:01 PM
And you left a Sorcerer that needs to be changed to Warblade.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 07:11 PM
I was in a hurry. Will change it now :smalltongue:

And what, is this not funny enough?

mostlyharmful
2008-04-01, 07:31 PM
I was in a hurry. Will change it now :smalltongue:

And what, is this not funny enough?

It'd be more funny if I thought your irony wasn't eclised by the blatent truth... face it frosty everything you said was true. How's that one sit with you? Your complete correctness has eclipsed your humour value. Sorry.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 07:36 PM
But...but...I used the exact same format and wording and tone of the other post, and even tried to keep the same type of complaints sometimes!

mostlyharmful
2008-04-01, 07:41 PM
But...but...I used the exact same format and wording and tone of the other post, and even tried to keep the same type of complaints sometimes!

Haven't you noticed yet? People on these forums are a lot more careful about what you say about fighters than what you say about wizards... that being said I just realized I'm past the 1st of April so I'm not sure how much of this can be taken seriously...:smallcool:

Frosty
2008-04-01, 07:42 PM
Haven't you noticed yet? People on these forums are a lot more careful about what you say about fighters than what you say about wizards...

I don't quite get what you mean. People talk about fighters all the time.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-01, 07:46 PM
I don't quite get what you mean. People talk about fighters all the time.

And the crazy lady down the street often brings up her cats in conversation doesn't mean I value them as people nor do I want to get in a real fight with just them as back up. I'd rather have the rewrite time and space and causality guy thanks all the same......

SadisticFishing
2008-04-01, 07:47 PM
Yeah, but Fighters actually ARE bad, unlike Wizards :P

Collin152
2008-04-01, 07:48 PM
But these things are all so true. And people know they are.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-01, 07:55 PM
But...but...I used the exact same format and wording and tone of the other post, and even tried to keep the same type of complaints sometimes!

Ahh, but the truth isn't funny, while obvious falsehoods(a type of satire) are. IF you changed focus from Fighter to Warblade(or another of the better melee classes), then it'd be funny.

streakster
2008-04-01, 07:57 PM
But these things are all so true. And people know they are.

There are some who do not agree, my friend. 59 pages of them, in fact.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=996349

(For clarity's sake: I agree, fighters are a bit weak)

Frosty
2008-04-01, 08:01 PM
Ahh, but the truth isn't funny, while obvious falsehoods(a type of satire) are.

I've always found the truth said in a sarcastic way to be funny, but maybe my sense of humor just sucks.

So what...people agree with my assessment of the Fighter? At least say that the recommendations are total satire,since some of them aren't meant to be serious :smallconfused:

mostlyharmful
2008-04-01, 08:05 PM
I've always found the truth said in a sarcastic way to be funny, but maybe my sense of humor just sucks.

So what...people agree with my assessment of the Fighter? At least say that the recommendations are total satire,since some of them aren't meant to be serious :smallconfused:

Um... No... Just so long as the gold earned is used in expendables and isn't part of WBL that has to be maintained by the DM over time then I'd say none of your ideas push Fighter out of their niche, over their desired power level or in any way make them broken... maybe still somewhat underpowered but oh well...

Kyeudo
2008-04-01, 08:08 PM
The problem with this one is it is too true to be funny, which makes it rather sad.

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-01, 08:08 PM
I've always found the truth said in a sarcastic way to be funny, but maybe my sense of humor just sucks.

So what...people agree with my assessment of the Fighter? At least say that the recommendations are total satire,since some of them aren't meant to be serious :smallconfused:

Well, sarcasm is as much tone as writing, so it is notoriously difficult to transfer across written media(note the number of people who use sarcasm tags for stuff like this).

I'd say that I dislike the fighter, primarily because I like options during normal game play, not just at level up. So I mainly play Skill-monkeys, casters, and ToB.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 08:55 PM
The problem with this one is it is too true to be funny, which makes it rather sad.

So you're saying my attempts to make the Fighter look bad to the point of ridiculousness fails because even when I try to use hyperbole and exaggerate, the rants hit just about the right amount of suckiness that is the Fighter?

That when you can read a hyperbole rant with a straight face and agree, then it is sad?

SurlySeraph
2008-04-01, 09:09 PM
Well, most of the fighter-specific feats are either very weak (I'm looking at you, Weapon Specialization!) or take too long to long to get to be worthwhile (I'm looking at you, Weapon Supremacy!). It's certainly possible to make a fighter build that can defeat the average Batman wizard. You could make an Ubercharger with high initiative that cuts the wizard in half before he can even cast a spell, a spiked-chain-monkey who smacks the wizard and breaks his concentration every time he tries to cast a spell or move, a grappler who just locks him up and keeps him from casting, an archer who shoots lots of holes in him in the first round, or just a guy with a sharpened stick and that item that projects an antimagic field around the wearer.

But all of the strong fighter build are only strong at one thing. The Ubercharger can kill almost anything, if it's at least ten feet away from him, and doesn't have an anti-charging feat, and hasn't readied an action to move out of the way, and is on even terrain, in a straight line, etc. etc., and the Barbarian can charge better than he can anyway. A Whirlwind Attack fighter has spent a ton of feats on the ability to kill a lot of really weak enemies - something the Wizard can do with a single fireball. A fighter with sufficiently pumped Power Attack can do a ton of damage - but that takes lots of strength and quite a few feats, and the Druid could just buff himself and turn into an enormous bear to do just as much damage. A battlefield control fighter can smack the hell out of anyone who provokes an attack of opportunity, but a Rogue with the right feats can do the exact same thing, plus a bunch of d6s of Sneak Attack.

A properly built fighter, with the correct items, can equal if not outdo any other class at a single task. Unfortunately, the fighter will suck at every other task and the other class won't.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 09:15 PM
So the solution is more feats? With more feats they can do more things!

Kyeudo
2008-04-01, 09:15 PM
So you're saying my attempts to make the Fighter look bad to the point of ridiculousness fails because even when I try to use hyperbole and exaggerate, the rants hit just about the right amount of suckiness that is the Fighter?

That when you can read a hyperbole rant with a straight face and agree, then it is sad?

Exactly. Even the proposed fixes sound reasonable. The first two are the ones furthest out there, but I can seriously see someone doing it.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-01, 09:57 PM
Well we haven't had a Wizards are the uber thread in a while so:


You could make an Ubercharger with high initiative that cuts the wizard in half before he can even cast a spell,

Which would be great if the Wizard didn't have better Init, better means of detection/hiding and thus the ability to decide when the fight starts, and started 150ft away while flying. And of course Foresight Celerity at later levels.


a spiked-chain-monkey who smacks the wizard and breaks his concentration every time he tries to cast a spell or move,

See the whole starting far away and everything else above, not to mention swift and immediate action spells allowing multiple casts per turn.


a grappler who just locks him up and keeps him from casting,

Do I even need to say it? Aside from the obvious insta I win button, and all the things stated above, there's also plenty of verbal only teleports, or SLAs to use.


an archer who shoots lots of holes in him in the first round, or just a guy with a sharpened stick and that item that projects an antimagic field around the wearer.

This one would actually have a chance if it weren't for the fact that ranged attacks do so little damage relative to melee. The Wizard can easily handle a round of attacks, and then continue with the killing things.

Frosty
2008-04-01, 10:09 PM
SurlySeraph was referring to an unoptimied, average wizard. He may only have the Core spells, so possibly Celerity is out.

In Core, it's hard to boost Initiative to always win against Fighter initative. No hummingbird familiar. No Nerveskitter. Remember, average wizard, not I pwnzor wizard.

an optimized Fighter doesn't have to stay in core, and ha plenty of stuff to boost initiative. A Raptoran with a haste ability might be able to close that 150 distance in one turn. If not, a Belt of Battle can give an extra Full-round action. An Archer can shoot two-round's worth with that Belt.

That said, even Core wizard will win a lot of the time thanks to Quickened Teleports that can bypass a lockdown build :( With Travel devotion, a Raptoran can fly up to its speed, and then charge. Or maybe use an item of Alter Self to become something with 120 fly speed. Hmm, Greater Ring of Counterspells can counter the first teleport, screwing the wizard over.

NEO|Phyte
2008-04-01, 10:11 PM
And so a new masterwork bastard sword copypasta is born.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-01, 10:50 PM
SurlySeraph was referring to an unoptimied, average wizard. He may only have the Core spells, so possibly Celerity is out.

He was not referring to an unoptimized average Wizard. He said an "average Batman Wizard." Batman Wizards are by definition optimized towards a certain strategy, but always optimized. so he was actually comparing it to an average optimized Wizard, who is very likely to have non-core spells, and almost certainly going to have better Init then an Ubercharger. Not to mention all the early detection and battlefield control of a typical Batman.

Woot Spitum
2008-04-02, 11:56 AM
Well, if this is meant to be humourous, I think the proposed fix should be more over the top. Something like these abilities:

Yeah, I got one of those too-Whenever the fighter buys a magic weapon, he gets ten more of equal or lesser value free.

I'm a fast learner-Whenever the fighter gains enough xp to level up, he gets two levels instead of one.

Been there, done that, got the stupid t-shirt-A fighter is considered to have all feats that are listed as fighter bonus feats as long as he meets the prerequisites.

Dedicated training-Whenever a fighter gains a level, he is allowed to take ten on HD rolls.

I'm like those annoying shamans from Diablo-Whenever anyone from the fighters party is killed, and the fighter is still alive, the spell True Ressurection is cast on them at the beginning of the fighters next turn. This does not cost the fighter money, hp, or even an action, it just happens even if the fighter does not realize that a party member has died. This ability stops working if the fighter is dead.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 12:15 PM
Well, if this is meant to be humourous, I think the proposed fix should be more over the top. Something like these abilities:

Been there, done that, got the stupid t-shirt-A fighter is considered to have all feats that are listed as fighter bonus feats as long as he meets the prerequisites.

Actually, that one might actually work...

MorkaisChosen
2008-04-02, 12:37 PM
In all seriousness, the Knight also beats Fighters hands down. Better tanking, better damage capabilities (your basic Challenge) and some taunt-style abilities (Test of Mettle to make people attack them, and Daunting Challenge to pretty much stun enemies).

_Puppetmaster_
2008-04-02, 12:56 PM
Been there, done that, got the stupid t-shirt-A fighter is considered to have all feats that are listed as fighter bonus feats as long as he meets the prerequisites.


You know, that ability would give a fighter weapon focus in every weapon in existance and infinite HP via toughness.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-02, 12:57 PM
Actually, that one might actually work...

Smart Wizard: Hey Fighter, take 2000gp and buy me a headband of intellect +2.
Dumb Fighter: Okay.
Smart Wizard: Now sell them all and buy me a +4.
Dumb Fighter: Okay.
Smart Wizard: Again, only +6 this time.
Dumb Fighter: Okay.
Smart Wizard with a DC 19 Color Spray at level 1: Muhahahaha!

Starbuck_II
2008-04-02, 03:47 PM
You know, that ability would give a fighter weapon focus in every weapon in existance and infinite HP via toughness.

Nah, I think you'd only get one version of the feat virtually. But since you have so many extra feats you could use your own feats for others.
Plus, Toughness was never a Fighter Bonus feat.

Frosty
2008-04-02, 04:37 PM
What about Improved Toughness?