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View Full Version : Make Your Own Outsider! [Base Class]



Xefas
2008-04-05, 02:50 PM
Unique Outsiders are denizens of the Outer Planes who differ from the usual sub-species inherent in their race. While most Unique Outsiders, such as the Archfiends of the Lower Planes, are elevated from a common species into their unique form, this class represents those who were born unique. This event transpires as a result of a coupling between a unique outsider and another outsider of a compatible type (whereas mortals simply bare Half-Breed children).

Hit Die: d8
Alignment: Any except True Neutral

Skill Points: 8 + intelligence modifier
Class Skills: Any eight skills, chosen at first level.

Unique Outsider
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+2|
+2|
+2| -
2nd|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Otherworldly Power
3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+3| Otherworldly Power
4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+4|Otherworldly Mutation
5th|
+5|
+4|
+4|
+4| Otherworldly Power
6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+5|
+5| Otherworldly Power
7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+5|Otherworldly Mutation
8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+6|
+6| Otherworldly Power
9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+6| Otherworldly Power
10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+7|
+7|Otherworldly Mutation
11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+7|
+7| Otherworldly Power
12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+8|
+8| Otherworldly Power
13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+8|
+8|Otherworldly Mutation
14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+9|
+9| Otherworldly Power
15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+9|
+9| Otherworldly Power
16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+10|
+10|Otherworldly Mutation
17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+10|
+10|Otherworldly Power
18th|
+18/+13/+8/+3|
+11|
+11|
+11| Otherworldly Power
19th|
+19/+14/+9/+4|
+11|
+11|
+11| Otherworldly Mutation
20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+12|
+12| Otherworldly Power [/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Unique Outsiders are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and are not proficient with any kinds of armor.

Racial Class: The Unique Outsider base class counts as both a class and race. Characters must enter this class at 1st level if they intend to make use of it, and do not choose a race during the creation process. Once a Unique Outsider multiclasses out of this class, they may never take levels in this class again (as they have reached their full growth as an Outsider).

Racial Features: A Unique Outsider begins their adventuring at either small or medium size (at the Outsider's choice), with a base movement speed of 30 feet, and a type of Outsider. In addition, they can choose one of the following racial features to manifest:
Otherworldly Mind: Either through extensive study, genetic memory, or a similar advantage, the Unique Outsider begins play with a bonus feat.
Otherworldly Body: The Unique Outsider was born with higher physical potential in certain areas. They gain a +2 bonus to two ability scores.
Otherworldly Relic: Forged from the souls of the Outsider's plane of origin, an item of great power is bound to the Outsiderís essence. This item can be either a weapon or a suit of armor, at the Outsider's choice. The type of weapon or armor is chosen by the Outsider at first level, and cannot be changed afterward. The Outsider can summon or dismiss the relic at will as a free action, and it is always summoned at full health. If the relic is sundered, it can be summoned once again as a free action on the Outsiderís turn. The relic immediately disappears if it leaves the Outsiderís possession for any reason. It begins as a Masterwork version of itself at first level (sized for the Outsider) and can be further upgraded by absorbing other magic items. Absorbing a magic item requires a day per 1000gp in its market price. Once absorbed, it crumbles to dust, and the Outsider gains a number of virtual gold pieces equal to the itemís market price. The Outsider can then use these virtual gold pieces to upgrade their Relic with weapon/armor enhancements or special materials at their normal cost. The total enhancement bonus cannot exceed the Outsider's class level. Artifacts cannot be absorbed by a Unique Outsider.

Otherworldly Hide: A Unique Outsider has a base natural armor score equal to their constitution bonus, and damage reduction equal to their class level. This damage reduction can be bypassed by silver if the Outsider is Lawful, or cold iron if the Outsider is Chaotic (ethically neutral Outsiders can choose). In both cases, the damage reduction can be bypassed by aligned weapons with a type opposing the Outsider's as well. (i.e. DR 10/silver or good or chaotic for a 10th level Lawful Evil Outsider)

Otherworldly Mutation: At 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th level, a Unique Outsider develops some natural inborn enhancement chosen from the following list. Each mutation can only be taken once.

Ability Increase: The Unique Outsider gains 4 points to distribute as permanent increases to their ability scores.

Ambidexterity: The Unique Outsider gains Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat. At 7th level, the Outsider can treat one-handed weapons as light weapons for the purposes of what penalty he incurs for wielding two weapons at once. At 13th level, the Outsider incurs no penalty for wielding two one-handed or light weapons at once.

Empowered Hide: The damage reduction the Outsider gains from their Otherworldly Hide class feature can no longer be overcome by a special material (i.e. silver).

Large Size: The Unique Outsiderís size changes from medium to large. If the Outsider possesses an Otherworldly Relic, its size also changes to match. This enhancement cannot be selected at 1st or 4th level. The Outsider must be medium size to take this enhancement.

Immunities: The Unique Outsider gains immunity to mundane disease. At 4th level, this extends to magical disease as well. At 8th level, this extends to all poisons. At 12th level, this extends to fear effects. At 16th level, this extends to energy drain. At 20th level, this extends to death effects.

Infiltration: The Unique Outsider gains telepathy out to 100 feet and can cast the spell Disguise Self at will as a spell-like ability. At 8th level, this becomes a supernatural ability. At 15th level, this becomes an extraordinary ability.

Natural Weapon: The Unique Outsider gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. In addition, when this enhancement is taken, the Outsider can choose either piercing or slashing. Afterwards, when the Outsider makes an unarmed attack, they can choose to deal bludgeoning or the type they had chosen. In addition, the Outsiderís unarmed strike deals 1d8 base damage. At 6th level, the Outsiderís unarmed strike, as well as any weapon they wield are treated as if they had alignment components matching the Outsiders' for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. At 11th level, the Outsiderís unarmed strike also delivers a dose of poison, requiring a DC (10 + Ĺ the Outsiderís class level + the Outsiderís constitution modifier) fortitude save and dealing 1d4 primary and secondary strength damage. If the Outsider is good-aligned, then, when choosing this enhancement, they may opt to have a "Ravage" instead of "Poison". The Ravage has all the effects of the normal poison, except that it is not effected by immunity to poison and only effects those of evil alignment. These benefits are retroactive.

Resistance: The Unique Outsider gains resistance to two energy types. The amount of resistance is equal to the Outsiderís class level.

Sight: The Unique Outsider gains perfect sight in both mundane and magical darkness, and can automatically see the alignments of every living creature within its vision. Spells and effects such as Undetectable Alignment effect this sight as they normally would. In addition, the Outsider can cast Detect Magic at will.

Speed: The Unique Outsiderís base land speed increases by 10 feet at 1st level. At 8th level, it increases by an additional 10 feet, and at 15th, it increases by another 10 feet. These increases are retroactive once the enhancement is taken.

Wings: The Unique Outsider grows a pair of wings, granting them a Fly speed equal to their base land speed (good maneuverability). The nature and style of the wings is up to the Outsider to choose. This enhancement cannot be selected at 1st or 4th level.

Otherworldly Power: At 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 11th, 12th, 14th, 15th, 17th, 18th, and 20th level, the Unique Outsider gains control of either arcane power born of their inherently magical nature, divine power drawn from their home plane, or purely instinctual martial prowess. Their caster level and initiator level are always equal to their class level. Any spells they gain from this class feature are usable once per day, have their DCs determined by Charisma, and invoke Arcane Spell Failure from armor (even the divine spells). Arcane spells are drawn from the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, Divine spells are drawn from the Cleric spell list, and martial maneuvers can be from any discipline. Martial Maneuvers are usable once per encounter, have their DCs determined by Charisma (Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Shadow Hand, White Raven) or Strength (Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw), need not be readied, and have no recovery method (Martial Stances cannot be selected).

At any time the Outsider would gain a spell or maneuver of a certain level, they may instead choose to gain a spell or maneuver of a lower level (such as an 8th level Outsider choosing to gain a 3rd level spell instead of a 4th level one).

At 2nd level, the Outsider can choose to gain two 1st level arcane spells, two 1st level divine spells, or two 1st level martial maneuvers (or a combination thereof).
At 3rd level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 2nd level arcane spell, one 2nd level divine spell, or one 2nd level martial maneuver.
At 5th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 3rd level arcane spell, one 3rd level divine spell, or one 3rd level martial maneuver.
At 6th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 3rd level arcane spell, one 3rd level divine spell, or one 3rd level martial maneuver.
At 8th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 4th level arcane spell, one 4th level divine spell, or one 4th level martial maneuver.
At 9th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 5th level arcane spell, one 5th level divine spell, or one 5th level martial maneuver.
At 11th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 6th level arcane spell, one 6th level divine spell, or one 6th level martial maneuver.
At 12th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 6th level arcane spell, one 6th level divine spell, or one 6th level martial maneuver.
At 14th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 7th level arcane spell, one 7th level divine spell, or one 7th level martial maneuver.
At 15th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 8th level arcane spell, one 8th level divine spell, or one 8th level martial maneuver.
At 17th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 9th level arcane spell, one 9th level divine spell, or one 9th level martial maneuver.
At 18th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 9th level arcane spell, one 9th level divine spell, or one 9th level martial maneuver.
At 20th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 9th level arcane spell, one 9th level divine spell, or one 9th level martial maneuver.

Vadin
2008-04-05, 03:03 PM
Seems fairly balanced at first glance (I'm admittedly not the best judge of this, though), and I love the idea.

Any chance this could be expanded to a far more general class? Just a more 'outsider' class that can be customized (much like this one, though perhaps a bit more) to fit any creature of the outsider type?

Expanding upon that, classes to make aberrations and magical beasts would be cool too...

Anyways, nice class!

Xefas
2008-04-05, 03:10 PM
Seems fairly balanced at first glance (I'm admittedly not the best judge of this, though),

Admittedly, it isn't very easy to balance against existing classes.



and I love the idea.

Thanks :smallsmile:


Any chance this could be expanded to a far more general class? Just a more 'outsider' class that can be customized (much like this one, though perhaps a bit more) to fit any creature of the outsider type?

Actually, I thought about that right before I posted it. Basically, with just some fluff changes, you could use it for any Outsider type. I'll work on changing it to a more generic version (and adding more options, of course).



Expanding upon that, classes to make aberrations and magical beasts would be cool too...

Those might be quite a bit more difficult, but I'll do some brainstorming on the idea.


Anyways, nice class!

Thanks, again. :smallsmile:

EDIT: It's done. I changed it to be applicable to any Outsiders.

Overlord
2008-04-05, 06:04 PM
Wow! That's an excellent racial class. I really like the idea, and it looks pretty balanced. However, I have just two balance concerns:


It looks a little too powerful at level 1, and maybe a few levels after that. I would take away its Mutation at level 1.
I'm worried about some wicked combination of high-level Cleric spells, Wizard spells, and Maneuvers. I'm not sure what to do about that, other than saying "Heavy DM discretion is advised," though. On a different note, though, you should probably say something like "A character can pick a lower-level spell or maneuver than is listed if he so chooses," so that at, say, 11th level, he can pick a 5th level spell if he wants to, instead of a 6th. Then again, that could aggravate the problem I just described. I don't think it would, though.


Other than those two things, I think everything else looks fine. Good work!

[Insert Neat Username Here]
2008-04-05, 09:06 PM
I would probably use this more to create new monsters easily than for a character, but it's good either way.

DarknessLord
2008-04-06, 02:06 AM
Now you need to make Halfling a raceclass again.
That aside, I'm wondering, why can't you get smaller? You can get bigger, but not smaller, and in some cases being smaller is an advantage.

Over all though, I like this class, and this is coming from someone who hates having to take ANY levels of racial hit die.

vegetalss4
2008-04-06, 05:05 AM
i think that this is a very cool idea, but why can't they multiclass before 21st level?

Xefas
2008-04-06, 10:46 AM
Wow! That's an excellent racial class.

Thanks :smallsmile:



I really like the idea, and it looks pretty balanced. However, I have just two balance concerns:

It looks a little too powerful at level 1, and maybe a few levels after that. I would take away its Mutation at level 1.

What about it would make it too powerful at level one? While doing some light playtesting, the only thing I found that would make it overpowered at early levels was grabbing Otherworldly Body, and using the Ability Increase mutation to stack a lot of +Strength. That's level 1 with a possible 24 strength, whereas the highest possible otherwise is the Orc with 22. So, maybe I should just limit Ability Increase like I did Large Size and Wings? 7+?



I'm worried about some wicked combination of high-level Cleric spells, Wizard spells, and Maneuvers. I'm not sure what to do about that, other than saying "Heavy DM discretion is advised," though.


I thought of that, as well. However, I think that if classes such as the Mystic Theurge don't run into this problem, and they have way more spells per day than this guy, then this one won't either.



On a different note, though, you should probably say something like "A character can pick a lower-level spell or maneuver than is listed if he so chooses,"

Good idea! I'll add that shortly.



I would probably use this more to create new monsters easily than for a character, but it's good either way.

That's the idea that spawned this, actually. I'm hoping it'll be viable for both.



Now you need to make Halfling a raceclass again.

Actually, I was thinking of doing some kind of Living Construct class next.



That aside, I'm wondering, why can't you get smaller? You can get bigger, but not smaller, and in some cases being smaller is an advantage.

I'll add that as an option at creation (starting either Small or Medium).



Over all though, I like this class

Thanks :smallsmile:



i think that this is a very cool idea, but why can't they multiclass before 21st level?

Well, most importantly, the class represents the Outsider's growth. Multiclassing out of it would be like a human growing up to age 9, and then Multiclassing into Fighter and never hitting puberty.

At 20th level, they're fully grown, and so they can multiclass after that as much as they want.

Keledrath
2008-04-06, 11:13 AM
This si sweet. I am in love with this class/race thing. Limiting the ability bonus thing was a good idea. Also, drop the thing limiting Good creatures on Posion. That makes this better for Evil and Nuetral. Change the Empowered Hide thing to 7+ as well, or else you'll have LN and CN things that take it at first and have DR that can't be beaten for a few levels. For the special weapon, add in that the total enchentment bonus can't be higher than the class level.

Copacetic
2008-04-06, 11:42 AM
Great work. I'm considering making a unique outsider for fun, this class s so awesome.

AmberVael
2008-04-06, 11:47 AM
This si sweet. I am in love with this class/race thing. Limiting the ability bonus thing was a good idea. Also, drop the thing limiting Good creatures on Posion. That makes this better for Evil and Nuetral.
It does, but this also gives good creatures the ability to attack and subdue people they don't want to kill far more easily even if they DO have poison. I can see that coming in handy for them. It's a very good aligned thing.

Change the Empowered Hide thing to 7+ as well, or else you'll have LN and CN things that take it at first and have DR that can't be beaten for a few levels.
It's doubtful you're going to actually come across someone with a cold iron/silver weapon at that level- and even if you do, because of the rarity, this ability will not be all that powerful. It's quite limited, really.


For the special weapon, add in that the total enchentment bonus can't be higher than the class level.

Agreed.

Xefas
2008-04-06, 12:18 PM
For the special weapon, add in that the total enchentment bonus can't be higher than the class level.

Done.

As for the other stuff, Vael's post sums up my own opinion on the matter.

Keledrath
2008-04-06, 12:38 PM
It does, but this also gives good creatures the ability to attack and subdue people they don't want to kill far more easily even if they DO have poison. I can see that coming in handy for them. It's a very good aligned thing.

Okay, I see your point on the other,s, but the way I read is that they CAN'T use the posion on a non-evil creature. I can see not being able to use it on Good creatures, but at least make it useable on Nuetral.

Xefas
2008-04-06, 01:06 PM
Okay, I see your point on the other,s, but the way I read is that they CAN'T use the posion on a non-evil creature. I can see not being able to use it on Good creatures, but at least make it useable on Nuetral.

That's a good point.

I'm torn on the issue. On the one hand, poison doesn't necessarily seem like a 'good' way of harming people, as it is rather an unpleasant experience. But, on the other hand, it's a way of subduing people without killing them.

However, the advantage of having a Ravage is that it isn't effected by Poison Immunity, which the vast majority (if not all) evil outsiders have. The downside is just that it only effects evil people...

Overlord
2008-04-06, 02:35 PM
What about it would make it too powerful at level one? While doing some light playtesting, the only thing I found that would make it overpowered at early levels was grabbing Otherworldly Body, and using the Ability Increase mutation to stack a lot of +Strength. That's level 1 with a possible 24 strength, whereas the highest possible otherwise is the Orc with 22. So, maybe I should just limit Ability Increase like I did Large Size and Wings? 7+?

My point wasn't that the Mutations are too strong; they're fine. But look at the class as a whole at first level:


D8 Hit Die--Not amazing, but definitely still good enough to allow an Outsider to serve as a front-line combatant.
8 skill points a level, and a pretty decent number of class skills.
Full BaB
All good saves.
Either a free feat, +2 to two ability scores, or a free masterwork item. This is pretty equivalent to the loss of normal racial bonuses, but it still counts.
DR 1/Whatever, depending on alignment.
A mutation, which could include things like another bonus feat, a natural weapon, or a speed bonus.


Overall, I think that's a bit too much for first level. Compared to other classes, I think: They could whoop the Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, Bard, and Paladin (not the most powerful classes in the world, but still...); could have a very good chance of beating the Barbarian, Wizard, and Sorcerer, and could probably go toe-to-toe with a Cleric or Druid, and maybe even have a better than even chance of winning. It's not that there's anything wrong with the Mutation in particular, it's just I thought that was the only thing that could be dropped that wouldn't also make the class too weak at higher levels. The class needs those good saves and BaB at mid and high levels. I just think that the Mutation would be pretty much the only thing that could be cleanly removed.


I thought of that, as well. However, I think that if classes such as the Mystic Theurge don't run into this problem, and they have way more spells per day than this guy, then this one won't either.

You're probably right, but the Mystic Theurge can't get both Wizard and Cleric spells of the same level as a full caster would. The Outsider does, and he also gets access to maneuvers. There's nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but like I said, I'm just curious if there's some unholy combination of 9th level Wizard Spells, Cleric Spells, and Maneuvers that would be crazy good. I can't think of any myself, though.

Primal Fury
2008-04-06, 04:47 PM
:smallconfused: i'm afraid i am quite confused by this class.
isnt... isnt what makes a unique outsider, such as the ones you posted here, unique is the fact that they have some sort of unique ability? such as... baalzebubs ability to vomit insects? or asmodeus's ability to to demand submission? or maybe its just the whole "race as a base class thing" thats got me.
and i have to agree with Overlord, that does seem like a whole lot to give someone at level 1.

Rizban
2008-04-06, 05:49 PM
I'm torn on the issue. On the one hand, poison doesn't necessarily seem like a 'good' way of harming people, as it is rather an unpleasant experience. But, on the other hand, it's a way of subduing people without killing them.Maybe instead of killing them, the "good" poison causes the victim to automatically stabilize but fall unconscious when they would normally die. The poison would remain 'active' and must be cured before they could regain consciousness.


I also have to agree that the race is a bit strong at 1st level but is otherwise pretty good. My suggestion would be to move the first mutation to 2nd level. I would also change the 21+ multiclass limitation. From what I see, there really wouldn't be a need to multiclass, but allowing them to multi at 11+ wouldn't really kill the concept. Instead of "full adult," they'd be branching out at "young adult" or "adolescent." Perhaps instead of that, you could give it a limitation like Paladins, where they can't ever increase this class again if they venture into something different.

Prometheus
2008-04-06, 06:07 PM
I might modify it so it is clear that you can only take each mutation once (something that I believe to be true from reading the posts).

Also, about Otherworldly Power, it seems to me that it would make sense to give them more weaker powers rather than fewer stronger ones, in order to mimic the spell-like abilities of Outsiders.

All in all, though, it seems like an excellent homebrew for monsters and NPCs (and easy to mod too, for those extra special characters)

vegetalss4
2008-04-07, 04:43 AM
Well, most importantly, the class represents the Outsider's growth. Multiclassing out of it would be like a human growing up to age 9, and then Multiclassing into Fighter and never hitting puberty.

At 20th level, they're fully grown, and so they can multiclass after that as much as they want.
yes but it might also represent that this kind of unigue outsider has a lower racial power. you know like an eryine or something like that. that could be represented with an multiclass note that it can never return to the class if it multiclass away.

katarl
2008-04-07, 05:39 AM
I really like this outsider class, and it would be very easy to customise it, just add new mutations!

How about this one:

Eyes of Death

Prerequisite: Must be from a plane connected to decay, death or undeath (such as Thanatos)
The Unique Outsider gains the ability to judge the remaining strength of creatures he can see within 60ft. He learns the remaining hitpoints and whether or not it has any negative status effects, and if so, which ones. If the effects are a result of a spell, he can make a spellcraft check to recognise which spell it was.
At 8th level, this ability improves, and the unique outsider becomes able to discern the likely time of death (natural death) of the recipient and it's age, as well as the particular type of any disease or poison affecting it. At 14th level, he learns the name and any types or subtypes the creature has (but not it's truename).

Also, how about spell resistance?

Xefas
2008-04-07, 01:04 PM
Alright, I changed the 'no multiclassing' to 'if you multiclass, you can't gain any more levels in this class', removed the level 1 mutation, added the specification that each mutation can only be taken once, and changed the thing about poison for good-aligned Outsiders. Now they can simply choose if they'd rather have a poison or a ravage (and noted the fact that ravages overcome poison immunity).

Rizban
2008-04-08, 01:43 AM
Sight: The Unique Outsider gains perfect sight in both mundane and magical darkness, and can automatically see the alignments of every living creature within its vision. Spells and effects such as Undetectable Alignment effect this sight as they normally would. In addition, the Outsider can cast Detect Magic at will.It's something I missed before in reading this one, but I don't think they should be able to automatically detect the alignments of every living creature just by looking at them. Maybe giving them detect alignment abilities as supernatural (or extraordinary if you want...) when they take Sight would be ok, but just automatically detecting the alignment seems a bit off...

Xefas
2008-04-08, 03:42 PM
It's something I missed before in reading this one, but I don't think they should be able to automatically detect the alignments of every living creature just by looking at them. Maybe giving them detect alignment abilities as supernatural (or extraordinary if you want...) when they take Sight would be ok, but just automatically detecting the alignment seems a bit off...

The alignment detection part of the mutation is based off of the Archon ability "Unerring Assay" which, in addition to automatically detecting everyone's alignment, is also completely unstoppable and immune to everything that masks or alters alignment.

Admittedly, I had, at first, planned on simply giving them the Detect Alignment spells at will, as you said. However, compared to some of the other mutations, it looked both weak and rather bland. Making it a continuous actionless detection seemed both slightly more useful and slightly more flavorful, so that it might warrant some serious looking over even when compared with the other options at hand.

That said, if you're willing to elaborate on how this is "off", and give good reasoning, I would certainly reconsider.

katarl
2008-04-08, 04:53 PM
I think this base class would benefit from an epic progression, particularly considering the nature of the concept. Also, it badly needs more mutation ideas.

Xefas
2008-04-08, 05:25 PM
I think this base class would benefit from an epic progression, particularly considering the nature of the concept.

I've already brainstormed for Celestial Paragon and Archfiend progressions for Epic Level, but haven't had the time to flesh them out. Admittedly, they aren't exactly high on my list of priorities, considering the number of people who play in the epic levels is slim, and the number of people who play in the epic levels and use homebrewed content that they themselves did not make is even slimmer.

Not to mention that I can't recall any official material being made for the big bosses of Lawful Neutral and Chaotic Neutral. What would we call them, anyway? Incredevitables? Slaadi-Ftaghn?


Also, it badly needs more mutation ideas.

While I enjoyed your previous idea in this regard, it seems more suited to an undead class or some kind of grim reaper.

jagadaishio
2008-04-08, 05:32 PM
I would suggest allowing the otherworldly relic to be a weapon or a suit of armor, chosen at first level.

Rizban
2008-04-09, 12:42 AM
I would suggest allowing the otherworldly relic to be a weapon or a suit of armor, chosen at first level.

I concur with this idea.

GoC
2008-04-09, 01:02 AM
*two thumbs up*

Maerok
2008-04-09, 12:01 PM
Reminds me of Tome of Fiends, but I like this better. Classes like these are great for custom bosses. I never got around to using it though. :smallfrown:

vegetalss4
2008-04-09, 12:07 PM
will you make other classes in the same style?

Flamewarrior
2008-04-09, 01:17 PM
Actually, I was just gonna suggest the Tome of Fiends (http://turing.bard.edu/~mk561/frank_k_0.5.1.pdf) (and the others from the same authors go together), in case the author hasn't read it already. Specifically, monstrous classes and feats, and "fiendish" (pretty much usable for anything else in many cases) spheres.

What I can say about this as-is is: no need to worry about spell-maneuver combinations, because there are already better ways of getting them than this, namely items and UMD; depending on your balance point (i.e. whether you use spellcasters mostly - not necessarily wholly - unchanged), it doesn't get enough stuff, actually; and you might support psionic powers too (For a crazier idea, maybe even use incarnum stuff for mutations?). Lastly, why ASF instead of making them SLAs (a lot of outsiders go around in armor)?

Xefas
2008-04-09, 01:45 PM
I would suggest allowing the otherworldly relic to be a weapon or a suit of armor, chosen at first level.

Done.


will you make other classes in the same style?

Suggestions?


Actually, I was just gonna suggest the Tome of Fiends (and the others from the same authors go together), in case the author hasn't read it already.

While I liked what the Tome of Fiends was going for, I found they executed it poorly. I had boundless trouble creating the fiend I wanted, and the whole thing had more balance issues than a three-legged grasshopper.


Lastly, why ASF instead of making them SLAs (a lot of outsiders go around in armor)?

A lot of Outsiders don't go around in armor. In fact, the only unique outsider I can think of off the top of my head that actually does is Raziel. Not to mention that if I balance towards using armor, then anyone who wants to use the class to create a non-humanoid Outsider is penalized for it.


depending on your balance point (i.e. whether you use spellcasters mostly - not necessarily wholly - unchanged), it doesn't get enough stuff, actually;

Well, my current party is Wizard/Druid/Cleric/Swordsage/Unarmed Swordsage.

While I'd love to balance the class towards the high end, I realize that the vast majority of people don't play with all full-casters and initiators.

Should I include alternate stuff for scaling it up to that point?

vegetalss4
2008-04-09, 03:04 PM
Suggestions?


how about an Undead one, or an elemental one, and what about that living construct one you mentioned earlier?

Flamewarrior
2008-04-09, 06:55 PM
While I liked what the Tome of Fiends was going for, I found they executed it poorly. I had boundless trouble creating the fiend I wanted, and the whole thing had more balance issues than a three-legged grasshopper.Care to go in depth? You could do it via PM, or even better, at the original ToF thread (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28828) - where I was thinking of raising your class and comparing it, BTW.


A lot of Outsiders don't go around in armor. In fact, the only unique outsider I can think of off the top of my head that actually does is Raziel. Not to mention that if I balance towards using armor, then anyone who wants to use the class to create a non-humanoid Outsider is penalized for it.I was thinking more "outsiders in general", and there is non-humanoid armor.


Well, my current party is Wizard/Druid/Cleric/Swordsage/Unarmed Swordsage.

While I'd love to balance the class towards the high end, I realize that the vast majority of people don't play with all full-casters and initiators.

Should I include alternate stuff for scaling it up to that point?You have to balance the current version towards something. Then, if you choose a low point, yes, it might be interesting to include a higher one as alternative.

celtois
2008-04-09, 07:59 PM
this is freaking awesome I look forward to reading more of you work

Kyace
2008-04-09, 08:29 PM
At 2nd level, the Outsider can choose to gain two 1st level arcane spells, two 1st level divine spells, or two 1st level martial maneuvers (or a combination thereof).
At 3rd level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 2nd level arcane spell, one 2nd level divine spell, or one 2nd level martial maneuver.
At 5th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 3rd level arcane spell, one 3rd level divine spell, or one 3rd level martial maneuver.
At 6th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 3rd level arcane spell, one 3rd level divine spell, or one 3rd level martial maneuver.
At 8th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 4th level arcane spell, one 4th level divine spell, or one 4th level martial maneuver.
At 9th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 5th level arcane spell, one 5th level divine spell, or one 5th level martial maneuver.
At 11th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 6th level arcane spell, one 6th level divine spell, or one 6th level martial maneuver.
At 12th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 6th level arcane spell, one 6th level divine spell, or one 6th level martial maneuver.
At 14th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 7th level arcane spell, one 7th level divine spell, or one 7th level martial maneuver.
At 15th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 8th level arcane spell, one 8th level divine spell, or one 8th level martial maneuver.
At 17th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 9th level arcane spell, one 9th level divine spell, or one 9th level martial maneuver.
At 18th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 9th level arcane spell, one 9th level divine spell, or one 9th level martial maneuver.
At 20th level, the Outsider can choose to gain one 9th level arcane spell, one 9th level divine spell, or one 9th level martial maneuver.
I personally like to see tables when I look for stuff so I hope you don't mind if I turned the above info into a table. Great class.

Otherworldly Powers Known
{table=head]Level|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st
2nd|2
3rd|2|1
4th|2|1
5th|2|1|1
6th|2|1|2
7th|2|1|2
8th|2|1|2|1
9th|2|1|2|1|1
10th|2|1|2|1|1
11th|2|1|2|1|1|1
12th|2|1|2|1|1|2
13th|2|1|2|1|1|2
14th|2|1|2|1|1|2|1
15th|2|1|2|1|1|2|1|1
16th|2|1|2|1|1|2|1|1
17th|2|1|2|1|1|2|1|1|1
18th|2|1|2|1|1|2|1|1|2
19th|2|1|2|1|1|2|1|1|2
20th|2|1|2|1|1|2|1|1|3[/table]

_Puppetmaster_
2008-04-27, 10:14 AM
Ooh. I like this. I think i'll use it.

lord of kobolds
2008-04-27, 10:48 AM
this class now has full kobold approval, and is therefore awesome!:smalltongue:

Stycotl
2008-04-27, 12:22 PM
this is along the lines of how wizards should have built all of their monsters--then they could have avoided retarded mechanics like level adjustment.

some issues though.

i think it is way too much to have both caster and initiator level equal to class level. the way i read it, they can qualify for feats and prc's from both at the same time, at the same high level. i would make them choose one as a focus, and the what ever other ones they take as minors. so bob focuses in martial maneuvers (i wrote marital maneuvers at first, but it would be inappropriate to go into details of what that would be...), and gets full initiator level there. after that, he chooses a few divine spells, and a psionic power or two (which i didn't see in my quick scan, but i think should be included), in which he gains a divine caster and psionic manifester level equal to 1/2 his class level.

i am confused as to what is offered at first level. admittedly, as stated above, i read it quickly, but i think that in any class table, the 1st level benefits should be clearly stated, and then in the ability descriptions, generally it is stated right after the name at what level they are gained.

Darth Stabber
2008-12-17, 05:37 PM
amazing, simply amazing.

alpha1
2009-01-01, 03:51 PM
i really love this class, ever thought of making a progression for dragons?

Pramxnim
2009-01-01, 09:38 PM
I really like the way this class is created. Great flexibility and awesome abilities that don't seem too overpowered. I do have a few gripes, however:

Firstly, about skills. 8+Int skill points per level and 8 class skills chosen at creation basically means they can max their skills w/o considering Intelligence at all (they just have to keep it at 10). This does not reward an Intelligent Outsider, as having to invest skills in cross-class skills don't seem very nice to me, and the way I see the class as it is now, Int could very well be the universal dump stat for anyone considering taking it. Not a good sign for a class meant for flexibility.
My suggestion would be either to decrease the amount of skill points gained per level or increase the amount of class skills they get.

Secondly, I think maybe having the spellcasting as a Cha-based system is a bit... restrictive. Same for maneuvers. I like the fact that you separated the disciplines based on their general theme (i.e. Str-based DC for more martial disciplines, Cha-based for others), but what about homebrew stuff? In general, I think the player should be allowed to choose which ability they're basing the save DC for their spells and/or martial maneuvers on, or just make it the ability score with the highest modifier (with the exception of Constitution of course. It'd make little sense to be able to cast stronger spells simply because you're exceedingly healthy... or would it :P?)

Thirdly, a minor gripe at most. You might want to specify that if the relic chosen at creation is a suit of armour, the Unique Outsider gains proficiency in its use. Otherwise, what would be the point of selecting a suit of armour as your relic?

All in all, great class. Looking forwards to more creations with the same theme :D. Dragons would be nice

Pie Guy
2009-01-01, 09:58 PM
This is a great class. Simply awesome.

Great threadcromancy, by the way, Darth.

Gorgondantess
2009-01-02, 02:58 AM
Oooh. Oh. Wow, this is probably one of the coolest classes I've ever seen... but man, it's powerful. Think about it: 1st off, how many classes have 8+int skill points AND BAB +1? None, I believe. Add to that a limited spellcasting ability that essentially makes it a sorceror with a lot less spells per day. And then there's all those other cool things, like getting +4 to ability scores, a fly speed, etc. On top of that you have DR, full saving throws, natural AC, all that. Compare this to, say, a bard: the bard can cast more spells, but not nearly as powerful. It has 3/4 BAB, D6 HD, 2 full saving throws, 6+ int per level, and then the music abilities which, I would say, are about as powerful as the DR and fly speed and other cool things. I may just be talking out of my a$$, as I'm not very experienced with these things, but it seems VERY powerful. At lvl 1-5 or so it could trounce almost any class, and even at lvl 20 it could probably go toe-to-toe with a wizard. Nonetheless, it's the coolest class I've ever seen, and I'm definitely going to play it sometime. funfun.:smallbiggrin:

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-11, 12:09 PM
Alright, I changed the 'no multiclassing' to 'if you multiclass, you can't gain any more levels in this class', removed the level 1 mutation, added the specification that each mutation can only be taken once, and changed the thing about poison for good-aligned Outsiders. Now they can simply choose if they'd rather have a poison or a ravage (and noted the fact that ravages overcome poison immunity).
If you actually have the BoED, you should know there's more to ravages than that. I think you should mention the differences, or at least say that it follows th rules in that book.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-11, 12:18 PM
i really love this class, ever thought of making a progression for dragons?

Friend's weird mouse, sorry to double-post.
Anyways, seconded

Origomar
2009-08-11, 01:02 PM
Its a cool idea for a class but i think its imbalanced, it seems to be able to trounce pretty much anything except the classes that everyone knows needs a nerf. I would put some limitations on the spellcasting, saves or BAB. Something like if you want high level spells your BAB goes down to 3/4. The only weakness it seems is that it has average HD.

Xefas
2009-08-11, 05:29 PM
Woah, I haven't actually checked this place in...what, over a year? Looks like there were two separate thread necros? 8 months and then 6 months after that. Makes me think I may have actually done a good job with this one.

The main thing seems to be more comments about balance. And I do have some information about that. I did get a chance to playtest this multiple times in the past year, sometimes in artificial scenarios specifically built to playtest it, and on a few occasions in one-time adventures. In a single case, I got to play one for a 3-4ish session arc.

At first level, the Outsider plays much like a less interesting and slightly less effective Warblade with the added bonus that it can do a little skillmonkeying if it was built that way. (I noticed that the way I handled class skills was a bit off. I need to change that.)

At the lower levels, if the Outsider is built for melee combat, it plays like a weaker, less interesting, but slightly more durable Warblade or Swordsage. If built for buffing, blasting, or debuffing spells, you end up not having enough spell slots to be of much use and end up meleeing a lot. If you just pick some utility spells, it ends up being kind of neat, but you fall into the same Fighter routine in combat "I move. I attack. I move I attack. I move I attack."

At mid levels, everyone is going into prestige classes and getting fancy abilities that, in many cases, stack with their current class(es). A prestige class is generally a power boost, even if a small one, and the Outsider doesn't have that luxury.

If you went the martial route, you'll be doing okay, with lots of per-encounter abilities, though without a recovery method, it hurts a lot when you miss, or need a specific maneuver (such as needing Mountain Hammer against a creature with DR).

If you went the buffing or blasting route, you'll be alright as long as there's not a Wizard or Sorcerer already fulfilling the same role in the party, as they'll heavily overshadow you.

The debuffing route, however, is kind of interesting. I found if you go with Otherworldly Body at 1st level and Ability Increase at 4th level, you can get a pretty high Charisma (with CHA boosting items, too, obviously), so your slightly higher than normal save DCs partially make up for your lack of variety or longevity.

The best method, I found, was picking up some lower level martial maneuvers, and some higher level AoE debuffs. That way you can throw down a couple big tide-changing spells, and not be bored out of your mind afterward with the "I move. I attack" routine. (At this point, I realized, I probably should have allowed the choice between the Cleric or Druid spell lists, as Outsiders like the Guardinals would probably prefer the latter.)

At higher levels, I think things more or less panned out. You're still hurting for a recovery method if you went all-martial. If picked your spells very carefully as you leveled up, you'll be like a slightly less deadly, slightly more durable Sorcerer. You have no crazy Prestige Class capstone, which is annoying.

All in all, you're still probably better off refluffing an existing class. At the very least, your group is less likely to call 'Overpowered!' on you the first time you pull off something halfway interesting, than they would be if you were playing a homebrewed class.

I'm thinking of remaking this class, only better. In fact, I've probably been thinking that for a good six months now. I think I need to sort out the multiclassing thing first. The problem is that a base class that's worth taking for 20 levels is overpowered for a base class.

Lots of new mutations (or whatever I'll be using as their equivalent) are a must as well...hmmm...

Anyway, hopefully the next version of this class will fix...err...ideally, everything.

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-12, 10:12 AM
Anyway, hopefully the next version of this class will fix...err...ideally, everything.

Hopefully including adding classes for magical beasts, DRAGONS, abberations (lots of mutations needed there), etc.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-08-12, 10:47 AM
Anyway, hopefully the next version of this class will fix...err...ideally, everything.

I can't wait for this next version. I'm sure it will be awesome.

Random832
2009-08-12, 11:12 AM
Racial Class: The Unique Outsider base class counts as both a class and race. Characters must enter this class at 1st level if they intend to make use of it, and do not choose a race during the creation process. Once a Unique Outsider multiclasses out of this class, they may never take levels in this class again (as they have reached their full growth as an Outsider).

This doesn't make sense - IIRC Dragon PCs are supposed to take on more RHD as they age even if they have class levels. Why couldn't a not-fully-grown outsider start taking levels in e.g. rogue?

Gorgondantess
2009-08-12, 01:26 PM
Hopefully including adding classes for magical beasts, dragons, ABERRATIONS (lots of mutations needed there), etc.

Fixed it for ya.:smalltongue:

Ouranos
2009-08-12, 01:45 PM
I like how you can basicly create your own Outsider being to whatever point of outsider ability you wish, then take class levels, without the clunkiness of the LA system. LA's can REALLY hurt you if you stick to the main books because of the lowered attack bonuses, health, skills, etc. This lets you custom build your own of essentially +1LA or higher, either as an NPC or your own character, with your own comfortable abilities, and then when he's fully mature, he can take class levels without penalty.

Trodon
2009-08-12, 02:40 PM
This class is awesome I'm going to use it in a game.

Origomar
2009-08-12, 02:56 PM
I like how you can basicly create your own Outsider being to whatever point of outsider ability you wish, then take class levels, without the clunkiness of the LA system. LA's can REALLY hurt you if you stick to the main books because of the lowered attack bonuses, health, skills, etc. This lets you custom build your own of essentially +1LA or higher, either as an NPC or your own character, with your own comfortable abilities, and then when he's fully mature, he can take class levels without penalty.

they arent always lower.

Owrtho
2009-08-12, 06:10 PM
Fixed it for ya.:smalltongue:

This fix does seem quite accurate.

Owrtho

Gorgondantess
2009-08-12, 06:18 PM
This fix does seem quite accurate.

Owrtho

Doesn't it though? I mean, it just seems so much better.:smalltongue:

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-13, 08:30 AM
Fixed it for ya.:smalltongue:

For you, maybe. Me, I'm a dragon. I suppose, though that "magical beasts, DRAGONS, Aberations (lots of mutations needed there), etc," could work for both of us.

Gorgondantess
2009-08-13, 01:21 PM
Actually, Greatwyrmgold, I'm sorry. I didn't fix it for you.


Hopefully including adding classes for magical beasts, undead, Aberrations, (lots of mutations needed there), etc.

Now I've fixed it for you.:smalltongue:

aje8
2009-08-13, 09:14 PM
This. Class. Is. Awesome. I commend you on excellent work.

Call me very impressed.

Owrtho
2009-08-13, 09:28 PM
Actually, Greatwyrmgold, I'm sorry. I didn't fix it for you.

Now I've fixed it for you.:smalltongue:

Now, now. While that does look quite nice, dragons are rather awesome in their own right, and as such don't deserve to be taken entirely off the list. How about a compromise.

"Aberrations (Augmented, Dragon), Aberrations (lots of mutations needed there), dragons, magical beasts, etc,"

Owrtho

GreatWyrmGold
2009-08-16, 08:21 AM
Now, now. While that does look quite nice, dragons are rather awesome in their own right, and as such don't deserve to be taken entirely off the list. How about a compromise.

"DRAGONS, Aberrations (Augmented Dragon), Aberrations (lots of mutations needed there), magical beasts, etc,"

Owrtho

Fixed the fixing.

Gorgondantess
2009-08-16, 12:43 PM
:sigh:
Okay, we're done now. Let's just quietly leave the thread and pretend it neeever happened.

Ouranos
2009-09-25, 01:21 AM
So, going to be using this and this ( http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123822 ) to make my paladin character exactly they way he should have been but the base D&D can't handle. Probably 4-5 in the Outsider, then several levels of paladin, mixed with Kensai or Fighter. No, he isn't supposed to be a min-max build, the people I play with don't understand any of that thankfully. I've always been stuck either as Aasimar or Half-Celestial for my builds, and LA's just flat annoy me. This system lets me get the powers i want without having to start at character level 5 and only 15 hp.

Ouranos
2010-07-10, 10:24 AM
By the way, i know this thread is fairly old and I was the last post nearly a year ago now, but revisiting it and had a question. Can the Manuvers be traded in for higher level ones at any point? Just wondering because manuvers progressing into more powerful ones was always pretty important in TOB.

Roland St. Jude
2010-07-10, 10:38 AM
By the way, i know this thread is fairly old and I was the last post nearly a year ago now,...

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