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gkarrish
2008-04-08, 01:44 PM
I am looking for extensive advice on rolling up a level 12 (preferably human, but would consider elf) Rogue Archer. I want to hear how you would prioritize abilities, skills, feats, class special abilities, equipment, short vs. long bow... everything.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I've been instructed as follows - Us the PHB and the 32-point-buy system from the DMG for stats. Also get your starting gold from the DMG as well. Buy whatever you want, just NO artifacts.

I am completely new to D&D, so please explain in simple terms. I have the PHb and that is IT, so no prestige classes please. (My first idea was to create a wizard, but that quickly became an overwhelming proposition, even when I spent copious amounts of time reading.) I'm going to meet up with a group of more experienced gamers, and I just want a rogue who will be useful and fun to play.

Thanks in advance!

Person_Man
2008-04-08, 02:16 PM
Welcome to the game. Rogues aren't particularly powerful, and don't make particularly great archers. But its a common and fun build. Here are some basic elements you'll need:

1) Feats: Point Blank Shot->Rapidshot->Manyshot->Greater Manyshot (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)): This allows you to move (and Tumble, if necessary), fire a bunch of arrows, and have Sneak Attack apply to every arrow. Without it, you need to make a full attack action if you want Sneak Attack to apply to every arrow. And that can be dangerous, because Rogues have low hit points and AC.

2) Find a way to deny your enemies their Dex bonus on every attack. This allows you to apply Sneak Attack on every attack. Common methods are Greater Invisibility (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibilityGreater.htm) or a Ring of Blinking (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Ring_of_Blinking_(Magic_Ring)), but there are many others as well.

3) Invest in the Use Magic Device Skill (Commonly abbreviated UMD). It lets you use Wands and other items that you normally couldn't use, giving you access to things like Greater Invisibility.

4) Enhancement bonuses from magic items don't stack, but their magical properties do. So if you have a +1 Flaming Bow and fire +1 Shocking Arrows, you fire +1 Flaming Shocking attacks. So its common for archer builds to spend all/most of their money on a powerful bow with a variety of ammo, all loaded up with a ton of magical properties, and then have a friend or wand to cast Greater Magic Weapon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicweapongreater.htm) on your bow to up the enhancement bonus. You should also be sure to mix in ammo made from a variety of metals (Silver, Adamantine, Cold Iron) in order to bypass damage reduction when called for.

This should help a lot, and its all on the SRD, so you won't need any esoteric splat book to pull it off.

Devils_Advocate
2008-04-09, 06:04 PM
Are you saying that you're limited to material from the PHB, except for equipment, or just that that's the only book you own? Because most of the stuff from the Monster Manual and DMG can be found in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm). And I was all set to explain how pixies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie) make awesome Rogues...

dman11235
2008-04-09, 06:18 PM
Pixies do make awesome rogues. And they have Greater Invisibility constant, so no worries on the being seen part either. However, when that cleric comes along with Invisibility Purge up, you're going to want hide maxed. This is where Greater Manyshot comes in. You can come out of hiding, fire your arrows, and run away and hide using that movement. Note that this only works if you have Fly-By Attack! Shot on the Run is limited to an attack action, whereas FBA is any standard action.

Now, Person, what planet are you living on to think that rogues aren't particularly powerful? They have UMD.

For arrows: get a Quiver of Ehlonna (or two) and put in it a few of differing materials, but mostly normal. I'd say 1/2 normal, then split up the rest. Also, put general enhancements (wounding, Seeking, etc.) on your bow, and anything like Bane or Holy put on arrows. Holy may be applied to your bow, but I'd shy away from it and put more general enhancements on it. Also, make your bow +1, and then only put special qualities on it after that. Use GMW (linked by Person_Man) to up your enhancement bonus.

gkarrish
2008-04-09, 07:19 PM
First, thanks for all the input so far. It sounds to me like greater manyshot = good.

I am not necessarily limited to just what's in the PHb, it's just that I didn't realize so much information can be found online (SRD). If pixies are documented in core books and on that site, I can use them.

What do you think about ability placement? I know I should place Dex and Int pretty high, but beyond that I am open to suggestions.

Any advice as to skills would be welcome, too. I figure that the basics include spot, listen, hide, move silently, search, open lock, and sense motive. It sounds like I should grab UMD also. What do you think about balance, jump, climb, bluff, appraise, intimidate, tumble, escape artist, disguise, and diplomacy? Any others that you would suggest training?

Regarding the class special abilities, I'll only be able to choose one at level 12. Do you have strong preferences among defensive roll, improved evasion, opportunist, skill mastery, and slippery mind?

This probably is a dumb question, but should I use a short bow or train to use a long bow? Also, is there any reason not to use a composite (short or long) bow?

On the same note of "I'm sure this is very basic but I am clueless," how can I determine how much gold I should have, since I am starting at level 12? Where can I see available items and "shop" for weapons, armor, and assorted equipment?

Thanks for being patient with me... it's a steep learning curve at the beginning, and I appreciate all the advice I can get!

JaxGaret
2008-04-09, 08:15 PM
First, thanks for all the input so far. It sounds to me like greater manyshot = good.

Greater Manyshot = very good for a precision-damage based archer. It's just about the best route you can take, particularly if you are playing SRD-only.


I am not necessarily limited to just what's in the PHb, it's just that I didn't realize so much information can be found online (SRD). If pixies are documented in core books and on that site, I can use them.

Just in case you don't know about it, d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm) is the best SRD site. It has all the latest errata, and is easily navigable with its many hyperlinks.


What do you think about ability placement? I know I should place Dex and Int pretty high, but beyond that I am open to suggestions.

Dex > Con > Wis > Int > Cha > Str

Con is much more important than Int, for survivability reasons. You get base 8 sp/level anyway, 9 if you're a Human (Human is better than Elf, btw). And Wis is good for perception and Will saves, both of which are important to you. Cha helps with UMD and bluffery. Str doesn't really give you much other than a point or two of extra damage if you use Composite bows, but I'll address that later.


Any advice as to skills would be welcome, too. I figure that the basics include spot, listen, hide, move silently, search, open lock, and sense motive. It sounds like I should grab UMD also. What do you think about balance, jump, climb, bluff, appraise, intimidate, tumble, escape artist, disguise, and diplomacy? Any others that you would suggest training?

Tumble, Tumble, Tumble. Max it out. You'll have to decide whether you are a face rogue or skill rogue. If you are a face rogue, get whatever of the bluff/intimidate/gather info/diplomacy/disguise you want. Note that that is a LOT of skills. It would be easier to just drop those and go with the usual stealth/sneak skills, which you already listed. Get 5 ranks in any skills that give synergies (Balance, for instance).

Other than that, just max out whatever skills you like.


Regarding the class special abilities, I'll only be able to choose one at level 12. Do you have strong preferences among defensive roll, improved evasion, opportunist, skill mastery, and slippery mind?

Skill Mastery is awesome, especially for UMD.

Improved Evasion is okay, but if you pass your Reflex save, you didn't gain any additional benefit of having IE over regular Evasion.

Defensive Roll is okay, but usually either the DC is too high, or it doesn't even come into play (you should be trying really hard not to be taken out by HP damage, since blasters won't typically be dealing it you due to your Evasion, and big baddies are things you should be actively avoiding getting stomped by).

Opportunist sucks for you because you are a ranged attacker, and will almost never effectively use that ability.

Slippery Mind is a good ability. Nothing wrong with extra saving throws.

And don't forget Crippling Strike. Ability damage in general is a very good idea, particularly at 2 points a pop with no save!


This probably is a dumb question, but should I use a short bow or train to use a long bow? Also, is there any reason not to use a composite (short or long) bow?

If you're thinking about blowing a feat on Longbow proficiency, don't do it. The Shortbow deals only 1 damage less per arrow, which is no big deal. Plus, you're going to be dealing most of your damage from close range (Sneak Attack is limited in range), so the extra range increment from the Shortbow to Longbow doesn't matter much.

Composite Bows are good if you have a high Str bonus, but if you have a low Str bonus, you should just go with a regular bow. Why? Because if your Str is ever dropped for some reason, all of a sudden you are taking minuses to hit on every single attack - was that extra 1 or 2 damage worth it now?

Also, using regular bows lets you dump Str and focus on better ability scores.


On the same note of "I'm sure this is very basic but I am clueless," how can I determine how much gold I should have, since I am starting at level 12?

DMG.


Where can I see available items and "shop" for weapons, armor, and assorted equipment?

The SRD, which I posted for you above. Or various splatbooks, like the MIC, if they are allowable in your campaign.


Thanks for being patient with me... it's a steep learning curve at the beginning, and I appreciate all the advice I can get!

You're welcome :smallsmile:

dman11235
2008-04-09, 08:49 PM
1st: the pixie was linked by Devil's_Advocate. It's in the monster section of the SRD.

2nd: I forgot to say so earlier, but check out my Handy Haversack, it has links to so many useful things, the SRD, Errata, FAQ, X stat to Y bonus, etc.

3: pixie>(imo)human>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>elf(fact).

4: stats: dex>con>int>cha>wis>str. Then still it depends on what you're aiming for and your race. But basically, dex>the rest and dump str (you don't need it, and if you are playing a pixie, you'll have sucky str no matter what).

5: skills: tumble is the most important for you. Hide/MS are also primary needs. After that, it depends on your build and what you're aiming for. Also, UMD is excellent.

6: Slippery Mind would be my suggestion. Or Crippling Strike. Or a bonus feat. Skill Mastery is nice, but you can't take 10 with UMD. If you want it for things like hide/MS/tumble go ahead.

7: Don't use a longbow. It's not worth a feat to deal an extra 1 point of damage. Heck, depending on your str, don't even bother with a compound short bow, you apply your str penalty anyways. If you have str>12, get a composite short bow.

8: Check the link Crystal Keep in my Handy Haversack. It has a lot of equipment from everywhere. It only lists a basic description and where to find it though, so you need access to the actual book to use the equipment. Other than that, you'll want to check out the MiC, it has some nice things for archers. Also, the SRD has Seeking, Wounding, Bodyfeeding and Collision (last two in psionics), the MiC has Transmuting and Vampiric, and CoR has Splitting (if you can, get this one. Doubles your damage). Find your starting wealth with your DM, who will likely say page 135 of the DMG.

Chronos
2008-04-09, 08:58 PM
For arrows: get a Quiver of Ehlonna (or two) and put in it a few of differing materials, but mostly normal. I'd say 1/2 normal, then split up the rest.Eh, there's no real advantage of completely normal arrows over cold iron arrows. Cold iron itself is really cheap; it only gets expensive when you enchant it. So if you're getting your magic from your bow, you might as well use cold iron arrows, and be prepared in case you actually need it.\


Skill Mastery is awesome, especially for UMD.It would be, except that it doesn't work for UMD. Skill Mastery just means that stressful situations won't stop you from taking 10, but you can't take 10 on UMD even in non-stressful situations.

Also, in your list of skills, you didn't include Disable Device. This is the skill you use to disarm traps, and is generally considered one of the high priorities for a rogue.

For ability scores, I personally would recommend putting Int at the second-highest. Yeah, 8 skill points per level is a lot, but you also have lots of class skills to spend them on. 10 or 11 skill points are about enough that you won't really be hurting for them, so a 14 or 16 Int is good if you can get it (12 or 14 as a human). Wis and Con will indeed help your saving throws, and Con your HP, but a rogue's best defense is not getting targeted in the first place.

On the special abilities, JaxGarret didn't mention Crippling Strike, but it can also be good, if you're focusing on combat. Ability score damage is usually better than HP damage, since it hinders enemies it hasn't yet finished off. I'd still recommend Skill Mastery before it, though.

Finally, you might want to consider multiclassing. Two levels of Ranger will give you a feat you'll want for free, as well as increasing your base attack bonus a bit, giving you access to martial weapons, and letting you choose a favored enemy, at the cost of a handful of skill points. As a human, you won't get any penalties to experience, even if your ranger and rogue levels are widely separated. Another class you might want to look into is the Shadowdancer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/shadowdancer.htm) prestige class: The Hide in Plain Sight ability at level 1 is sweet, but the prerequisites for the class (especially the feats) are pretty steep. Whether it's worthwhile will depend on your playstyle, but it's something to take a look at.

JaxGaret
2008-04-09, 09:08 PM
It would be, except that it doesn't work for UMD. Skill Mastery just means that stressful situations won't stop you from taking 10, but you can't take 10 on UMD even in non-stressful situations.

Yeah, woops, I totally knew about that and forgot it. Sorry :smallsmile:


Also, in your list of skills, you didn't include Disable Device. This is the skill you use to disarm traps, and is generally considered one of the high priorities for a rogue.

That is, if the DM includes traps in the campaign - I don't know anything about that specific module, are there traps in it?


For ability scores, I personally would recommend putting Int at the second-highest. Yeah, 8 skill points per level is a lot, but you also have lots of class skills to spend them on. 10 or 11 skill points are about enough that you won't really be hurting for them, so a 14 or 16 Int is good if you can get it (12 or 14 as a human). Wis and Con will indeed help your saving throws, and Con your HP, but a rogue's best defense is not getting targeted in the first place.

I agree that not getting targeted in the first place is a priority for a Rogue, but planning on it and executing are two different things - sometimes you will get smashed or enchanted. That is why I recommended Wis and especially Con over Int, but I generally like to have as much defense against magic as possible due to it being the biggest threat, usually. YMMV. Also, as I stated, Wisdom increases your perception abilities, which lets you avoid danger in the first place.

FWIW, I see no real problem with prioritizing the stats your way, Chronos. It can work fine. I just like a different order.


On the special abilities, JaxGarret didn't mention Crippling Strike, but it can also be good, if you're focusing on combat. Ability score damage is usually better than HP damage, since it hinders enemies it hasn't yet finished off. I'd still recommend Skill Mastery before it, though.

Agreed. I actually edited my post to include Crippling Strike before you posted this, Chronos.


Finally, you might want to consider multiclassing. Two levels of Ranger will give you a feat you'll want for free, as well as increasing your base attack bonus a bit, giving you access to martial weapons, and letting you choose a favored enemy, at the cost of a handful of skill points. As a human, you won't get any penalties to experience, even if your ranger and rogue levels are widely separated.

Darn, I knew I forgot something I wanted to add. Yes, adding two levels of Ranger is pretty nice for a ranged archer Rogue build. A level in Sneak Attack Fighter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) is decent, too.

dman11235
2008-04-09, 09:21 PM
Point on the Cold Iron. But if you can get Force (MiC), then you don't need any arrows other than normal.

Also, Rapid Shot isn't a prereq for GMS, is it? If not, then you don't really need those two levels of ranger, unless you have a guaranteed way to be unseen while not hiding. And I'd much rather be a pixie and be able to go from somewhere a good deal away from the battle and pop in, fire off a few sleep arrows with GMS, and pop back into hiding. Ring of Entropic Defense (MiC) works really well with this, especially when combined with my Anklets of Swift Flying (See Handy Haversack).

JaxGaret
2008-04-09, 09:29 PM
Also, Rapid Shot isn't a prereq for GMS, is it?

It is a prereq (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot).

dman11235
2008-04-09, 09:49 PM
Dang. Oh well. Two levels of ranger can be useful then.

Hawriel
2008-04-09, 10:39 PM
for all your base character info you can just use the PHB to get your stats feats and skills in order. The GM's guide will tell you how much gold your character would have at X level. For getting magic items I suggest looking through the magic items in the GM"s guide then read about creating costome magic items. This will give you the base cost of what you want to create. Then just pay for it out of the gold the GM's guide alots you for being 12th level.

For the race I recomend human. You get an extra freat and a crap load more skill points. When you play a non human character you will see the difference in skill points. I always recomend playing a human if your going to be a skill heavy class.

Stats.
Point buy is in the DM's guide. Dex will be your main stat. I'll lay out some stats with the idea of useing a compound bow.
Str 14 Dex 18 Con 12 Wis 11 Cha 10. This also includes the 3 bones points obtained at 4th, 8th and 12th level. I figure your not going to be the face of the party. The con will give you 12 more HP as well as a +1 to fort saves. Again you can always invest in a magic item that protects against charms, illusions and mind effecting stuff.

If you want to inpruve your fighting ability and hit points I suggest grabbing some levels in Ranger. Both these classes have complementery class skills, move silently, hide, search, spot are the big ones. You would gane in the fort save and your reflex saves would not suffer from this multie classing. Your will saves will suck because that is the cross a non casting character must bare. In addition you pick up the tracking feat for free and an archery feat at second level. You also, and this is the biggest reason from grabbing ranger levels, get martial weapons feat. If its not an exotic weapon you can use it. If you stay a pure rogue you would need to burn a feat in order to use a longbow. So your stuck with a shortbow or a crossbow. Brings us to weapons.

Skills. because your going to be wearing light armor stealth is your friend. So max out hide, move silently, search, spot, and disable device (trap removal). I also recomend maxing out one social stat. My choice is Bluff. Its used for alot of things, lying your butt off to get out of trouble ( short hand diplomecy) and you use it to faint in combat. Licen, climb, use rope, tumble, open locks, sence motive,and maybe throw in knowledge local or geography. These stats are important but you can pass on being secondary. If your pick locks in found to be not good enough just remember a good crowbar is a part of any rogues toolset. If you take ranger max out survival and of corse continue in the hide sneaking searching skills. I recomend some riding, climb, jump, healing and knowledge nature.

Feats.
I recomend really investing in your archery if thats what you want. Point blank shot, precise shot, imp precise shot, rapid shot, shot on the run, dodge, mobility, weapon finess. The last one lets you use your dex instead of str for the to hit mod with light weapons. Thats short swords, hand hax, dagger, rapier and afew more. Abviosely you cant get all of them but any 5 should give you some good mobility and rangeded options.

recomended weapons and armor.
Compound longbow, hand axe, short sword, dagger, longsword. This is pritty standard and it works well. For armor I say get magical leather armor or an elven chain shirt. This will keep you mobile and any skill penalties would be -1 or 2 at worst. I also recomend getting a buckler. Its a small shield that you can strap on your arm and still use that hand to hold your bow. You can even have it enchanted.

The compound longbow is your friend. This weapon allows you to put in your strength bonus for damage. I recomend getting at least a +4 str compound longbow. You can eather make your starting strength a 14 for a +2 bones then get magical gauntlets or a belt to add to your strength.

Recomended magic items

Must have a handy haversack. Its better than a bag of holding. A cloak of elven kind is nice but I recomend making your own. I use a cloak with the shadow and silence effect on it. They give a +5 to hide and movie silently respectively. You can find how to make it in the DMG. Also get a ring of protection. The bones not only gives adds to your AC but your saves as well. Gauntlets of ogries strenth or a belt of hill giants strength would be nice. Ring of elimental protection, and mind shielding. Last find/create a weapon and armor that would fit.

Person_Man
2008-04-10, 09:02 AM
What do you think about ability placement? I know I should place Dex and Int pretty high, but beyond that I am open to suggestions.

It depends on if you want to focus on combat, being social, scouting, or being a toolbox.

A combat Rogue (high to-hit, hit points, damage, and Tumble) needs high Dex, Con, and Str.

A social Rogue (Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Disguise, Gather Information, Speak Language) needs high Cha (which also helps with UMD, a requirement for every Rogue).

A scout (Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Search, Listen) needs high Dex and Wis.

A toolbox Rogue (Disable Device, Open Lock, Forgery, Knowledge, Use Rope, Sleight of Hand) needs high Int because most toolbox Skills are very situational, so you need a ton of Skill points to cover all your bases.

You probably won't be able to have high scores in everything. So pick one or two roles to be good at that you will enjoy. Since you're new, I suggest combat + scout + UMD. This would make your stats something like Dex > Con > Str > Int > Wis > Cha. If you find a trap, use a low level Summons (UMD again) to set it off. If a door is locked, have someone else break it down (after listening to it to make sure no one is on the other side). You can still roleplay a lot without social Skills, you just can't convince NPCs to do anything. Leave that role to the party Paladin or Cleric, they're going to have a much high Cha anyway.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-10, 09:18 AM
I'm looking at making a rogue crossbow sniper using liberal application of fighter 2/rogue 4/dread commando 5... and the crossbow sniper, able sniper and woodland archer feats.

It's not working YET... but it will.