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Jastermereel
2008-04-09, 01:28 PM
How do you convince players that the fight they're facing is too big for them?

I've recently taken on the role of DM in my group while the normal DM focuses on his thesis for 2 months or so. The group is really oversized (8PCs: 2 druids, a wizard, a paladin, a cleric, a fighter, a rogue, and either a monk or another fighter depending on who's DMing) and thus past DMs have had to scale fights on the fly because it's hard to guess what a good challenge will be. More often than not, the opposition gets hit hard by a few lucky fighter shots and then bulldozed by the magic users.

In my temporary position, I want to shake things up a bit. Does anyone have advice on how to make it clear before the first blow that the best option for all involved is to run away and barricade the way whenever possible? If I throw something too big at them they might think it a reasonable challenge (especially after last week's unexpected slaughter of my "tougher" foes); in attacking, a lucky shot (or even an average shot) might be enough to fell a player, which, as I'm only temporarily in charge, I'd rather not do except to the real DM's temp player.

I realize this was a bit rambling, so, in short, what, shy of dropping a Trojan Rabbit on them, will make my players scream "Run Away!"?

Dr Bwaa
2008-04-09, 01:56 PM
Set it up beforehand. When the PCs find out about this evil dude, he is in the process of creating//completing/assembling/searching for some item/ritual/creature/spell that would make him utterly unstoppable. Whatever NPC has this information tells the PCs that they MUST FLEE if he completes (/whatever) this thing. When they meet him (or at whatever appropriate time when you want them to run), reveal that it is completed (or whatever). Hopefully they will flee =D however, I would say this requires at least two sessions to set up.

Simple way: Have someone roll WIS (or APPRAISE!). DC 10 tells them "this is gonna suck" and DC 15 tells them "you can't win this fight."

Alternately, make your baddie not immediately threatening, but through his control of the environment, he's crushing the PCs (not too fast), while they can't find anything that can affect him.
Example: maybe he's a wizard, hovering a fifty feet up or so in an Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere wrapped in a Globe of Invulnerability (or Prismatic Sphere) casting Summon Monsters and Acid Fog and Power Words and Fireballs and Insanity... you get my point =D

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-04-09, 02:19 PM
Depends on the enemy-but generally, a fairly impressive act that seemingly does not take the enemy much effort works. Examples follow:

1) Big Bad Blast:
Employ a 8th or 9th level AoE spell that damages the entire group, eating up a substantial portion of their HP. Firestorm, Meteor Swarm, Sunburst, Sunfire and the like work-if they take ~70 points of damage outright on the BBEG's first move which takes many of them to near-death they will be thinking of fleeing rather than fighting.

2) Take your Best Shot:
The BBEG is protected by abjurations/has DR+immunities or insane AC/saves and the like and laughs at them, inviting them to strike at it. The PCs do and after two rounds of doing their best to harm it realise their attacks have no effect. An illusion that makes minor harm to the BBEG not appear at all helps.

3) Force Grip:
The BBEG has a chained telekinesis effect always on (courtesy of Incantatrix auto-metamagic used with Persistent Spell) and uses it to Grapple all 8 of them and slam them to the wall with an act of concentration then proceeds to laugh at them for their weakness.

4) Begone Vermin:
Arcane Reach Twin Teleport. The BBEG sends them to the other side of the country at the bottom of a fairly deep lake. All of them. As a standard action. And then uses a Chained Sending to telepathically tell all of them that the next time they'll be sent at the closest volcano.

Solo
2008-04-09, 02:47 PM
How do you convince players that the fight they're facing is too big for them?

Kill them and raise them as zombies.



The characters, not the players, of course.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-09, 02:48 PM
With a Wiz, a Cleric and two druids you should have a lot of knowledge skills knocking about, using them is automatic and there are clear guidelines on how to identify monsters. Let the full BAB classes do something similar for famous NPCs that can kick tail.

Then simply tell them (pass a note to the smart/savy PCs player), the player gets to feel satisfied in their skill investment, you get to say with complete honesty that XYZ gribbly is utterly out of their league and it shouldn't take more than a death or three for them to start noticing that you mean it (with those numbers chances are that deaths aren't fatal:smallsmile: )

Person_Man
2008-04-09, 02:59 PM
I explain everything to them before we start playing.

I have a game world. The game world has races, empires, cities, towns, characters, regular events, plots, and random encounters. Some areas are relatively safe and easy to maneuver around. Other areas are intensely dangerous. The party is free to move about the world, meet people, follow (and perhaps try to change) events or plots, or just ignore my story lines and do what they want to do. But most encounters are not meticulously balanced against the party. If they come across an army of rampaging orcs, they better run away, hide, or come up with a really interesting plan. Otherwise they will be killed. Likewise, if they come across a bear in the woods, its probably a bear in the woods, and not a red dragon disguised as a bear in the woods. (Though I make no promises).

I put a very high premium on using the social and knowledge skills to gain more information, and tactical decision making. If they don't bother to talk to any of the terrorized local villagers or find out about the side quest to get the sword of drow bane and ring of poison immunity before they wander into the cave complex controlled by drow, that's fine. But then if the drow slaughter then, they have to accept TPK and restart.

It adds much more "realism" to the game and rewards roleplaying. But they need to know what type of DM I am before we play, not after they all die.

TheCountAlucard
2008-04-09, 03:16 PM
If the players tend to metagame, hit 'em with something they know they can't take on.

DM: As you walk along, you look up and see THE TARRASQUE!

P1: (goes pale)

DM: On its back is Chuck Norris.

Gamerlord
2008-04-09, 03:21 PM
If the players tend to metagame, hit 'em with something they know they can't take on.

DM: As you walk along, you look up and see THE TARRASQUE!

P1: (goes pale)

DM: On its back is Chuck Norris.
P2:*faints*

Dm:and he commands a army of teenage mutant ninga turtles!

JaxGaret
2008-04-09, 03:34 PM
Complete Adventurer, page 102. Use the Sense Motive skill to Assess Opponent.

Problem solved.

Pie Guy
2008-04-09, 03:52 PM
Kill them and raise them as zombies.



The characters, not the players, of course.

But if they are zombies then you can make them run away.

tarbrush
2008-04-09, 04:38 PM
Mindrape them. The only way to be sure.

FlyMolo
2008-04-09, 04:46 PM
I'm Dming a huge game too. (9 players. Used to be 10) Welcome to the fold, brother!

They utterly school CR appropriate encounters. I find that I just throw two of whatever CR is appropriate at them. Because they're basically two parties of four people each, and that's what the CR system is balanced against.

But as for your question, have them fight something challenging. 2 CR over their average level should be fine. Then have them run into the scary thing fighting the 2 CR thing. Utter schoolage should happen. Kind of like Neo right at the end of the first matrix movie, blocking things with one arm. Then it sees the PCs. If they're smart, they'll run away.

If you don't think they'll cotton on, try exposing them to something that'll turn most of them to stone or something, to get them used to the concept of "too strong"

ahriman
2008-04-09, 04:49 PM
Hmm, my preferred method is one of scaling:

First, create/choose an NPC/Monster/Creature that is a decent challenge for the party. They fight and kill him after a semi-rough fight.

Then, they fight two of them at once. This should be a significantly tougher fight, but the players should still be able to handle it.

Then, have them fight a whole group of them, and show that the Creature they were fighting are just the foot soldiers to the main guy. If they win that fight (and if they do, it should be by the skin of their teeth), good for them.

Next, a whole entire army of these bastards show up...The first guy? Foot soldiers. The "main guy"--lieutenants. They'll probably be leery of even getting near the higher ranked guys.

Of course, just to screw with them, occasionally have the "officers" be in charge not because of their level of killing ability, but due to their intelligence/charisma/being the nephew of someone/thing important and therefor relatively easily killed.

Also, make sure you give them goals that DON'T involve killing the bad guy. Rescuing someone, retrieving lost artifacts, convincing someone to switch sides, finding out their plans--basically, find ways that let the players "win" without HAVING to kill these guys.

its_all_ogre
2008-04-09, 04:57 PM
good luck!
generally they just don't do it. i give OTT warnings before players go into 'quests'
current quest: rescue an ancient stone chest which is locked and trapped with a fireball trap that resets itself instantly on being closed. closes if trap is set off too (!).
guarded by a dire lion undead creature which has necromantic spell casting abilities, also has life sense like a dread wraith.
backed up by a dozen or so wights, troll skeletons and some undead npcs.
i've warned them via npcs who have died with no trace, scouts using invisibility have died too.

i bet they'll charge in and screw it up though!!

Indon
2008-04-09, 04:57 PM
My players actually have a pretty strong sense of what they can face and what they can't. In my Exalted campaign, I've had the group (of mixed exalt types, including two solars at the time) disengage from a few Dragon-Blooded because they weren't confident in their ability to face individuals using skirmishing and guerilla tactics against their group. On the other hand, if they've freed and fortified a ruin, you can bet they'll be standing against an army (preferably with an army of their own).

nerulean
2008-04-09, 05:50 PM
Having just finished playing in a game where our primary tactic to run away from everything, I feel I am qualified to offer some insight into the mindset of running away.

1. We always knew that the things we ran away from were immensely powerful: they'd been set up that way both in and out of character. Everyone, for instance, knows that a red dragon the size of a castle is just a little too powerful for a group of roughly ECL12 characters to take on, and if they've been hearing stories IC of how it's slaughtered a crack team of the king's finest men (who the PCs have perhaps already encountered in a friendly match and been outclassed by), then they're going to be reluctant to stick around when Big Red gets her flame on.

2. We were never just running from, there was always an element of to involved, as well. Generally, what we were running to was the NPC who was handing out our missions, a person of immense power who was orchestrating the reclamation of power for the good guys in the world. Having met this character in two separate campaigns set several thousand years apart and been on both the right and wrong side of her, we know that around her we were more or less safe from whatever the DM might throw at her, since hurting her would hurt a fundamental truth of the world.

3. Most importantly, running away never meant that we'd lost the encounter. When we were sent into the dragon's lair to retrieve the cure to the deadly disease, slaying the dragon was never part of our mission objectives - we were supposed to get the cure and get out with our own sorry hides intact. Our cowardice was strictly necessary in order to save the world, as any delay or risk of TPK at the claws of a dragon would reduce our chances of getting the cure out in time.

We got so efficient at getting in, getting the thing and getting away that the DM began to despair. Clearly, we had found our callings as professional cowards.

Prometheus
2008-04-09, 05:59 PM
I had a monster who I failed to convey was much more powerful than their abilities. I tried to describe it as big and scary, and drew the map so they had lots of places to go that it couldn't reach them while they accomplished their objective. The cleric faithfully runs up to it, and I have to inform that he'd been Awesome Blow'd backwards and into negative hp. Needless to say, I got the flak for that one, even after warning them.

I say, if its not meant to be killed, don't let it be killed. If its not meant to kill, don't let it kill. Whatever it is, it shouldn't have actual stats (or at least not ones that can't be changed). Let it have attacks that seriously wound, knock unconscious, or almost completely disable any combatant it choses (roll like its real). Keep track of the damage its dealt, in case they get real foolhardy about attacking it, but continually describe their attacks as being only minimally effective. Once they seriously start getting hurt, they'll engage in strategic retreat.

Thrawn183
2008-04-09, 06:32 PM
I don't think its all that hard at all so long as you are very up front with the fact that you are willing to allow character death to occur and that you won't pull any punches. That will leave players actually paying attention to just how difficult an encounter is rather than trying to tally how much xp they are going to gain.

Generally speaking, people who roleplay sane characters will have them not be entirely suicidal.

Irreverent Fool
2008-04-09, 06:49 PM
If the players tend to metagame, hit 'em with something they know they can't take on.

DM: As you walk along, you look up and see THE TARRASQUE!

P1: (goes pale)

DM: On its back is Chuck Norris.

You got that backwards. It should go like this:

DM: As you walk along, you look up and see CHUCK NORRIS.

P1: (jaw drops, eyes wide)

DM: He is carrying the tarrasque.

hylian chozo
2008-04-09, 07:13 PM
Have them run into a fairly challenging monster that they barely survive. Then introduce an NPC fighting off and defeating a group of them easily (something with lots of HP, I suggest a Paladin). The NPC then joins them. Have your encounter kill that guy in one hit (preferably not a save-or-die effect).

TheCountAlucard
2008-04-09, 07:42 PM
You got that backwards. It should go like this:

DM: As you walk along, you look up and see CHUCK NORRIS.

P1: (jaw drops, eyes wide)

DM: He is carrying the tarrasque.

Thanks for that. You're right. :smallbiggrin:


Have them run into a fairly challenging monster that they barely survive. Then introduce an NPC fighting off and defeating a group of them easily (something with lots of HP, I suggest a Paladin). The NPC then joins them. Have your encounter kill that guy in one hit (preferably not a save-or-die effect).

Seems a bit cliched to me, but it might work...

JaxGaret
2008-04-09, 09:18 PM
Complete Adventurer, page 102. Use the Sense Motive skill to Assess Opponent.

Problem solved.

Did everyone miss this?

hylian chozo
2008-04-09, 09:29 PM
Did everyone miss this?

It's just not very interesting.

JaxGaret
2008-04-09, 09:31 PM
It's just not very interesting.

True, but the OP didn't ask for an "interesting" way to accomplish the task. :smallsmile:

TheCountAlucard
2008-04-09, 09:37 PM
Internet Rule 67: People will continue to have a long, drawn-out conversation regarding interesting ways to do something long after a practical suggestion has already been put forth.

Ascension
2008-04-10, 12:05 AM
"As soon as the last member of your party steps into the innocuous-looking cavern, a portal opens at each end. Another opens above your heads. The portal to your right vomits forth the endless hordes of the Abyss. To your left the demons of the Nine Hells march in perfect battle order. Yugoloths rain down from above. In case you didn't get the hint, now might be a good time to turn back around and run, guys."

Serpentine
2008-04-10, 02:20 AM
Aside from mechanical means (which are always useful, and can be employed in conjunction with roleplaying means), I've been given a fair bit of advice on this sort of matter that involves, basically, setting the mood. To use one loose example that just came to mind now: A crack team of the king's own men were sent into the Big Dark Forest to find The Thing What's Been Causing All The Trouble. A few hours later, one man returned, ragged, bleeding and completely mad. He died screaming about blood (if the party witnesses this, all the better). The party goes in to do their own investigation. There is not a sound to be heard, not a creature to be seen except the occasional fat crow eyeing you with great interest. You finally reach the beast's lair, a great black cave. A hand lies at the edge of the darkness. To your disgust, you discover that it is not actually attached to anything. In fact, it's the most intact remnant of the king's men you can see at a glance - the rest is smeared all over the walls, roof and floor. Further in, the gnawed bones of some great serpent lie scattered about. From up ahead, and coming closer, you hear a screeching bellow and the sound of shattering stone.

In case you're wondering, no, I don't know what the creature is. Anyway, rumours, environment, sound effects, and general atmosphere should be able to help a lot in getting across that this is meant to be a tough fight at best.

Our party had a RUNAWAY moment once, and that was with an encounter we actually probably could've taken on... (I think we were around level 10-12 and it was a CR12-14 creature). Basically, we were trudging through the hot, dry, sandy desert. Suddenly, the ground beneath our feet lurched. What we thought was a large sand dune turned out to be a great, hulking, many-eyed, many-armed, many-legged monstrosity. We tumbled down its sides, and fell at its many feet. The gnome cast Invisibility, the Rogue dived into the sand to Hide, and my half-orc Rogue/Catlord danced about for a bit, trying to find her friends, then gave up, clicked her heels together and Hasted off over the horizon.
That was a fun adventure :smallbiggrin:

Another one that has been suggested to me recently isn't quite, I think, the sort of thing you're thinking off, but I think it could still work. It depends slightly on whether you can get them to run or whether they try to fight, but either way should work alright. You send them up against the Massively Big Bad Guy, who trounces them solidly. If they stay and fight to the death (or at least the unconciousness), it knocks them all out (possibly somehow taking care not to take people below -10, but if you're not worried about death or if you can fix it easily enough don't worry about it too much). If they turn tail and flee, it hunts them down and picks them off one by one. Either way, they wake up trussed and injured and in its power. There, now they know it's too tough for them :smallwink:

Allis
2008-04-10, 04:44 AM
Complete Adventurer, page 102. Use the Sense Motive skill to Assess Opponent.

Problem solved.

They could get it terribly absolutely mind-blowing wrong. first of all,prompting your players to use it is about the same as handing them the NPC sheet. Second, IF they use it and have a really lousy roll, they get it wrong. They might think the red dragon is really an illusion and there is a dire puppy underneath. I'd rather have an ingame solution than a technial one. Describe the terrible beast to them, have NPC's come up with terrible details about lost encounters, and if nothing else helps, chew some of them to pieces. The loss of a cleric or two should get them going...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-10, 05:46 AM
Making (http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/darthsanddroids/episodes/0008.html) players (http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m126/stoopidtallkid/RPG%20motivational/Philosophy/opportunity.jpg) turn (http://www.geekconclave.net/rpg-Motivational/pcsdontsurrender.jpg) back.

Remember, it always takes about 3 times what you expect it to.

Bender
2008-04-10, 06:39 AM
Very clearly show the cover of your copy of "Elder Evils" when you take it out, open it and read the description of the foe.

more seriously: I think the players should be aware of the possibility. If they've never had to run away for an entire campaign, they're not going to run away now. A scary description, or tales of other parties being slaughtered might even encourage them to take on the heroic challenge.

The consequences don't necessarily have to be high, of course. Not every monster/NPC is interested in the PC's death. They might want to capture them, scare them, just take their stuff (which can be worse than death for some players), or come rampaging through without interest in the PC's at all, just dealing a few disabling blows and rampaging on. In the last case, the players will now what to do if they find the rampaging monster cornered.

In fact, if they have to survive the encounter with a superior foe, it's better for realism if the foe has a reason to let them survive. Or there has to be a quickly accessible escape route where he/she/it cannot follow.

Jastermereel
2008-04-10, 01:59 PM
Another one that has been suggested to me recently isn't quite, I think, the sort of thing you're thinking off, but I think it could still work. It depends slightly on whether you can get them to run or whether they try to fight, but either way should work alright. You send them up against the Massively Big Bad Guy, who trounces them solidly. If they stay and fight to the death (or at least the unconciousness), it knocks them all out (possibly somehow taking care not to take people below -10, but if you're not worried about death or if you can fix it easily enough don't worry about it too much). If they turn tail and flee, it hunts them down and picks them off one by one. Either way, they wake up trussed and injured and in its power. There, now they know it's too tough for them :smallwink:

Actually, that's rather what I'm thinking of. I don't have a lot of set-up time for it so I can't develop rumor systems or quest hooks. The plan is for it to be, more or less, down the hall. I don't have to worry too much about the "it takes their stuff" as at this point it's all mundane (the previous DMs have been very treasure stingy) and I already broke a bit of it last time with a Sunder-focused foe.

So far I'm thinking of having it be an advanced Flesh Golem, perhaps with bracers (or some such thing) that apply the Merciful trait to his attacks (justified on the premise that he's still in the necromancer's workshop rather than let loose upon the world). That, combined with a lot of theatrics should either do the trick or at least prove amusing.

The PCs enter the room and find a makeshift operating table of sorts with a semi-consious and less-than-semi-sane person strapped to it in the middle of the room and a few large opaque tanks around the walls. Eventually some PC action will cause damage to the tank (knock over a loose shelf of potions, notice the "I will not cast exploding runes in my lab" note on the wall) cracking it at the base letting loose a noxious liquid (think a mix of formaldehyde for the stench and dry ice for the effect) that quickly fogs up the room as they hear whatever was in the tank break free and use the body on the table to re-enact the "Where's the goat" moment from Jurassic Park.

With their style (and my short DMing stint) I won't have the time to be far more in depths. I just need a find a way to shake'em up a bit from their "the DM won't give us anything we can't handle" routine.

And having them get knocked out should be a good way to get to another area. Now...the PCs won't likely let that proceed so we'll see how it goes. Watch as one casts "dismiss atmosphere" and another attempts to sunder the bracers that would keep them alive.

Thanks for the suggestions! I'm going to have to pass more than a few along to the regular DM once his thesis is done.