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merfolkotpt
2008-04-09, 01:38 PM
Hello,
I have been a 2nd edition player for 8 or 9 years. I recently have found a new group who are interested in starting a campaign but they all play 3.5. I miss playing and am willing to give it a shot, and i already have read the core books, so I understand the new mechanics. The problem is I have noticed a tendency among 3.5ers to try to max out their characters, make them as ridiculously powerful as possible and that was never what made the game fun for me. I was wondering if people had suggestions for a class (i think starting level 5) that wouldn't be the least powered guy ever, but is more focused on being interesting and challenging to play then powerful. I almost always played rogues (thief or bard) or specialty priests / clerics when I played 2e, if that helps. Thanks.

Tombstone
2008-04-09, 01:49 PM
I find the new Monks to be very interesting. Theyre sort of a jack of all trades and tend to be the last guy standing when things go terribly wrong.
Theyre not the most ubber class, but are fun none the less.

Oeryn
2008-04-09, 01:55 PM
The problem is I have noticed a tendency among 3.5ers to try to max out their characters, make them as ridiculously powerful as possible and that was never what made the game fun for me.

I hate to be the one to say it, but you're probably gonna find that a lot, with the 3.x crowd. That's pretty much the way the game's headed, since 3rd Edition came out.

The good news is that you'll find a ton of folks here that can help you build a character who can keep up with your new group. Unfortunately, I'm not one of 'em.

DrizztFan24
2008-04-09, 02:03 PM
If you are looking for fun then play a monk, you won't hit much...and if you do you won't deal any damage...and your abilities are a little sub-par for CR appropriate encounters...but other than that they are a lot of fun.

Fenix_of_Doom
2008-04-09, 02:20 PM
I find the new Monks to be very interesting. Theyre sort of a jack of all trades and tend to be the last guy standing when things go terribly wrong.
Theyre not the most ubber class, but are fun none the less.


If you are looking for fun then play a monk, you won't hit much...and if you do you won't deal any damage...and your abilities are a little sub-par for CR appropriate encounters...but other than that they are a lot of fun.

Before I start, let's not allow this thread to become a monk sucks thread, K?

@OP
I personally wouldn't play monk, but both the rogue and bard are still fine if you like them, the ranger is another versatile option, all three are skill-users with good to decent combat abilities, the bard is probably the most powerful in the long run, but I've always had trouble with optimising a bard.
Now in order to get decent advise it would be helpful to know the books available.

TheThan
2008-04-09, 02:23 PM
Well you canít really go wrong with a rogue or a cleric, their both that good, particularly clerics.

Now lets talk about bards. Bards are awesome, but in a different way. Bards are very good at playing the 5th wheel. They donít really excel at anything (except diplomacy) but they take the weight off of the other classes. They can heal and buff allies like a cleric. They can skill monkey it up and even fight like rogues and fighters. However those other classes simply do it better. Even their unique abilities are designed to enhance your allies. In a party with a wizard, rogue, fighter and cleric, a bard makes a perfect 5th character.



As far as the over optimization, I have to agree with you there. Which is why I like rolling stats, it makes for much more organic feeling characters than with point buy.

It would also help if we knew which rulebooks you had access too. Since youíre new to the 3.5 scene Iím going to assume you just have access to the core rulebooks.

I suggest playing a bard, since clerics are a bit overpowered and easy to play. People will throw out the term ďCODzillaĒ which stands for Cleric Or Druid ďzillaĒ. Itís the ability for these two classes to easily be overpowered and outshine the other classes. Wizards can do this to, but itís much harder to do. Theyíre pretty much monsters, sometimes literally.

Mr. Friendly
2008-04-09, 02:25 PM
So you like being a priest?

So be a priest. Then you really don't need to optimize or go crazy. They are broken all by themselves.

What books are they using?

What world?

If Faerun, I suggest either Siamorphe (gotta be Lawful) or Gond (gotta be Neutral) or Helm and take Planning and Pride domains. Red Knight is good for Planning and War. Ubtao is good for Planning and Flavor.

If it is setting Neutral, get Planning and Undeath domains. Be human. Take Persistent Spell and Divine Meta Magic (Peristent Spell) as your feats.

If you get these feats Extend Spell (free with planning domain), Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic, you can cast your spells and if they have a duration, they last all day. The caveat is that in order to power them, you need to spend Turning attempts. You can take Extra Turning as a feat (1 free with Undeath) multiple times, each one gives you (4) more turning attempts per day. It costs you (6) Turning attempts to persist a spell. You get (3) + (CHA modifier) per day as a base, plus the (4) from ET gives you 7 +CHA base per day.

Now, you then use this to power.. well, pretty much whatever you want. As just a small example of what you can do, you could cast Bless on the entire party, that lasts all day.

What you can do with this ridiculously broken power, is up to you.

At levels beyond 1st, you can purchase "Nightsticks" found in, I believe, Cityscape. These disposable items are somewaht like mini-rods that contain Turn attempts that you can use to power your Persistent Spells.

The next item I would recommend is a Ring of Counterspells; after getting that, cast Dispel Magic "into" the ring and store it there. The next time someone casts Dispel Magic on you, to eliminate all your persisted spells, the ring will automatically counter it.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-09, 02:41 PM
You say you almost always played rogues or clerics... does that mean you're looking for a similar class in 3.5E? Or something completely different?

If you're looking for the same - a cleric is a very solid class, in that it can be very powerful, and it is kind of hard to make a cleric build that is not useful. Just put a good score in Wisdom and you're all set, if you pick the wrong spells you can simply get different spells tomorrow.

The rogue, while somewhat less powerful, is by no means weak and also easy to set up, but you have to make some choices about the skills you want. It is better to max out a few chosen skills, than to spread your points evenly about all of them (it's better to be good at three things than to be mediocre at a dozen). You should consider whether you want a combat rogue (put points in Str and Dex), a social rogue (put points in Int and Cha) or a sneaky rogue (put points in Dex and Int), or some combination thereof.

If you want something ridiculously powerful, play a wizard (who's got potential through the roof) or druid (who is pretty ridiculous right out of the box), or google up some information on optimizing a cleric (they can fight better than fighters, in 3.5E). If you want something easy to play, consider a warlock or ranger.

Since you're looking for something interesting and challenging to play, I'd recommend against the fighter (since they tend to have very little to do outside combat) and the monk (since without heavy optimization they are extremely weak).

Rad
2008-04-09, 02:44 PM
Hello,
I have been a 2nd edition player for 8 or 9 years. I recently have found a new group who are interested in starting a campaign but they all play 3.5. I miss playing and am willing to give it a shot, and i already have read the core books, so I understand the new mechanics. The problem is I have noticed a tendency among 3.5ers to try to max out their characters, make them as ridiculously powerful as possible and that was never what made the game fun for me. I was wondering if people had suggestions for a class (i think starting level 5) that wouldn't be the least powered guy ever, but is more focused on being interesting and challenging to play then powerful. I almost always played rogues (thief or bard) or specialty priests / clerics when I played 2e, if that helps. Thanks.

Fun? be a Warlock (Complete Arcane). You have a very small number of spell-like abilities that you can trow off at will. Not really powerful but fun.

merfolkotpt
2008-04-09, 03:53 PM
In answer to some questions as well as some clarifications.
I actually through friends have access to most of the books. I feel like I am going to shy away from casters initially just because I think it will be that much stuff that is just enough different to be irritating. The other character's in the group as far as I can tell are going to be a sorcerer, cleric, and some kind of tanky guy paladin or fighter. I have looked a little bit at the scout class but haven't even really thought about monk what makes it fun, I played a little bit of 1st edition and those monks were crazy at high level are they similar in 3.5.
The campaign setting is i think traditional fantasy (think FR), no psionics, and homebrewed in some respects.

Chronos
2008-04-09, 06:07 PM
I feel like I am going to shy away from casters initially just because I think it will be that much stuff that is just enough different to be irritating.As in, little differences would be more annoying than big differences? Because the mechanics for spells are actually fairly similar between 2nd and 3.x editions. They're a lot more powerful, but that's mostly due to subtle changes (how difficult it is to make saving throws, for instance, or the Concentration skill, which makes it harder to disrupt a spell being cast). The skill system, however, which is the rogue's bread and butter, is radically different between 2nd and 3rd.

Personally, if you liked thieves before, I'd recommend that you stick with a rogue (re-named thief) in 3rd edition. Although the mechanics are very different, the basic feel of the class is still the same, and the skill system is actually significantly more useful now. You can realistically get a skill up to a point where you literally can't fail at it, versus an opponent who didn't put significant effort into the opposed skill. For use of your skill points, I would personally recommend spending all but one of your skill points at each level (all but four, at first level) on skills you plan to max out, and use that last point to dabble a bit in other interesting skills (including things that you need a rank in to be able to attempt at all).

sonofzeal
2008-04-09, 07:51 PM
The single biggest advantage of 3.5 over 2nd Ed, IMO, is multiclassing. In 2nd Ed you were stuck with a small number of very narrow options, and you have to stay with the same thing for your whole carreer. In 3.5, every level is distinct and you can mix and match, grabbing low level powers from a variety of classes or focussing on one or two to get the higher level class powers. This insane flexibility allows you to make much more complex characters than before, and provides the tools to bring almost any character concept to life.

In 2nd ed, if you want to play a lvl 10 "Catwoman" character, you basically had to go straight Theif. In 3.5, you can make a Rogue 3 / Swashbuckler 7 with Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip (or Spiked Chain, or Rope Dart, depending on your mood), and the Daring Outlaw feat. If you want to play Conan the Barbarian, you can have Barbarian 5 / Fighter 2 / Wilderness Rogue 3. Superman could be Monk 20 with a Gem of Seeing made into a contact lense, a couple incarnum feats for heat vision, and any of a number of items that grant flight.

Point is, options abound so make use of them! Come up with some crazy concept, and then figure out how to bring it to life. Don't play 3.5 as if it was 2nd Ed with different rules, or you'll hate it - instead see it as its own thing with a totally different array of options.

JaxGaret
2008-04-09, 08:41 PM
I was wondering if people had suggestions for a class (i think starting level 5) that wouldn't be the least powered guy ever, but is more focused on being interesting and challenging to play then powerful. I almost always played rogues (thief or bard) or specialty priests / clerics when I played 2e, if that helps. Thanks.

You can play a Rogue, Bard, or Cleric. The Rogue and Bard are average or strong classes, and the Cleric is quite powerful.

If you want a class that combines the Cleric with a little bit of Bard, try the Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric). You get Cleric spellcasting, Bard skill points and a nice breadth of knowledge-based powers/abilities.

Matthew
2008-04-09, 09:01 PM
A lot depends on what books are available and how your new group plays D20 1e. I recommend discussing things with them and your new Game Master over soliciting advise from as diverse a forum as this one.

That said, you might get a kick out of playing 'part time' spell casters like the Spell Thief or Dusk Blade. Alternatively, if you fancy something really 'different', you might take a look at Tome of Battle.

FlyMolo
2008-04-09, 09:05 PM
The problem is I have noticed a tendency among 3.5ers to try to max out their characters, make them as ridiculously powerful as possible and that was never what made the game fun for me.

You hear about powergamers more because the players who play cool characters who aren't overpowered simply aren't talked about as much. Pun-Pun is all over the web, but Glagnar the warblade, who eats fried human skin pretzels, is not. And so on.

Also, some people try to keep up with the wizards in optimization contests. Unpossible, by the way.

JaxGaret
2008-04-09, 09:15 PM
Also, some people try to keep up with the wizards in optimization contests. Unpossible, by the way.

By "the wizards", do you mean the Big Five?

The other four can keep up with the Wizard just fine. Well, the Cleric not so much by a hair's breadth unless you get super cheesy with Nightsticks, but the other three are right there.

sonofzeal
2008-04-09, 09:24 PM
You hear about powergamers more because the players who play cool characters who aren't overpowered simply aren't talked about as much. Pun-Pun is all over the web, but Glagnar the warblade, who eats fried human skin pretzels, is not. And so on.

Also, some people try to keep up with the wizards in optimization contests. Unpossible, by the way.

Well, to be fair it's much easier to optimize in 3.5. In 2nd Ed you've more or less just got to pray for that 18/00 strength, and there's not really all that many options beyond that. In 3.5 you've got way more control over how your character advances and there's far more options at your disposal. This allows you to make really cool character concepts a reality... but it also allows for much more powergaming. The more options, the more you can optimize. And 3.5 is positively swimming in options for just about everything.

Chronos
2008-04-09, 10:20 PM
Eh, there have always been powergamers. The fellow I first started playing D&D with, back in 2nd edition, had a chararcter who was a 120th level wizard/212th level thief. At around 10th level, he made a magic item of Fireball at will, planeshifted to a world entirely populated by hobgoblin mooks, wrote a computer program to simulate the fights without his intervention, and let it run for a few days. I don't even know where he got the XP tables for 21+. Another guy in the same group had a couple of Wands of Wishing: Whenever one got down to a single charge left, he'd use a single casting from the other to fully recharge it.

The rules for 2nd edition didn't explicitly allow most of the powergaming methods, but then, that's because the rules of 2nd edition didn't cover a lot of things. Powergaming in 2nd edition was done by DM fiat, same as everything else. Powergaming in 3rd edition is done by applying the voluminous rules, same as everything else.

AslanCross
2008-04-10, 05:48 AM
If you're going to go by way of the cleric, I'd suggest you get the Travel domain (Fharlanghn). If you're playing Forgotten Realms, Kelemvor for Fate and Travel. (Or Repose if you want.)

As has been mentioned, clerics have no problems with power. They can melee as well as Fighters---and even better---simply by using spells found in core. (Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might). They can get really horrifying if you use the Divine Metamagic cheese, but let's not go there.

The rogue's pretty good. It's been said to have been among the most balanced classes in the game. It also occupies a lot more party roles now. I remember the 2E thief to be mostly concerned with thievery and backstabbing. The rogue can do much more now: social skills, stealth, scouting, as well as the good old thievery and backstabbing. (Invest in Use Magic Device. That'll help you keep up with the Wizards.)

If you're willing to try non-core, there's the Beguiler and the Duskblade from PHB2. The Beguiler is something like a sneak-casting sorcerer who specializes in enchantment and illusion spells, while the duskblade is a good melee caster. Not as versatile as wizards, but they sure pack a punch.