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Frosty
2008-04-09, 01:51 PM
I'm trying to decide what would be more fun with a bard. I know I don't want to go the route of the ultiamte party buffer, although I wouldn't if I could buff/inspire well as a side effect of the build.

Which kind would you prefer, and what builds would you use for your choice?

1) Bard gish

2) Bard caster purely focused on arcane casting

3) Bard caster advancing both divine and arcane casting.

4) Bard who steals spells from others via dipping in Spellthief

I'm thinking Viruoso, Sacred Fist, Ur Priest, Mystic Theurge, Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, and Abjurant champion will show up in a lot of these builds.

nerulean
2008-04-09, 04:36 PM
I'd say the thing I enjoy most about playing bardic builds is the role as party face. :smallwink: But onto a more productive answer...

I had an unholy amount of fun playing an arcane caster bard who was the ultimate debuffer. I was running off a homebrewed template for a half-nymph that essentially meant she added Cha or half Cha to just about everything defensive, and she never, ever attacked anything, so I pushed her saves up into the stratosphere, and made hardened pirates fall at her feet with diplomacy checks to boot.

Bard gish is workable but wouldn't be my first choice. You play a reasonable combatant who is always going to be inferior to the other combatants around you, because every bonus you have to bring you up to par is making them better too.

I'd love to play a bard/druid someday, some sort of green whisperer/fochlucan lyrist build, but they're pretty suboptimal. There are some funky things to play about with it listed on this thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=377248). No idea about the spellthief.

Frosty
2008-04-09, 05:35 PM
Well a bard that never attacks might do well with a Vow of non-violence to boost spell DCs...

Anyhow, I had heard that the feat Master Spellthief is good in a Sublime Chord build or something, but I can't figure out why.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-09, 05:56 PM
I'm trying to decide what would be more fun with a bard. I know I don't want to go the route of the ultiamte party buffer, although I wouldn't if I could buff/inspire well as a side effect of the build.

Which kind would you prefer, and what builds would you use for your choice?

1) Bard gish

2) Bard caster purely focused on arcane casting

3) Bard caster advancing both divine and arcane casting.

4) Bard who steals spells from others via dipping in Spellthief

I'm thinking Viruoso, Sacred Fist, Ur Priest, Mystic Theurge, Spellsword, Eldritch Knight, and Abjurant champion will show up in a lot of these builds.

If you want to go all-out for raw magical power....

UA variant: Savage Bard - five levels, then start take Ur-Priest for two (for second level spells); and follow it with three levels of Mystic Theurge (casting: Bard-8, Ur-Priest-5); add on a single level of Sublime Chord (Casting: Bard-8, Ur-Priest-5, Sublime Chord-1), then take five more levels of Mystic Theurge (advancing Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest spells). Your last four levels go to some full arcane advancing PrC of your choice - Abjurant Champion will do well, as will the Virtuoso PrC. You can also just continue in Sublime Chord - it's got reasonable class features. One level in Mindbender can be handy - especially if you get that one nifty feat from Lords of Madness that gives you Mindsense in your Telepathy range. Avoid Archmage - you don't have spell slots to burn.

9th level Divine spells at 15th or 16th (depending on Wisdom); 9th level Arcane spells at 19th.

When you're done, you cast as:
Savage Bard-8
Ur-Priest-10
Sublime Chord-10

Pick your Sublime Chord spells right, and you can pretend you have domains when impersonating a Cleric. It'll throw people that know how the Ur-Priest works off the track when they see you casting spells that match the domains of the god you're faking following, that aren't available on the Cleric list.

Edit:
Oh, yeah - taking those last four levels in Mage of the Arcane Order can be sweet - gives you Spellpool II, which allows you to call any PHB Sor/Wiz spell of 6th level or lower. Also, under Magic-Psionics transparency, Limited Wish can duplicate Psychic Reformation, and under Magic-Psionics transparency, Psychic Reformation can be used to change spells known. The 300 xp cost of Limited Wish lets you change your last six levels worth of skill, spell, and feat selections - which will be your top three tiers of arcane spells. If you think you might go Epic, make sure to max out Knoweledge(Arcana), Knoweledge(Nature), Knoweledge(Religion), and Spellcraft - that'll give you four or six Epic spell slots at 21st when you take Epic Spellcasting.

Frosty
2008-04-09, 06:06 PM
Oooh...can you copy and paste the basics of the Savage Bard here? It is crucial for this build?

Talya
2008-04-09, 06:06 PM
Look below at my sig.

You can skip the nudity if you'd like. It is, however, one of the few cases I've seen where vow of poverty is really good. Use flaws and lesser Aasimar for real fun. Your spell DCs end up being 28 + spell level (+3 more if enchantments).

Jack_Simth
2008-04-09, 06:09 PM
Oooh...can you copy and paste the basics of the Savage Bard here? It is crucial for this build?

I can link you to it - it's a UA Class Variant (http://www.rpgoracle.com/srd/unearthedCoreClass.html#savage-bard); the important part of which being that it has a good Fort save (required for entry into Ur-Priest that early - otherwise, you'd slow the progression by one level taking a single level of Mindbender - which also has a good Fort save).

Edit:
Huh - Savage Bard requires you be Chaotic; Ur-Priest requires you be evil.... oh well.

Frosty
2008-04-09, 07:27 PM
What about going from a sorcerer or wizard into prestige bard? Or would it not be good because of the fort save requirement? No...the perform requirement is too high anyways. Darn.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-09, 07:59 PM
What about going from a sorcerer or wizard into prestige bard? Or would it not be good because of the fort save requirement? No...the perform requirement is too high anyways. Darn.

The Sublime Chord PrC you list is designed to be taken after 10th level (skill requirements force it - 13 ranks in Knoweledge(Arcana) and Listen). The big question is what to do with the 10 levels before that. Mixing Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge is just to cheese it up as a Primary Caster (and to continue the gouda after).

If you wanted, you could go a completely different route - a Paladin-2/Bard-4/Abjurant Champion-4/Sublime Chord-2/Eldritch Theurge-8 wouldn't be a bad gish - 9th level spells at 20th level, BAB of +18, can cast in light armor without worrying about arcane spell failure.

Sublime Chord, however, pretty much screams "bard". You could pull it off with a Sorcerer/Rogue, mind you, but the easiest builds will all say "Bard" in there somewhere.

cupkeyk
2008-04-09, 08:11 PM
I have been planning to make a bard 7/druid 1/divine oracle 2/sublime chord 1/ Fochlucan lyrist 9. Minimal caster level loss on your choice of either bard. All levels of the sublime chord spell progression. Boost bard levels for divine oracle and get a version of evasion that works in any armor too.

JaxGaret
2008-04-09, 08:24 PM
I'm trying to decide what would be more fun with a bard. I know I don't want to go the route of the ultiamte party buffer, although I wouldn't if I could buff/inspire well as a side effect of the build.

That's too bad, because Bard/War Weaver/Sublime Chords are the sickest buffers in all of 3.5e.

nerulean
2008-04-09, 08:47 PM
That's too bad, because Bard/War Weaver/Sublime Chords are the sickest buffers in all of 3.5e.

They are indeed pretty funky. And the best thing is, you can generally drop all your buffs in the first round of combat to last for the whole thing, at which point you can get on with doing something more satisfying. War Weaver is fun like that.

Kai-Palin
2008-04-09, 09:02 PM
I'm sorry to be shamelessly self-promoting, but I believe you might like the Harmonic Magus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71154) PrC, if you are looking to make a primarily spell-focused bard. You gain nearly uninterrupted Bard casting and advance in another arcane class as well. I've played one through a campaign, and he was an excellent party buffer. He also occasionally would break out the sonic evocations and kill everything in sight.

To take the class at the earliest level possible, you have a Bard 2/Wizard 3 with Melodic Casting and Extra Music, and then after that you can specialize however you want, although the class works best with buffing-related spells.

Darrin
2008-04-09, 09:03 PM
9th level Divine spells at 15th or 16th (depending on Wisdom); 9th level Arcane spells at 19th.


For 9th level arcane and 9th level druid spells you could also do:

Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer 2/Arcane Hierophant 3/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant +7/Green Whisperer +2

Green Whisperer is from Dragon #311, similar to Arcane Hierophant or Mystic Theurge, easy entry and it advances both bard and druid spellcasting.

And on top of that... 13 levels of Wildshape.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-09, 09:30 PM
For 9th level arcane and 9th level druid spells you could also do:

Bard 2/Druid 3/Green Whisperer 2/Arcane Hierophant 3/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Hierophant +7/Green Whisperer +2

Green Whisperer is from Dragon #311, similar to Arcane Hierophant or Mystic Theurge, easy entry and it advances both bard and druid spellcasting.

And on top of that... 13 levels of Wildshape.
Yes, but you get your 1st 9th level spell slot (arcane) at 19th, and you don't get 9th level Divine spells until 20th. On the plus side, you don't have to be Chaotic Evil...

It does, however, greatly depend on what level he's starting at.

Frosty
2008-04-09, 11:01 PM
Assume the game starts at 10th level. Hmm,,, Dragon magazine eh? I never have any access to those so that's out.

Nermy
2008-04-10, 01:05 AM
For the martial variant you can do:

Bard 4 / Crusader 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 4 / Jade Phoenix Mage 10

This way you get 19 BAB, cast as a 17th level bard, and are a 15th level initiator.

I guess that's not much of a Bard though. You could always do it Bard 8 / Crusader 1 / Spellsword or Abjurant Champion 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 10 for more bardic music.

Also, if Sublime Chord is a must you can go Bard 4 / Crusader 1 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 3 / Jade Phoenix Mage 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Jade Phoenix Mage 9, although your DM might not allow you to let Jade Phoenix Mage add with Sublime Chord since you take it before. Shouldn't be too hard to sweet talk though.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-10, 06:20 AM
Assume the game starts at 10th level.
Which means you want something playable at 10th level - which suggests either an Ur-Theurge (mine, above), a Gish build, or a skillmonkey build.

Skillmonkey (non-trap):
Bard-7/Virtuoso-3/Sublime Chord-2/Virtuoso+7/Other Arcane Advancing PrC-1

Casts as:
Bard-9
Sublime Chord-10 (caster level 17, boostable with Song of Arcane Power)
Bardic Music Access as: Bard-7, Virtuoso-10
Bardic Uses per day as: Bard-20
Skills: All but two levels are 6+Int Mod

Thufir
2008-04-10, 06:52 AM
a Paladin-2/Bard-4/Abjurant Champion-4/Sublime Chord-2/Eldritch Theurge-8
?
I think you have the wrong theurge, eldritch requires an invocation using class, which you have not included in that build.

TheDarkOne
2008-04-10, 09:56 AM
?
I think you have the wrong theurge, eldritch requires an invocation using class, which you have not included in that build.

Actually, I think he has the wrong Eldritch. Should be Eldritch Knight, given that he thinks the final product will have BAB 18 and 9th level spells.

Torebo
2008-04-10, 11:05 AM
I've got a similar question but with less requirements:

I'm playing a bard who will soon become a sublime chord. To date, his feats include Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse (for tripping with his whip), Improved Diversion (or whatever the +4 to hide Bluff check thing is called), and Lyric Spell.

I'm just about to hit level 9, so I figure I'll take Extra Music as I've been chewing through bardic music uses like they're going out of style.

What other feats are good for this kind of character?
Also, can anyone make recommendations for spells from the Sublime Chord levels?

My magic choices have all centered around silly bard fluff, defense, or the ability to get myself out of trouble and stay alive (blink, gaseous form, glitterdust, sleep spells, etc).

He's taken a bit of a dislike to big hefty magic users trying to take over the world, so stuff that's anti-spellcaster works really well for flavour too. Also, there's a slot in level 6 earmarked for Disintegrate for when you just have to Make A Point and not take "no" for an answer.

So yeah...feat/spell suggestions? [Preferably Core/close to core, to avoid me having to lug more books to the table to prove I can do whatever cool/broken thing it is the spell lets me do.]

aielman
2008-04-10, 11:45 AM
Subsonics - Sing so soft they can't hear you

Ambient Song - Disguise the song in the ambient sounds

Melodic Casting - allows you to cast spells while singing - also allows you to use your Perform check instead of concentration - HUGE for singing bard

Shout - Shout the entire song as a free action (I think..)

Independent performance - do two songs at once.

Leadership - Gives you more grunts to maximize with your music


Check out Quintessential bard 2 if you plan on being a song bard, specifically the section on Power Peformance's

Keld Denar
2008-04-10, 12:11 PM
I like Bard9/Mindbender1 as a leadin to SC, taking MB as soon as possible to qualify. This gets you Telepathy which serves 2 fold purposes. First, you can now SING in your allies heads, eliminating the whole neon red sign saying "the adventurers are here!" and allows you to qualify for the feat Mindsight, from LoMadness I think. Mindsight is amazing. Especially if you have Glitterdust as one of your known spells, you will almost never have to worry about being snuck up on by invisible opponents.

I also like Melodic Casting and Song of the Heart. Melodic Casting + SC levels means you can lay down some bountiful BC spells while buffing your allies to take full advantage of your disadvantaged opponents.

Also, JACK up your Cha and get a +1 Sudden Stunning(DMGII) rapier or other small slashing weapon. Cast Whirling Blade(SpC) to make melee attacks with it out to a range of 60'. Spend your swift action to force one target hit by the blade to make a DC 10 + cha + 1/2 char level REFLEX save or be stunned for 1d4+1 rounds. Its Stun Ray (SpC) as a 2nd level spell. You can do this trick until you run out of 2nd level spells or a number of times equal to your Cha modifier. This is a trick that scales with level and the stunned condition is the ultimate debuff. Stunned creatures are all but helpless, drop what they are carrying, and are denied their dex. Send in the rogues. The DC on this will generally be just a bit higher than your highest level spell, baring taking feats like Spell Focus.

All in all, a solid and contributing party member. Disables, buffs, utility, and fun. What more can you ask of your bard?

Draz74
2008-04-10, 12:31 PM
I'd keep it simple and just go for total arcane dominance.

Human Bard 10/Sublime Chord 5/Mindbender 1/Fatespinner 4

Feats:
1) Melodic Casting, Extra Music
3) Extend Spell
6) Persistent Spell
9) Metamagic Song
12) Rapid Metamagic
15) Quicken Spell
18) Sculpt Spell

Frosty
2008-04-10, 01:06 PM
I like Bard9/Mindbender1 as a leadin to SC, taking MB as soon as possible to qualify. This gets you Telepathy which serves 2 fold purposes. First, you can now SING in your allies heads, eliminating the whole neon red sign saying "the adventurers are here!" and allows you to qualify for the feat Mindsight, from LoMadness I think. Mindsight is amazing. Especially if you have Glitterdust as one of your known spells, you will almost never have to worry about being snuck up on by invisible opponents.

I also like Melodic Casting and Song of the Heart. Melodic Casting + SC levels means you can lay down some bountiful BC spells while buffing your allies to take full advantage of your disadvantaged opponents.

Also, JACK up your Cha and get a +1 Sudden Stunning(DMGII) rapier or other small slashing weapon. Cast Whirling Blade(SpC) to make melee attacks with it out to a range of 60'. Spend your swift action to force one target hit by the blade to make a DC 10 + cha + 1/2 char level REFLEX save or be stunned for 1d4+1 rounds. Its Stun Ray (SpC) as a 2nd level spell. You can do this trick until you run out of 2nd level spells or a number of times equal to your Cha modifier. This is a trick that scales with level and the stunned condition is the ultimate debuff. Stunned creatures are all but helpless, drop what they are carrying, and are denied their dex. Send in the rogues. The DC on this will generally be just a bit higher than your highest level spell, baring taking feats like Spell Focus.

All in all, a solid and contributing party member. Disables, buffs, utility, and fun. What more can you ask of your bard?


This intrigues me a lot. I know what Whirling Blade does, but not any of the other things. Can you explain to me how the whole thing works together to be a stunning ray effect? Also, what's Song of the Heart?

Keld Denar
2008-04-10, 02:59 PM
This intrigues me a lot. I know what Whirling Blade does, but not any of the other things. Can you explain to me how the whole thing works together to be a stunning ray effect? Also, what's Song of the Heart?

Sudden Stunning is an enhancement from DMGII that adds to a magic weapon for a flat +2k gold addon. It allows you to +cha times per day spend a swift action to force a foe struck in melee with the weapon to make a REFLEX save with a DC equal to 10 +1/2 char level + cha mod. That means the DC is about on par with your highest level spells, which is really good AND scales with level.

Now, Whirling Blade allows you to make MELEE attacks with a weapon out to a max range of 60' in a line shaped area of effect. AFTER you hit one of the foes who falls in the range, you can spend a swift action to activate Sudden Stunning to force that foe to make a reflex save with the above mentioned DC or be totally screwed.

On top of that, you can add some nice Inspire Courage damage to your weapon, especially if you snag Dragonfire Inpiration, or use a 2hander and PA on your Whirling Blade.

Frosty
2008-04-10, 03:02 PM
So it's a Stun Ray that requires a regular attack instead of a Touch attack, but it's only 2nd level spell, and you need to spend your swift action? Interesting...

Where is Dragonfire Inspiration from btw?

Keld Denar
2008-04-10, 03:18 PM
Dragonfire Inspiration is from either Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon, although I'm pretty sure its from the former IIRC.

Yea, it requires a normal attack instead of a ranged touch, and it gets a save, so its not quite as good as Stun Ray, but its still really good, a low level trick (usable at what, level 4 if you sink almost all of your WBL into your 4k gold weapon. It also scales well with level. By level 20, your DC is going to be 20 +cha mod, which would be around a 30 if you have a 30 Cha, which isn't that hard to reach by level 20. If you are worried about missing, Snowflake Wardance adds your +cha to hit, and Slippers of Battledancing add +cha to hit AND damage giving you really great chances to hit with WB, considering you are adding 3x your +cha modifier to hit from WB, SWD, and SoBD.