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Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-09, 11:00 PM
Edit: The Catch ability.

Take:
1 part: thread about a pokemon themed character
1 part: group wanting to play a silly lvl 6+ evil game
mix under the influence of strong drink and...

I'm currently homebrewing a campaign, and class, to amuse my players with a game that spoofs pokemon. The point of this thread is to give me a place to post my progress AND to get input from the playground community at large. I don't have much that is PEACHworthy at the moment though. I got a bit pre-occupied with writing the introduction to the setting, the nature of the mysterious Giovanni, and the infamous "Pocket Team" lead by the (animated) bike riding Jesse James. The bit of history about Jesse's companion: Meowth (the Commoner mass murderer) is still in the concept stage.


PEACHable stuff:
Catch:
Casting Time: Instant Action
Range: Close (25 feet + 5 feet/2 class levels)
Area or Target: One creature.
Duration: 3 rounds, permanent.
Saving Throw: Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 class level + Cha)
Spell Resistance: No.
Effect: Roll a d20. If the result equals (or is lower than) your class level, target creature rolls a Will save. If the creature fails the save and is dropped to lower than 1 hit point (or killed) within 3 rounds, they are (instead) transported to a pocket plane within your Index Crystal. Creatures transported in this way are permanently bound to your direct control until they are “Released”. While within an anti-magic field, you are denied all access to creatures within the Crystal. You may use Catch a number of times per day equal to your class level plus your Cha mod.


This SLA is a rough draft of two possible first level abilities of the homebrew Master class. Any advice, input, and suggestions as a whole would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. :smalltongue:

Collin152
2008-04-09, 11:38 PM
Looks like.. "fun".

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-09, 11:48 PM
I know it's silly, but the group is eating up the concept. As a DM, it IS my job to cater to them right? :smallbiggrin:

Oh who am I kidding? I'm doing it because it's silly and brings back fond memories from my childhood.

Collin152
2008-04-09, 11:51 PM
So, is this ment to interact with existing monsters?
That could get broken very quickly.

Norr
2008-04-10, 05:21 AM
So, is this ment to interact with existing monsters?
That could get broken very quickly.

I agree and disagree with you. Your chance of success is less than 5% at level 1 due to the level check required. Add to that a will save that's harder than usual (10+lvl+cha rather than 10+˝lvl+cha) meaning that creatures will often fail their save against it. The whole thing hinges on making the level check and then killing/incapacitating the enemy. At higher levels the lvl check becomes easier and easier, hitting maximum 100% success rate at level 20.

I would suggest the level check should beat your level +5 (for making the check possible at lower levels) and making the save 10+˝lvl+cha (so that the creatures have a shot at making their save).
This means you have a 30% chance at making the lvl check at lvl 1 and the enemy have a ~50% shot at making its save, making for an overall 15% chance of success at level 1. At level 10, the chance of success would be 25%, at level 15 the chance would normalize at 50% and stay that way.

However, to prevent this thing from being cast over and over again I would suggest one of the following changes: The ability can only affect a creature once per encounter or per day (if they make their save they're in the clear... for now...), you meed a costly material component (pokéball), or the ability can only be used X times per encounter or day.

Also, do you have access to every single monster you ever caught at any given time? That could get broken. I would suggest only having access to a set number of monsters at any given time á la Pokémon. You could change your selection at an eldritch machine :smallbiggrin:

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-10, 01:42 PM
I agree and disagree with you. Your chance of success is less than 5% at level 1 due to the level check required. Add to that a will save that's harder than usual (10+lvl+cha rather than 10+˝lvl+cha) meaning that creatures will often fail their save against it. The whole thing hinges on making the level check and then killing/incapacitating the enemy. At higher levels the lvl check becomes easier and easier, hitting maximum 100% success rate at level 20.

I would suggest the level check should beat your level +5 (for making the check possible at lower levels) and making the save 10+˝lvl+cha (so that the creatures have a shot at making their save).
This means you have a 30% chance at making the lvl check at lvl 1 and the enemy have a ~50% shot at making its save, making for an overall 15% chance of success at level 1. At level 10, the chance of success would be 25%, at level 15 the chance would normalize at 50% and stay that way.

However, to prevent this thing from being cast over and over again I would suggest one of the following changes: The ability can only affect a creature once per encounter or per day (if they make their save they're in the clear... for now...), you meed a costly material component (pokéball), or the ability can only be used X times per encounter or day.

Also, do you have access to every single monster you ever caught at any given time? That could get broken. I would suggest only having access to a set number of monsters at any given time á la Pokémon. You could change your selection at an eldritch machine :smallbiggrin:

1. So the first roll has to be less than, or equal to, your class level +5? I like that, I had be tring to think of a way to make it a little better than impossible to catch things at level 1. As for the Will save, it was supposed to be tough to beat, but I can see the balance issue. So DC = 10 + 1/2 class + Cha sounds like a fair swap for the higher chance of activation.

2. As for the spamming issue, I was thinking about tacking on the limitation of only being able to use this ability a number of times per encounter equal to your class level in addition to the high save. What kept me from adding it in, is the idea that this is a standard action, meaning you aren't really doing anything at all to the target for the round in which you use the ability anyway. Am I looking at it the wrong way? Would the high save be reasonable if such a limiter was in place?

3. For the first two levels, you only have access to your first "captured" creature, who becomes your Companion. It can have a CR no higher than your class level, and works like a cross betweeen a familiar and an animal companion, only without the ugly parts of both features. You can prepare a number of caught creatures to your "belt" at the beginning of each day equal to 1/3 your class level (rounded down). The given limit on power comes form the nature of one's control over creatures called from your "belt". You share actions. Thus, you both can make a move action, or it can take a standard while you make a move action, vice-versa, or one of you does nothing in the round while the other does a full-round worth of activities. I'd have the rough draft of the class posted, but the wording needs to be cleaned up in a bad way. :smallredface:

Edit: Thanks for the insight Norr. I really appreciate the unbiased perspective.

Collin152
2008-04-11, 06:16 PM
You know, more it gets discussed, more I like it.

But, my quesiton remains unanswered: Is this meant to mesh with all existing monsters? Things can get broken when PCs command some creatures.
Take the Efreet for instance. It can grant three wishes daily to any humanoid. If it's under your command...

Norr
2008-04-12, 11:32 AM
I also remembered something recently. The duration of the 'catch-power' is =character level, meaning that you have more and more time to kill your catch as you advance. In the pokemon game, when you throw a ball to catch your enemy, it wiggles three times before coming to rest, during which time the pokemon can brake out and attack or flee (hate it when that happens).
So depending on how close you want your game mechanics to be to the handheld game, you could do one of the following (from one extreme to the other):
*Have the power be instantaneous and give the enemy a bonus/penalty to its will save based on ts remaining hp.
*Have the power last only one round, during which you must kill the creature (when using this option the power wouldn't take effect until the beginning of your next turn)
*Have the power last 3 rounds, to create a paralell between your game mechanic and the handheld game mechanic
*Have the duration of the power be a function of your level, but reduced (1round/4, 3 or 2 levels)
*Or keep the duration of 1round/level and ignore this post.
This is just an idea I had, so I thought I would post it.

As usual, my sig applies to this post. :smallwink:

pup3k
2008-04-12, 11:56 AM
you meed a costly material component (pokéball)

Better yet, have the base material component be inexpensive, but only work on creatures of up to X HD, say 5, or alternatively cap the Will save at a certain point, because no base Pokéball is going to be to catch Mewtwo, or say a Balor. Then have more expensive Material components (Super, Great, and Ultra respectively) that either up the cap or provide a bonus to the Save DC (or both), with ultra having no cap and/or say a +15(?) bonus on the DC.

Then have a Minor Artifact (Masterball) that is an auto-catch. It has to be minor because there are clearly more than one (one in each game in fact) but are very rare.

EDIT

Or better yet, have them all be woundrous items, with the regular Pokéball having the lowest possible CL requirement, and the others with higher CL requirements, but better effects. This makes the jump from Wondrous item to Minor Artifact much more plausible than a jump from mundane item with circumstance bonus to DC to Minor Artifact.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-12, 02:54 PM
Collin: Yes, it's meant to work with existing monsters. However, since it's still in the drafting phase of class creation, problems like wish abuse don't have a set in stone solution as of yet. Although, one idea is to simply have a list of creatures for a DM to seriously consider avoiding the use of. In regards to wish, a possible balance is that some (if not all) of the effects of wishes cease (in a manner of DM discretion) the moment the creature is returned to your Index. There are a lot of kinks to iron out for this to work. :smallbiggrin:


Norr: I like the idea of making it instant AND a three round timer, it gives much better odds of capture to lower level "Masters". I'm also thinking that the times per day issue should be class level + Cha.

In addition, I wonder if perhaps something to the tune of this formula would do the trick: If a creature's x ([hit die type + Con] divided by 2) times y (it's number of hit die) is less than or equal to it's current hp, they suffer z penalty.


pup3k: The original idea was to make the class item dependant (in regards to pokeballs). However, as I got to thinking about how much I dislike the importance of magic items in general, a fluff based way out formed itself in my mind. The powers stem from you, much like a sorceror's. All "Masters" are, in some way (distant or recent), connected to Giovanni's experients. How does this fix everything? Giovanni secretly is an insane Elder Brain god/demigod who's primary objective is to see the prime material plane inhabited by as diverse a populous of sentient creatures as possible. Why? Creatures (a.k.a. flavors) that have not been Released from your Index before you pass on, become Giovanni's next meal. This whole thing ties into a Master's other defining ability concept: the ability to advance, and/or add templates to, creatures within their Index. The extent, and limits, of this ability are still getting fleshed out. I like the idea a LOT though. Think along the lines of taking housecats, and "evolving" them different ways until you find combinations that scare CRxx foes. Something like how Eevee can become half a dozen different things should be crossing your mind about now.

P.S. Edited Catch some, still debating the hit point penalty and how to manage it.

mikeejimbo
2008-04-12, 04:59 PM
Giovanni eats these creatures? So THAT explains why he wanted to catch so many rare pokemon...exotic meals!

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-12, 05:28 PM
Isn't it a great way to blend the crunch and the fluff or a game that is both silly and gritty? As as side note, the only interaction the players ever get with "Giovanni" will be through the creature chosen to be born as the host body. The host will be a normal version of it's kind, complete with free will, until it manifests it's latent Master abilities. When that occurs, the creature gains all of the powers that Giovanni had as a mortal, at the cost of being completely subject to the Deity's will. This "Giovanni" has a horrifying set of monsters at it's call. I'm thinking Tarrasque, TPPDC, and (possibly Pun-Pun, because all threads go there at some point :smalltongue: ) among others. "Giovanni" cares for nothing more than a steady diet of new beings, and thus, should rarely ever see play. DMs should not use a Giovanni to railroad, Gary/Mary Sue, or as a BBEG unless they are hosting a CharOp game or something.

Norr
2008-04-13, 12:03 PM
In addition, I wonder if perhaps something to the tune of this formula would do the trick: If a creature's x ([hit die type + Con] divided by 2) times y (it's number of hit die) is less than or equal to it's current hp, they suffer z penalty.

From the SRD, the Dire wolf: x=12,5 ([hit die type (8)+ Con (17)] divided by 2) times y=6 (it's number of hit die) (x*y= 12,5*6= 75) is less than or equal to it's current hp (average max hp 45, max max hp 66), they suffer z penalty.

You might want to work on that equation, but I think you're on the right track. I believe it would be simpler to give the monster an x penalty for being below 75% full hp, 2x penalty for being below 50% and 3x penalty for being below 25% full hp. For a minor penalty x could be 1, for a more severe penalty x could be 2.
There might even be a feat that increases the penalty to the monster.

Journeyman monster catcher (general):
you are more adept at exploiting a monsters weakness during capture.
Prerequisite: Catch ability
Benefit: When a monster is below 25% full hp, it takes an additional -x penalty to its will save to resist your Catch ability.

Expert monster catcher (general):
your ability to exploit a monsters weakness during capture becomes more apparent.
Prerequisite: Journeyman monster catcher, Catch ability
Benefit: When a monster is below 50% full hp, it takes an additional -x penalty to its will save to resist your Catch ability. This penalty overlaps (do not stack with) the penalty from Journeyman monster catcher.

Master monster catcher (general):
you are a master at exploiting a monsters weakness during capture.
Prerequisite: Expert monster catcher, Journeyman monster catcher, Catch ability
Benefit: When a monster is below 75% full hp, it takes an additional -x penalty to its will save to resist your Catch ability. This penalty overlaps (do not stack with) the penalty from Expert monster catcher and Journeyman monster catcher.

GrandMaster monster catcher (epic):
"I own you, I have the deed."
Prerequisite: Master monster catcher, Expert monster catcher, Journeyman monster catcher, Catch ability, 21st level
Benefit: All monsters take an additional -x penalty to its will save to resist your Catch ability. This penalty overlaps (do not stack with) the penalty from Master monster catcher, Expert monster catcher and Journeyman monster catcher.
When a monster is below 50% full hp, it takes an additional -x penalty to its will save to resist your Catch ability. This penalty stacks with the penalty from Expert monster catcher.

Just a few thoughts from my cosy little corner :smallwink:

Collin152
2008-04-13, 06:10 PM
Collin: Yes, it's meant to work with existing monsters. However, since it's still in the drafting phase of class creation, problems like wish abuse don't have a set in stone solution as of yet. Although, one idea is to simply have a list of creatures for a DM to seriously consider avoiding the use of. In regards to wish, a possible balance is that some (if not all) of the effects of wishes cease (in a manner of DM discretion) the moment the creature is returned to your Index. There are a lot of kinks to iron out for this to work. :smallbiggrin:


Consider the Troll.
If your enemies can't use fire, acid, or posses the ability to fly, they can't take it down.
It's like a grass type Shedninja that somehow became resistant to Ice.

Furthermore, because of its regeneration, it would be fairly simple to take this thing to unconciousness, then try and capture it. I think.
The capturing ability needs a bit of refining, I think.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-13, 07:51 PM
Norr: That IS food for thought. Once I figure out what a good starting point for what the penalty should be, I'll keep the feat style in mind.

Collin: True, but that's the trick of it all is it not? Much like the Batman philosophy, you'd have to be prepared. Unlike Batman, you lack divination to predict what's next. The day you add your twinked out troll to your "belt" could be the day the DM rocks the house with the godzilla of cryohydra. I really should hurry and post the rough draft of the class. A Master prepares his "belt" at the beginning of the day and, not knowing what's next (unless he gets a high enough level wizard to cough up the info), he may not have a single prepared creature to take on a challange at all. Unless I've failed to take something into account, it's a reasonable give and take.

Side note: Since a Master and it's creatures share actions, the Master is somewhat vulnerable. If a creature can't be taken down, you can try for the one pulling the strings. Once the Puppeteer is down, the creature returns to the "belt". Right now, the Master class is looking at 2/3 BAB, good Ref/Will saves, a d6 hit die, simple wep prof, and (maybe) light armor prof. Not exactly a combat beast.

Collin152
2008-04-13, 07:53 PM
Norr: That IS food for thought. Once I figure out what a good starting point for what the penalty should be, I'll keep the feat style in mind.

Collin: True, but that's the trick of it all is it not? Much like the Batman philosophy, you'd have to be prepared. Unlike Batman, you lack divination to predict what's next. The day you add your twinked out troll to your "belt" could be the day the DM rocks the house with the godzilla of cryohydra. I really should hurry and post the rough draft of the class. A Master prepares his "belt" at the beginning of the day and, not knowing what's next (unless he gets a high enough level wizard to cough up the info), he may not have a single prepared creature to take on a challange at all. Unless I've failed to take something into account, it's a reasonable give and take.

Cryohydra wouldn't be much against mah Troll.
This still looks fun.
I'd totally play with a Troll, Medusa and Umber Hulk at my disposal.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-13, 08:05 PM
Oh, right. Acid and fire. I didn't have a brain fart there. No sir. :smallwink:

Still, the point (in the edit I made as you posted) remains. No matter how screwed up the monster in the fight is, the Master will always remain an ideal target. In any case, the more I think about it, the more fun it seems to get. The idea of a pack of Masters running about (I'm still trying to figure out how to work the idea of Gyms in this setting) battling mobs and each other amuses me to no end.

Collin152
2008-04-13, 08:19 PM
Gyms: Temples, each centered around a major artifact, immovable from its spot. By winning the right to contact this artifact, you gain a token of power signifting it's power. When you posses the tokens from each temple, you are entitled to attend a conference of the elite guardians who commune with Giovanni directly.
Or something like that.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-13, 09:04 PM
I love you Collin. :smallamused: I'm all kinds of inspirationed now. I'm thinking that making it an epic, or near epic, optional side project suits. Something to do in between story arcs when you are in town perhaps.

Collin152
2008-04-13, 09:07 PM
I love you Collin.

Wish I could say I'm taken, but as that's not the case, I should warn you not to say such things.
Enchanters are not to be given ideas, my dear lad.

It does seem like a very high end thing. Gym leaders should all posses at least one dragon or outsider.
The question is, how to theme each gym?
By element?
Done to death, and less intuitive with these monsters. By alignment? unusual, but workable.
By bizzare themes like Death, Power, or Madness, like Cleric domains?
THeres a thought.

DarknessLord
2008-04-13, 09:31 PM
Then have a Minor Artifact (Masterball) that is an auto-catch. It has to be minor because there are clearly more than one (one in each game in fact) but are very rare.


Correction: from G/S onward, if you won the in-game lottery (literally), you would get another Masterball... [/Poké maniac]

On topic: I really like this idea, even from outside of an OMG D&D POKÉMANS!1!One hundred Eleven!!!11 Perspective, although sadly, I’m not the kind of guy who knows much about game balance at this point, so I wish I could help out more... But still, it looks good, and I want to use it already!

Collin152
2008-04-13, 09:33 PM
As this develops, it resembles pokémon less and less intrinsically, which is a good thing.
I feel the means of capturing need not be spherical.

And I reserve the right to say incantations that may or may not be nesecary in order to call them out, and they will be needlesly long.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-14, 07:59 PM
Collin: Should I be worried? The damage is already done, I feel thoroughly enchanted already. :smalltongue:

I have no clue how the GLs' readied creature lists will look, but I'm considering a minimum of 35 possible Gyms hidden throughout the material plane. Each one would be dedicated to the type or subtype fortified by the Relic being protected, and perhaps have a running theme to boot. For example: The Shapechanger (subtype) Gym could front as a spy network that, in turn, fronts as a trading company.

I'm considering the idea of "badges" granting stacking bonuses to every attribute of your Indexed creatures, so long as they share a type or subtype asscociated with the Gym a "badge" is earned from. This ties into the possible template adding abilities of the class as well as providing a built-in sidequest system for payers to request access to.

The fluff says that (given "his" undisclosed nature) Gio cares only for interesting creatures (to feed upon), and has set up a system to reward the efforts of those who take action to enact his will. The crunch matches this concept by the mechanics of the whole thing. The more types and subtypes Indexed creatures have, the greater their possible power above and beyond inherent template values.

The end result of the way this is all shaping up is to be a vague homage to the franchise, without trying to warp the D&D system in a futile attempt at direct translation. As for the drawn out incantations bit: I support the idea wholeheartedly, and encourage the addition of speaking them in latin. Doubly so if you are level 1. Boy will your party be miffed when they see the CR 1 result of what sounded like a 5 minute Catholic prayer. :smallbiggrin:


DarknessLord: Thanks for the word of encouragement. It's nice to know one's efforts are appreciated.


Norr and Collin: For being so helpful with this project, would either of you like to claim a Gym Leader as a namesake? :smallamused:

Collin152
2008-04-14, 09:14 PM
First:
Whether or not you should be worried depends entirely on whether you believe I can truly cast such spells as Scrying, Suggestion, and Modify Memory. The last one perhaps not beign so nesecary, and perhaps not even the second one.
And yes, I am aware you are male. THat is the entire point.

I like the idea of badges granting some manner of bonuses. As I recall they did that in at least some of the games.

And as for namesaking, I would be honored, though perhaps my surname could fit into settings more easily. Gifford versus Collin, I see no contest.

If ever I play with this thing, I think I will speciliase in incorporeal monsters.
Just look at my avatar.
And havign a wraith, spectre or shadow under my command without being a necromancer... ooh, the power.

Oh, and regarding control over the little buggers: Is it automatic and all encompassing? I find issuing commands to an intelligent creature a little odd. I could easily see the magics inhibiting their mind, but a sufficiently strong willed creature should resist control.

Which is more evil? Capturing a good creature (say, a lantern archon) or using an evil creature (say, a wraith) as a weapon?

How many times will I edit before a response?
I don't suppose any monsters would claim "legendary" status?
Where while technically many exist, even if they go questing for them, only one will ever be encountered by the PCs?
I suppose the older Dragons would/could qualify, as could templated creatures.

Arcesso sordeo animas,
Solicito iratus umbra,
Vita destabilis unde,
Valens en letum,
Archa unde liberatio,
Omnis Obruo.

Latin enough for you?

ThePhantom
2008-04-14, 11:17 PM
What does that latin means?:smallconfused:

Collin152
2008-04-14, 11:28 PM
What does that latin means?:smallconfused:

Let me recall...
Summon the vile spirit,
Stir up the angry shadow,
From detestable life,
Power in Death,
Relsease from your cell,
Destroy Everything.


Obviously I don't actually know Latin, so that's just a rough approximation on both ends. But hey, it sounds like a nice incantation for summoning some kind of undead, possibly a Spectre or Allip.

Norr
2008-04-15, 07:45 AM
Naming a gym leader after me? I'd be honored :smallbiggrin:
My namesake is a trickster all the way through, and I am quite fond of illusions myself. But there are few illusion-using monsters and certainly no subtype associated with them, so maybe psionic-type creatures would be a good choice for a trickster gym, either that or shapechangers.
Needless to say, it would be all about messing with peoples heads, using fear and antipathies, ghost sounds, invisibility, decoys and generally being a pain to find. Think the poison gym form pkmn red/blue with the invisible walls and that gym from another pkmn game where everything is pitch black and you can't see where you're going.
The perfect monster for the gym would, of course, be one of them unbodied psions or maybe a spectral savant.

hush little baby, don't say a word
and never mind that noise you heard
it's just the beast under your bed,
in your closet, in your head
-Metallica, enter sandman

Sadly, that sounds really boring in latin.

But the whole setup brings a rather amusing scenario to mind:
Master1 - Ow!
Master2 -What? Why are you rubbing your nose?
Master1 - I walked into a wall. D*** it's hard to see in here.
Master2 - What wall? *feels around in front of him* An invisible wall, great. Well go around it.
Master1 - Do you feel watched?
Master2 - ...no?
Master1 - It feels like someone's watching me, its freaking me out.
Master2 - Whatever, lets go already.
*creepy-little-girl-laugh*
Master2 - :smalleek: What was that?
Master1 - It came from over there... let's go the other way.
Master2 - agreed.
Master1 - *SCREAM*
Master2 - :smalleek: What!? ...where are you? hello? ...anyone? *looks up*
From the ceiling dozens of glowing eyes stares down at him. :mitd::mitd::mitd:
Master2 - ... *runs for the door*
*outside*
Master1 - You went in before me? We're supposed to be a team!
Master2 - *GitP lack the emotes to represent his reaction* *faints*

And that's just a wall of force, natural darkness, ghost sound/create sound, dimension swap (with the incorporeal manifester then disappearing through the floor), false sensory input and psionic modify memory, in order of appearance.

ThePhantom
2008-04-15, 11:01 AM
So, it seems that you are making a campain about this? The BBEG that comes to mind is Giovanni, but you said not to use him in that role except in CharOp games. While, if you can't have him you can have two recuiring villians. A girl with long red hair who favors snake like monsters, and a boy with blue hair who favors plants and floating monsters. Add in a awaked cat and you got a nice group of villians to attack the party whenever you want.:smallbiggrin:

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-15, 02:07 PM
Collin:
1. It's your mental health at risk from scrying me, who needs Suggestion when I've got no impulse control, and I am already dealing with brain damage induced amnesia. Translation: if it magic were real, you'd be the least of my worries at this point. :smallwink:
2. It's nice that we agree on the general concept of badges at least.
3. How about both? Collin Gifford, leader of the Incorporeal Gym sounds good to me. :smallbiggrin:
4. Seeing as how you need to defeat the creature within 3 rounds of it failing a save made against an ability with a limited number of uses a day (and that's just to obtain it, control is a different story altogether)... I figured it'd be total control with an echo of it's behaviors (to cover things like skill checks and AoOs) before being Indexed.
5. I'd say capturing a good one was the more evil act.
6. A lot.
7. Things like Terrasque, avatars of the gods, and the like would easily qualify.
8. That's up to the DM to decide for the players. If the creature market in one game has nothing above CR5s available, and another has wholesale prices on epic ones... That's all on the people playing.
9. That would depend. Are you trying to be theatrical, or obnoxious? :smalltongue:

Norr: What name would you like used? The Shapechanger Gym seems to be your calling. :smallamused:

Phantom: The Giovanni thing is still in the works. The manifested character would make for a great BBEG, but would have to be adjusted to suit the game being played.

Collin152
2008-04-15, 05:42 PM
Responding in order catagorical:
1. Whats a risk to my mental health is referring to myself in the plural and conversing with myelf as though I were many. I think staring at a guy magically wouldn't hurt me any more than it does nonmagically.
2. Yes, it is good, at least.
3. Hmm, very well, I just find Collin a very... un-fittinginacal name.
Also, are the yreferred to as Gyms in this world? "The Fort of the Weightless Step" means just as much, but sounds much more serious.
Of course, i made that name up as I was typing it, so it's obviosuly much worse than what we can come up with together.
4. I still find the "Initiate Capture, then attempt to defeat" process a little odd. As I seem to recall, if the little buggers were weak enough, you could get em without a fight. More inclined to give them some kind of check with penalties as they are weaker, essentialyl automatic when they're unconcious.
5. Pah, I'll just play a neutral character and screw the morality system. Among other things.
6. Probably, ma cher. You should reply more often.
7. Tarrasque, of course, avatars, of course, but I was pondering on thigns a bit more... common.
8. Selling a dragon at a buyers market: Ask me how!
9. I tend toward theatrics, but I tend to be obnoxious. Which was I?

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-15, 06:29 PM
1. Observing me at the moment? Mundane. Being witness to some of the things that I've done and been through? Not so mundane. I imagine scrying me 6 months ago would have been a gory treat if you've got a morbid streak.

2. I'm still trying to work out how one could exploit the current working model of stacking +1s to all ability scores though. It would take a complicated creature, with many templates, to milk so simple a system. I wonder if some extra benefit should be tacked on as well. So many options with so little playtesting possible... >_<

3. Collin Gifford sounds like a fitting name for the position to me. It is pronounced call-in gi-ford right. Games I run are less high fantasy, more alternate reality with magic instead of tech. The guy with twleve punctuations in his name is the freak while Dan Jones flies under the radar. "Gym" is the slang term for the locations, as is the use of the title of "Leader". Masters tend to fall into using the lingo of their kind. I'd be glad to hear any ideas you may have for the nature of the "gym" your namesake runs in addition to the specifics of the character himself. Just keep in mind that Masters usually lead lives not unlike Warlocks, only without that silly alignment restrictions.

4. Yeah :smallconfused: , it has a timer on it because it was a standard action. As an instant, it makes a lot for sense for it to be a direct save. Still chewing on that whole issue as well as trying to clean up the basics of the base class structure itself.

5. The alignment system in DnD is a bit borked to begin with, and I have an expanding list of houserules and tweaks for player benefits. The removal of most alignment resrictions is a major one. Poison use as a neutral act is another handy mod. This class brings up all kinds of problems in the form of subjective morality and whatnot. That's the half the fun.

6. I'm in fear of getting what few interested parties I have in this project bored if I have nothing new to show. >_>

7. Such as? Trolls and Hydra perhaps?

8. I imagine "Gyms" will be the market hubs of Master commerce. The buying, selling, and trading of creatures could be a tough system to balance using WBL. The nature of the class ability to warp creatures with templates could further complicate things. Not an easy project this.

9. Both? :smalltongue: I know I am. :smallbiggrin:


Also, I'm looking at this as the basic class traits:
Master:
Hit die: d6
Skills: 8+Int: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic/Psionic Device, Use Rope
BAB: 2/3
Saves: Good Ref and Will
Proficiencies: Simple Weapons, Light Armor

I get the feeling that it's a bit TOO good though. 6+Int might make the Rogue less insecure about his place in the party if coupled with the removal of Disable Device, Open Lock, and UM/PD. The Master is supposed to be something of a 5th wheel in a normal game. Something of a combat oriented face, alternative to the Bard. I just worry that if the class loses it's skill monkey status, it'll be rendered as useless as a primary caster in an anti-magic field.

Also, here is another possible way for Catch to work:
Catch:
Casting Time: Instant
Range: Close (25 feet + 5 feet/2 class levels)
Area or Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous, permanent.
Saving Throw: no
Spell Resistance: no
Effect: Roll a d20. If the result equals (or is lower than) your class level +5, roll a d4. Multiply the result of this second roll by 25. If the total is higher than the percentage of the creature’s remaining hit points, it is captured. Creatures captured in this way are transported to your Index Crystal and are permanently bound to your direct control until they are “Released”. While within an anti-magic field, you are denied all access to creatures within the Crystal (in addition, active Indexed creatures are recalled while you remain in the field). You may use Catch a number of times per day equal to your class level plus your Cha mod.

Collin152
2008-04-15, 06:47 PM
I don't expect people to be in combat personally too much, so physically fine, though I'd toen down the skill points a little.

Now, to the numbered list.
1. I don't know exactly what you mean, but you can't be any worse than my... friend? Kyle, and I can't help but stare at him. Even when he's scaring me. Especially then.
2. A bunch of +1s aren't totally exploitable, but they could still be broken.
3. Yes, Call in. Gifford... Gih, as in Githyanki and Gift, Ford, as in Ford. The name means, together, Generous in Victory.
I like it, but I wouldn't name my kid that.
If I ever had kids, which seems highly unlikely. Anyways.
4. Yeah, I'm sure we can hammer out capturing issues later.
5. I figured most people throw alignment out the window, and it would really interfere with this kind of playstyle. I mean, these people capture wild beasts, sometimes sentient creatures, and forces them to fight on their behalf.
6. Oh, ma cher, you cannot toss me off this project, no matter how boring, so long as you keep posting I'll continue to respond.
7. Hydras most certainly. They heal themselves, they can attack so many times so quickly... I can see Hydras advancing in number of heads as you use them more, though. Could be interesting (but hell to manage the paperwork for).
8. So, Masters can alter their beasts with templates? Like, say, I get a Bulette, and through psuedosupernatural/ outright supernatural means I infuse it with unholy pow'r?
9. To some, theatrics are inherantly obnoxious. But mind you, I may exaggerate, but I never produce a statement where there is no truth. Also, magic is real. I've used it.

If you want me to ponder on details for this... "gym," I shall, though some basic parameters are necesible.

I like that new capture method.
Using improved capture tools could add a static bonus to the second result (ie, If the creatures hp are below (1d4*25 + 10) %)

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-15, 08:31 PM
Skill points dropped to 6+Int.

1. I'll not get into specifics, but I've gone through things that make waterboarding look pleasant in comparison. There's a reason I'm on month 6 of outpatient rehab, and it isn't for drug use. :smalltongue:
2. With 4 "badges" earned, a creature with 4 related Type/Subtypes would have +4 to Str through Cha, granting a +2 on just about every possible roll. Not really game destroying, but I worry about I'm missing some easy exploit. The CharOp board has turned me into a paranoid wreck. :smalleek:
3. Not sure how well that meshes with the habit of unleashing Allips on your enemies, but it's still a cool name. It beats my asian lycanthropic name anyway. Davin Chan Dok roughly means "to worship the moon".
4. With the whole class concept centered on it, there's no need to rush. The numbers of new abilities are always a pain to balance, especially when it's an all-new mechanic.
5. Alignment has pretty much been hucked out the window and left in the rain for all of my favorite campaigns as a player or DM.
6. What was that you were saying about enchanting? :smalltongue:
7. The whole class is a nightmare of paperwork at any level except 1. I still want to finish balancing the concept out so I can play it though.
8. That is correct. It allows for an ever expanding list of things a Master can accomplish as they level. I can see this becoming a balance issue if the game's DM is lax, but that's an acceptable flaw in my book.
9. I share your inclination in the first part, but have yet to see proof of the second.
10. There are no set in stone rules on how "Gyms" operate as of yet (the chaotic Gym may not even have a consistant Leader), I'm more focused on cleaning this class up at the moment. What I'm fishing for are the fluff and style aspect of what you'd like in the place.

Collin152
2008-04-15, 08:56 PM
1. I see... Rather, I wish I did. Damn Low level bard status...
2. At least they aren't wierd abilities that can mesh with unanticipated thigns to create massive cheese. Also, consider things other than stat boosts, like a bonus ot armor class.
3. That's a nice name. Now, Allips, that's crazy (heh.) Wraiths, that's what I keep waiting for my true enemies.
4. Hmm. Well, I'm nowhere near as skilled as many other s with crunch, perhaps we can recruit one, if only temporarily? I'm more of a fluff man myself.
5. Good on ya. Not Good, mind you, but good.
6. Ah, Monsieur, ma cher, surely you did not think I would continue to post such lengthy replies if I id not truly care?
7. Well, Hydras beign a nightmare on a round to round basis, with all those heads' HP to keep track of.
8. So, this using new templates, or prexisting ones, or a healthy blend of the two?
9. Oh, that's okay. Magic isn't meant to be believed, but to be enjoyed. Much lke love is not meant to be defined, but to be felt.
10. What, like filled with arches, columns, and side rooms, half ceilings, uneven floor, that sort of thing?

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-15, 09:28 PM
1. I diplomancer couldn't pry the info out of me, I wouldn't beat yourself up too much. :smalltongue:
2. Yeah, the little stat bonuses are just the working model while I'm working on the meat and potatoes of the base class.
3. Eh, it's a name. Dread Wraiths are somewhere near the heart of evil.
4. I'm sure I can rope in a crunch monkey or two as soon as the first draft is done. Besides, I think it's already shaping up nicely with just fluff prompts.
5. :smalltongue:
6. You could just be bored, Jean-Claude. :smallamused:
7. Yeah. Not looking forward to a player requesting a chance to capture or trade for one. :smalleek:
8. That will depend upon how well recieved the concept is. If my players are excited by the thing, I may try my hand at low impact templates that alter creature type in addition to the pre-existing ones.
9. That doesn't mean I'll stop trying. :smallannoyed: I'll define it yet. *fist pump*
10. Like motivations of the group, what subculture do the gym members have, what cover (if any) is used to mask the true nature of the group? That, and the nature of the building(s), color schemes, style, and whatnot. It's your alter ego's house, so to speak, be creative. :smallsmile:

Collin152
2008-04-15, 09:40 PM
6. I'd more call it procrastiniating, but that's half of it.
10. Oh, yes, let me see what i can come up with at the moment...
Color scheme, a very dark brown-purple with a sort of beige trim. Very bland. Architectural style emphasizing things protruding here and there, little ledges and balconies and pillars and things like that (perfect for incorporeal thigns to hide inside, and teaching non-masters who may train there the value of cover). It sort of hosts a band of theives, with the cover of an acrobatic troupe. Very tall, multileveled buildings, with relatively small rooms, and multiple small buildings rather than larger ones.
That's all I got right now.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-15, 09:51 PM
6. -and the other half?
10. I like it. Lots of surfaces through which one can defend the place from total cover. From the description, I get the impression of a Gothic style, with (vaguely) ancient Chinese design for the towering buildings.

Collin152
2008-04-15, 09:57 PM
6. -and the other half?
10. I like it. Lots of surfaces through which one can defend the place from total cover. From the description, I get the impression of a Gothic style, with (vaguely) ancient Chinese design for the towering buildings.

6. Honest interest. In both the project and your intriguingly un-repulsd manner.
10. Yes! Precisley what I meant!
Also, if the leader were to be described in ALignment terms, he'd be True Neutral. His goals and means go beyond any sense of purpose, he simply goes about them in utter conviction.

Also, I recall you mentioning that the Master is vulnerable when commanding his minions. Suppose I had a Wraith hiding in the ground in front of me, readying an attack...

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-15, 10:16 PM
6. You seemed to find the concept a bit juvenile when you pirst posted. :smalltongue: As for the bit about being repulsed: you're being very helpful with a project I'm killing time with for the sake of amusing friends I've had for nearly a decade now, and you're doing it in an enjoyable manner. If that is grounds for repulsion, I've been living my life incorrectly. :smalltongue:
10. That's a good start. The (as of yet unnamed) Incorporeal Gym is to be a center of practicality. Would the Gym have some sort of relationship with the Undead one in some form? The two seem to have quite a bit in common in terms of preferred creatures.

Collin152
2008-04-15, 10:21 PM
6. You seemed to find the concept a bit juvenile when you pirst posted. :smalltongue: As for the bit about being repulsed: you're being very helpful with a project I'm killing time with for the sake of amusing friends I've had for nearly a decade now, and you're doing it in an enjoyable manner. If that is grounds for repulsion, I've been living my life incorrectly. :smalltongue:
10. That's a good start. The (as of yet unnamed) Incorporeal Gym is to be a center of practicality. Would the Gym have some sort of relationship with the Undead one in some form? The two seem to have quite a bit in common in terms of preferred creatures.

6. I revoke those statements. It grew on me.
10. Yes, practicality, no nonsense. As for the undead, yes, I noticed there seem to be few or no non-undead incorporeal creatures, unless you count the Ethereal ones (I don't). The closest others I could think of (Lantern Archon, Willow the Wisp) are technically corporeal.
I could see a strained connection, where the Undead feel the Incorporeal are a branch of themselves, while the Incorporeal feel the Undead go about their tasks in an altogether uncouth manner and dislike affiliation with them.

Norr
2008-04-16, 03:42 PM
Norr: What name would you like used? The Shapechanger Gym seems to be your calling. :smallamused:

I see you've begun talking about gym architecture. For the gym itself (once found behnid the fronts of fronts of fronts) I don't really have as specific a design in mind as Collin. Some important features would be trap doors in the floor (with some crawlspace underneath), and secret doors in the walls to facilitate movement for the 'natives'. Also, the ceiling would be a sturdy suspended ceiling suspended ceiling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropped_ceiling) removable tiles, allowing the residents to move both above and below trespassers, who would be surrounded at all times without noticing. The easiest scenario for this gym would be to lead trespassers through a labyrinth using ever-changing walls (walls of force, walls of iron, walls of stone or just regular sliding walls) and doors, leading them around and back to the entrance (now the exit) they originally came from. The challenge would be to find a way to circumvent the labyrinth (maybe by finding a hidden trap-door, but then again, the crawlspace is as easy to make into a labyrinth as the rooms above).
The real crawlspaces would probably be small enough that only the shapechanging gym monsters and wizards would be able to navigate them.

Also, for the gym leader name you could just use my forum name. It's short, nondescript (goes with the theme eh?) and sounds better than Patrick W. M. Dunbar (of course, my three last initials would be appropriate to a fire subtype gym...).

Also for the crunch, I'm no elite but I have a lot of time on my hands and have made a class or two before, so I could try my hand on it.

Concerning the eventual campain you don't really have to have Giovanni as the BBEG. You could run it as a regular campain with one challenge after another, and visiting gyms are a secondary (but important) objective for the masters because extra power is always nice when dealing with cultists or corrup mob leaders. Eventually, the PCs might catch on to the idea that their powers aren't natural and start researching their nature, putting them on the trail to Giovannis true nature. It can be a journey of shocking or horrible self-discovery, especially if you can 'delete' creatures you no longer need to free up space and it turns out all those 'deleted' creatures ended up in Giovannis gullet.

The badges have good potential for flavor. Instead of each badge granting +1 to str, dex and con, they could add minor abilities thematically matching the subtype of the badge, or improve abilities common to creatures of the relevant subtype. Incorporeal creatures could get improved deflection AC from the incorporeal badge for example, or creatures with the fire subtype could get extra fire damage like the salamander (which would increase its fire damage). These bonuses should, of course, still be very small like +1 or +2, or maybe 1d4 at the most.

Collin, there are actually some non-undead, non-ethereal incorporeal creatures, specifically the unbodied, the spirit of the sand, shadow elemental, all energons, Phantasmal Slayer, Spirit Animal, Unraveler and others, go here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablefilter=incorporeal) and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablefilter=incoporeal) and check for those that aren't undead.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-16, 04:14 PM
Collin:
6. That's good to know. So long as the idea works like a mold, and continues to grow on an expanding number of people, it might go somewhere.
10. I like it. That could make for in-game drama between the two. I see the Undead Gym Leader thinking that his/her takeover of the Incorporeal Gym shares the same inevitability as Death itself, whereas the the opposing view is that they don't stand a... ghost of a chance? :smalltongue:

Norr:
1. You magnificent bastard. Something in your badge commentary shook me out of my creative funk on the subject. I'm working on your idea of "badges" granting relavant bonuses to your active creatures, so long as they share a type or subtype associated with the Gym the "badge" is earned from. This bonus will be equal to x, where x is the number of “badges” the creature's Master has acquired.
2. The Gym setup is great. It makes me think of the Koga compound in Japan. Very ninja, and the shifting shape of the building is quite appropriate.
3. Yeah. As I said, Gio should only be whipped out in order to put CharOp beasts in their place (or at least provide them with SOME sort of challange by using their own methods against them).
4. As for the GL name, how about Norr Dunbar? I like the ring of it.

Aklathotep
2008-04-16, 04:30 PM
Hello, PokeFan of several years here, hoping to toss his two cents in. I've really enjoyed reading through all of your ideas here and was thinking I might be able to bounce a few off all of you in return.

To combat the Regen and Natural healing of creatures such as Trolls and Hydras why don't you actually make them a modified Damage Reduction? If I hit a troll for 10 and it has Regen 4 then I only inflict 6 damage. If I hit a troll with 10 Fire or Acid though it goes straight through. This simulates them instantly recovering health but not to the point that they heal all damage. Now as for actual Damage Reduction, they over lap! So if I make it through your Regen then DR will still shave off a few points.
Note: As to the above idea, creatures with Regen and DR should maybe have a slightly higher CR that scales?

Another idea that crossed my mind is that if your "Pokeballs" are Minor Artifacts, along with having 'Catch' they would also have a Contingency spell on them that would recall your monster should they receive a set amount of damage. This would mainly be to add a little balance so your Dire Balor of Legend with 500 hitpoints doesn't sweep the field all the time and it would keep your monsters from Dying.
Note: Contingency-Should monster under the effect of 'Catch' take '#' points of damage they are withdrawn from combat and cannot be summoned for **Insert time**. Should monster under the effect of 'Catch' be reduced to 0 hit points or lower they are withdrawn from combat and returned to 1 hit point. Monsters recalled in this fashion cannot be summoned for **Insert time** and heal at 4(?) times the normal rate from resting.
(This also helps keep undead and the like from being destroyed when they hit 0 hit points.)

I hope my two ideas can help you somehow! Feel free to totally ignore them or tweak them to fit with in whatever way you see fit. :smallbiggrin:

Collin152
2008-04-16, 06:46 PM
Collin, there are actually some non-undead, non-ethereal incorporeal creatures, specifically the unbodied, the spirit of the sand, shadow elemental, all energons, Phantasmal Slayer, Spirit Animal, Unraveler and others, go here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablefilter=incorporeal) and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/monsters&tablefilter=incoporeal) and check for those that aren't undead.

Hmm, nothing I've ever heard of, and nothing especially interesting.

Meh, the undead make less... unethical minions.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-16, 09:57 PM
Although, as a Master, it doesn't matter what the original host would do. Angel or Devil, once captured, it's your puppet. :smallbiggrin:

Collin152
2008-04-16, 10:19 PM
Although, as a Master, it doesn't matter what the original host would do. Angel or Devil, once captured, it's your puppet. :smallbiggrin:

Exactly.
Making an angel slaughter people who are attacking me over an overblown squabble...
Less justifiable than a beast whose existance is an abomination anyways.
But hey, Master Gifford could care les for the means so long as his ends are met.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-16, 10:22 PM
Is that a hint at wanting an incorporeal templated Solar? :smalltongue:

Collin152
2008-04-16, 10:26 PM
Is that a hint at wanting an incorporeal templated Solar? :smalltongue:

...
It is now?
Hmm, a template to make something incorporeal... without drastically altering its other charictaristics...
An incorporeal Solar loses its awesome Swrod and Bow, though.
Well, it still has them, but they aren't Ghost Touch, you know.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-16, 10:30 PM
I'm sure there are a few goodie-two-shoe creature types out there that could use a session of ghosthood followed, shortly thereafter, by an old fashioned atrocity in the name of practicality. :smallamused:

Collin152
2008-04-16, 10:32 PM
I'm sure there are a few goodie-two-shoe creature types out there that could use a session of ghosthood followed, shortly thereafter, by an old fashioned atrocity in the name of practicality. :smallamused:

Umm...
Can you repeat the part where you said the stuff all about the... things?

The things?

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-16, 10:45 PM
I'm sure there are a few goodie-two-shoe creature types out there that could use a session of ghosthood followed, shortly thereafter, by an old fashioned atrocity in the name of practicality. :smallamused:

:smalltongue:

I've reached the conclusion that the Gyms dedicated to creature Types will be the more mainstream places of power within the Master subculture, with some even serving dual purposes. The "Undead Gym", for example, could also serve as a temple for Vecna worshipping clerics and the "Construct Gym" could be the true source of the Warforged. "Gyms", like the two claimed by board members' later egos, could be something more like to "Indy" crowd by comparison. Outside of interest in the front operations of such places, only Masters would have cause to go out of their way to pay a visit.

Collin152
2008-04-16, 11:06 PM
I like the sound of that idea, to an extent.
This makes the Humanoid gym, no doubt essentially the slave capital of the world, more present than the Fire gym.
I'd still like to visit the Humanoid gym for a litle shoppping every now and again.

Damn, I'd hate to wander around the Dragon gym without some serious protection.

So, if it's based on types and subtypes...
Theres a Reptillian sub gym?

ThePhantom
2008-04-16, 11:20 PM
If it is following that rule of types and subtypes, it seems logical that the answer to that is yes. Even if that seems a little limited to have a gym based on it.

Quxelopqr
2008-04-16, 11:26 PM
I love this idea, and I remembered I made a base class for this exact purpose. It's found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75137&highlight=Trainer+Base+Class) if you'd like to see it.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-16, 11:41 PM
Collin: With humaniods dominating the prime material like an unchecked plague in most campaign settings, I'd be willing to bet that the Humaniod Gym could operate secretly under the guise of a planar Death Row. How delightfully morbid would it be if they and the Undeath Gym were partnered up in such an operation?

ThePhantom: Yes indeed. The current draft has it being somewhere tropical, sitting on the cost near marshlands.

Quxelopqr: Thanks for approving of the setting concept, but I already have a class in the works for this that suits the feel. I'd consider yours, but this setting is to be just a touch more morally questionable than shoving cute animals into airtight balls several size catagories too small for them. :smalltongue:

Collin152
2008-04-16, 11:50 PM
Collin: With humaniods dominating the prime material like an unchecked plague in most campaign settings, I'd be willing to bet that the Humaniod Gym could operate secretly under the guise of a planar Death Row. How delightfully morbid would it be if they and the Undeath Gym were partnered up in such an operation?


my, my, is there nobodythe Undeath Gym doesn't seek afilliation with?

ThePhantom
2008-04-17, 12:28 AM
Maybe constucts? Undead goes with a lot things, because undead is using what was living. Constucts however don't die in a way that can be made into undead normally, but constucts can kill a lot of things.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-17, 02:14 PM
Think of the bahavior as being a subtle homage to the line that the only things certain in life are death and taxes. Giovanni takes it's due when you die, thus both apply at once and the Undead Gym is there to gather up the remainder. The Undead, Construct, and (I think) Outsider types are not edible to Illithids, so I have no way to explain why they exist. Well, unless Gio get an expanded Menu upon the acquisition of divinity or something anyway.

Sledge_bro
2008-04-17, 02:34 PM
Erm.. this is out of date, and I know that yours is different, but :

http://http://www.geocities.com/eco_mono/Pkmnd20/ (http://www.geocities.com/eco_mono/Pkmnd20/)

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-17, 03:28 PM
I see what you mean. It's a lot more true to the original setting than what I'm shooting for, and not nearly as dark. :smallsmile:

Collin152
2008-04-17, 05:18 PM
Think of the bahavior as being a subtle homage to the line that the only things certain in life are death and taxes. Giovanni takes it's due when you die, thus both apply at once and the Undead Gym is there to gather up the remainder. The Undead, Construct, and (I think) Outsider types are not edible to Illithids, so I have no way to explain why they exist. Well, unless Gio get an expanded Menu upon the acquisition of divinity or something anyway.

So, Gio is an Illithid?
He's only eating the brains?
That seems a little inneficient.
And odd.
I expected something more like... A shapechanger that turns into a massive vortex of swirling teeth and a massive gullet.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-17, 05:52 PM
Insane Elder Brain glutton. So... perhaps it just eats everything since it became a god? I'm guessing that it'd be something like a demiplane that's not dissimilar to a massive black hole at this point.

Collin152
2008-04-17, 06:09 PM
Insane Elder Brain glutton. So... perhaps it just eats everything since it became a god? I'm guessing that it'd be something like a demiplane that's not dissimilar to a massive black hole at this point.

A God who is a plane?
Hmm...
So anything you see in it is an illusion so he can entertain ihmself before devouring you from out of reality itself?

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-17, 06:22 PM
Not sure yet. I'm still trying to leave it open until I finish the class and example gyms.

ThePhantom
2008-04-17, 06:52 PM
How then are even CharOps supposed to fight him if he's a plane? You can't attack a plane itself, though they might think of something.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-17, 07:09 PM
The avatar of Gio was the CharOp foe, though I suppose the d2 crusader could do the trick.

Collin152
2008-04-17, 07:48 PM
So, Gio's avatar exists... to convince people to feed him?
That sounds like many jokes will be made.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-17, 07:56 PM
*points at the thread title*

Collin152
2008-04-17, 07:59 PM
*points at the thread title*

Of course jokes will be made, I meant... about the darker element.
If the only thign capable of bringing seriousness is naught but a joke...
of course, that's half the fun, isn't it?

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-17, 08:24 PM
No matter how gritty a game, humor is vital, even if it's morbid (or slightly perverse, depending upon the group in question).

Collin152
2008-04-18, 05:27 PM
No matter how gritty a game, humor is vital, even if it's morbid (or slightly perverse, depending upon the group in question).

Okay, I concede this point.

But still, a villain whos goal is gluttony...
Well, it is one of the seven deadly sins, I guess...

Foeofthelance
2008-04-18, 06:07 PM
Hmmm, a couple of questions and ideas.

It was mentioned earlier that pokemon could be switched at an eldritch machine. While more in keeping with the games, might I instead suggest they can be picked at the beginning of the day, a la` a wizard's spells? It would be more convenient for the players, especially since a roleplaying world would be unlikely to as closed as the videogame ones. I would also suggest the mons heal over night (as long as they are granted a full nights rest).

How would capturing and leveling intelligent monsters work? Would they just gain HD, or class levels instead? After all, if Alakazam and Dragonite can be captured...

If this turns into a game, can I play? :D

curtis
2008-04-19, 05:30 AM
OK, idea cauldron time.

So with the Gyms, something like Abberation Gym, Animal Gym, Construct Gym, Elemental Gym, Fey Gym, Giant Gym, Humanoid Gym, Magical Beast Gym, Monstrous Humanoid Gym, Ooze Gym, Outsider Gym, Plant Gym, Undead Gym, Vermin Gym, Air Gym, Angel Gym, Aquatic Gym, Archon Gym, Augmented Gym, Chaotic Gym, Cold Gym, Earth Gym, Evil Gym, Extraplanar Gym, Fire Gym, Goblinoid Gym, Good Gym, Incorporeal Gym, Lawful Gym, Native Gym, Reptilian Gym, Shapechanger Gym, Swarm Gym, and Water Gym.

Lists are good.

If I may, I suggest also something like a colossal/gargantuan gym.

On gym structure, I think the master should be separate from the main area (the maze, etc.), and the master battle should be just monster Vs. monster, and their commanders should be invulnerable.

On evolving monsters, if maybe they accumulate XP, and when they get enough it’s a minor sidequest to evolve?

That’s it.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-19, 12:29 PM
Collin:
Indeed it IS one of the seven. Makes me wonder if an expansion of the project is in order at some point. :smallamused:

Foeofthelance:
1: That's exactly where direction the class was taking. Your "belt" is set like a wizard's, at the beginning of each day. However, I think that the 8 hour limit is a bit much. A Ring of Sustenance might provide a short enough rest that a Master could serve as a great night watchman eh? We'll see what happens over the course of this week.

2: That's one of the problems I am having. One the one hand, casting is retardedly good, and allowing a Master to level up casters just smacks of possible bad times. However, if a Master can already nab high CR creatures that HAVE casting abilities... I suppose they should be able to add class levels in addition to advancing and applying templates. Hmm...

3. Well I DO need to playtest the system right? :smallbiggrin:

curtis:
1:
The Type Gyms are:
Aberration
Animal
Construct
Dragon
Elemental
Fey
Giant
Humanoid
Magical Beast
Monstrous Humanoid
Ooze
Outsider
Plant
Undead
Vermin
The is for Type Gyms to have a badge that grants a unique ability to creatures, of the related type, in your Index. Something along the lines of: The Giant Badge grants all Giant Types: Powerful Build (Ex).


The Subtype Gyms are:
Air
Angel
Aquatic
Archon
Augmented
Chaotic
Cold
Earth
Evil
Extraplanar
Fire
Goblinoid
Good
Incorporeal
Lawful
Native
Reptilian
Shapechanger
Swarm
Water
The idea behind the Badges of these Gyms is for them to have a selection of bonuses that increase in potency with the number of badges you have that share a type with the Indexed creature. The Fire Badge might grant a badge bonus (Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis, Cha, or additional Fire damage, badge bonuses do not stack) to a creature with the Fire subtype when it is readied that day. So, using the previous example as a starting point: You ready a Fire Giant, and have both the Giant and Fire Badges. It automatically gains Powerful Build (Ex) and you can choose if it gets a +2 (the number of badges you have that share a type with the creature) to an ability score, or +4 (the same number of badges times itself) fire damage on all attack rolls made by the giant.

2: There are already 35 Gyms, and I'm sure that anything that big has at least 1 of the listed Types.

3: I don't know about a sidequest, I think they'd just change over that period where the Master rests and heals them. So... a night's rest could mean restored hp for the creature as well as the addition of, say, the Feral template.

curtis
2008-04-19, 02:15 PM
3. Well I DO need to playtest the system right? :smallbiggrin:

I could help with this. For the Greater Good.:smallbiggrin:

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-19, 03:07 PM
You're only willing to make that sacrifice for the sake of the greater good. I see... :smalltongue:

Collin152
2008-04-19, 05:02 PM
On gym structure, I think the master should be separate from the main area (the maze, etc.), and the master battle should be just monster Vs. monster, and their commanders should be invulnerable.


Well, here's the idea i had while considering how my alter ego gym master would act.
He would warn the chalnger that, while he won't attack his opponant directly on his own, if the challenger attacks him, he will follow suit.
Though I doubt the more chaotic gyms would uphold such an honor system.


Reflecting on the 7 deadly sins, they don't lend themselves very well to more like Gio.
Gluttony, check.
Greed, pretty mundane.
Sloth, no idea. Slavery?
Wrath, nada.
Envy, workable, but pretty boring.
Pride, sensible, but need smore work than my allergy-addled head has right now.
Lust... :eek:

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-19, 06:50 PM
Gio would be the source of this little add-on to settings, so of course Gluttony works out grand with him.

Greed. Gotta catch em all. :smalltongue:
Sloth sounds a lot like a call for clavery.
Wrath goes with anything. Index'd critters hit hard, and refresh every day. endless supply of weapons, and you aren't putting yourself in harm's way as you use them.
Envy, think about all those shows on Animal Planet. Horse shows, dog shows, best of breed this, and best of show that.
Pride... I suppose something that goes with the theme of wanting to create or capture the most x creature EVAR!!1!
Lust. I love how sick and depraved this theme could possibly be, just the word alone inspires a small :smallyuk: feeling. The lightest of light themes would probably include a LOT of anthromorphic cats/foxes walking around and looking cute, the worst could include tenticled zombie abonimations covered in spikes...


-on fire.

Collin152
2008-04-19, 07:36 PM
What is clavery?
Is that a typo or something?

It is interesting that Gluttony is how we begin, when Gluttony's archetypical demon is Beelzebub. The funnest demonic name after Mephistopheles.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-19, 07:47 PM
Yeah, that was supposed to be slavery. :smallfrown: Stupid hands... OBEY YOUR MASTER!

It's just a cool name in the spirit of Wolverine... bub.

Collin152
2008-04-19, 07:53 PM
Yeah, that was supposed to be slavery. :smallfrown: Stupid hands... OBEY YOUR MASTER!

It's just a cool name in the spirit of Wolverine... bub.

Ah, but your hands, like the rest of your body, do obey their master...
Me!

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-19, 08:04 PM
If such is truely the case, I have but one response:

"Stop hitting yourself." :smalltongue:

Collin152
2008-04-19, 08:06 PM
If such is truely the case, I have but one response:

"Stop hitting yourself." :smalltongue:

My pain and my distress, I find it is not easy to express!
My amazement, my surprise you may learn from the expression on my eyes!

ThePhantom
2008-04-19, 09:09 PM
How long have you been a poet,
And how long have you know it.

Collin152
2008-04-19, 09:18 PM
How long have you been a poet,
And how long have you know it.

Although to you it seems alarming,
That my speech should seem so charming,
To me it is a simple matter,
Speaking thus in idle chatter,
Beat and Rhyme,
Meter and Time,
A feat, though one not quite so high,
But everyday life to such as I.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-19, 09:56 PM
*sigh* Looks like the Incorporeal Gym Leader will screw with Badge hopefuls by reciting prose throughout the conflict. Very Cyrano. :smalltongue:

ThePhantom
2008-04-19, 10:01 PM
Personality quirks are fun to roleplay:smallbiggrin:

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-19, 10:04 PM
:smallbiggrin: My players are going to hate it. I'll mix the action descriptions in with the poetics so they are forced to read it. :smallbiggrin:

Collin152
2008-04-19, 10:08 PM
*sigh* Looks like the Incorporeal Gym Leader will screw with Badge hopefuls by reciting prose throughout the conflict. Very Cyrano. :smalltongue:

Yes he shall.

Cyrano? I do not understand.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-19, 10:27 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrano_de_Bergerac

The poet duelist.

Collin152
2008-04-19, 11:52 PM
Ah.

Well, now perhaps you see my fondness for long winded incantations, hm?

curtis
2008-04-20, 06:26 AM
I was watching Doctor Who yesterday, and it gave me an idea...

What if (as you said), Gio was a great vortex of eating, and his power was manifested in not one, but many, servants, linked by a hive mind.

Just a thought.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-20, 10:54 AM
The secret of the Masters who wear the crimson mark perhaps? I can see potential here Curt. :smallamused:

curtis
2008-04-20, 01:20 PM
The moral of the story: watch Doctor who.

Collin152
2008-04-20, 06:58 PM
The moral of the story: watch Doctor who.

Which Doctor Who, now?

Not Witch Doctor Who, now, that's actually a pretty boring show.

Foeofthelance
2008-04-20, 07:21 PM
Hmm, fo advancing creatures as casters, say maybe once every three HD they can gain a caster level? Still not sure how that would work with free willed sentients though...

Just take it out all together? Once captured a creature can't learn any new "classes", just what it would get if its HD progressed normally. For a Monster/Humanoid race such as goblins and kobolds, it would be based on what class they were when they were captured. So if you want a spellcaster of those races, you have to spend the time to track one down and find it. Also, no prestige classes being added on, etc. After all, not like you can evolve a Rhyhorn into Lugia.

I think the eight hours actually works better, especially as it would add a reason to maybe multiclass. For example, Cleric/Masters would be a fair imitation of Nurse Joy, a Warrior/Master as Jenny, or a Rogue/Master as an Explorer. (I was actually considering a Ranger/Master, and being a Trainer.)

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-20, 09:13 PM
Foeofthelance: Hmm... I was thinking about this very subject as I was getting signed up at the local gym (of all places). I really don't think that I want to use class advancement at all (yay for waffling on a major issue). Just templates and hit die advancement for Masters to use to warp their victims. If a creature has casting due to race, great. That's all the magic candy you get. As for the resting time bit, I'm still on the fence about it. I'm thinking that the minimum timeframe will end up being something akin to the number of creatures you can ready +1 (to account for the cracked out familiar/animal companion) so that by the time you can ready 5 creatures, it takes 5 hours of rest to ready them all.

Collin152
2008-04-20, 09:23 PM
Hmm... I was thinking about this very subject as I was getting signed up at the local gym (of all places).
Hooray for mental images.


I really don't think that I want to use class advancement at all (yay for waffling on a major issue). Just templates and hit die advancement for Masters to use to warp their victims. If a creature has casting due to race, great. That's all the magic candy you get. As for the resting time bit, I'm still on the fence about it. I'm thinking that the minimum timeframe will end up being something akin to the number of creatures you can ready +1 (to account for the cracked out familiar/animal companion) so that by the time you can ready 5 creatures, it takes 5 hours of rest to ready them all.
All very logical.

So, if I capture a human sorcerer, how does it advance?
With humanoid hitdice?

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-20, 09:30 PM
It's advanced by racial HD (if any) and/or you can pile high templates until it's a CR 20 with 1 hit die caster with a crapton of strange mutations. :smalltongue:

Norr
2008-04-21, 06:19 AM
Well, if someone just 'have' to have spellcasting they could always multiclass, and on top of that there are creatures that advance spellcasting naturally (dragons be one, unbodied be another) so I don't think there is much of an issue.

Also, do we have any kind of class progression for the master yet? If not I could whip up something crude relatively quick.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-21, 02:14 PM
This is a snippet of the crude version of the class, I'm not at all happy with it thus far. It doesn't look like the class has many options, but once I finish the writeup on what the Index does, you'll see why those Type and Subtype additions radically expand one's options.


The Master

Class Details:
Alignment:Any
Hit Die: d6
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope
Skill Points at Each Level: 6+ Int modifier
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: Simple Weapons and Light Armor
{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Familiarity|Special
1st|+0|+0|+2|+2|Type|Index, Companion
2nd|+1|+0|+3|+3|Subtype|
3rd|+2|+0|+3|+3|Type|
4th|+3|+0|+4|+4|Subtype|Readied 1
5th|+3|+0|+4|+4|Type|
6th|+4|+0|+5|+5|Subtype|
7th|+5|+0|+5|+5|Type|
8th|+6/+1|+0|+6|+6|Subtype|Readied 2
9th|+6/+1|+0|+6|+6|Type|
10th|+7/+2|+0|+7|+7|Subtype|
11th|+8/+3|+0|+7|+7|Type|
12th|+9/+4|+0|+8|+8|Subtype|Readied 3
13th|+9/+4|+0|+8|+8|Type|
14th|+10/+5|+0|+9|+9|Subtype|
15th|+11/+6/+1|+0|+9|+9|Type|
16th|+12/+7/+2|+0|+10|+10|Subtype|Readied 4
17th|+12/+7/+2|+0|+10|+10|Type|
18th|+13/+8/+3|+0|+11|+11|Subtype|
19th|+14/+9/+4|+0|+11|+11|Type|
20th|+15/+10/+5|+0|+12|+12|Subtype|Readied 5
[/table]



Companion

{table="head"]Level|Bonus HD|Nat Armor adj.|Str/Dex Adj. |Int|Special
1st-2nd|+3|+3|+0|6| Speak with creatures of it’s kind, Evasion
3rd-4th|+4|+4|+1|7| Empathetic Link, Alertness
5th-6th|+5|+5|+1|8| Devotion, Skill/Save Bonus
7th-8th|+6|+6|+2|9| Speak with Master
9th-10th|+7|+7|+3|10| Speech
11-12th|+8|+8|+3|11| Improved Evasion, Spell Resistance
13th-14th|+9|+9|+4|12| Multiattack
15th-16th|+10|+10|+5|13| Share Spells
17th-18th|+11|+11|+5|14| Deliver Touch Spells
19th-20th|+12|+12|+6|15| Scry on Companion
[/table]

Collin152
2008-04-21, 11:25 PM
Well, they... um...
Crude is right.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-22, 12:31 PM
The thing that's hard to put into the chart is just how many bloody options one gets from level 4 on. Your class features, at that point, are whatever can be done by the creatures you capture and the abilities of the templates that you add onto them. It's really deceptive.

Norr
2008-04-25, 08:27 AM
You could do something like the 'metamorphic transfer' feat, allowing you to use only a set number of your monsters abilities at any given level.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-25, 12:04 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about. :smallconfused:

Norr
2008-04-26, 04:46 AM
I think I misread your erlier post, ignore me :smallwink:

I'll se how the master class develops before I light another lightbulb.

Dallas-Dakota
2008-04-26, 06:44 AM
No... No... What have you done?

It is all ruined now! Why? Oh WHY?

Rule #152 : Pokemon and DnD should never ever be mixed.

Collin152
2008-04-26, 04:09 PM
No... No... What have you done?

It is all ruined now! Why? Oh WHY?

Rule #152 : Pokemon and DnD should never ever be mixed.

More like guidelines than actual rules.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-26, 07:37 PM
The current drafts of a couple SLAs, I'm still trying to find a good way to handle trading. :smallfurious: Catch has yet to be cleaned up mathwise. I'm wondering if the class should have an HP total tracking mechanic, or if that'd be broken when tag teamed with wizards.

The Familiarity bit controls a great many options of the class. You can only control creatures if you have Familiarity with all of it's Types and Subtypes. Creatures cannot be evolved to or from a Type or Subtype that you do not have Familiarity with either. So... if you do not have Dragon as a familiar Type, you cannot alter a creature with the half-dragon template.

Catch:
Casting Time: Instant
Range: Close (25 feet + 5 feet/2 class levels)
Area or Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous, permanent.
Saving Throw: no
Spell Resistance: no
Effect: Roll a d20. If the result equals (or is lower than) your class level +5, roll a d4. Multiply the result of this second roll by 25. If the total is higher than the percentage of the creature’s remaining hit points, it is captured. Creatures captured in this way are transported to your Index Crystal and are permanently bound to your direct control until you die or use the Release ability on them. While within an anti-magic field, you are denied all access to creatures within the Crystal (in addition, active Indexed creatures are recalled while you remain in the field). You may use Catch a number of times per day equal to your class level plus your Cha mod.

Choose: (Summoning)
Casting Time: Swift
Range: Close (25 feet + 5 feet/2 class levels)
Duration: Permanent (unless ended as a free action).
Saving Throw: Will save (DC 10 + class + Cha)
Spell Resistance: no
Effect: A creature is summoned from your belt.

Collin152
2008-04-26, 07:41 PM
I see.
So, early on, some types would be fairly usless to be familiar with, and later on, others becme useless?
Like, Dragon familiarity at low levels is a real waste, but Vermin familiarity is inferior to others at the apex of ones career?
Ignoring the augmentation of creatures, of course, with things falling out of usage.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-26, 07:49 PM
Correct-ish, I think. Level 1 is important because it determines what critter type becomes your companion. Personally, I like the idea of picking Animal and pimping out a cat ala Meowth. You keep all the Types and Subtypes you gain Familiarity with, so your list of usable critters contantly expands.

Collin152
2008-04-26, 08:14 PM
Correct-ish, I think. Level 1 is important because it determines what critter type becomes your companion. Personally, I like the idea of picking Animal and pimping out a cat ala Meowth. You keep all the Types and Subtypes you gain Familiarity with, so your list of usable critters contantly expands.

I see.
So, your starting bestest-buddy...
Limited by Challenge Rating? Hit Dice? Both?
I could totally see a cat, but my mind goes straight to Yoruichi from Bleach.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-26, 08:59 PM
A creature (who's Type you have Familiarity with) with a CR of 1 or lower can be selected as Companion. Your Companion's CR can never exceed your class level through the addition of templates or advancement. I can see the Bleach Cat too. However, it all gets borked up and wierd once you add the anthropomorphic template to the critter. :smalltongue:

Foeofthelance
2008-04-27, 06:50 PM
Too much math in the Catch ability. Might I suggest:

Catch-

Roll a D20. If the roll is equal to or less than your Character Level +5, the target must then make a will save against DC 10 + Your Level + Charisma. If it fails this save, then the creature has been captured and bound to your summoning crystal.

OR

Catch- Roll a D20 and add your character level. If that number is greater than the target's HD, the target must than make an opposing roll against you roll, adding its current HP as a modifier. If its roll is equal or less than your roll, it has been captured.

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-27, 06:56 PM
Foe: Yeah, the math is a bit obnoxious, I know. However, I'm trying to stay true to the source in terms of how the mechanic works. There has to be a way to run the math so that lowered hp plays a role in the whole thing.

Foeofthelance
2008-04-27, 08:12 PM
That's why I suggest the second variation. Less HP means less of a bonus to the save. I know there's a strong desire to stay as true to the source as possible, but do you also want to have to break out a calculator every time you want to use the ability your class is based on?

Hadrian_Emrys
2008-04-27, 08:24 PM
*sigh* True. I'm having a talk with my partner in this scheme to see what she thinks right now.