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Epinephrine
2008-04-10, 11:08 PM
I saw someone mention these in a post, saying that they end up killing their party. I'm in a group in which the barbarian plans to go Frenzied berserker, and I guess I'm looking for advice on how to stop/deal with him if he goes wacko. I'm getting the sense that this really isn't a very party-friendly profession choice, and may try to talk him out of it, but I know he wants the power it offers.

Non-lethal would be nice, but frankly I'll kill him him before I let him hurt people (me, specifically). Players tend to object if you *try* to kill them, but since he's trying to kill us I don't mind much. It's not like I'm good, either, I'm neutral. I don't have any objection to downing a rabid animal.

I'm playing a shapeshift variant Druid; it looks like he can pick up this class at 7th level or so? I'll have to ask him when he can get it, but assuming one has access to at most 4th level or so druid spells, what's the most effective back-pocket method of dealing with him? I was thinking (off the top of my head) of Blinding Spittle, and just saving it in case he goes nuts, since blinding him is a pretty good start, and I don't think he's allowed to stop to wash his eyes out. I'd rather set aside low-level spells for it if possible, since I don't really want to sacrifice my big guns just to keep a guy in line.

Since our party has 3 back/midliners (missile fire and a caster) I'm likely the nearest target when the last enemy drops, since I could be on the front lines in animal form. My AC is ok, but he's vicious already, and he only rages so far. I am somewhat concerned about how much damage he could do if he hits me. I can of course simply get away, as I'm faster than he is in animal form and can fly, and I ignore the woodland terrain (we so far are exclusively in the outdoors), but I don't think I'd abandon the team to him. If I can position myself nearest, but out of charge range (or with difficult terrain making a charge impossible) I might be able to lead him around till he snaps out of it?

Suggest away (obviously my #1 option is convince him that he doesn't want to become a hindrance; I have been playing a judge-type protector of the woods, so it would be out of character to deal with him before he steps out of line, but if he proves to be a danger I'll off him if I have to.)

Frosty
2008-04-10, 11:11 PM
Enchant the Fb's weapon with the Nonlethal enhancement, so it'll deal +1d6 (or was it 2d6) but the damage becomes non-lethal.

Ascension
2008-04-10, 11:11 PM
Calm emotions. Don't know if it's on the Druid list, but your other casters should at least have access to it.

Squidmaster
2008-04-10, 11:12 PM
Entangle could work, as could simply summoning weak creatures for him to kill (summon natures ally 1) A druid could do that since technically you aren't killing the animals, your just sending them back to where they came.

Erebus
2008-04-11, 12:23 AM
a) kill him while he sleeps (what?! it is an option!!!)
b) A good idea is to let him think of taking Endurance+Steadfast Determination Feats thus busting his will save thus giving him a greater chance of ending the frenzy by himself (think its 20 will or 15+rounds spend in frenzy or smthng similar)
c)what the other guys said
d)NIGERO (in japanese meaning run for it! :smalltongue:)

Reinboom
2008-04-11, 12:32 AM
Illusion spells.
Super pump his will saves.
Rest of party having high hide/move silently / rings of invisibility, etc.
Battle Hymn + Pump his will saves.

Nebo_
2008-04-11, 01:58 AM
A cleric dip with the Pride Domain. There's a build on the WotC boards called the Friendly Berserker that almost never fails the will save.

lord_khaine
2008-04-11, 03:30 AM
you could explain to him that if he ever turns against the party because of frenzy, then you will leave him, and that he should avoid taking FB level unless he wants to reroll after the first time he fails his will save.

this actualy makes even more sense IC, sense i cant imagine anyone who would travel with someone so mad they might turn against their allies in battle.

Kizara
2008-04-11, 03:39 AM
Calm Emoitions = Easy off switch. Somebody has to have it.

He could take Leadership and grab a cleric cohort if you don't have one in the party.

Alternately, do the PoF build with a good charisma for an easy high will save.

PoF 3/hex 3/fight 2/FB 10 etc.

Ramos
2008-04-11, 04:39 AM
Levitate.
It is a ranged spell that makes a meeler totally useless.

senrath
2008-04-11, 05:42 AM
Levitate.
It is a ranged spell that makes a meeler totally useless.

Levitate requires a willing target.

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-11, 05:58 AM
Levitate requires a willing target.

I will try to kill the party to the best of my ability =/= I will not accept "buffs" from the party.

Since Sense Motive requires concentration and is impossible to perform during a rage, an untrained bluff check automatically succeeds and the barbarian willingly accepts the Levitate, thinking it's a buff.

Epinephrine
2008-04-11, 06:36 AM
Thanks, the Calm Emotions will fit on our Cleric-type's bar nicely, and I suspect I can keep him busy for a round or two easily enough, as long as we show some sense and we try to let him drop the last target, so that we all hopefully have a round before he can attack us. I'm so glad he doesn't have woodland stride, I can just position myself across difficult terrain, but closer than the party is.

I somewhat agree that you'd have to be mad to travel with someone who is a real risk, but we've been adventuring together and been through a bunch. I'd say it's not in character to leave because of a choice on class since we can only judge him based on his actions, but the first time he turns on the party we can have a serious discussion about whether he's now a liability. "He always raged in combat, but it's worse now - he seems stronger, deadlier, but he can't tell friend from foe." Yeah, I think the best option is to try to talk him out of the option, but we're all friends too, and if he wants to try it we'll let him, and just have to deal with it in character.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-11, 06:47 AM
get a wand of grease, the wiz stands at the back and since the fights over they don't have anything else to do. The barb can still voluntarily fall on his arse.:smallbiggrin:

lord_khaine
2008-04-11, 07:08 AM
I will try to kill the party to the best of my ability =/= I will not accept "buffs" from the party.

Since Sense Motive requires concentration and is impossible to perform during a rage, an untrained bluff check automatically succeeds and the barbarian willingly accepts the Levitate, thinking it's a buff.

but if he is trying to kill the party to the best of his ability then he wont belive its a buff, and actively resist whatevers cast on him.

that part about no use of sense motive is just silly, if it were true you would not even have to bother with the levitate spell, all you had to do is to tell him you were a illusion, and that the real person was disguised as that tree over there.


get a wand of grease, the wiz stands at the back and since the fights over they don't have anything else to do. The barb can still voluntarily fall on his arse.
no the barbarian can not fail his save on purpose, since he is trying to kill people at the best of his ability.
and all it takes is a failed save and a barbarian with a action before said wizard, to reduce the number of wizards in the world by 1.

TK-Squared
2008-04-11, 07:15 AM
Frenzied Berskers cannot make Dex based skills. Grease will cause them to fall on their arse anyway.

Darrin
2008-04-11, 08:12 AM
get a wand of grease, the wiz stands at the back and since the fights over they don't have anything else to do. The barb can still voluntarily fall on his arse.:smallbiggrin:

Grease is usually the preferred method of shutting down a FB, because it requires a Balance check, which is Dex-based and the FB auto-fails.

Unfortunately, Druids don't get grease. You might want to consider the Flash Frost feat, however (PHB2). It creates a thin layer of ice requiring a Balance check, effectively turning any [cold] spell into grease. However, it increases the spell level by 1, and I don't see any low-level [cold] spells for druids with an area... You could combine it with Eschew Materials + Snowcasting, which would make Entangle pretty nasty, but that would take three feats.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-11, 08:18 AM
They have 2 casters in the back of the party. Have one of them drop the Grease.

Lucyfur
2008-04-11, 08:47 AM
You really have to plan out a FB character if you want to play it successfully. The party has to be prepared for it.

Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (MiC) give a +4 insight bonus to Will saves.
Along with a Cloak of resistance and Steadfast Determination, you can reliably make that DC 20 Will save to end the Frenzy.

lord_khaine
2008-04-11, 08:54 AM
They have 2 casters in the back of the party. Have one of them drop the Grease

so in other words one of the casters have to waste his time during battle waiting to cast grease, and the the druid cant get within melee range of him.


Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (MiC) give a +4 insight bonus to Will saves.
Along with a Cloak of resistance and Steadfast Determination, you can reliably make that DC 20 Will save to end the Frenzy.

the problem is then that when he actualy do fail his ave then its so much harder to stop him chopping the party down.

Person_Man
2008-04-11, 08:55 AM
The main downside of the FB is not that you will kill your fellow party members. You can get around this with Steadfast Determination and a Merciful weapon. The downside is that it's nearly impossible to conserve your Frenzy uses for when you really need them. Every time you take any damage from any source, you must make a Will Save = 10 + cumulative damage taken since your last action. So you will almost never have a Frenzy use available for a BBEG fight, which is when you really need them.

Also, its pretty much required that you have a Cleric in your party with Reach Spell metamagic, so that he can stand back and heal or Calm Emotions you as needed. If someone in your party doesn't want to do this, I'd skip FB.

ChaosDefender24
2008-04-11, 06:10 PM
Warblade levels --> Iron heart surge

Collin152
2008-04-11, 06:43 PM
Cast Levitate before he Frenzies, but don't lift him.
At first.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-04-11, 09:24 PM
No matter how big and bad your will save is, you'll always fail it on a natural one. So every FB has a one in twenty chance of going ape all over the party, at a minimum. And if it has focused on bringing up the Will save, it will be very hard to land a Calm Emotions or similar will-save-dependent spell. Honestly, your best bet would be something like Resilient Sphere, which takes advantage of the poor Reflex save, doesn't kill it, but doesn't let it kill the party.

However, I always tell people: Just Say No to FB. It just isn't worth the risk. It really doesn't give you all that much more, and setting up your party for a TPK when you do go crazy all over them is just not cool.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-11, 10:24 PM
No matter how big and bad your will save is, you'll always fail it on a natural one.

Unless you, you know, take Steadfast Determination. Which in addition to almost certainly raising your will save, also makes it so that you no longer fail on a one.

Chronos
2008-04-11, 10:47 PM
It makes it so you don't fail fortitude saves on a natural 1. It doesn't do anything for a natural 1 on a Will save. At least, not if the version on dandello (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Steadfast_Determination,all) is correct.

playswithfire
2008-04-11, 10:53 PM
It makes it so you don't fail fortitude saves on a natural 1. It doesn't do anything for a natural 1 on a Will save. At least, not if the version on dandello (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Steadfast_Determination,all) is correct.

That is indeed what players handbook ii says for that feat

FlyMolo
2008-04-12, 12:12 AM
You all pitch in and buy a wand of calm emotions, or grease, or a dorje of mind lock.

A brain lock pearl for a last ditch attempt is always good.

Talic
2008-04-12, 12:59 AM
Level 1 spell. Obscuring mist. Add Level 2 spell, silence. If he doesn't see or hear any enemies, he doesn't have to do anything. It takes a bit of work, and the other player has to choose to do that, but it gives him an excuse to stand there, pissed off, until the rage expires.

Frosty
2008-04-12, 01:34 AM
The FB should take Indomitable Soul. He gets to roll TWICE and take the better result. Might not work by RAW, but I think a DM would allow it.

lord_khaine
2008-04-12, 04:05 AM
Warblade levels --> Iron heart surge

the reason why this does not work is that it requires a action to activate, and the FB is using all of those to try and kill people.


The FB should take Indomitable Soul. He gets to roll TWICE and take the better result. Might not work by RAW, but I think a DM would allow it.
if it does not work by raw, then why should the gm allow it?

Epinephrine
2008-04-12, 07:43 AM
if it does not work by raw, then why should the gm allow it?

There are many reasons to house rule things. For example, by RAW, a Scout's Flawless Stride or a Wildrunner's Unfettered Stride (both of which are essentially more versatile versions of Woodland Stride) doesn't allow passage through a Briar Web, which specifically states that players with Woodland Stride can pass through it.

I don't think that removing the penalties of an FB should be easy though. Obscuring Mist should not work, for example; he still should charge around trying to kill them, even if he can't see/hear them. He probably wouldn't succeed, but he'd be trying.

Chronos
2008-04-12, 12:40 PM
Keep in mind, too, that if your Frenzied Berzerker leaves some exploitable weakness to allow the party to shut him down, the enemies can exploit that same weakness. And something like Grease is common enough that he's likely to get hit with it anyway, even if the enemy doesn't know about his specific vulnerability.

GrandMasterMe
2008-04-12, 03:31 PM
There is but one solution to your problem, you must kill him. Preferably in his sleep. And as far as being a druid, what better way is there to destroy nature than by killing everything in your path indiscriminately (AKA levels in FB). No the best thing for everyone is for you to slit his throat while he sleeps...and then bathe in his blood...if it suits you:smallamused:

GrandMasterMe
2008-04-12, 03:42 PM
There is but one solution to your problem, you must kill him. Preferably in his sleep. And as far as being a druid, what better way is there to destroy nature than by killing everything in your path indiscriminately (AKA levels in FB). No the best thing for everyone is for you to slit his throat while he sleeps...and then bathe in his blood...if it suits you:smallamused:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-12, 04:35 PM
Keep in mind, too, that if your Frenzied Berzerker leaves some exploitable weakness to allow the party to shut him down, the enemies can exploit that same weakness. And something like Grease is common enough that he's likely to get hit with it anyway, even if the enemy doesn't know about his specific vulnerability.

True, but that has nothing to do with the problem of the Frenzied Berserker killing the party. Lots of characters have weaknesses. Most of them are pretty exploitable. The fact that the Frenzy prevents balance checks makes it very easy to guarantee the safety of the party. That it is a weakness to be exploited by enemies is just a compensating factor for the benefits of Frenzy (which can be pretty useful as long as nobody drops a grease on you until after you've dealt with the enemies.)

mostlyharmful
2008-04-12, 04:37 PM
There is but one solution to your problem, you must kill him. Preferably in his sleep. And as far as being a druid, what better way is there to destroy nature than by killing everything in your path indiscriminately (AKA levels in FB). No the best thing for everyone is for you to slit his throat while he sleeps...and then bathe in his blood...if it suits you:smallamused:

I find it mildly unsettling that for the most part I agree with this analysis of best responses to both having an FB onside and in portraying Nature "Red in Tooth'n'Claw":smallredface: :smalleek:

Epinephrine
2008-04-12, 05:29 PM
...and then bathe in his blood...if it suits you:smallamused:

Eww... do you know how hard it is to get blood out of your ears? Q-tips just don't do it. I've had a talk with the DM, and he's going to suggest that perhaps Wildrunner or something might fit the party better and be a more tempting route for an elven barbarian.

mostlyharmful
2008-04-12, 05:32 PM
Eww... do you know how hard it is to get blood out of your ears? Q-tips just don't do it. I've had a talk with the DM, and he's going to suggest that perhaps Wildrunner or something might fit the party better and be a more tempting route for an elven barbarian.

Try a modified nasal spray bottle, fill it with hot soapy salt water. Cuts through blood and ear wax fast as you like.. Also gets out red wine stains.:smallwink: :smallbiggrin:

hamishspence
2008-04-12, 05:43 PM
Star Munchkin had a Super Soldier feat: frenzied berserker on steroids :smallbiggrin:

You have been subjected to highly irresponsible scientific experiments designed to engineer a better class of mindless killing machine. You practically sweat super soldier serum.

Prerequisite: Fortitude base save bonus +4, base attack bonus +5, no particular fondness for your fellow PCs.

Benefit: At will, as a standard action, you can cause your testosterone and adrenaline levels to freak out, temporarily sending you into a frenzy of destruction . During your frenzy, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom. The frenzy lasts a number of rounds equal to your enhanced Constitution modifier, and you cannot end it voluntarily. The frenzy does have a few unfortunate side effects. These include symptoms of hair loss, back acne, and -oh yeah- blind rage forcing you to always attack the closest creature, be it friend or foe, and to never retreat from combat. In addition, whenever you take damage, you must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage taken) or fly into a frenzy on your next turn. After a frenzy ends, you are fatigued for 1d4 minutes and cannot frenzy again during that time.

GrandMasterMe
2008-04-12, 06:01 PM
Although now that i think about it if say a 15th level wizard with a contingent for tensures transformation and another for nightstalkers transformation to activate on the completion of the spell bite of the werewolf, cast all the other bite spells and then cast bite of the werewolf you will be able to put that FB to shame with a new
Str+28
Con+28
Dex+24
Natural Armor+30
and AC +3
with no armor on you will have a culmulitive +40 to your AC and a fairly nice bite attack, all for the price of 4 6th lvl spells and a 3rd through 7th lvl spell
oh and you cant forget that you get the blind fight feat and the power attack feat. and 3d6 sneak attack(yay)
after you have done all this you will have 10 more rounds to kill your FB, granted you will have to figure out how to get through 5 rounds with a crazy FB trying to kill everything, but hey i told you to just kill him before he took the levels. but did you listen to me? Nooooo everyone ignores the Fb till its too late!! you should have just killed him from the getgo!!!

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-12, 06:27 PM
Star Munchkin had a Super Soldier feat: frenzied berserker on steroids :smallbiggrin:

You have been subjected to highly irresponsible scientific experiments designed to engineer a better class of mindless killing machine. You practically sweat super soldier serum.

Prerequisite: Fortitude base save bonus +4, base attack bonus +5, no particular fondness for your fellow PCs.

Benefit: At will, as a standard action, you can cause your testosterone and adrenaline levels to freak out, temporarily sending you into a frenzy of destruction . During your frenzy, you gain a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom. The frenzy lasts a number of rounds equal to your enhanced Constitution modifier, and you cannot end it voluntarily. The frenzy does have a few unfortunate side effects. These include symptoms of hair loss, back acne, and -oh yeah- blind rage forcing you to always attack the closest creature, be it friend or foe, and to never retreat from combat. In addition, whenever you take damage, you must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage taken) or fly into a frenzy on your next turn. After a frenzy ends, you are fatigued for 1d4 minutes and cannot frenzy again during that time.

That feat seems in every way inferior to Frenzied Bersker, since it goes without all the combat benefits, and provides an easily obtainable non-stacking bonus that will be obsolete after about level 10.

Chronos
2008-04-12, 07:16 PM
Note also that that feat requires a standard action to activate.

Round 1:
Barbarian: I activate my frenzy of destruction.
Wizard: I cast Finger of Death on the monster
DM (rolls): The monster dies.
Round 2:
Barbarian: Oops...

DMfromTheAbyss
2008-04-12, 08:03 PM
Hate to bring it up but there's a feat in the Book of Exalted deeds that lets you keep control of yourself while in rage. Though that would mean you'd need to have an exalted Frenzied Berserker... which would be quite the roleplaying challenge.

"OK Thag now be nice to the lil children and give to charity regularly or we won't let you be a maniacal killing machine."

lord_khaine
2008-04-13, 03:11 AM
yeah, but i dont think that feat works on frenzy.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 03:32 AM
I would guess that it does since there is a specific build called the Exhaulted Berserker somewhere on Char-Op.

Grynning
2008-04-13, 03:59 AM
Here's the thing about Righteous Wrath (the feat from BoED). It "allows" you to distinguish friend from foe, deal nonlethal damage, and show mercy while in a rage.
Rage does not keep you from doing any of those things normally .
From the SRD:
Rage (Ex)

A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarianís hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the characterís (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, canít charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies).

So, either Righteous Wrath is a completely useless feat that is only good for entering the Champion of Gwynarwyf PrC (which is actually not a bad PrC) or it works with Frenzy, since Frenzy DOES explicitly keep you from distinguishing friend from foe and showing mercy. It's still a DM call, but it would make a lot more sense for that feat to actually do something.

lord_khaine
2008-04-13, 05:08 AM
well Righteous Wrath only mention rage, and Champion of Gwynarwyf is good enough to require the waste of a couple of feats for entry.

Ossian
2008-04-13, 05:22 AM
Cast "Improved Playboy June Centerfold" on him, open....

[brd, 0, conj]

hamishspence
2008-04-13, 08:44 AM
you know a power's a little nasty when Munchkin equivalent looks weak next to it.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-13, 10:41 AM
you know a power's a little nasty when Munchkin equivalent looks weak next to it.

This is regards to what? Your custom "Munchkin" feat? It certainly fits the connotation that Munchkins don't understand any of the actual rules, seeing as it thinks adding an enhancement bonus is actually worth anything.

Arbitrarity
2008-04-13, 10:48 AM
Although now that i think about it if say a 15th level wizard with a contingent for tensures transformation and another for nightstalkers transformation to activate on the completion of the spell bite of the werewolf, cast all the other bite spells and then cast bite of the werewolf you will be able to put that FB to shame with a new
Str+28
Con+28
Dex+24
Natural Armor+30
and AC +3
with no armor on you will have a culmulitive +40 to your AC and a fairly nice bite attack, all for the price of 4 6th lvl spells and a 3rd through 7th lvl spell
oh and you cant forget that you get the blind fight feat and the power attack feat. and 3d6 sneak attack(yay)
after you have done all this you will have 10 more rounds to kill your FB, granted you will have to figure out how to get through 5 rounds with a crazy FB trying to kill everything, but hey i told you to just kill him before he took the levels. but did you listen to me? Nooooo everyone ignores the Fb till its too late!! you should have just killed him from the getgo!!!

I believe those don't stack. Bite, Tenser's, and Nightstalkers are all enhancement bonuses, making them rather weak in conjunction.
Now, an orc barbarian with Eye of Gruumsh, FB, and reckless rage, from RoS, gets a shiny +20 to strength, and +6 to con, while in full rage. -10 to AC hurts, however.

Also, you can only have 1 contingent spell, unless you used craft contingent spell, which is the cheese.

Also, our group sees more Frenzied berserkers than most other PrC's. It's rather odd. My opinion is that it's a trade off. You give yourself some wholly crippling, easily exploitable weaknesses, which is never a good thing for optimization, and in return, get the ability to become a melee MONSTER. The odd thing is, similar to the wizard's spellbook, the DM only exploits those weaknesses rarely, as it's crippling otherwise. Lack of control over frenzy can be deadly, unless you have extra rage or somesuch.

The problem is, however, your weaknesses cannot be padded at minimal cost, unlike the wizard's spellbook. While the wizard can do silly stuff like Secret Page, you have no such option. You can't hide your frenzy in 12 different places, nor protect it, so you're left with glaring, unfixable weaknesses. And that's bad.

(Grease, loss of frenzy, any skill check or lose. Sniping, extended combats, etc.)

Chronos
2008-04-13, 11:04 AM
This is regards to what? Your custom "Munchkin" feat?It's not a custom feat; it's an actual feat from the published game "Munchkin". Which game is, as you might imagine, deliberately overpowered compared to D&D in most ways.

Thordog81
2008-05-17, 07:48 PM
Iron Heart Surge does work as there is nothing in the description of frenzy that says you no longer distinguish friend from foe. You do know who your friends are and just cannot stop yourself. It just says "must continue to attack to the best of her ability" which does not rule out removing all harmful effects from your character with IHS.

If your gm has a house rule this does not work then i would say the normal brainlock / grease / holdperson ect... should work fine.

FMArthur
2008-05-17, 08:27 PM
This is over a month old. I don't think a solution at this time matters anymore.

Crow
2008-05-17, 08:39 PM
If all else fails, you could cast Sleet Storm.

Cuddly
2008-05-17, 09:10 PM
Or Raise Dead.

On this thread.