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Saihyol
2008-04-18, 12:21 PM
Anyone know a DM who would actually let you play this?

The Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b)

RTGoodman
2008-04-18, 12:30 PM
Sure. It's a pretty neat class, though like many "Jack-of-all-Trades" classes, it's not always the most powerful.

Of course, a quick search on this site or the Wizards CharOp boards (probably) will confirm that it can be used in all manner of optimized ways, though I'm not that familiar with them.

Frosty
2008-04-18, 12:33 PM
I'm a DM. I would. It's very fun, and the rp opportunities are endless. In fact, I'm making an evil BBEG right now who is a Changeling Factotum/Chameleon who leads a group of adventurers. He's so good at hiding his nature, one of the group is a Paladin of Heironeous who is unwittingly furthering the schemes of evil as he works with the BBEG.

SoD
2008-04-18, 12:35 PM
I remember eavesdropping on a friends conversation back in my early days of DnD (read last year), where, using this build in conjunction with the factotom, as a doppleganger, and a few other bits and peices allowed them to do this:

''OK, I turn into a dwarven ninja and tumble to the other side of the ogre, that's +4 racial to AC if I fail the check, OK, now I turn into an orcish barbarian and bash the ogre with my greataxe, it's dead? OK, now I turn into a halfling rogue with maxed out search and search for treasure.''

Can't remember how, I wasn't sure of the terminology back then, and I was drifting in and out of the conversation, but that was the gist of it.

Frosty
2008-04-18, 12:41 PM
I love the flavor text at the beginning of the class description: "Someone called for a cleric? Oh, you needed a fighter instead? I'm sorry -- I meant to say that the cleric is on his way. I'm the fighter."

Person_Man
2008-04-18, 01:00 PM
Yeah, its a pretty standard Jack of All Trades Class.

It's very useful and potent when played correctly. But note:


It never gets spells above 6th level.
That its class abilities can't be used to qualify for other prestige classes.
Mimic Class Feature is limited to 1-3 times per day.
That its somewhat impractical to change Aptitude Focus when you're in dungeon or other hostile location where enemies might attack you.

Frosty
2008-04-18, 01:04 PM
10 minutes to switch Focus isn't *that* bad...

Person_Man
2008-04-18, 01:33 PM
10 minutes to switch Focus isn't *that* bad...

I agree.

But its an hour until they get to ECL 13-ish. And an hour or 10 minutes is long enough that a DM can prevent Refocusing abuse by adding in a "beat the clock" aspect to the story line ("if we don't find the Princess by midnight, she dies!!!), or by just throwing combat encounters at the party in a rapid succession. ("After killing the guards, you hear an alarm bell clanging through the hallways. You get the idea that if you don't get through the troubles in this dungeon quickly, trouble will be coming to find you.")

Frosty
2008-04-18, 01:38 PM
Well sure. There's always the time thing, but it doesn't happen every time. If you have the time, you can always Rope Trick to keep yourself safe.

Chronos
2008-04-18, 02:41 PM
Changing Aptitude Focus isn't all that big a deal anyway, since in practice, you're probably going to usually keep it on one or both of the spellcasting ones.

And spellcasting like a Mystic Theurge of the same level (better, actually, since you can cherry-pick spells from any list) is nice, but where the class really lets you be creative is that bonus feat. There are all sorts of neat tricks you can pull with that.

If you have a caster level from any other class, you can pick up item creation feats for long enough to make almost anything you want during downtime. If Incarnum is allowed in your game, you can shape a soulmeld for every one of your body slots, one at a time, which persist after you change the feat. You can learn any skill at all on a day's notice, by using your feat on Open Minded. And that's not even counting the things you can do to boost your base class: If you're a wizard or full-list spontaneous caster (Beguiler, etc.), you can pick up Arcane Disciple to add a bunch of spells to your list. If you're a spells known caster like a sorcerer, you can use it on Extra Spell to get that one spell you specifically need today, and if you use a spellbook, you can add spells to it cheaply the same way. If you're a warlock, you can take Extra Invocation, and change it every day, and if you're a psionic character, Expanded Knowledge, for the same reason. If you're a cleric, Customize Domain for nearly as much flexibility as Arcane Disciple gives a wizard.

Frosty
2008-04-18, 03:12 PM
Can a Chameleon do something like this: He enters divine focus and memorizes spells at sunrise. He casts all of his divine spells suring the day. Later in the day, he changes focus and prepares arcane spells. He then has his full arcane slots as well for casting.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-18, 03:23 PM
Can a Chameleon do something like this: He enters divine focus and memorizes spells at sunrise. He casts all of his divine spells suring the day. Later in the day, he changes focus and prepares arcane spells. He then has his full arcane slots as well for casting.

1) Yes, easily.
2) One common tactic is to start Divine, cast a series of long duration buffs on yourself and everyone else, then go Arcane for actual combat.

Of course it just gets better when you get double, since you can be both, or use Divine to buff, then go Arcane/Martial.

Frosty
2008-04-18, 03:24 PM
Going Martial eh? But you can't wear armor while arcane focused right?

Jack_Simth
2008-04-18, 03:39 PM
Going Martial eh? But you can't wear armor while arcane focused right?

You can wear it, but you suffer from Arcane Spell Failure.

streakster
2008-04-18, 03:45 PM
It isn't that powerful, but it's got versatility to die for. Goes great with Factotum, as has been said.

Frosty
2008-04-18, 03:50 PM
You can wear it, but you suffer from Arcane Spell Failure.

Correct, which is bad. I guess you can wear a mithril chain shirt of twilight-ness though...

Reel On, Love
2008-04-18, 04:30 PM
I've played several Chameleons. My favorite Chameleon build is Rogue 1/Soulknife 2/Swordsage 2/Soulbow 1/Chameleon from there. Take Able Learner at first level, Zen Archery at third. WIS to AB (Zen Archery), AC (Swordsage 2), damage (Soulbow) and spellcasting (Chameleon's divine focus).
You'll want to be using Fractional BAB, though.

High CL when you're enough levels into Chameleon, tons of buffs from any list (so at their lowest levels)... including Owl's Insight, which boosts your WIS even further... skills, versatility...

Frosty
2008-04-18, 04:58 PM
How well would straight Factotum work though as entry class into Chameleon? Would it synergize enough? I'm trying to make a cool BBEG.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-18, 05:10 PM
How well would straight Factotum work though as entry class into Chameleon? Would it synergize enough? I'm trying to make a cool BBEG.

Factotum is a good entry. Take Able Learner. Factotum 3/Swordsage 2 is better in melee, but Factotum 5 has more Factotum abilities.

The optimal split is either Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/X 2, or Factotum 11/Chameleon 9. At 8, Factotum gets Cunning Surge, which is brutal combined with Font of Inspiration; at 11, they can spend 1 SP to ignore SR and DR, which is great.

Factotums also have a kind of half-assed casting, so I think they technically qualify for various feats that require arcane spellcasting, a caster level. Snag any crafting feat you want with Chameleon 2's floating feat for the days you need it.

You can also use Chameleon 2 to fill the arcane spellbook for free--just take Extra Spell, write it down, take Extra Spell for a different spell the next day, etc.

Frosty
2008-04-18, 05:13 PM
What level can Factotum get extra standard actions?

Reel On, Love
2008-04-18, 05:14 PM
What level can Factotum get extra standard actions?

That's Cunning Surge, which you get at Factotum 8.

UserClone
2008-04-18, 05:17 PM
They can't be used that way; they are SLAs, not spells. Read the flavor text as well.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-18, 05:18 PM
They can't be used that way; they are SLAs, not spells. Read the flavor text as well.

They are spells that are cast as SLAs. They're an unholy hybrid of SLAs and spells. The Factotum does have a caster level, and he does prepare arcane spells--he just casts them as Spell-Like Abilities.

Mark Hall
2008-04-18, 08:53 PM
And I'll mention the great usefulness of the two-level dip into Chameleon for a Warlock... the assign-it-by-day feat is incredibly useful for a Warlock to change his invocations, or pick up an item crafting feat for a day.

Riffington
2008-04-19, 08:04 AM
You can also use Chameleon 2 to fill the arcane spellbook for free--just take Extra Spell, write it down, take Extra Spell for a different spell the next day, etc.

A DM would be about as likely to allow this as to allow you to build a profitable factory that turns ladders into 10' poles...

Thrawn183
2008-04-19, 08:20 AM
I got to play a Ninja/Ranger/Swordsage/Chameleon. The campaign was level 1-6 so I didn't get any of the higher level Chameleon abilites, but man was it a fun character to play!

Chronos
2008-04-19, 11:31 AM
A DM would be about as likely to allow this as to allow you to build a profitable factory that turns ladders into 10' poles...A DM who doesn't allow that trick oughtn't to allow the Chameleon class in the first place. A Chameleon casts arcane spells from any class's arcane spell list, using a spellbook. How is a chameleon supposed to get Cure Light Wounds into a spellbook, if not via Extra Spell? It's not like you can just copy it from another spellbook, since wizards (who have books) can't cast CLW, and bards (who can cast it) don't have books.

I will readily admit, though, that most feats are written under the assumption that you can't change them, and that being able to change a feat every day can certainly create some weird situations that you really need to discuss with your DM.

Rad
2008-04-19, 12:17 PM
A DM who doesn't allow that trick oughtn't to allow the Chameleon class in the first place. A Chameleon casts arcane spells from any class's arcane spell list, using a spellbook. How is a chameleon supposed to get Cure Light Wounds into a spellbook, if not via Extra Spell? It's not like you can just copy it from another spellbook, since wizards (who have books) can't cast CLW, and bards (who can cast it) don't have books.

Bards with Scribe scroll and wizards with Divine Disciple.
Honestly, I am a DM and I would never make that trick fly. If you change your feat I would be sure that you are not keeping any abilities from it. Assume that you cannot understand that spell until you refocus that way for instance.

Pirate_King
2008-04-19, 01:08 PM
hey, since wizards can copy spells from a scroll into their book, would a wizard be able to copy a bard's scroll? if that's a stupid question, it's because it just never really occurred to me and I can't remember all the rules about scrolls and books.

anyway, in terms of a chameleon's arcane spells, as a DM I'd make the player use the same spell list, instead of letting them change it any time the character changed to arcane focus. they'd have access to a bunch of different kinds of spells through a sort of cut and paste spell book of things they've acquired in their adventures or from the school, but they wouldn't have access to every spell they can possibly cast. This could be redundant, but I can't find the book chameleon is in... help?

JaxGaret
2008-04-19, 01:10 PM
The Chameleon2/Spellbook inscription trick won't work anyway, because the spell is no longer on your spell list when you change the feat. It doesn't matter that it's in your spellbook, you can't prepare it.

The same goes for if you found a spellbook full of Bard spells inscribed as Wizard spells - unless your Wizard has those Bard spells on their spell list, they're not going to be able to prepare them just because they're in a spellbook.

Chronos
2008-04-19, 01:12 PM
This could be redundant, but I can't find the book chameleon is in... help?Races of Destiny, or you can just get it for free online (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b).

And they don't change their spell list every day; it's just that their spell list always includes the spell list of every other caster in the game. Which means that they really don't need to change it.

EDIT:
The Chameleon2/Spellbook inscription trick won't work anyway, because the spell is no longer on your spell list when you change the feat. It doesn't matter that it's in your spellbook, you can't prepare it.If the spell isn't on your spell list, you can't use the Extra Spell feat to begin with. A wizard/chameleon would use it to get a wizard spell he can't find in any book, not for a bard spell. But for the chameleon's own spellcasting, all arcane spells are fair game, as stated in the class description, and if it's in the chameleon's book, he can cast it as a chameleon, no matter how it got there.

Pirate_King
2008-04-19, 01:31 PM
I know it's online, I've just got a bunch of books on pdf, and I'm thinking of using one as an enemy in my next campaign and I couldn't remember which book to reference.

And their spell list might include every spell, but their spells known is something I'd house rule. The entry mentions stolen or borrowed spell books, and I have this image of a spell book with some pages larger than others, because those pages are just scrolls pasted in, or pages torn out of other books. I know it's not in the rules and might even make the chameleon less optimized if I create that limit, but I think it makes more sense in terms of role-playing.

@JaxGaret,


The same goes for if you found a spellbook full of Bard spells inscribed as Wizard spells - unless your Wizard has those Bard spells as spells known, they're not going to be able to prepare them just because they're in a spellbook.

Wouldn't a wizard copying a bard scroll into their book count as adding to spells known?


A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. PH continues with rules for checks and things to add a spell from a scroll, but doesn't explicitly say the scroll has to be a wizard's scroll.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 01:32 PM
The Chameleon2/Spellbook inscription trick won't work anyway, because the spell is no longer on your spell list when you change the feat. It doesn't matter that it's in your spellbook, you can't prepare it.

Their spell list is every single spell in the game. How does it stop being on their spell list? They don't have spells known, they have a book. If their book contains a spell that is on their class list, they can prepare it. That's it. Since any spell they write in their book is on their class list, they can prepare it.


The same goes for if you found a spellbook full of Bard spells inscribed as Wizard spells - unless your Wizard has those Bard spells as spells known, they're not going to be able to prepare them just because they're in a spellbook.

Wizard's don't have spells known. They have spells on the Wizard list. Any spell that is on the Wizard spell list that is in a spellbook can be prepared by a Wizard.

Where this becomes an issue is if you kill and loot the Spellbook of a Wizard who had Arcane Disciple X. Now you have Wizard spells in a spellbook that you should be able to prepare. Except that this gives you the benefit of a feat without taking it. So most DMs don't allow it. However the rules are very clear that a Wizard can prepare any spell on the main Wizard spell list as long as he can see it in a spellbook.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-19, 01:36 PM
Bards with Scribe scroll and wizards with Divine Disciple.
Honestly, I am a DM and I would never make that trick fly. If you change your feat I would be sure that you are not keeping any abilities from it. Assume that you cannot understand that spell until you refocus that way for instance.

Why not?

Are you saying that if I take Extra Spell(Fly) and make a scroll of Fly as a Chameleon, the scroll will no longer work? Even though anyone should be able to read it?

How is this different? (And what stops me from making a scroll, and then copying the scroll[I] into my spellbook?)


The Chameleon2/Spellbook inscription trick won't work anyway, because the spell is no longer on your spell list when you change the feat. It doesn't matter that it's in your spellbook, you can't prepare it.


You've got it wrong. Extra Spell adds a spell [I]from your spell list to your spells known. The spell remains on your spell list. Why can't you re-learn it from your spellbook or from a scroll once you forget it by changing the feat?




A DM would be about as likely to allow this as to allow you to build a profitable factory that turns ladders into 10' poles...
Except that gives you unlimited money. This just lets you actually cast more than a few spells. The alternative is teleporting around to every Bard, Trapsmith, etc until you find ones with Scribe Scroll.
All this gets you is the spells known you want, not free money. Extra Spell is just a way to know spells from different spell lists for your arcane casting.

Well, I guess it saves you money compared to going to a Warlock or Artificer and paying him for a dozen scrolls. But it's not even a lot of money--it's just the convenience factor.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 01:37 PM
And their spell list might include every spell, but their spells known is something I'd house rule.

Chameleons, like all spellbook based casters have no spells known.

Archivists/Wizards/Chameleons/ect. do not have spells known.

All they have to do is look at a copy of the spell to prepare it.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-19, 01:41 PM
I will readily admit, though, that most feats are written under the assumption that you can't change them, and that being able to change a feat every day can certainly create some weird situations that you really need to discuss with your DM.

Aberrant Blood? "Hm... I think I'd like a tail today!"

(Yes, I am aware that Aberrant Blood is a poor use of your floating feat.)

Pirate_King
2008-04-19, 01:41 PM
Chameleons, like all spellbook based casters have no spells known.

Archivists/Wizards/Chameleons/ect. do not have spells known.

All they have to do is look at a copy of the spell to prepare it.

I know, but they still have to have access to a copy of that spell. I'd require a chameleon player to have a list of spells they have in their book with the character sheet, however extensive the classes' access to spells might be. If there were another spellbook based caster in the party, they'd potentially have access to those spells, too, if they got their hands on the book for a long enough period of time. I'm just trying to keep a chameleon from pulling the spells out of no where anytime they took arcane focus. The entry on chameleons even references the player to pg 178 of the PHB for rules on borrowed spellbooks.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-19, 01:52 PM
Their spell list is every single spell in the game. How does it stop being on their spell list? They don't have spells known, they have a book. If their book contains a spell that is on their class list, they can prepare it. That's it. Since any spell they write in their book is on their class list, they can prepare it.

Hate to split hairs, but no, they don't have any spells on their class list. What they have is the ability to prepare and cast spells from other class's spell lists.


Wizard's don't have spells known. They have spells on the Wizard list. Any spell that is on the Wizard spell list that is in a spellbook can be prepared by a Wizard.

There's actually a distinction for Wizards on what spells they do and do not know. Spells from a borrowed spellbook (ones they don't know) require a Spellcraft check. Ones they've put into their own spellbook don't (they know them).

Or do you require that a Wizard taking a PrC that says "must know" in regards to some spell or some level of spells take Spell Mastery?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 01:55 PM
I know, but they still have to have access to a copy of that spell. I'd require a chameleon player to have a list of spells they have in their book with the character sheet, however extensive the classes' access to spells might be. If there were another spellbook based caster in the party, they'd potentially have access to those spells, too, if they got their hands on the book for a long enough period of time. I'm just trying to keep a chameleon from pulling the spells out of no where anytime they took arcane focus. The entry on chameleons even references the player to pg 178 of the PHB for rules on borrowed spellbooks.

And this is precisely my point. When they use the floating feat to get Extra spell, they can then add that spell to their spellbook. And once they have done so, it is in their spellbook for all eternity. So the floating feat allows Chameleons to have any spell they want in their spellbook.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 01:58 PM
There's actually a distinction for Wizards on what spells they do and do not know. Spells from a borrowed spellbook (ones they don't know) require a Spellcraft check. Ones they've put into their own spellbook don't (they know them).

There is a distinction between spells in their spellbook and other's spellbook, but they don't know spells in their own spellbook. They are just in a spellbook. Point to anywhere in the entire PHB where Wizard "spells known" are mentioned.


Or do you require that a Wizard taking a PrC that says "must know" in regards to some spell or some level of spells take Spell Mastery?

Please point out a PrC that says that instead of saying, "be able to cast."

JaxGaret
2008-04-19, 01:59 PM
Their spell list is every single spell in the game. How does it stop being on their spell list? They don't have spells known, they have a book. If their book contains a spell that is on their class list, they can prepare it. That's it. Since any spell they write in their book is on their class list, they can prepare it.

You're talking about the Chameleon's casting. I'm talking about the Wizard's casting - Wizards do not have a spell list of every single spell in the game.


Wizard's don't have spells known. They have spells on the Wizard list. Any spell that is on the Wizard spell list that is in a spellbook can be prepared by a Wizard.

Correct. When I said "spells known", that was what I was referring to. Sorry for the confusion.


Where this becomes an issue is if you kill and loot the Spellbook of a Wizard who had Arcane Disciple X. Now you have Wizard spells in a spellbook that you should be able to prepare. Except that this gives you the benefit of a feat without taking it. So most DMs don't allow it. However the rules are very clear that a Wizard can prepare any spell on the main Wizard spell list as long as he can see it in a spellbook.

Right, but spells copied into a Wizard's spellbook via the Arcane Disciple feat are not on every Wizard's spell list, they're only on the spell lists of Wizards who have gotten those spells on their spell list somehow, such as via Arcane Disciple. Thus a Wizard without those spells on their spell list can not pick up a spellbook with spells inscribed off of the Arcane Disciple feat and prepare them, without they themselves having those spells on their own spell list.

JaxGaret
2008-04-19, 02:00 PM
You've got it wrong. Extra Spell adds a spell from your spell list to your spells known. The spell remains on your spell list. Why can't you re-learn it from your spellbook or from a scroll once you forget it by changing the feat?

Because it's not on the Wizard's spell list. As soon as you change the Extra Spell (or Arcane Disciple) feat, the spell is no longer on the Wizard's spell list. The spell is still in the spellbook, but the Wizard can not prepare it, because it is not on their spell list.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 02:05 PM
You're talking about the Chameleon's casting. I'm talking about the Wizard's casting - Wizards do not have a spell list of every single spell in the game.

Except that the part I quoted was where you claimed that a Chameleon could not use extra spell to get every spell he wants into his spellbook. Even though he can.


Because it's not on the Wizard's spell list. As soon as you change the Extra Spell feat, the spell is no longer on the Wizard's spell list. The spell is still in the spellbook, but the Wizard can non prepare it, because it is not on their spell list.

No. If you take Extra spell, it can only give you a spell on your spell list, it cannot give you one not on your spellist. So there is no possible way when losing the feat, to lose access to the spell if you are a spellbook caster. Because it will always be on your spellist, and you can't take Extra spell for a spell not on your spellist.

JaxGaret
2008-04-19, 02:11 PM
Except that the part I quoted was where you claimed that a Chameleon could not use extra spell to get every spell he wants into his spellbook. Even though he can.

Yes, they can go into the Wizard's spellbook, but unless they are on the Wizard's spell list (which they are not after the feat is changed), they can not be prepared.


No. If you take Extra spell, it can only give you a spell on your spell list, it cannot give you one not on your spellist. So there is no possible way when losing the feat, to lose access to the spell if you are a spellbook caster. Because it will always be on your spellist, and you can't take Extra spell for a spell not on your spellist.

It is on the Chameleon's list, but not the Wizard's list.

I think perhaps something was lost in translation here; I am talking about the use of Chameleon2 as a dip for a Wizard build, which seemed to be the original intention of the suggestion. Why else would you only take two levels of Chameleon to get the floating bonus feat to get extra spells on the spell list every day? If you wanted the spells to be used by the Chameleon's casting, you would take more than 2 levels.

Pirate_King
2008-04-19, 02:11 PM
Except that the part I quoted was where you claimed that a Chameleon could not use extra spell to get every spell he wants into his spellbook. Even though he can.


He is still theoretically limited by the pages in the spellbook, though that is often a mechanic that is overlooked...

Though, it would be kind of cool for a chameleon to carry multiple spell books, choosing one or more to use depending on the kind of caster he wants to imitate for the day.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-19, 02:14 PM
Because it's not on the Wizard's spell list. As soon as you change the Extra Spell (or Arcane Disciple) feat, the spell is no longer on the Wizard's spell list. The spell is still in the spellbook, but the Wizard can not prepare it, because it is not on their spell list.

What? Extra Spell adds a spell *that is on your spell list* to your spells known.

Look, a Sorcerer has Scribe Scroll. He takes Extra Spell(Fly). He scribes a scroll of Fly. Then, he gets a psion to manifest Psychic Reformation on him, and he trades the Extra Spell feat out for, say, Empower Spell.
Can he no longer use the Fly scroll, or something?

If he's a wizard and not a sorcerer, can he not scribe that scroll of Fly into his spellbook, just like any other scroll?

Saihyol
2008-04-19, 02:15 PM
Just to add to the mix: what would happen if you took improved familiar, summoned a familiar while you had the feat then changed it?

JaxGaret
2008-04-19, 02:19 PM
What? Extra Spell adds a spell *that is on your spell list* to your spells known.

As I stated above, I was going by the debatable interpretation of Extra Spell as off of any spell list; otherwise the Chameleon2/floating feat Extra Spell combination is useless for a Wizard anyway.

Pirate_King
2008-04-19, 02:19 PM
Just to add to the mix: what would happen if you took improved familiar, summoned a familiar while you had the feat then changed it?

wacky. maybe it would stop obeying you, like a pokemon you got in a trade when you don't have all the badges. I'd probably rule you'd have to disband it when you changed the feat.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-19, 02:21 PM
There is a distinction between spells in their spellbook and other's spellbook, but they don't know spells in their own spellbook. They are just in a spellbook. Point to anywhere in the entire PHB where Wizard "spells known" are mentioned.

PHB's a little trickier - the Geometer referrs to spells known as a Wizard when talking about particular class features that add spells to a spellbook.

Ah, there's one - under Spellcraft:
It's "Learn" when referring to gaining spells from scrolls or captured spellbooks ... and it's a specifically wizard-only option.





Please point out a PrC that says that instead of saying, "be able to cast."
Archmage uses "Knoweledge of" when referring to the wide range of schools. Is that close enough, or do you not require Sorcerers taking levels in Archmage to have them as spells known?

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 02:23 PM
Yes, they can go into the Wizard's spellbook, but unless they are on the Wizard's spell list (which they are not after the feat is changed), they can not be prepared.

1) If the spell was originally on the Wizard spell list it will still be there. The wizard can use the floating bonus feat to fill his spellbook with every single Wizard spell in the game. He cannot use it to get Bard spells.

2) If the spell wasn't on the Wizard spell list before he took the feat, it still won't be on the Wizard spell list after taking the feat. A Wizard 5/Chameleon 2 will never be able to use Extra spell to cast Cure light wounds from a Wizard slot. Ever.


I think perhaps something was lost in translation here; I am talking about the use of Chameleon2 as a dip for a Wizard build, which seemed to be the original intention of the suggestion.

1) I see no evidence that anyone was suggesting that. I do see evidence that it was suggested that thanks to extra spell, the floating feat could be used to fill up the Chameleon's spell book (for Arcane Focus).

2) I don't think anyone really cares if it works, since giving up two levels of Wizard casting for just the ability to put things in your spellbook you could have added anyway is pretty useless.


Why else would you only take two levels of Chameleon to get the floating bonus feat to get extra spells on the spell list every day? If you wanted the spells to be used by the Chameleon's casting, you would take more than 2 levels.

I don't see anyone suggesting that adding two Chameleon levels to a Wizard build is helpful. I see references to Chameleons filling their spellbooks, and Warlocks taking only two Chameleon levels. I think you were the first person to mention Wizards.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-19, 02:25 PM
As I stated above, I was going by the debatable interpretation of Extra Spell as off of any spell list; otherwise the Chameleon2/floating feat Extra Spell combination is useless for a Wizard anyway.

Even if that's the case, the Chameleon doesn't *have* to take it off a different spell list. He can take it off his own spell list.

Chameleons can use Extra Spell to learn a new spell a day, QED.

Pirate_King
2008-04-19, 02:26 PM
There is a distinction between spells in their spellbook and other's spellbook, but they don't know spells in their own spellbook. They are just in a spellbook. Point to anywhere in the entire PHB where Wizard "spells known" are mentioned.


I think generally when we speak about a wizard's "spells known", we mean spells a wizard can prepare without spellcraft checks, i.e. spells in his own spell book. on the points you've made on the creating a scroll with the extra spell feat, then using the rules for adding a spell from a scroll, I think I agree with you, but I don't actually know where the extra spell feat is to look it up.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 02:27 PM
He is still theoretically limited by the pages in the spellbook, though that is often a mechanic that is overlooked...

Though, it would be kind of cool for a chameleon to carry multiple spell books, choosing one or more to use depending on the kind of caster he wants to imitate for the day.

You can buy as many spellbooks as you want. And there is no limit to how many spellbooks you can prepare spells from on a single day.

If you have 400 spellbooks each with one spell in them, you can prepare one spell from each book for that day.

Pirate_King
2008-04-19, 02:29 PM
Even if that's the case, the Chameleon doesn't *have* to take it off a different spell list. He can take it off his own spell list.

Chameleons can use Extra Spell to learn a new spell a day, QED.

kind of an in-game waste, though, since the entire day has to be devoted to learning that spell and adding it to the book. I suppose it could just occur "off screen," or however you refer to things you don't actually do during a gaming session.

JaxGaret
2008-04-19, 02:29 PM
1) If the spell was originally on the Wizard spell list it will still be there. The wizard can use the floating bonus feat to fill his spellbook with every single Wizard spell in the game. He cannot use it to get Bard spells.

2) If the spell wasn't on the Wizard spell list before he took the feat, it still won't be on the Wizard spell list after taking the feat. A Wizard 5/Chameleon 2 will never be able to use Extra spell to cast Cure light wounds from a Wizard slot. Ever.

Correct, unless the debatable interpretation of Extra Spell as working off of any spell list is used.


1) I see no evidence that anyone was suggesting that. I do see evidence that it was suggested that thanks to extra spell, the floating feat could be used to fill up the Chameleon's spell book (for Arcane Focus).

2) I don't think anyone really cares if it works, since giving up two levels of Wizard casting for just the ability to put things in your spellbook you could have added anyway is pretty useless.

I don't see anyone suggesting that adding two Chameleon levels to a Wizard build is helpful. I see references to Chameleons filling their spellbooks, and Warlocks taking only two Chameleon levels. I think you were the first person to mention Wizards.


You can also use Chameleon 2 to fill the arcane spellbook for free--just take Extra Spell, write it down, take Extra Spell for a different spell the next day, etc.

This is what I was referring to. Taking only 2 levels in Chameleon to utilize the floating bonus feat on Extra Spell (with the interpretation that you can take the spell off of any spell list) is nigh-useless without a Wizard build to harness the additions to the spellbook.

Unless it's just a way to make large quantities of money, but that's the sort of thing that DMs frown upon, like casting Walls of Iron and selling them.

Pirate_King
2008-04-19, 02:31 PM
You can buy as many spellbooks as you want. And there is no limit to how many spellbooks you can prepare spells from on a single day.

If you have 400 spellbooks each with one spell in them, you can prepare one spell from each book for that day.

I know, but are you going to carry them around everywhere when you're adventuring? Do you always have access your massive library of every spell you've ever written down?

Someone's going to say bag of holding, and I'm going to *facepalm*. I think it would take more than the usual hour of preparation time to go through all those books for the exact spells you wanted, but that's where the rules kind of fall apart, like Durkon's speed staying the same even when he's huge.

Solo
2008-04-19, 02:34 PM
As far as I know, Chameleons work kinda like Archivists. As long as it's an arcane spell, they can cast it if they have it in the spellbook, which, I think, means that they can use Extra Spell to grab arcane spells.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 02:40 PM
PHB's a little trickier - the Geometer referrs to spells known as a Wizard when talking about particular class features that add spells to a spellbook.

Well I can't say for sure, but it sounds like Wizard's don't have spells known unless they take levels in Geometer.


Ah, there's one - under Spellcraft:
It's "Learn" when referring to gaining spells from scrolls or captured spellbooks ... and it's a specifically wizard-only option.

Right. And "Learning" a spell is getting good enough to copy it, not "knowing" it.


Archmage uses "Knoweledge of" when referring to the wide range of schools. Is that close enough, or do you not require Sorcerers taking levels in Archmage to have them as spells known?

I don't require Sorcerers to have those spells as spells known. I require them to have knowledge of them, IE make a spellcraft check.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 02:46 PM
This is what I was referring to. Taking only 2 levels in Chameleon to utilize the floating bonus feat on Extra Spell (with the interpretation that you can take the spell off of any spell list) is nigh-useless without a Wizard build to harness the additions to the spellbook.

Unless it's just a way to make large quantities of money, but that's the sort of thing that DMs frown upon, like casting Walls of Iron and selling them.

He was only using Chameleon 2 to refer to the ability gained at level 2 to fill up the Chameleon's Arcane Spellbook (that's the reason he said Arcane Spellbook, instead of Wizard Spellbook).

He was not advocating that you stop taking Chameleon levels after that.

Pirate_King
2008-04-19, 02:47 PM
I don't require Sorcerers to have those spells as spells known. I require them to have knowledge of them, IE make a spellcraft check.

Wouldn't a knowledge(arcana) check make more sense here?

Jack_Simth
2008-04-19, 02:48 PM
Well I can't say for sure, but it sounds like Wizard's don't have spells known unless they take levels in Geometer.



Right. And "Learning" a spell is getting good enough to copy it, not "knowing" it.



I don't require Sorcerers to have those spells as spells known. I require them to have knowledge of them, IE make a spellcraft check.

Oh, hey - found one a bit more straight-forward; from the SRD, mirrored just fine in the PHB:


Wizard Spells and Borrowed Spellbooks

A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured. First, the wizard must decipher the writing in the book (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Once a spell from another spellcasterís book is deciphered, the reader must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spellís level) to prepare the spell. If the check succeeds, the wizard can prepare the spell. She must repeat the check to prepare the spell again, no matter how many times she has prepared it before. If the check fails, she cannot try to prepare the spell from the same source again until the next day. (However, as explained above, she does not need to repeat a check to decipher the writing.)
(Emphasis added)

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 02:49 PM
I know, but are you going to carry them around everywhere when you're adventuring? Do you always have access your massive library of every spell you've ever written down?

Someone's going to say bag of holding, and I'm going to *facepalm*. I think it would take more than the usual hour of preparation time to go through all those books for the exact spells you wanted, but that's where the rules kind of fall apart, like Durkon's speed staying the same even when he's huge.

400 was an extravagant number. To have the best copy of every Arcane spell ever created up to 6th level would probably not take more then 150 spellbooks. or two BBBs.

The actual amount you will want is far below that number. Then you just put them all in a Handy Haversack and preparing is easy, since whichever book has the spell you want is the book that appears in you hand.

Pirate_King
2008-04-19, 02:53 PM
or two BBBs.


BBB is short for what, now? I remember something about a larger spell book, but I can't remember where it is...

yay jack for clarifying what knowing a spell means.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-19, 02:57 PM
BBB is short for what, now? I remember something about a larger spell book, but I can't remember where it is...

yay jack for clarifying what knowing a spell means.

Baccob's Blessed Book. DMG. Also the Blessed Book in the SRD. Same effect - 1,000 pages.

I once worked it out for Sor/Wiz spells in the PHB - you'd need 4 Blessed Books to contain them all up to 9th level. Two would probably cover it for all of them up to 6th, if you restrict it to just the PHB.

JaxGaret
2008-04-19, 03:49 PM
He was only using Chameleon 2 to refer to the ability gained at level 2 to fill up the Chameleon's Arcane Spellbook (that's the reason he said Arcane Spellbook, instead of Wizard Spellbook).

He was not advocating that you stop taking Chameleon levels after that.

I suppose so. It was how I read it at the time - usually saying "use class x" where x is a number means that you are taking only x number of levels in the class.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-04-19, 03:56 PM
Oh, hey - found one a bit more straight-forward; from the SRD, mirrored just fine in the PHB:

And you'll note that nowhere in the description does it give any indication of what knowing a spell is. However, based on the rest of that sentence is makes it very clear that a Wizard can know a spell without having it in his spellbook.

Therefore, based on both that passage and the spellcraft description, I would have to say that "knowing" a spell consists of making a spellcraft check that would allow you to either prepare the spell or copy it into your spellbook.

So Wizards do have spells "known." Those spells just happen to consist of every spell in their spellbook, and every spell in someone else's spellbook that they have made a spellcraft check against.


Wouldn't a knowledge(arcana) check make more sense here?

No, Spellcraft would, since the most often used use of Spellcraft is to identify a spell, IE have knowledge of it.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-19, 04:24 PM
And you'll note that nowhere in the description does it give any indication of what knowing a spell is. However, based on the rest of that sentence is makes it very clear that a Wizard can know a spell without having it in his spellbook.

Therefore, based on both that passage and the spellcraft description, I would have to say that "knowing" a spell consists of making a spellcraft check that would allow you to either prepare the spell or copy it into your spellbook.

So Wizards do have spells "known." Those spells just happen to consist of every spell in their spellbook, and every spell in someone else's spellbook that they have made a spellcraft check against.
Yep. And as the Extra Spell feat just adds to Spells Known, making no mention of putting it into the spellbook, a Chameleon can't add spells that way.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-19, 04:52 PM
Yep. And as the Extra Spell feat just adds to Spells Known, making no mention of putting it into the spellbook, a Chameleon can't add spells that way.

Once you know a spell, you can add it to your spellbook. Write it in, just like you could write your spells known into a blank spellbook normally.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-19, 05:12 PM
Once you know a spell, you can add it to your spellbook. Write it in, just like you could write your spells known into a blank spellbook normally.
Except that you can't. You have to copy them from somewhere, save for the ones you get free from leveling up.

Also - fun quirk:
A Chameleon using an Arcane Focus does not technically gain the ability to scribe spells into a spellbook.

Pirate_King
2008-04-19, 05:43 PM
The question, then is can you use extra spell to scribe a scroll of that spell, if you can't just add it to your spell book as is.

Chronos
2008-04-19, 06:50 PM
As I stated above, I was going by the debatable interpretation of Extra Spell as off of any spell list; otherwise the Chameleon2/floating feat Extra Spell combination is useless for a Wizard anyway.It's not completely useless. It's quite plausible that a wizard might desire to learn a particular spell, but not have access to a spellbook or scroll containing that spell. Extra Spell would then give the wizard that spell. This would probably not be worth two levels, but it is possible.

And the description of Extra Spell (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Extra_Spell,all) does indeed say that wizards can use it for this purpose.

JaxGaret
2008-04-19, 09:26 PM
It's not completely useless. It's quite plausible that a wizard might desire to learn a particular spell, but not have access to a spellbook or scroll containing that spell. Extra Spell would then give the wizard that spell. This would probably not be worth two levels, but it is possible.

You're right, it's not completely useless, but it's not as eminently useful as the trick that I was discussing.

Taking levels in MotAO would accomplish the same thing far more efficiently.

Jack_Simth
2008-04-19, 09:46 PM
You're right, it's not completely useless, but it's not as eminently useful as the trick that I was discussing.

Taking levels in MotAO would accomplish the same thing far more efficiently.Sorta. You'll need Mage's Lucubation (or the non-d20 named version) to get it into a state of "prepared normally" to keep them, as spellpool spells can't be learned from the calling.

Maerok
2008-04-19, 11:39 PM
What would be good as the X for a Changeling Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/X 2 in the sense of making this character able to impersonate damn near everything?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-19, 11:58 PM
I like the Chameleon although I think the PRC should get Cover Identity and Deep Cover Identity class specials like the Spymaster PRC in Complete Adventurer or the Zhentarim Spy in PGtF.

Reel On, Love
2008-04-20, 12:03 AM
What would be good as the X for a Changeling Factotum 8/Chameleon 10/X 2 in the sense of making this character able to impersonate damn near everything?

Cleric 1 (Two domains, Turn Undead), Swordsage or Warblade 1 (some maneuvers). Swordsage 2 is mechanically better (WIS synergy with divine casting, more maneuvers known which lets you get higher level ones--a F8/Ch10 has an IL of 9, which means Swordsage 1 ups it to 10, and Sws 2 ups it to 11, netting you a single sixth-level maneuver) but Warblade 1 can in fact pick up both Iron Heart Surge and White Raven Tactics with its three maneuvers/one stance, which is great.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-20, 12:07 AM
Cloistered Cleric at first level for the skill points if not taking Swordsage there for the skill points.

Maerok
2008-04-20, 11:35 AM
I just wanna grab as many class abilities as possible - no stance/maneuver stuff. My goal is create a Chameleon that can emulate any combination of class and race.

What about Warshaper 2 (Changeling = shapechanger?)?
Immune to stunning and critical hits
+4 Str/Con
Natural weapon of your choice

Master of Masks 2 (Faceless, High Priest, Gladiator)? Faceless is the most appealing mask here.

Spymaster 2?

Monk 2? There's quite a few good abilities in these first two levels that could help in combat. But it ties me down to Lawful, when I'd be Chaotic.

Bard 1/Barbarian 1? Rage and bardic music haven't been covered yet.
Bear Totem Barbarian 2 gives Rage and Improved Grapple, which covers barbarian and sort of monk.

Or even the Doppelganger bloodline would be cool. Alter self and detect thoughts in case of emergencies.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-20, 12:01 PM
I just wanna grab as many class abilities as possible - no stance/maneuver stuff. My goal is create a Chameleon that can emulate any combination of class and race.


Changeling to take the Changeling Rogue variant -1 or 2 and taking at least one level at first level for 10 base skill points plus Int mod multiplied by four and the fast diplomacy and gather information class specials.

Cloistered Cleric variant for Bardic Knowledge and the bonus knowledge domain in addition to the standard two domains.

Monk -1 (2 if only a single Rogue level was taken)

Beguiler or Wizard Specialist -1 or

Possibly Spell Thief -1 depending on how the Master Spell Thief feat would work with Chameleon or

Binder -1 with the Improved Binding feat (Up to a level 2 Vestige) would grant a lot of options in game. Andromalius, Malphas, Naberius, Savnok is nice for the armor at low levels in a suggested wealth by level game.

Chameleon - 3+ with X-12 levels to personal taste.

Riffington
2008-04-20, 01:46 PM
It's quite plausible that a wizard might desire to learn a particular spell, but not have access to a spellbook or scroll containing that spell.

This is more than plausible, it is a basic premise of the game: that wizards who have invented useful spells do not share them lightly. This is why there is a minimum cost listed to convince a wizard to share a spell with you (and obviously if that spell is extra rare in your campaign, that cost will be higher). It's in fact the only power check on wizards.

If a chameleon can simply think for a day and independently invent that spell you've just spent 3 years researching... it destroys a major part of the game.

I'm not claiming chameleons shouldn't be able to cast arcane spells. You can get a spellbook by mugging a wizard, and you can fill it by buying spells, copying them from friends, etc... you just shouldn't be able to mystically intuit a secret spell without learning it from *somewhere*.

Rachel Lorelei
2008-04-20, 01:52 PM
This is more than plausible, it is a basic premise of the game: that wizards who have invented useful spells do not share them lightly. This is why there is a minimum cost listed to convince a wizard to share a spell with you (and obviously if that spell is extra rare in your campaign, that cost will be higher). It's in fact the only power check on wizards.
Sorry, but--not really. The spells are supposed to be balanced against each other, more or less; what's more, the wizard automatically learns 2 spells/level (4/level with Collegiate Wizard--he'll never buy another scroll!--or 3/level with the Elven Generalist substitution level), so a wizard can have the most powerful spells in the game, and a bunch of others (since scrolls, spellbooks you can pay to look at, etc. are availible at a cost by the rules) on top of that.


If a chameleon can simply think for a day and independently invent that spell you've just spent 3 years researching... it destroys a major part of the game.
Except that the same Chameleon can Teleport over and fork over a paltry sum of gold (50*spell level) to scribe the spell. All Extra Spell shenanigans do is make it more convenient--because, let's face, it, "I track down a guy and give him money to scribe a spell" isn't what I play D&D for, and I don't think it's what you play D&D for either.


I'm not claiming chameleons shouldn't be able to cast arcane spells. You can get a spellbook by mugging a wizard, and you can fill it by buying spells, copying them from friends, etc... you just shouldn't be able to mystically intuit a secret spell without learning it from *somewhere*.
You learn it from the Extra Spell feat, which you can take normally.
I'm not sure why you have a problem with the Chameleon "mystically intuiting" a "secret" (it's not secret, you can pay 50gp/spell level in any big city to get it!) spell... considering that the Chameleon is mystically intuiting not only *arcane casting itself*, but *every divine spell EVER* on top of that.

Maerok
2008-04-20, 01:53 PM
For Master Spellthief and Chameleon (seems to work):
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=986795

Ok. So for Changeling Rogue, can that be combined with the fighter feat Rogue variant (UA) that gives up SA for fighter feats?

For Cloistered Cleric, these domains look useful (I have to pick two):
-Fate: Uncanny Dodge
-Mind: +2 Bluff/Diplomacy/Sense Motive
-Nobility: Emulate bardic music (+2 attacks,saves,checks,etc. for 1 minute/Cha)

So far, I like this combination:
Changeling Feat Rogue 1 (substitution; 4 x (10 +Int) skill points is nice)
-If I can get the Feat Rogue variant with this -> Improved Unarmed Strike (monk)
Cloistered Cleric 1 (Fate and Nobility)
Factotum 8 (I like this class)
Chameleon 10

Side goals of this character are to have at least 5 ranks in all skills, and to have all languages trained (Changelings get Speak Language as a class skill so it shouldn't be too hard).

Riffington
2008-04-20, 02:02 PM
Except that the same Chameleon can Teleport over and fork over a paltry sum of gold (50*spell level) to scribe the spell.

For many spells, sure. But some are secrets, and you can't buy them for any price. Those secret spells don't have to be the most powerful, just secret. And chameleons can't get those.



"I track down a guy and give him money to scribe a spell" isn't what I play D&D for
Sure. For most spells: if you are in a big city and it's a high-magic world, you can get the dang spell. If (for whatever reason) you can't get to a big city, you can't. But if it's a special spell (whatever that is in your campaign), you can't get it without some way of doing so.

Chronos
2008-04-20, 02:03 PM
Side goals of this character are to have at least 5 ranks in all skills...If you have time to prepare, you can get this for free from Chameleon. Spend your floating feat on Open Minded. Done.

Mark Hall
2008-04-20, 02:07 PM
A quick question; probably answered in a book somewhere, but I don't feel like searching through unfamiliar books for it.

Can changelings become Chameleons? Since they're human/doppleganger crossbreeds, it would seem reasonable, but is it actually stated somewhere, or just assumed?

Rachel Lorelei
2008-04-20, 02:17 PM
For many spells, sure. But some are secrets, and you can't buy them for any price. Those secret spells don't have to be the most powerful, just secret. And chameleons can't get those.
I've never played in a game where an arbitrary collection of spells were designated "secret". Why? What's the point? You're not restricting by power, you're not doing anything except making a handful of spells less accessible. If no one wants these particular spells this won't even be noticed; at best, it's an arbitrary limitation that does nothing for the game, at worst, you're saying "no, you can't have that" to a player for absolutely no good reason--not even flavor (after all, you could just say "there are secret spells" and have them be some of the ones the Chameleon doesn't take--there'll be plenty).

(And chameleons could get those. Divinations, teleport, trade them another obscure spell, or do a mini-quest, or whatever. Or... ANY WIZARD can take the spell on level-up. And once one chameleon, or enterprising wizard, or etc has these secret spells, he can spread them far and wide.)



Sure. For most spells: if you are in a big city and it's a high-magic world, you can get the dang spell. If (for whatever reason) you can't get to a big city, you can't. But if it's a special spell (whatever that is in your campaign), you can't get it without some way of doing so.
Remember, any wizard can learn these spells on level up, any appropriate caster can take Extra Spell for them. How are they still secret? And *how* is "but I want to have SECRET spells" (which, because they're secret, the PCs will presumably never hear or at least care about--nobody's going to quest for Hold Portal) a good reason to deny Extra Spell as a Chameleon's floating feat?

Jack_Simth
2008-04-20, 02:19 PM
A quick question; probably answered in a book somewhere, but I don't feel like searching through unfamiliar books for it.

Can changelings become Chameleons? Since they're human/doppleganger crossbreeds, it would seem reasonable, but is it actually stated somewhere, or just assumed?
It's in the adaptation notes at the bottom of the entry that it should be made available to changlings.

Riffington
2008-04-20, 02:34 PM
I've never played in a game where an arbitrary collection of spells were designated "secret". Why?
... ANY WIZARD can take the spell on level-up.

First, Wizards can get 2 spells on level-up. Nowhere does it say which 2 spells those are. A nice DM will let you pick them (presumably from the set of commonly-available spells), but technically you only get to pick your 1st level spells... This Feat, however, lets you "learn a specific spell that the character lacks access to and would be unable to research." As such, it is not limited to commonly-available spells.

Why... well, it depends on your campaign. Perhaps there's a spell, known only to the Drow (or Wizards of Thay, or whatever) that is useful for punishing servants who have been previously Marked. But if their enemies had it, all those Marked servants would be easy to defeat.
Perhaps I've invented a signature Magnificent Mansion variant (with particularly amazing flan) that nobles will pay handsomely to experience.
Perhaps my Dominate variant is the secret to my political power, and I jealously guard its secret.

I think it's fair to say that a levelling-up wizard can pick Fireball but cannot pick one of those. Now, with some practice and a willingness to spend a feat, they may duplicate it. If a chameleon can do it in a day, it messes everything up.

Mark Hall
2008-04-20, 02:35 PM
It's in the adaptation notes at the bottom of the entry that it should be made available to changlings.

So it is; I completely glossed over that part.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-20, 02:45 PM
Ok. So for Changeling Rogue, can that be combined with the fighter feat Rogue variant (UA) that gives up SA for fighter feats?

Factotum 8 (I like this class)
Chameleon 10

Side goals of this character are to have at least 5 ranks in all skills, and to have all languages trained (Changelings get Speak Language as a class skill so it shouldn't be too hard).

I don't see why not it's just applying a double variant both of which are legal and established in game.

Factotums rock. They really rock with a level dip in Marshal and a decent charisma before picking up the Dual aura feat so you have Motivate Charisma and Motivate Intelligence on top of extra Fonts of Inspiration feats.

Chronos
2008-04-20, 03:52 PM
actotums rock. They really rock with a level dip in Marshal and a decent charisma before picking up the Dual aura feat so you have Motivate Charisma and Motivate Intelligence on top of extra Fonts of Inspiration feats.Why those two specifically? I've a hunch that you're trying to use the Motivate Charisma to improve the other auras, and to apply Motivate Intelligence to Str and Dex skills via Brains over Brawn, but I'm pretty sure that neither of them work that way.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-20, 04:52 PM
Why those two specifically? I've a hunch that you're trying to use the Motivate Charisma to improve the other auras, and to apply Motivate Intelligence to Str and Dex skills via Brains over Brawn, but I'm pretty sure that neither of them work that way.

Depends on the game but I don't see why not since the auras are increasing the Intelligence bonus.

Cunning Defense, Brains Over Brawn. Cunning Defense lets you add your Int to AC against one attacker per round for a point of inspiration - very handy. Brains Over Brawn, however, doesn't cost any inspiration - and it lets you add your Int bonus to Str and Dex checks and all Strength and Dex-based skills.

Chronos
2008-04-20, 07:56 PM
Depends on the game but I don't see why not since the auras are increasing the Intelligence bonus. No, they give a separate bonus to Int checks and Int-based skills (or Cha checks and Cha-based skills). Open Locks, say, is a dex-based skill (even if you also add your Int bonus to it), so you'd need Motivate Dexterity for it. And the auras themselves aren't ability checks or skills at all, so Motivate Charisma won't do a thing for them.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-20, 08:16 PM
No, they give a separate bonus to Int checks and Int-based skills (or Cha checks and Cha-based skills). Open Locks, say, is a dex-based skill (even if you also add your Int bonus to it), so you'd need Motivate Dexterity for it. And the auras themselves aren't ability checks or skills at all, so Motivate Charisma won't do a thing for them.

I disagree but I am also expecting the Factotum to take the Agile Athlete feat.

The Intelligence bonus applied to the skill checks includes enhancing via magic, class abilities and magic items just like other class skill checks. This is the general consensus I have seen at the Wizard's board regarding the Factotum class.

Chronos
2008-04-20, 08:35 PM
The Intelligence bonus applied to the skill checks includes enhancing via magic, class abilities and magic items just like other class skill checks. This is the general consensus I have seen at the Wizard's board regarding the Factotum class.Yes, but Marshal auras don't change your intelligence bonus. From the Marshall (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b):
Minor Aura: A minor aura lets allies add the marshal's Charisma bonus (if any) to certain rolls.
...
# Motivate Charisma: Bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks.
# Motivate Constitution: Bonus on Constitution checks and Constitution-based skill checks.
# Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks.
# Motivate Intelligence: Bonus on Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks.
# Motivate Strength: Bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
# Motivate Wisdom: Bonus on Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks.An aura is not a Charisma check or a Charisma-based skill check, so Motivate Charisma doesn't improve auras. And Open Locks, Hide, Tumble, etc. are skill checks, but they're Dexterity-based skill checks, so you use Motivate Dexterity to boost them.

And what does Agile Athlete have to do with this? That doesn't have anything to do with Int or Cha.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-20, 08:52 PM
Good catch. My mistake the auras should have been Motivate Dexterity and Motivate Intelligence.

Minor Aura: A minor aura lets allies add the marshal's Charisma bonus (if any) to certain rolls.

Motivate Dexterity: Bonus on Dexterity checks, Dexterity-based skill checks, and initiative checks.

Motivate Intelligence: Bonus on Intelligence checks and Intelligence-based skill checks.

Agile Athlete:
http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Agile_Athlete,all