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View Full Version : Disguises - abuwhuh?



kamikasei
2008-04-18, 05:05 PM
Well, I'm finally getting to play a changeling, and he's a beguiler to boot so he's got disguisin' up the wazoo. I'm puzzling over the interaction of the disguise skill, the changeling's minor shape change ability, and the disguise self spell. My questions, originally posted here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4210857&postcount=80), are spoilered. (Den is the character's name.)

Okay, so Den has a shapechange ability. This is described as granting +10 on the check if it's used to create a disguise.

When does it count as being used to create a disguise? Does he need to make a check whenever he wants to change his appearance, or just when he wants to impersonate a specific individual? Can he change how he looks with impunity without needing to make checks until he wants to specifically fool someone into thinking he's someone else (with the implication that he never has to make such a check to take on a persona he's created himself)?

How are the penalties for race and gender factored in? Are they still present, but the +10 bonus helps cover them? Or are they entirely dispensed with (gender especially, since Den can actually be female if he wants)?

How long does it take to create a disguise using minor shape change? The disguise skill says it takes 10-30 minutes, but the ability is only a full-round action. Does it still take a long time to impersonate a specific person? How about taking on a self-made persona? (This same question applies to the disguise self spell.)

How do minor shape change and disguise self interact? Both grant +10 unnamed bonuses. Do those bonuses stack? If Den changes shape to look like someone and then casts disguise self to change his clothing etc. to match, is that a +20 total bonus or does the spell just cover changing the appearance of the possessions?

In a similar vein, since a hat of disguise mimics the spell, the same questions apply to it. If you rule that the bonuses do not stack, would it be possible to obtain a half-price version of the hat which only works on equipment/clothing in the first place?

The basic questions: what constitutes creating a disguise rather than just changing your appearance; do supernatural abilities and/or spells cut the time required to create a disguise down from the 10-30 minutes specified in the skill to the casting/use time; and how do the bonuses granted interact?

Anyone? This one's been bugging me for a while, and it's likely to become a problem in my RL game soon if a returning player wants to resume her... eh... changeling beguiler.

senrath
2008-04-18, 05:12 PM
For changelings and the like, I'd personally rule that disguise only comes into effect when you're trying to assume the appearance of a specific person/thing. As for the spells stacking, I'm pretty sure no extra bonus would be given, although it would affect your clothes nicely (isn't there a set of magic clothes or something that can change how they look, though? I might be wrong). As for the other questions, I'm not sure.

Admiral Squish
2008-04-18, 05:14 PM
For changelings and the like, I'd personally rule that disguise only comes into effect when you're trying to assume the appearance of a specific person/thing. As for the spells stacking, I'm pretty sure no extra bonus would be given, although it would affect your clothes nicely (isn't there a set of magic clothes or something that can change how they look, though? I might be wrong). As for the other questions, I'm not sure.

It's called the Vestament of Many Styles. 500g, adds +2 to disguise checks involving clothes, and changes with a command word.

Admiral Squish
2008-04-18, 05:16 PM
What I'm curious about is, if you can change your hair, skin, and clothes at will, wouldn't that also add a bonus to hiding? Or could you 'disguise' yourself as part of a wall, perhaps?

skeeter_dan
2008-04-18, 05:27 PM
When I played a changeling, my DM houseruled that I got a bonus to hide checks at night if I wore black clothing and changed my skin colour to black, but I don't think there's a specific rule for that.

kamikasei
2008-04-18, 05:28 PM
What I'm curious about is, if you can change your hair, skin, and clothes at will, wouldn't that also add a bonus to hiding? Or could you 'disguise' yourself as part of a wall, perhaps?

I suggested an answer to this in the other thread, but looking at the skill and spell, nothing says you have to use "natural" colours etc. for your new appearance, so theoretically you could in fact make your skin look like the wall, for example. However, I stand by my suggestion that in this case you are saying "I am going to use <ability> to help me hide" and the DM is possibly saying "Okay, you get a +2 circumstance bonus on your hide check". Makes more sense than giving a proper ongoing bonus to hide, especially given that the time required to cast the spell or use the ability pretty much rules out its use to hide in combat.

Admiral Squish
2008-04-18, 05:30 PM
I suggested an answer to this in the other thread, but looking at the skill and spell, nothing says you have to use "natural" colours etc. for your new appearance, so theoretically you could in fact make your skin look like the wall, for example. However, I stand by my suggestion that in this case you are saying "I am going to use <ability> to help me hide" and the DM is possibly saying "Okay, you get a +2 circumstance bonus on your hide check". Makes more sense than giving a proper ongoing bonus to hide, especially given that the time required to cast the spell or use the ability pretty much rules out its use to hide in combat.

Quick Change makes it a move action, and thusly more useful in most situations.

However, you do make a valid point on the rest of the issue. Perhaps a slightly higher bonus, though. After all, I'd say circumstances are pretty favorable to a wood-colored character hugging a tree trunk.

Mewtarthio
2008-04-18, 06:22 PM
I'd rule that you need to spend the 10-30 minutes "touching up" your new form to actually complete the disguise. You can't turn yourself into the mayor immediately, but you can turn yourself into someone who could pass as the mayor's hypothetical long-lost brother, then spend a bit more time with a disguise kit to make the illusion perfect.

kamikasei
2008-04-19, 05:21 AM
I'd rule that you need to spend the 10-30 minutes "touching up" your new form to actually complete the disguise. You can't turn yourself into the mayor immediately, but you can turn yourself into someone who could pass as the mayor's hypothetical long-lost brother, then spend a bit more time with a disguise kit to make the illusion perfect.

That's not an unreasonable ruling, but it does seem to conflict with the fluff given in Races of Eberron, as an example. There changelings are shown swapping forms in what seems like less than a minute with no suggestion that they might make mistakes or get caught out. Although, they're not impersonating specific preexisting individuals, but personas of their own creation (although, again, these personas are long-lasting and have to survive interactions with people who know them well). I don't see where a disguise kit would come in to it, though; if the issue is just to get the details right, I would think all that's required is a mirror.

The other difficulty is that there are no rules for rushing a disguise check. What you say about "turning yourself into someone who could pass as the mayor's hypothetical long-lost brother"... there doesn't seem to be a penalty for how much less likely that appearance is to fool anyone into thinking you're the mayor.

Further problems: Disguise self is a standard action and has duration 10min/level. A disguise check takes 10-30 minutes. If you have to make a disguise check taking as long as normal when you use the spell, then at first level, you are certain to use up the duration of the spell just checking that it's worked.

My inclination:
You only have to make a disguise check if you're impersonating someone else; changing your own appearance or taking on a persona of your own creation doesn't count, because there's no independent standard for others to compare against. If you're impersonating the mayor, others might spot that you didn't duplicate his pox scars quite right. If you're playing the part of Ace Changeling, Sharn Detective, well he doesn't exist except when you're playing him and he has no features you didn't give him, so no one can notice you've missed something unless you simply forget it by mistake.

Using magic or supernatural abilities to disguise yourself cuts the time required down to the action to use the spell or ability.

You take all the bonuses and penalties as usual on the disguise check. If you're playing a part of your own creation, add the +10 from the ability or spell, add the +5 for minor details, subtract any penalties for race, gender or age, and then take 10. That's a +25 before any penalties and before adding in actual ranks, so you're highly unlikely to screw up and have someone realize you're not playing a convincing elf (or whatever).