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View Full Version : V:tM question. Do you guys know where I could find actual Antediluvians' specs?



neochaos
2008-04-18, 09:39 PM
Ok, I know that they are damn strong, and some of their backstory, but I don't know their actual spec. White Wolf did so f***ing nice job making me curious about some of their settings, but not giving enough explanation, or sources, or blurring all their damn thing, or spliting all their settings in completely different books, or just give me some kind of index so I just can find it myself!!!!

....ok, ok. Where was I? oh, anyone who knows Antediluvian specs, or where I could find it, please let me know. I'm most curious about Saulot, the mastermind, but some others like Zapathasura are still cool.

comicshorse
2008-04-18, 10:33 PM
I'm pretty sure White Wolf never actually stated. them. The whole point was that the Antedeluvians were slumbering gods whose power was beyond the imagination of lesser creatures.
They can do pretty much whatever you feel they should. To give you an idea of the scale these guys operate on there were hints of what they were up to scattered through the books about the final days. Suggesting Gangrel was planning to earth-meld with the earth's core and Tzimisce had grown to the size of new York while it was sleeping.

Rutee
2008-04-18, 10:35 PM
They're basically Plot Devices. Literally, that's the 10 dot power in every Discipline. "Can do anything this discipline could theoretically be used for" And I think every Antediluvian has 10s in at least a couple of disciplines.

neochaos
2008-04-18, 10:40 PM
Make sense, since Zapathasura did kind of "alter reality" on whole world with his "Plot Device" ability.

I just wanted to know Saulot's spec that beated like 6 other 3rds single-handedly, and some of others like Eldest or something.

TehJhu
2008-04-18, 10:48 PM
Didn't one of OWoD's endings involve the gypsy Ante. waking up and attacking the planet? With like every European werewolf attacking him en masse while Mages bent sunlight around the globe to focus it on him so the werewolves could even hurt him?

Krrth
2008-04-18, 10:56 PM
Didn't one of OWoD's endings involve the gypsy Ante. waking up and attacking the planet? With like every European werewolf attacking him en masse while Mages bent sunlight around the globe to focus it on him so the werewolves could even hurt him?
That would be Ravnos. He died before the end book came out. It took the Technocracy everything it had to kill him, and that involved several nukes. AS far as I know, there were no Werewolves involved.

comicshorse
2008-04-18, 10:57 PM
Yup Ravnos rose in Shanghai and and required a load of Kue-Jin, the nastiest werewolf pack and Technochracy enhanced missiles to take him out.
Not WoD finest hour in my opinion.

TehJhu
2008-04-18, 10:57 PM
That would be Ravnos. He died before the end book came out. It took the Technocracy everything it had to kill him, and that involved several nukes. AS far as I know, there were no Werewolves involved.

How'd they explain repeatedly nuking one dude?

comicshorse
2008-04-18, 10:59 PM
They weren't exactly nukes, no radiation. But they had to fake a city destroying typhoon to cover it up

TehJhu
2008-04-18, 11:00 PM
They weren't exactly nukes, no radiation. But they had to fake a city destroying typhoon to cover it up

That made me lol a lot for some reason.

neochaos
2008-04-18, 11:02 PM
Technocracy didnt shoot a nuke. It shooked "Wraith nuke" which is the wraith, sadness, fear, pain like negative stuff brought by atomic bomb which was shoot at Japan in WWII. Bombs and other stuffs, like Solar-Beam killed it, and this basically started Final Nights. This happened in 1998, in game setting,

TehJhu
2008-04-18, 11:06 PM
Did OWoD end before 2000? In game time, I mean.

neochaos
2008-04-18, 11:12 PM
I think end of everything, the Time of Judgement, is 2004.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-18, 11:32 PM
Note: It was -not- the technocracy that created the typhoon. Ravnos did that to block out the sun. This battle lasted -days-. After the "nuke" didnt work, the Technocracy had to reflect light from every satellite in orbit and focus it directly onto Rav to kill him.

TehJhu
2008-04-18, 11:34 PM
I like my version with the werewolf fight.

Werewolves never got any love :smallfrown:

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-19, 01:19 AM
As I recall they were mostly 3rd and 4th generation vampires who spent most of their time physically comatose while mentally active.

Rutee
2008-04-19, 01:22 AM
Note: It was -not- the technocracy that created the typhoon. Ravnos did that to block out the sun. This battle lasted -days-. After the "nuke" didnt work, the Technocracy had to reflect light from every satellite in orbit and focus it directly onto Rav to kill him.

Also a huge mirror.


Werewolves never got any love
Which sucks, since thematically they're my favorite.

neochaos
2008-04-19, 01:29 AM
Most annoying thing about WoD is that the Vamps are the only one's who's getting stronger without limit as they grow old. Mithras even beated whole Garou pack single-handedly, and Baba Yaga swept out most of Garou's from Russia. Guys, it's not fair. How come Gaia's Warriors are weaker than blood sucking leeches? Damn Vamps....

Though I like their cool abilities, which gets almost like magic at over-six.

Rutee
2008-04-19, 01:57 AM
actually, I considered the most annoying thing the weight of the setting. It's like FR. You can't play without someone correcting you. A fear I'm worried about occuring with Exalted..

Quincunx
2008-04-19, 06:17 AM
Buggerall, I can't remember the name of the rather physically thin sourcebook. . .Time of Thin Blood, was it? It was released a bit before all these end-of-the-world guides, why is why you may have missed it, and that was the closest they came to statting out Ravnos; the end chapter(s?) of the book was(were) devoted to the awakening of Ravnos and the countermeasures of the other supernaturals, with some sidebar as to what these cinematic descriptions meant in game terms.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-19, 07:05 AM
Didn't one of OWoD's endings involve the gypsy Ante. waking up and attacking the planet? With like every European werewolf attacking him en masse while Mages bent sunlight around the globe to focus it on him so the werewolves could even hurt him?
Yes. As far as I remember, the story involved all of that (some Kindred strike forces, a group of elder Garou, I'm reasonably sure the Tradition Magi also tried something, then a magically-enhanced nuke, and when that didn't work either they used some kind of orbital mirror to scorch the general area). Antediluvians are hard to kill.

And yes, the point is that they're unstatted, just like Incarna and so forth. But the powers for level-10 of a discipline are written down in the Elder's Guide (Auspex 10 essentially makes you omniscient; Obfuscate 10 causes the entire world to forget you completely; and so forth).


How'd they explain repeatedly nuking one dude?
A little nifty thing called "Code: Ragnarok", which to the Technocracy essentially means "available budget: 100%; maximum acceptable losses: 100%; acceptable collateral damage: 100%; KILL THIS GUY we don't friggin' care how".

KillianHawkeye
2008-04-19, 07:54 PM
A little nifty thing called "Code: Ragnarok", which to the Technocracy essentially means "available budget: 100%; maximum acceptable losses: 100%; acceptable collateral damage: 100%; KILL THIS GUY we don't friggin' care how".

That is awesome. :smallbiggrin:

Krrth
2008-04-19, 07:57 PM
That is awesome. :smallbiggrin:
The real beauty is, if I remember correctly, that made them *very* nervous. The Technocracy book mentions that they considered vampires a low level threat, not even worth exterminating unless they got uppity. After the near miss with Ravnos, they started wondering just how many more like him there were out there.....

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-19, 08:39 PM
Considering vampires could be shut down by Lawn chairs o' Doom, it's no surprise they weren't taken seriously.

I wonder if they tried that on Ravnos?

SamTheCleric
2008-04-19, 08:49 PM
What was that... Prime 2/Matter 4? :smallbiggrin:

TehJhu
2008-04-19, 09:24 PM
Which sucks, since thematically they're my favorite.

When we used to LARP around here, only me and my cousin were werewoves, both Fianna Aurons. The whole town was overrun with leeches and after a few weekends of dealing with all the nacy-pantsy Kindred politics, me and him decided to start taking them out.

We started with the Nos. Not many people wanted to play them, but the three who did were pros. Still, after we killed them, the rest of the vamps got worried. The next weekend we killed a whole coterie(sp?) and got away clean. The next weekend we killed the Sherrif and the Prince got pissed. During the week after two of the refs called us and said the others were metagamming against us. They didn't like two "dog men" ruining all their caregfully played "dark opera" crap.

So me and my cousin decided to go for broke and bust into Elysium at the start of the nights play. Most of the vamps went there at the begining anyway to decide what to do, and this time the Prince had asked everyone to come to declare a "Blood Hunt" or whatever on whoever was killing the vamps.

Needless to say, we both died, but we killed the Prince and at least three other vampires. After it was over the Storyteller said that our named would be forever remembered in the annals of the Garou for our battle against the leeches. The vampire players were pissed at us.

We haven't LARPed with that group since. :smallcool:

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-19, 10:39 PM
Antediluvian Specs: You die. 'Nuff said.

Honestly, if your players are near an antediluvian for any reason, they're gonna get offed and they're gonna get offed real quickly. How they get offed is entirely up to you, but theres no way any group short of several hundred high XP characters are gonna fight an antediluvian long enough for it's specs to matter.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-19, 10:40 PM
Actually, the Lawnchair o' Doom would down antediluvians easily. Heck, CAIN himself would probably fall prey to it.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-19, 10:42 PM
Yeah, if you're high enough on the radar that an Antediluvian is your target... -other- things will be coming for you... Garou, Iteration X, Kuei-Jin, Hunters...

There are lots of things pre-ante that can screw up just about anything.

Didn't they leave out the level 10 powers from the revised third edition books on purpose? No one was supposed to have them, so no need to say what they are. :smallbiggrin:

Krrth
2008-04-19, 10:42 PM
Actually, the Lawnchair o' Doom would down antediluvians easily. Heck, CAIN himself would probably fall prey to it.

How? As written, Cain is pretty much immune to anything and everything, including nukes.

FlyMolo
2008-04-19, 11:17 PM
I have no idea what the heck is going on here.

Or what anyone is talking about. Awesomesauce, though.

comicshorse
2008-04-19, 11:43 PM
I was just having a look at the level 10 powers in the old Vampire: Players Handbook.
Level 10 Presence you can affect the dreams of everyone in the world.
Level 10 Auspex, you automatically know all the secrets oand weaknesses of everyone you see/
Level 10 Protean, you turn into a miniature sun.
That's the kind of power level the Antedeliuvians operate on !

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-19, 11:48 PM
Cain, as a vampire, is still an object.

Which means he can be disabled...by a low level mage spell/power/whatever you wanna name it.

Then, you shatter the lawn chair and brag about defeating the first vampire with a low level X.

Rutee
2008-04-19, 11:53 PM
This is Cain. He has 10s in everything. He dodges your spell with Celerity 10, then mindrapes you into being his minion with Dominate 10.

Krrth
2008-04-19, 11:54 PM
Cain, as a vampire, is still an object.

Which means he can be disabled...by a low level mage spell/power/whatever you wanna name it.

Then, you shatter the lawn chair and brag about defeating the first vampire with a low level X.
There is some debate about that, actually. In one of the mage books, they mention removing vampirism. It cannot be done with magic. You have to win a contested roll against the universe to succeed.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-19, 11:59 PM
But you're NOT removing it. Just neutralizing it.

Krrth
2008-04-20, 12:01 AM
But you're NOT removing it. Just neutralizing it.

As far as the universe is concerned, it's the same thing. Besides, how are you going to break a chair with fortitude 10?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-04-20, 12:04 AM
I have no idea what the heck is going on here.

Or what anyone is talking about. Awesomesauce, though.

Might want to check this out:

http://www.white-wolf.com/downloads.php?category_id=14

Rutee
2008-04-20, 12:17 AM
Wouldn't Vampire -> Lawn Chair require Death Magic too? I mean really, Matter would be more for Prometheans and whatnot, not an undead.

Krrth
2008-04-20, 12:20 AM
Wouldn't Vampire -> Lawn Chair require Death Magic too? I mean really, Matter would be more for Prometheans and whatnot, not an undead.

I think OWoD used matter for vampired. I could be wrong, though. I've been playing Nwod mage enough that the rules are starting to blur.

TehJhu
2008-04-20, 12:26 AM
you turn into a miniature sun.


Vampire....




a miniature sun.


Vampire....



a miniature sun.


VAMPIRE!

Krrth
2008-04-20, 12:37 AM
Vampire....




Vampire....



VAMPIRE!
Yep. Unfortunately, the ones that could do that were pretty much immune to the sun to begin with. Plus, the power states that it doesn't hurt themselves.

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-20, 01:18 AM
This is Cain. He has 10s in everything. He dodges your spell with Celerity 10, then mindrapes you into being his minion with Dominate 10.

Or just walk around with Obfuscate 10 up, which makes it physically impossible to acknowledge his existence. Or worse yet, uses Obtenebration 10 to wrap you in the Abyss and instantly destroy you via Paradox.

Heck, White Wolf even gave rules for Cain in the Gehenna rulebook. You know what their rule for encountering Cain was?

You lose.

In black and white, right there, from White Wolf themselves.


I think OWoD used matter for vampired. I could be wrong, though. I've been playing Nwod mage enough that the rules are starting to blur.

It did use Matter for Vampires.

TehJhu
2008-04-20, 01:25 AM
Heck, White Wolf even gave rules for Cain in the Gehenna rulebook. You know what their rule for encountering Cain was?

You lose.

I remembered that. I expected them to do the same thing in the CofC books for things like Azathoth or Cthulhu, but no luck.

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-20, 01:46 AM
I remembered that. I expected them to do the same thing in the CofC books for things like Azathoth or Cthulhu, but no luck.

To be fair, Azathoth wouldn't have needed to do anything as meeting him inside the far realms would have driven your PC mad. Even then, your PC was so fantastically insignificant compared to Azathoth that you shouldn't even be noticed.

As for Cthulhu, well.. He can be beaten. Look at the boat-to-the-brain trick. He's merely a priest, and isn't an Old One or Elder God.

Now had they included something that would legitimately try to kill you and was an Old One or Elder God, then yes--that would probably have been their rule.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-20, 03:30 AM
Wouldn't Vampire -> Lawn Chair require Death Magic too? I mean really, Matter would be more for Prometheans and whatnot, not an undead.

Yes.

People who say "cross-platform Mages in Whitewolf are t3h uber" tend to forget that, by the main Mage handbook, affecting a vampire with, well, anything requires both life and entropy, and likewise affecting a werewolf requires life and spirit.

And no, a vampire is not an "object". Not in D&D, not in Whitewolf, not anywhere outside C++.

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-20, 03:44 AM
People who say "cross-platform Mages in Whitewolf are t3h uber" tend to forget that, by the main Mage handbook, affecting a vampire with, well, anything requires both life and entropy, and likewise affecting a werewolf requires life and spirit.

Some STs run things differently. I allow a Mage to affect a Vampire's body with Matter and entropy, as a vampire is a essentially an externally powered corpse. I also allow a Mage with Life and Prime to "supercharge" his buddies with just enough pure mana to give them a bonus to their physical stats. It comes with serious side-effects, but it's basically like watching a werewolf trip on PCP. Suddenly, he cares even less than normal about being wounded.

neochaos
2008-04-20, 04:24 AM
Caine cannot even die without God's forgiveness. Everyone who attacks him gets seven times more damage back. He can be a Dark Father, or Fisher King, but either way, he's invincible

graymachine
2008-04-20, 10:20 AM
In regards to Ravnos, I'll gives some brief recap of what happened in the Time of Thin Blood supplement; there's more detail if anyone's interested. Ravnos woke up in India, the original home of Clan Ravnos before the Kindred of the East chased them out in ancient times. He awoke because a powerful ravnos (I'll use lower-case to denote someone of the clan and upper-case to denote the ante) had come out of torpor, summoned an army of ravnos from all over Europe, Asia, and Africa, and went to war with the KotE for the Middle Kingdom, as it were. The war proceeded for about a week or so, the ravnos leader bringing more and more powerful vampires to bear while the KotE were pretty much crushing them (something about all of them being all able to turn into 20 ft. tall horrors with tentacles coming out all sides.) As a side note, the typhoon that slammed everything within hundreds of miles was a result of the KotE using their allies to bring in cloud cover that "blotted out the sun" so the vamps could fight through the day. It states in the ToTB book that when ever a large number of vampires of a clan die at the same time it disturbs the slumber of more powerful vampires. Ravnos himself woke up eventually and the KotE suddenly started losing, very badly. His presence in the world attracted the attention of pretty much all the supernaturals in the world that could rub two brain cells together and there was a massive rush on all sides to India. Werewolves were present, as they are in the narration, plus you couldn't doubt them coming to stop something that's pretty much a talon of the Wyrm. The battle doesn't go well for anyone, really, since Ravnos is more or less mindless with the Thirst and is killing his own progeny to feed, waves of mind-warping illusion pouring off endlessly from him. The Technocracy launches it's Spirit Nuke, which kills everything supernatural, except for those out of the range and Ravnos himself. Ravnos moves about the field mindlessly feeding as best he can as the leader of the KotE (can't remember the term) releases the clouds, her timing matching up with the Technocracy. The "mirrors in space" that they reposition as simply the Techie way of casting the rote that they use, listed elsewhere, that is a Prime 6 effect. The rote basically manifested four suns in the sky over the valley. Ravnos ran around on fire, then fell apart into a pile of ash. Then all of the remaining Ravnos in the world frenzy for the next week, seeking each other out and killing one another. If I recall correctly, the Technocracy expended over half of it's total resources on it, including clean up and cover up.

That summarized, I'll just take some random shots. In regards to mages turning Antediluvians into lawn chairs or some such, I would point the ST to several rules discussions in the Mage books about Time magick. The idea is, basically, really old things build up a momentum of existence and since vampire, for some reason, are "natural beings" as far as paradox is concerned, you whipping out crazy vulgarness makes me think that Wrinkle is probably going to want to have a nice talk with you. Furthermore, there are rules located in the antagonist section about vampires that state vampires has some natural counter-magic (I think it's simply generation), which means Antediluvians have a fair bit. If it's Tremere himself for example, who is the second youngest of them (excluding all of the weirdness around Saulot), I'm pretty sure the ST could more or less laugh at what the mage is trying to do to him and then do something really, really upsetting for the mage. I'm sure the ST would be willing to roll dice if the player insists, but it'd just be a formality.

The point thats been made a couple of times now is really how it is; if you want to include the Antediluvians in the game you build challenges around them. The only point in which their stats should become relevant is if you are running an Antediluvian Game, but then your going to need to build a lot of the structure around the top (9-10 abilities, etc.) If you don't you'll have to end up doing what WW had to for several ante, especially Gangrel, in Gehenna; faut them out. If you just want more information about them you could pick up the Gehenna book for the End of the World; it discusses the Antediluvian directly. If your wanting more flavor, history, and paranoia about them you would have to buy all of the books that have been published for VtM, more or less, and mine them. You'll, at the very least, figure out that Saulot is the about the most evil thing in the old WoD.

graymachine
2008-04-20, 10:24 AM
Some STs run things differently. I allow a Mage to affect a Vampire's body with Matter and entropy, as a vampire is a essentially an externally powered corpse. I also allow a Mage with Life and Prime to "supercharge" his buddies with just enough pure mana to give them a bonus to their physical stats. It comes with serious side-effects, but it's basically like watching a werewolf trip on PCP. Suddenly, he cares even less than normal about being wounded.

Actually, matter functions as per life on vampires; life magic has no direct effect on them.

What was the player's reasoning for that rote avoiding pattern damage on the subject?

EDIT: Spelling and grammar.

Danzaver
2008-04-20, 01:56 PM
Ok, I know that they are damn strong, and some of their backstory, but I don't know their actual spec. White Wolf did so f***ing nice job making me curious about some of their settings, but not giving enough explanation, or sources, or blurring all their damn thing, or spliting all their settings in completely different books, or just give me some kind of index so I just can find it myself!!!!

....ok, ok. Where was I? oh, anyone who knows Antediluvian specs, or where I could find it, please let me know. I'm most curious about Saulot, the mastermind, but some others like Zapathasura are still cool.

I think they are not meant to have stats, but having said that, I have a book which I believe has the stats of several of them in it, as well as adventures involving getting to meet Caine. o.O

The book is called Gehenna, and offers three different scenarios for running an end of the world campaign.

Kurald Galain
2008-04-20, 05:05 PM
Some STs run things differently.
Yeah, I'm sure they do, but you're talking about what some people are house ruling whereas I was talking about what it says in the rulebook.

Mage: the Ascension core rulebook, page 280. Look it up.



Actually, matter functions as per life on vampires; life magic has no direct effect on them.
No, I'm afraid you made that up. The rulebook clearly states "life and entropy", not matter. Page 280, again.

graymachine
2008-04-20, 06:11 PM
Yeah, I'm sure they do, but you're talking about what some people are house ruling whereas I was talking about what it says in the rulebook.

Mage: the Ascension core rulebook, page 280. Look it up.



No, I'm afraid you made that up. The rulebook clearly states "life and entropy", not matter. Page 280, again.

Damn, you found out my dastardly plan to have vampires treated as objects!

:smallconfused:

TehJhu
2008-04-20, 07:14 PM
Still no werewolf love :smallfrown:

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-20, 09:53 PM
Mage: the Ascension core rulebook, page 280. Look it up.

I never said that wasn't a rule, but I'm saying that bringing that into the discussion doesn't change the end result. Some people just plain run things differently.

EDIT:


What was the player's reasoning for that rote avoiding pattern damage on the subject?

There wasn't any, so anyone he used it on lost a number of physical dots equal to the physical dots they temporarily gained after an hour.

Eksar Lindisfar
2008-04-21, 08:15 AM
I have something to say about Cain...knowing where WW guys get him from, I will quote the original source of Cain


"Not so; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over," ..."put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him."

which in terms of RP means he´s just unbeatable, since pretty much is the same that WW wrote about him

leperkhaun
2008-04-21, 08:37 AM
I have something to say about Cain...knowing where WW guys get him from, I will quote the original source of Cain



which in terms of RP means he´s just unbeatable, since pretty much is the same that WW wrote about him

I read somewhere that cain was to the antedeluvians what the antedeluvians were to normal humans.

Cuddly
2008-04-21, 11:30 AM
I never said that wasn't a rule, but I'm saying that bringing that into the discussion doesn't change the end result. Some people just plain run things differently.

So what was the point about mentioning what the core rulebook said of Cain? That you need to wank your vampire fanboyism or what?

Ascension
2008-04-21, 12:23 PM
I read somewhere that cain was to the antedeluvians what the antedeluvians were to normal humans.

And Chuck Norris is to Cain what Cain is to the Antediluvians?

Serenity
2008-04-21, 12:56 PM
No, Chuck Norris is Caine.

TehJhu
2008-04-21, 01:05 PM
Cain is a Taxi driver in New York.

Go play Bloodlines if you don't believe me.

The Gilded Duke
2008-04-21, 06:28 PM
There was an optional sidebar in the Gehenna book that I enjoyed. While Gehenna largly seemed to be focused on players surviving unfinished business between Caine, God and the Antidiluvians the book suggested another character that could be added. Able, the first wraith come back to either redeem or destroy his brother.

I do have to say though, I like the lessening of metaplot in nWOD far more then the metaplot of oWOD.

TehJhu
2008-04-21, 06:37 PM
I liked some of the over arcing plot on oWoD.

But I didn't like how everything was destined to end so soon, especially as a werewolf player where the subtitle was litterally: The Apocolypse.

And even more mad that Caine and the vamps did all the Apocolyptic stuff, with the garou shunted aside yet again :smallfrown:

Just Alex
2008-04-21, 06:49 PM
Cain is a Taxi driver in New York.

Go play Bloodlines if you don't believe me.

You have to play a Malkav to get that ending.

It's like the story of the blind bats and the elephant whereinthisisanallegoryforrealityandthewaytheclans seeit.
It takes a Malkav to really get it.

TehJhu
2008-04-21, 06:51 PM
You have to play a Malkav to get that ending.

It's like the story of the blind bats and the elephant whereinthisisanallegoryforrealityandthewaytheclans seeit.
It takes a Malkav to really get it.

No you don't, I beat it as a Tory and a Gangrel and it was pretty obvious Caine was the dude in the taxi who wore sunglasses at night.

Arcane_Secrets
2008-04-21, 08:04 PM
I think that there were stats for Shaitan, the Baali clan-founder, in the crossover book that took place in Mexico.

kyz
2008-04-21, 09:16 PM
Cain is a Taxi driver in New York.

Go play Bloodlines if you don't believe me.

More like Los Angeles.

Just Alex
2008-04-21, 10:14 PM
Mind you, LA in standard OWoD is a horrifying anarch territory. There's a sociopathic 5th gen with a bloodbonded 6th gen wandering around

TheElfLord
2008-04-21, 11:30 PM
Mage: the Ascension core rulebook, page 280. Look it up.



No, I'm afraid you made that up. The rulebook clearly states "life and entropy", not matter. Page 280, again.

Normally I wouldn't mention this, but because you were kinda snobish about it, I"m going to.

Pg 280 states, "To affect vampires directly, mages need both life and matter due to the Quintessence-infused blood sustaining the animate corpse. So yes the rulebook is quite clear on that page. It just doesn't say what you said it says.

I'm using the Mage:the Ascension Revised book for my quote.