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Verruckt
2008-04-25, 06:27 PM
A place to post and discuss your favorite mecha designs, no genre limitations:

For realism I go with the mechs from Gasaraki, for sheer coolness, Wing Zero Custom.

Blayze
2008-04-25, 06:36 PM
Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. I mean, just take a look at the *size* of that thing!

[/thread]

Rutee
2008-04-25, 06:39 PM
I'm rather fond of the SMSC Angelg (http://srwog.velv.net/mecha_images/angelg.png), since angelic stylings are awesome. The pink trim detracts slightly, but still.

Tengu
2008-04-25, 06:45 PM
My personal favorite will always be Koryuoh (http://www.mahq.net/mecha/srw/og2/srg-03t.jpg)/Ryukooh (http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b288/blueapple0a1/Blog/908199_pcgames0625srwog_11.jpg).

BizzaroStormy
2008-04-25, 06:47 PM
I dont know if this is fanmade or appeared somewhere else but it looks friggin awesome.

Gundam Epyon Custom
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii294/Heavy_ArmsChaos9/epyon.jpg

hanzo66
2008-04-25, 06:47 PM
I like the Tau battlesuits. The Chaos Defiler is also pretty cool.

I have a fondness for Spider-legged Mecha, so any of those are awesome in my eyes.

Verruckt
2008-04-25, 07:03 PM
I dont know if this is fanmade or appeared somewhere else but it looks friggin awesome.

Gundam Epyon Custom
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii294/Heavy_ArmsChaos9/epyon.jpg

whoa... thats up there with the Talgaese III on the cool scale, but as far as i know it's not canon (though it should be T-T)

edit: scratch that, i think this may also exist in model form since i have a resculpt of the original wing gundam lying around here somewhere that bears design similarities (like the name written on the wings)

Seraph
2008-04-25, 09:10 PM
RX-93-2 Hi-Nu Gundam. you do not **** with Amuro Ray.

TheThan
2008-04-25, 09:32 PM
If powered armor counts,

Karchev the Terrible looks pretty awesome. (http://www.privateerpress.com/WARMACHINE/gallery/default.php?level=picture&id=113)

Rutee
2008-04-25, 10:52 PM
you do not **** with Amuro Ray.

O rilly? (http://youtube.com/watch?v=vtfon4QtA9U&feature=related)
Character Limit..

thubby
2008-04-25, 11:20 PM
jehuty (http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l50/adeadthief/1158427427693.jpg) i just love the way she moves, its so cool

i also like the "realism" of knightmares (code geass) and armored cores

Verruckt
2008-04-26, 12:32 AM
If powered armor counts,

Karchev the Terrible looks pretty awesome. (http://www.privateerpress.com/WARMACHINE/gallery/default.php?level=picture&id=113)

stupid black curtain stupid big axe stupid huge stupid Khador!

ahem

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-26, 12:33 AM
I'm not all that versed in giant robots. But I'm a bit of a fan of Type: The End from Eureka 7

Here's (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xYYYaW6rNCU) some AMV someone did.

Attilargh
2008-04-26, 02:43 AM
I think I'll have to go with the Lancelot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knightmare_Frame#Lancelot) of Code Geass. It looks so pretty and moves so well, as do the Gawain and the Vincent. And the GN-001 Gundam Exia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GN-001_Gundam_Exia) is also pretty badass.

Fri
2008-04-26, 02:55 AM
I had certain weakness for the original Valkyrie. My most favourite mech ever. Well, I also love fighter jets, so it isn't really fair.

The AV-98 Ingram in patlabor is also cool. It actually made with coolness in its design by the manufacturer, because as a police mech it had to be cool to sway the masses, but intimidating to threaten the criminals.

Oh, and wanzers. Definetely and wanzers.

Closet_Skeleton
2008-04-26, 05:04 AM
I can't choose:

Madcat from Battletech
Freedom Gundam from Gundam SEED (my opinion here is biased due to how awesome the Master Grade model kit is) isn't the best design but is cool in action
Does the SDF Macross count?
I have a soft spot for some of the original Power Ranger's Zords.

I seem to prefer real robots, since I think this is an awesome design: http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/macross.htm and I just happened to have had a toy of it before I'd ever watched any anime.

LurkerInPlayground
2008-04-26, 10:09 PM
Whatever the flaws of the show, I liked Evangelions. Titanic biomechanical monsters kept in check by technology and controlled by direct neural interfacing?
So cool.

I'm also partial to the steampunk armor of The Vision of Escaflowne. The Guymelefs are not armor per se, but the cockpit is in the head/chest section, so striking the "vitals" of the mech kills the pilot. The ones possessed by the Zaibach (evil industrial empire) are particularly cool, what with the ability to shoot quicksilver spear cannons at their foes. . .and flamethrowers. The ones possessed by the Dragonslayers squadron cloak and fly to boot.

Nebo_
2008-04-26, 10:42 PM
http://battlecollege.wikispaces.com/space/showimage/karchev.jpg

Karchev the Terrible. He's not actually a mecha, more of a torso in a Warjack, but the premise is about the same.

GoC
2008-04-27, 12:12 AM
I've always wondered: why do people like mecha?
They seem... childish.
Essentially superheroes (with even less realism and common sense) but bigger.:smallyuk:

Rutee
2008-04-27, 12:15 AM
I've always wondered: why do people like mecha?
They seem... childish.
Essentially superheroes (with even less realism and common sense) but bigger.:smallyuk:

Super Robots are big metal Superheroes, yes. Real Robots are more awesome then normal military tech, generally (Except, of course, when normal Military tech explicitly tries to mimic it.. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clny6teU5ik)), and fulfill a similar purpose.

Honestly, if you have to ask, they're not really for you. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but the appeal is harder to intellectually explain :smalltongue:

Attilargh
2008-04-27, 12:20 AM
They seem... childish.
What's wrong with that? Verily, 'tis a sad world we live in if one, upon growing ever older, loses the right to enjoy a bit of good, old-fashioned nonsense with big everything now and then.

Blayze
2008-04-27, 12:48 AM
I've always wondered: why do people like mecha?
They seem... childish.
Essentially superheroes (with even less realism and common sense) but bigger.:smallyuk:

"Don't believe in yourself! I believe in you! Believe in me, who believes in you!"

If I had to choose, I'd take epic nonsense any day.

Talkkno
2008-04-27, 01:01 AM
I've always wondered: why do people like mecha?
They seem... childish.
Essentially superheroes (with even less realism and common sense) but bigger.:smallyuk:

QFT, though i always like the Goalith from Starcraft given that it makes a little more sense since its designed for urban combat, where i can see the decreased speed compared to a wheeled vechilie as a fair trade of for increased flexibility in choices how it can move and such.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b57/talkkno/Starcraft/Goliath_Combat_Walker_by_Jun89.jpg

Rutee
2008-04-27, 01:09 AM
Mecha never make realistic sense. Larger surface area makes for an easier target, which is pretty much always bad. You're better off with something closer to the ground, even if that's a wheeled vehicle. Never, ever fool yourself on the realism of them.

And honestly, I don't see how a humanoid profile is useful in urban warfare either.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-27, 01:27 AM
I have to second Jehuty, and its "brother" Anubis is also pretty freakin' sweet. For sheer intimidation factor (and awesome theme music), the Granzon is also good.

Also, who cares about mecha realism? They're awesome.

Drascin
2008-04-27, 04:49 AM
Mecha never make realistic sense. Larger surface area makes for an easier target, which is pretty much always bad. You're better off with something closer to the ground, even if that's a wheeled vehicle. Never, ever fool yourself on the realism of them.

And honestly, I don't see how a humanoid profile is useful in urban warfare either.

Yeah. Even for urban combat, where wheeled vehicles have more problems, the nearest thing we might get (and this is doubtful for a handful of reasons as well) is powered human mech-armor, ala Tau battlesuits.

But who cares? If I watched things only for their supposed "realism", I would only watch the news, as 80% of "realistic" fiction crumbles under its own weight anyway. At least mecha shows are honest about it - "yes, we know this is impossible. No, we don't give a damn. Want some good battles and cool lost technology?" :smalltongue:

Also, what Attilargh said. The moment I decry a show solely for being "childish", please shoot me in the head because it has stopped working :smallbiggrin:

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-27, 07:07 AM
I know I, for one intend to never grow up. And I seem to be fairly successful at this endeavor.

Giant Robots are awesome, and that's all that matters.

Blayze
2008-04-27, 08:50 AM
I can't believe I forgot to provide these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX0fIKP40mg) three (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s65n0PmvIm4) links (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVFo9MvgT2g).

Warning, those three videos *will* spoil GaoGaiGar and/or Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Especially the last one.

ZeroNumerous
2008-04-27, 09:10 AM
Mecha never make realistic sense. Larger surface area makes for an easier target, which is pretty much always bad. You're better off with something closer to the ground, even if that's a wheeled vehicle. Never, ever fool yourself on the realism of them

Except when you're low to the ground and a single man with an RPG penetrates your outer armor and kills the entire crew in one shot. A well built mecha would have an armored exoskeleton intended to absorb damage with an armored indoskeleton to protect the pilot.

As for a humanoid construction being more useful in ground combat: Stand at a corner of a street and extend your right/left arm out around the street. Now imagine that you are holding a gun and that it contains a camera sitting on top of it. Tanks are limited to your view on the ground, whereas a humanoid mecha would be capable of looking around corners without exposing its enter physical body to attack.

Further, mecha are intended for space combat, as an AMBAC system allows you to rotate in place without expending as much fuel as a starfighter. Urban combat utility is actually an afterthought. :smalltongue:

Coolest Mecha Design: Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann, which has already been said in this thread.

Bryn
2008-04-27, 09:28 AM
The Warhound Titan, hands down, for me. Feel free to dismiss my opinion as a rabid 40k fan :smallbiggrin:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Bestofshow/1287-40K-VEHICLE--BRONZE.jpg

beautiful

Swordguy
2008-04-27, 09:35 AM
Macross/Robotech/Battletech Unseen.

(Battletech Mechs weren't stolen, per se - FASA bought the license to use the designs from somebody who wasn't authorized to sell said license).

There's a reason for their size in Robotech/Macross (Zentraedi) - and the size is justified in Battletech explicitly because armor penetration doesn't really exist. Armor has to be ablated off - it's the triumph of defensive over offensive technology.

black dragoon
2008-04-27, 09:48 AM
I'm going with Aura Phantasm(these were concept sketches for Aura battler Dunbine) Why? Because when three pictures make me wanna do a seting based around giant killer fantasy mecha I've gotta give it props. That and the good ol' Sazabi from Char's Counterattack let's face thata thing is a beast and a half.

LBO
2008-04-27, 09:55 AM
The Warhound Titan, hands down, for me. Feel free to dismiss my opinion as a rabid 40k fan :smallbiggrin:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Bestofshow/1287-40K-VEHICLE--BRONZE.jpg

beautiful

Mars pattern is prettier.

Also, you want a beautiful Warhound? THIS is beautiful (http://radojavor.deviantart.com/art/Titan-41909667). I almost cried when I saw it.

Attilargh
2008-04-27, 10:00 AM
ZeroNumerous: Most if not all of the functions you describe can be done just as well by adding proper armour and retractable appendages to a tank, and you don't really need legs for space combat, either. See, the problem with mecha is that one could surpass their battlefield performance by taking everything used to justify their existence and slapping it on a, say, attack helicopter or something.

But that's all irrelevant because mecha are cool and fun to look at.

warty goblin
2008-04-27, 10:35 AM
ZeroNumerous: Most if not all of the functions you describe can be done just as well by adding proper armour and retractable appendages to a tank, and you don't really need legs for space combat, either. See, the problem with mecha is that one could surpass their battlefield performance by taking everything used to justify their existence and slapping it on a, say, attack helicopter or something.

But that's all irrelevant because mecha are cool and fun to look at.

Exactly, if you are gonna be putting in double layers of exo-endoskeleton armor, something like a tank is still more efficient, because it has less surface area. If the tank and the mech have the same maximum power output for their propulsion mechanisms, the tank can then carry thicker armor and travel at the same speed because it has less surface area. Morover, for a double layered armor system, a tank's simpler geometry makes this far easier to engineer, which will lower the production and design costs. A tank's lower profile and center of mass will also allow it to mount larger conventional (aka, not direct-energy weapons). Simply put, putting a big shell firing cannon on the shoulders of your mecha will create significant torque, which makes it really quite difficult for said mecha to keep from being knocked over, compared to the tank, which will generate significantly less torque for the same size gun since it is fired from much closer to the ground.

Now there is one possible use of mechs that I can come up with, anti-infantry support in an urban setting. As I pointed out above, you can mount more armor and guns on a tank, and an attack helicopter equivilent is good for close air support. Both tanks and helicopters however are expensive, and, baring some sort of bizarrely efficient flight system, flying vehicles are just not able to mount as much armor as ground based ones. Hence I could see some sort of relatively small mech being somewhat useful for close support with heavy anti-infantry weapons, because it would be both cheaper to operate and more durable than a helicopter, yet still cheaper than a tank. It would of course most likely lose in a fight with either one of these alternatives, but so do a lot of things that remain relevant. Here the higher profile of the mech would actually be an advantage as well, as it would be able to fire over cover and have good LoS to deal with snipers and indirect fire weapons like mortars, while having the armor to shrug off most infantry weapons.

Such mechs would likely be pretty small, maybe three meters tall at the outside, and armed only with high rate of fire infantry killers, heavy machine guns, flamethrowers and so on. Maybe a small compliment of light missiles for those 'out of reach' foes, but nothing particularly high tech or expensive.,

GoC
2008-04-27, 10:45 AM
Except when you're low to the ground and a single man with an RPG penetrates your outer armor and kills the entire crew in one shot. A well built mecha would have an armored exoskeleton intended to absorb damage with an armored indoskeleton to protect the pilot.
The problem here is a similar sized tank will always have thicker armor, a lower profile and no weak "legs".


As for a humanoid construction being more useful in ground combat: Stand at a corner of a street and extend your right/left arm out around the street. Now imagine that you are holding a gun and that it contains a camera sitting on top of it. Tanks are limited to your view on the ground, whereas a humanoid mecha would be capable of looking around corners without exposing its enter physical body to attack.
That's what missiles are for. What really kills mecha are these. I created a pretty simple plan that would have killed all the mecha in Code Geass very easily (yes I watched that show until Lancelot made it intolerable).


Further, mecha are intended for space combat, as an AMBAC system allows you to rotate in place without expending as much fuel as a starfighter.
Turrets or missiles will do better.


Now there is one possible use of mechs that I can come up with, anti-infantry support in an urban setting. As I pointed out above, you can mount more armor and guns on a tank, and an attack helicopter equivilent is good for close air support. Both tanks and helicopters however are expensive, and, baring some sort of bizarrely efficient flight system, flying vehicles are just not able to mount as much armor as ground based ones. Hence I could see some sort of relatively small mech being somewhat useful for close support with heavy anti-infantry weapons, because it would be both cheaper to operate and more durable than a helicopter, yet still cheaper than a tank. It would of course most likely lose in a fight with either one of these alternatives, but so do a lot of things that remain relevant. Here the higher profile of the mech would actually be an advantage as well, as it would be able to fire over cover and have good LoS to deal with snipers and indirect fire weapons like mortars, while having the armor to shrug off most infantry weapons.
The problem is shoulder launched guided missiles.
And that mecha is probably more expensive and worse armored than a light tank or an anti-infantry vehicle.
I still agree that there might be a role for them in urban warfare due to their ability to step over burnt cars but attack helicopters and infantry carrying missiles or rpgs would both destroy them as that leg armor can't be very thick without a massively better engine then today is possible. And if you've got engines that good then you can just armor the helicopter!:smallbiggrin:

LurkerInPlayground
2008-04-27, 10:49 AM
Exactly, if you are gonna be putting in double layers of exo-endoskeleton armor, something like a tank is still more efficient, because it has less surface area. If the tank and the mech have the same maximum power output for their propulsion mechanisms, the tank can then carry thicker armor and travel at the same speed because it has less surface area. Morover, for a double layered armor system, a tank's simpler geometry makes this far easier to engineer, which will lower the production and design costs. A tank's lower profile and center of mass will also allow it to mount larger conventional (aka, not direct-energy weapons). Simply put, putting a big shell firing cannon on the shoulders of your mecha will create significant torque, which makes it really quite difficult for said mecha to keep from being knocked over, compared to the tank, which will generate significantly less torque for the same size gun since it is fired from much closer to the ground.

Now there is one possible use of mechs that I can come up with, anti-infantry support in an urban setting. As I pointed out above, you can mount more armor and guns on a tank, and an attack helicopter equivilent is good for close air support. Both tanks and helicopters however are expensive, and, baring some sort of bizarrely efficient flight system, flying vehicles are just not able to mount as much armor as ground based ones. Hence I could see some sort of relatively small mech being somewhat useful for close support with heavy anti-infantry weapons, because it would be both cheaper to operate and more durable than a helicopter, yet still cheaper than a tank. It would of course most likely lose in a fight with either one of these alternatives, but so do a lot of things that remain relevant. Here the higher profile of the mech would actually be an advantage as well, as it would be able to fire over cover and have good LoS to deal with snipers and indirect fire weapons like mortars, while having the armor to shrug off most infantry weapons.

Such mechs would likely be pretty small, maybe three meters tall at the outside, and armed only with high rate of fire infantry killers, heavy machine guns, flamethrowers and so on. Maybe a small compliment of light missiles for those 'out of reach' foes, but nothing particularly high tech or expensive.,
We could just call it powered armor, size it down, and slap it on every soldier.

While they're not mechs, powered armor is equally cool.

Anyway, isn't part of the justification of mechs that they can walk? You know, like up mountain slopes and such?

As for the Zone of Enders setting, orbital frames are justified by use of Super-Phlebotinum (Metatron), with nearly every conceivable utility a weapons engineer could ever want.

Orbital frames, therefore, aren't so much weapons of practical design, they're flying gods, built to glorify their pilot.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-04-27, 10:50 AM
I can't believe I forgot to provide these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX0fIKP40mg) three (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s65n0PmvIm4) links (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVFo9MvgT2g).

Warning, those three videos *will* spoil GaoGaiGar and/or Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. Especially the last one.

Hah! Your huge hammer is no match for our Banhammer! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex29l7Sj62Y)


The Warhound Titan, hands down, for me. Feel free to dismiss my opinion as a rabid 40k fan :smallbiggrin:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Bestofshow/1287-40K-VEHICLE--BRONZE.jpg

beautiful



And honestly, I don't see how a humanoid profile is useful in urban warfare either.

Which is why I like Gargants. They work literally because they are evocative and impressive (waaaagh!)

warty goblin
2008-04-27, 11:09 AM
We could just call it powered armor, size it down, and slap it on every soldier.

While they're not mechs, powered armor is equally cool.


That's pretty much what I've done in the Sci-Fi setting of my own personal creation actually. Mechs are non-existant, but power armor is a force to be reckoned with. One of the central tenants of my setting is incrediably good armor, and the power armor is basically small pieces of starship combat armor strapped over your body. Sure it weighs upwards of 300kg, and you can no longer reach your arms around behind your back, but on the plus side, the only way for a dude with a plasma gun to kill you is to shoot you enough to heat up the armor to the point it bakes you alive inside it, which takes a very long time.

Ironically perhaps, the armor used in urban settings is fairly light, and sometimes even scaled down to partially powered armor to allow for greater speed and mobility. Marine boarding armor however is the heaviest stuff you can get short of a tank. Top speed is something around a fast walk, but you can punch through bulkheads and carry the most powerful weaponry possible.

Bryn
2008-04-27, 11:09 AM
Mars pattern is prettier.

Also, you want a beautiful Warhound? THIS is beautiful (http://radojavor.deviantart.com/art/Titan-41909667). I almost cried when I saw it.

Eh, each to their own, but I disagree on the Mars Pattern being better; more in favour of the industrial look of the Lucius Pattern (the Wolf Class at any rate, not so keen on the Jackal). All are awesome, though. To be more accurate, it's situational: the Mars Pattern has better heraldry and decoration, whereas the Lucius Pattern works extremely well as a grim machine of war and works in more sci-fi related stories. It is the one that would work best with the style of my Imperial Guard, although it would make no sense for them to have one.

As for that picture, though... I am in awe. Radojavor is my new hero :smallbiggrin: All those pictures are so... beautifully... atmospheric.

Rutee
2008-04-27, 11:38 AM
Except when you're low to the ground and a single man with an RPG penetrates your outer armor and kills the entire crew in one shot. A well built mecha would have an armored exoskeleton intended to absorb damage with an armored indoskeleton to protect the pilot.

As for a humanoid construction being more useful in ground combat: Stand at a corner of a street and extend your right/left arm out around the street. Now imagine that you are holding a gun and that it contains a camera sitting on top of it. Tanks are limited to your view on the ground, whereas a humanoid mecha would be capable of looking around corners without exposing its enter physical body to attack.

Further, mecha are intended for space combat, as an AMBAC system allows you to rotate in place without expending as much fuel as a starfighter. Urban combat utility is actually an afterthought. :smalltongue:

Coolest Mecha Design: Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann, which has already been said in this thread.

Except the mecha will expend more fuel just to move; Remember, more surface area. For the same armor plating as the Fighter, you have to have far more mass. More moving parts as well, since, well. Moving parts are heavy, complicated, and liable to failure. And I don't believe a single person with an RPG destroying APCs or Tanks is common, else they wouldn't be used at all. Honestly, I wouldn't see them being used ever. Even if our military is planning on mimicking Funnel technology :smallbiggrin:

Incidentally, Mecha /do/ have a use, but it's not on the battlefield. The Japanese are designing one for use in rescue operations.

And none of that really matters. Because they're still freaking awesome. Also, if you paint one black and red, it blares TROMBE! and goes faster. Alternatively, you can paint it red, and it goes 3x faster.

Seraph
2008-04-27, 12:14 PM
the benerfit of mecha is that nothing demoralizes a ship's crew more than having a humanoid attack ship the size of a 747 cling to your hull and cut you open with a giant lightsaber.

GoC
2008-04-27, 12:53 PM
the benerfit of mecha is that nothing demoralizes a ship's crew more than having a humanoid attack ship the size of a 747 cling to your hull and cut you open with a giant lightsaber.
Right before your fighters blast it to shreds or you fire a torpedo.

Seraph
2008-04-27, 01:04 PM
Right before your fighters blast it to shreds or you fire a torpedo.

any fighter commander who asks his squad to start taking potshots at their own ships needs to be shot.

the best part about mechs is that they can load out far more powerful powerplants and armaments than fighters while keeping the same, if not better maneuverability, as well as bonuses if you handwave something like a psycoframe/mobile trace system that makes a humanoid form more preferable.

really, if you're going to be whining about practicality, then you have no right to watch any show with space combat consisting of more than lasers and railguns at ranges measured in lightseconds.

Rasagal
2008-04-27, 01:08 PM
in all actuality i don't believe there's ever been a mecha cooler than Getter Robo. Foolish mechs with wings and tripods and gargoyles hanging from their butts can have a getter tomahawk in the face. :biggrin:

just feast your eyes on this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxcH86CPqck&feature=related

*please remember. If it's actually Ryoma sitting on the pilot seat the cool factor multiplies by 10*

Thiel
2008-04-27, 01:38 PM
I'd have to say either the AV-98 Ingram or it's replacement the AV-0 Peacemaker from Patlabor. They are some of the few mechas around that seems to make some sense within the premises of the universe.

Also, why should a star fighter use more fuel than a mecha?

Rutee
2008-04-27, 01:51 PM
Right before your fighters blast it to shreds or you fire a torpedo.

Suffice it to say that when Youtube stops sucking, I will have an amusing response.

Talkkno
2008-04-27, 01:55 PM
Ironically perhaps, the armor used in urban settings is fairly light, and sometimes even scaled down to partially powered armor to allow for greater speed and mobility. Marine boarding armor however is the heaviest stuff you can get short of a tank. Top speed is something around a fast walk, but you can punch through bulkheads and carry the most powerful weaponry possible.

That sounds remarkably like Space Marine Tactical Dreadnought Armour.....

Lord Iames Osari
2008-04-27, 02:02 PM
My personal favorite is Wing Gundam Zero Custom (http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k177/LordIames/Mobile%20Suits/PGW-GundamZeroCustom-20.jpg), followed by Gundam (http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k177/LordIames/Mobile%20Suits/Exia.jpg) Exia (http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k177/LordIames/Mobile%20Suits/vlcsnap-269352.png).

Closet_Skeleton
2008-04-27, 02:04 PM
And I don't believe a single person with an RPG destroying APCs or Tanks is common, else they wouldn't be used at all.

Oddly enough, single RPGs killing tanks is very common and tanks have in theory been useless since WW2. Almost every tank or APC that has been taken out of action was only dealt significant damage from a single RPG.

Talkkno
2008-04-27, 02:06 PM
Oddly enough, single RPGs killing tanks is very common and tanks have in theory been useless since WW2. Almost every tank or APC that has been taken out of action was only dealt significant damage from a single RPG.

The first Gulf War?

ArtifexFelicis
2008-04-27, 02:12 PM
I'm throwing my vote in for the Madcat Mrk IV battle mech. 75 Tonnes of awesome. (http://www.solaris7.com/Images/TRO/BattleMechs/madcat.jpg)

It might work one day >.>

warty goblin
2008-04-27, 02:13 PM
That sounds remarkably like Space Marine Tactical Dreadnought Armour.....

Yep, pretty much, although it doesn't look like Terminator armor. The weaponry used by Marine Boarding parties is also radically different from Termie guns. They tend to lack the high rate of fire weapons like Assault Cannons and instead use much slower firing but higher powered (per shot) guns.

This is because everybody encountered on a boarding mission is going to be wearing some form of armor, since ships in my universe fight with their atmospheres compressed into central holding tanks at the core of the vessal, to prevent the crews from being pulped by the shockwave of a four hundred kilogram armor piercing railgun slug cutting through the hull. This means that everyone has to wear an armored vac suit, and the lack of atmosphere makes flamethrower weapons less effective (since you can't suffocate people with the smoke, they'll burn just fine if they carry their own oxident obviously). Also, by the time it gets to boarding, the artificial gravity is usually going to hell, and nothing sucks more than your flamethrower's fire suddenly falling back towards you.

Thus the standard boarding party weapon is a meter+ long shoulder mounted railgun firing high density armor piercing slugs at disgusting speeds. Nothing says "ownage" like firing a weapon like that.

Lord Iames Osari
2008-04-27, 02:26 PM
Oddly enough, single RPGs killing tanks is very common and tanks have in theory been useless since WW2. Almost every tank or APC that has been taken out of action was only dealt significant damage from a single RPG.
That's just silly. How could a role-playing game take out a tank? :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

Attilargh
2008-04-27, 02:29 PM
Have you never seen the Hero system rulebook?

MeklorIlavator
2008-04-27, 02:30 PM
That's just silly. How could a role-playing game take out a tank? :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

One can never tell with exalted....

Drascin
2008-04-27, 02:30 PM
That's just silly. How could a role-playing game take out a tank? :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

Triple 20?

Rutee
2008-04-27, 02:33 PM
Have you never seen the Hero system rulebook?

I don't think it's Armor Piercing just because it's bullet proof...

Mr._Blinky
2008-04-27, 02:35 PM
Isn't the advantage of a mech over a tank that since mechs walk, they can get over more difficult terrain? Think about it, if a tank is faced by a blockade of cars, it needs to either go around or be powerful enough to drive through. A mech just steps over. Same goes for if there's a fallen tree blocking your path.

tyckspoon
2008-04-27, 02:43 PM
In order to step over things your mech either needs to be able to lift its feet very high with real human-style hip joints and balancing (a major engineering challenge) or be tall enough that its normal steps clear most obstacles, which brings you right back to the 'frakking huge target' problem and makes it likely that you'll be smacking its head on lampposts, overpasses, and other such urban brickabrack. A well-designed set of treads can grip and ride up and over most things, especially if you don't mind doing some damage to whatever you're crossing.

Terraoblivion
2008-04-27, 02:46 PM
The tank will just drive over the pile of cars unless it is really tall and steep. Some of the dull Discovery Channel programs about tanks i have watched and 6 in the morning while eating before bed has shown tanks driving over things significantly steeper, taller and more solid than a car. Really tanks are not huge lumbering boxes on wheels, they can be quite fast and are more than able of scaling or smashing most obstacles.

Attilargh
2008-04-27, 03:04 PM
I don't think it's Armor Piercing just because it's bullet proof...
In that case you're not firing it nearly fast enough.

LBO
2008-04-27, 03:34 PM
the best part about mechs is that they can load out far more powerful powerplants and armaments than fighters while keeping the same, if not better maneuverability,
Only real response I can give here is "what the hell are you talking about?"


Oddly enough, single RPGs killing tanks is very common and tanks have in theory been useless since WW2. Almost every tank or APC that has been taken out of action was only dealt significant damage from a single RPG.
Er, air strikes?

Thiel
2008-04-27, 03:49 PM
The tank will just drive over the pile of cars unless it is really tall and steep. Some of the dull Discovery Channel programs about tanks i have watched and 6 in the morning while eating before bed has shown tanks driving over things significantly steeper, taller and more solid than a car. Really tanks are not huge lumbering boxes on wheels, they can be quite fast and are more than able of scaling or smashing most obstacles.

Too true. Seriously, nothing short of a purpose build anti tank barrier or a reinforced concrete structure will stop a modern main battle tank if it manages to get up to speed. They are literally capable of driving through houses.

Seraph
2008-04-27, 03:57 PM
Only real response I can give here is "what the hell are you talking about?"


a mech can load out with a nuclear reactor. a fighter, not so much.

lets use, for example, the RX-78-2 Gundam from the original real Robot show. it is about 18 meters tall, with two beam sabers capable of cutting through more or less anything, a pair of 60mm Vulcan cannons in the head capable of shredding any fighters that come too close, a beam rifle that destroy mobile suits in one shot, and a missile launcher/bazooka that carries missiles the size of a person. among other things, it has rocket thrusters in it's back and feet that give it extreme linear acceleration, as well as both an AMBAC maneuvering system and verniers loaded out in the limbs for extra mobility. not only does the Gundam have greater acceleration and maneuverability than fighters while in space, it has significantly greater armament.



The tank will just drive over the pile of cars unless it is really tall and steep. Some of the dull Discovery Channel programs about tanks i have watched and 6 in the morning while eating before bed has shown tanks driving over things significantly steeper, taller and more solid than a car. Really tanks are not huge lumbering boxes on wheels, they can be quite fast and are more than able of scaling or smashing most obstacles.


now lets see if a tank can drive over a deep trench wider than it is long.

tyckspoon
2008-04-27, 04:08 PM
a mech can load out with a nuclear reactor. a fighter, not so much.


See, if you're going to be creating a miniaturized nuclear reactor and then putting it in an oversized humanoid frame and then calling that an advantage for the mech.. you really ought to consider what you might achieve by creating a miniaturized nuclear reactor and then putting it a jet chassis as well. Frankly the only thing a jet could not achieve that the Gundam uses is beam sabers, because you would not be putting hands on a jet.

Seraph
2008-04-27, 04:13 PM
See, if you're going to be creating a miniaturized nuclear reactor and then putting it in an oversized humanoid frame and then calling that an advantage for the mech.. you really ought to consider what you might achieve by creating a miniaturized nuclear reactor and then putting it a jet chassis as well. Frankly the only thing a jet could not achieve that the Gundam uses is beam sabers, because you would not be putting hands on a jet.

no, not really. the beam rifle alone is bigger than a fighter, by the time you built an ultracompact minovsky fusion reactor, beam cannons, fuel tanks, and the necessary armor into a jet frame, you stop having a fighter and start having a very poorly designed Mobile Armor.

Thiel
2008-04-27, 04:27 PM
a mech can load out with a nuclear reactor. a fighter, not so much.
Why not? If you're capable of fitting it inside a mecha without crippling it's manoeuvrability you should be able to fit it inside a plane.


lets use, for example, the RX-78-2 Gundam from the original real Robot show. it is about 18 meters tall, with two beam sabers capable of cutting through more or less anything, a pair of 60mm Vulcan cannons in the head capable of shredding any fighters that come too close, a beam rifle that destroy mobile suits in one shot, and a missile launcher/bazooka that carries missiles the size of a person. among other things, it has rocket thrusters in it's back and feet that give it extreme linear acceleration, as well as both an AMBAC maneuvering system and verniers loaded out in the limbs for extra mobility. not only does the Gundam have greater acceleration and maneuverability than fighters while in space, it has significantly greater armament.
I fail to see why a fighter shouldn't be able to mount as many weapons. Since it doesn't have to waste mass and power on a land based propulsion it should be able to pack even more weapons. Because of its fixed shape it doesn't have to mount as many attitude thrusters as a mecha which again frees up space for weapons. Mount a few gyroes inside it and you should even be able to use an AMBAC. And since I don't have to fit it with arms and legs I can give it a far more powerfull engine than a mecha




now lets see if a tank can drive over a deep trench wider than it is long.
Depending on the ditch in question it should be able to climb its way out of it.

Blayze
2008-04-27, 05:08 PM
because you would not be putting hands on a jet.

Speak for yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdxxWZkWBkc)

Alright, so it's a spaceship with arms, but such details are merely trivial.

tyckspoon
2008-04-27, 05:10 PM
no, not really. the beam rifle alone is bigger than a fighter...

Gundam (http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/index.htm)
F-15 (http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=101)
F-22 (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f22/f-22-specifications.html)

Either beam rifles are also larger than the Gundams that carry them (they're not, except for a few ridiculously outsized examples) or you need to take another look at the scale you're thinking about.


*hummhummhumm* ZHROUGH ZAA NIGHTTT! It's been a while since I heard that song.

Thiel
2008-04-27, 05:15 PM
Speak for yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdxxWZkWBkc)
Oh please, that show doesn't even take itself serious.

Seraph
2008-04-27, 05:21 PM
Gundam (http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/index.htm)
F-15 (http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=101)
F-22 (http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f22/f-22-specifications.html)

Either beam rifles are also larger than the Gundams that carry them (they're not, except for a few ridiculously outsized examples) or you need to take another look at the scale you're thinking about.


*hummhummhumm* ZHROUGH ZAA NIGHTTT! It's been a while since I heard that song.

scales must be off then. a core fighter definitely isn't longer than a gundam, but it isn't that much smaller than a jet either.

tyckspoon
2008-04-27, 05:41 PM
8.6m long by 3.2 high, with a wingspan of 6.8 meters. The Core Fighter is less than half the size of a real-world jet.. and seems to be armed about as well as one. Which would appear to support my contention that a full-scale jet given Gundam's tech advances would be at least as effective as a Gundam itself.

Cubey
2008-04-27, 06:33 PM
The "Mecha are cool!" versus "Mecha are stupid!" argument here reminds me of this:
http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=142

Now, anti-mecha people stop derailing the thread and pro-mecha go back to pointing out which ones are cool and which are cooler.

black dragoon
2008-04-27, 07:35 PM
Agreed. So let us continue with the pretty things that will blow you up.
F-91 gundam anyone?

BTW: Power armor has been in the works for long time at least in the US. Urban combat actually doesn't favor a very large unit but, legs do help. Weight may not be an issue if recent advances in carbon fiber composites work out and they are still awesome.

Rutee
2008-04-27, 08:35 PM
I still find it vaguely hilarious that my SRW players are the ones providing the most consistent criticism of mecha :smallbiggrin:

How have we not mentioned the OTT ness of the God Gundam? And I'm pretty sure somebody out there is Ryusei for the Nobel Gundam..

Also, just because I went to the trouble to record and upload it:

Mecha lose to jets? O Rilly? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLuCMrCNsvg)

Seraph
2008-04-27, 08:42 PM
How have we not mentioned the OTT ness of the God Gundam? And I'm pretty sure somebody out there is Ryusei for the Nobel Gundam..

THIS HAND OF MINE GLOWS WITH AN AWESOME POWER

Tengu
2008-04-27, 09:05 PM
I still find it vaguely hilarious that my SRW players are the ones providing the most consistent criticism of mecha :smallbiggrin:


The biggest fans know best why what they love so much wouldn't work in reality, after all.

Although I'm sure a field where humanoid vehicles will excel exists, it's yet to be found by the future generation of robotics engineers - and since I'm going to be one of them... wish me luck in making the world a cooler place!

Rutee
2008-04-27, 09:09 PM
Although I'm sure a field where humanoid vehicles will excel exists, it's yet to be found by the future generation of robotics engineers - and since I'm going to be one of them... wish me luck in making the world a cooler place!

The Japanese are building a mecha for use in rescue operations.

Tengu
2008-04-27, 09:13 PM
Alright, not only a real mech but also used to save lives, not take them! That's cool and everyone who disagrees gets a wet and sticky tentacle to the face.

Poison_Fish
2008-04-27, 09:13 PM
Personally, I'm a huge fan of the later mecha designs from Macross.

Mmmmmm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRLs-5MdK_A)

Rutee
2008-04-27, 09:15 PM
Alright, not only a real mech but also used to save lives, not take them! That's cool and everyone who disagrees gets a wet and sticky tentacle to the face.

I disagree? :smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

Also the Macross Mecha look spiffy. Need to research that a bit more.

Tengu
2008-04-27, 09:30 PM
Everyone except weird people who'd enjoy it, who get a d4 up their nose instead, then.

Hawriel
2008-04-27, 10:39 PM
any fighter commander who asks his squad to start taking potshots at their own ships needs to be shot.

the best part about mechs is that they can load out far more powerful powerplants and armaments than fighters while keeping the same, if not better maneuverability, as well as bonuses if you handwave something like a psycoframe/mobile trace system that makes a humanoid form more preferable.

really, if you're going to be whining about practicality, then you have no right to watch any show with space combat consisting of more than lasers and railguns at ranges measured in lightseconds.

Not to pick on you directy but I had to choose some one.

ok I really dont see as the case. Mecha are said to be the ultimat weapon because they look cool. Thats it. Just because a mech has a huge powerful engine does not mean its better because of it. I would say it was a piece of military crap because it REQUIRES the big powerplant. Would it not be better to stick that powerplant in a fighter or gunship and get a better performence? The humanoide body is very agile. On land. We are not built to fly like superman. Thats why real fighterplanes are desined with real life air combat specialists in mind. Hawks, falcons, and Eagles. I know your going to say "Duh Hawriel but mechs fly in space!!!" The stated point that a humanoid mech can turn a 180 degree turn in space is well true. Its true only if every thing els fallows starwars/robotech flight physics. Regardless if its in an atmosphere or vacume. Yes a starfighter can do a 180 turn. With alot less stress on the frame, that meens less chance of damage. For my fictional evidence against your fictional argument I sight Babylon 5.

On land, if I wanted to assalt a city. screw the giant battlemech. I want Infintry. backed up with power armored infintry. Then support with VTOLs and armor. Mechs are just for fast responce and taking out hard targets.

Mecha VS tanks. Ok the only thing different about a mech and a tank is how it moves, and maybe size and type of powerplant. They use the same weapons and armor. Oh right exept for that dumbass gundem lightsaber. Honestrly Id put my mony on a sabot round from an M1A1 against a mecha.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-27, 10:41 PM
Look, people need to stop derailing this thread. Derailing threads is evil, and you don't want to get Cleaved, do you?

By the way, Daizengar.

Poison_Fish
2008-04-27, 11:24 PM
Agreed, no more derailing.

And how about Megas? A scrap mecha is fine too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhY5_hVhkVI)

TheThan
2008-04-27, 11:50 PM
stupid black curtain stupid big axe stupid huge stupid Khador!

ahem

Iím a Protectorate player so I feel your pain.

Closet_Skeleton
2008-04-28, 02:30 AM
Mecha have potential in construction work and I think that it's in Gundam's backstory that the first Mobile Suits were designed to that sort of thing. However although arms would be useful on a construction mecha it doesn't really need legs.

Obrysii
2008-04-28, 06:35 AM
Closet_Skeleton, in Gundam Wing at least, Mobile Suits were originally designed to build Colonies ... however, with the construction of the Tallgeese, combat mobile suits were realized, and thus the change to weaponizing them.


On another note, the Z'Gok E (http://www.mahq.net/MECHA/gundam/0080/msm-07e.htm) has got to be my favorite looking mecha. Something about it being slow, tough, and physically strong. Or maybe it's those giant claws with beam cannons in their palms...

Closet_Skeleton
2008-04-28, 07:09 AM
On another note, the Z'Gok E (http://www.mahq.net/MECHA/gundam/0080/msm-07e.htm) has got to be my favorite looking mecha. Something about it being slow, tough, and physically strong. Or maybe it's those giant claws with beam cannons in their palms...

So it's basically the original Z'Gok but less lame looking?

Fri
2008-04-28, 09:40 AM
Mecha have potential in construction work and I think that it's in Gundam's backstory that the first Mobile Suits were designed to that sort of thing. However although arms would be useful on a construction mecha it doesn't really need legs.

Well, yeah. In the Universal Century setting, mechs started as Balls. The lovely Balls.

Basically a ball with two arm. For building things in space. Then the war started and some wacko decided to put guns on the Ball. And things go uphill from there. I like the Balls, they're cool :D. (so no, I'm not derailing the thread)

For the most realistic use of mech, read patlabor. Not the anime, the anime, though still the most realistic mech show, is a bit less real than the manga. Well, the use of police labor and military labor still didn't quite make sense, but mainly the labors used for construction work.

And yeah, I agree that as much as I love mech, the closest thing we can get now is the exoskeleton suits. There're already a lot of corporation work on that. I thought US military and Japanese corporations already got some working prototipes.

Maybe, we'll got Arm Slaves from Full Metal Panic :smallbiggrin: (Armslaves in that series started as exoskeleton. Faced with the need of bigger power source, they started to built it bigger and bigger, and finally they got the Arm Slaves.)

For Coolest real life mounted mech:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=kFZvXuOIVMs
The spider mech. Freakin cool.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=CD2V8GFqk_Y&feature=related
Closest thing we can get for a mass produced mech. Walking tractor from John Deere. (watch the second and third vids too)

Rutee
2008-04-28, 08:09 PM
[QUOTE=Fri;4257134]Basically a ball with two arm. For building things in space. Then the war started and some wacko decided to put guns on the Ball. And things go uphill from there. I like the Balls, they're cool :D. (so no, I'm not derailing the thread)/QUOTE]

You know, there's a sadistic mission in one of the PS2 Gundam games (I think it was Federation vs. Zeon) called Target Practice. THe adversary is just an arbitrarily huge number of Balls..

GoC
2008-04-28, 08:24 PM
Mecha VS tanks. Ok the only thing different about a mech and a tank is how it moves, and maybe size and type of powerplant. They use the same weapons and armor. Oh right exept for that dumbass gundem lightsaber. Honestrly Id put my mony on a sabot round from an M1A1 against a mecha.
A few other differences:
A. Mecha have a larger surface area so can't put on as much armor.
B. Mecha have a larger cross-section and are easier to hit.
C. Mecha waste space on arms and other things that could be used for weaponry.
D. Mecha require much more maintenance due to moving parts.
E. When a mecha loses one leg it's other one becomes useless, unlike when destroying one of the guns of a battleship.
F. The people in this thread find Mecha so much cooler.:smalltongue:

Obrysii
2008-04-28, 08:27 PM
So it's basically the original Z'Gok but less lame looking?

With some mild upgrades, yes. Cool is the opposite of lame, after all.

GoC
2008-04-28, 08:28 PM
Mecha VS tanks. Ok the only thing different about a mech and a tank is how it moves, and maybe size and type of powerplant. They use the same weapons and armor. Oh right exept for that dumbass gundem lightsaber. Honestrly Id put my mony on a sabot round from an M1A1 against a mecha.
A few other differences:
A. Mecha have a larger surface area so can't put on as much armor.
B. Mecha have a larger cross-section and are easier to hit.
C. Mecha waste space on arms and other things that could be used for weaponry.
D. Mecha require much more maintenance due to moving parts.
E. When a mecha loses one leg it's other one becomes useless, unlike when destroying one of the guns of a battleship.
F. The people in this thread find Mecha so much cooler.:smalltongue:

Obrysii
2008-04-28, 08:35 PM
So it's basically the original Z'Gok but less lame looking?

With some mild upgrades, yes. Cool is the opposite of lame, after all.

Tengu
2008-04-28, 09:46 PM
Ugh, deja vu...

(Imagine it said just like Neo in the first Matrix - the tone of a confused caveman and not even a hint of French accent.)

Obrysii
2008-04-29, 06:43 AM
Ugh, deja vu...

(Imagine it said just like Neo in the first Matrix - the tone of a confused caveman and not even a hint of French accent.)

Sorry, computer hanged up.

On another note, the XMA-01 Rafflesia (http://www.mahq.net/MECHA/GUNDAM/f91/xma-01.htm) is a pretty sweet mech.

black dragoon
2008-04-29, 10:20 AM
YAY! An F91 fan! Gotta love space nazis! ON the Mobilearmor stint I nominate the Big Zam Let's face it that was a real man's mecha.

Bryn
2008-04-29, 01:24 PM
As of today, Forge World have released another Imperial Titan, and this one really puts the humungous in 'humungous mecha'. I mean, wow. (And yes, that is hardly the biggest that the Imperium has, but it's the largest 40k scale model, and thus the largest to have the fantastic level of detail inside and out).

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Titans/reaver/wrscale.jpg (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/reaver1.htm)


Personally, I'm a huge fan of the later mecha designs from Macross.

Mmmmmm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRLs-5MdK_A)

I don't know about the design of the mechas, but that was some pretty awesome CGI animation - a great sense of high speed flying and some nice camerawork. Is all of Macross animated like that?

Rutee
2008-04-29, 02:57 PM
YAY! An F91 fan! Gotta love space nazis! ON the Mobilearmor stint I nominate the Big Zam Let's face it that was a real man's mecha.

Anavel Gato's sexy Neue Ziel shouldn't be discounted.

Seraph
2008-04-29, 03:16 PM
YAY! An F91 fan! Gotta love space nazis! ON the Mobilearmor stint I nominate the Big Zam Let's face it that was a real man's mecha.


Mobile Armor? GP-03 Dendrobium Orchis is a Real Man's mobile armor.

LBO
2008-04-29, 03:52 PM
Okay, I was going to stop posting on this thread, but I just got an email from forgeworld which is, until the Imperator at least, the last word on awesome mecha:

MARS PATTERN REAVER TITAN (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/reaver4.htm)

Edit: ...Okay, I fail.

Bryn
2008-04-29, 04:25 PM
Okay, I was going to stop posting on this thread, but I just got an email from forgeworld which is, until the Imperator at least, the last word on awesome mecha:

MARS PATTERN REAVER TITAN (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/reaver4.htm)

Edit: ...Okay, I fail.

HIVE MIND

OM NOM NOM etc.

Still, the Reaver is awesome enough to be posted twice.

Storm Bringer
2008-04-29, 04:34 PM
their making a 40K scale reaver?

*wets himself in excitment*


now all we need is the Warlord and the Emperor........

GoC
2008-04-29, 05:08 PM
As of today, Forge World have released another Imperial Titan, and this one really puts the humungous in 'humungous mecha'. I mean, wow. (And yes, that is hardly the biggest that the Imperium has, but it's the largest 40k scale model, and thus the largest to have the fantastic level of detail inside and out).
Isn't it interesting that even the biggest mecha are still dwarfed by modern capital ships?

Bryn
2008-04-29, 05:19 PM
Well, a better comparison would be capital ship to capital ship.
http://www.merzo.net/images/10mppexist.gif
http://www.merzo.net/images/10mppBattlefleetGothicCobra.gif
http://www.merzo.net/images/10mppBloodHawk.gif
Supposedly, these are to scale (http://www.merzo.net/) :smalltongue:

Apart from that, yes, huge ships are bigger than huge mechs. Huge mechs are still huge.

tyckspoon
2008-04-29, 05:23 PM
Isn't it interesting that even the biggest mecha are still dwarfed by modern capital ships?

Not really. It's expected in anything that is making even a token nod to reality... it's far simpler to build something really huge in the water than to make something of the same size that must support its own weight. For really hueg mecha you have to go to space. Or just inconsistent scaling and Rule of Cool visuals; Evangelion has some scenes where the Evas dwarf battleships and carriers.

Bryn
2008-04-29, 05:27 PM
Well, a better comparison would be capital ship to capital ship.
http://www.merzo.net/images/10mppexist.gif
http://www.merzo.net/images/10mppBattlefleetGothicCobra.gif
http://www.merzo.net/images/10mppBloodHawk.gif
Supposedly, these are to scale (http://www.merzo.net/) :smalltongue:

Apart from that, yes, huge ships are bigger than huge mechs. Huge mechs are still huge.

GoC
2008-04-29, 06:40 PM
Well, a better comparison would be capital ship to capital ship.
http://www.merzo.net/images/10mppexist.gif
http://www.merzo.net/images/10mppBattlefleetGothicCobra.gif
http://www.merzo.net/images/10mppBloodHawk.gif
Supposedly, these are to scale (http://www.merzo.net/) :smalltongue:

Apart from that, yes, huge ships are bigger than huge mechs. Huge mechs are still huge.

Sci-fi authors have no sense of scale.:smallbiggrin:

Tengu
2008-04-29, 06:54 PM
Well, a better comparison would be capital ship to capital ship.
<images>
Supposedly, these are to scale (http://www.merzo.net/) :smalltongue:

Apart from that, yes, huge ships are bigger than huge mechs. Huge mechs are still huge.

Still not as big as Tengen Toppa Gurren Laggan. In the battle it fought, galaxies were used as shuriken.

Poison_Fish
2008-04-29, 07:04 PM
I don't know about the design of the mechas, but that was some pretty awesome CGI animation - a great sense of high speed flying and some nice camerawork. Is all of Macross animated like that?

The designs are a little odd to get used to ("Half modern fighter half mecha?") but I've ended up liking them. Especially later in overall design of Macross (Not it's time line, but the two most recent Macross releases I've enjoyed a lot, that'd be Macross Zero and the previous video I linked to, Macross Frontier)

For more examples, I point to this Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNSozc4DsqA).

But Macross comes from a much earlier time and has a pretty deep history. The "universe" has been around in media and the like for about 26 years. So, the earliest Stuff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otv28eZYmb8) is on par of animation from the 80's. But, over time things get better, and then we get This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQlEiOkiLC8) and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QFcCRMBJnc).

Yes, I'm looking forward to more new episodes of Macross, <_<. Well, I at least like the mecha designs a bit more then Mecha's on roller-skates like Code Geass (Which still has somewhat decent mecha, but, meh)


Still not as big as Tengen Toppa Gurren Laggan. In the battle it fought, galaxies were used as shuriken.

When looking at that website, I thought "they'd have to go several size categories bigger if they want the Gurren Lagann"

Jorkens
2008-04-29, 07:16 PM
Slightly controversial, but how about something from a non-visual medium?

I'd like to put in a shout for the Witch, the Judge, the Investigators and the Corpsegrinder from William Gibson's Mona Lisa Overdrive. They aren't the deadliest robots around but they're damn cool. Not really made specifically for combat, but more extremely deadly kinetic sculptures made as a sort of artistic catharsis by a former car thief who's undergone a fairly harsh mental reprogramming as part of his punishment.


Slick Henry hated the Judge. That was what the art people never understood. That didn't mean it didn't give him pleasure to have built the thing, to have gotten the Judge out , out where he could see him and keep track of him and finally, sort of, be free of the idea of him, but that sure wasn't the same as liking him.

Nearly four meters tall, half as broad at the shoulders, headless, the Judge stood trembling in his patchwork carapace the color of rust gone a certain way, like the handles of an old wheelbarrow, polished by the friction of a thousand hands. He'd found a way to get that surface with chemicals and abrasives, and he'd used it on most of the Judge; the old parts anyway, the scavenged parts, not the cold teeth of the circular blades or the mirrored surfaces of the joints, but the rest of the Judge was that color, that finish, like a very old tool still in hard daily use.

He thumbed the joystick and the Judge took one step forward, then another. The gyros were working perfectly; even with an arm off, the thing moved with a terrible dignity, planting its huge feet just so.

Verruckt
2008-04-29, 11:59 PM
Whomsoever has deluded themselves into believing that a mecha is an effective platform for combat should be aware of the ruling of price in military tactics. The one place where a mech might be useful (or more likely an exosuit) is construction or mining, or dangerous work environments.

I'm to tired to go further but just agree with me for the time being

Rutee
2008-04-30, 12:28 AM
Isn't it interesting that even the biggest mecha are still dwarfed by modern capital ships?

King of Braves Gao Gai Gar is significantly larger then modern capital ships, if memory serves. And the Grungust Type O is large enough to have a sword that is accurately named "Ship Cleaving Blade"



MARS PATTERN REAVER TITAN
Uh. That's pretty much the AK /peons/ from Total Annihilation. With a missile Launcher on its back. I gotta say, I'm underwhelmed. =/


Slightly controversial, but how about something from a non-visual medium?
Never heard of it, but it sounds pretty cool.

Poison_Fish
2008-04-30, 12:55 AM
Uh. That's pretty much the AK /peons/ from Total Annihilation. With a missile Launcher on its back. I gotta say, I'm underwhelmed. =/

Gasp... Rutee remembers TA. Squee.

Now I feel the need to mention the Krogoth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krogoth) for being a walking army.

LBO
2008-04-30, 01:20 AM
Well, except for the way the Reaver completely lacks the "backwards legs", "pointy head" and "looking anything like a Core AK at all in any way", maybe. Try the Warhound.

(...still the best RTS ever, though.)

Rutee
2008-04-30, 01:22 AM
Gun Arms, head mounted lower then the highest point of the back, lending it the same hunched look. Granted, no reverse joint legs.

Storm Bringer
2008-04-30, 01:40 AM
I I pointed out the reaver design is older than TA by about 5 years, would that help?

Phantasm
2008-04-30, 01:42 AM
Coolest to me will always be the Veritechs/Valkyries of Macross, though the Destroids are always cool too. Id link but im lazy. (also, are we counting or discounting power armor? because then id go complete Robotech fanboi and go with the Cyclones)

F.H. Zebedee
2008-04-30, 01:43 AM
I'm personally a fan of the Guarlion (especially Custom paint job. Just too cool.), Wildschwein (Disk Slicer runs on win. Of all mechs, why'd THIS one have to be cut for SRT OG 2?) and Astelion (Also incredibly awesome, though the less agressive profile hurts its coolness a mite.) (Actually, pretty much anything in the Lion and Wild lines, except for Barrelions. Friggin' cannons pretending to be mechas...)

Outside of SRT? Big Duo was incredible, and so over the top I just had to love it, Type The End was stunning in the way it moved and attacked, and M.O.G.E.R.A. from Godzilla vs. Space Godzilla for pure, retro goodness (Although he sucks in the games... Sigh... Here I was, hoping for Robo-Iceclimbers.)

As you can tell, I prefer flying mechas with jet stylings. Just love the idea of an incredibly mobile craft that still has the power and armor to go into close quarters and rip the hell out of an enemy.

Rutee
2008-04-30, 01:43 AM
I I pointed out the reaver design is older than TA by about 5 years, would that help?

Not at all; It still looks far too much like a peon's mecha. You can not look bad ass in a GM.

LBO
2008-04-30, 01:46 AM
Not at all; It still looks far too much like a peon's mecha. You can not look bad ass in a GM.
So if a mech had a more human form, would you criticise it for looking too much like a Peewee? (Or love it for looking too much like a Commander?)

Rutee
2008-04-30, 01:48 AM
So if a mech had a more human form, would you criticise it for looking too much like a Peewee? (Or love it for looking too much like a Commander?)

If it is too strongly reminiscent of one, yes, I would. The issue is that the appearance was too strongly reminiscent of a peon unit. Possibly a lack of zazz?

LBO
2008-04-30, 01:52 AM
"Head above the shoulders? Guns mounted where hands would be on a human? Legs jointed in the same way as on a human? Rapid-fire weapons? SO PEEWEE." :smalltongue:

...yeah, I kind of take issue with that model for not having anything like enough GRIMDARK/gothic stuff on it. There's too much competition in the "generic flat-armoured mecha" section for it to really look unique, even with the skull face and a few eagles. Wait for the Imperator, I suppose.

Still, the Reaver in the fluff and my mind is still among the coolest mechs ever. :smallbiggrin:

Blayze
2008-04-30, 02:31 AM
Isn't it interesting that even the biggest mecha are still dwarfed by modern capital ships?

Unless you've got a capital ship bigger than existence itself, Gurren Lagann's got you beat.

Fri
2008-04-30, 07:33 AM
I don't know about the design of the mechas, but that was some pretty awesome CGI animation - a great sense of high speed flying and some nice camerawork. Is all of Macross animated like that?

Well that is the latest Macross. The original is ran in the 80s, so no, not all macross animated like that. In my opinion, macross series got the most intense battles in any mech series. Ever heard 'Macross Missile Massacre' aka the Itano Circus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichir%C3%B4_Itano) :D?'
Macross is my favourite mech series.

You might be interested in Macross Zero, a 5 episodes OVA that got the best animated CGI Fightings. Though some say the story is a bit lacking, but the action scenes pay it up.

GoC
2008-04-30, 08:57 AM
Unless you've got a capital ship bigger than existence itself, Gurren Lagann's got you beat.
Where can I found out how big Gurren Lagann is?

Cubey
2008-04-30, 08:59 AM
There were several incarnations of Gurren Lagann across the series' length. Its final form, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, can use galaxies as stepping stones or shurikens. That's how large it is.

And it would be absolutely cheesy and lame if it wasn't so awesome.

Artemician
2008-04-30, 09:06 AM
Where can I found out how big Gurren Lagann is?

There's an animated gif prepared for this exact purpose.

<Spoilered for size>
http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l271/artemician/perspectivewithGurrenLagann.gif

GoC
2008-04-30, 09:21 AM
There were several incarnations of Gurren Lagann across the series' length. Its final form, Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, can use galaxies as stepping stones or shurikens. That's how large it is.

And it would be absolutely cheesy and lame if it wasn't so awesome.

I've heard of stupid mechas but this...
They are probably the stupidest script-writers of all time.

Artemis: I found this shortly after posting.

Named after the title of the show itself, this machine is one of the largest mecha ever seen in any animated series. It is often reputed to be galaxy-sized, however given how it holds Chouginga Gurren-Lagann (The size of Earth's moon) within it's mouth and it's enemy, the Grand Zamboa, has a very visible planet on it's forehead, it is unlikely to be even one AU tall. It also possesses a number of techniques based on the combat style of some of its multiple pilots:
I don't suppose you could tell me who built this over-sized monstrosity?
And why they didn't just use a few trillion death stars instead?

Jorkens
2008-04-30, 09:27 AM
Whomsoever has deluded themselves into believing that a mecha is an effective platform for combat should be aware of the ruling of price in military tactics. The one place where a mech might be useful (or more likely an exosuit) is construction or mining, or dangerous work environments.
Or situations where looking really cool is more important than realism. Like, y'know, a lot of science fiction settings.

Blayze
2008-04-30, 09:31 AM
I don't suppose you could tell me who built this over-sized monstrosity?
And why they didn't just use a few trillion death stars instead?

Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann was not built. The original Gurren and Lagann were combined on a whim by a man named Kamina ("Let's use *that*!" "What's *that*?" "Idiot... That is... GATTAI DA!"). Lagann's ability to combine with other Ganmen and power up through said method led to Gurren Lagann combining with a series of larger mechs, getting larger and more awesome with every incarnation.

Trust me, it works.

Cubey
2008-04-30, 09:43 AM
I've heard of stupid mechas but this...
They are probably the stupidest script-writers of all time.


Trust me. It's better than it sounds. You have to see it to believe it.
Of course, I'm talking to a rabit anti-mecha fanatic so you're probably not going to see it anyway, but... whatever.


EDIT:
I wanted not to join into the mecha discussion, but... graargh! You will pay for this, everyone in this thread! But here goes:
Mecha aren't feasible in the real world, HOWEVER in media they are utilised in settings that take one of these options:
1. The rule of cool is king, so you use mecha because they're awesome. Trying to put real-life physics into such settings is like yelling: Stop Having Fun Guys (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys)! These settings may be lighter, like TTGL, or more Grimandark, like WH 40 K.
OR
2. Settings where advanced technology, be it Black Tech acquired via Whispered (Fullmetal Panic!), Minovsky particles (Gundam) or ultra-light but resilient alloys from Battletech make large humanoid robots a viable battlefield option, because they aren't weaker construction-wise than, say, tanks, and are more manuverable, just like a human being is more manuverable than a car.

Rutee
2008-04-30, 10:40 AM
I don't suppose you could tell me who built this over-sized monstrosity?
And why they didn't just use a few trillion death stars instead?

...You're complaining about mecha being stupid while celebrating Death Stars.

And then think that creating a trillion units that each have crew complements over the million mark, when the Gurren-Dan is only in the double digits, would be a smart move.

http://ui04.gamespot.com/2051/mariopwnt_2.jpg

black dragoon
2008-04-30, 10:47 AM
Oy! Please stop bashing us! We like our silliness! Speaking of which anyone here like Fantasy mechs(Escaflowne, Dunbine*)?
* This means: http://www.mahq.net/mecha/dunbine/auraphantasm/index.html
Please cut and paste. Anyways For you DND fans I'm working on Fantasy mecha setting and am currently in desperate need for help! So please if you're interested come on down to my thread. Okay a enough Shamless advertising...
I've gotta admit that Macross has some pretty mechs. Though the Gerwalk mode looks rather silly at times.:smallbiggrin:

black dragoon
2008-04-30, 10:51 AM
Oy! Please stop bashing us! We like our silliness! Speaking of which anyone here like Fantasy mechs(Escaflowne, Dunbine*)?
* This means: http://www.mahq.net/mecha/dunbine/auraphantasm/index.html
Please cut and paste. Anyways For you DND fans I'm working on Fantasy mecha setting and am currently in desperate need for help! So please if you're interested come on down to my thread. Okay a enough Shamless advertising...
I've gotta admit that Macross has some pretty mechs. Though the Gerwalk mode looks rather silly at times.:smallbiggrin:

GoC
2008-04-30, 11:11 AM
...You're complaining about mecha being stupid while celebrating Death Stars.

And then think that creating a trillion units that each have crew complements over the million mark, when the Gurren-Dan is only in the double digits, would be a smart move.

http://ui04.gamespot.com/2051/mariopwnt_2.jpg

I was using the death star to accentuate the point. The death star is very very problematic.
And if you can make a solar system sized mech have a crew of two I don't see why you can't do that with the death star.
It's irrelevant though: I was not criticizing you or saying mechas are stupid I was merely asking why the VBM (very big mecha) was built.
I've done some calculations using the gif.
Gurren Langen has about 20 times the mass of the galaxy and is a bit over a thousandth of a light-year in length.
Needless to say this jibes both with using galaxies as shurikens and the wikipedia text in my previous post.:smallbiggrin:

<-Very annoying character that somehow appeared when I was typing.

Blayze
2008-04-30, 11:33 AM
And if you can make a solar system sized mech have a crew of two I don't see why you can't do that with the death star.

It doesn't have a crew of two. It has a crew of roughly twenty to thirty, and almost twenty of those crewmembers are all it needs to be the most destructive *anything* this side of Ideon.

Jorkens
2008-04-30, 12:00 PM
I wanted not to join into the mecha discussion, but... graargh! You will pay for this, everyone in this thread! But here goes:
Sorry!

Mecha aren't feasible in the real world, HOWEVER in media they are utilised in settings that take one of these options:
1. The rule of cool is king, so you use mecha because they're awesome. Trying to put real-life physics into such settings is like yelling: Stop Having Fun Guys (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys)! These settings may be lighter, like TTGL, or more Grimandark, like WH 40 K.
I agree with and endorse this. And yeah, just because a setting isn't strictly technologically consistant doesn't mean it can't be whatever you want it to be - grim and gritty or socially realist (apart from the giant robots) or psychologically realist or whatever you want. However

2. Settings where advanced technology, be it Black Tech acquired via Whispered (Fullmetal Panic!), Minovsky particles (Gundam) or ultra-light but resilient alloys from Battletech make large humanoid robots a viable battlefield option, because they aren't weaker construction-wise than, say, tanks, and are more manuverable, just like a human being is more manuverable than a car.
I have still yet to see any good explanation of what technology would make a giant robot (or specifically, one with legs) a better allocation of resources than the combination of tank-like vehicles and air units you could produce for the same cost. People seem to be comparing 18m tall mechs with the full complement of futuristic weaponry and armour to an M1 Abrams with slightly pimped out weapons.

FWIW, humans are more manuverable than cars because they're a lot lighter and move a lot less fast, and because we've never felt the need to design cars that can actually turn on the spot. Also because our legs have been evolving over millions of years rather than cars which have been designed over the last century or so. Have you got an example of a humanoid robot that is more maneuvreable than a wheeled or tracked one of about the same size and cost?

black dragoon
2008-04-30, 12:14 PM
Sorry aboutr that double post. Frakin' Dells. Anyway thank you for clarifying that point. It just sounded very agressive was all.
BTW: Does the Betterman count as a mech or kaiju?

LurkerInPlayground
2008-04-30, 12:41 PM
A word to the wise: Arguing over the feasability of mech engineering in Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is an exercise in futility.

The show never takes itself seriously. They have giant mechs. . .and drills, that get bigger and bigger. They get pumped up to the max. Just because. It's awesomeness in the most juvenile way possible.

black dragoon
2008-04-30, 12:46 PM
But it's still amazing eye candy and that's all I want!:smallbiggrin:
I still wanna know you're guy's stance on fantasy mechs BTW:smallwink:

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-30, 12:50 PM
I don't suppose you could tell me who built this over-sized monstrosity?
And why they didn't just use a few trillion death stars instead?No one built it. It's made of Hot Blood and Courage! And pretty much every mech built by the "good guys" over the course of millenia, with a few moon-sized battleships thrown in for good measure. The ultimate combining mecha, basically.

And really, it's more of a device of plot/awesome than any attempt to be a war machine. It only fought one 15-minute battle, and that was in a place where space-time had already gone a bit wonky.

And, seriously, seriously don't try to do the math/physics on this show. That completely misses the point.

Cubey
2008-04-30, 12:52 PM
I have still yet to see any good explanation of what technology would make a giant robot (or specifically, one with legs) a better allocation of resources than the combination of tank-like vehicles and air units you could produce for the same cost. People seem to be comparing 18m tall mechs with the full complement of futuristic weaponry and armour to an M1 Abrams with slightly pimped out weapons.

FWIW, humans are more manuverable than cars because they're a lot lighter and move a lot less fast, and because we've never felt the need to design cars that can actually turn on the spot. Also because our legs have been evolving over millions of years rather than cars which have been designed over the last century or so. Have you got an example of a humanoid robot that is more maneuvreable than a wheeled or tracked one of about the same size and cost?

If we have some kind of man-machine interface (present for example in Martian Successor Nadesico), or any other very precise controls that allow you to read the pilot's movements and make the vehicle move the same way, then a humanoid robot is far more manuverable than any other machine. A jet or a wheel-based vehicle may be faster, but it won't be able to reflexively dodge or aim as fluidly as a mecha controlled in such a way. That's of course if the pilot has enough kinematic reflexes and awareness, like you'd expect a soldier to have. Not to mention movement in difficult terrain (for example climbing or acrobatics), or fighting melee - which is a feasible option if combat takes place in close quarters, or if one of the sides ambushes the other from a very close distance. This all of course assumes that we have technology to make giant robots that aren't extremely heavy, bulky and clumsy (like Metal Gear from MGS series) - and while we don't have such a technology for the time being, this doesn't have to be a case for fictional universes.

EDIT:
ON TOPIC!
Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is full of mecha, most of them cool. There are of course exceptions, like the one from the infamous 4th episode. My favourite, however, remains to be the original Gurren (http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e240/NewtypeS3/Screenshots/GurrenLagann/Gurren-1.jpg).

black dragoon
2008-04-30, 12:59 PM
In truth motion tracking tech really is'nt that far off. Or there is the other approach which seems to be closing in within a few decades which is full neural interface. We already have the ability to use a computer with just thought it's not that much of a leap to assume it could be weaponized somehow. I admit it's at a rudimentary level right now but still.... It's scary what could happen there.

Cubey
2008-04-30, 01:00 PM
Yes, I know motion tracking isn't a problem. I meant having metals that are solid AND light enough to allow a giant robot to act freeily- we don't have that yet. But if we will, then:
Light metals + motion tracking = mecha are a feasible idea

Cheers!

black dragoon
2008-04-30, 01:05 PM
*clinks stein* That is true and to this I say look up Graphene it can help in the armor department now all we need is a way for the stupid hunk of junk to move...artificial muscles anyone?

Rutee
2008-04-30, 01:45 PM
I have still yet to see any good explanation of what technology would make a giant robot (or specifically, one with legs) a better allocation of resources than the combination of tank-like vehicles and air units you could produce for the same cost. People seem to be comparing 18m tall mechs with the full complement of futuristic weaponry and armour to an M1 Abrams with slightly pimped out weapons.

Gurren Lagann and Nadesico have you covered. The former? The power of the machine comes from the will of the pilot. Full stop, Nekketsu is /the/ power source of the things. Hot Blood is easier to channel in a humanoid form because ti feels more like it's /you/ fighting.

Nadesico.. didn't even bother, with the Gekigan Types. They're intentionally made to be Super Robots, which are, again, giant metal superheroes.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-04-30, 02:07 PM
As Cubey mentioned, though, Nadesico's protagonist mecha have the Image Feedback System, an integration of nanomachines and solid electronics which allows pilots to control their (very lightweight) craft as if they were their own bodies. Their own bodies with Rocket Punches, anyway.

The most common side effects of nanomachine injection may include hotblood, hallucination, mood swings and spontaneous teleportation. Other side effects include being press-ganged by an evil corporation, an inability to recover from relatively minor injuries, and emoness.

G Gundam, despite being a Super Robot show, gives a nod to this with the Motion Trace System, which does the same basic thing, but requiring a lot more physical prowess for a pilot to use. Which makes sense, as the Motion Trace System mecha are generally used for what is effectively an enormous mixed martial arts tournament.

Rutee
2008-04-30, 02:10 PM
G Gundam, despite being a Super Robot show, gives a nod to this with the Motion Trace System, which does the same basic thing, but requiring a lot more physical prowess for a pilot to use. Which makes sense, as the Motion Trace System mecha are generally used for what is effectively an enormous mixed martial arts tournament.

They also laminate the pilots, which never ceases to look enormously painful, on a side note.

Poison_Fish
2008-04-30, 02:23 PM
Fantasy Mech's? There is always the warstriders from Exalted. But I can't seem to find a picture.

Basically just think of Escaflowne.

Lord Iames Osari
2008-04-30, 03:01 PM
Yes, I know motion tracking isn't a problem. I meant having metals that are solid AND light enough to allow a giant robot to act freeily- we don't have that yet. But if we will, then:
Light metals + motion tracking = mecha are a feasible idea
You mean like this (http://www.liquidmetal.com/news/dsp.news.04x204.asp)?

Cubey
2008-04-30, 03:05 PM
Also I feel this wouldn't be complete without mentioning Fullmetal Panic!, where characters acknowledge that mecha are impractical in theory, yet because of Black Technology they are superior to anything else available.
Hey, there is even a HUGE Arm Slave in one episode which is equipped with Lambda Driver which allows it to *literally* break laws of physics and not collapse from its colossal mass. And when the driver stops working, it DOES collapse.

Blayze
2008-04-30, 04:01 PM
Gurren Lagann and Nadesico have you covered. The former? The power of the machine comes from the will of the pilot. Full stop, Nekketsu is /the/ power source of the things. Hot Blood is easier to channel in a humanoid form because ti feels more like it's /you/ fighting.

Nadesico.. didn't even bother, with the Gekigan Types. They're intentionally made to be Super Robots, which are, again, giant metal superheroes.

Wasn't Nadesico really just Real Robots piloted by people who thought they were in a Super Robot show? :P

darkblade
2008-04-30, 04:09 PM
This is the coolest mecha ever hands down.

http://www.cartoon-secrets.com/Photos/Megas-XLR.jpg

Don't kill me. :smallamused:

GoC
2008-04-30, 04:16 PM
If we have some kind of man-machine interface (present for example in Martian Successor Nadesico), or any other very precise controls that allow you to read the pilot's movements and make the vehicle move the same way, then a humanoid robot is far more manuverable than any other machine. A jet or a wheel-based vehicle may be faster, but it won't be able to reflexively dodge or aim as fluidly as a mecha controlled in such a way.
I don't follow.
Why would it be faster with a mecha?
And why would it matter?
The better your engines become and the faster you can dodge the faster the missiles chasing you become. And the missiles will always win in the end.


Yes, I know motion tracking isn't a problem. I meant having metals that are solid AND light enough to allow a giant robot to act freeily- we don't have that yet. But if we will, then:
Light metals + motion tracking = mecha are a feasible idea

Cheers!
But still inferior to a good fighter or tank. :P


Not to mention movement in difficult terrain (for example climbing or acrobatics), or fighting melee - which is a feasible option if combat takes place in close quarters, or if one of the sides ambushes the other from a very close distance.
Melee is ridiculous. You can't exactly pull off an ambush with an 18m tall mecha.
To put it simply:
Tank/fighter>mecha
Missiles>punches

And just because I can here's the amount of energy the Gurren Lagann uses up each second of normal combat assuming all it's doing is throwing punches:
3.6*10^56 J
Gurren Lagann: Converting one billion stars into energy each second we protect you.:smallwink:

Kenori
2008-04-30, 04:16 PM
Where there is toku, there is Giant mechs!

Personal favorites.

Magiking (Mystic Something-or-other Megazord in America) From Magiranger

Dragon Mode
http://www.toyslife-jp.com/ebay/042605/010c.JPG

Mecha Mode
http://www.supersentai.com/database/2005_magiranger/images/magi-mm-magiking02.jpg

Daijuujin (Megazord in America) from Zyuranger
http://www.supersentai.com/database/1992_zyuranger/images/zyu-sz-daizyujin.jpg

And, though its technically not a giant mech, it IS a mech.

Auto-Vaijin from Kamen Rider Faiz
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y65/jiroshin/SIC.jpg

Rutee
2008-04-30, 04:24 PM
GoC, I have three words for you.

Rule of Cool.

You lose, good day.

Attilargh
2008-04-30, 04:34 PM
Hey GoC, do you snark at Looney Tunes too? :smalltongue:

Seraph
2008-04-30, 05:58 PM
And the missiles will always win in the end.

every single mecha show created after the 80's would like to have a word with you.

Jorkens
2008-04-30, 06:02 PM
GoC, I have three words for you.

Rule of Cool.

You lose, good day.
But the point here is that we're arguing about whether the rule of cool is neccessary for a setting with humanoid mechs to make sense, or whether there are circumstances under which they'd actually be any use in a boring uncool practically minded universe... noone (at least, not me) is saying that giant fighting robots aren't cool and fun and a Good Thing, just whether they can be considered realistic or whether you have to leave your expectations of technological consistancy at the door.

Yeah, it is like Looney Toons - everybody loves them, but if someone suggested that when you run off a cliff in real life you keep running on thin air until you look down and notice, people might disagree...

Seraph
2008-04-30, 06:07 PM
But the point here is that we're arguing about whether the rule of cool is neccessary for a setting with humanoid mechs to make sense, or whether there are circumstances under which they'd actually be any use in a boring uncool practically minded universe... noone (at least, not me) is saying that giant fighting robots aren't cool and fun and a Good Thing, just whether they can be considered realistic or whether you have to leave your expectations of technological consistancy at the door.

Yeah, it is like Looney Toons - everybody loves them, but noone suggests that if you run off a cliff in real life you keep running on thin air until you look down and notice...

the military spends millions of dollars a pop on tanks that can be wtfpwned by a rocket launcher that costs less than a tank of gas. if you honestly think the military gives a **** about practicality or cost-effectiveness, then you are in a dream world.

Rutee
2008-04-30, 06:30 PM
noone (at least, not me) is saying that giant fighting robots aren't cool and fun and a Good Thing
GoC is, on grounds of unrealistic-ness.

GoC
2008-04-30, 06:44 PM
GoC, I have three words for you.

Rule of Cool.

You lose, good day.
I agree completely.
Blame the people who said mecha were realistic.:smalltongue:


GoC is, on grounds of unrealistic-ness.
It's merely personal preference and cool and fun are relative.
People have different levels of tolerances towards unrealism. Mine just happens to be a bit higher than yours but why are we even talking about that? I never even said I didn't like them and was simply refuting the idea that mecha are realistic. You agreed on that back on page 3, right?

Attilargh::smallbiggrin:


the military spends millions of dollars a pop on tanks that can be wtfpwned by a rocket launcher that costs less than a tank of gas. if you honestly think the military gives a **** about practicality or cost-effectiveness, then you are in a dream world.

every single mecha show created after the 80's would like to have a word with you.
In the words of the wise Rutee: You lose.:smalltongue:

warty goblin
2008-04-30, 06:45 PM
But the point here is that we're arguing about whether the rule of cool is neccessary for a setting with humanoid mechs to make sense, or whether there are circumstances under which they'd actually be any use in a boring uncool practically minded universe... noone (at least, not me) is saying that giant fighting robots aren't cool and fun and a Good Thing, just whether they can be considered realistic or whether you have to leave your expectations of technological consistancy at the door.

Yeah, it is like Looney Toons - everybody loves them, but if someone suggested that when you run off a cliff in real life you keep running on thin air until you look down and notice, people might disagree...

Exactly, I couldn't have said it better myself, but because I hate short posts I'll try.

I have nothing against oversize mecha firing hundreds of inneffectual missiles at each other before pulling out lightsabers, and piloted by teenage angst-ridden people with hair best described as 'shrubb-like,' nor do I have anything against those who enjoy said. Rule of Cool is all fine and good and can be a lot of fun. Heaven knows my tastes are weird enough I shouldn't go around dictating them to anyone else.

What I can do however is disagree that such devices actually make sense from a strictly military perspective. War does not run on the Rule of Cool, but on a depressingly utilitarian combination of cold hearted calculation, resource management, and blood. Simply put, the goal is, particularly in the age of industrial warfare, to kill the opposition as 'efficiently' as possible, where the definition of efficient is determined by your manufacturing capability, technological advancement and your population's willingness to die and to kill. The successful commander does not do things because they look cool or dramatic, but because they further the end of killing enough of the enemy that further conflict becomes untenable. If flash and drama is involved, it is either incidental or carefully created for the purposes of intimidation and morale destruction.

Rule of Cool is, in other words, only a valid justification where it applies, that is in the original context of the story. It does not apply to military arguments. It is rather like bringing up Marxism or post-colonialism in a discussion about the set theory of multiplication. Thus when people are having a military discussion or proving multiplication to be true, we resent the use of a completely irrelevant argument within the context. We have nothing against mechs or post-colonialism, but merely view them as being at best poorly equiped and at worst useless for what is being debated. Thus when they are mentioned in the frame we are debating, we hasten to point out that they are in fact worthless within said frame, not that they are devoid of any worth universally.

BRC
2008-04-30, 06:51 PM
the military spends millions of dollars a pop on tanks that can be wtfpwned by a rocket launcher that costs less than a tank of gas. if you honestly think the military gives a **** about practicality or cost-effectiveness, then you are in a dream world.
Yes a Tank can be one-shotted with a rocket launcher, but that takes a good deal of luck and skill on behalf of the rocket-launcheteer. In the meantime, everbody that is Not facing an unarmored part of the tank with an anti-tank weapon and enough skill to hit a critical point is screwed. In short, vs infantry about 90% of the time the tank will win.

Cubey
2008-04-30, 06:52 PM
Yeah, but the problem is, it wasn't a discussion about feasibility of mecha, multiplication or Marx. It was about which mecha are cool, and the critics butted in, derailing a perfectly good thread.

So I say - butt out! Find your own anti-mecha thread. This one's for cool giant robots.

And I gave a reason on why mecha work in non-Rule of Cool powered media. At least in some of them: specific Phlebotinium that can be used to make good mecha but cannot be used to improve non-mecha vehicles. The viewers usually don't understand it, neither do creators and in some cases (example, given two times already: FMP!) the characters in the media do not as well.

BRC
2008-04-30, 06:54 PM
Oh right, Feasability of Mecha. The type that IS feasable is the more-or-less human sized power armor style mecha. The 100+ foot tall variety is, however, not.

Cubey
2008-04-30, 07:07 PM
Whatever. Back on-topic:

From the mecha that weren't mentioned in this thread yet, we cannot forget of SRW OG's Alteisen (http://www.mahq.net/Mecha/srw/og1/ptx-003c.jpg). Even its name (Old Iron in badly mangled German) emanates badass.

My google-fu revealed that there is an actual Alteisen model to assemble. Needless to say, that's fanboy-gasmic.

Rutee
2008-04-30, 07:08 PM
I agree completely.
Blame the people who said mecha were realistic.:smalltongue:
No, that's quite alright; You're the one who entered the thread and stirred them up by bitching about unrealism.

Cubey
2008-04-30, 07:13 PM
Rutee, you're such a loveable troll. Not that you're wrong in that point, mind you.

More on Alteisen and why it's badass - this mecha doesn't have sophisticated weapon systems or anything like that. It's bulky (but still a Real, not Super), clumsy and hard to pilot. But, to quote Kyosuke: It's got power! It makes up for its shortcomings by sheer thickness of armor and number of equipped weapons.

And then comes Alteisen Riese (http://www.mahq.net/Mecha/srw/og2/ptx-003c-sp1.jpg), an upgraded version which requires Tesla Drive (extraterrestrial technology that normally allows the mecha to fly with great maneuverability) just not to fall over due to sheer mass of stuff it carries.

GoC
2008-04-30, 07:18 PM
No, that's quite alright; You're the one who entered the thread and stirred them up by bitching about unrealism.
Perhaps you misinterpreted my first post?
Here it is again:

I've always wondered: why do people like mecha?
They seem... childish.
Essentially superheroes (with even less realism and common sense) but bigger.
Everyone responded in a light-hearted fashion until ZeroNumerous made the statement that mecha could be realistic (responding to a statement you made regarding realism). Someone else (not me!) responded and here we are.

EDIT: Anyway unless a mecha fan gives some argument that mecha are realistic I will not be commenting on realism any more.

Poison_Fish
2008-04-30, 07:30 PM
EDIT: Anyway unless a mecha fan gives some argument that mecha are realistic I will not be commenting on realism any more.


Done (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-52_Enryu).

Oh, you meant for direct military use, didn't you?

But that being said, small scale land mine clearing there are a few theories out there for mecha. Industrial work of course. Rescue. Etc. This has all been said already.

But yes, there is your evidence for realistic mecha. Note you never specified it's use.

warty goblin
2008-04-30, 07:39 PM
Yeah, but the problem is, it wasn't a discussion about feasibility of mecha, multiplication or Marx. It was about which mecha are cool, and the critics butted in, derailing a perfectly good thread.

So I say - butt out! Find your own anti-mecha thread. This one's for cool giant robots.

And I gave a reason on why mecha work in non-Rule of Cool powered media. At least in some of them: specific Phlebotinium that can be used to make good mecha but cannot be used to improve non-mecha vehicles. The viewers usually don't understand it, neither do creators and in some cases (example, given two times already: FMP!) the characters in the media do not as well.

To address your last point first, doesn't it strike you that if you have a form of Phlebotimium that nobody, fictional or real understands, you are basically just hand-waving in the Rule of Cool anyways? I mean, I'm all for Phlebotimium, and most of my settings use it by the truckload, often imported directly from the purple-red mining stations in the galactic core and delivered via FTL drives that violate relativity in new and fiendishly creative ways, but at least I try to understand it enough to be consistant and logical in it's application.

First point second, I realize that, and apoligize for said hijacking, although I think I did not commit it, or at least was not the first to do so. I merely wished to make my views on the matter clear. I have done so and now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. For one thing Z#A'quk'gruK needs my help unpacking the latest Phlebotimium shipment. It goes bad quickly if not properly stored you know, and bad Phlebotinium is a leading cause of Fan Rage.

Jorkens
2008-04-30, 07:40 PM
Done (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-52_Enryu).
Although it seems to move on tracks, which kind of undermines the point...

It is a cool giant robot though.

AslanCross
2008-04-30, 09:10 PM
Hah! Your huge hammer is no match for our Banhammer! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ex29l7Sj62Y)


That is just so incredibly ridiculous it's a wonder people put that much effort into something so utterly pointless.

Which of course, makes it totally awesome.

Anyway. Here are my favorites:

Genesic GaoGaiGar from GaoGaiGar FINAL.
http://www.irongiants.net/IMG/gaogaigar/final/genesic.gif

The Bang Doll from Five Star Stories (...I'm not kidding about the name.)
http://gearsonline.net/fss/mh/bangdoll/bangdoll.jpg
http://gearsonline.net/fss/mh/bangdoll/bangdoll5.jpg

The LED Mirage, also from FSS:
http://gearsonline.net/fss/mh/led/led8.jpg

And the poster child of the Mecha is Meant to Be Unrealistic Movement, the Jagd Mirage, also from FSS.
http://gearsonline.net/fss/mh/jagd/jagd7.jpg
http://gearsonline.net/fss/mh/jagd/jagd6.jpg

The SRX series from Super Robot Wars:
http://gearsonline.net/download/wallpapers/robot-wars1.jpg
Foreground, Left to right: R-3 Powered, R-1, R-2 Powered.
Background: Their combined form, SRX. It's actually one of the better-thought out combiner robots.

One of the mechs that I first thought was ugly but eventually grew on me: Dis Astranagant from Super Robot Wars Alpha 3.
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/1008/srwhotnewsd2qj6.jpg
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7624/srwhotnewsd3md8.jpg

And an action shot of Dis owning one of the game's bosses:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WiH-Q0Pd2tU

I also really love the AltEisen and AltEisen Riese.
Personlichkeit gets points for creepiness:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=uCfhLKlI1Z8&feature=related

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-01, 12:51 AM
And then comes Alteisen Riese (http://www.mahq.net/Mecha/srw/og2/ptx-003c-sp1.jpg), an upgraded version which requires Tesla Drive (extraterrestrial technology that normally allows the mecha to fly with great maneuverability) just not to fall over due to sheer mass of stuff it carries.Reason #87 why Kyosuke Nanbu is awesome: he sticks more ammo on his mech and calls it an upgrade. Look at the thing. Are you going to argue with him?

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-05-01, 01:05 AM
What comes to mind for me at the moment as a favourite are the Gurren and the Lagann. They're squat, compact, and awesome. Really, I like most of the low-level ganmen designs, and was disappointed by the change in form into the Gurren-Lagann.

The skinnier, ganglier designs, which are sadly becoming more common from what I'm seeing, really do not interest me. I prefer my mecha to be dwarves, not elves, thank you.

Fri
2008-05-01, 02:02 AM
Done (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-52_Enryu).

Oh, you meant for direct military use, didn't you?

But that being said, small scale land mine clearing there are a few theories out there for mecha. Industrial work of course. Rescue. Etc. This has all been said already.

But yes, there is your evidence for realistic mecha. Note you never specified it's use.

And the Timberjack (http://youtube.com/watch?v=CD2V8GFqk_Y&feature=related).Sure it's an advertisement, but they explained some reason why they use legs and not caterpillar.

thubby
2008-05-01, 02:13 AM
i think from a military perspective mecha legs may be put on things like tanks as a secondary mode of movement.

AslanCross
2008-05-01, 06:58 AM
i think from a military perspective mecha legs may be put on things like tanks as a secondary mode of movement.

The thing is, two-legged mecha are not feasible. Anything that large (if it indeed is humanoid-shaped) will sink into the Earth due to the way its weight is distributed. The most feasible design for legged mechanized units is spider-legs, or at least a quadruped design.

Also:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2008-01-11/science-website-calculates-price-of-building-gundam

This is the price of building a Gundam, without the Phlebotinum armor or the miracle reactor. Without weapons.

It's really not cost-effective. Thus, I firmly believe that mecha are completely not feasible. They exist only to be cool, which is why I enjoy them.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 07:03 AM
As I pointed out earlier, however, while the mecha isn't feasible, weapon systems are sometimes.

The Japanese and US militaries are working on what amounts to Funnels, f'rex.

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-05-01, 07:19 AM
i think from a military perspective mecha legs may be put on things like tanks as a secondary mode of movement.
What benefit would this possibly bring? Treads are more stable and much more efficient than legs of similar span over most possible terrain, and the added mass, weak points, and mechanical complexity of including an entirely separate drive system would have to be outweighed by the benefit. I don't see this happening unless you want your tanks to walk up stairs or climb ladders for some reason.


The Japanese and US militaries are working on what amounts to Funnels, f'rex.
Funnels?

Kato
2008-05-01, 07:25 AM
Woohoo! Mechas rule! I love the Gundam series, so what? *g*
Okay, first on topic: I think the best Mecha's is up to anyones opinion. e.g. Sousei no Aquarion (or so) has a great animation staff and I think the computer animated mechas look... wow. At least from the point of technique. (on the other hand, the anime's cruel, I didn't get beyond ep 1, but most people told me)
Me being a Gundam-maniac I greatly like designs such as Dynames or Death Scythe, though the best controlling system is G Gundams motion capturing... pulling levers is so last year...
So, Gundam's best for me, but there are a lot of others out there.

On the realism... I don't think humanoid mechas would work in real life combat... the technology used in tanks or jets would be way more effective... I mean... they LOOK cool and might be impressive, but you can not really use the specialization which is part of modern war fare.
On the other hand I do think we could be able to build them, maybe soon, maybe even now. But as said already, there's not much sense in it, except for showing off.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 07:30 AM
Funnels?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minovsky_Physics#Funnels_and_Bits
Effectively, drones that in the original, a Newtype controls.

I have a link earlier in the thread to the test of them.

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-05-01, 07:37 AM
The new DACS(Divert & Attitude Control System) created by the Japan Self Defense Forces in December, 2006 was quoted as an attempt to create Funnel system in real life by Gizmodo Japan.
Japan is crazy.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 07:38 AM
Japan is crazy.

It's a joint US and JP project.

Tengu
2008-05-01, 09:05 AM
US people call hamburgers food! Now that's crazy.

And they drink coffee, too. Okay, people everywhere in the world drink coffee, but still. If it's true that you become an adult when you start to drink coffee, than I'm going to live forever because to die from old age, you first need to become an adult.

Fri
2008-05-01, 09:21 AM
After seing Ironman a few hour ago.... IRON MAN MARK I! (or whatever the name of the suit that the bad guy used)

It's more mecha than an armored suit....

Is it wrong that now, I'm expecting US Military developing an Armored Suit not unlike Ironman/green goblin(plus their super soldier serum), and Japanese military developing a Mech like gundam or labor or wanzers?

And there will be a joint military excersise that will make all otakus in the world goes gaga.

black dragoon
2008-05-01, 10:18 AM
Truth told As I've stated in earlier post We(US) have been working at powered armors(Pop. Sci. had it as their article of the month) And yeah I can see Japan moving twoards mech infantry more quickly they've stayed ahead on the tech curve so far. I mean heck we're borrowing off of their designs for civilian use to design our new 'Iron man' suits.
Anyone here heard of Aura Phantasm?

GoC
2008-05-01, 11:30 AM
After seing Ironman a few hour ago.... IRON MAN MARK I! (or whatever the name of the suit that the bad guy used)

It's more mecha than an armored suit....

Is it wrong that now, I'm expecting US Military developing an Armored Suit not unlike Ironman/green goblin(plus their super soldier serum), and Japanese military developing a Mech like gundam or labor or wanzers?

And there will be a joint military excersise that will make all otakus in the world goes gaga.

An Ironman powersuit would be awesome.:smallcool:

Blayze
2008-05-01, 11:32 AM
Damn this topic. It made me think this thought:

"What would happen if Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and Ideon fought?"

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-01, 12:38 PM
I think that's a question of Unstoppable Force vs. Immovable Object. I'll leave it to you to decide which is which.

Really, though, my money's on TTGL, as that show's entire point is in averting the depressing Kill Em All that Ideon represents. Not that a ****load of people don't die, mind you. It's still Studio Gainax. It's just much less depressing.

black dragoon
2008-05-01, 12:55 PM
Wow, that is a dpressing way to end things... God robot Vs. Galaxy sized mech? I'm surprised this has'nt come up before.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 03:08 PM
That kind of matchup can only happen in Super Robot Wars.

The Ideon pilots learn about HOT BLOOD from the Gurren-Dan, becoming more self reliant,a nd believing further in their own power. The two first take down the STMC and the Anti-Spirals in a grand contest. And the best part is that nobody dies.

:smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon
2008-05-01, 03:16 PM
Damn this topic. It made me think this thought:

"What would happen if Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann and Ideon fought?"

Ideon version: Universal annihilation as a side effect of the battle. Alternately, the Ideon crew learns Hotblood from the Gurren-dan.. and then trigger Spiral Nemesis when they begin channeling Spiral energy. Cosmic rocks fall, everybody dies.

Blayze
2008-05-01, 03:29 PM
I think that's a question of Unstoppable Force vs. Immovable Object. I'll leave it to you to decide which is which.

Really, though, my money's on TTGL, as that show's entire point is in averting the depressing Kill Em All that Ideon represents. Not that a ****load of people don't die, mind you. It's still Studio Gainax. It's just much less depressing.

I think it's really a case of Unstoppable Force vs Unstoppable Force. It'll be interesting to see how the SRW games handle TTGL, if they include its ultimate form.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 03:41 PM
I included a list of reasons why TTGL wouldn't actually be in an SRW series, including but not exclusive to huge cast, no significant drawback (Ideon's power comes with costs, among them being that if the Ideon is Destroyed you lose, period), TTGL being /too/ Super (As in, it's thousands of times larger then maps) .

But if it ever were...

Kamina would never bite it!

Thiel
2008-05-01, 06:33 PM
I don't know it's name, but this (http://www.page.sannet.ne.jp/sae9/bl3/14votoms01.jpg) one from Armoured Trooper VOTOMS, unlike most other mechas, manages to look like it belongs on the battlefield

black dragoon
2008-05-02, 12:25 PM
Votmos aimed for that very battlefieldish look to their mechs. check out dream pod 9's Heavy Gear some time They borrowed heavily off of Votmos.

Matar
2008-05-02, 03:11 PM
Am I the only one who read the topics title and thought about Big-O?

'Cause yeah, I read the topics title and thought about Big-O.

This. Is. THE CITY OF AMNESIA!!!

Poison_Fish
2008-05-02, 03:40 PM
When I think of Big O, all I can think of is the Catchy theme song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdA6iRk94Hc).

That and retro powered mechs of awesome.

black dragoon
2008-05-02, 08:41 PM
Wahooo! Megadues! IT'S SHOWTIME BIG O!!!!
sorry....had to do it....

((girlsfriend- "....wow....." *palm/face*))

Fri
2008-05-03, 09:46 AM
Ah yes.
Cast in the name of God, ye not guilty!

Too bad I didn't have the anime. I only had the manga. Batman+Giant Robot=Big O.

By the way, other than powered suits, why batman never built any giant robot? Surely as the world's greatest detective he'll need a giant robot now and then?

Poison_Fish
2008-05-03, 02:49 PM
Spider Man had one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGxde2a2_iQ)

Thiel
2008-05-03, 04:38 PM
That was disturbing. Thankfully we only had very few live-action adaptations here in Denmark. (The only one I can remember is Power Rangers) I'm not sure why, but it may have to do with the fact that we start learning English from third grade and because we rarely dub anything.


By the way, other than powered suits, why batman never built any giant robot? Surely as the world's greatest detective he'll need a giant robot now and then?
Well, it is awfully hard to sneak around in a super-sized robot. Besides, Batty would have to worry about stepping on innocent bystanders. Killing old granny would really throw a wrench in his PR machine.

GoC
2008-05-03, 06:12 PM
Well, it is awfully hard to sneak around in a super-sized robot. Besides, Batty would have to worry about stepping on innocent bystanders. Killing old granny would really throw a wrench in his PR machine.

Since when does Batman care about PR?

Foeofthelance
2008-05-03, 11:07 PM
Since when does Batman care about PR?

Are you kidding? Half of Batman's gig is A) staying just good enough no one wants to go after him as a vigilante and B) being known well enough that the mere mention of his name is enough to sway lesser criminals to staying home.

On the other topic, what if the mecha were transformable? Admittedly, one of the problems with the Air Force is that it only has two options: shoot or go home. It can't hold a target, and it can't stick around indefinitely. If, however, there was a mecha capable of transform (and it wouldn't necessarily need to be bipedal with feet; it could be bipedal with tracks, ala the Guntank [at least I think it was the Guntank]) then it could establish air superiority, and hold the ground once taken.*

*If we can build transforming craft, then I'm sure we can develop the means to properly arm and armor them. Its just a matter of cost and engineering.

Fri
2008-05-04, 04:13 AM
Are you kidding? Half of Batman's gig is A) staying just good enough no one wants to go after him as a vigilante and B) being known well enough that the mere mention of his name is enough to sway lesser criminals to staying home.

He's the goddamn batman. He don't need any stinkin PR.

black dragoon
2008-05-04, 08:05 AM
The whole killing peopele thing does factor though. HE's BIG on not killing people. NOt even his own worst enemies. oh yeah o.O why does the spider man need a mech. BIg O mech are at least at stylisiticly very impressive. I mean c'mon look at Big Fau.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Bigfau.JPG

warty goblin
2008-05-04, 02:46 PM
The whole killing peopele thing does factor though. HE's BIG on not killing people. NOt even his own worst enemies. oh yeah o.O why does the spider man need a mech. BIg O mech are at least at stylisiticly very impressive. I mean c'mon look at Big Fau.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c3/Bigfau.JPG

It's wearing a skirt...A pink skirt no less. Maybe I'm sexually insecure or something, but if asked to go into battle piloting a giant anthropomorphic robot, I'd prefer it not to look like it was dressed up by 4 year old Cindy who's going through a Disney Princess phase.

In fact allow me to say I really would rather go into battle in something looking more like this: Strogg Cyclops (http://www.crispygamer.com/_GeneratedPages/screenshots/screenshot89.aspx?GamePageID=89&ScreenShotID=1834)

For those unenlightened who fail to play the raw awesome that is Enemy Territory: Quake Wars, that's the Strogg Cyclops, a really reasonably large siege walker. Refreshingly it has all the weaknesses it should, namely its easy to hit with just about anything because its as tall as a streetlight and rather hard to miss. It also has trouble with infantry getting up close and strafing around it faster than the turreted head can rotate, and it moves seriously slowly. Due to this slow rate of movement it is particularly vulnerable to getting bombed, howitzered or missiled to death from somebody on the other team. On the upside it packs twin plasma cannons, which make mincemeat of enemy armor, particularly when it shuts down the propulsion systems for a faster weapon recharge speed. This also lowers the Cyclops' profile substantially, which helpfully makes it somewhat harder to hit, albeit also rendering it immobile, but really, it's so big and slow that only complete n00bs would miss it even if it was moving. It's real strength however lies on the defensive, where you can find a nice protected chokepoint to shelter it behind, then spam the semi-auto plasma cannons at everything that approaches, and hope nobody's got good helicopter skillz, because a good helicopter pilot owns the Cyclops hard.

black dragoon
2008-05-04, 07:27 PM
Yeah tru the Pink skirt thing does throw it off. But I do love the lumbering behemoth style mechs. Pink skirt or no.:smallbiggrin:

warty goblin
2008-05-04, 09:00 PM
Yeah tru the Pink skirt thing does throw it off. But I do love the lumbering behemoth style mechs. Pink skirt or no.:smallbiggrin:

Which is exactly why I like the Cyclops, it's big, hulking and screams "I'm built to kill." Also you can stomp guys to death in it, which never fails to be awesome.

LBO
2008-05-05, 04:19 AM
I was reading Bloodquest yesterday, and Colin Macneil makes Chaos Titans look ludicrously cool. Thoughts? (http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/9426/warhammermonthly5601001wp9.jpg)

Blayze
2008-05-05, 09:32 AM
I prefer Deff Skwadron.

LBO
2008-05-05, 02:18 PM
Post us some Big Scrap Alley then.

black dragoon
2008-05-05, 03:36 PM
???Warhammer 40K??? How about Eureka Seven's LFO's? really a nifty concept the whole air surfing mechs idea.

F.H. Zebedee
2008-05-05, 06:05 PM
Wow, I typically can't stand 40k designs, but that one (Chaos Titan is it?) is VERY nice. Kinda gives a Big O vibe, with a big more venom and murder to it.

LBO
2008-05-05, 06:29 PM
Wow, I typically can't stand 40k designs, but that one (Chaos Titan is it?) is VERY nice. Kinda gives a Big O vibe, with a big more venom and murder to it.
Yeah, Chaos Titan. Ostensibly a Banelord (hardpoints are all wrong, but what the hell) Colin Macneil has a very distinct, very chunky way of drawing everything (you may have noticed his Marines look a lot like the Titans) which I think is particularly suited to the Bloodquest storyline, where the most subtle thing you're going to see is a sword that's basically a dinner table with sharpened edges.

Also, his pics of spaceships look unimaginably awesome. (warning: this pic is SERIOUSLY GrimDark (http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/8899/warhammermonthly58016lh6.jpg) .)

black dragoon
2008-05-06, 12:14 PM
Very pointy. The artwork works well with what I know of 40K and gives it a very gothic feel.

Kenori
2008-05-06, 03:24 PM
Would the new Iron Monger Suit be considered as mech? It is big. And it does work more like a mech than the Mark II

Seraph
2008-05-06, 04:52 PM
Would the new Iron Monger Suit be considered as mech? It is big. And it does work more like a mech than the Mark II

seeing as it has a cockpit instead of being worn, I'd say it qualifies as a mech more than a power armor.

Jorkens
2008-05-06, 08:13 PM
Sorry to be that guy again...

On the other topic, what if the mecha were transformable? Admittedly, one of the problems with the Air Force is that it only has two options: shoot or go home. It can't hold a target, and it can't stick around indefinitely. If, however, there was a mecha capable of transform (and it wouldn't necessarily need to be bipedal with feet; it could be bipedal with tracks, ala the Guntank [at least I think it was the Guntank]) then it could establish air superiority, and hold the ground once taken.*
Erm, I'm not sure what your point is here. Two obvious objections spring to mind:
1) a combined air assault / land defence vehicle isn't going to be particularly good at either role compared to a dedicated single purpose thing since at any given time it'll be not using about half of it's resources. I'm not sure why tranforming units would be particularly better than using dedicated air cover and light units to establish an airhead before flying in tanks (or whatever) via transport helicopters, assuming you throw similarly scaled up tech and resources at the latter approach as you'd have to with transforming mechs and
2) if you do want to make a transforming vehicle, why would it be particularly advantageous to make it a humanoid mech? What advantage does that have over a helicopter-with-tracks type unit?

Tengu
2008-05-06, 08:14 PM
a helicopter-with-tracks type unit

Sounds like something from Command and Conquer: Red Alert.

Haruspex
2008-05-06, 09:44 PM
Or better yet, a hovercraft with helicopter blades. Land, sea, and air vehicle.

Ganurath
2008-05-06, 10:14 PM
I would consider the Iron Monger a mech. However, It is nothing in the face of the Olympian from Starsiege. Plowshares to swords makes some crazy violence.

Blayze
2008-05-07, 02:31 AM
I would consider the Iron Monger a mech. However, It is nothing in the face of the Olympian from Starsiege. Plowshares to swords makes some crazy violence.

Ah, the Starsiege/Tribes/Earthsiege/Cyberstorm/Whatever series. Was the Olympian that one super-heavy Human HERC that looked more like a Space Marine Dreadnought and could mount about ten guns?

Foeofthelance
2008-05-07, 12:48 PM
Erm, I'm not sure what your point is here. Two obvious objections spring to mind:

1) a combined air assault / land defence vehicle isn't going to be particularly good at either role compared to a dedicated single purpose thing since at any given time it'll be not using about half of it's resources. I'm not sure why tranforming units would be particularly better than using dedicated air cover and light units to establish an airhead before flying in tanks (or whatever) via transport helicopters, assuming you throw similarly scaled up tech and resources at the latter approach as you'd have to with transforming mechs and

2) if you do want to make a transforming vehicle, why would it be particularly advantageous to make it a humanoid mech? What advantage does that have over a helicopter-with-tracks type unit?

Well, to be honest I'm considering them in the way they were used in Robotech/Macross, and some of the Travis Taylor books. The mecha weren't really humanoid, save for being bipedal, and if I recall correctly they were reverse jointed legs, not forward jointed the way humans are. (Admittedly, not entirely sure if that helps much on the weight issues, but it does provide them slightly more 'bounce', allowing for jumps and quick take offs). Some VTOL capability for manouverability, but mostly rear-thrust powered. It doesn't need to go from F-22 to Starscream, it just needs to be able to land and hold a fighting position on its own. You probably could do a 'helicopter with treads', except that the rotors would a very vulnerable point. Giving it legs would be enough to get the body high enough off the ground.

Well, I dunno. I admit it, I'm mostly thinking out loud with these posts. But what would we need to make a proper mech? The only two rules we need to follow are:

1) It doesn't need to be humanoid. Not all mecha are Gundams after all. It does need arms, minimum two, no maximum. Legs for mobility, any configuration and number, again, minimum two.

2) Armor is not an issue. I understand the "Too much surface area" argument, but I think it is also somewhat of a null one. There are two ways of armoring, as far as I can tell. "Dense" armoring, which is when you make the armor too thick to punch through, and "Hard" armoring, where the material the armor is made from absorbs/deflects enough of the energy from the attack to doing any damage. We'll assume we're working with hard armor.

Thiel
2008-05-07, 03:40 PM
2) Armor is not an issue. I understand the "Too much surface area" argument, but I think it is also somewhat of a null one. There are two ways of armoring, as far as I can tell. "Dense" armoring, which is when you make the armor too thick to punch through, and "Hard" armoring, where the material the armor is made from absorbs/deflects enough of the energy from the attack to doing any damage. We'll assume we're working with hard armor.

I don't think that's quite right. To the best of my knowledge no armour exists that can deflect/absorb energy without taking damage. Indeed that is how "dense" armour works. You can reduce the weight by using fancy ceramics instead of steel and there's also a whole range of systems to make it more efficient. These systems, however, doesn't work equally well against the two main types of armour-piercing systems (HEAT and solid penetrators) and they would be next to impossible, not to say dangerous to install on something as complex as a mecha.
Reactive armour wont work on relatively fragile areas such as joints and flaps because it works by exploding and relies on standard armour underneath it to absorb the shock.
Spaced armour wont work because it would take up too much volume for the mecha to fly.
Electrically charged armour needs to be properly insulated from the ground in order to work which would be very hard to do on something as complex as a mecha.

Foeofthelance
2008-05-07, 05:15 PM
Yeah, but that's a problem with any armored system, including tanks and jet fighters. Tanks have to carry a ton, which limits their range when it comes to refueling and other supplies. Planes, on the other hand, need to be able to fly quickly and ably, and armor becomes a secondary concern for them.

Honestly, armor itself may become a null value soon, as weapon systems seem to becoming more powerful much more quickly than affordable armor alloys. The main way to survive will probably become stealth, speed, and the ability to manouver. That's why I don't think of the armor as an issue. All it needs to be able to do is ensure the unit survives long enough to kill the opponent.

warty goblin
2008-05-07, 05:49 PM
Yeah, but that's a problem with any armored system, including tanks and jet fighters. Tanks have to carry a ton, which limits their range when it comes to refueling and other supplies. Planes, on the other hand, need to be able to fly quickly and ably, and armor becomes a secondary concern for them.

Honestly, armor itself may become a null value soon, as weapon systems seem to becoming more powerful much more quickly than affordable armor alloys. The main way to survive will probably become stealth, speed, and the ability to manouver. That's why I don't think of the armor as an issue. All it needs to be able to do is ensure the unit survives long enough to kill the opponent.
Although given recent advances in things like active defenses, I could see a major resurgance in armor in the near future. See this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TROPHY_Active_Protection_System)article for example, I find it quite intriguing to say the least...

And once again we have a system that is far easier to mount on a tank than a giant walking mech, which will have a greater number of sides and angle to cover, and hence require more installations of said technology to be covered on all sides.

Also, if armor actually does become obscelete, that really leaves the mech out in the cold, since the we are basically left with aircraft and infantry. Assuming armor is no longer able to provide significant protection from infantry weapons, the mech is just one honking big target that's incrediably difficult to stealth, given it's pretty radical profile.

LBO
2008-05-07, 06:10 PM
I dunno, if we assume the uselessness of armour, mecha (or at least powered suits with heavy weapons) actually become a much more attractive option than before, as their biggest disadvantage isn't any more. Still fairly useless, just a bit less so.

Foeofthelance
2008-05-07, 06:15 PM
I'm enjoying quibbling, so...

Why does the mecha have to be giant? Again, it doesn't need to be a gundam, or even gundam shaped, to be a mecha. I'm thinking something more along the lines of the Robotech fighters: planes that can deploy legs to fight on the ground, and hold a position if need be.

On the point about armor vs. weapon quality: that assumes the weapon is infantry portable. Mobile suits in the gundam universe seem very fragile, often dying at a single rifle shot... But those rifles are scaled to their size. The power unit alone would probably require a dedicated vehicle. That still leaves you with vehicle vs. vehichle combat, and there's no reason not to develop a multi-environment platform to carry it.

Thiel
2008-05-07, 06:18 PM
Thing is, you'd have to optimize for too many things, some of them mutually exclusive.
In order to be an effective aeroplane it needs to be fast, manoeuvrable and stealthy. To do this you need a powerful jet-engine, control surfaces, some way to reduce its heat signature and a hull capable of reflecting/absorbing radar waves in the way.

In order to be stealthy, a ground vehicle needs to have a low profile, optical camouflage some way to reduce its heat signature and be comparatively silent. A radar absorbing hull is a nice bonus but it isn't really necessary since radar is rarely deployed at ground level.

Now, because of the weight issue it can't carry two engines so it has to utilize its jet-engine when in "ground-mode." A jet-engine is one of the noisiest engines we have build yet, so already here we have a problem. Assuming we can get radar-absorbing paint in the right colours, optical camouflage shouldn't be a problem. Manoeuvrability is going to be a problem since, in order to retain enough hardpoints to make it effective in the air, the wings has to remain intact, which means that it's going to be very large ground vehicle. Lastly, all heat signature reducing systems that works on jet-engines rely on the engine moving at high speeds, which it wont be able to do.
So what we've ended up with is a very large and noisy vehicle that'll have trouble manoeuvring in any sort of closed terrain (forests and cities etc.) since it has to avoid everything because it doesn't have enough armour to smash though it.
Imagine taxiing a F22 through San Francisco:smallwink:.



Why does the mecha have to be giant? Again, it doesn't need to be a gundam, or even gundam shaped, to be a mecha. I'm thinking something more along the lines of the Robotech fighters: planes that can deploy legs to fight on the ground, and hold a position if need be
It doesn't have to be gigantic, but it does have to be at least the size of a modern jet fighter in order to accommodate the engine and quite possibly a little larger to fit in the limbs as well. (An F 22 is 18m long)

AslanCross
2008-05-07, 07:54 PM
I'm enjoying quibbling, so...

Why does the mecha have to be giant? Again, it doesn't need to be a gundam, or even gundam shaped, to be a mecha. I'm thinking something more along the lines of the Robotech fighters: planes that can deploy legs to fight on the ground, and hold a position if need be.

The Variable Fighters (aka Veritechs) from Macross (which was incorporated into Robotech) are actually smaller than real life fighter planes. The VF-1 is about 14 meters long, significantly shorter than the 18.9 meter F-22. The F-15 was even longer at 19.43 m.

The deal with Macross is that they were fighting giant-sized aliens, so they needed weapons that were capable of standing up to them without just being crushed underfoot. The GERWALK (Guardian) mode of the VFs was actually made for high-mobility hovering close to the surface, while the Battroid (Soldier) mode was more ideal for holding positions. Even then, VFs are much shorter than Gundam's mobile suits, which average at 18 meters. There are some that are a lot smaller (F91 and the mobile suits further down the timeline), while some are much larger (the Psyco Gundam series being 40 meters+).



On the point about armor vs. weapon quality: that assumes the weapon is infantry portable. Mobile suits in the gundam universe seem very fragile, often dying at a single rifle shot... But those rifles are scaled to their size. The power unit alone would probably require a dedicated vehicle. That still leaves you with vehicle vs. vehichle combat, and there's no reason not to develop a multi-environment platform to carry it.

Mobile suits die from single rifle shots provided the weapon was a beam weapon, essentially a miniaturized version of a battleship particle beam. They could still take multiple shots from standard MS assault rifles (105-120mm caliber), though would end up baldy damaged. The beam rifle needed a powerplant that could supply at least 1000 kilowatts, and the RX-series (Guncannon and Gundam) were the first MSes that could do that. The reactors were then mass-produced in the Federation's GMs. The Principality of Zeon wasn't able to produce MS-scale particle weapons (for the Gelgoog) until the end of the war, which was too late.

I'm not exactly sure why Zeon introduced mobile suits. They had tanks and fighters, and the Feds had tanks and fighters. For the most part it seems that the use of Minovsky reactors rendered guided missiles and radar useless, so a lot of combat had to rely on optics. Tanks have limited optical capabilities, which may have been why they needed units with a better line of sight. Of course, we know that in real life a humanoid walker of that size would sink into the ground, but suspending our disbelief, the mobile suit would be able to carry more ammunition and see more than a tank, as well as have better range--Minovsky Reactors didn't really need a lot of fuel as far as I can tell.

If combat relies only on optical input, it's likely that an MS will be able to see (and shoot) a tank first.
Then again, the development of other sensory systems (ground vibrations, for example) might be able to allow tanks to evade, surround, and kill a mobile suit first from cover.

I don't think the tanks in the UC universe would hold up to strict realistic scrutiny either. (http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/msgundam/ht-01b.htm) (It's a tank with a turret that detaches into a fighter. With the cannon still on.)

From a realistic point of view, mobile suits would probably work best in space, where there's no drag to slow you down and mass isn't as much of a problem. They would be excellent in raiding colonies, since it's easier to go from zero-G access tunnels to low-gravity cities without needing ramps.

They'd still be pretty unnecessary on Earth, though.

As for super robots, they don't need to explain themselves to anyone.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/AslanCross/Misc%20Pics/Gun_Die_Gurren.jpg

Left:
Gunbuster
Height: 250 meters.
Weight: 9800 tons.
Powered by two Entropy reactors.
Capable of faster-than-light travel, can produce a beam capable of annihilating millions of kilometer-long aliens in a single blast. Signature move is a faster-than-light flying kick.

Center:
Diebuster
Designation: Solar System Final Defense Weapon
Height: The moon's diameter
Weight: She keeps it a secret.
Powered by billions of miniature entropy reactors.
Capable of a faster-than-light flying kick, as well as giant laser beams.

Right:
Hyper-Galactic Gurren-Lagann
Designation: Transcendental Super Spiral Dreadnought
Height: for a while, it WAS the moon.
Mass: Same as the moon. When the real moon was tucked away in an alternate dimension, they had to pull it back since sending the ship into space would lead to a gravity imbalance in the earth's orbit.
Powered by sheer awesomeness.
Capable of destroying battleships larger than the earth, as well as firing weapons into the past and the future.

Tengu
2008-05-07, 08:08 PM
What are the guys from Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan doing there?

AslanCross
2008-05-07, 08:20 PM
What are the guys from Osu! Tatakae! Ouendan doing there?

That's Lord Genome and Coach in Ouendan costumes.

Tengu
2008-05-07, 08:22 PM
Hmm, yup, after a closer inspection one of them looks like Lord Genome indeed. No idea about the other guy though, I can only assume he's from the same anime as Lune Zoldark With Red Hair.

Ganurath
2008-05-07, 08:23 PM
Ah, the Starsiege/Tribes/Earthsiege/Cyberstorm/Whatever series. Was the Olympian that one super-heavy Human HERC that looked more like a Space Marine Dreadnought and could mount about ten guns?Only six, but that is the one.

AslanCross
2008-05-07, 08:31 PM
Hmm, yup, after a closer inspection one of them looks like Lord Genome indeed. No idea about the other guy though, I can only assume he's from the same anime as Lune Zoldark With Red Hair.

...that's Noriko Takaya (http://www.hobbystuff4u.com/images/hobfig4366_596.jpg), Gunbuster's pilot.

Though she does look like a guy there. :P

Tengu
2008-05-07, 08:56 PM
Lune is a girl too...

Indeed, I know it's Gunbuster's pilot, just don't know her name. For a mecha fun I have seen surprisingly few actual mecha series.

black dragoon
2008-05-07, 09:04 PM
Yeah, I've seen pieces of Gunbuster and The new Giant Robo but that's about it for Super Robots. Reals are more my specialty.

Tengu
2008-05-07, 09:35 PM
I've only watched Eva and TTGL from super robots and FMP! and Nadesico from real ones. If computer games count too, add Xenogears and SRW.

black dragoon
2008-05-07, 09:40 PM
i've watched Eva and I was...
confused and scared. but that's no real surprise I was new to anime at the time and that's a real mindblower. does Voltron count?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-07, 09:45 PM
I'm rather limited on mecha myself. I can claim to have watched the original Mobile Suit Gundam, though (or at least the movie compilations). Speaking of which, the Gouf may only be a miniboss, but it's still awesome. As is the Big Zam, but that's going into mobile armor territory.

Also, need to watch Gunbuster. And Full Metal Panic! (all three). And Zeta Gundam. And the SRW OGs OVA. And this boxset of Azumanga Daioh I just bought because Borders had none of the above.

black dragoon
2008-05-07, 09:59 PM
Lucky, you still have a borders...
Yeah any mech I've mentioned I've seen the series and yeah the Gouf is awesome no matter what. The Rick Dom kicked a fair amount of ass in it's day as well. really that's just cause Gm's are wimps though:smallbiggrin:

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-07, 10:03 PM
Oh yeah, and the Gelgoog. Double-bladed lightsabers decades ahead of the West.

black dragoon
2008-05-07, 10:05 PM
Almost forgot that one. any Hy-gock fans in here nothing like stretchy mach arms!

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-07, 10:07 PM
You know, I think we should just give credit to Zeon as a whole, as they invented badass Real-types. Although they also gave us some goofy-looking stuff, they still stood head and shoulders above the Feddies in cool factor.