TWF, any good?

[neochaos]

My friend and I are arguing about efficiency of TWF. I told him that TWF needs lots of feats and gps, and standard two-hand weapon fighters can do lot more with that resources. But, he said TWF can be good at AoOs, using Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit and something...that enables him hit AoO with both weapons. Anyway, is TWF has any good? Can they be a tanker anyway?

[Talic]

TWF is best used when COMBINED with two hander fighting (using armor spikes, for example, or unarmed strikes, which can be with kicks as well).

Also, Two weapon fighting excels when you're focusing on it. Especially if you use status effect weapons, like wounding or disruption.

[Frosty]

TWF is good if you have a lot of things that activate based on every time you hit.

[Townopolis]

TWF is good if you can get CON damage on both weapons, as an example.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Most of the time, TWF is bad, but there's a few combinations where it can excel. The standard out-of-the-box TWF sucks, but TWF with a Greatsword and Armor Spikes, while hitting with a bunch of bonus damage from somewhere, is usually your best bet.

[Xuincherguixe]

Two Weapon Fighting is good for when you have some source of extra damage, such as sneak attack. But unless you're doing something a little weird, it probably isn't worth it.

[neochaos]

Two greater wounding katanas in Iaijustsu Master's hands, probably then?

[Matthew]

Two Weapon Fighting is good if you happen to have a level in Lion Totem Barbarian, have feats to burn, and have need of multiple attacks [i.e. for bonus damage, when facing many, many low level enemies, or to trigger some other effect].

[Frosty]

TWF goes decently with Bard/Crusader using Dragonfire Inspiration. Gogo +11d6 fire damage per hit!

[skywalker]

My friend and I are arguing about efficiency of TWF. I told him that TWF needs lots of feats and gps, and standard two-hand weapon fighters can do lot more with that resources. But, he said TWF can be good at AoOs, using Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit and something...that enables him hit AoO with both weapons. Anyway, is TWF has any good? Can they be a tanker anyway?

TWF does need twice the amount of gold if you want the same enhancements on both your weapons, and you probably can't beat the ubercharger leap attacking shock trooper barbarian, but, you do get to have more fun. What others have said is true, you almost certainly need a source of bonus damage(sneak attack, skirmish), and it is feat intensive.

One thing I would note is that both feats allowing you to make a two-weapon attack of opportunity are in dragon and the Miniatures Handbook, both sources which I would question the veracity of, especially Dragon. Also, the TWF-er may run low on AoOs in a round. Somebody smarter than me needs to tell us whether or not Robilar's increases your number of AoOs to however many you need, or not.

As another thread mentions, tanks are not as big a thing in D&D.

And please, stay away from the samurai.

[lord_khaine]

nothing wrong with the OA samurai

[Talic]

The 3.0 OA samurai was ok. The 3.5 base class is horrible.

That said, a good TWF build can and does beat a Standard garden variety greatsword wielding Shocktrooper. Not all the time, but it's a good matchup.

Let's go with one of my favorite weapons, the Kusari-gama. (DMG-Asian-themed weapons, p.159, I think) 1d6 light weapon with reach.

Times 2.

Make them both wounding. A full attack with 2 weapons (4 attacks primary, 3 attacks off hand) will deal a solid 7 hits against the ubercharge no AC build. That'll result in 14 con damage, along with (assuming Str 16) 7d6+28 Damage. Assuming your opponent is a barbarian with DR 4/-... 7d6 damage. Average of 24.5 damage + 14 con damage.

Not quite optimized enough, yet.

So let's go Whirling Dervish. Now double the attacks. 14 attacks, for an average of 49 damage and 28 Con damage. That'll do.

[asphen fox]

Get at least two levels of Tiger Claw Master and you're good to go :smallbiggrin:

[Project_Mayhem]

I'm currently playing a build yoinked off the Wizards char. op. boards that goes soemthing like Ninja 1/ Psy Warrior 2/ Ninja Several more/ warmind +

I've got it planned out, but part of the basic strategy works by using TWF coupled with Psionic Lions charge to get multiple Sudden Strike modifiers on a charge.

As this I'm playing from the ground up, at Lv2 I don't have PLC yet, but the TWF has been useful.

[shadow_archmagi]

I was always under the impression TWF was godly.

-2 to my attacks, but then I get to attack twice? That seems like a fair deal to me.

[Talic]

Compared to 1 attack, with no penalty, and power attack, it usually is the 2nd best option.

Basically, I can get 2 attacks, one for 1d8 + Str, and one for 1d6 + 1/2 Str. (not on a charge though)

Or, I can get 1 attack at 2d6+ 1.5 Str. (on a charge)

Now, I can take Power attack, and get 1 for 1 on the first, applies to 1 attack only, or 1 for 2.

Damage racks up faster with the 2 hander build.

[shadow_archmagi]

Or I could take a level of Swordsage and three levels of Swashbuckler. Now I get all my dex, all my int, and some of my str on every damage roll. Now that difference between 1d8+1d6 and 2d6 isn't too big.

[Eldariel]

THF has the big advantage in Power Attack, which tends to be melee's main source of damage. TWF works better with other sources of damage and something to synergize your unnecessarily high Dex with it. So yea, Sneak Attackers, Skirmishers, Sudden Strikers and many ToB-characters are better off dualwielding, while Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Crusaders, most Gishes and so on are better Power Attack THFers.

THF/Armor Spikes (or Unarmed Strike)-dualwielding gets by the Power Attack-issue. It just isn't as stylish though, and you'll be featstarved needing both, the PA line and the TWF-line. In fact, one of the biggest drawbacks to TWF is the fact that you need a large number of feats to make it comparable to THF; THF is good right off the bat, while you need all 3 TWF feats to even start to talk about efficient TWF.

[shadow_archmagi]

Really? I just stick with the one.

[Eldariel]

Skirmish Dervish is an example of an effective TWFer. Same goes for Pouncing (Charge)/Travel Devotion Swift Hunter. The best TWFer in Core is probably Fighter 4/Rogue 16 with potential few-level Assassin-dip for extra Sneak Attack (although the profittable dips tend to cost BAB, which is bad).

Also, just a Tiger Claw-based Martial Adept is a good example of an effective TWFer. Often using Stromguard Warrior or Shadow Blade makes it even more so, but just simple Tiger Claw-knowing Adept is going to be quite alright at the job (further it's rather effective to build a Strength-based Tiger Claw-adept thanks to Bloodclaw Master's ability as long as you can get Dex up to around 17 for ITWF; Wood Elf and inherent bonuses help a lot).

Worth noting, when fighting with two weapons of the same kind, Weapon Specialization > Melee Weapon Mastery can very well be worth it if you happen to have 4 levels of Fighter or any 6-level combination of Fighter, Warblade and Bloodstorm Blade; extra attacks really make the few points of extra damage add up faster, and being an Adept gives you ways to further increase your attack count (Raging Mongoose is 4 extra attacks and Time Stands Still can be around 8 extra attacks; that's only with full TWF and Haste).


Some builds such as Revenant Blade, OTWFer and Unarmed TWFer get past the Power Attack-limitations with varying effects (Revenant Blade is just devastating with Two-Weapon Two-Handed Power Attack), but that's not really necessary as long as you have enough sources of extra damage, such as all the mentioned ones.

[shadow_archmagi]

What book is Dervish IN!?

I keep seeing the name but I can't find the source...

[Eldariel]

Complete Warrior.

[Talic]

Yep, gives a Dervish Dance that's kinda like Rage, but you can make full attacks while moving (need to move 5 feet between attacks, and you provoke unless you tumble... which you should always do). Capstone level 10 ability is pretty much a fountain of blood, as you double all your attacks once a day while in the Dance.

So, if you're a silverbrow human fighter 10/dervish 10, and you have Prehensile tail and Dragon tail....

Feat 1 - Dragon Tail (Races of the Dragon)
Feat (human) - Prehensile Tail (Serpent Kingdoms)
Feat Fighter 1 - EWP Kusari-gama (weapon - DMG)
Feat Fighter 2 - Dodge
Feat 3 - Multiweapon Fighting (MM)
Feat Fighter 4 - Mobility
Feat 6 - Improved Multiweapon Fighting (MM)
Feat Fighter 6 - Weapon Focus Kusari-gama (weapon - DMG)
Feat Fighter 8 - Spring Attack
Feat 9 - Left Open
Feat Fighter 10 - Left Open
Feat 12 - Greater Multiweapon Fighting (MM)
Feat 15 - Left Open
Feat 18 - Left Open

14 Feats. By Level 12, you have 3 attacks primary, 3 attacks off hand, 3 attacks off tail.

Level 16 nets you your highest normal Attack Progression (4 main, 3 off hand, 3 tail)

Level 20 gets you the capstone attack double dance (Level 16 if you want to push back Dervish to level 7, which is what I'd do, personally)

[Eldariel]

Fighter 10/Dervish 10 is good feat-wise but generally you'll rather want Skirmish and so on. Dervishes are pretty much the most featstarved characters in the game though since they can benefit from a billion feats and have basically 7 preset feats when going for TWF version of the class to start with (Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Weapon Focus, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved, Greater) and 3 forced high stats (Dex, Con, Int) along with use for high Str and even Cha.

You generally want to utilize those weak trees to get strong capstones (get Elusive Target and Weapon Specialization/Melee Weapon Mastery off those forced feats) and synergize your combat style and abilities, which tends to take Deadly Defense, Combat Reflexes+Double Hit+Robilar's Gambit, Close-Quarter Fighting, Power Attack+OTWF (or just a different reading on the Slashing Blades-ability allowing you to use standard Scimitars as one-handed weapons for PA), Improved Critical (although you generally want an item instead since you just don't have the feats to burn), Shadow Blade (that again requires a non-Scimitar weapon) and so on. Basically, if a character could pick up a hundred feats, you could make one kickass Dervish.

As it stands, you also need class abilities to capitalize on it all; you need Skirmish to really get all outta it along with Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish (Dervish is always able to move that amount anyways so it's perfect addition, especially since Dervish has already high AC so the Skirmish helps too), Swashbuckler 3 for Int to damage, some ToB for Blood in Water-stance or a Shadow Hand-stance to go with Shadow Blade, Revenant Blade to wield the Two-Handed Power Attackable Double Scimitar, two levels in Champion of Corellon Larethian (plus being an Elf; no Human-feat to help) for Dex to damage and so on. Dervishes tend to be starved in all resources, which is why building an effective one tends to be difficult, but luckily they're strong enough to really not require all that.

[Talic]

Psh. 90% of the time, you'll be fine with Adamantine Kusari-gama +1, Wounding. (x3)

The other 10%? Go with a slightly lower attack bonus for Light Mace +1, Disruption. (x3)

That takes care of Living creatures, golems, and undead. Pretty much anything the D&D multiverse will throw at you, and for a heck of a lot less than a single +10 equivalent weapon. That gives you offensive punch.

If you have a bit more cash, put ghost touch on the maces.

For anything else? Well, if you're going against one of the very few things safe from this build, you at least have a party to back you up.

[Prince_of_Blades]

I always wanted to play a Swordsage/Swashbuckler/Bloodstorm Blade/Master Thrower. Dex, Int to damage, double touch attacks, some sneak attack, and it's all at range.

[The Sandman]

Wouldn't Snowflake Wardance work well with TWF? As long as you use, say, a kukri as the weapon in your off hand, you should get the additional to-hit for both weapons. And it gives you something to do with the other hand, since Snowflake Wardance prevents you from using a shield, or using both hands to wield your weapon.

[Kioran]

The 3.0 OA samurai was ok. The 3.5 base class is horrible.

That said, a good TWF build can and does beat a Standard garden variety greatsword wielding Shocktrooper. Not all the time, but it's a good matchup.

Let's go with one of my favorite weapons, the Kusari-gama. (DMG-Asian-themed weapons, p.159, I think) 1d6 light weapon with reach.

Times 2.

-snip -

If you can tell me how you want to wield two of these weapons (http://robertg.com/kusari.html), you know, inclusing their chains, without four arms, it´s a valid build.......

[Talic]

Like this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Weapon_Categories#Light.2C_One-Handed.2C_and_Two-Handed_Melee_Weapons).

Now get your silly real world logic out of my D&D.

[Kioran]

Like this (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Weapon_Categories#Light.2C_One-Handed.2C_and_Two-Handed_Melee_Weapons).

Now get your silly real world logic out of my D&D.

You mean you actually use Manipulate Form as written in your games? Can I play Pun-Pun?

[Talic]

Kusari-gama 1 handed does not equal Pun Pun.

Much like it does not equal Planar Sheperd.

This is an example of an argument style known as "straw man". You have created a distorted view of my position to attack, rather than debating it directly.

Certain abilities are outright banned from my games. Ones that I feel unbalance the game. Manipulate Form is one. Planar Sheperd is another.

However, that is hardly the same as: "Light weapons are 1 handed" and "Kusari-gama is a light weapon". Requires no thumbing through books for broken planes or (Su) abilities. Requires no special interpretation.

Is it a light weapon?
If yes, then it can be wielded 1 handed.

That's it. No more, no less.

And other, possibly unbalanced abilities have nothing to do with that. Nothing at all.

[Kioran]

Kusari-gama 1 handed does not equal Pun Pun.

Much like it does not equal Planar Sheperd.

This is an example of an argument style known as "straw man". You have created a distorted view of my position to attack, rather than debating it directly.

Certain abilities are outright banned from my games. Ones that I feel unbalance the game. Manipulate Form is one. Planar Sheperd is another.

However, that is hardly the same as: "Light weapons are 1 handed" and "Kusari-gama is a light weapon". Requires no thumbing through books for broken planes or (Su) abilities. Requires no special interpretation.

Is it a light weapon?
If yes, then it can be wielded 1 handed.

That's it. No more, no less.

And other, possibly unbalanced abilities have nothing to do with that. Nothing at all.

There´s no other light weapon with reach - nor a 1-handed one for that matter. Coincidence? Okay, the damage is adequate for a light weapon, but the rest of it is certainly to good for a light weapon.
And yes, it´s not nearly as overpowered as Pun-Pun, but it is in the same vein: A weapon/ability/Feat that is totally out of whack with the rest of the game if not used very sensibly.

The light weapon description is actually there to represent the Kusari-gama´s role as easy concealable, and not very strngth focused Ninja weapon. Using it otherwise shows not only an ignorance of japanese arms and culture on par with the mangled japanese in Lo5R sourcebooks, but also a lack of common sense both in regard to figthing styles and game balance.

So yes. The sourcebooks or esoteric nature have nothing to do with this. I could (and should, to disarm that argument) have used Candles of Invocation as an example, but this doesn´t change the nature of this.

[Talic]

There´s no other light weapon with reach - nor a 1-handed one for that matter. Coincidence? Okay, the damage is adequate for a light weapon, but the rest of it is certainly to good for a light weapon.
And yes, it´s not nearly as overpowered as Pun-Pun, but it is in the same vein: A weapon/ability/Feat that is totally out of whack with the rest of the game if not used very sensibly.Hm. Odd, I see no other two handed weapons with 2d6 damage. That must mean the Greatsword is too good.

Lesson to be learned here: Just because something is unique doesn't mean it's overpowered. Your argument is entirely on opinion. Reach, in your opinion, is too powerful, to give to a light weapon. Disarm/trip with a light weapon (and penalties for light weapon) is too powerful, in your opinion.

You're right. It's nowhere near in the range of Pun Pun or the like. Those abilities are directly unbalancing to the point of rendering everything else irrelevant. The kusari-gama? Lets you TWF with 10 foot reach. Let's see... will that destroy every combat encounter, and render irrelevant every non-combat encounter? No? Then it's not broken. Perhaps a bit above the power curve, but not to the point of being remotely broken.

If Wizards had wanted to reflect a weapon that was 2 handed and easy to hide, they could have just made a two handed weapon with bonuses to hide. They didn't.


The light weapon description is actually there to represent the Kusari-gama´s role as easy concealable, and not very strngth focused Ninja weapon. Using it otherwise shows not only an ignorance of japanese arms and culture on par with the mangled japanese in Lo5R sourcebooks, but also a lack of common sense both in regard to figthing styles and game balance.
Those points are perfectly fine to state. They're also perfectly irrelevant to the fact that by RAW, a nonmagical light weapon in core has reach. Next point?


So yes. The sourcebooks or esoteric nature have nothing to do with this. I could (and should, to disarm that argument) have used Candles of Invocation as an example, but this doesn´t change the nature of this.
You're right. The nature being, by RAW, you are incorrect in stating it's an invalid build. Further, by RAW, I am not incorrect in stating it's valid.

And, for reference, if the Core rulebooks have nothing to do with how D&D should be played.... What does?

Any other arguments/questions on the real world Kusari-gama and its limitations or implications might be better addressed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18302).

Bottom line, asian themed items aren't the only things that suffer. Look for common real world usage of Greatswords, and spiked chains. It's not really there. But that's the "barbarian and euro-medieval" thing... even though it has no reference in Europe or barbarian history.

In other words... It's a game. It's not real life. Try not to treat it like the latter, too awfully much.