Conan the Barbarian vs the Witch King

[Artemician]

The same way you might say "The ghost of EE shall not be hurt by the non magical weapons you bear"
Its Tolkien, he loves dramatics, that doesn't mean it isn't a protection
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Not being slain by a man, because he was protected against men. Eowyn wasn't the only person who could have hurt him, any women could have hurt him
...
Yes there is, the same evidence you use the claim prophecy. It never specifically calls it a prophecy.

It's never stated anywhere that it's a protection. It is also not stated anywhere that it is a prophecy. It could simply be a statement. However, statements have motives. Why does Glorfindel make such a strange remark?

I choose to believe that it is because Glorfindel is prophecizing that the Witch King will not be slain by a Man. That is, he is making a prediction for the future: "I believe that the Witch-King's ultimate killer will not be a man."

I do not have enough proof for this statement. However, you likewise do not have enough proof that Glorfindel is making this statement because there is a specific enchantment on the Witch King that prevents men from ever killing him. Therefore you can't use it as an argument.


Wait, what? I think your saying that wrong, if a Werewolf cannot be slain except by Silver of Fire, then saying that an Iron sword can't hurt them is accurate right?

I did say that, yo.

[EvilElitest]

It's never stated anywhere that it's a protection. It is also not stated anywhere that it is a prophecy. It could simply be a statement. However, statements have motives. Why does Glorfindel make such a strange remark?

1)However it acts as an enchantment. A prophecy i think would require an actual you know, prophecy
2) Glorfindel was talking to a man. As of such, the idea was that this man couldn't hurt him.
3) Also, i'm under the impression that people thought it was a prophecy, you know, something that couldn't be manipulated. Turns out somebody who wasn't a living man could hurt him


I choose to believe that it is because Glorfindel is prophecizing that the Witch King will not be slain by a Man. That is, he is making a prediction for the future: "I believe that the Witch-King's ultimate killer will not be a man."

I think he was noting a protection


I do not have enough proof for this statement. However, you likewise do not have enough proof that Glorfindel is making this statement because there is a specific enchantment on the Witch King that prevents men from ever killing him. Therefore you can't use it as an argument.

Actually no. I have slightly more evidence. We know that living men cannot hurt the WK. Cause regardless, we know that living men can't hurt him

Yet again, i make reference to WK's argument


I did say that, yo.

Oh your right, damn glasses
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

It's never stated anywhere that it's a protection. It is also not stated anywhere that it is a prophecy. It could simply be a statement. However, statements have motives. Why does Glorfindel make such a strange remark?

I choose to believe that it is because Glorfindel is prophecizing that the Witch King will not be slain by a Man. That is, he is making a prediction for the future: "I believe that the Witch-King's ultimate killer will not be a man."

I do not have enough proof for this statement. However, you likewise do not have enough proof that Glorfindel is making this statement because there is a specific enchantment on the Witch King that prevents men from ever killing him. Therefore you can't use it as an argument.

I've said it before on other threads, but I agree with Artemician here. It is simpler to imagine that there is some sort of prophecy-like effect going on here than to assume that Glorfindel can sense some sort of anti-Man enchantment but doesn't specify it ("Lo, he has woven a spell around him such that no Man may harm him" or something similar would have been more appropriate than "not by the hand of man will he fall").

The only spell that is mentioned in any form on this matter is the "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.." To me, that implies it's a general "my body doesn't care if you hit it because I'm willing it to be ok no matter what you do, nya nya" than the same with "unless you're not a man" tacked onto the end. The spell is broken due to the sword, not the swordsman (swordshobbit?).

[Dervag]

I think he was noting a protectionOK, and I think he wasn't noting a protection. Now we're tied one to one. The only way to break the tie is with proof. Where is your proof?


Actually no. I have slightly more evidence. We know that living men cannot hurt the WK. Cause regardless, we know that living men can't hurt himNo, we do not know any such thing. We know some living men have tried to hurt the Witch King and failed. But all that proves is that they weren't strong enough. It does not prove that some other, stronger man (such as Aragorn or Conan the Barbarian) couldn't do it.


Yet again, i make reference to WK's argumentThis is a detail of the English language that perhaps you do not know. The Witch King says "no living man may hinder me." "Hinder" does not mean "kill" or "harm." It means "stop" or "delay."

Now, even you would agree that the Witch King does not have a magic protection against being delayed by living men. Even if he has a protection against being killed, that doesn't mean he has a protection against being delayed.

What the Witch King is saying is: "I am so badass and strong that there is literally no man alive in the world who can stop me from doing whatever I want." That's why he isn't afraid when he learns that Eowyn is a woman. He thinks "No man can stop me, surely this woman cannot stop me either."

He is not saying "I have a specific magical protection that makes me immune to being harmed by men." If he had such a protection, you can bet he'd be more cautious about going into a big fight where there might be some women sneaking around. Perhaps, in whatever language you read the books in, the passage is translated differently. But that's what is being said in the original English.


no we are following the conventional rules and common sense.You are doing no such thing. You are simply making up rules at random, rules that no other person agrees to or even knows about, and pretending that they are conventional rules. It's a foul debating tactic, and one that makes you look more foolish than you deserve or intend.


" Far off is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall."
it just says he won't be killed by a man, the same way you might say a were wolf won't be killed by a iron swordBut it doesn't mean that the Witch King has to have an "anti-man" force field the way you pretend he does. You have absolutely no proof for your claim that the Witch King has an "anti-man" shield. You have quoted nothing. You have proven nothing. Perhaps, in your own mind, it is proven. But unless you care to share this proof with us, we have no reason to believe anything you say about it.


1) When did they have the chance? IN most of the major battles they are ether you know, routed or being chased by men with the pointy sticks, or fighting calvery which is hard, or it is day light. They snipe a lot during hte battle of Helm's Deep, but those are Uruks who don't see as well a night and the main characters have plot armor. Even then they kill a good many Rohan folks
2) Even then, they do pretty well for them selfs. Isildur, who is a very strong man, half was a across a river before he even becomes visable is shot down by one arrow i think, Boromir of course, Frodo is hit in the chest three times (chain shirt) same has a back back shot, Gandalf gets his hat shot, gimili gets show in the armor, boromir uses his shield ect. Also most of the time the use arrows they aren't in a situaiton where they can say "Hey, that dude killed ten of my buds, i'll aim for himWe know orcs use archery a lot. I wouldn't call it sniping, because sniping has different connotations. A sniper will normally have a strategy about who to shoot and why. An ordinary soldier, even a very great rifleman or archer, will not.

I agree that the orcs use archery a lot, though in most of the situations in the book where people get shot with orc arrows nobody knows how many orcs are shooting. It's possible, even probable, that there are many orcs firing and that they're just saturating the area with arrows. Since that's the standard tactic for using archers in a large battle, you're totally right that orcs make fairly good archers, though.


one back and supported by the booksHow? Where? Can you give me a post number where you explain this?


However this is not specifically stated in the vs. thread situation. We are given 500 standard troops and 2,000 standard orcs. Normally these guys don't have women in the armed forces.Granted. On the other hand, in the "vs. thread situation" Conan has a magic belt that allows him to harm the Witch King himself, and therefore needs no woman soldier or love interest to do it for him.


1) When i say not nerfed, i don't mean "only with personal bodyguard" i mean with all of their stuff. Which gives the WK a force in the hundreds of thousands from mordor alone (he has two ages of forces to rally) and plenty of nastiesDefine "their" stuff. The Witch King is Sauron's subject. Sauron can decide how many orcs and weapons to let the Witch King have. It's ridiculous to say that the Witch King "should" always be surrounded by an army that makes up a large fraction of the forces of Mordor. We know he isn't always surrounded by such an army.


2) A belt that from my first post i have been doubtful of its cannon ability. Does it say (in the original books that is). Does it say that he can't get hurt by any magic, does it nullify magic, does it let him hurt literally anything? (from what i recall, the stone sorcerer had to be tricked to hurt him, why didn't he just use the belt

3) and from all accounts, the sword and the belt are non cannoical, in which we are going against all of the ideas of vs. thread, IE, you don't give characters powers they have never posses. For example, we could give the WK a rocket launcher, but i don't think that really says anything about the WK's power, just the nifftyness of a rocket launcher EE, don't be deliberately obtuse. Zenos put that belt there in the original post for a reason. And that reason was to stop people from saying "No man can harm the Witch King, game over." The belt is defined to allow Conan to harm the Witch King, and also to give him some magic resistance. That's part of the setup, just like the Witch King's orcs and Conan's sword. I neither know nor care what reasons you have for doubting that the belt can do what Zenos says it does in the book, because in this thread it can do what Zenos says it does.

Now, if you want to say "this is as ridiculous as giving the Witch King a rocket launcher, it violates my idea of a vs. thread, I don't want to talk about this anymore," fine. But right now you're just lying about the setup, pretending Conan does not have a weapon he has specifically been given in the original post. Do you want to pretend that he has no soldiers at all, or no weapons, while you're at it?


Which brings be back to another point, where does the belt come from? I mean you can't have these people fighting with non canon stuff. Does the belt come from a storyWhen Conan fights magical 'invincible' enemies in his own stories, he often gets some help from a friendly wizard or an artifact he finds that allows him to harm his enemy. Look at the story "The Devil in Iron" for an example.

So I say that the belt, or at least the idea of it, comes from a Conan story.


from Wiki, i imagine that he is like Aragorn. Good but not unbeatableHe is, but he has a somewhat broader skill set than Aragorn because he's had a more varied career. And one of the things he has done many times is escape from a city or a bunch of ruins with an army chasing him, carrying a bag of treasure and with the love interest either over his shoulder or riding behind him on his horse. He does that a LOT (as in, about every other story). In this case, there's no love interest and no treasure, but he's still got a good chance of escaping if that's all he's trying to do. Remember, for this purpose, we're not talking about him killing a whole army. We're talking about him running away from a whole army, and maybe killing a few enemies who are directly in his way.


I fail to see what is wrong with the reason. I don't think it is called a prophecy in the books, it is shown to be a protection .


With a deserting army? In good situations i agree. But with Conan not being able to keep his men from fleeing in pure terror?Do you not understand "the odds are stacked against him?" That means "he is not very likely to win." I think he has only a SMALL chance of winning. He has a pretty good chance of escaping personally, but he is very unlikely to win.

In a more favorable situation (say, broad daylight), he'd have a better chance. In that case, he'd probably be able to shoot down the Witch King if said Witch King tried his 'fly over the battlefield' trick, and engage the Witch King on the ground if he tried it on the ground.


However he is careful, and sense nine whole armies
1) The army of Morgul, led by the WK. This is the greatest army to ever appear in the third age and is larger than the other eight armies put together. The do most of the grunt fighting
2) The black ships. 50 great ships, and i think about 150 smaller ships, a might fleet who are suppose to destroy Gondor's vassal realms and cut off supplies
3) The army of Harad. This army supports army 1 and is directly attacked by Rohan.
4) the army of the east, easterlings and what not. Also supports army one
5) The army of Othgiliath. This one was already at the city waiting for the Wk to arrive. They attack first and weaken Faramir's forces
6) another force from mordor, second largest army there is. Act as a general support
7) the army that is sent to cut off Rohan. The movie got it wrong, in the book an army was sent that was large enough to cut off the 6,000 riders, who, even with the element of surprise and calvary, admitted to standing no chance. However the went through the woods
8) the men of far harad/lesser men/Varags/cross breeds show up near the end of the battle, extra troops to fight when the sun comes up
9) Rear guard, under Gothmog, comes in near the end.I'm not sure all these troops are available in separate armies, but I agree all of them exist. Except maybe (6). Not sure about that one.


The battle is really really long against a lot of guys. Even with all of his advantages, Sauron plays it smart, uses siege machinery and tries to destroy gondor from within. However they almost win, here are the Deus ex machina
1) Gandalf shows up. gandalf wasn't even suppose to escape from Isengard, let along get a magic horse and randomly show up at Gondor and drive the Nazgul away
2) Denethor is stopped, and so the chain of command doesn't totally fall apart
3) The riders even get there, there weren't suppose to show up in the first place
4) The Woses come to aid them/the riders use the super secret pass through the woods and flank Sauron
5) The light!!!!!!! The power of the west destroys Sauron's cloud that blotted out the sun. Sucks for Sauron
6) The ghosts show up and destroy his navy
7) The men from the places where his navy should have destroyed instead get on the ships and attack Sauron's own men from behind, after getting into their ranks
8) Aragorn and a small army of elves and northern rangers show up.
9) The WK is miget shanked.
so nine, i'm sorry
Even then, massive battle and remember two things
1) Sauron recovers from the battle, he is fine. He lost a vanguard, but from a military point of view, he is fine.
2) Sauron's army would have been even bigger, but he thought that Aragorn was going to claim the ring, and so he attacked earlyMost of what you call deus ex machina isn't. "Deus Ex Machina" does not mean "I lost because something I didn't expect happened." It means something like "God descended from on high and saved the enemy when nothing else could possibly have saved the day because I had destroyed all hope of 'normal' reinforcements."

In Sauron's case he tried to block 'good guy' reinforcements and send reinforcements of his own to the battle, like any decent general would. But he could do that BECAUSE HE HAD A BIG ARMY. It was easy for him to send one army over here and another army over there and so on, because he had a lot of armies. The good guys, with a smaller number of smaller armies, had to sneak past his larger armies to win.

But it's not obvious that Sauron was a genius tactician for doing this. He had such a large army he could easily afford to both lay siege to Minas Tirith and use other armies to block reinforcements.


Oh publishes skill is fine, but you can't automatically assume he will be able to slaughter the orcsI didn't. I assume he will be able to escape 2000 orcs in the ruins of Osgiliath, because he's done things like that so many times in the stories. Will he win the battle and slaughter the orcs? Probably not. He might be able to do it. Almost no other human being could do it, but Conan is really good at being both a general and an individual warrior, so I think it's barely possible.

But I was talking about Conan escaping, not about Conan winning.


Here is the thing, simply giving Conan, or any character non canon powers tends to be counter productive to the point of vs. threads. People like to know how their characters work and who is most powerful. Hence closed circuit, full power, unaware of other's powers ect. So the belt doesn't make sense.No. In this case, it isn't unproductive and it does make sense. You see, without the belt the fight is boring. Any idiot knows that if Conan (a man), with an army of other men, fights an enemy no man can kill, then they'll lose. It's so obvious that there's no point in even talking about it at length.

And while YOU might possibly post a versus thread where the outcome was obvious in advance and no sane person could doubt it, most of us wouldn't. When most people set up a vs. thread, they at least TRY to balance it. In this case, the balancing factor is the belt, which gives Conan a chance of killing the Witch King and breaking the enemy forces.

Then you come in and say "oh well the belt doesn't count." Which allows you to make a big deal out of the completely obvious fact that if a bunch of men fight an enemy none of them can kill, they will lose. Everybody else already knows that, you see. That's why the belt is required to make the fight interesting. And unlike you, I am perfectly capable of accepting that it's in the fight even if it isn't a "canon power" of either side, because I like interesting battles more than one-sided battles.

[GoC]

No one else has this, to bypass the WKs shield.
Swords can hurt him, they just get destroyed afterwards.
Sword to the face is effective even against the WK.


he has snipers as almost every one of his soldiers.
Yep. Definitely. Stated in the books in fact.


Seriously people, put some of our facts into consideration... actual consideration.
I consider your facts and admit I don't know who'll win so I ignore that matter for now and just correct inaccuracies in peoples posts.


Um, nor does he quote anything to say it wasn't a spell. If it was a prophecy, at least in the Oracle of Delphi sense, i imagine he wouldn't be flaunting it in such a manner. Really, considering spell or natrual abilty inherent to the WK is the more logical manner, i mean it is like how vampires can't be hurt by non silver weapons. This isn't like "you shall kill your own brother" This is basically "living men can't hurt me"
I'll let others waste their time debating this with you. You're almost certainly not going to be convinced.


elves, particularly those of such heritage basically are super human in ME. You can't argue against that. They aren't godly by any stretch, but certanly uber. And you have two extremly powerful humans
I didn't say they didn't have abilities better than what a human has, I said their strength, stamina and toughness is equivalent to a Homo Sapiens.


oh he is good, i don't deny it, but he when he defeated large forces i imagine he had a few advantages to turn the tide. Knowledge of the terrain, defensive positions, lack of giant nazgul
I don't know...
He supposedly moves around a lot and encounters armies here and there so I don't think knowledge of the terrain has been a factor. However the ability to analyze the terrain and find an advantage might help.


meh, no way to tell
True, just giving other posibilities.


This isn't fanboyness, this is logic. For example, i imagine there are plenty of people who can defeat the WK. Conan, cool as he may be, just isn't one of them
You do agree that Susan Sto Helit would destroy WK easily right?:smallbiggrin:

[EvilElitest]

OK, and I think he wasn't noting a protection. Now we're tied one to one. The only way to break the tie is with proof. Where is your proof?
[/QUOTE}
The fact that he has protection from living men, regardless of cause. We know that he is immune to any attacks from living men. Some say prophecy, but you need more evidence to prove prophecy than you need to prove simple protection

[QUOTE]No, we do not know any such thing. We know some living men have tried to hurt the Witch King and failed. But all that proves is that they weren't strong enough. It does not prove that some other, stronger man (such as Aragorn or Conan the Barbarian) couldn't do it.

"No living man shall hinder me"
So Aragorn and Canon can't hurt him anyways. It didn't say "No living man except for the really badass ones can hinder me"



This is a detail of the English language that perhaps you do not know. The Witch King says "no living man may hinder me." "Hinder" does not mean "kill" or "harm." It means "stop" or "delay."
"Far off is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall"
In this context, and in the context of the fight he means that be hurt by any living man. Remember, when he said hinder, he was taking about how Eowyn was trying to stand in his way


Now, even you would agree that the Witch King does not have a magic protection against being delayed by living men. Even if he has a protection against being killed, that doesn't mean he has a protection against being delayed.

Glorfindal'st statement stops taht argument right there


What the Witch King is saying is: "I am so badass and strong that there is literally no man alive in the world who can stop me from doing whatever I want." That's why he isn't afraid when he learns that Eowyn is a woman. He thinks "No man can stop me, surely this woman cannot stop me either."

1) No, because regardless of cause, there is some sort of protection, as Glorfindal showed
2) Also, he gets more afraid when he finds out Eowyn is a women. When he things she is a man he is just sitting their laughing. When he finds out that she is a women he attacks all out. Then get midget shanked




He is not saying "I have a specific magical protection that makes me immune to being harmed by men." If he had such a protection, you can bet he'd be more cautious about going into a big fight where there might be some women sneaking around. Perhaps, in whatever language you read the books in, the passage is translated differently. But that's what is being said in the original English.

1) um, i speak English, what are you talking about
2) If you haven't noticed, in all of Tolkien's books there are normally no women fighters among the race of man. SO considering he lives in a male dominated society where women fighters are not only unlikely, but would generally be considered lesser, he is being arrogant and cocky. LIke in real life in the old days, a women fighter is very unexpected



You are doing no such thing. You are simply making up rules at random, rules that no other person agrees to or even knows about, and pretending that they are conventional rules. It's a foul debating tactic, and one that makes you look more foolish than you deserve or intend.
where are getting these things. Please, before you make foul accusations, at least make sure you understand what you are accusing me of

1) In every normal vs. thread, we assume the fighters aren't aware of their foe. Because it makes no sense for them to be aware (normally). I mean, how would Conan have any idea of something like the WK. Has he read LOtRs? Has he watched the movies? Has he been reading this thread? No. He has simply been put into a nasty situation against an unknown foe. Same with the Wk. he doesn't know which human is the commander, nor taht he can at least rally some of his army. Unless the thread is designed with teh specific statement that these guys have been briefed about each other, or that they would have some in world power to understand the other (for example, if this was the Highlander, he might have read LOtR) you can't make such an assumption
2) Your calling me a liar? At least do you research. Link vs. Seph, Sauron vs. Voldemort, Sauron vs. LK, match to make my sister cry, Uruk-hai vs. Romans, ect, all work under the assumption that never side is aware of the other prior to there meating
3) I expected better from you. You make the claim of being an understanding person and pull this off. Bad form



But it doesn't mean that the Witch King has to have an "anti-man" force field the way you pretend he does. You have absolutely no proof for your claim that the Witch King has an "anti-man" shield. You have quoted nothing. You have proven nothing. Perhaps, in your own mind, it is proven. But unless you care to share this proof with us, we have no reason to believe anything you say about it.
We know in the books that for what ever reason, a living man can't hurt him. Other wise, why would Glorfindal stop his friend, or why would Eowyn's gender make any difference in the least


because sniping has different connotations. A sniper will normally have a strategy about who to shoot and why. An ordinary soldier, even a very great rifleman or archer, will not.

They snipe in Moria and they kill Hurin (I think, guy got shot in the eye at the battle of unnumbered tears, brother got captured by Morgoth)


I agree that the orcs use archery a lot, though in most of the situations in the book where people get shot with orc arrows nobody knows how many orcs are shooting. It's possible, even probable, that there are many orcs firing and that they're just saturating the area with arrows. Since that's the standard tactic for using archers in a large battle, you're totally right that orcs make fairly good archers, though.
Actually in some of those cases we are given a number, or at least a range. The orcs in moria weren't a lot at first (more came) remember only 13 came in to fight before the troll showed up and got midget shanked


How? Where? Can you give me a post number where you explain this?

Its dicussed on the first few pages of the thread


Granted. On the other hand, in the "vs. thread situation" Conan has a magic belt that allows him to harm the Witch King himself, and therefore needs no woman soldier or love interest to do it for him.

A belt that is of debatable cannon. Some people say it isn't cannon, some people say it is but with different powers. can we have a definite reveal on that


Define "their" stuff. The Witch King is Sauron's subject. Sauron can decide how many orcs and weapons to let the Witch King have. It's ridiculous to say that the Witch King "should" always be surrounded by an army that makes up a large fraction of the forces of Mordor. We know he isn't always surrounded by such an army.

1) Actually, considering he is the king of Morgul, or Angmar depending on the time, normally he would be surrounded by an army at home. He only leaves when ordered to be Sauron, like the Siege or when they were going after the ring.
2) Alright Sauron isn't a complete moron. Why would he give him only 2,000?
3) As i said before, both sides should be at full power.



EE, don't be deliberately obtuse. Zenos put that belt there in the original post for a reason. And that reason was to stop people from saying "No man can harm the Witch King, game over." The belt is defined to allow Conan to harm the Witch King, and also to give him some magic resistance. That's part of the setup, just like the Witch King's orcs and Conan's sword. I neither know nor care what reasons you have for doubting that the belt can do what Zenos says it does in the book, because in this thread it can do what Zenos says it does.
The purpose of vs. threads is so that we can find out which side is more powerful in a certain situation. In order to reach said conclusion, we use their canonical powers. If we don't do that, then the situation gets absurd. I mean the Wk with a nuke would certainly, that doesn't make him more powerful. Or Conan with a tank. One side might win, but it doesn't prove anything more than "hey, i can tweak the situation to change the nature of the characters and the fight's results

If you want to know who is more powerful, the LK or Sauron, and you give Sauron a modern weapon system, you haven't proven that Sauron is better, you've just proven that he can win because he has nukes. That doesn't prove anything
If Conan has a belt in his stories that can grant him magical power, fine. By all means. But we need to know what that belt can do



Now, if you want to say "this is as ridiculous as giving the Witch King a rocket launcher, it violates my idea of a vs. thread, I don't want to talk about this anymore," fine. But right now you're just lying about the setup, pretending Conan does not have a weapon he has specifically been given in the original post. Do you want to pretend that he has no soldiers at all, or no weapons, while you're at it?
no i want him to have his own cannon equipment. I am under the impression he has an army (or more than one) in his own books. I am also under the impression that he has his own magical items he can use.



When Conan fights magical 'invincible' enemies in his own stories, he often gets some help from a friendly wizard or an artifact he finds that allows him to harm his enemy. Look at the story "The Devil in Iron" for an example.
However the belt doesn't do this for him, he finds something else to help him


So I say that the belt, or at least the idea of it, comes from a Conan story.
ok, in his story what does the belt do exactly?



He is, but he has a somewhat broader skill set than Aragorn because he's had a more varied career. And one of the things he has done many times is escape from a city or a bunch of ruins with an army chasing him, carrying a bag of treasure and with the love interest either over his shoulder or riding behind him on his horse. He does that a LOT (as in, about every other story). In this case, there's no love interest and no treasure, but he's still got a good chance of escaping if that's all he's trying to do. Remember, for this purpose, we're not talking about him killing a whole army. We're talking about him running away from a whole army, and maybe killing a few enemies who are directly in his way.
1) I was talking about fighting skills, but fair enough, more experience than Aragorn in some levels
2) Just because somebody has done something many times doesn't mean they can every time
3) and most importantly, i don't think the situation is his escape, it is his victory. At least against the WK



Do you not understand "the odds are stacked against him?" That means "he is not very likely to win." I think he has only a SMALL chance of winning. He has a pretty good chance of escaping personally, but he is very unlikely to win.
I think that he has next to no chance. If the WK wasn't there, or was on horse back he be much better off


In a more favorable situation (say, broad daylight), he'd have a better chance. In that case, he'd probably be able to shoot down the Witch King if said Witch King tried his 'fly over the battlefield' trick, and engage the Witch King on the ground if he tried it on the ground.

Wouldn't the WK fly out of range like he did at Minas Tirith? Oh well


I'm not sure all these troops are available in separate armies, but I agree all of them exist. Except maybe (6). Not sure about that one.

They come from the black gate. Also they are different armies, different forces coming from different places


Most of what you call deus ex machina isn't. "Deus Ex Machina" does not mean "I lost because something I didn't expect happened." It means something like "God descended from on high and saved the enemy when nothing else could possibly have saved the day because I had destroyed all hope of 'normal' reinforcements."
all of those were extremly unexpected and no way in hell he could have normally expected them. Or at least most of them



In Sauron's case he tried to block 'good guy' reinforcements and send reinforcements of his own to the battle, like any decent general would. But he could do that BECAUSE HE HAD A BIG ARMY. It was easy for him to send one army over here and another army over there and so on, because he had a lot of armies. The good guys, with a smaller number of smaller armies, had to sneak past his larger armies to win.
1) Having a big army doesn't mean your a moron. He used his big army in a very rational manner. Also he made sure that he didn't over extend himself, remember that he had a far larger army back home in case anything bad happened
2) Also, look at Xerces, having a big army doesn't mean anything if you can't use it right. Or Napoleon in Russia.
3) Sauron made no tactical blunders, at least not in the conventional sense in that battle, except destroying his enemies outer wall.



But it's not obvious that Sauron was a genius tactician for doing this. He had such a large army he could easily afford to both lay siege to Minas Tirith and use other armies to block reinforcements.

Which is a smart thing to do. The way he used his big army, and in fact all of his fights across the entire book were actually very smart. At no point do you look at Sauron and say "you moron, you should have seen that coming" Remember, sending Frodo into moron is a stupid idea, it was so stupid that it just might work



No. In this case, it isn't unproductive and it does make sense. You see, without the belt the fight is boring. Any idiot knows that if Conan (a man), with an army of other men, fights an enemy no man can kill, then they'll lose. It's so obvious that there's no point in even talking about it at length.

Then give him some other magical stuff he has. Or give him some actual female warriors he has worked with. Or give him more troops. I'm sure he has plenty over hte course of his many stories


And while YOU might possibly post a versus thread where the outcome was obvious in advance and no sane person could doubt it, most of us wouldn't. When most people set up a vs. thread, they at least TRY to balance it. In this case, the balancing factor is the belt, which gives Conan a chance of killing the Witch King and breaking the enemy forces.
Are you kidding me, both sides are totally nerfed in this. I'm sure Conan has many many magical items that he isn't being given in this situation. If you looked through his cannon books, i'm sure you could find a whole multitude of stuff he could use
from
EE

[Artemician]

1)However it acts as an enchantment. A prophecy i think would require an actual you know, prophecy
2) Glorfindel was talking to a man. As of such, the idea was that this man couldn't hurt him.
3) Also, i'm under the impression that people thought it was a prophecy, you know, something that couldn't be manipulated. Turns out somebody who wasn't a living man could hurt him

Why the hell would it act as an enchantment? When Glorfindel says that the Witch King will not fall to Man, he's not putting an enchantment on werewolves to be immune to Men. He's can either be saying that

a) That the Witch King cannot be slain by a Man

or

b) That the Witch King will not be slain by a Man

There is no evidence to go either way, and as such we cannot claim either interpretation as true to reasonable doubt. We cannot use them in arguments.


Actually no. I have slightly more evidence. We know that living men cannot hurt the WK. Cause regardless, we know that living men can't hurt him

Yet again, i make reference to WK's argument

I am unable to locate any paragraph that says "The Witch King would have been incapacitated by this blow, but due to his Men-Hating enchantment, he was not affected". The Witch King has personal protections, no doubt. But other than this one line (of dubious interpretation) there is no evidence to suggest that he has a Anti-Man Enchantment in effect.

Why couldn't anyone hurt him except Eowyn? You answered it yourself. He's a Nazgul. Nazgul are extremely resistant to mundane weaponry. The reason Eowyn could hurt him was because Merry stabbed him with an anti-nazgul weapon.

Either that or Eowyn was fated to kill him (given the "Prophecy" interpretation of Glorfindel's words, but because we have no evidence for that I'm not going to use this argument)

The Witch-King's boast could be due to the prophecy (making him assured that he would not die to a man) or it could be due to his awareness of his own abilities. The Witch-King thinks that no living man can match him or hinder him. Whether this confidence comes from an Anti-Man enchantment placed on him or from the Witch-King's assumption that nobody would have the skills or weapons to defeat him is something we don't know.

Given that we can't confirm the nature of the Witch King's Androphobic Aura, it would be best not to take one interpretation as total fact.

[EvilRoeSlade]

Flying over the battle out of arrow range might be great for the Witch King's short term survival but while doing that he could neither command his army nor I hazard a guess, employ his breath weapon that causes fear and disease?

I would assume that the Witch King would swoop down on his mount to employ his breath weapon, but the first or second time he did this Conan would shoot him out of the sky.

[EvilElitest]

Why the hell would it act as an enchantment? When Glorfindel says that the Witch King will not fall to Man, he's not putting an enchantment on werewolves to be immune to Men. He's can either be saying that

a) That the Witch King cannot be slain by a Man

or

b) That the Witch King will not be slain by a Man

There is no evidence to go either way, and as such we cannot claim either interpretation as true to reasonable doubt. We cannot use them in arguments.



Ether way, men can't hurt the WK. For what ever reason, he is unable to be hurt by a women. Prophecy or protection, we know he can't be hurt by living men.

However cna Conan shape shift or has an item that can allow him to do that. Because a hobbit can harm him


I am unable to locate any paragraph that says "The Witch King would have been incapacitated by this blow, but due to his Men-Hating enchantment, he was not affected". The Witch King has personal protections, no doubt. But other than this one line (of dubious interpretation) there is no evidence to suggest that he has a Anti-Man Enchantment in effect.
No male character can hurt him however.


Why couldn't anyone hurt him except Eowyn? You answered it yourself. He's a Nazgul. Nazgul are extremely resistant to mundane weaponry. The reason Eowyn could hurt him was because Merry stabbed him with an anti-nazgul weapon.
Wait, Eowyn could hurt him for two reasons

1) She is not a living man
2) Merry, who was a hobbit not a Man had destoryed his protection against non magical weapons

Either that or Eowyn was fated to kill him (given the "Prophecy" interpretation of Glorfindel's words, but because we have no evidence for that I'm not going to use this argument)
They do mention i think that only she could have hurt him because of her gender. It doesn't say anything about protection or prophicy i think


The Witch-King's boast could be due to the prophecy (making him assured that he would not die to a man) or it could be due to his awareness of his own abilities. The Witch-King thinks that no living man can match him or hinder him. Whether this confidence comes from an Anti-Man enchantment placed on him or from the Witch-King's assumption that nobody would have the skills or weapons to defeat him is something we don't know.
1) Well we know there is some sort of anti man magic at work, be it prophecy or protection and the WK is aware of it
2) considering his reaction when he found out she was a women, i'd say he is at least aware of this unique protection


Given that we can't confirm the nature of the Witch King's Androphobic Aura, it would be best not to take one interpretation as total fact.

It is some sort of Androphobic Aura, so it is still valid in vs. thread. Cause regardless




Flying over the battle out of arrow range might be great for the Witch King's short term survival but while doing that he could neither command his army nor I hazard a guess, employ his breath weapon that causes fear and disease?

I would assume that the Witch King would swoop down on his mount to employ his breath weapon, but the first or second time he did this Conan would shoot him out of the sky.
1) i already said, the Black Shadow still works while in the air. Conan would be fine, but not his men. Same goes for fear and despair
2) True, but he would have given his orcs commands at the start then flown above to weaken his foes. As I said, he would come down if his men were about to lose. But could Conan do that when he is already outnumbered, at night, against foes who know hte area, in unfamilar terrain, with men who are going to be running away or giving up hope or getting sick.
from
EE

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Conans not just a man, he's a BARBARIAN! RAR! :smallwink:

Seriously however, well the prophecy says the Witch King cannot be hurt by men (or w/e) but does that mean he can't be hurt by flying swords? Because Conan is quite proficient in throwing weaponry at people.

[EvilElitest]

Conans not just a man, he's a BARBARIAN! RAR! :smallwink:

Seriously however, well the prophecy says the Witch King cannot be hurt by men (or w/e) but does that mean he can't be hurt by flying swords? Because Conan is quite proficient in throwing weaponry at people.

I think if Conan was the one throwing the sword. If he threw the sword, then it dropped, um, yes?
from
EE

[Lord_Asmodeus]

Well, if he bounced it off a wall, would that count? Or maybe if he used a catapult. True, he would be firing it, but it wouldn't be HIM attacking per se, it would be a machine.

[EvilElitest]

Well, if he bounced it off a wall, would that count? Or maybe if he used a catapult. True, he would be firing it, but it wouldn't be HIM attacking per se, it would be a machine.

But it would be him using the machine (where did he get a catapult?) the same way it would be him using a sword.

Also wouldn't it have to be a magic holy anti undead catapult?

Anyways, if Conan can shape shift in any way he will be good actually
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

Actually, EE mentioned we could bring Conan's friends. 'Kay, we bring Red Sonya/Red Sonja. Conan wins, period. He stalls the WK and takes the blows, and meanwhile, Sony/ja sneaks up from behind and wails on the WK, who will go down like Wall street during the 30's crack.

[warty goblin]

But it would be him using the machine (where did he get a catapult?) the same way it would be him using a sword.

Also wouldn't it have to be a magic holy anti undead catapult?

Anyways, if Conan can shape shift in any way he will be good actually
from
EE

All I can say is if we start handing out magic holy anti-undead catapults I need one. I'll fire a test shot into the middle of this dead little town, after which the zombified residents will bow down and worship me as a their new master. After that I'll abolish finals week and award myself A's in all of my classes for the next two years, which I will spend sunning myself on a beach somewhere else, living off of the profits from my undead run farms.

[EvilElitest]

All I can say is if we start handing out magic holy anti-undead catapults I need one. I'll fire a test shot into the middle of this dead little town, after which the zombified residents will bow down and worship me as a their new master. After that I'll abolish finals week and award myself A's in all of my classes for the next two years, which I will spend sunning myself on a beach somewhere else, living off of the profits from my undead run farms.

I'll send one right away


Actually, EE mentioned we could bring Conan's friends. 'Kay, we bring Red Sonya/Red Sonja. Conan wins, period. He stalls the WK and takes the blows, and meanwhile, Sony/ja sneaks up from behind and wails on the WK, who will go down like Wall street during the 30's crack.
Ok i have no idea who Red Sonja is, but i said Conan gets friends if the WK gets his other Nazgul and army.


here is what i want. Conan with all of his items, vs. the Wk with all of his men
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

Wait, if the WK gets all his men, Conan gets Aquilonia, en full. Which means having a HUGE army of 300's Spartans. And, since the WK has an unfair terrain advantage, let's switch this to Greyhawk, where no one has an unfair edge over the other.


So, the WK has the Nazgul, his orcs, and his aura of "Aiiiiiiiiee! Manly, you can't touch this! *Cue MC hammer*".

Conan has Aquilonia, his belt which grants partial immunity and IS CANON (Let's say the Black Breath will just slowly sap his strength, and he can injure but not kill the WK), and all his pals, many of which are females with more screentime than Eowyn, and thus bigger plot immunity.

Heh, Conan wins.

[Artemician]

For the sake of clarity, I'm going to summate what I've been trying to say so far.

There are multiple intepretations of Glorfindel's words, the Witch-King's boast and Eomer's later words about Eowyn's feat.

One of them is that the Witch King has an Androphobic Aura that prevents all males from killing him.

Another theory is that Glorfindel was Prophecizing the events of the future, he knew that the Witch King would not be slain by a man, and he was telling that to Earnur. The Witch King was fated to be slain by a woman, and hence him being killed by a man would be in direct contradiction with the prophecy.

A third theory was that Glorfindel was making a prediction, based off reasoning, that the Witch-King was too powerful to be slain by a Man, and that only an Elf could kill him. Whatever.

The thing is, there's no evidence for any of these interpretations. Any of them is as valid as the other. For you to claim that the first interpreation is 100% valid, when there isn't any evidence to suggest it, is completely wrong.

You've repeatedly asserted that no man ever hurt the Witch-King. But was this because of the Nazgul's innate regenerative powers, or because the Witch King was just too good with his weaponry, because noone of sufficient stature stood up to him, or because of some Unique Anti Man protection?

We don't know. There isn't any evidence to point any way. So stop trying to debate as if one intepretation is completely factual when there isn't any evidence for it at all.

[EvilElitest]

Wait, if the WK gets all his men, Conan gets Aquilonia, en full. Which means having a HUGE army of 300's Spartans. And, since the WK has an unfair terrain advantage, let's switch this to Greyhawk, where no one has an unfair edge over the other.


1) Make the battle take place on the fields of Britain, no advantage to anyone
2) Alright, so the WK has a few hundred thousand men, with trolls, orcs, uruks, cross breeds, Oliphaunts, siege machinery, and 8 nazgul


So, the WK has the Nazgul, his orcs, and his aura of "Aiiiiiiiiee! Manly, you can't touch this! *Cue MC hammer*".

Alright


Conan has Aquilonia, his belt which grants partial immunity and IS CANON (Let's say the Black Breath will just slowly sap his strength, and he can injure but not kill the WK), and all his pals, many of which are females with more screentime than Eowyn, and thus bigger plot immunity.
1) Could you quote exactly what hte belt does? Or paraphrase its specific powers?
2) No plot armor on ether side
3) Ok, women, i can see that working.


Now many items and people does Conan have? I'm more interested in this match



Heh, Conan wins.

Remains to be seen
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

+1 to Artemician. 'Cause if you do, I bring out all of Conan's Allies, who will waste through EVERYTHING but the Nazgul effortlessly, and then some girl will slay the WK.

EE: Okey. Britannia is a nice place to fight, no edges.

So, Conan has his whole country of people. Anybody knows of an estimate of how many there are? If we have none, I'll say he has 75k Aquilonian warriors, each of them armed to the teeth, plus dozens of siege engines (Including ballistae, which wil ravage the WK's army).

1) I believe this was explained earlier on. I believe it gives a blanket protection from sorcery, which would work on anything, from W40K psykers to D&D Batman wizards, including the witch king.
2) Plot armor is just a joke. What I mean, is characters that get more screentime tend to have their powers and skills better explained, which Conan and his buddies have plenty of.


As for the items, I'd say he gets his best sword and two replacements, the belt, and a few other of his magical trinkets from various stories, except those that were explicitly destroyed or rendered useless.

[EvilElitest]

For the sake of clarity, I'm going to summate what I've been trying to say so far.

There are multiple intepretations of Glorfindel's words, the Witch-King's boast and Eomer's later words about Eowyn's feat.

One of them is that the Witch King has an Androphobic Aura that prevents all males from killing him.

Another theory is that Glorfindel was Prophecizing the events of the future, he knew that the Witch King would not be slain by a man, and he was telling that to Earnur. The Witch King was fated to be slain by a woman, and hence him being killed by a man would be in direct contradiction with the prophecy.


Regardless of teh source, for what ever reason, the WK cannot be hurt by a living man however, that is clear from the book, a women was needed to hurt him. It might have been prophecy, or it might have been protection, point is living men can't hurt him


A third theory was that Glorfindel was making a prediction, based off reasoning, that the Witch-King was too powerful to be slain by a Man, and that only an Elf could kill him. Whatever.
don't think so, other wise why would Eowyn's gender and Merry's race make any difference

The thing is, there's no evidence for any of these interpretations. Any of them is as valid as the other. For you to claim that the first interpreation is 100% valid, when there isn't any evidence to suggest it, is completely wrong.

You've repeatedly asserted that no man ever hurt the Witch-King. But was this because of the Nazgul's innate regenerative powers, or because the Witch King was just too good with his weaponry, because noone of sufficient stature stood up to him, or because of some Unique Anti Man protection?

Because Eowyn's gender and Merry's race are why he is able to be hurt. They did make a different. And i think that was commented on in the house of healing



+1 to Artemician. 'Cause if you do, I bring out all of Conan's Allies, who will waste through EVERYTHING but the Nazgul effortlessly, and then some girl will slay the WK.

you seem very confident about these allies. What can they do and how many of them are there?


EE: Okey. Britannia is a nice place to fight, no edges.


So, Conan has his whole country of people. Anybody knows of an estimate of how many there are? If we have none, I'll say he has 75k Aquilonian warriors, each of them armed to the teeth, plus dozens of siege engines (Including ballistae, which wil ravage the WK's army).
75,000 men? You sure about that? Ok, what about his home land (Collamran or what ever it is called)


1) I believe this was explained earlier on. I believe it gives a blanket protection from sorcery, which would work on anything, from W40K psykers to D&D Batman wizards, including the witch king.
2) Plot armor is just a joke. What I mean, is characters that get more screentime tend to have their powers and skills better explained, which Conan and his buddies have plenty of.
1) Sign, that is the thread definition. I want the books definition directly
2) Alright


As for the items, I'd say he gets his best sword and two replacements, the belt, and a few other of his magical trinkets from various stories, except those that were explicitly destroyed or rendered useless.
Fair enough, what are they? Also he wouldn't get stuff that never belonged to him kay? So if he picked up a cool sword for one fight, but then lost it no deal right
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

Didn't RotK mention that the Barrow Blade stripped him of some of his protections? This could let us word the protection to something like this:

The WK may be hurt by no man. This means any Male Human, no matter the power they have. However, females and members of other races may attack him. They will still have to contend with his vast powers and protections.

Barrow Blades may remove both the androphobic protection and reduce the other protections, to the point that anyone of sufficient skill could kill the WK.

However, Conan has no Barrow Blades. His Belt, however, protects him up to a point from the Black Breath, and it also allows him to injure, BUT NOT KILL, the WK. Thus, Conan cannot finish the WK off, but any of his female allies can.

EE: I'm confident of his allies because they're minor heroes. Think Boromir, Faramir, or Imrahil. Not important in the core of the story, but still capable warriors, who could easily take fifty or so orcs down in a suicidal battle.

Also, Conan is a Cimmerian, but his tribe was annihilated. Later on, however, he became king of Aquilonia, a romanlike country.

I believe he also has a few buddies with magical prowess, but they're not D&D power. They're something like illusionists and diviners, I believe.

As for the items, I'm searching around for the trinkets. And yeah, a one-time thing doesn't count. As I said, if he lost it or it was rendered useless, it's not there for the purpose of the thread.

[EvilElitest]

Didn't RotK mention that the Barrow Blade stripped him of some of his protections? This could let us word the protection to something like this:

The WK may be hurt by no man. This means any Male Human, no matter the power they have. However, females and members of other races may attack him. They will still have to contend with his vast powers and protections.

Barrow Blades may remove both the androphobic protection and reduce the other protections, to the point that anyone of sufficient skill could kill the WK.

However, Conan has no Barrow Blades. His Belt, however, protects him up to a point from the Black Breath, and it also allows him to injure, BUT NOT KILL, the WK. Thus, Conan cannot finish the WK off, but any of his female allies can.
Here it is
The Wk cannot be hurt by any human male, or at least killed, (he can be light on fire) but not actually hurt
However any non man or human can hurt him. However they need some sort of anti undead holy weapon however

I still want the actual definition of the belt's power (what book does it come from again?) but i could see it making him immune to black Breath except at direct contact
from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

Alright, setting changed to Britannia, both sides at full power with soldiers and siege engines, minor heroes, and such.
Awesome. Would defineitly be awesome. My bet still would be on WK though.


So, Conan has his whole country of people. Anybody knows of an estimate of how many there are? If we have none, I'll say he has 75k Aquilonian warriors, each of them armed to the teeth, plus dozens of siege engines (Including ballistae, which wil ravage the WK's army). Don't presume the siege engines would work. During the battle of Minas Tirith, I'm sure the Nazgul swooped in and destroyed some of the catapults.
And point of order, the belt allows Conan to harm the WK, but it does not nullify it. Women would be just as useful as normal men. Did no one get that point I stated? Because I still see people using Conans love interests as a valid force to destroy the WK, when they cannot bypass his enchantment.
Another question, is there special with this sword I keep hearing? I believe the setting from the beginning did say a normal sword, and had no enchantments on it.

The only issue that would need to be resolved there would be the belt. EE has a point, the point of vs. threads are to see who would win under the conditions. But by no means does that allow people to tweak them to give one side a fighting chance they do not have with what they have in their universe originally with stuff they do have. We need to know the belts specific powers in the books, we just can't say it can harm the WK, since it is from a world of relatively weaker magic.
I for one don't like the versus settings Zenos gives, though the last one I was even in was Warhammer orcs versus LotRs and Warcraft orcs, so I haven't seen him start any recently, or join them.

For people who say that Conan can escape this situation... fleeing is considered a way to lose. In strategic cases, it copuld be used to help, but in this situation, it is either do or die. Running away for Conan means losing, as the point of a vs. thread is who can win, not who can escape. It there was such a thing, then it would be escape threads. Enough said on the matter.
Hmmm... escape threads... I think I can start a new thread on that.:smallcool:

[Hades]

Ok, so, enough of this I think business, let's get some actual quotage going on here. For the Witch King:

Glorfindel to Eärnur of Gondor: "Do not pursue him! He will not return to these lands. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."

The Witch King to Eowyn: "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!'
Note: while the first definition the OED gives for hinder is "To do harm to; to injure, impair, damage", it is obvious from the context and Eowyn's previous line that the meaning intended is rather "To keep back, delay, or stop in action; to put obstacles in the way of; to impede, deter, obstruct, prevent".

To my mind then, the first instance definitely implies fate or prophecy: that the Witch King will not be killed until the specific time and place in which he actually falls. In the second instance, the Witch King believes he faces a mere warrior of Rohan, and thus has no fear of Eowyn, as he should be able to defeat her easily. He believes that he surpasses all living men in Middle Earth at the time, and so has nothing to fear.

So. To sum up: Glorfindel foresees that the Witch King will not be slain until the Siege of Minas Tirith, and further that he will not be killed either by a male or by a human. The Witch King believes he cannot be stopped by any living man, which may mean he is aware of the prophecy, or may mean he believes himself to be the most badass warrior present, beyond the capabilities of a mere warrior of Rohan. Definately sounds more like a prophecy than some sort of enchantment or magic

[EvilElitest]

Alright, setting changed to Britannia, both sides at full power with soldiers and siege engines, minor heroes, and such.
Awesome. Would defineitly be awesome. My bet still would be on WK though.

Out gunned


Don't presume the siege engines would work. During the battle of Minas Tirith, I'm sure the Nazgul swooped in and destroyed some of the catapults.
And point of order, the belt allows Conan to harm the WK, but it does not nullify it. Women would be just as useful as normal men. Did no one get that point I stated? Because I still see people using Conans love interests as a valid force to destroy the WK, when they cannot bypass his enchantment.
Another question, is there special with this sword I keep hearing? I believe the setting from the beginning did say a normal sword, and had no enchantments on it.
1) Conan apparently has a Barrow sword, through how he got that is beyond me
2) I don't think the Nazgul attacked the catapults in the book because they didn't want to go into arrow range, but i'm sure they could if they felt they had to
3) Does Conan have his own magic swords?


The only issue that would need to be resolved there would be the belt. EE has a point, the point of vs. threads are to see who would win under the conditions. But by no means does that allow people to tweak them to give one side a fighting chance they do not have with what they have in their universe originally with stuff they do have. We need to know the belts specific powers in the books, we just can't say it can harm the WK, since it is from a world of relatively weaker magic.
I for one don't like the versus settings Zenos gives, though the last one I was even in was Warhammer orcs versus LotRs and Warcraft orcs, so I haven't seen him start any recently, or join them.
Exactly. If i wanted to see who was a better sword fighter, Drizzt or Conan but drizzt is armed with a machine gun to make things easier, then i'm not learning who is better, just who can nulify the other's advantages


For people who say that Conan can escape this situation... fleeing is considered a way to lose. In strategic cases, it copuld be used to help, but in this situation, it is either do or die. Running away for Conan means losing, as the point of a vs. thread is who can win, not who can escape. It there was such a thing, then it would be escape threads. Enough said on the matter.
Hmmm... escape threads... I think I can start a new thread on that.:smallcool:

Thank you

And if we do escape thread, then Frodo is an actual dangerous force.

Hades, while i like that you defined hinder, you were good up until here




To my mind then, the first instance definitely implies fate or prophecy: that the Witch King will not be killed until the specific time and place in which he actually falls. In the second instance, the Witch King believes he faces a mere warrior of Rohan, and thus has no fear of Eowyn, as he should be able to defeat her easily. He believes that he surpasses all living men in Middle Earth at the time, and so has nothing to fear.
When the Wk finds out that she is female, not male, the attacks all out, indicating he is aware of his own weaknesses
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

By Howard's words, there is a magical belt Conan had, which "offers protection from sorcery, and other kinds of vile magics". Guess that covers the Black Breath. I guess it could also affect, but not nullify, the Androphobic aura.

And nope, Conan doesn't have a Barrow sword. He's able to harm the WK because of the belt, but not kill him (Just to give the WK a small advantage). That's where friends like Red Sonja intervene.

PS: If anyone wants to know who the hell Red Sonja is, she's the girl that popularized the Chainmail Bikini. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sonja)

[EvilElitest]

By Howard's words, there is a magical belt Conan had, which "offers protection from sorcery, and other kinds of vile magics". Guess that covers the Black Breath. I guess it could also affect, but not nullify, the Androphobic aura.

That would protect Conan from the BB and fear/despair. That wouldn't nulify the WK's protections however.


And nope, Conan doesn't have a Barrow sword. He's able to harm the WK because of the belt, but not kill him (Just to give the WK a small advantage). That's where friends like Red Sonja intervene.

The belt offers protection, doesn't take away others protection. Does Conan have any magic swords



PS: If anyone wants to know who the hell Red Sonja is, she's the girl that popularized the Chainmail Bikini. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sonja)
Ok she is screwed if she is wearing that
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

Not so much. Chainmail bikini let's you apply CHA to AC and adds +6 CHA. :smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

Not so much. Chainmail bikini let's you apply CHA to AC and adds +6 CHA. :smalltongue:

the AC is a lie and we both know it

And the Chrisma won't help against WK
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

Hey, RAW doesn't say it doesn't apply. It must be a supernatural ability.

[EvilElitest]

Hey, RAW doesn't say it doesn't apply. It must be a supernatural ability.

The Chainmail Bikini has no possible use what so ever!!!!!!
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

They said the same of the Tavern Wench, until she landed a Dirty Strike with a 9X multiplier, and drained you of 6d8 levels with her beauty.

[EvilElitest]

They said the same of the Tavern Wench, until she landed a Dirty Strike with a 9X multiplier, and drained you of 6d8 levels with her beauty.


What, now your hurting my brain. Stop confusing me or i'll do something stupid i'll regret
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

And they complained of the unobtanium transparent catsuit, but it still was the best protection out there.

[EvilElitest]

And they complained of the unobtanium transparent catsuit, but it still was the best protection out there.

what, it doesn't make sense. Nothing is making sense anymore
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/549290/2/istockphoto_549290_purple_elephant_w_paths.jpg

Pity I couldn't get the scottish cartoony version.

[Hades]

Out gunned
When the Wk finds out that she is female, not male, the attacks all out, indicating he is aware of his own weaknesses


"...but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt. [...] but the Black Captain, in doubt and malice intent upon the woman before him..."

I took the liberty of finding the actual quotes that give us the only clues of the Witch Kings' awareness or not of his supposed weakness/vulnerability for you. When he finds out that he faces a woman, of the royal line of Rohan, rather than the simple Dernhelm the young warrior, he is silent, and filled with doubt.

I would submit that this might just be the unexpected shock of a woman on the battlefield. The Witch King does tend to get hit in the face with surprises a lot, things like Glorfindel showing up all the time, getting swept away by rivers, and so forth. I still find it very ambiguous, and have no clear idea whether or not the Witch King knows of Glorfindel's prediction.

Be that as it may, it's still a prophecy, a plot protection, not an actual physical or magical protection. The Witch King will not fall by the hand of man (whatever Glorfindel may mean by this), but this does not mean he is impervious to physical harm from men/males or humans, merely that he supposedly will not be killed by either or both of those two categories.

As to Red Sonja and the chainmail bikini, it really depends what version of Conan is being used, as she does not exist in the original R.E.H. stories. There are, however, numerous other warrior women in the stories that could take her place.

[EvilElitest]

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/549290/2/istockphoto_549290_purple_elephant_w_paths.jpg

Pity I couldn't get the scottish cartoony version.

why is this here? All logic is being abandoned. It is like Narato but intentionally crazy
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

"...but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt. [...] but the Black Captain, in doubt and malice intent upon the woman before him..."

I took the liberty of finding the actual quotes that give us the only clues of the Witch Kings' awareness or not of his supposed weakness/vulnerability for you. When he finds out that he faces a woman, of the royal line of Rohan, rather than the simple Dernhelm the young warrior, he is silent, and filled with doubt.

I would submit that this might just be the unexpected shock of a woman on the battlefield. The Witch King does tend to get hit in the face with surprises a lot, things like Glorfindel showing up all the time, getting swept away by rivers, and so forth. I still find it very ambiguous, and have no clear idea whether or not the Witch King knows of Glorfindel's prediction.

Be that as it may, it's still a prophecy, a plot protection, not an actual physical or magical protection. The Witch King will not fall by the hand of man (whatever Glorfindel may mean by this), but this does not mean he is impervious to physical harm from men/males or humans, merely that he supposedly will not be killed by either or both of those two categories.

As to Red Sonja and the chainmail bikini, it really depends what version of Conan is being used, as she does not exist in the original R.E.H. stories. There are, however, numerous other warrior women in the stories that could take her place.

There's still Red Sonya, who IS in the short stories, and who Red Sonja is loosely based on.

[EvilElitest]

"...but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt. [...] but the Black Captain, in doubt and malice intent upon the woman before him..."

I took the liberty of finding the actual quotes that give us the only clues of the Witch Kings' awareness or not of his supposed weakness/vulnerability for you. When he finds out that he faces a woman, of the royal line of Rohan, rather than the simple Dernhelm the young warrior, he is silent, and filled with doubt.

Check out the first two pages of the thread, WG brought these up and very nicely made some exampels


I would submit that this might just be the unexpected shock of a woman on the battlefield. The Witch King does tend to get hit in the face with surprises a lot, things like Glorfindel showing up all the time, getting swept away by rivers, and so forth. I still find it very ambiguous, and have no clear idea whether or not the Witch King knows of Glorfindel's prediction.
And then he attacks full out. Ergo, he realizes that she can hurt him and must stop here


Be that as it may, it's still a prophecy, a plot protection, not an actual physical or magical protection. The Witch King will not fall by the hand of man (whatever Glorfindel may mean by this), but this does not mean he is impervious to physical harm from men/males or humans, merely that he supposedly will not be killed by either or both of those two categories.

however Tolkien said in a letter i believe that the reason why Merry could harm him was because Merry wasn't a human



As to Red Sonja and the chainmail bikini, it really depends what version of Conan is being used, as she does not exist in the original R.E.H. stories. There are, however, numerous other warrior women in the stories that could take her place.
Fair enough
from
EE

[Hades]

Unfortunately, Red Sonya isn't from a Conan story, though she later gets adapted in by some of the pastiche writers and comic writers. There are other characters like Bêlit, or Valeria, however, that would work just fine.

As to the Witch King stuff, I've read the first two pages of the thread (and the rest of it that had anything to do with the actual discussion), and I disagree with WG when he concludes that it must be some sort of magical or physical protection that prevents the Witch King from being slain or even harmed, as neither the "prophecy" nor his actions imply that he is invincible. If he were invincible, why would he wear a hauberk under his robes? Aesthetic reasons, perhaps? :smallbiggrin:

I don't read the Witch King attacking "full out" as you say, and not because he realizes that she can hurt him. If he did realize she could hurt him, why would he have his Fell Beast attack her instead of flying away? He has a long history of fleeing when outmatched. Instead, I read his anger as a reaction to the loss of the Fell Beast, a personal gift from his master, and also about hesitation when Eowyn reveals herself. In any case, I don't think it is possible to say for certain why he attacks her, as we don't have a direct line into his head: all we can do is guess.

I thought Merry could harm him because of the Barrow blade? But yes, depending on the interpretation of the line, as I had tried to point out before, it could be either a non-human (though Tolkien does indicate that Hobbits are a branch or variety of human, rather than a completely different race) or a non-male who eventually will fell the Witch King.

I really need to get a copy of the Letters, they have been on my list for some time.

[Azerian Kelimon]

The Barrow Blade, as I outlined in my prophecy, is a special case, and it was used by a midget. So it skirted every protection, AND removed them up to a point when it hit.

See, THAT is the power of MIDGET SHANK!

[Dervag]

Actually, EE mentioned we could bring Conan's friends. 'Kay, we bring Red Sonya/Red Sonja. Conan wins, period. He stalls the WK and takes the blows, and meanwhile, Sony/ja sneaks up from behind and wails on the WK, who will go down like Wall street during the 30's crack.Or we could use Belit. Or Valeria.


"No living man shall hinder me"
So Aragorn and Canon can't hurt him anyways. It didn't say "No living man except for the really badass ones can hinder me"EE, has it occured to you that that could be a BOAST? That the Witch King is not attempting to give absolutely precise information? That perhaps he does in fact mean "I am so tough no man can conceivably stop me" and not "No one can stop me unless I get stabbed in the leg by a midget and then stabbed in the face by a princess?"

That second claim would be oddly specific. Certainly, if I knew I was fated to die at the hands of a midget and a princess I would try to avoid coming anywhere midgets or princesses. Whereas the Witch King strode forth to battle bravely, obviously not worried about the possibility that anyone, let alone a midget or a princess, would be able to kill him.

We do not know if the Witch King was telling the factual truth when he said "No man may hinder me." Perhaps he was lying. Perhaps he was fooled by his own power into overestimating his own strength. Perhaps a mighty warrior like Aragorn could have hindered him. Perhaps when he said "living" he meant to exclude legendary men who had lived in the past, like Hurin, who could have hindered him. All we know is that he believed no living man could hinder him.


"Far off is his doom, and not by the hand of man shall he fall"
In this context, and in the context of the fight he means that be hurt by any living man. Remember, when he said hinder, he was taking about how Eowyn was trying to stand in his way Yeah, and he was thinking "I will finish off this royal bodyguard very quickly because I'm so strong and tough. He's not going to stand in my way for long!"


1) No, because regardless of cause, there is some sort of protection, as Glorfindal showedGlorfindel showed no such thing. All he did was say (correctly) that no man was going to kill the Witch King. Perhaps an avalanche, or a bear, or a woman, or the King of the Eagles was going to kill the Witch King. None of those things are men, after all. Glorfindel's prophecy proves nothing, except that Glorfindel is good at making predictions.


2) Also, he gets more afraid when he finds out Eowyn is a women. When he things she is a man he is just sitting their laughing. When he finds out that she is a women he attacks all out. Then get midget shankedOK, this suggests that he was in fact worried about the fact he was facing a woman. However, that doesn't mean he was thinking "only women have the power to pierce my man-proof shield." It could equally well mean "I have done all kinds of divinations and learned that I will not be killed by a man. Fighting men is, therefore, not a threat to me. But this is not a man. This might kill me."

It doesn't mean he has a man-proof shield. Moreover, it is a prophecy. Prophecy is a form of plot armor- it works in-universe but cannot be relied on to save you in an out-of-setting scenario. I can explain why I think this must be true if you like.


1) um, i speak English, what are you talking aboutLet me put it this way.

I do not know what language you read the Lord of the Rings in originally. It might have been French or Italian or Chinese or Esperanto or anything. I was under the impression that you live in a part of the world where English is likely not your first language.

Therefore, your interpretation of passages in Lord of the Rings might conceivably have been the victim of a translation error.

Imagine a man who first read the books in French, and then read them in English. Imagine that the French version claims that no man may kill the Witch King in such a way as to imply that the Witch King has a man-proof force field or something, but that the English version does not. Or that the English version allows that interpretation while not requiring it (which is true). The man who first read the book in French might think that it is obvious and must be true that the Witch King has a man-proof shield, while people who first read it in English disagree. Or if he read the book in English, he might be genuinely mistaken about the meaning of an English word such as "hinder" even though he does in fact speak English. Even English speakers frequently make such mistakes about their own language, after all.

For all I knew, you were that man.


2) Your calling me a liar? At least do you research. Link vs. Seph, Sauron vs. Voldemort, Sauron vs. LK, match to make my sister cry, Uruk-hai vs. Romans, ect, all work under the assumption that never side is aware of the other prior to there meatingIs this a general rule in the abstract sense? Is it automatically true that the two sides stumble across each other.

Normally, a vs. thread will specify how much the competitors know about each other in such a way as to leave no doubt. Here, we know that someone must have given Conan that belt. Who? Did they give him any information? Does he get any opportunity to observe the Witch King in action, or to gather intelligence on him? It isn't clear. There is doubt about how much Conan knows about the Witch King and vice versa.


3) I expected better from you. You make the claim of being an understanding person and pull this off. Bad formNo, this is a serious complaint.

You have a mental list of "rules" that other people are supposed to follow in their debates. However, some of those rules do not appear to be universal. Many people simply do not believe them. It is certainly not obvious that those are in fact universal rules.

Then you speak as if you expect everyone to follow these rules. As far as I or anyone else can tell, you have simply made those rules up, and you will dig in and protest for page after page if other people do not follow those rules. I do not understand why you do this, rather than simply explaining the %&*(# reasoning that led to you say "X is a rule."

In this case, the "rule" is that "the Witch King is physically immune to being harmed by a man." You adhere to this despite the fact that there is considerable doubt over what the two statements in the book about the Witch King's invincibility mean. And despite the fact that the original poster specified that the man Conan had been equipped with a magical item that allowed him to harm the Witch King. And it is extremely hard to see why. As far as I can tell, you've just picked a point based on a shaky chain of reasoning and decided that it must be an absolute truth handed down from the heavens. Nothing any person can say will even lead you to shift the angle from which you argue that this point is an absolute truth.


A belt that is of debatable cannon. Some people say it isn't cannon, some people say it is but with different powers. can we have a definite reveal on thatI wish we could, but it is after all defined as having the power to allow Conan to harm the Witch King. Perhaps we should take that at face value?


2) Alright Sauron isn't a complete moron. Why would he give him only 2,000?Perhaps because the Witch King is moving from one place to another with only a small bodyguard of troops rather than an entire massive army that takes weeks or months to reach its destination? That's a perfectly good reason for him to be passing through Osgiliath with only 2000 orcs, isn't it?


If Conan has a belt in his stories that can grant him magical power, fine. By all means. But we need to know what that belt can doIn a variety of stories Conan acquires a variety of magical items to let him harm specific opponents. It is very common for this to happen to him. IN this case, we know one thing that the belt can definitely do- allow him to harm the Witch King. It is obvious why the original poster wanted this- he did not want the debate to get bogged down in an endless argument about how "Conan is a man and therefore cannot harm the Witch King."

Wouldn't it be vastly more interesting to talk about how good Conan and the Witch King are as tacticians and warriors, how good orcs and Aquilonians are as soldiers, and so on? What's the point of obsessing about this one thing when the original poster was very specific and careful about giving us an excellent reason not to obsess over it?


no i want him to have his own cannon equipment. I am under the impression he has an army (or more than one) in his own books. I am also under the impression that he has his own magical items he can use.Conan's equipment varies from story to story. Unlike, say, Batman, he does not have a utility belt of items that are always with him. He may be alone, carrying a sword, a shield, and a suit of chain mail at the beginning of one story. Then he starts the next story as a shipwrecked castaway, with no weapons and wearing nothing but a loincloth. Then in the next story he's riding at the head of a band of nomadic horse archers, wearing no armor but carrying a powerful bow.

So Conan's "canon equipment" is really "whatever he happens to have on him at the moment." Normally, by choice, he will carry a sword, a shield, and some form of light to medium body armor (mail if he can get it). But he is quite happy to fight with a bow, an axe, or whatever comes to hand. And he often rounds out his inventory with specific items found during his adventures. For instance, during the story "The Devil In Iron," he comes across an ancient ruined city and awakens the invulnerable humanoid deity of that city. He tries to kill it with his sword but fails to make even so much as a scratch against the deity's invulnerable flesh. So he backpedals, searches, and eventually stumbles across the magic dagger that can harm the deity. And uses it.

He doesn't have that magic dagger in his next story. It is reasonable to assume that he sold it or (possibly) lost it, because he does that a lot. Conan isn't big on accumulating material possessions over his life. He usually sells the loot from his adventures, then spends the money on beer and hookers and stuff like that.

One thing I can say, he does not carry cannon equipment. This was before cannons. :smallwink:


ok, in his story what does the belt do exactly?Well, it's defined as "allowing him to harm the Witch King." So even if it doesn't do anything else at all, maybe we can start there.


2) Just because somebody has done something many times doesn't mean they can every timeYou are absolutely right, and no mistake. But the fact that he's done it before indicates that he could probably do it again. If the Witch-King doesn't kill him and if he doesn't get surrounded by, say, two dozen orcs, he'll probably get away. Conan's a survivor. Since he has a route of escape available, and since the surrounding countryside is presumably neutral, he's in a very familiar situation trying to escape.


1) Having a big army doesn't mean your a moron. He used his big army in a very rational manner. Also he made sure that he didn't over extend himself, remember that he had a far larger army back home in case anything bad happened You're absolutely right again, and no mistake. But what I'm getting at is that while Sauron and/or the Witch King fought competently, they did not show any strokes of genius either.


Are you kidding me, both sides are totally nerfed in this. I'm sure Conan has many many magical items that he isn't being given in this situation. If you looked through his cannon books, i'm sure you could find a whole multitude of stuff he could useYeah, but he never carries any of them for more than one story. See above.

[Steven the Lich]

Point of order on Red Sonja... she is not a creation of Howards stories. In fact, when she was created, Howards library tried lawsuit claiming Sonja, based on the sword and pistol wielding Red Sonya (who was not even in the Conan series either. Shes from the renaissance). Sonja is also another victim of the modern age, depicting woman in impractical clothing and armor. Besides distracting their enemies... what is the use of scantily clad women? Seriously, it is beyond me.
But there still are other female love interests, so take your pick. They still won't be able to do anything, unfortunately, due to the fact they cannot penetrate WKs protections. Remember... no belt... no holy anti-undead sword or powerful sword in general... I don't know Conans love interests though, so I could be wrong.


The Barrow Blade, as I outlined in my prophecy, is a special case, and it was used by a midget. So it skirted every protection, AND removed them up to a point when it hit.

See, THAT is the power of MIDGET SHANK! Yep... don't mess with the hobbits. Even Napoleon was a ambitious one. Conquered all of Europe, he did.
EDIT: Dervag... Few things to say.

EE, has it occured to you that that could be a BOAST? That the Witch King is not attempting to give absolutely precise information? That perhaps he does in fact mean "I am so tough no man can conceivably stop me" and not "No one can stop me unless I get stabbed in the leg by a midget and then stabbed in the face by a princess?" It could very well be a boast, but Glorfindel did set up a prophecy which came true.


Is this a general rule in the abstract sense? Is it automatically true that the two sides stumble across each other.
Actually, I think we pretty much just toss them into the fray alone with no one else to brief them on stuff.


Normally, a vs. thread will specify how much the competitors know about each other in such a way as to leave no doubt. Here, we know that someone must have given Conan that belt. Who? Did they give him any information? Does he get any opportunity to observe the Witch King in action, or to gather intelligence on him? It isn't clear. There is doubt about how much Conan knows about the Witch King and vice versa. So you presume someone gives him a belt, and that guy could have told Conan about the WK (though for the guy to have this belt, he would have to be from Conans world clearly, and would naturally have no knowledge of the WK either), and that we have no idea how much he told him... you know what, that basically helped your side a lot... wait, I made an error in speech... It didn't help you at all!

I wish we could, but it is after all defined as having the power to allow Conan to harm the Witch King. Perhaps we should take that at face value? People aren't going to entirely buy it unless we get some cold hard evidence on it. We got words from Howard that it protects Conan from foul sorcery, so that could debatably outmatch BB (Though I think if Conan touchs the WK with a sword or bare fists, he will be affected by it) and fear, but it is not said to be able to harm the WK. Howard, to the best of my knowledge, did not say it nullified protection, only gave it.

[WalkingTarget]

however Tolkien said in a letter i believe that the reason why Merry could harm him was because Merry wasn't a human

There is no such mention in the published Letters. Merry is rarely mentioned at all in them, and usually while paired with Pippen, but never in reference to his role in taking out the WK.

There isn't any helpful information for this discussion there (beyond the "no great power over the fearless" line about the Nazgul, which Conan probably qualifies for). Eowyn's entries are unrelated or just mention that she slew him (simple statement of that fact, nothing more). Glorfindel's entries don't mention the WK. Even the Nazgul entries (or the WK specifically) don't mention specifics on what sort of "protections" they may have. There aren't any further details into the Eowyn/WK fight.

One interesting note is that when Tolkien wrote about the hypothetical situation where Frodo wasn't ambushed by Gollum after claiming the Ring, he only ever mentions the Eight, specifically noting that the WK is Dead For Real at that point.

@Hades - I highly recommend picking up the Letters if you can find a copy if you're interested in this stuff. It's the closest thing we have to a Q&A session with the man and I learned a lot of neat stuff from them.

[warty goblin]

The Barrow Blade, as I outlined in my prophecy, is a special case, and it was used by a midget. So it skirted every protection, AND removed them up to a point when it hit.

See, THAT is the power of MIDGET SHANK!

Quite true. As an Evil Overlord, the armed and hostile midget room-check is a primary part of my day's security routine. Just the other day I caught one of the wooly-footed vermin lurking under my bed brandishing some sort of primitive weapon positively bursting with edritch power. After a brief tussle during which he killed 34 minions and seriously damaged one of my potted begonias I disarmed him (well, actually he lost his weapon somewhere inside Squerk, or Minion #23-65-3439, the surgeons are still trying to find it), then drop-kicked him out of the window where he was promptly devoured by my undead servents. Now I have a midget skeleton servent (with wooly feet no less) and all of the other overlords are seriously jealous. I'm thinking of blinging him out a bit now, nothing too extravagent, just some glowing fierly rubies in the eye-sockets and maybe an ancient Egyptian reliquery in the chest cavity, covered with an attractive floral print of course.

Dark Emo Girl says that's too much, but I'm fairly sure she's conspiring with my enemies, I mean we've known each other for long enough now for it to be a likely twist, and there was that time when the heroes spared her life...I'll have to get Blarguz to look into that...

But seriously, as Dark Lords we need to do something about this plague of small heroes, whether they be children or runty tunnell dwelling rats with wooly feet. Seen Voldemort around the block recently? How 'bout Sauron? Witch King? Thus I propose as a future security measure we loot, pillage and burn the Shire and everything within a six hundred mile radius just to be sure, before have henchlings start carrying out the killing of any young people with plot significance, or whose parents share a last name with the title of the media in which we appear just to be on the safe side. Keep the plans simple though, no rituals timed to planetary alignments or summoning elder horrors, those get turned aside by Love and Puppies, or somebody was looking through the telescope backwards again or the book of ancient prophesy was missing a page or something. No, I'm thinking more on the lines of tactical nuclear weapons where available, and a simple pillage and burn routine based on the solid principle that people set afire by dragons seldom manage to procreate annoying Chosen Ones.

World Evil Dark Lord Association- Because together, we can make the world a worse place.

[Hades]

I submit, Steven the Lich, that Conan's love interests would in fact be able to do stuff, as they are, after all, female, just like Eowyn, and (some of them) are quite adept warriors themselves. Valeria, for instance, is supposed to be even faster and more agile than Conan.

@WalkingTarget, yeah, I've been meaning to get a copy forever, but whenever I go anyplace and remember, they never have any. Curses.

[Steven the Lich]

I submit, Steven the Lich, that Conan's love interests would in fact be able to do stuff, as they are, after all, female, just like Eowyn, and (some of them) are quite adept warriors themselves. Valeria, for instance, is supposed to be even faster and more agile than Conan.

@WalkingTarget, yeah, I've been meaning to get a copy forever, but whenever I go anyplace and remember, they never have any. Curses.
... Let me put this in bold format.
WK has a protection against mortal weapons, only anti-undead weapons or powerful weapons in general can bypass it. Read my posts to a better understanding, because while I don't doubt their power, their ability to harm the WK is in question. :smallsigh:
I had to repeat this like... three times now.

[Hades]

... Let me put this in bold format.
WK has a protection against mortal weapons, only anti-undead weapons or powerful weapons in general can bypass it.

So Dernhelm/Eowyn has an anti-undead or powerful weapon when she stabs him in the face and kills him? Why do I not seem to recall any mention ever being made of this? She has a regular sword which breaks in the process of killing him, nothing special about it. Why then do the others have to have something different?


Read my posts to a better understanding, because while I don't doubt their power, their ability to harm the WK is in question. :smallsigh:
I had to repeat this like... three times now.

Perhaps you've had to repeat it like...three times now because you need to remind the rest of us of something that doesn't actually exist in the books?

[WalkingTarget]

... Let me put this in bold format.
WK has a protection against mortal weapons, only anti-undead weapons or powerful weapons in general can bypass it. Read my posts to a better understanding, because while I don't doubt their power, their ability to harm the WK is in question. :smallsigh:
I had to repeat this like... three times now.

Well, all weapons perish when they strike him. The Barrow Blade is just specified as being the best possible weapon to hit him with. Even after he's stabbed by Merry, Eowyn's sword is shattered with her blow, so that aspect of the WK's character doesn't go away along with whatever spell Merry removes.

The unfortunate bit here is that we don't know how effective a "normal" weapon would be because, frankly, we have no additional instances of anybody actually striking him at all.

I agree, personally, that there is likely to be some sort of protection going on that Merry breaks. However, that's my opinion. One could have the opinion that the "spell" was simply the WK's ability to not be Killed Off For Real (if one is in the camp that thinks that the Nazgul are killable but can "respawn" back in Mordor) but is otherwise vulnerable. This thread is getting bogged down by details that are undecidable, which is unfortunate.

[EvilElitest]

As to the Witch King stuff, I've read the first two pages of the thread (and the rest of it that had anything to do with the actual discussion), and I disagree with WG when he concludes that it must be some sort of magical or physical protection that prevents the Witch King from being slain or even harmed, as neither the "prophecy" nor his actions imply that he is invincible. If he were invincible, why would he wear a hauberk under his robes? Aesthetic reasons, perhaps? :smallbiggrin:

Considering that he is a king of lore, i would imagine that wearing a Hauberk would work nicely. Also he doesn't like Elves, who aren't men. He ran away from Glorfindal


I don't read the Witch King attacking "full out" as you say, and not because he realizes that she can hurt him. If he did realize she could hurt him, why would he have his Fell Beast attack her instead of flying away? He has a long history of fleeing when outmatched. Instead, I read his anger as a reaction to the loss of the Fell Beast, a personal gift from his master, and also about hesitation when Eowyn reveals herself. In any case, I don't think it is possible to say for certain why he attacks her, as we don't have a direct line into his head: all we can do is guess.
That was covered already

1) Just because you can get hurt doesn't mean you will. he won the fight before getting midget shanked
2) Also running away from a girl? Yeah, great moral boast
3) Also, the Fel beast died after she turned out to be a girl and he attacked

Yes and no, the difference being that I'm fairly sure that the Witch King knew about the vulnerability of his magical protections. Note his reaction right after Eowyn reveals herself to be a woman:
"The winged creature screamed at her, but the Ringwraith made no answer, and was silent, as if in sudden doubt." (page 823 of my combined edition, it's near the beginning of The Battle of Pelennor Fields)

Arrogance would be completely ignoring the possibility of being able to be killed by a woman, which, given his reaction, was obviously a consideration he had made. I mean, if he is Mr. Arrogant, he's not going to go hesitating before recklessly attacking, secure in the (false) knowledge that no human, regardless of sex, can possibly harm him.

Now he does keep fighting, but only because he can be killed by a woman, not because he will be. To go back to my tank metaphor, this is like not retreating from a couple dudes with RPGs, even though they can damage the tank, they might miss, or they might be killed before they can fire them, and so on.

Hence I stand by my earlier conclusion, that no dude with a sword, regardless of how good he is with it, can defeat the Witch King. Hell, Aragorn can't do it, and neither can Gandalf on his own- and Gandalf would (technically) be able to circumvent the Witch King's protections since he's not human. Even if the sword-dude hits him, that's still a win for our gender confused undead, because sword-dude is out a weapon, more or less incapacitated and will be dead within three days.
1) Just because she can hurt you, doesn't mean she will.

I thought Merry could harm him because of the Barrow blade? But yes, depending on the interpretation of the line, as I had tried to point out before, it could be either a non-human (though Tolkien does indicate that Hobbits are a branch or variety of human, rather than a completely different race) or a non-male who eventually will fell the Witch King.


1) No, it was because he he had the sword and the blade.
2) From LoTR wik


he had fallen not by "the hand of man", but by those of a woman and a hobbit. (Tolkien elsewhere says Hobbits are in fact a "variety"[7] or separate "branch"[8] of humans, though they consider themselves a separate race.) It is worth noting that the Witch-king interprets Glorfindel's words to mean he cannot be killed (and "hindered"), but Glorfindel actually says he will die, just not by "the hand of man".


EE, has it occured to you that that could be a BOAST? That the Witch King is not attempting to give absolutely precise information? That perhaps he does in fact mean "I am so tough no man can conceivably stop me" and not "No one can stop me unless I get stabbed in the leg by a midget and then stabbed in the face by a princess?"
Then why was he afraid when she turned out to be a girl? If it was a boast you'd expect him to mock the fact he is a girl. Instead he shuts up and attacks directly, as if upset by her big reveal


That second claim would be oddly specific. Certainly, if I knew I was fated to die at the hands of a midget and a princess I would try to avoid coming anywhere midgets or princesses. Whereas the Witch King strode forth to battle bravely, obviously not worried about the possibility that anyone, let alone a midget or a princess, would be able to kill him.
If it is a prophecy, then yes
If it is a protection, then that just means that human men can't hurt him. Remember, he ran away from Glorfindal when threatened, because elves can hurt him. However, he didn't think that women or midgets would be there. And now he wanted to eliminate the threat


Yeah, and he was thinking "I will finish off this royal bodyguard very quickly because I'm so strong and tough. He's not going to stand in my way for long!"

Then why does he care about her being a girl. When he thinks she is a man, he doesn't give a damn. However when she reveals that , gasp, she is a female, he shuts up an attacks full out.


Glorfindel showed no such thing. All he did was say (correctly) that no man was going to kill the Witch King. Perhaps an avalanche, or a bear, or a woman, or the King of the Eagles was going to kill the Witch King. None of those things are men, after all. Glorfindel's prophecy proves nothing, except that Glorfindel is good at making predictions.
What? How did Glorfindal know that no man could hurt him. THat indicates prophecy or protection. If the former, then he is awesome like that, if the latter then it is like noting that ghosts can't be hurt by non magical weapons


It doesn't mean he has a man-proof shield. Moreover, it is a prophecy. Prophecy is a form of plot armor- it works in-universe but cannot be relied on to save you in an out-of-setting scenario. I can explain why I think this must be true if you like
Why wouldn't it be a shield? Minis Tirith, Eowyn or the date aren't mentioned, just that a living man can't hurt him


Let me put it this way.

I do not know what language you read the Lord of the Rings in originally. It might have been French or Italian or Chinese or Esperanto or anything. I was under the impression that you live in a part of the world where English is likely not your first language.

Therefore, your interpretation of passages in Lord of the Rings might conceivably have been the victim of a translation error.

Imagine a man who first read the books in French, and then read them in English. Imagine that the French version claims that no man may kill the Witch King in such a way as to imply that the Witch King has a man-proof force field or something, but that the English version does not. Or that the English version allows that interpretation while not requiring it (which is true). The man who first read the book in French might think that it is obvious and must be true that the Witch King has a man-proof shield, while people who first read it in English disagree. Or if he read the book in English, he might be genuinely mistaken about the meaning of an English word such as "hinder" even though he does in fact speak English. Even English speakers frequently make such mistakes about their own language, after all.

For all I knew, you were that man.
No it is weird, because of all of the ME vs,. threads i've used my books on i'm surprised i'm being asked that

Also the word hinder was defined above



Is this a general rule in the abstract sense? Is it automatically true that the two sides stumble across each other.

Normally, a vs. thread will specify how much the competitors know about each other in such a way as to leave no doubt. Here, we know that someone must have given Conan that belt. Who? Did they give him any information? Does he get any opportunity to observe the Witch King in action, or to gather intelligence on him? It isn't clear. There is doubt about how much Conan knows about the Witch King and vice versa.

1) Vs. threads are closed Circuits. So yes, unless said otherwise
2) But we can't make that assumption. Unless stated directly, we must assume that these guys only know what they know from their own worlds.



No, this is a serious complaint.

You have a mental list of "rules" that other people are supposed to follow in their debates. However, some of those rules do not appear to be universal. Many people simply do not believe them. It is certainly not obvious that those are in fact universal rules.

No i'm aware what vs. threads stand for. Characters randomly knowing stuff that the couldn't possible know ruins the point of a vs. thread



Then you speak as if you expect everyone to follow these rules. As far as I or anyone else can tell, you have simply made those rules up, and you will dig in and protest for page after page if other people do not follow those rules. I do not understand why you do this, rather than simply explaining the %&*(# reasoning that led to you say "X is a rule."

I'm actually aware of what hte point of vs. threads are actually. That it is a match to see which two characters are stronger. Thus logically, we want to see how they would fight eachother with their actual powers.



In this case, the "rule" is that "the Witch King is physically immune to being harmed by a man." You adhere to this despite the fact that there is considerable doubt over what the two statements in the book about the Witch King's invincibility mean. And despite the fact that the original poster specified that the man Conan had been equipped with a magical item that allowed him to harm the Witch King. And it is extremely hard to see why. As far as I can tell, you've just picked a point based on a shaky chain of reasoning and decided that it must be an absolute truth handed down from the heavens.
1) Actually, that is a subject of valid interpretation. The WK has some sort of protection against males, from ether prophecy or protection
2) Because of the importance of cannon


Nothing any person can say will even lead you to shift the angle from which you argue that this point is an absolute truth.

Oh please, not this dead horse. Standing for your point in the face of criticism doesn't mean i'm irrational. Considering i'm the one calling for cannon interpretations, your statement looks rather absurd



I wish we could, but it is after all defined as having the power to allow Conan to harm the Witch King. Perhaps we should take that at face value?
No. Because we are giving the characters un cannon powers and then the vs. thread point goes away. As i said, WK with a rocket launcher


Perhaps because the Witch King is moving from one place to another with only a small bodyguard of troops rather than an entire massive army that takes weeks or months to reach its destination? That's a perfectly good reason for him to be passing through Osgiliath with only 2000 orcs, isn't it?

1) Into hostile territory? Right....
2) can he call in more nazgul support?



In a variety of stories Conan acquires a variety of magical items to let him harm specific opponents. It is very common for this to happen to him. IN this case, we know one thing that the belt can definitely do- allow him to harm the Witch King. It is obvious why the original poster wanted this- he did not want the debate to get bogged down in an endless argument about how "Conan is a man and therefore cannot harm the Witch King."
1) Conan is a book character. This is a vs. thread. A fight should be to decide who is better using their own powers, not ones given to them
2) That's like making a vs. thread with frodo vs. drizzt but giving Frodo a machine gun. Just to even the odds


Wouldn't it be vastly more interesting to talk about how good Conan and the Witch King are as tacticians and warriors, how good orcs and Aquilonians are as soldiers, and so on? What's the point of obsessing about this one thing when the original poster was very specific and careful about giving us an excellent reason not to obsess over it
why no go back to the original vs. thread concept and have each side use all of their magic and abilities to the max. Then we have the real purpose without then uncannon equalizers



Conan's equipment varies from story to story. Unlike, say, Batman, he does not have a utility belt of items that are always with him. He may be alone, carrying a sword, a shield, and a suit of chain mail at the beginning of one story. Then he starts the next story as a shipwrecked castaway, with no weapons and wearing nothing but a loincloth. Then in the next story he's riding at the head of a band of nomadic horse archers, wearing no armor but carrying a powerful bow.

So Conan's "canon equipment" is really "whatever he happens to have on him at the moment." Normally, by choice, he will carry a sword, a shield, and some form of light to medium body armor (mail if he can get it). But he is quite happy to fight with a bow, an axe, or whatever comes to hand. And he often rounds out his inventory with specific items found during his adventures. For instance, during the story "The Devil In Iron," he comes across an ancient ruined city and awakens the invulnerable humanoid deity of that city. He tries to kill it with his sword but fails to make even so much as a scratch against the deity's invulnerable flesh. So he backpedals, searches, and eventually stumbles across the magic dagger that can harm the deity. And uses it.

He doesn't have that magic dagger in his next story. It is reasonable to assume that he sold it or (possibly) lost it, because he does that a lot. Conan isn't big on accumulating material possessions over his life. He usually sells the loot from his adventures, then spends the money on beer and hookers and stuff like that.
Could you just add up all the items he has ever had in the cannon Conan stories (comic book and books) and just deck him out. that is how vs. threads normally work



One thing I can say, he does not carry cannon equipment. This was before cannons.

Meh, i'll give you that one


Well, it's defined as "allowing him to harm the Witch King." So even if it doesn't do anything else at all, maybe we can start there.
In the original story.


You are absolutely right, and no mistake. But the fact that he's done it before indicates that he could probably do it again. If the Witch-King doesn't kill him and if he doesn't get surrounded by, say, two dozen orcs, he'll probably get away. Conan's a survivor. Since he has a route of escape available, and since the surrounding countryside is presumably neutral, he's in a very familiar situation trying to escape., alright, if he can survive this

You're absolutely right again, and no mistake. But what I'm getting at is that while Sauron and/or the Witch King fought competently, they did not show any strokes of genius either.

The battle plan was about as well thought out as D-Day, seems genius to me. Not Genre savvy maybe but that is another story



Yep... don't mess with the hobbits. Even Napoleon was a ambitious one. Conquered all of Europe, he did.
Damn right. And i, i mean he returned

And ok, you are officially badass when you

1) Crown yourself Emperor of Europe after snatching the crown from the Pope (who cares that they planned it before)
2) Walked in front of a hostile army, opened your waist coat and said "Anyone who would shoot his Emperor, do so now" and they switched sides
3) And dominated Europe, without being anyone of importance prior to the revolution

WG, its too late, They have left the shire and conqured Europe. What, you thought Napoleon was just short?


So Dernhelm/Eowyn has an anti-undead or powerful weapon when she stabs him in the face and kills him? Why do I not seem to recall any mention ever being made of this? She has a regular sword which breaks in the process of killing him, nothing special about it. Why then do the others have to have something different?

No merry did. After being stabbed with it, the WK's spell was broken and then he got stabed in the face


The unfortunate bit here is that we don't know how effective a "normal" weapon would be because, frankly, we have no additional instances of anybody actually striking him at all.

Aragon mentioned something about that on Weathtop

Steven i support you but calm down dude

from
EE

[Steven the Lich]

So Dernhelm/Eowyn has an anti-undead or powerful weapon when she stabs him in the face and kills him? Why do I not seem to recall any mention ever being made of this? She has a regular sword which breaks in the process of killing him, nothing special about it. Why then do the others have to have something different?



Perhaps you've had to repeat it like...three times now because you need to remind the rest of us of something that doesn't actually exist in the books?
No, she has a normal weapon. Merry already used a barrow blade to dispell the WKs protection, and Eowyn took a shot for the head while the WK was in sudden pain and was stunned.
Yeah... keep thinking that, genius. You have figured me out. :smallannoyed:

[EvilElitest]

No, she has a normal weapon. Merry already used a barrow blade to dispell the WKs protection, and Eowyn took a shot for the head while the WK was in sudden pain and was stunned.
Yeah... keep thinking that, genius. You have figured me out. :smallannoyed:

Dude calm down. Your right but calm down, he missed a point. Admittedly he missed it like 5 times, but keep calm
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

Aragon mentioned something about that on Weathtop


He said "...but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King," which, if taken literally, means that blades are capable of piercing the WK, not exactly an airtight argument for invincibility. Note that Merry's Barrow Blade is destroyed when it breaks whatever spell is there, but Eowyn's sword breaks too after that. Whatever nifty mojo Merry does is separate from the effect that Strider brings up on Weathertop.

[Mr. Scaly]

This one is still going on? Huh.

[EvilElitest]

He said "...but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King," which, if taken literally, means that blades are capable of piercing the WK, not exactly an airtight argument for invincibility. Note that Merry's Barrow Blade is destroyed when it breaks whatever spell is there, but Eowyn's sword breaks too after that. Whatever nifty mojo Merry does is separate from the effect that Strider brings up on Weathertop.

well we have the No other blade line of course

Mr. Scaly, even my flirting with Callos could stop this thread
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

well we have the No other blade line of course

Which is that no other blade would have been as good, not that no other blade would do anything. Again, this proves nothing (and leaves us with multiple valid interpretations which individuals will pick as they see fit).

[EvilElitest]

Which is that no other blade would have been as good, not that no other blade would do anything. Again, this proves nothing (and leaves us with multiple valid interpretations which individuals will pick as they see fit).

no i'm talking about breaking the spell on him, which allowed Eowyn to hurt him
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

no i'm talking about breaking the spell on him, which allowed Eowyn to hurt him

But there is no definitive statement anywhere what that spell did other than "bind the unseen sinews to his will", whatever that means. That's the point I made a few posts ago; we know there was a spell, but there is no proof as to its precise effect.

EE, my opinion is to agree that the spell was a protection from harm (where we disagree is whether there was any sort of specificity as to the person being protected against, but that's beyond the scope of what I'm discussing here). This is not necessarily the only possible interpretation, however, which is the point I've been making. If people don't agree on this point (along with several others within Tolkien) there isn't any objective proof to sway people one way or the other, so one could give their opinion and the rationale for that opinion, but can't demand that others agree.

[GoC]

This thread is getting bogged down by details that are undecidable, which is unfortunate.
That happens a lot in vs threads involving Middle Earth characters.
I recommend we stop debating this as certain people aren't going to be convinced.
Shall we move on to a comparison of orcs vs Conan's men?

[Somebloke]

I'm going to go out on a limb here.

New rule:

'The prophecy concerning the Witch King is really just a form of plot armour; therefore, if we disregard Conan's status as an unkillable main character, then we have to remove the Witch King's protection.'

Otherwise, this just seems to boil down to overcoming the prophecy. This makes about as much sense as claiming that the books that deal with Conan in his old age imply that he cannot be killed before a certain age.

(waits for chorus of denial)

(with popcorn. I love popcorn)

[Steven the Lich]

Ummm... I don't think Conan ever bore the status of unkillable character even in the first place. People just regard him as that. The point that the prophecy is a form of plot armor is mildly correct, but the exchange is... Well, I'm not sure it is even appliable, since in all vs. Threads, Both sides are somehow killialbe... otherwise there is no competition... at all.

Personal opinion... Conan basically never gets nearly killed... I prefer a character that nearly gets killed on a daily basis perhaps. That makes them even more hardcore. Nothing says bravery like looking death in the face, asking him if he is wearing a mask, and laughing at his hidious face and/or mask in either case. And nothing says audacity like doing it repeatedly.

How old is Conan anyway?
An interesting point came across me... WK is... what? 300 years old or so... Wouldn't that make him more adept in weapon styles and skills than Conan, who may be a master swordsman, but a man with a normal lifespan? Just a thought.
EDIT: I like popcorn too. (Walks off to get popcorn to do the same thing as Somebloke)

[EvilRoeSlade]

Alright so now we're saying that neither Conan himself nor any of his allies can harm the Witch-King because they don't have an anti-Nazgul dagger, as can be expected being as they're from a world where Nazgul don't exist. I think we can safely ignore that as setting specific plot armor and assume that Conan would be able to get his hands on an item of equivalent power that would allow him to kill the Witch King.

[Mr. Scaly]

Alright so now we're saying that neither Conan himself nor any of his allies can harm the Witch-King because they don't have an anti-Nazgul dagger, as can be expected being as they're from a world where Nazgul don't exist. I think we can safely ignore that as setting specific plot armor and assume that Conan would be able to get his hands on an item of equivalent power that would allow him to kill the Witch King.

I.E the belt mentioned in the first post. Which, as I suggested, WK can sunder. Just saying.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah, because he has Permanenced Detect Magic, right?

And the belt says "Belt that protects from BB and makes you vulnerable. Sunder it, dolt!"

[Mr. Scaly]

I sense sarcasm.

Irregardless, even if WK doesn't know WHAT it is, he can still sunder it. And considering he's a powerful sorcerer I wouldn't be surprised at all if he really could detect magical items.

[Azerian Kelimon]

But he never shows it. Thus, it doesn't exist. Nulled. Do not invent powers so that your side can win, it's the Godwin's law of Versus Threads.

[EvilElitest]

But there is no definitive statement anywhere what that spell did other than "bind the unseen sinews to his will", whatever that means. That's the point I made a few posts ago; we know there was a spell, but there is no proof as to its precise effect.

The spell however was broken by the Dagger, which allowed Eowyn to kill him, or at least hurt him more. Remember, at some point they mention that Merry's attack was needed to win the fight (through the diversion certainly helped)



EE, my opinion is to agree that the spell was a protection from harm (where we disagree is whether there was any sort of specificity as to the person being protected against, but that's beyond the scope of what I'm discussing here). This is not necessarily the only possible interpretation, however, which is the point I've been making. If people don't agree on this point (along with several others within Tolkien) there isn't any objective proof to sway people one way or the other, so one could give their opinion and the rationale for that opinion, but can't demand that others agree.

Meh, it is certainly the most logical explanation. I wonder if there is more details somewhere


That happens a lot in vs threads involving Middle Earth characters.
I recommend we stop debating this as certain people aren't going to be convinced.
Shall we move on to a comparison of orcs vs Conan's men?
1) i see the works of Tolkien are a bit like the Bible in terms of how many interpretations can be pulled off
2) anyways, lets just leave this at the regular basics and work with those.
3) Hmmmm, what kind of orcs and men are we talking here. I think Conan's men are better than more orcs



I'm going to go out on a limb here.

New rule:

'The prophecy concerning the Witch King is really just a form of plot armour; therefore, if we disregard Conan's status as an unkillable main character, then we have to remove the Witch King's protection.'

Otherwise, this just seems to boil down to overcoming the prophecy. This makes about as much sense as claiming that the books that deal with Conan in his old age imply that he cannot be killed before a certain age.

(waits for chorus of denial)

(with popcorn. I love popcorn
Not really, no more than Vampire's protection from non silver weapons is plot armor. Now if the WK could only be hurt by Eowyn you'd have a great point however

Also Steven, the WK is a few thousand years old, he was born in the Second Age

Also EvilRoseslade, you don't need a Barrow Dagger, just a weapon with similar traits. Does conan ever use a holy or good magic sword, or one that can hurt undead?
from
EE

[Mr. Scaly]

I made nothing up. I said 'it wouldn't surprise me if he could detect magic', not that he definitely could detect magic. Because, you know, sorcerers know magic. Duh.

And yes, the WK can sunder things. He does do it.

[Azerian Kelimon]

I made nothing up. I said 'it wouldn't surprise me if he could detect magic', not that he definitely could detect magic. Because, you know, sorcerers know magic. Duh.

And yes, the WK can sunder things. He does do it.

But he has no REASON to do it. He's not sunder happy, thus we have no reason to assume he'd sunder a nondescript item. And no, a sorcerer doesn't know magic. A sorcerer knows magic if he takes time to sense it, which is hard to do in the middle of a battle.

[EvilElitest]

I made nothing up. I said 'it wouldn't surprise me if he could detect magic', not that he definitely could detect magic. Because, you know, sorcerers know magic. Duh.

And yes, the WK can sunder things. He does do it.

He did realize taht Frodo's sword was dangerous and dodged a midget Shank on weather top, one that was able to pierce his robes but not hit him directly (the fact that he avoided it and then broke the sword indicates he realized it could actually harm him)
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah. A Barrow Blade. Which looked really different and regal, from the old man's descriptions. Fair guess is, a retaliatory strike against a very strange weapon is an understandable tactic. Sundering a nondescript belt, not so much.

[EvilElitest]

Yeah. A Barrow Blade. Which looked really different and regal, from the old man's descriptions. Fair guess is, a retaliatory strike against a very strange weapon is an understandable tactic. Sundering a nondescript belt, not so much.

1) Actually i think the Barrow Blades were described as Ornate, but not special the way Sting was.
2) I can see your point, however in the same note, this means that Conan cannot know that one of his female friends is needed to hurt the WK.
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah, but nothin's stopping one from entering the fray and helping. Assisting your buddies IS common behavior, if it violates the duelist code.

[Mr. Scaly]

He did realize taht Frodo's sword was dangerous and dodged a midget Shank on weather top, one that was able to pierce his robes but not hit him directly (the fact that he avoided it and then broke the sword indicates he realized it could actually harm him)
from
EE

Ah, so there IS proof then. Thanks for that EE.

AK, WK has been shown to sunder things in the middle of battle before, right? And he's smart enough to notice that Conan will still be able to hurt him once his primary weapon has been shattered. Therefore, he will conclude that something else is enabling him to hurt him, resulting in a shattering spree. And if he did magical reconnaissance earlier while flying overhead he'd know exactly whatneeded to be destroyed.

[EvilElitest]

Yeah, but nothin's stopping one from entering the fray and helping. Assisting your buddies IS common behavior, if it violates the duelist code.

But they wouldn't have the holy sword (does Conan have one? It would make sense, come on he has to have some magic swords). If Conan gave them some they would be fine, but they wouldn't know. The WK can Duel Wield too so it won't be that easy, the Morgul blade only needs to hit once
from
EE

Edit
I think it would take a while for the Wk to figure this out, remember he doesn't know who hte head human is. But considering he has a lot of time, it is certainly a possibility

Also the evil guys have shown the ability to detect ME magic in the books
from
EE

[Dervag]

Then why was he afraid when she turned out to be a girl? If it was a boast you'd expect him to mock the fact he is a girl. Instead he shuts up and attacks directly, as if upset by her big revealI think he was merely confused by the dramatic reveal. His actions do not reveal fear. Nor does the text reveal fear. There is no evidence that the Witch King was in fact afraid that he was about to die. Frankly, I think he was just surprised she didn't run away (as would almost any ordinary mortal opposing him).


Then why does he care about her being a girl. When he thinks she is a man, he doesn't give a damn. However when she reveals that , gasp, she is a female, he shuts up an attacks full out.Wouldn't he have attacked her even if he didn't know she was a woman? I mean, he had to get this 'royal bodyguard' out of the way sooner or later.


What? How did Glorfindal know that no man could hurt him. THat indicates prophecy or protection. If the former, then he is awesome like that, if the latter then it is like noting that ghosts can't be hurt by non magical weaponsGlorfindel, being an elf (and a powerful one at that), could quite plausibly have a power of prophecy. But prophecy is, as others have noted, a kind of plot armor. It isn't a protection you can rely on in a versus battle.


Why wouldn't it be a shield? Minis Tirith, Eowyn or the date aren't mentioned, just that a living man can't hurt himNo. That a living man can't hinder him. Which is different. You could hinder someone who you can't hurt by fighting a defensive battle, for instance. The only reason for the Witch King to say he cannot be hindered is that no mortal man could possibly inconvenience him seriously, because he's just that awesome.

Which, again, does not mean he's immune to harm. I mean, I could not hinder Conan on a battlefield- he'd kick my butt with any weapons or none. But Conan is not immune to being injured by me. He's just so strong and tough that I couldn't even hope to noticeably delay him in battle. Conan could rightly boast that a man like me could not hinder him. Which would not mean I would be unable to kill him with a sword to the face if he'd been hamstrung by a random midget attack.


I'm actually aware of what hte point of vs. threads are actually. That it is a match to see which two characters are stronger. Thus logically, we want to see how they would fight eachother with their actual powers.Hold it.

You have a very narrow idea of the "point" here. What if the "point" is to find out which of two people is a better tactician? A better personal fighter? A better persuasive speaker? Maybe it isn't about simply lifting Conan and the Witch King from randomly chosen points in their continuity. Maybe the original poster, and me, and bunches of other people, have some other purpose in mind- a purpose that would be better served by giving Conan at least the theoretical ability to harm or kill the Witch King.

It's absurd to claim that a large group of people are "doing versus threads wrong," because there is no published Bible of Versus Thread Rules. There's no 'core rules' for versus threads that require us to use "cannon" powers according to your specific idea of what "cannon" is. If I want to say "do you think that if Conan had a lightsaber he could beat Darth Vader?" that's a legitimate "versus" question. Even though in "cannon," Conan doesn't have a lightsaber.

It's a reasonable question- Is Conan a better swordsman than Darth Vader? Is Conan's greater cunning and broad experience a match for Vader's Force abilities? I don't want the question to have the obvious, rather dumb, answer "ROFL Darth Vader wins cos lightsabers cut anything!" That's not an interesting answer. It doesn't tell us anything about Darth Vader or Conan. It's boring. And since the entire debate is about having fun, being boring is a serious weakness.


1) Actually, that is a subject of valid interpretation. The WK has some sort of protection against males, from ether prophecy or protectionBut prophecy doesn't provide physical armor. It's a prediction, not a defense. If it's a true prediction, it may be true for any number of reasons. For example, the Witch King has considerable sorcerous powers and is a tough warrior. Maybe he won't fall "by the hand of man" because until the day Eowyn faces him on the Pelennor Field, he will never in all his unlife face an enemy powerful enough to overcome him in a situation where he can be overcome.


Oh please, not this dead horse. Standing for your point in the face of criticism doesn't mean i'm irrational. Considering i'm the one calling for cannon interpretations, your statement looks rather absurd My complaint is that other people don't agree with your interpretation of "cannon" and have different interpretations. And that you're completely ignoring the "cannon" of the versus thread, which itself sets things up to give Conan a specific ability for the sake of making it an interesting fight.


1) Conan is a book character. This is a vs. thread. A fight should be to decide who is better using their own powers, not ones given to themYou say it should. I say it doesn't have to. Now we're back to square one. Do you have any proof?


why no go back to the original vs. thread concept and have each side use all of their magic and abilities to the max. Then we have the real purpose without then uncannon equalizersHow is that purpose more "real" than the one I'm talking about? Do you have any proof that it is more real? Can you point to some original and powerful authority on versus threads that has the right to tell me what versus threads ought to be?


Could you just add up all the items he has ever had in the cannon Conan stories (comic book and books) and just deck him out. that is how vs. threads normally workIn that case he's going to win because he's got TONS of items. For starters, he's got a magic belt that protects him against black magic. He's got at least one sword that allow him to harm beings that are physically invulnerable to normal weapons. As in, you cannot even dent their flesh with a sword in the hand of an immensely strong man. Those are two I know about already.


The battle plan was about as well thought out as D-Day, seems genius to me. Not Genre savvy maybe but that is another storyFrankly, the D-Day plan itself wasn't a genius plan either. It was a workmanlike, competent plan.

The real genius behind D-Day went into some of the special equipment used to prepare for it (the Mulberry Harbors, the specialized tanks, the Higgins Boats), and into the strategic misdirection that distracted German forces all over Europe so that the path would be relatively clear to break out from the immediate landing zones.

Likewise, possibly the Witch King and Sauron had demonstrated strategic or tactical genius in beating down the West to the point where the siege of Minas Tirith was possible, but the siege itself was not a feat of genius. It was merely... pretty good.

[Zenos]

Hey, peeps, jsut to clear some things up:

The prophesy about no man being able to harm the witch-king isn't being used, otherwise Conan would need a belt that changes his actual gender. The WK still has his magical wards and whatever.

[Dervag]

So, if I understand correctly...

...if Conan strikes the Witch King with a weapon, that weapon will be destroyed (as were Merry and Eowyn's weapons). But Conan can harm the Witch King with his weapons, even though he'll lose them soon after.

How resistant does the belt make him to the Black Breath?

[Steven the Lich]

Wouldn't he have attacked her even if he didn't know she was a woman? I mean, he had to get this 'royal bodyguard' out of the way sooner or later. Actually, he would have... but he was toying with her. What part of that didn't you understand?


Glorfindel, being an elf (and a powerful one at that), could quite plausibly have a power of prophecy. But prophecy is, as others have noted, a kind of plot armor. It isn't a protection you can rely on in a versus battle. Fair enough. To be honest, I'm not even relying on it.


My complaint is that other people don't agree with your interpretation of "cannon" and have different interpretations. And that you're completely ignoring the "cannon" of the versus thread, which itself sets things up to give Conan a specific ability for the sake of making it an interesting fight. It should be a much more interesting fight with cannon abilities. It would be so much more entertaining in that case to make sure both sides are equal with their own powers without alteration. That way, people can argue without absurd delusions that one thing that has been given to their side can win them the battle, as your side seems to think with the belt, which has yet to be proven of taking away other protections by the books.


In that case he's going to win because he's got TONS of items. For starters, he's got a magic belt that protects him against black magic. He's got at least one sword that allow him to harm beings that are physically invulnerable to normal weapons. As in, you cannot even dent their flesh with a sword in the hand of an immensely strong man. Those are two I know about already. Ahhhhhh... so Conan carries a bag of holding to store all these? If he's going to carry all these items in sight, WK would be sure to eliminate him first, since all these legendary items on him would scream out "I AM THE LEADER WITH ALL THESE ITEMS".
Besides, didn't you or someone else say he was extremely bad at keeping track of his items?
EDIT: I doubt he is immune to contact of the WK, which is the biggest piece of the BB. I can understand immunity to area effect, but WK is epic, as is the BB.
Conan may be able to do harm to the WK, but he only has a limited amount of weapons... and even fewer usable limbs to wield them in.
He also needs to avoid being stabbed by the morgul blade. If he survives first attack, WK will take aim for the heart, and as EE said, if the morgul strike in the heart, effects are instant. I doubt the belt can protect Conan from that, even if it actually does protect him from most of the WK's tricks.
PS: When are we doing the switch to the Britannia one, with full power?

[Callos_DeTerran]

Actually, he would have... but he was toying with her. What part of that didn't you understand?

Fair enough. To be honest, I'm not even relying on it.

It should be a much more interesting fight with cannon abilities. It would be so much more entertaining in that case to make sure both sides are equal with their own powers without alteration. That way, people can argue without absurd delusions that one thing that has been given to their side can win them the battle, as your side seems to think with the belt, which has yet to be proven of taking away other protections by the books.

Ahhhhhh... so Conan carries a bag of holding to store all these? If he's going to carry all these items in sight, WK would be sure to eliminate him first, since all these legendary items on him would scream out "I AM THE LEADER WITH ALL THESE ITEMS".
Besides, didn't you or someone else say he was extremely bad at keeping track of his items?
EDIT: I doubt he is immune to contact of the WK, which is the biggest piece of the BB. I can understand immunity to area effect, but WK is epic, as is the BB.
Conan may be able to do harm to the WK, but he only has a limited amount of weapons... and even fewer usable limbs to wield them in.
He also needs to avoid being stabbed by the morgul blade. If he survives first attack, WK will take aim for the heart, and as EE said, if the morgul strike in the heart, effects are instant. I doubt the belt can protect Conan from that, even if it actually does protect him from most of the WK's tricks.
PS: When are we doing the switch to the Britannia one, with full power?

I think EE said that Conan should have all of his magical items on him, which is a bad idea. I remember one comic I read where he got what is essentially 'DEUS EX MACHINA OF DIVINE PORTIONS!' in axe/sword form. And it kinda levels the idea of 'fair play'.

Are we still going with the original idea or full force both sides? >.> I wanna know so I can keep arguing/derail thread.

[EvilElitest]

I think he was merely confused by the dramatic reveal. His actions do not reveal fear. Nor does the text reveal fear. There is no evidence that the Witch King was in fact afraid that he was about to die. Frankly, I think he was just surprised she didn't run away (as would almost any ordinary mortal opposing him).

I don't see that at all. When he thinks she is a man, and she doesn't run away, that doesn't seem to surprise him in the least and he acts in a mocking condescending manner, showing off his protection against males, when she reveals that oh gods, she is a women, he shuts up, flies in the air, and full out attacks with his fel beast.


Wouldn't he have attacked her even if he didn't know she was a woman? I mean, he had to get this 'royal bodyguard' out of the way sooner or later.

What and let her get the last word. She just openly mocked him, and he was having fun mocking and torturing her. Suddenly he not only attacks, he flies in the air and attacks, which is pretty hard core. Considering that she is a random bodyguard, and he was so confident before, that seems a little excessive, and considering her statement that implies fear

Edit

Hey i'm right, and wrong


Ok, people against me, how can you miss this

Is this in the book, because i don't have them and have gotten this from another source





"Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"

A cold voice answered: "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."

A sword rang as it was drawn. "Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."

"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

Then Merry heard of all sounds in that hour the strangest. It seemed that Dernhelm laughed, and the clear voice was like the ring of steel. "But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him."
The Return of the King: "The Battle of the Pelennor Fields," p. 116

The Fell Beast shrieked and struck at her, but Eowyn stood her ground and she beheaded the evil creature with one swift and skillful stroke. The Witch-king shattered her shield and her shield-arm with his mace and she fell to her knees. The Witch-king prepared to deliver the death blow, but then Merry pierced the sinew of the his knee with his sword of Westernesse, causing the Witch-king to stumble.

Eowyn summoned her strength and thrust her sword into the space between his crown and mantle, and the Witch-king was vanquished. His robes fell empty to the ground and his spirit passed away with a shrill wail. Thus it was that Eowyn fulfilled a 1,000-year-old prophecy spoken by the Elf-lord Glorfindel that the Witch-king would not fall by the hand of man.
If this is right
1) He is protected from men (hah, i'm right)
2) It is a prophecy as it is directly said to be such (why didn't you catch this? Is this actually in the books?:smallconfused: I'm not sure if the passage goes that way.
4) If not, we don't know it is a prophecy, because it could very well be a protection, so you can't automatically claim it is plot armor and get ride of it




No. That a living man can't hinder him. Which is different. You could hinder someone who you can't hurt by fighting a defensive battle, for instance. The only reason for the Witch King to say he cannot be hindered is that no mortal man could possibly inconvenience him seriously, because he's just that awesome.

This was already covered Dervag, hinder use to mean hurt, kill, injure, damage, ect. Tolkien, being an lingist would use that meaning considering the context


Which, again, does not mean he's immune to harm. I mean, I could not hinder Conan on a battlefield- he'd kick my butt with any weapons or none. But Conan is not immune to being injured by me. He's just so strong and tough that I couldn't even hope to noticeably delay him in battle. Conan could rightly boast that a man like me could not hinder him. Which would not mean I would be unable to kill him with a sword to the face if he'd been hamstrung by a random midget attack.
1) Hinder in this context meant injure of kill
2) Merry isn't a man as in the race


Hold it.

You have a very narrow idea of the "point" here. What if the "point" is to find out which of two people is a better tactician? A better personal fighter? A better persuasive speaker? Maybe it isn't about simply lifting Conan and the Witch King from randomly chosen points in their continuity. Maybe the original poster, and me, and bunches of other people, have some other purpose in mind- a purpose that would be better served by giving Conan at least the theoretical ability to harm or kill the Witch King.
The general purpose of vs. threads is to see which character is more powerful. In order to do this, we put them at full power in a closed circuit and see how they fare.
But vs. threads aren't often fair, one character will posses a super advantage. Well that is because some characters are simply more powerful. So we equalize it. However in doing so, we must admit that the non nerfed character couldn't win without the nerf. This is a nerft. Conan isn't using his own books stuff, instead he is using non cannon conveniently given to him weapons. Which isn't a fair fight, because the WK is bound to his own cannon. As i said, the WK with a rocket launcher doesn't prove anything



It's absurd to claim that a large group of people are "doing versus threads wrong," because there is no published Bible of Versus Thread Rules. There's no 'core rules' for versus threads that require us to use "cannon" powers according to your specific idea of what "cannon" is. If I want to say "do you think that if Conan had a lightsaber he could beat Darth Vader?" that's a legitimate "versus" question. Even though in "cannon," Conan doesn't have a lightsaber.

And Frodo with an AK-47 would be far more devestating than he should be and might very well kill Conan but that doesn't prove anything.


It's a reasonable question- Is Conan a better swordsman than Darth Vader? Is Conan's greater cunning and broad experience a match for Vader's Force abilities? I don't want the question to have the obvious, rather dumb, answer "ROFL Darth Vader wins cos lightsabers cut anything!" That's not an interesting answer. It doesn't tell us anything about Darth Vader or Conan. It's boring. And since the entire debate is about having fun, being boring is a serious weakness.
However Vader would win if he had his light saber, so you are already admiting that Conan would lose if it wasn't for the nerf.


But prophecy doesn't provide physical armor. It's a prediction, not a defense. If it's a true prediction, it may be true for any number of reasons. For example, the Witch King has considerable sorcerous powers and is a tough warrior. Maybe he won't fall "by the hand of man" because until the day Eowyn faces him on the Pelennor Field, he will never in all his unlife face an enemy powerful enough to overcome him in a situation where he can be overcome.
The wording only said he wouldn't fall to man and couldn't be hindered by man. Said nothing of Eowyn, Pellennor Fields, or what not. So anyone who isn't a living man could hurt him.



My complaint is that other people don't agree with your interpretation of "cannon" and have different interpretations. And that you're completely ignoring the "cannon" of the versus thread, which itself sets things up to give Conan a specific ability for the sake of making it an interesting fight.
Cannon as these powers are cannonly established in their stories. IE the Wk can use what he can use in his stories, and Conan can use his canon powers


You say it should. I say it doesn't have to. Now we're back to square one. Do you have any proof?

Because mine is simply taking the characters and letting them go at each other as they should, while yours requires OP favoritism and manipulation, which however well intended is still favoring one side



How is that purpose more "real" than the one I'm talking about? Do you have any proof that it is more real? Can you point to some original and powerful authority on versus threads that has the right to tell me what versus threads ought to be?
Yes, beacuse it is two characters going full out to see who is actually more powerful (in this case with mass miltary), while yours is simply a form of nerfing and favoritism. Who would win, the WK or Conan? Well with both sides Nerfed you can't tell. So make them both at full power and then let us decide


In that case he's going to win because he's got TONS of items.
I've been asking about these for 11 pages, why hasn't nobody listed them


For starters, he's got a magic belt that protects him against black magic. He's got at least one sword that allow him to harm beings that are physically invulnerable to normal weapons. As in, you cannot even dent their flesh with a sword in the hand of an immensely strong man. Those are two I know about already.

Book details please? Other items and powers? I'm interested, it makes for a good thread


Frankly, the D-Day plan itself wasn't a genius plan either. It was a workmanlike, competent plan.

The real genius behind D-Day went into some of the special equipment used to prepare for it (the Mulberry Harbors, the specialized tanks, the Higgins Boats), and into the strategic misdirection that distracted German forces all over Europe so that the path would be relatively clear to break out from the immediate landing zones.
Exactly. It wasn't a 2nd Bull Run or Chancellorsville but it was like most real like battles, good enough. It was a very good plan, its genius like D-Day's was the massive amount of preparation. You can't fault the plan in any way for that
Now if the Nazis had defeated the USSR in a day and already had their army moving back, their northern army was unexpectedly there, the The generals randomly died for no real reason and a huge french and Italion Axis force showed up out of no where at the same time the Japanese scored a major naval victory, then you really can't blame the nazis




Likewise, possibly the Witch King and Sauron had demonstrated strategic or tactical genius in beating down the West to the point where the siege of Minas Tirith was possible, but the siege itself was not a feat of genius. It was merely... pretty good.
More than pretty good, it had not real faults in it. It just wasn't genre savvy




Ahhhhhh... so Conan carries a bag of holding to store all these? If he's going to carry all these items in sight, WK would be sure to eliminate him first, since all these legendary items on him would scream out "I AM THE LEADER WITH ALL THESE ITEMS".
Besides, didn't you or someone else say he was extremely bad at keeping track of his items?
He can give them out to his men



I think EE said that Conan should have all of his magical items on him, which is a bad idea. I remember one comic I read where he got what is essentially 'DEUS EX MACHINA OF DIVINE PORTIONS!' in axe/sword form. And it kinda levels the idea of 'fair play'.
with two conditions
1) He has to actually own it, not just picked it up or borrowed it
2) No plot armor, because the Wk has a prophcy which isn't being used

Other than that, go ahead

And it seems that yes we are going all out for the sake of interest

On the belt, i can see it working on a general area of effect, but not direct contact with the Wk, where it is at its greatest
from
EE

[Dervag]

Actually, he would have... but he was toying with her. What part of that didn't you understand?I understand nothing. It's policy. Only a select few people have ever noticed...:smallbiggrin:


Conan may be able to do harm to the WK, but he only has a limited amount of weapons... and even fewer usable limbs to wield them in.
He also needs to avoid being stabbed by the morgul blade. If he survives first attack, WK will take aim for the heart, and as EE said, if the morgul strike in the heart, effects are instant. I doubt the belt can protect Conan from that, even if it actually does protect him from most of the WK's tricks.
PS: When are we doing the switch to the Britannia one, with full power?I think the belt should protect him from being numbed, but won't protect his weapons. However, if he can harm the Witch King, he has a good chance of delivering a fatal blow with a weapon sooner or later.

As for the heart thing, I don't think Conan's just going to let someone stab him in the heart. That's fatal even without any magic, and Conan didn't get to be a famous adventurer by letting people use him for target practice.


What and let her get the last word. She just openly mocked him, and he was having fun mocking and torturing her.I dunno. I mean, he was planning to crush her face with a morning star. That counts as the last word in my book.


Ok, people against me, how can you miss this

Is this in the book, because i don't have them and have gotten this from another sourceIt's not that I missed it. It's that it doesn't mean what you think it means.


If this is right
1) He is protected from men (hah, i'm right)
2) It is a prophecy as it is directly said to be such (why didn't you catch this? Is this actually in the books?:smallconfused: I'm not sure if the passage goes that way.
4) If not, we don't know it is a prophecy, because it could very well be a protection, so you can't automatically claim it is plot armor and get ride of it All it means is that the Witch King says no man may hinder him. Hinder means "stop," "prevent," or "delay." It does not mean "kill" or "wound." Therefore, when the Witch King says "Fool! No living man may hinder me!" it does not prove that he cannot be physically harmed by a living man.

First of all, it does not mean that there are men NOT currently alive who would be unable to hinder him. For example, we have Hurin, legendary badass warrior and founder of kingdoms. Perhaps Hurin could have hindered the Witch King, but Hurin is many centuries dead.

Moreover, "hinder" doesn't mean "harm" or "kill," and you can look this up in a dictionary any time you like.


This was already covered Dervag, hinder use to mean hurt, kill, injure, damage, ect. Tolkien, being an lingist would use that meaning considering the context Tolkein, being a linguist, would not, because "hinder" and "kill" do not in fact mean the same thing.


But vs. threads aren't often fair, one character will posses a super advantage. Well that is because some characters are simply more powerful. So we equalize it. However in doing so, we must admit that the non nerfed character couldn't win without the nerf. This is a nerft. Conan isn't using his own books stuff, instead he is using non cannon conveniently given to him weapons. Which isn't a fair fight, because the WK is bound to his own cannon. As i said, the WK with a rocket launcher doesn't prove anythingWell, the magic belt that protects him from the Witch King's magic is an actual Conan "book thing." He really got it in one of his adventures. It protects him from hostile magic.

Having the magic belt also allow him to pierce the Witch King's magical defenses is an inference because the Witch King's magic is from a different universe. However, it's not a totally unreasonable one.


However Vader would win if he had his light saber, so you are already admiting that Conan would lose if it wasn't for the nerf.So?

Darth Vader comes from a universe with better weapons. That doesn't mean he's a better fighter. Why on God's green Earth would I be more interested in knowing Darth Vader could win a duel because he has a better sword than I am in knowing who's the better fighter.


Because mine is simply taking the characters and letting them go at each other as they should, while yours requires OP favoritism and manipulation, which however well intended is still favoring one sideYou don't understand.

I view each vs. thread as a separate battle with unique conditions. Ideally, the goal should be to answer an interesting question like "who's the better swordsman, Conan or Darth Vader?" or "Who's the better general, Conan or the Witch King?"

When the whole vs. thread boils down to one stupid thing, like the Witch King's supposed invulnerability to attacks by any and all men, it's boring and dumb and it isn't an interesting question.

I want to see threads that look like:
"Conan is a great swordsman."
"So's the Witch King."
"As great as Conan?"
"OK, not THAT great. But it won't matter much, because the Witch King is invulnerable to..."
"The belt, remember?"
"Right. Well, yeah, but the Witch King has a flying mount to overwatch the battle, and four times as many troops."
"I'd bet an Aquilonian against an orc any day, and Conan's great at ambush tactics."
"Orcs are good archers, and they can see in the dark."
"Crud. You're right... you know, I'm honestly not sure Conan can win this. I mean, he's got a chance, but he's really badly outgunned and I'm not sure he can even kill the Witch King in single combat, let alone with all those orcs around. If he had a bigger army, I think he could do it, though."
"Maybe."

I think that's a much more interesting argument than:
"Conan can't win because WK is invulnerable to men."
"No he isn't. Belt, remember?"
"Screw the belt, WK is invulnerable to men."
"I'm not actually sure the text supports what you're saying."
"No, it's obvious, WK is invulnerable to men."
"I don't think it's obvious, and that word doesn't mean what you think it means."
"No, it's obvious, WK is invulnerable to men."
[repeat]

What's the point of that?


I've been asking about these for 11 pages, why hasn't nobody listed themBecause it's hard. There are dozens of Conan stories written by Howard, and many dozens more written by other authors in the 'expanded universe.' To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever made a complete list of all the magic items Conan picked up in all those stories and still had at the end of the story. Remember, Conan loots and steals a lot. He gets most of his wealth by taking it from somewhere.


More than pretty good, it had not real faults in it. It just wasn't genre savvyI wouldn't call it genre savviness, but I agree it was pretty good. The heroes overcame the plan, but only by heroic effort. Which is a sign of a good plan. On the other hand, all the things that were done were the kind of things they teach generals to do all the time in school. It wasn't a plan with any brilliant strokes of genius- it was "build a very large army and use it." The use of the army was efficient and very competent, but not brilliant.


with two conditions
1) He has to actually own it, not just picked it up or borrowed itMost of what Conan has ever "owned," he picked up. He's the inspiration for all those D&D parties who bust into the dungeon and loot the gold and magic items, remember?

A reasonable definition of "own" in Conan's case would be items that he picked up and still had at the end of the adventure. However, you never see him hang on to those items from adventure to adventure, because it violates the format of Conan stories.

If Conan were like a D&D adventurer who kept his stuff, he'd have a LOT of magic items, though.

[WalkingTarget]

Ok, people against me, how can you miss this

Is this in the book, because i don't have them and have gotten this from another source

If this is right
1) He is protected from men (hah, i'm right)
2) It is a prophecy as it is directly said to be such (why didn't you catch this? Is this actually in the books?:smallconfused: I'm not sure if the passage goes that way.
4) If not, we don't know it is a prophecy, because it could very well be a protection, so you can't automatically claim it is plot armor and get ride of it


The Book goes like this:

" 'Eowyn! Eowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang. Eowyn fell forward upon her fallen foe. But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world. "

The site (http://www.tuckborough.net/eowyn.html) you seem to have taken that from is summarizing the situation. It is generally accepted in the fandom that Glorfindel's statement was prophetic and that site's author is simply bringing it up.

EE, you do see why people don't agree on the prophecy conditions, right?

Some being (Eru, Mandos, Tolkien himself in a meta-context) knows what will happen (i.e. Eowyn, daughter of Eomund, niece of Theoden, and sister to Eomer will kill the WK on the Pelennor Fields during the seige of Minas Tirith, March 15, year 3018 of the Third Age) and inspires Glorfindel the Elf so say "Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall" over 1000 years previously (T.A. 1975).

That's an intrinsic part of a "prophecy" - that it's an inspired Truth coming from some outside source that already knows what's going to happen. It's not that there's something actively preventing men from harming the WK that doesn't have an effect on women, elves, dwarves, or hobbits, it's that WK is going to be killed by Eowyn (and Merry) at that time and place already as far as the source of the inspiration is concerned, so the wording is accurate. This is entirely dependent on the plot so removing characters from their native stories is significant. You're essentially arguing about the definition of the word "prophecy" which is why you're probably in a minority position on this particular point.

Frankly, the way Glorfindel's statement is worded, a "prophecy" is more likely than a "protection" (as it is phrased similarly to other literary/historical prophecies). Hell, the word "doom" was historically meant to convey something that was fated to happen (often specifically an adverse fate, which does fit in this context, but fate nonetheless). This usage, again, implies a prophecy to me. Your mileage may vary, but I hope you at least see what the opposing point of view is here.

[Steven the Lich]

I think the belt should protect him from being numbed, but won't protect his weapons. However, if he can harm the Witch King, he has a good chance of delivering a fatal blow with a weapon sooner or later.

As for the heart thing, I don't think Conan's just going to let someone stab him in the heart. That's fatal even without any magic, and Conan didn't get to be a famous adventurer by letting people use him for target practice. There you go with that belt. For someone who hates giving dumb answers, you sure like to distribute them as well.
I accept the belt as canon... I do not accept the abilities it is given in this thread at all canon. I can accept the fact that it can protect Conan from all the magical ailments the WK can dish out, but the fact that it will allow him to harm the WK at the same time as well as being given unnatural immunity to the nazgul that I bet even Aragorn doesn't have. :smallmad: That just demonstrates that Conan is supposed to win this, and people are adding powers yet to be proven at all to ensure he does win. Frankly, I find this absurd.

I'll offer a fair compromise for the whole belt issue. It can protect Conan from all the ailments the WK can dish out. BUT it cannot nullify the WKs protections in return. Don't worry, you guys still have all that magic artifacts to use, though as EE said...

He can give them out to his men
the other way would be that Conan loses all these items like mad, or leaves some behind to fight with a select few.
Honestly, this would remove a whole lot of pain from both sides, and it makes this more interesting.


All it means is that the Witch King says no man may hinder him. Hinder means "stop," "prevent," or "delay." It does not mean "kill" or "wound." Therefore, when the Witch King says "Fool! No living man may hinder me!" it does not prove that he cannot be physically harmed by a living man. The way your placing this is like hinder is greater than killing or harming. In definition, it is rather less so.
The WK could always say no man can kill me, but "no man can hinder me" is a much more effective statement, since it implies that the guy can't even delay the WK, let alone kill.
The fact that hinder means a different meaning than kill doesn't have anything to do with the matter.


Most of what Conan has ever "owned," he picked up. He's the inspiration for all those D&D parties who bust into the dungeon and loot the gold and magic items, remember?

A reasonable definition of "own" in Conan's case would be items that he picked up and still had at the end of the adventure. However, you never see him hang on to those items from adventure to adventure, because it violates the format of Conan stories. Then you are defiling his image with this thread, giving him items which he had long since sold off and/or lost.


It's not that I missed it. It's that it doesn't mean what you think it means.
Hmmm... let us investigate!

Eowyn summoned her strength and thrust her sword into the space between his crown and mantle, and the Witch-king was vanquished. His robes fell empty to the ground and his spirit passed away with a shrill wail. Thus it was that Eowyn fulfilled a 1,000-year-old prophecy spoken by the Elf-lord Glorfindel that the Witch-king would not fall by the hand of man.
Lets see... 1000 year old, prophecy, spoken by an elf-lord named Glorfindel, prophecy dead on accurate...
Pardon, but I think I don't understand it in your eyes too, since I think "A 1'000 prediction told by this immortal elf lord that no living man may slay the WK, but he shall fall by the hands of someone else" sums up as a prophecy. Plus, have you seen the alarming rates of how many prophecies are told and how they come true? Star Wars: Anakin brought balance to the force by killing Darth Sidious.
Summoner (Awesome game involving a farm boy calling demons and other things): The emperor Murod shall fall by the hands of the Summoner. And we all know thats going to come true, despite the fact it was made up by the Jade Temple on the spot when they were driven away (Play the game or look it up on Wikipedia for more info)
Teen Titans: Raven shall be the portal for her father to enter the world of Earth...
And the swords of truth series... whole bunch of prophecies coming true in there, even if it isn't in the exact manner expected.
Prophecies may be plot armor, but isn't extreme luck and how there is always a way out just as much as plot armor as a prophecy?

[Hectonkhyres]

One thing I want to bring up: Does Conan have to kill the Witch King to win? Seriously, if he kills every single orc plus the WC's flying dragon-thing while keeping himself alive, does he have to kill mister-coldbritches to claim the field of battle?

It has been a while since I read any of the old books, but I remember Conan to be tricksy. I can imagine Conan toppling one of those ruined old towers atop him, pinning him until Sauron can send a hundred trolls to quarry his undead ass out of the rubble. Or pinning him somewhere with a lance where he can't easily escape. Or, hell, just leaving him in the middle of nowhere where he has to walk back to Mordor the long way around. Plot armor, even if we allow it, wouldn't even come into the equation.

I would consider any such eventuality to be victory for Conan.

On the troop side of things, I think things are pretty even. Orcs are pretty much crap troops, physically tough but without any real skill at all. Night helps but, unless it is a cloudy moonless night, I don't think it would be enough to give them victory.

[EvilElitest]

When i have more time, i'll respond tommorow using my general sexy wit charm and logic/intellect so fear not, however i will say, Steven, i may agree with you but tone down the hate
from
EE

[Dervag]

It has been a while since I read any of the old books, but I remember Conan to be tricksy. I can imagine Conan toppling one of those ruined old towers atop him, pinning him until Sauron can send a hundred trolls to quarry his undead ass out of the rubble. Or pinning him somewhere with a lance where he can't easily escape. Or, hell, just leaving him in the middle of nowhere where he has to walk back to Mordor the long way around. Plot armor, even if we allow it, wouldn't even come into the equation.

I would consider any such eventuality to be victory for Conan.

On the troop side of things, I think things are pretty even. Orcs are pretty much crap troops, physically tough but without any real skill at all. Night helps but, unless it is a cloudy moonless night, I don't think it would be enough to give them victory.Orcs are not to be despised as archers, and I think the image of them as being feeble and inferior melee combatants is overrated.


There you go with that belt. For someone who hates giving dumb answers, you sure like to distribute them as well.
I accept the belt as canon... I do not accept the abilities it is given in this thread at all canon. I can accept the fact that it can protect Conan from all the magical ailments the WK can dish out, but the fact that it will allow him to harm the WK at the same time as well as being given unnatural immunity to the nazgul that I bet even Aragorn doesn't have. :smallmad: That just demonstrates that Conan is supposed to win this, and people are adding powers yet to be proven at all to ensure he does win. Frankly, I find this absurd.The only 'additional' power he's being given is one that partly levels the playing field in single combat with the Witch King. Without this equalizer, then the Witch King's remark about how no man can hinder him is obviously interpreted to mean that no one in Conan's entire force can harm the Witch King at all. In which case they're screwed. Most of Conan's men will flee the Witch King's very presence, and even Conan can't actually hurt him. Conan's troops are outnumbered and demoralized, fighting in the dark against some quite competent night-fighters. It's a completely one-sided match.

With the belt allowing Conan to harm the Witch King, there's a decent chance that Conan can kill or at least wound and drive off the Witch King if the Witch King enters the battle personally. That creates enough balance to make it an interesting fight.


I'll offer a fair compromise for the whole belt issue. It can protect Conan from all the ailments the WK can dish out. BUT it cannot nullify the WKs protections in return. Don't worry, you guys still have all that magic artifacts to use, though as EE said...No we don't- the original poster didn't give us to them.


the other way would be that Conan loses all these items like mad, or leaves some behind to fight with a select few.Yeah. They go for the "loses items like mad" solution, because Conan's adventures form an episodic saga. Most of the Conan stories can plausibly take place at almost any point in Conan's adult life, though there is some sense that he's older and more mature in the later ones (and in the very latest ones, not quite as strong as he used to be). Neither Howard nor the subsequent authors who wrote the Conan 'expanded universe' wanted to worry about keeping track of magic items from one story to the next.


The way your placing this is like hinder is greater than killing or harming. In definition, it is rather less so.
The WK could always say no man can kill me, but "no man can hinder me" is a much more effective statement, since it implies that the guy can't even delay the WK, let alone kill.
The fact that hinder means a different meaning than kill doesn't have anything to do with the matter.I understand the reasoning, but think about this:

A powerful warrior in real life could reasonably boast that some random soldier was unable to hinder him. I'm sure you can imagine a battle where this huge Viking warrior smashes down several opponents, some random peasant infantry run away screaming, and then one royal bodyguard stands in his way. The Viking boasts: "Fool! I am Bjorn Ulrikson, the mightiest warrior on life! No man can hinder me!"

Under the circumstances, that makes perfect sense. This guy just went on a rampage and killed or drove off something like a dozen men. He's feeling pumped, confident, and totally secure in the knowledge that he's the ultimate badass.

And yet, if you could actually step aside with the giant angry Viking and ask him: "Do you think your flesh is physically invulnerable to his weapon, as stone or steel would be?" he would say "no." He knows better than that- he just doesn't think this guy has any chance of wounding him, or even of lasting more than a few seconds against him.

I think that is the situation the Witch King is in. Ordinary mortals flee before him. Even a demigod like Gandalf could not (from his perspective) hold the gate of Minas Tirith against him. He's kicking Gondorian butt and taking names. That doesn't mean he believes himself physically immune to weapons wielded by men, in the sense that if I swung a big axe at his head it would just bounce off or shatter.


Then you are defiling his image with this thread, giving him items which he had long since sold off and/or lost.I think you read too much into 'violate'. What I'm saying is that it is traditional in the Conan story format to define his starting equipment based on his situation. During the course of the plot, he may or may not end up picking up some treasure with magical powers. However, he almost never, if ever, keeps the treasure from one story to the next, any more than he keeps gold or jewels. I'm not sure about the belt specifically, becasue I haven't read the story it comes from. He may end up keeping that one.


Hmmm... let us investigate!

Lets see... 1000 year old, prophecy, spoken by an elf-lord named Glorfindel, prophecy dead on accurate...
Pardon, but I think I don't understand it in your eyes too, since I think "A 1'000 prediction told by this immortal elf lord that no living man may slay the WK, but he shall fall by the hands of someone else" sums up as a prophecy. Plus, have you seen the alarming rates of how many prophecies are told and how they come true?Prophecies are typically subject to the "Chekhov's Gun" rule of storytelling. Fake prophecies don't get included in most stories because they add unnecessary details to the scene and aren't relevant to the plot except under unusual conditions.

However, the thing about prophecy is that it's based on what will happen, not on what must happen. The implication, of course, is that what will happen must necessarily happen. But that implication breaks down when we start monkeying with the plot.

For example, Glorfindel prophesies that "not be the hand of man will he fall." That does not say anything about whether or not he is immune to falling by the hand of man. It just says he won't.

Lots of people don't fall by the hand of man. For example, my grandfather recently passed away at the age of 75 or so. He died old age and the diseases brought on by old age, not by physical violence. At his birth, someone could accurately have predicted "John will not fall by the hand of man." And that would totally be true- as far as I know, he was never even threatened with potentially lethal violence in his life.

But that doesn't mean that my grandfather John was any more immune to being harmed by men than anyone else. Bullets would not have bounced off him, swords would not have failed to cleave his flesh.

And yet we could accurately make the same prediction about him that Glorfindel made about the Witch King of Angmar- that he would not fall by the hand of man. The reason we could say that is because something else killed him, not the hand of man. We could equally well have said "not by the hand of chicken will he fall" or "not by the hand of meteor impact will he fall," because he wasn't killed by a chicken or a meteor impact either.

That's the thing about prophecy. It does not confer physical protection. It just says what's going to happen. The reason why it will happen is left hanging in the air. For instance, perhaps the Witch King didn't fall by the hand of man because for a thousand years he was careful to avoid situations where he could fall by the hand of men. Perhaps he did not fall by the hand of man because he was a mighty warrior whose resistance to weapons wielded by men was only moderate.

We don't know how he would have fared against Hurin, or Aragorn carrying Anduril, or Conan the Barbarian. He never fought those guys in the plot as we know it. So the prophecy does not indicate that he is immune to them, only that he wasn't going to be killed by them in Tolkein's plot.

By introducing Conan the Barbarian into the plot, we've already violated the logic behind the prophecy by introducing a new factor. Therefore, we cannot guarantee the Witch King's victory because he is "fated" to fall by the hand of a shield-maiden of Rohan, any more than we can guarantee Conan's victory because he is "fated" to become a king (which requires that he survive the battle).

[GoC]

1) i see the works of Tolkien are a bit like the Bible in terms of how many interpretations can be pulled off
I'd sig that but it might offend someone.

[EvilElitest]

I think the belt should protect him from being numbed, but won't protect his weapons. However, if he can harm the Witch King, he has a good chance of delivering a fatal blow with a weapon sooner or later.

I doubt the belt would allow him to resist the BB at full power direct range. The crop duster and the aura fine, the fear/despair fair enough, but direct contact i think not


As for the heart thing, I don't think Conan's just going to let someone stab him in the heart. That's fatal even without any magic, and Conan didn't get to be a famous adventurer by letting people use him for target practice.

Fair enough, through a leg wound would be pretty nasty as well. That being said, the Wk could stab one of his love interests in the heart and then have a lesser wraith


I dunno. I mean, he was planning to crush her face with a morning star. That counts as the last word in my book.

That isn't banter, that is playing to win. When the WK first sees Eowyn, he basically mocks here and flaunts his supposed curability's (weather by Prophecy or by protection, the point remains he has some sort of protection). When she shows that she is is a girl, then he realizes he has a real foe, and attacks full out.



All it means is that the Witch King says no man may hinder him. Hinder means "stop," "prevent," or "delay." It does not mean "kill" or "wound." Therefore, when the Witch King says "Fool! No living man may hinder me!" it does not prove that he cannot be physically harmed by a living man.
As i said two times before, your working under teh wrong definition of hinder. In this meaning, hinder means "to hurt or to injure"



First of all, it does not mean that there are men NOT currently alive who would be unable to hinder him. For example, we have Hurin, legendary badass warrior and founder of kingdoms. Perhaps Hurin could have hindered the Witch King, but Hurin is many centuries dead.

A better example would be Lord Soth, he isn't a living man, but an undead man so yes it would work


Moreover, "hinder" doesn't mean "harm" or "kill," and you can look this up in a dictionary any time you like.

as said by hades post 275

Note: while the first definition the OED gives for hinder is "To do harm to; to injure, impair, damage", it is obvious from the context and Eowyn's previous line that the meaning intended is rather "To keep back, delay, or stop in action; to put obstacles in the way of; to impede, deter, obstruct, prevent".

Tolkein, being a linguist, would not, because "hinder" and "kill" do not in fact mean the same thing.
Well consider this was brought up so long ago, i'm rather surprised you haven't noticed it yet


Well, the magic belt that protects him from the Witch King's magic is an actual Conan "book thing." He really got it in one of his adventures. It protects him from hostile magic.
and as i've been asking from the first post, what exactly, and i mean exactly does it do? Is it anti magic, does it only protect direct harm, does it shoot spells back at his foes, does it make their powers useless, does it only work for certain kinds of magic, details


Having the magic belt also allow him to pierce the Witch King's magical defenses is an inference because the Witch King's magic is from a different universe. However, it's not a totally unreasonable one.
It is OP fiat, blatant favoritism and a slanted match, on both sides.


So?

Darth Vader comes from a universe with better weapons. That doesn't mean he's a better fighter. Why on God's green Earth would I be more interested in knowing Darth Vader could win a duel because he has a better sword than I am in knowing who's the better fighter.
Except both Conan and WK isn't so clear cut. Before one should nerf, favor or ruin the chance of fair play in this match, you need to admit that it is required for a good match. Conan at full power vs. Wk at full power hasn't been analyzed in detail yet, while Conan vs. darth vader without Vader being nerfed is a no brainer. However before one can go about nerfting or slanting the fight, you need to admit one side would lose without it. What is under discussion is which person is more powerful, and as of such before you can use utter favortism you need to figure out who needs it. It is quite possible that Conan could win without the OP helping him out


You don't understand.

I view each vs. thread as a separate battle with unique conditions. Ideally, the goal should be to answer an interesting question like "who's the better swordsman, Conan or Darth Vader?" or "Who's the better general, Conan or the Witch King?"

You don't need OP fiat and favortism to decided that. both at full power


When the whole vs. thread boils down to one stupid thing, like the Witch King's supposed invulnerability to attacks by any and all men, it's boring and dumb and it isn't an interesting question.

I want to see threads that look like:
"Conan is a great swordsman."
"So's the Witch King."
"As great as Conan?"
"OK, not THAT great. But it won't matter much, because the Witch King is invulnerable to..."
"The belt, remember?"
"Right. Well, yeah, but the Witch King has a flying mount to overwatch the battle, and four times as many troops."
"I'd bet an Aquilonian against an orc any day, and Conan's great at ambush tactics."
"Orcs are good archers, and they can see in the dark."
"Crud. You're right... you know, I'm honestly not sure Conan can win this. I mean, he's got a chance, but he's really badly outgunned and I'm not sure he can even kill the Witch King in single combat, let alone with all those orcs around. If he had a bigger army, I think he could do it, though."
"Maybe."

I think that's a much more interesting argument than:
"Conan can't win because WK is invulnerable to men."
"No he isn't. Belt, remember?"
"Screw the belt, WK is invulnerable to men."
"I'm not actually sure the text supports what you're saying."
"No, it's obvious, WK is invulnerable to men."
"I don't think it's obvious, and that word doesn't mean what you think it means."
"No, it's obvious, WK is invulnerable to men."
[repeat]

What's the point of that?
1) no you say its boring and dumb. I think it is another interesting protection the same way vampries are immune to iron swords
2) However while the Immunity to men could be plot armor, protection from non holy anti undead weapons is not
3) and try a slightly less forced conversation to prove your point

"Hey, who would win, conan or the WK"
"well, it depends. is it a duel, or a full scale battle"
"Well, how about Conan and 500 against "
"Well Conan is vastly out numbered and is at a really bad disadvantage, so i'll give this to the WK."
"well how about equal numbers then"
"Well the Wk normally has more forces and his aren't good on their own normally, so it is still slanted"
"Well how about both of them fighting directly?"
"Well Conan can't hurt him, i mean between the BB and his protection against most weapons Conan needs to figure out his powers first to be able to hurt him, if they fight straight out Conan will die"
"well what if Conan had a belt that made him immune to BB and a sword that could hurt him"
"Does he?"
"Yes, he should have a magical sword and belt to protect him from all of the WK's powers"
"Does he actually have that in the books?"
"Um, something like that. But he'd win right"
"Wait a second, is he actually using his own stuff at this point"
"Just go with it"
"But your cheating. You've just given Conan total immunity to all of the WK's protections then call it fair play. Does the WK get a hand gun."
"No, that is just silly."
"Well i suppose Conan could win, but that is pretty much just because you made the situation favor him. I mean if the Wk had a whole army and Conan was by himself it would be a similar situation. Just use what they acctually have in the books dude"




Because it's hard. There are dozens of Conan stories written by Howard, and many dozens more written by other authors in the 'expanded universe.' To the best of my knowledge, [i]no one has ever made a complete list of all the magic items Conan picked up in all those stories and still had at the end of the story. Remember, Conan loots and steals a lot. He gets most of his wealth by taking it from somewhere.
That is one of the joys of Vs. threads, finding out everything. At least find out what you can with books and say what they do actually and we would have some options
1) When i say picked up, i mean he can't use something he simply picked up for one fight then promply lost, or an item that he held for like 20 seconds. For example, if he used a sword of fire for one fight, but gave it away right after no dice, but if he took a helmet that let him see in the dark and wander off into the sun set with it he is good to go
2) What isn't considered Conan cannon? The movies and the games right? is everything ok?


I wouldn't call it genre savviness, but I agree it was pretty good. The heroes overcame the plan, but only by heroic effort. Which is a sign of a good plan. On the other hand, all the things that were done were the kind of things they teach generals to do all the time in school. It wasn't a plan with any brilliant strokes of genius- it was "build a very large army and use it." The use of the army was efficient and very competent, but not brilliant.
A little more than that, see Black Ships, the fact he made a ram for the explicit purpose of destroying the gate, the slow destruction of gondor's allies and armies, and the corruption of its leaders.




A reasonable definition of "own" in Conan's case would be items that he picked up and still had at the end of the adventure. However, you never see him hang on to those items from adventure to adventure, because it violates the format of Conan stories.

Just assume he starts out with any item that he hasn't lost/destroyed/given away on screen and actually belongs to him



If Conan were like a D&D adventurer who kept his stuff, he'd have a LOT of magic items, though.
Exactly, ergo an interesting thread, as the WK has a lot of men


Walking target, i know that a prophecy is a perfectly valid possibility, but so is a protection. THe thing is, regardless of source, we don't actually know what is the source.


the other way would be that Conan loses all these items like mad, or leaves some behind to fight with a select few.
Honestly, this would remove a whole lot of pain from both sides, and it makes this more interesting.
well conan has most likely a small nation's worth of magic items, so i'd think he'd be fine in terms of magic items. However, i don't think that will help him in the end



One thing I want to bring up: Does Conan have to kill the Witch King to win? Seriously, if he kills every single orc plus the WC's flying dragon-thing while keeping himself alive, does he have to kill mister-coldbritches to claim the field of battle?

It has been a while since I read any of the old books, but I remember Conan to be tricksy. I can imagine Conan toppling one of those ruined old towers atop him, pinning him until Sauron can send a hundred trolls to quarry his undead ass out of the rubble. Or pinning him somewhere with a lance where he can't easily escape. Or, hell, just leaving him in the middle of nowhere where he has to walk back to Mordor the long way around. Plot armor, even if we allow it, wouldn't even come into the equation.
1) well if sauron is involved then Conan is screwed, but the Wk is only using his own forces (IE, Angmar and the force at Peleonor fields)
2) If ether side retreats, that is in essence a loss.



I would consider any such eventuality to be victory for Conan.
Yes it would be, but i don't think he can pull it off


On the troop side of things, I think things are pretty even. Orcs are pretty much crap troops, physically tough but without any real skill at all. Night helps but, unless it is a cloudy moonless night, I don't think it would be enough to give them victory.

Your thinking northern orcs, the orcs of MOrgul, Morgul and the black gate, not counting the many super breeds are actually very tough



With the belt allowing Conan to harm the Witch King, there's a decent chance that Conan can kill or at least wound and drive off the Witch King if the Witch King enters the battle personally. That creates enough balance to make it an interesting fight.
1) Its not about balance, it is about who is actually more powerful
2) I think you underestimate Conan, i'm sure he has a magic sword



No we don't- the original poster didn't give us to them.
As you might have noticed, both sides have proposed the Britannia theory, because Conan is screwed in the OP situation man protection regardless


I'd sig that but it might offend someone.
Hmmm, maybe you could spoiler it
from
EE

[Callos_DeTerran]

*Cough*

Well...suppose I can offer some clarification to this, not much but a little. Conan has gotten magical weapons before (Not always a sword but....eh, he manages anyway because he has trained with many weapons.). However I don't know if he's ever kept them. I know he kept the DEUS EX MACHINA weapon for at least one issue but I don't know about any others.


Are they at full power or not? And if so does this mean Conan gets Aquilonia or is Cimmeria thrown in too (Which I highly advise AGAINST)?

[Artemician]

I doubt the belt would allow him to resist the BB at full power direct range. The crop duster and the aura fine, the fear/despair fair enough, but direct contact i think not


Fair enough, through a leg wound would be pretty nasty as well. That being said, the Wk could stab one of his love interests in the heart and then have a lesser wraith

Narm. Wraithdom is not instantaneous


That isn't banter, that is playing to win. When the WK first sees Eowyn, he basically mocks here and flaunts his supposed curability's (weather by Prophecy or by protection, the point remains he has some sort of protection). When she shows that she is is a girl, then he realizes he has a real foe, and attacks full out.

As i said two times before, your working under teh wrong definition of hinder. In this meaning, hinder means "to hurt or to injure"

I'm not going to argue this point any further, it's obvious that it's not going anywhere.

Suffice to say ,I complete disagree with what you're saying here, but under the conditions the OP set it doesn't matter anyway. So I don't care to debate any further.



Except both Conan and WK isn't so clear cut. Before one should nerf, favor or ruin the chance of fair play in this match, you need to admit that it is required for a good match. Conan at full power vs. Wk at full power hasn't been analyzed in detail yet, while Conan vs. darth vader without Vader being nerfed is a no brainer. However before one can go about nerfting or slanting the fight, you need to admit one side would lose without it. What is under discussion is which person is more powerful, and as of such before you can use utter favortism you need to figure out who needs it. It is quite possible that Conan could win without the OP helping him out

What is under discussion here is whether one side would win in the terms set out by the OP. If you disagree with the terms, you are free to voice your disagreement, but the rest of us are going to go ahead and use the terms set out, because it makes for a debate that's more interesting.


...Random Convo that was snipped"

No.

So far, the biggest areas of clash have come down to:


The Canonicity of Conan's belt, and whether or not it helps him to overcome the Witch-King's sorceries. This is under debate
The whole stupid issue of the Witch-King's unproven angrophobic aura. This issue doesn't matter.
Whether Conan can actually use his equipment, given how it keeps changing. This was not set out by the OP, and is currently under debate.



1) When i say picked up, i mean he can't use something he simply picked up for one fight then promply lost, or an item that he held for like 20 seconds. For example, if he used a sword of fire for one fight, but gave it away right after no dice, but if he took a helmet that let him see in the dark and wander off into the sun set with it he is good to go
...
Just assume he starts out with any item that he hasn't lost/destroyed/given away on screen and actually belongs to him

This is something that's up for debate, because noone really knows exactly what can be defined as Conan's "canon" equipment. Is it his iconic equipment? Anything that's he's used before? I don't know Conan very well, so I'm going to let those who do know Conan tell us.

[EvilElitest]

*Cough*

Well...suppose I can offer some clarification to this, not much but a little. Conan has gotten magical weapons before (Not always a sword but....eh, he manages anyway because he has trained with many weapons.). However I don't know if he's ever kept them. I know he kept the DEUS EX MACHINA weapon for at least one issue but I don't know about any others.


Are they at full power or not? And if so does this mean Conan gets Aquilonia or is Cimmeria thrown in too (Which I highly advise AGAINST)?

Um, yes if there isn't any plot armor, and he should get any weapon he already posses


Narm. Wraithdom is not instantaneous
when stabbed through the heart it is.



I'm not going to argue this point any further, it's obvious that it's not going anywhere.

Suffice to say ,I complete disagree with what you're saying here, but under the conditions the OP set it doesn't matter anyway. So I don't care to debate any further.
1) The point remains, regardless of cause, somehow he has some protection from living men. However, even with that aside, he has the whole magic weapon deal
2) point of debate, the OP's situation is using non canonical information which both sides have stated seems unfair



What is under discussion here is whether one side would win in the terms set out by the OP. If you disagree with the terms, you are free to voice your disagreement, but the rest of us are going to go ahead and use the terms set out, because it makes for a debate that's more interesting.
Funny, quite a few of us had something going with both at all power. Just roll with it, we will find out who is actually more powerful



No.

So far, the biggest areas of clash have come down to:

1. The Canonicity of Conan's belt, and whether or not it helps him to overcome the Witch-King's sorceries. This is under debate
2. The whole stupid issue of the Witch-King's unproven angrophobic aura. This issue doesn't matter.
3. Whether Conan can actually use his equipment, given how it keeps changing. This was not set out by the OP, and is currently under debate.


1) Yes, nobody has presumed it is cannon
2) meh, there is also the issue of both sides being nerfed
3) If this is the OP situation he gets a non cannon sword


This is something that's up for debate, because noone really knows exactly what can be defined as Conan's "canon" equipment. Is it his iconic equipment? Anything that's he's used before? I don't know Conan very well, so I'm going to let those who do know Conan tell us.
I'd imagine it would be anything he has used in his stories that he hasn't broken or lost (that actually belongs to him)
from
EE

[Artemician]

Um, yes if there isn't any plot armor, and he should get any weapon he already posses
...
Point of debate, the OP's situation is using non canonical information which both sides have stated seems unfair
...
I'd imagine it would be anything he has used in his stories that he hasn't broken or lost (that actually belongs to him)

Canonicity is currently up to debate. Please do not presume and leap to assumptions, especially if you do not know what is being debated. This is the reason I'm refraining from trying to debate on Conan's equipment; because I know next to nothing about it and I don't have to time to find out. I would advise you to do the same, rather than pull unsupported statements.

Either that, or support your statements.


When stabbed through the heart it is.

Like so. Support this statement.

[WalkingTarget]

Like so. Support this statement.

FotR: book 2, chapter 1 "Many Meetings" (sorry, don't have a page number).

"They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have became a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord..."

Edit for clarity - there isn't any definitive proof in this passage as to whether the wraithification is instantaneous with the heart-piercing. However, I always pictured it as happening pretty quickly after the splinter reached the heart (Ring on finger -> moved partly to wraith world :: Morgul-blade in heart -> into wraith world completely). That's my take on it at least. Your mileage may vary.

[EvilElitest]

Canonicity is currently up to debate. Please do not presume and leap to assumptions, especially if you do not know what is being debated. This is the reason I'm refraining from trying to debate on Conan's equipment; because I know next to nothing about it and I don't have to time to find out. I would advise you to do the same, rather than pull unsupported statements.

1) Actually, the only statements from people who have the books agree with this non cannon powers. Now if in the books the belt is said to have the power to destroy other monsters protection of a similiar nature (the BB and the protection from most weapons that is) then i'll be fine
2) If Conan has some powerful item that grants him victory, fine, as long as it is canonical. If he has it, IE in the books and directly stated powers, then it is canonical. that is what he deserves in a full power match. That being said, for the sake of fairness, he shouldn't have powers that he doesn't get in the book, same goes for the WK


Either that, or support your statements.
I do when i have the books



Like so. Support this statement.

I"m hurt, this was brought up on quite a few threads with the WK earlier

Anyways WT, it is worth noting that it was a miracle that Frodo, a hobbit (normally resistant to dark powers and possessing very strong will), and even among hobbits a particularly strong one, who hadn't been stabbed in the heart by the arm, with an elven horse and a Aragorn who knew the area, and using Athelas, best possible drug for this situation, lasted 4 days before giving out, and was utterly useless in terms of combat fair earlier
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

Anyways WT, it is worth noting that it was a miracle that Frodo, a hobbit (normally resistant to dark powers and possessing very strong will), and even among hobbits a particularly strong one, who hadn't been stabbed in the heart by the arm, with an elven horse and a Aragorn who knew the area, and using Athelas, best possible drug for this situation, lasted 4 days before giving out, and was utterly useless in terms of combat fair earlier

From a few lines before my last quotation:

"And it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days."

Emphasis mine. Not sure if the "lasted 4 days" is talking about how long Frodo went or about how long the Athelas lasted. If something to do with the latter, ignore the bold. Sorry to bring it up, EE, but your grammar in this post is screwed up enough that it's hard to tease out what you meant exactly.

We get the "seems" treatment a lot when people discuss the resilience of Hobbits within the context of the narrative. Frodo, an individual and the only data point we have for the Morgul-effect, managed to not fade as quickly as could be expected but I'm hesitant, personally, to generalize a few exemplary individuals onto an entire race of beings. The "elven horse" is just a horse (at least, there's no mention of Asfaloth being of the mearas) and they only had access to him for the last few days of the 17 day trip after Weathertop anyway.

The "strong warriors of the Big People" line does seem significant, but then again, Gandalf wasn't around to "know" the heavy hitters in that category (the Istari came to Middle-earth with the Third Age already in progress, so they never interacted with the likes of Turin or his father). Likewise, while Gandalf has known some that would have been overcome quickly, this does not prove that all of them would be. It's a toss-up. Boromir (the Steward of Gondor, not the member of the Fellowship) was struck by a Morgul Arrow (which we have no exact information on, but the name is suggestive) and lived for at least another 12 years and never became a wraith.

[EvilElitest]

From a few lines before my last quotation:

"And it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days."

Emphasis mine. Not sure if the "lasted 4 days" is talking about how long Frodo went or about how long the Athelas lasted. If something to do with the latter, ignore the bold. Sorry to bring it up, EE, but your grammar in this post is screwed up enough that it's hard to tease out what you meant exactly.

1) I'm dyslexic, leave my grammer alone
2) Through the number was my bad, Frodo spent 4 days in the care of elrond.
3) Also hobbits are mentioned quite a few times for being very strong will and resistent to such magic (the ring ect) over the course of the book





We get the "seems" treatment a lot when people discuss the resilience of Hobbits within the context of the narrative. Frodo, an individual and the only data point we have for the Morgul-effect, managed to not fade as quickly as could be expected but I'm hesitant, personally, to generalize a few exemplary individuals onto an entire race of beings. The "elven horse" is just a horse (at least, there's no mention of Asfaloth being of the mearas) and they only had access to him for the last few days of the 17 day trip after Weathertop anyway.
1) Actually, the elven horse is said to be faster than the horses of the Black Riders, who's horses are of Rohan kind, if not Mearas.
2) well lets think this through. Frodo has the splinter for 17 days. Now 4 of those days are in the care of elrond, other wise he would have died. Now for those remaining 13 days, he was moving very quickly, and the last few days he needed the care of a super horse. Even before that he has to ride bill. Now he is pretty tough for a hobbit, and hobbits are tougher than normal humans. And even with Frodo's toughness, he needed the care of the Kingsfoil from Aragorn, which was the best that could be obtained, and even then he was pretty useless for most of the journy. A wound to the heart would instantly kill somebody (duh) and presumable, very quickly rise them as a wraith.



The "strong warriors of the Big People" line does seem significant, but then again, Gandalf wasn't around to "know" the heavy hitters in that category (the Istari came to Middle-earth with the Third Age already in progress, so they never interacted with the likes of Turin or his father). Likewise, while Gandalf has known some that would have been overcome quickly, this does not prove that all of them would be. It's a toss-up. Boromir (the Steward of Gondor, not the member of the Fellowship) was struck by a Morgul Arrow (which we have no exact information on, but the name is suggestive) and lived for at least another 12 years and never became a wraith.
1) I think a morgul arrow is an arrow from mordor i'd imagine. Faramir was hit by a harad arrow after the BB and was out of it for a while
2) Also i think Gandalf knows what he is talking about when he says warior of the big people. We can presume that a normal warrior without magical protection will go down very quickly
from
EE

[EvilElitest]

From a few lines before my last quotation:

"And it seems that Hobbits fade very reluctantly. I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days."

Emphasis mine. Not sure if the "lasted 4 days" is talking about how long Frodo went or about how long the Athelas lasted. If something to do with the latter, ignore the bold. Sorry to bring it up, EE, but your grammar in this post is screwed up enough that it's hard to tease out what you meant exactly.

1) I'm dyslexic, leave my grammer alone
2) Through the number was my bad, Frodo spent 4 days in the care of elrond.
3) Also hobbits are mentioned quite a few times for being very strong will and resistent to such magic (the ring ect) over the course of the book





We get the "seems" treatment a lot when people discuss the resilience of Hobbits within the context of the narrative. Frodo, an individual and the only data point we have for the Morgul-effect, managed to not fade as quickly as could be expected but I'm hesitant, personally, to generalize a few exemplary individuals onto an entire race of beings. The "elven horse" is just a horse (at least, there's no mention of Asfaloth being of the mearas) and they only had access to him for the last few days of the 17 day trip after Weathertop anyway.
1) Actually, the elven horse is said to be faster than the horses of the Black Riders, who's horses are of Rohan kind, if not Mearas.
2) well lets think this through. Frodo has the splinter for 17 days. Now 4 of those days are in the care of elrond, other wise he would have died. Now for those remaining 13 days, he was moving very quickly, and the last few days he needed the care of a super horse. Even before that he has to ride bill. Now he is pretty tough for a hobbit, and hobbits are tougher than normal humans. And even with Frodo's toughness, he needed the care of the Kingsfoil from Aragorn, which was the best that could be obtained, and even then he was pretty useless for most of the journy. A wound to the heart would instantly kill somebody (duh) and presumable, very quickly rise them as a wraith.



The "strong warriors of the Big People" line does seem significant, but then again, Gandalf wasn't around to "know" the heavy hitters in that category (the Istari came to Middle-earth with the Third Age already in progress, so they never interacted with the likes of Turin or his father). Likewise, while Gandalf has known some that would have been overcome quickly, this does not prove that all of them would be. It's a toss-up. Boromir (the Steward of Gondor, not the member of the Fellowship) was struck by a Morgul Arrow (which we have no exact information on, but the name is suggestive) and lived for at least another 12 years and never became a wraith.
1) I think a morgul arrow is an arrow from mordor i'd imagine. Faramir was hit by a harad arrow after the BB and was out of it for a while
2) Also i think Gandalf knows what he is talking about when he says warior of the big people. We can presume that a normal warrior without magical protection will go down very quickly
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

1) I'm dyslexic, leave my grammer alone

Which is why I was sorry to have to mention it. I simply couldn't tell what you were trying to say as a result of it. This post has clarified things. :smallsmile:


2) Through the number was my bad, Frodo spent 4 days in the care of elrond.
3) Also hobbits are mentioned quite a few times for being very strong will and resistent to such magic (the ring ect) over the course of the book

The 5 hobbits who have gone on adventures (Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Pippen, and Merry) all manage to do something interesting (giving up the Ring, not becoming a wraith and managing to get to Mount Doom, giving up the Ring, not having his mind broken by Sauron via the palantir, and stabbing the WK and still managing to walk around respectively). Hobbits are tough, no doubt about it. Whether this is a general toughness or something specific to evil magic is another matter entirely (I think the former, which is more impressive in my opinion but leaves the door open that other people can be "tough" as well).


1) Actually, the elven horse is said to be faster than the horses of the Black Riders, who's horses are of Rohan kind, if not Mearas.

Gonna need a quote to back up claims that "elven horses are just faster" or whatever. I don't have my resources handy.


2) well lets think this through. Frodo has the splinter for 17 days. Now 4 of those days are in the care of elrond, other wise he would have died. Now for those remaining 13 days, he was moving very quickly, and the last few days he needed the care of a super horse. Even before that he has to ride bill. Now he is pretty tough for a hobbit, and hobbits are tougher than normal humans. And even with Frodo's toughness, he needed the care of the Kingsfoil from Aragorn, which was the best that could be obtained, and even then he was pretty useless for most of the journy. A wound to the heart would instantly kill somebody (duh) and presumable, very quickly rise them as a wraith.

For those 13 days (or so, some of that was after they met up with Glorfindel) they may have been trying to make good time, but they still couldn't go faster than the other 3 hobbits and Strider could walk. "Super horse" claims, as I said, will require a quotation (if you can provide one, I'll accept it, but I like seeing proof, generally, which I usually do myself in these cases but my books aren't easy to get to right now). Frodo wasn't so useless that he couldn't defy the WK himself at the end of the chase. He wasn't nearly as out of it in the book as he was in the films.


1) I think a morgul arrow is an arrow from mordor i'd imagine. Faramir was hit by a harad arrow after the BB and was out of it for a while
2) Also i think Gandalf knows what he is talking about when he says warior of the big people. We can presume that a normal warrior without magical protection will go down very quickly
from
EE

On 2) - yeah, but Gandalf's phrasing isn't categorical. "I have known great warriors of the Big People" is not the same as "all great warriors of the Big People". I, personally, have known people who have died from cancer, but that doesn't imply that all people I meet who develop cancer will die from it too (I know some people who've been in remission long enough that they're "cured" for all intents and purposes)?

[EvilElitest]

Which is why I was sorry to have to mention it. I simply couldn't tell what you were trying to say as a result of it. This post has clarified things. :smallsmile:


Alrigh then


The 5 hobbits who have gone on adventures (Bilbo, Frodo, Sam, Pippen, and Merry) all manage to do something interesting (giving up the Ring, not becoming a wraith and managing to get to Mount Doom, giving up the Ring, not having his mind broken by Sauron via the palantir, and stabbing the WK and still managing to walk around respectively). Hobbits are tough, no doubt about it. Whether this is a general toughness or something specific to evil magic is another matter entirely (I think the former, which is more impressive in my opinion but leaves the door open that other people can be "tough" as well).

I thought it was both. Hobbits are very strong willed and resistent to the evil magics (see the ring, the BLack Breath) like super strong humans, they are also physically very very tough if not strong


Gonna need a quote to back up claims that "elven horses are just faster" or whatever. I don't have my resources handy.

Arg, it took so much trouble getting my books handy

"But you need not fear: my horse will not let any rider fall that i command him to bear. His pace is light and smooth; and if danger presses too near, he wil bear you awaywith a speed that even the black steeds of the enemy cannot rival"
P.223


For those 13 days (or so, some of that was after they met up with Glorfindel) they may have been trying to make good time, but they still couldn't go faster than the other 3 hobbits and Strider could walk. "Super horse" claims, as I said, will require a quotation (if you can provide one, I'll accept it, but I like seeing proof, generally, which I usually do myself in these cases but my books aren't easy to get to right now). Frodo wasn't so useless that he couldn't defy the WK himself at the end of the chase. He wasn't nearly as out of it in the book as he was in the films.
actually, through the trip, they do have aragorn to guide them and they have a pony, without being chased by the Black Riders at first (who are content to wait)

Remember, the Black Riders were content to simply sit back and wait for the morgul blade to take effect. implying that he was confident that Frodo would go down quickly. Considering that Frodo was a tough hobbit and had Aragorn's healing methods and a freaking horse he lived, but the Wk expected him to die before chasing after him




On 2) - yeah, but Gandalf's phrasing isn't categorical. "I have known great warriors of the Big People" is not the same as "all great warriors of the Big People". I, personally, have known people who have died from cancer, but that doesn't imply that all people I meet who develop cancer will die from it too (I know some people who've been in remission long enough that they're "cured" for all intents and purposes)?

That seems rather nitpicky however. i mean the implications are clear, that human warriors normally die far soon than frodo did

Tolkien analyzes is fun
from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

This thread has inspired me. I'm making a compendium of Versus Thread rules. A "Gentleman's Agreement", AKA Cold War prelude, if you might. Here goes a first draft:

1) All sides are operating at their highest efficiency and highest power level, except for...
2) No side has setting specific (Such as a monster being vulnerable only to a particular sword of Arthurian Legend) immunities or Deus Ex/I Win powers (Such as reality benders or protections that kill anybody inside a certain range).
3) The sides are all facing off in a neutral battlefield. Said battlefield can contain advantages for a side, but they must be counteracted by advantages of equal magnitude for the other side.
4) Only abilities displayed and with a first hand account may be used. Informed abilities do not work. Neither do possible or probable abilities. All abilities used must have been defined by the author and demonstrated, not implied. A few exceptions may apply, but that must not be the norm.
5) One off tricks do not work and do not count.
6) Optional Rule: At the discretion of all the playgrounders, cathegories of power may be created, to facilitate the creation of reasonable versus threads for playgrounders. Examples could be, in inverse order of power:

Low power: Normal Earth, in an appropriate period.
Low magic/low technology settings with fantastic characters, Badass Normals: Watchmen.
Tweaked Magic, tech above the current Earth techonology, completely cinematic and heroic: Artemis Fowl, Lord of the Rings, Conan.
Plentiful magic, Cyberpunk, clearly superhuman heroes, who are not supers or the like: Warhammer.
High magic, ultratech, supers: D&D, current DC comics without reality benders, Shadowrun.
Over The Top, superpowerful tech, Gross Magic: Star Wars, WH40K, Exalted, Epic D&D without total reality benders.

Any ideas? Comments?

[EvilElitest]

This thread has inspired me. I'm making a compendium of Versus Thread rules. A "Gentleman's Agreement", AKA Cold War prelude, if you might. Here goes a first draft:

hmmmmm maybe you could get it stickied


1) All sides are operating at their highest efficiency and highest power level, except for...
2) No side has setting specific (Such as a monster being vulnerable only to a particular sword of Arthurian Legend) immunities or Deus Ex/I Win powers (Such as reality benders or protections that kill anybody inside a certain range).
3) The sides are all facing off in a neutral battlefield. Said battlefield can contain advantages for a side, but they must be counteracted by advantages of equal magnitude for the other side.
4) Only abilities displayed and with a first hand account may be used. Informed abilities do not work. Neither do possible or probable abilities. All abilities used must have been defined by the author and demonstrated, not implied. A few exceptions may apply, but that must not be the norm.
5) One off tricks do not work and do not count.
6) Optional Rule: At the discretion of all the playgrounders, cathegories of power may be created, to facilitate the creation of reasonable versus threads for playgrounders. Examples could be, in inverse order of power:

1) Fair enough
2) Fair enough, through they can get similar protections. For example, in reality the WK is protected by all non barrows swords, but in most vs. threads holy anti undead swords will work. ALso no plot armor
3) Fair enough
4)Depends. I mean a lot of LotR magic is Informed magic
5) I think they should, work once. What do you mean by one off
6) fair enough
7) All of the above can be changed in a situation, but the OP must aknolage that a normal match could work

from
EE

[Azerian Kelimon]

Yeah, I'm going to post this on a thread of its own now.

As for the points:

4) Could you give me examples? I'm thinking more of something grossly powerful or out of character for this, for example, the X-Man Cyclops claiming he once hit The Juggernaut with an optic beam powerful enough to split a small planet.

5) For example, in Avatar The Last Airbender, there's the season one finale with the weird power over the waves Aang gets once, which he doesn't keep because it makes every other battle a joke. Or, for example The Human Torch getting all of the Fantastic Four's powers in their second movie. Things which are there one time because it was a unique feature that the character doesn't have the opportunity to use any other time. A freak occurrence.

7) Of course. This are only there to provide SOME measure to versus threads.

[EvilElitest]

Yeah, I'm going to post this on a thread of its own now.

As for the points:

4) Could you give me examples? I'm thinking more of something grossly powerful or out of character for this, for example, the X-Man Cyclops claiming he once hit The Juggernaut with an optic beam powerful enough to split a small planet.

5) For example, in Avatar The Last Airbender, there's the season one finale with the weird power over the waves Aang gets once, which he doesn't keep because it makes every other battle a joke. Or, for example The Human Torch getting all of the Fantastic Four's powers in their second movie. Things which are there one time because it was a unique feature that the character doesn't have the opportunity to use any other time. A freak occurrence.

7) Of course. This are only there to provide SOME measure to versus threads.
4) Alright, i can see your point. However in Lotr vs. threads we normally assume that Saurman is more powerful than Gandalf, (the grey that is) and can do anythign Gandalf the Grey can do
5) well depends, if it is plot armor and then yes, but if they are legitimate powers
7) See you at the other thread
from
EE

[WalkingTarget]

Alrigh then

I thought it was both. Hobbits are very strong willed and resistent to the evil magics (see the ring, the BLack Breath) like super strong humans, they are also physically very very tough if not strong

And that's an opinion that you're free to have. Just don't expect everyone to automatically agree. The "toughness" (mental and physical, and "spiritual" too I suppose due to the nature of stuff in Tolkien, but that might be seen as what augments the other two) is given plenty of evidence to back it up, but I'd say it's not a matter of having "both". I see it as more of a general toughness implies the ability to resist the forces of Evil rather than them being separate qualities.


Arg, it took so much trouble getting my books handy

"But you need not fear: my horse will not let any rider fall that i command him to bear. His pace is light and smooth; and if danger presses too near, he wil bear you awaywith a speed that even the black steeds of the enemy cannot rival"
P.223

Ah, but you see, now you have a stronger argument than just "I'm right! Nya, nya." Get why I try to use quotes so often? Now I have to grant you that Glorfindel's horse is a superior specimen (very fast and trained well enough to not throw a wounded rider without the benefit of saddle or stirrups).


Remember, the Black Riders were content to simply sit back and wait for the morgul blade to take effect. implying that he was confident that Frodo would go down quickly. Considering that Frodo was a tough hobbit and had Aragorn's healing methods and a freaking horse he lived, but the Wk expected him to die before chasing after him

Right, he was expecting it to have an effect. There are a few other such cases of the WK being overconfident (or at least the interpretation is available). Everyone (except maybe Gandalf and a few other good guys) underestimates the hobbits, that's kind of a recurring theme.


That seems rather nitpicky however. i mean the implications are clear, that human warriors normally die far soon than frodo did

Replace "human warriors normally" with "everyone is expected to" and I'll accept that statement. I don't think it's nitpicky. If Gandalf meant "all humans" he could have easily left out the "I have known" clause and remove the ambiguity.


Tolkien analyzes is fun
from
EE

I think so. That's probably pretty obvious.

[Inanis]

The witch king would win any day.
But conan has his charms, they might become friends :smallbiggrin:

[Steven the Lich]

The witch king would win any day.
But conan has his charms, they might become friends :smallbiggrin:
They could go pillaging together on fridays.


No we don't- the original poster didn't give us to them.
Someone said early on that Conan gets a holy sword, but the OP didn't say that. The OP also didn't specify on what the belt protected Conan from. Conan only has normal weapons which aren't useful against the WK, even with the belt.
The OP was vague in his setting.

[Hung Lo]

I think my take-away from the conversation here is:

If there is a prophecy that 'no man can kill the WK", then Conan usually manages to figure these things out. As an adventurer, Conan is described as having an uncanny knowledge of occultish things and obscure languages from his experience.

Canonically, Conan might figure out that the WK is protected by cleaving the WK's head with an axe only to find that it has no effect on it (him?).

Then he'd likely withdraw, maybe consult a wizard or sage, and then try to kill the WK using his own plot devices - say, a beautiful and talented swordsperson (like Valeria) who happens to be in the story. As Conan uses his martial skills to distract the WK, the not-a-man gets into position and smacks the WK down. Huzzah!

As far as the books go, Conan's usual equipment is: sword (of various make), dagger (ditto), sometimes a bow, sometimes armor, and usually a horse.

Any magical items (the Phoenix on the Sword, the Heart of Nergal, etc) are plot items and don't carry forward into later stories.

So a magic belt "this belt protects you against evil magics, blah blah blah" is not too out of canon, if it exists for the purpose of preventing Conan from being overwhelmed by the WKs magic right away.

Of course, any men-at-arms accompanying Conan will die/flee/burst into flame to show how nasty the the WK is.

So, man-to-man (or not-man?), Conan loses to the WK in a straight battle.

Yet Conan (especially in his later period) is cunning and experienced enough to adjust his tactics, seek the right plot element, and go for the win.

[2xSlick]

Thank you Zenos, for clearing up the prophecy mess. It's like trying to have Batman take on Superman without Kryptonite. The immortal part has to go. "...not by the hand of man shall he fall." I would have had Conan simply headbutt or mule kick the guy but oh well.

I can think of two instances where Conan has had to face a similar problem as the Witch King.

In Howard's Conan short story The Hand of Nergal Conan is a mercenary in an army that is duking it out with another army. After five hours of battle (and having lost both his horse and his shield), an army of giant, winged bat-phantoms sweep over the battlefield, instantly killing any of Conan's comrades that they touch. Once Conan's leader is killed, all the troops begin to flee in terror until Conan roars and orders them to stand and fight. One of these creatures descends upon him and Conan is so freightened, he takes a step backward. That one step causes everyone else on his side to flee. Conan swings his sword through the creature, only for the blade to pass through it as if it were smoke. Creature reforms and Conan's hand is now completely numb. He reaches into his bag for a dagger but grabs a small stone he found the day before, which fills him with warmth and drives away the creatures. Conan then learns a powerful sorcery controls the bats so he sneaks to the enemy capital and kills the sorc.

And for a suitable magic sword. In Robert Jordan's Conan the Magnificent Conan hunts a beast that is rumored cannot be slain by mortal weapons. It turns out to be a giant, fire-breathing wyrm. The wyrm charges and Conan stabs it in the eye with his huge sword. The wyrm is unharmed and his sword is now broken. Conan then gets his hands on Flame Slayer, a three thousand year old sword made by wizards that chooses who can wield it. I'll give you two guesses who it chooses and what happens to the wyrm.

Without the WK's invincibility, I'd say Conan would wipe the floor with him. He took on a Shuggoth in Howard's The Hall of the Dead. He could put out Sauron's EYE.

[Hung Lo]

Have we had a King Conan vs. Aragorn thread yet?

>ducks for cover!