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Eerie
2008-04-26, 04:13 PM
I`m probably going to beat a fossil of a horse, but I just discovered this timeline and went WTF.

Couldn`t they invent something more interesting than an endless iterations of Sith\Jedi\Sith\Jedi... and Empire\Republic\Empire\Republic\...?

Or is it supposed to be some sort of pendulum philosophy?

But, erm, wasn`t Anakin supposed to, like, bring balance?

Anyway, it is pretty funny.

LBO
2008-04-26, 04:18 PM
I really don't understand how much more blood people think will come out of the Star Wars stone. The six movies are watchable and pretty, if nothing amazing, the Thrawn books make for pretty decent novels, and some genuinely good games like Rogue Squadron, Republic Commando and Clone Wars have come out of the franchise. But the EU resembles nothing so much as a useless bloated circlejerk full of crappy second-rate fanfic authors that like the name "Skywalker".

The graphic novel that dealt with the (first) Battle of Jabiim was stunning. It's not that the EU has never producing anything decent. But trash like Courtship of Princess Leia? The Yuuzhan Vong? Jedi after Dark Jedi after Jedi after superpowered Jedi dark messiah after superweapon after extragalactic threat, ContinuityPorn that dominates everything? Leave the poor dead horse alone.

Catch
2008-04-26, 04:34 PM
I`m probably going to beat a fossil of a horse, but I just discovered this timeline and went WTF.

Couldn`t they invent something more interesting than an endless iterations of Sith\Jedi\Sith\Jedi... and Empire\Republic\Empire\Republic\...?

Or is it supposed to be some sort of pendulum philosophy?

But, erm, wasn`t Anakin supposed to, like, bring balance?

Anyway, it is pretty funny.

Look at this world's history and tell me you don't see a pattern. The Seleucid Empire, the Persian Empire, Alexander's, the Roman Empire, Atilla's, Ghenghis's, the Ottoman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Incas, the Mayans, the Aztecs, the Spanish Empire, Austrian Empire, the British Empire, the Russian Empire, and so forth.

History repeats itself. The fact that the Star Wars universe follows suit isn't exactly a flaw.

LBO
2008-04-26, 04:37 PM
...Oh right, timeline. Whoops.

Verruckt
2008-04-26, 05:23 PM
But the EU resembles nothing so much as a useless bloated circlejerk full of crappy second-rate fanfic authors that like the name "Skywalker".

This, sir, is one of the best things that has ever been said, I award you +1 Internets, and the thread.

Lorn
2008-04-26, 06:23 PM
But, erm, wasn`t Anakin supposed to, like, bring balance?
Technically, he did - you can't have light without dark, and he destroyed all but two of the good Jedi. Which, appropriately, was in balance to the two Sith.

Note how this is the same until Luke comes along, as well.

One of the main themes of Star Wars is the balance between Light and Dark, so of course there's going to be a lot of issues with it. The end of each series tends to end up in a triumph of good over evil, but each series is, in effect, about good VS evil. The point is, good is always meant to triumph, but it never will for long - because without good, can there truly be evil?

Sorry, tired ramblings...

Turcano
2008-04-26, 07:06 PM
Technically, he did - you can't have light without dark, and he destroyed all but two of the good Jedi. Which, appropriately, was in balance to the two Sith.

Except for all the Jedi who escaped the Purge that the EU writers seem to have a perverse need to introduce.

TehJhu
2008-04-26, 10:16 PM
Does anyone actually take the EU seriously?

I only ever, ever mention ANYTHING from that crap when I'm arguing in a VS. thread or something and need to paint the Jedi as gods.

Tyrant
2008-04-26, 11:42 PM
Does anyone actually take the EU seriously?

I only ever, ever mention ANYTHING from that crap when I'm arguing in a VS. thread or something and need to paint the Jedi as gods.

Outside of people who have obviously never played the game, I only hear very rare complaints about KotoR I. Most of the complaints for KotoR II revolve around the lack of an ending (and that is something that should be brought up). TIE Fighter and XWing were very good for their day. Most of the SW games are good and people do "take that crap seriously". The books have their ups and downs, but they sell. Sure, there is always the "stick SW on anything and it will sell" factor. But, several of these sold well before the restart of that trend. They continue to sell now. So, obviously some people do. I hear they even read the books. I know you will obviously find that totally absurd, but I hear it does happen. Based on your comment, I'm guessing you do too. So, if you don't take it seriously, why do you bother? Your comment is the equivalent of a D&D player calling a WoW player a geek.


Except for all the Jedi who escaped the Purge that the EU writers seem to have a perverse need to introduce.
That's what the counterweight of Vader's apprentices, Palpatine's Hands, The Sith Witches, the reappearances of Maul, etc are all there for. The dark side has lots of lost guys who pop up all over the place too. I think if you want to try to make the balance statement work in the face of the EU you just have to take it to mean both sides of the Force were without their most powerful assests after Vader killed Palpatine. Eveyone had to regroup, reorganise, and pick up the pieces. You simply can't destroy either side. They are the two sides of the same coin. Only Kraya's oddball scheme had any real hope of working.

Various
2008-04-27, 06:04 AM
I really don't understand how much more blood people think will come out of the Star Wars stone. The six movies are watchable and pretty, if nothing amazing, the Thrawn books make for pretty decent novels, and some genuinely good games like Rogue Squadron, Republic Commando and Clone Wars have come out of the franchise. But the EU resembles nothing so much as a useless bloated circlejerk full of crappy second-rate fanfic authors that like the name "Skywalker".

The graphic novel that dealt with the (first) Battle of Jabiim was stunning. It's not that the EU has never producing anything decent. But trash like Courtship of Princess Leia? The Yuuzhan Vong? Jedi after Dark Jedi after Jedi after superpowered Jedi dark messiah after superweapon after extragalactic threat, ContinuityPorn that dominates everything? Leave the poor dead horse alone.

Thank you. Could not have said it better.

Obrysii
2008-04-27, 06:42 AM
I really don't understand how much more blood people think will come out of the Star Wars stone.

I think it's because there's a huge abundance of potential stories out there - I mean, you could write a story about a freighter pilot in a slice-of-life story. The problem is that most people focus on the Big Problems - the battles between the Jedi and the Sith ... the big political changes that do little but change where the common folk are paying taxes to....

Xuincherguixe
2008-04-27, 07:15 AM
Supposedly, George Lucas has said that in killing the Emperor, he did bring Balance. Not that he was evil. "Bring balance to the Force" really did mean destroying the Sith.

Mind you, I like the "let the Dark Side rule for a time" idea of Balance a bit better. But, it seems like in the movies at least, there is no "Light Side". In theory, the Jedi are Balanced, the Sith are Unbalanced. But that's opening up a whole different can of worms.

Rare Pink Leech
2008-04-27, 07:40 AM
I used to love reading EU books, but then there just got to be too many, with too much variation in quality. The EU is suffering from the sheer weight of continuity. I think it's similar to mainstream comics - there's just so much of it now, it's hard for anyone other than a hardcore can to keep track of it all, or even know where to begin.

I'd personally be in favour of a partial reboot/splitting of the Expanded Universe. Publish a free guide on the Internet that shows which novel/comic/game/whatever goes into which sub-universe, and then go from there. I can see several benefits to this: 1) it will be a lot easier to keep track of things and to introduce new fans to; 2) I'm assuming the most popular novels are those that involve the characters from the movies, and they must be running out of stories they can tell with Luke, Leia and Han since they must be well into their sixties by now; and 3) you can really change the tone for each universe and run in completely different directions.

That idea's not perfect (even I can see it has some problems), but it can be refined, and at least it's something different.

Tyrant
2008-04-27, 12:02 PM
I used to love reading EU books, but then there just got to be too many, with too much variation in quality. The EU is suffering from the sheer weight of continuity. I think it's similar to mainstream comics - there's just so much of it now, it's hard for anyone other than a hardcore can to keep track of it all, or even know where to begin.

I'd personally be in favour of a partial reboot/splitting of the Expanded Universe. Publish a free guide on the Internet that shows which novel/comic/game/whatever goes into which sub-universe, and then go from there. I can see several benefits to this: 1) it will be a lot easier to keep track of things and to introduce new fans to; 2) I'm assuming the most popular novels are those that involve the characters from the movies, and they must be running out of stories they can tell with Luke, Leia and Han since they must be well into their sixties by now; and 3) you can really change the tone for each universe and run in completely different directions.

That idea's not perfect (even I can see it has some problems), but it can be refined, and at least it's something different.

They kind of do that to a limited extent right now. The Old Republic era is more or less seperate. The Legacy era is more or less seperate. The problem is that there are a huge number of stories for the time period starting just before Episode I and going a couple of decades beyond Episode VI. There seems to be a break between the OT and PT eras as only a handful of books take place in that time frame. The PT centered events aren't that spread out. There's a handful of books and a few comic books. At one point in time, the mandate from Lucasarts was essentially that the Clone Wars were off limits. So, the majoirty of stories made before the PT started were all OT centered stories. That's why there are so many stories in that time period and contradictions are bound to pop up. Things should be streamlined a bit for that era. The other eras, from what I can tell, are more less running on their own. Obviously the Old Republic era has limitations on what can and can't happen.

TehJhu
2008-04-27, 05:38 PM
Outside of people who have obviously never played the game, I only hear very rare complaints about KotoR I. Most of the complaints for KotoR II revolve around the lack of an ending (and that is something that should be brought up). TIE Fighter and XWing were very good for their day. Most of the SW games are good and people do "take that crap seriously". The books have their ups and downs, but they sell. Sure, there is always the "stick SW on anything and it will sell" factor. But, several of these sold well before the restart of that trend. They continue to sell now. So, obviously some people do. I hear they even read the books. I know you will obviously find that totally absurd, but I hear it does happen. Based on your comment, I'm guessing you do too. So, if you don't take it seriously, why do you bother? Your comment is the equivalent of a D&D player calling a WoW player a geek.

I have played most of the games and read a lot of the novels. Some aren't bad, some are horrible. My point is I read them the same way I read fanfics or "What If...?" comics. They're an interesting story, but as far as I'm concerned only the movies are what really happened.

LBO
2008-04-27, 06:22 PM
@Verrukt, Various: Thanks, it felt good when I was saying it. :smallamused:


Does anyone actually take the EU seriously?

*snip*
Asked and answered, looks like. :smallannoyed:

What I hate most about the EU is that such a large proportion of it is flat out is fanfic, and of no higher quality or regard for characterisation than you'd get on FFN. As an example, let's see Courtship of Princess Leia, complete with "lol battle dragons" Mary Sue civilisation, "PRINCE CHARMING" Gary Stu, entire society of magic jedi witches, hidden jedi academy spaceship, random warlord with pet Super Star Destroyer... What the hell is this?

There are plenty of stories you could tell with average characters in the universe. But since the majority of these fanfic authors are so besotted with their own crappy stories they think they can shove the main cast into them and make it work, they have to have galaxy-changing stuff like the above. Which leads to either DisContinuity, or crap that everyone else has to work their own fanfic around.

That is the reason the vast majority of the EU sucks so very, very hard: it's so up itself that it's lost in continuity nods, so that a rare good author, someone who might have been able to write a decent story about Luke Skywalker can't write about Luke Skywalker. Instead, he has to write a story about some innocent callow farm boy with godlike power and cynicism that can break worlds, a sexless, enthusiastic teacher dedicated to the jedi order while lonely, disenchanted and pining for three love interests, the most powerful midichlorian-crapping Jedi ever (apart from that guy, and that guy, and that robot). Oh, and his lightsabre isn't the one he made, or his dad's, but one that he took from the hand of a clone of Palpatine in a black hole at the edge of an alternate universe while being attacked by Tyranids.

And don't get me started on Dark Empire, or the Yuuzhan Vong, or any of that crap. You won't like me when I'm talking about the Vong.

RationalGoblin
2008-04-27, 06:57 PM
And don't get me started on Dark Empire, or the Yuuzhan Vong, or any of that crap. You won't like me when I'm talking about the Vong.

This. So very this.

Also, *Starts LBO on the Vong*

Tyrant
2008-04-27, 08:00 PM
So if you guys know about all these problems you believe the EU has, why do you keep reading? If you don't read, what are you complaining about?

To have some kind of argument you have either read the assorted books or you are spending time looking it up online. To have a compotent argument means you are still reading the books. So, if there are all of these problems and all you want to do is complain, why keep reading? I think your problems stem from your own stubborn ways that keep you from dropping what you feel is a substandard product. You choose to vent by complaining about it and tearing it apart in every way possible, while waiting for the next book to come out. I think this is the thread you are looking for: True Star wars fans hate star wars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78671)

Don't get me wrong, it isn't exactly filled with masterpiece level literature. But the absolute hate people have for it comes off as part of a mental condition. I've read Star Wars books I didn't care for. I've watched Star Wars movies I felt were lesser in comparison to the others. I avoid the parts I don't like. It is really easy to do. I'm guessing you need to ask yourselves why you take it so seriously as only someone who takes it too seriously would get as bent out of shape as some people seem to get over it.

As for the quality, why does everyone expect the books to be filled with great dialogue and plot when the movies come up pretty short in that department? Everyone who complains usually has some complaint along the lines of "the movies are so much better". Are they really? The dialogue is questionable throughout. Outside of one fairly major plot twist, they are reasonably predicatable. The morality is usually as black and white as it gets. The only advantages they have over most of the books is special effects and real actors. Don't use the movies as some kind of beacon of all that is right in storytelling while condemning the books if you have any interest in being taken seriously. The original template is flawed. It stands to reason most of it's products will be as well. Some are obviously weaker than others, like the movies.

Moff Chumley
2008-04-27, 08:03 PM
The Thrawn Series was the best thing to come out of the Star Wars series. Everything else pales in comparison. Thrwn 1s t3h r0x...

LBO
2008-04-28, 01:27 AM
Firstly?
The six movies are watchable and pretty, if nothing amazing
I'm not holding them up as anything special. They aren't.


*snip*
tl;dr. You're reading way too much into this, it's fun, and "compotent" isn't a word. And don't drop everything for that psych degree just yet.

(Also, if you think Star Wars is so borderline, what the hell is your angle?)

Tyrant
2008-04-28, 10:36 PM
Firstly?
I'm not holding them up as anything special. They aren't.
You, personally, may not. Virtually anyone who talks down about the EU tends to pretty quickly. Try using the internet a little bit more if you seriously doubt that claim. Though your comment equating the EU to more or less fanfic implies you hold the movies in a higher regard. Otherwise it's a baseless insult as the movies themselves aren't anything great to begin with, if you aren't holding them in a higher regard.


and "compotent" isn't a word.
On no. I misspelled a word on an internet forum. Whatever will I do? :smallsigh:Any moment now someone who can't come up with a competent argument will insult my spelling ability in a medium ripe with misspellings, bad punctuation, and horrible grammar. Any minute now....


And don't drop everything for that psych degree just yet.
Speaking of baseless insults...


(Also, if you think Star Wars is so borderline, what the hell is your angle?)
I find the movies, most of the books I have read, and the video games I have played to be entertaining. I don't hold them up to be examples of the virtues of their respective mediums. I do find them reasonably entertaining and I have an interest in the further adventrues in the Star Wars universe. The stories may be flawed, but the universe is interesting. I don't expect the by products of a flawed base product to be perfect. Why do others?

Various
2008-04-29, 02:07 AM
So if you guys know about all these problems you believe the EU has, why do you keep reading? If you don't read, what are you complaining about?

Because I never have. I read synopsis and then groaned as parts of my childhood died horribly. I read the Thrawn novels out of sheer boredom once and was really glad I only paid 25 cents a piece for them. I couldn't see paying a penny more. The only other EU thing I'm familiar with is KOTOR, which would have stood on its own even if the first Star Wars movie had never been made.

Archonic Energy
2008-04-29, 04:40 AM
But, erm, wasn`t Anakin supposed to, like, bring balance?

he did...

he killed all the Jedi, then killed the last Sith lord.

i think that's quite balanced!

Tyrant
2008-04-29, 09:06 PM
Because I never have. I read synopsis and then groaned as parts of my childhood died horribly. I read the Thrawn novels out of sheer boredom once and was really glad I only paid 25 cents a piece for them. I couldn't see paying a penny more. The only other EU thing I'm familiar with is KOTOR, which would have stood on its own even if the first Star Wars movie had never been made.

So, you literally are judging books by their covers? And then the Thrawn trilogy, better written than at least 2 of the movies, possible more, is worth less than a quarter a book to you? In all honesty I ask this, do you like Star Wars at all? I know I judge books by synopsis and movies by previews, but I at least experience them before I move on to the overly melodramatic childhood rape comments. I don't let myself get offended by the interior of a dust jacket. Why does everyone insist on trying to convince others that your childhood was retroactively ruined? Do your memories of whatever you liked not still remain? Can you not simply ignore the EU? You don't, as you at least read the synopsis. You are actively partaking in it. Enough to convince you it sucks but not enough to have actually given it a chance. If you read the books and still don't like them, then they aren't for you and you should stop bothering with them in whatever form you are. The fact you are bothering to reply to this and mention that you read the synopsis means that you willllingly subject yourself to something you don't like and then expect others to join in your masochistic behavior, all the while cutting down anything positive others may find about them and making fairly poor attempts at insults (not you personally, in general). Why does anyone wonder anymore why non fans think fans are insane?

As for KotoR, I doubt it. The Star Wars background is a pretty big part of the game. Without the base to build from (in this case improve upon in most people's eyes), there can be nothing. That same game without the SW title would not have done as well. The name helped move the game, then everyone realised it was a great game. A lot of great games get forgotten because they don't have mass market appeal. To say KotoR didn't need Star Wars is absurd.

Closet_Skeleton
2008-04-30, 02:53 AM
As for KotoR, I doubt it. The Star Wars background is a pretty big part of the game. Without the base to build from (in this case improve upon in most people's eyes), there can be nothing. That same game without the SW title would not have done as well. The name helped move the game, then everyone realised it was a great game. A lot of great games get forgotten because they don't have mass market appeal. To say KotoR didn't need Star Wars is absurd.

Yes, but most of KotOR's background is from the Tales of the Jedi comics which don't perfectly fit with the movie continuity.

If KotOR wasn't a star wars game, people would probably call it a star wars rip-off and not like it as much. Or they'd say that "this is what star wars should have been", which I'm sure some people do anyway.

Various
2008-04-30, 03:30 PM
So, you literally are judging books by their covers? And then the Thrawn trilogy, better written than at least 2 of the movies, possible more, is worth less than a quarter a book to you? In all honesty I ask this, do you like Star Wars at all? I know I judge books by synopsis and movies by previews, but I at least experience them before I move on to the overly melodramatic childhood rape comments. I don't let myself get offended by the interior of a dust jacket. Why does everyone insist on trying to convince others that your childhood was retroactively ruined? Do your memories of whatever you liked not still remain? Can you not simply ignore the EU? You don't, as you at least read the synopsis. You are actively partaking in it. Enough to convince you it sucks but not enough to have actually given it a chance. If you read the books and still don't like them, then they aren't for you and you should stop bothering with them in whatever form you are. The fact you are bothering to reply to this and mention that you read the synopsis means that you willllingly subject yourself to something you don't like and then expect others to join in your masochistic behavior, all the while cutting down anything positive others may find about them and making fairly poor attempts at insults (not you personally, in general). Why does anyone wonder anymore why non fans think fans are insane?

As for KotoR, I doubt it. The Star Wars background is a pretty big part of the game. Without the base to build from (in this case improve upon in most people's eyes), there can be nothing. That same game without the SW title would not have done as well. The name helped move the game, then everyone realised it was a great game. A lot of great games get forgotten because they don't have mass market appeal. To say KotoR didn't need Star Wars is absurd.

Wow, take it seriously why don't you. Chill, its just a story and I'm not trying to kick your puppy or anything. And my childhood rape comment, I was being sarcastic. I read the synopsis for the same reason everyone does; I was wondering if I wanted to buy and read the book. Granted, I can allow that there can be a story where my initial reaction to hearing the plot was that it sucked could be good in the end, but that's yet to happen with anything even when setting aside my cynicism. And yes, the Thrawn books were better than the last three movies but honestly that isn't saying much. I like the movies better however because I could watch spaceships blowing up and lightsaber fights, which is why a lot of us liked the franchise in the first place. Its just cotton candy to me, man. Sorry if I made you rage, didn't mean to upset you.

Tyrant
2008-04-30, 09:29 PM
Wow, take it seriously why don't you. Sorry if I made you rage, didn't mean to upset you.
I don't know what to say if you think what I said sounded like I was in a rage. I don't take Star Wars seriously (or at least not to the extent some people seem to believe that word implies). I take movies seriously. By extension, I have read many reviews, opinions, etc. I take issue with people either bad mouthing things they clearly haven't read (you said that yourself), or are intentionally misrepresenting. Now, I take issue with it because this is entirely voluntary for someone to throw their 2 cents into the discussion and that they would bother to do it under those circumstances makes me wonder what they are trying to accomplish. This is a free coutnry and they are free to do as they please, so don't misunderstand me by claiming I am trying to shut out people's opinions. I am using my right to comment on their comments and question them. Rage tends to be filled with insults, hatred, etc. Longwinded and questioning why people consciously engage in activity they know they don't enjoy isn't rage.


And my childhood rape comment, I was being sarcastic.
Yes, because it is so easy to read sarcasm online... Especially in light of every other discussion like this getting responses of that type by people who are being serious.

I read the synopsis for the same reason everyone does; I was wondering if I wanted to buy and read the book.
But you keep on doing it is my point. At some point I usually give up on things I obviously don't like and don't look back. I don't post about how awful it is online and I personally don't see any point other than to attract comments like those I made. Again, I am not trying to say people shouldn't do that. I am saying that they shouldn't exactly be suprised when someone who does like whatever they are trashing decides to speak up. Especially in the face of gross misrepresentation (more in other threads than this one).


Granted, I can allow that there can be a story where my initial reaction to hearing the plot was that it sucked could be good in the end, but that's yet to happen with anything even when setting aside my cynicism. And yes, the Thrawn books were better than the last three movies but honestly that isn't saying much.
Honestly, I think they are better than at least 3 of the movies (I, II, and IV), and on par with most of III and VI. That is simply my opinion of them.

As for the synopsis, I agree that my assesment is usually right. I have been suprised before, but it is usually right. What I am saying, is that I tend to realize after the first few movies in a series whether or not I like them. if I don't, I don't bother with anything else after the one I decide I don't like. I keep reading one person after another who tortures themselves with books they don't like and then complains about it. They strike me as utterly insane. If I watch a movie that is pretty well accepted as being bad (Uwe Boll comes to mind), I don't complain that it is bad.


I like the movies better however because I could watch spaceships blowing up and lightsaber fights, which is why a lot of us liked the franchise in the first place.
That is the kind of thing people can't argue with. You state why you prefer the books to the movies in a way that doesn't involve misrepresentation or lack of knowledge of the subject. You prefer the visual to the written. That is saying your piece and not doing so in a way that openly invites criticism. That is what so many people sorely lack the ability to do online.

LBO
2008-05-01, 03:49 AM
I'm trying to think of a phrase better than "tl;dr" to describe your posts, but none is coming. :|

Anyone want to get back to friendly mocking, rather than some guy grinding an axe nobody cares about for hours on end?

Kosmopolite
2008-05-01, 10:03 AM
I'm pretty much with 'Tyrant' and the guy who wrote the 'Star Wars fans hate Star Wars' essay. Some people do take it too seriously, but it takes all kinds...

And it has to be said, Tyrant, you might take your own advice. You're clearly taking it seriously enough to defend, and are getting involved in a thread that you don't particularly enjoy - yet you keep coming back. It seems to me that that is somewhat hypocritical.

As for me, I'm just making my early forays into the EU. Some things I've liked (KOTOR, Jedi Academy) and others I haven't (KOTOR: II; I, Jedi). I can grasp why people liked those things (KOTOR2 had improved gameplay and I, Jedi's main character is excellent when separate from the Jedi Academy plot) but for one reason or another hit a bum note with me.

I, too, was first drawn to the SW universe for the imagery, and that is probably why I do and will rewatch the PT more than the OT. That doesn't make me right. It's just my opinion. I can't say much for how convoluted the EU is getting, but I would like to read some stories about Jedi which aren't so laden and storyline-bound (I have to read them in order or I'll be lost, right?) but that's the nature of the genre, I suppose. I might dip into the KOTOR comics after recommendations on here, actually. Either way, I still enjoy the universe (as I do that of Marvel Comics) regardless of the weight of backstory it struggles under.

Tyrant
2008-05-01, 11:11 AM
I'm trying to think of a phrase better than "tl;dr" to describe your posts, but none is coming. :|

Anyone want to get back to friendly mocking, rather than some guy grinding an axe nobody cares about for hours on end?

That's the problem. The OP asked a simple question about something that seems to occur with great frequency in the EU. It was actually answered by a fairly rational person a few posts later. Of course, it was immediately answered by your anti EU hate. That had nothing to do with the question asked. It was you bringing your axe to grind in a thread that wasn't asking for it. If this was a "Why the Star Wars EU sucks so bad" thread, fine. By all means bash away. I would read it out of pure curiosity, but I wouldn't randomly throw in comments that had nothing to do with the thread that would be far better served by their own thread. And this:
But the EU resembles nothing so much as a useless bloated circlejerk full of crappy second-rate fanfic authors that like the name "Skywalker". is pretty far from "friendly mocking". Or is your mocking a bloated circle jerk of people with nothing better to do than engage in what can only be called masochistic behavior and then sit around to complain about it and pat each other on the back?


And it has to be said, Tyrant, you might take your own advice. You're clearly taking it seriously enough to defend, and are getting involved in a thread that you don't particularly enjoy - yet you keep coming back. It seems to me that that is somewhat hypocritical.
I read these threads because I like the movies and I like most of the books I have read. I like to find out what others think of the books I have not read and the ones I have read. I don't take it seriously in teh "I'll beat you up if you bad mouth it" kind of way. I could care less if people outright hate it all. I hate popular things (Rap music, country music, and most of the things involving the Wayans come to mind), so I know what how some people can feel about it. What I don't get, is why they would keep on reading things they obivously hate? The problem is it doesn't stop with their own private hell. They usually seek out anything mentioning the EU and bring their baggage into it. As the second post, which had no bearing on the OP's question, shows. The first response to the thread was nothing but random EU hate. So, I usually choose to comment on these things because they strike me as pretty odd (borderline insane). So far, most of the replies more or less confirm what I am saying. LBO replies with petty insults and continues to try to turn this into another EU hate thread. I am interested in the actual dicussion that was at least attempted by a few so I choose to respond. I am probably wasting my time.

Also, I can see how you would believe I am being hypocritical. I don't think I am, because I already said that I do enjoy the books and therefore it should make sense that I would continue to read them and discuss them.

So no one else finds me hypocritical, I believe that the fact that the universe seems to move in cycles between the Jedi and the Sith makes sense. Those who have the Force in high levels will naturally gravitate towards either the light or dark. Those that don't will be forced into action by one side or the other. Both the Jedi and the Sith have the means to ensure their orders survive the death of all of their members. Between Force spirits and the Holocrons, both can be restarted from total destruction. The Jedi believe they are meant to protect the people of the galaxy. The Sith mean to enslave them. These two ideals naturally oppose one another. They are destined to fight again and again.

As a side note, they tried going with people other than the Sith (the Vong). I am pretty sure that drew more complaining and moaning than any other idea in the EU before it. It does appear to be a near universally hated idea. So, they just go back to what draws less criticism and sells books.

Kosmopolite
2008-05-01, 12:23 PM
I didn't mean you were hypocritical for continuing to pursue the EU. What I meant was that you disapprove of people who continually take part in something they dislike (i.e. the EU) and yet you are doing exactly the same thing (engaging in those people and being part of this discussion). Sorry for being unclear.

Lord Iames Osari
2008-05-01, 12:37 PM
I didn't mean you were hypocritical for continuing to pursue the EU. What I meant was that you disapprove of people who continually take part in something they dislike (i.e. the EU) and yet you are doing exactly the same thing (engaging in those people and being part of this discussion). Sorry for being unclear.
Oh, that's not hypocritical at all. See?


http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

:tongue::tongue::tongue:

Tyrant
2008-05-01, 01:36 PM
I didn't mean you were hypocritical for continuing to pursue the EU. What I meant was that you disapprove of people who continually take part in something they dislike (i.e. the EU) and yet you are doing exactly the same thing (engaging in those people and being part of this discussion). Sorry for being unclear.

I see what you are saying. I just never said I disliked the discussion or claimed it raped my childhood all the while still partaking in it. It may not come across, but I enjoy the discussion. Otherwise, I wouldn't partake in it. These people have more or less said they hate the EU, and then say they read the books, reviews, etc. To me anyway, there is a difference. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't wish to come off as hypocritical, so I will clearly state that I don't have a problem with the discussion and wish to see it continue. My comments were pointing out the hypocracy of people's EU bashing that seems to derail virtually every thread about the EU. I could probably start a thread about the European Union and somewhere in there I will get a comment that it is filled with bad writing on the level of a fanfic merely because I titled it EU.

What I dislike, is people's approach. It's pointless, and reasonably immature, to blow everything completely out of proportion. It is like after watching a movie and hearing someone say it was the worst movie ever. Now, the technicality that there is no way they could know that aside, the people who say that generally have no clue what they are talking about. If they truly believe that, then they haven't watched very many movies. The fact that they tend to get hostile with anyone who disagrees further illustrates their maturity level. Similar to people who bash the EU every chance they get. I enjoy attempting to be the counterpoint. Attempting to get something like an actual discussion going, instead of a circlejerk of stupidity and self importance. So, call that hypocritical if you want, I just believe you would be wrong in doing so. Sorry for not making myself clear. Also, no matter how that may sound, it isn't meant to be insulting or condescending. I'm all for difference of opinion and discussion. I can't stand people who have to blow everything entirely out of proportion to feel important and then insult those who disagree.*

*Yes, I said that knowing full well someone, in something passing for an attempt at a joke, will tell me that applies to me as well.

Also, I do find the picture above this post to be humerous. I can see how someone would think that is a perfect description of my posts in this thread, and they may be right. I am well aware that I am not perfect.

hamishspence
2008-05-01, 01:57 PM
Sometimes its a bit hard to read them in order, if you have been reding them in the order they came out.

Because a kiddy book had Han and Leia gettiing married, but in novels, it was deferred till Courtship of princess Leia, I regarded them as possibly non-canon. However, eventually, they were added to canon, but it was assumed the wedding was not official, or they split up for a short time (the series running from Gove of Darth Vader to Prophets of the Dark Side.

Similarly, I regarded the canonicity of the computer game as a bit dubious, until they start introducing them into main novels (Kyle Katarn started appearing in Vong and post-Vong books) and so on.

Not the same thing as declaring that they DIDN'T happen, more withholding judgement till i see more concrete evidence in the form of novels or similar.

Same principle applied to Baldur's Gate games: only the Abdel Adrian appeared in Grand history of the Realms did I decide that the events in the books most definitely did happen, since there was so much debate on their canonicity.

Withholding judgement makes more sense than outright rejection.

Kosmopolite
2008-05-01, 02:04 PM
Yeah, fair enough, I know I've thrown myself passionately (and some might say aggressively) into discussions (largely about religion) and yet still enjoyed it. I just thought I'd point out the apparent hypocrisy before someone else did (this forum moves really fast - it's hard to say anything original).

Regardless, as I said, I've enjoyed the EU so far, with a couple of exceptions. The worst character I've come across so far has been Corran Horn who (in I, Jedi, at least) came across as a Marty Stu and I felt the author was really disrespectful to the trilogy he set part of his story in.

Conversely, I just finished reading The Rise of Darth Vader and found it to be very good. The characters were completely original, set within another story and compromised it not one whit. I would actually argue that it gave a number of more human faces to universe-spanning events. I know I won't watch the end of Episode III in the same way again. It also helped me to align the immature, arrogant Darth Vader of the PT to the imposing, powerful Vader of the OT. That was something that I had really struggled with up to that point.

Tyrant
2008-05-01, 02:18 PM
Conversely, I just finished reading The Rise of Darth Vader and found it to be very good. The characters were completely original, set within another story and compromised it not one whit. I would actually argue that it gave a number of more human faces to universe-spanning events. I know I won't watch the end of Episode III in the same way again. It also helped me to align the immature, arrogant Darth Vader of the PT to the imposing, powerful Vader of the OT. That was something that I had really struggled with up to that point.

I read that book when it came out (one of the very few I was actually waiting for). I thought it was pretty good and I agree that it really helped make sense of the transition from whiney kid to bad ass Sith Lord. I believe, in general, that the more recent books have been trying to pay more attention to continuity. The major problem with the older books is that there was no prequel trilogy. Things occured and were said in those movies that nullify portions of older books. The newer books don't have to worry about that. They still have to worry about being slaves to the continuity of the other books, but there is only so much more G level canon that could come out. I'm having to deal with it right now reading the books involving Callista. I just started Darksaber. In Children of the Jedi there are definately some things that don't gel with what we now know of Palpatine's rise to power and the wiping out of the Jedi. I can only assume there is more to come in Darksaber.

Honestly, I wish there were more books in the Old Republic era. I am in the middle of the first Tales of the Jedi Omnibus. I have read the two Darth Bane books. From reviews I have looked at there appear to be substantial gaps in the timeline that haven't really been covered yet.

Kosmopolite
2008-05-01, 05:30 PM
Actually, I'm just about to start those, so I can't really comment. I agree that there ought to be more Old Republic/Non-Skywalker novels, though (as I might have already said).

hamishspence
2008-05-02, 06:40 AM
since the events referred to in CotJ take place "29 years before" which coincides well with Order 66, that made me think perhaps Palpatine being aware that not all jedi were on the battlefield (there is an agricultural Corps according to some Clone Wars novels) he used other methods.

Generally, its more dates not matching up and needing changing, than events retconed out of existence, or slightly redescribed. Example, the devastation of Honoghr, which was 33 years before A New Hope in Timothy Zahns books, and redated in the Clone wars novels, once actual dates for Clone Wars events started to appear.

however, it is true that the relationships between Jedi mentioned in some EU books, and the age of Jedi recruitment, aren't very consistant with the changes George Lucas made: maybe Yoda and company were not very good at enforcing those rules?

Kosmopolite
2008-05-02, 07:32 AM
Yeah, that bothered me - the idea of Jedi lineages and yet they can't have personal relationships. Either they have Time Lord looms or something is a bit off continuity-wise.

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-05-02, 09:32 AM
I believe that some of the literature actually outright states that it's encouraged for Jedi to have purely carnal relationships. This could lead to reproduction without personal relationships.

Granted, bearing and raising a child means putting a fairly large deal of attachment on them. Maybe they immediately send the child up for adoption so that they don't have to worry about parental attachment?

Kosmopolite
2008-05-02, 09:40 AM
But that wouldn't lead to a legacy/bloodline, would it? Just a lot of Force Adept orphans.

Krrth
2008-05-02, 09:59 AM
But that wouldn't lead to a legacy/bloodline, would it? Just a lot of Force Adept orphans.
One possible reason could be that the family produces Jedi, but not every member of the family is a Jedi. If I were a member of the Council, and I knew a specific family pops out a Jedi every generation or so, I'd keep records.

Kosmopolite
2008-05-02, 11:38 AM
Yeah, that could work. I don't think it contradicts what I've read so far, although I'm pretty sure it's not the original intent. Take Corran Horn's Jedi lineage, for example. It is tied to Corellia, so presumably his ancestors would've been working fairly closely to their family (not to mention the fact that his grandfather was married). Also there's the 'attachment' to their homeworld. Second thoughts, it doesn't gel that well after all.

Krrth
2008-05-02, 01:34 PM
Yeah, that could work. I don't think it contradicts what I've read so far, although I'm pretty sure it's not the original intent. Take Corran Horn's Jedi lineage, for example. It is tied to Corellia, so presumably his ancestors would've been working fairly closely to their family (not to mention the fact that his grandfather was married). Also there's the 'attachment' to their homeworld. Second thoughts, it doesn't gel that well after all.
Yeah, it IS a stretch. THe only other possible explination (other than crappy writing) is that the Jedi actually had secret breeding programs going on, trying to stablise traits within a specific genetic line.

hamishspence
2008-05-02, 02:08 PM
Given that I jedi predates Episode 1, let alone 2, its more a case of George lucas deciding Jedi don't have families.

Jedi Trial tells us that Nejaa Halcyon kept his marriage a secret, though confessed to Anakin, who pointed out he was also guilty.

I think the age of Hal Halcyon (later adopted as Hal Horn) is, or should be, uppe from I,Jedi to Jedi trial to make it consistant with Corran's age. Corran is at most a year younger than Luke, since he and Luke were 18 at the time of A New Hope, but A New Hope is 19, or very nearly 19, years after Revenge of the Sith. Hal needs time to grow up, marry, and have a child by Episode 3, and he is a bit too young in I,Jedi.

Kosmopolite
2008-05-02, 03:34 PM
Ah, right. I didn't realise that the pre-PT EU characters were being retconned in new literature. That's good, at least.

For the record: I do know the real reason why they don't gel, just trying to make it all fit in my mind.

Nibleswick
2008-05-02, 05:05 PM
That retcon seems rather unnecessary to me. In I, Jedi it is discussed at great length how the Corelian Jedi follow different traditions then the rest.

turkishproverb
2008-05-08, 01:33 PM
Its also possible that the matter was simply the jedi becoming more dogmatic until they didn't allow personal relationships for fear of a VADEResque incident. Oddly this would bring new meaning to balance, as anakin was only restored to light through his love and attachment to his son.

IN other words

The jedi USED TO allow mairrage

Become increasingly concerned about risk for dark side

stop allowing such relationships sometime prior to Epsiode 1

Trilogy1

Trilogy 2

New Jedi Order allows relationships again.