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Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-28, 08:08 AM
I want to make a monk/shadow sun ninja. It's probably not the most powerful combination ever, but I think it would be fun. I was wondering how I can get the most out of the combination. I was thinking of using weapon finesse and shadow blade, but I'm open to suggestions.

Eldariel
2008-04-28, 08:55 AM
Dip a few levels in Unarmed Swordsage to get some maneuvers from across the schools (and to qualify for SSN). Focus on mobility-moves and feel free to pick up Sun School-feat along with Snap Kick for some handy extra attacks from your teleportation abilities. Once you get SSN 10, you can start ripping people up.

Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade is good. Dex/Wis basis works although you could just go mainly Wis with Intuitive Attack (you're Lawful Good anyways due to alignment restrictions of SSN and Monk) to use the Wis-save maneuvers. Either way works; if you focus on Dex, use no-save maneuvers along with normal attacks (boosts are a good way to go with full attacks). I'd dip one additional level of Swordsage later to pick up the Pouncing Charge-maneuver from Tiger Claw; it really fixes the usual issue with Flurry of Blows.

Don't forget Adaptive Style. Makes use of your massive maneuver count (pick some sitiuationally useful ones; Emerald Razor, Counter Charge, Burning Blade, so on) and to recover your maneuvers faster.


One way to go could be Shadow Pounce; Telflammar Shadowlord and Crinti Shadow Marauder both give you full attack on each teleport (and are FR specific). Then again, that may be a bit overkillish. Straight ToB/Monk SSN is just fine.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-29, 08:04 AM
good idea! Btw, will SSN screw up my monk leveling?

Talya
2008-04-29, 08:16 AM
good idea! Btw, will SSN screw up my monk leveling?



Check out the SSN entry "Monk Abilities." SSN stacks with monk for class based AC bonus, unarmed damage, unarmed speed bonus, flurry of blows progression, and number of daily uses of stunning fist.

It actually makes monk rather appealling...you get the main monk abilities essentially for free.

Technically, the swordsage wisdom to AC stacks with monk wisdom to AC...which is dumb. Your DM should veto that and just have swordsage continue the monk AC progression instead, as SSN does. Unarmed Swordsage also continues your unarmed strike damage progression.

Interestingly, a VoP might work with this combo, if allowed. You get a lot of neat "Wuxia" style abilities as a swordsage/SSN...meaning you wouldn't be so limited by the lack of items--you can duplicate many effects you want as a martial adept.

Eldariel
2008-04-29, 08:19 AM
It prevents you from gaining new levels in Monk by RAW, yes. You could talk with your DM about it, but really, it won't be relevant before ~level 16 when you've finished SSN (Monk 4/Unarmed Swordsage 2/SSN 10), and really, at that point I'd just rather take more Unarmed Swordsage levels. You already have all the goodies you want from Monk, save maybe level 6 feat thanks to SSN giving you Flurry advancement and all your classes giving full Unarmed Damage Progression.


Oh yeah, another method of gaining (Unarmed) Pounce through Magic of Incarnum with two feats:
-Shape Soulmeld: Sphinx Claws
-Open Least Chakra: Hands

Bind Sphinx Claws to your Hands Chakra with no Essentia and you'll get +1 to all Strength-checks and the ability to Pounce with all natural weapons.

Gralamin
2008-04-29, 08:31 AM
Technically, the swordsage wisdom to AC stacks with monk wisdom to AC...which is dumb. Your DM should veto that and just have swordsage continue the monk AC progression instead, as SSN does. Unarmed Swordsage also continues your unarmed strike damage progression.


Technically, the Swordsage's Wisdom to AC only works while in Light Armor, and the Monk's only works when Unarmored...which in itself is dumb.

Talya
2008-04-29, 08:33 AM
Unless you're using the popular variant that has 3/4 BAB classes stack for BAB purposes, I'd actually skip the SSN's last two levels. (I don't like the downside to the SSN's capstone ability anyway.) End up with either 4 monk, 8 swordsage, 8 ssn, or 8 monk, 4 swordsage, 8 ssn.

There's also a feat that lets a monk multiclass freely with another class, although it won't help once you have both swordsage and SSN.

Talya
2008-04-29, 08:35 AM
Technically, the Swordsage's Wisdom to AC only works while in Light Armor, and the Monk's only works when Unarmored...which in itself is dumb.

Yes, that's poorly worded in the swordsage description, too. Especially when the unarmed adaptation loses light armor proficiency.

Eldariel
2008-04-29, 08:52 AM
Unless you're using the popular variant that has 3/4 BAB classes stack for BAB purposes, I'd actually skip the SSN's last two levels. (I don't like the downside to the SSN's capstone ability anyway.) End up with either 4 monk, 8 swordsage, 8 ssn, or 8 monk, 4 swordsage, 8 ssn.

There's also a feat that lets a monk multiclass freely with another class, although it won't help once you have both swordsage and SSN.

Note that SSN's capstone requires activation (including the Negative Level), so it's at worst an even trade, and you still get a new Maneuver Readied along with Flurry, Unarmed Attack Bonus, AC bonus and speed bonus from it. Oh yeah, and full initiator level. I find it very much worth it, especially since SSN 10 is epic ready. And really, the final ability is incredible, +4 on all attacks with shadow, the ability to heal yourself while evinscerating opponents with your insane Unarmed Damage and penalties to EVERYTHING. Hide bonuses, immunity to criticals, mind-affecting and so on... But yea, if not using fractional BAB*, I suppose losing a point of BAB is painful.

*Which is really like it shoulda been in PHB in the first place if the lazy effers didn't eff it up with a system that basically just effs multiclassing in the eye, which specifically is the major new feature of 3.X! Effin' effers; they effed saves up too, the bastards. Thank Wee Jas for UA and SRD making the variant commonly available.

Person_Man
2008-04-29, 09:01 AM
A one level dip in Warlock (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) and the Blend into Shadows feat (Drow of the Underdark) will get you Hide in Plain Site as a Swift Action every turn, as long as you're within 10 feet of an area of magical darkness (which you can cast infinitely, and the spell lasts for 10 minutes per level). By itself, this will make you impossible to target with anything except for area of effect attacks. (Though keep in mind that your DM is free to impose sniping or situational penalties. So be sure to pump your Hide check to ridiculous levels by being a small Whisper Gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) or variant Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a), using magic items, dipping Marshal, Factotum, and/or Exemplar, etc). Combined with SSN, and your enemies must Save or be Blinded every turn. Pick up the Darkstalker feat (Lords of Madness) so that you can Hide against enemies with blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense.

Necropolitan is a +1 LA-ish template from Libris Mortis that makes you undead without changing your alignment. Undead are healed by negative energy. Combined with SSN, you now have infinite healing for you and your party.

Vortling
2008-04-29, 09:08 AM
To the OP, Is there some monk specific ability that your character can't live without? Otherwise I'd suggest going with straight Unarmed Swordsage as it has a decidedly monk flavor.

Eldariel
2008-04-29, 09:22 AM
To the OP, Is there some monk specific ability that your character can't live without? Otherwise I'd suggest going with straight Unarmed Swordsage as it has a decidedly monk flavor.

Monk 2 gives 2 feats, Evasion and enough levels for full Flurry at SSN 9. Also, the extra speed and AC bonuses can be nice. I'd probably take at least 2 levels of Monk since else you'll be feat starved and get Evasion very late.

Talya
2008-04-29, 09:59 AM
yeah, if using fractional BAB, i would probably go Monk 2, unarmed swordsage adaptation 8, SSN 10 (not necessarily in that order).

You know, with ToB...Vow of Poverty actually looks really good. There's no equipment you lose that either the vow doesn't give you better, or you can't replace with maneuvers.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-29, 10:13 AM
Yeah. Except the most critical one: Flight. Yeah, there's the delicious Balance in the sky, but that comes in VERY late, and denies you of Stance of Alacrity, which is SWEET.

Other than that, though, it IS rather viable.

Talya
2008-04-29, 10:41 AM
Yeah. Except the most critical one: Flight. Yeah, there's the delicious Balance in the sky, but that comes in VERY late, and denies you of Stance of Alacrity, which is SWEET.

Other than that, though, it IS rather viable.


Two great ways around that:

1) Play a raptorran.
2) Play in a party that has someone that can make you fly.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-29, 10:45 AM
Raptorans are kinda meh unless you use buyoff rules. If you do, it's recommended.

The wizard thing can be tricky, because many wizards prepare EXACTLY ONE flight spell, for themselves, but it can work.

As I said, though, it's a nice idea.

Talya
2008-04-29, 10:51 AM
forgot -
3) Take martial Stance feat at 18, get both. (With the understanding you can only use one at a time.) Or use your trade-out-a-maneuver at every even level to swap a stance known at 18 or 20.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-29, 10:54 AM
Or just pick up some Winged Boots... :smallcool:

Talya
2008-04-29, 10:54 AM
Raptorans are kinda meh unless you use buyoff rules. If you do, it's recommended.

I made this mistake once here, and was corrected.

Raptorans have no level adjustment.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-04-29, 10:59 AM
HD, then? I'm pretty sure it was even stated as a design philosophy once, that wings were NEVER to be obtainable for free, requiring some significant sacrifice to obtain.

Eldariel
2008-04-29, 11:00 AM
Dragonborn work just fine too. Also, Raptorans have no LA. Also worth noting that the Monk speed bonuses apply to any mode of movement so you'll fly pretty fast. Nowhere near as fast as Large Dragons, but faster than Wizards with Fly-spell.

And yea, Balance in the Sky comes level 15 at the earliest (generally 16, which is kinda late. If you can make do with Fly and such by then though, more power to you.


The other classic VoP issue is passing DR, most difficult being the metal-base immunities with the common solution being Kensai 2 (using Exalted Bonus as the base enhancement to get Metalline). Also, hitting Incorporeals consistently would be good, but I can really only come up with Kensai 3 for Ghost Touch.

Talya
2008-04-29, 11:02 AM
Or just pick up some Winged Boots... :smallcool:

Uh...we're discussing how the Vow of Poverty works fairly well with a monk/swordsage/shadow sun ninja. Winged boots aren't an option. ;)

SamTheCleric
2008-04-29, 11:07 AM
Oh. Right... I missed that whole VoP part.

I'll second Raptoran... they get flight based on HD.. (starts out as just a jump check bonus... which is nice for those Tiger maneuvers)... I think it becomes flight around 10 HD or so.

Also, the Dragonwraught Kobolds get wings and flight based off of HD, don't they?

Talya
2008-04-29, 11:08 AM
HD, then? I'm pretty sure it was even stated as a design philosophy once, that wings were NEVER to be obtainable for free, requiring some significant sacrifice to obtain.

Raptorans don't start with true flight, and are never very good at it without feats.

Talya
2008-04-29, 11:13 AM
The other classic VoP issue is passing DR,

With the huge variety of maneuvers you have, there's a few stone dragon strikes you should have which would help there.

The_Snark
2008-04-29, 11:13 AM
HD, then? I'm pretty sure it was even stated as a design philosophy once, that wings were NEVER to be obtainable for free, requiring some significant sacrifice to obtain.

No, no HD. They have wings, but they can't do anything more than glide at the beginning of the game, and they get a limited amount of flight time at level 5 or so. That limit vanishes when they hit 10, but it's a fly speed of 30 with average maneuverability... which isn't too great as fly speeds go. By that time, a lot of enemies will fly and most challenges can't be overcome simply by flying (because Flight and Overland Flight are both already available.)

Talya
2008-04-29, 12:04 PM
No, no HD. They have wings, but they can't do anything more than glide at the beginning of the game, and they get a limited amount of flight time at level 5 or so. That limit vanishes when they hit 10, but it's a fly speed of 30 with average maneuverability... which isn't too great as fly speeds go. By that time, a lot of enemies will fly and most challenges can't be overcome simply by flying (because Flight and Overland Flight are both already available.)

although, a raptoran monk 2, swordsage 8, ssn 10 ends up with a fly speed of 70. Three more monk levels gets you 80 feet. Another three gets you 90 feet, but then you've only got 2 levels of swordsage. :(

Vortling
2008-04-29, 12:14 PM
forgot -
3) Take martial Stance feat at 18, get both. (With the understanding you can only use one at a time.) Or use your trade-out-a-maneuver at every even level to swap a stance known at 18 or 20.
I'm AFB right now but I don't believe you can swap stances with the trade out a maneuver option. I'll check later when I have access to books.

SamTheCleric
2008-04-29, 12:20 PM
I'm AFB right now but I don't believe you can swap stances with the trade out a maneuver option. I'll check later when I have access to books.

This is correct, once you pick a stance, you're stuck with it.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-29, 05:06 PM
If VoP was an option, I would certainly take it, but my group has had... experiences with VoP monks which I do not think they wish to repeat. I'm joining a preexisting game, so I'll be starting at 17th level. The reason I want to have levels in monk and not go straight swordsage/SSN is to get the full flurry as well as the flavor of a monk. I think I want to get a full 10 levels of SSN because, even if I don't sacrifice myself in a mad level-draining flurry, it gives me bonuses to attack and, to be honest, would be FREAKIN' AWESOME! An ability that turns your everyday monk into a black beast of destruction? FTW!

Eldariel
2008-04-29, 06:17 PM
So can you use Fractional BAB or not? If not, SSN 10 is gonna set you back seriously. If yes, feel free to multiclass however you want. Anyways, that's the most important part for the build. Monk 2/USS 5/SSN 10 would be great by fractionals, but those numbers are horrible otherwise. Also, moving into a full BAB prestige or base class could be worth considering as you'll be pretty low on BAB. 3 below HD would be much more managable than 4-5 you'll have going fully partial BAB classes.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-29, 06:36 PM
I'm not quite sure what fractional BAB is, so it's probably not going to be allowed. As for going into something with a better BAB after SSN, I suppose it could be a good idea. I'm not exactly sure what class to take, though.

Talya
2008-04-29, 06:48 PM
I'm not quite sure what fractional BAB is, so it's probably not going to be allowed. As for going into something with a better BAB after SSN, I suppose it could be a good idea. I'm not exactly sure what class to take, though.

Fractional BAB let's classes with the same BAB stack.

So 2 cleric, 2 rogue have a BAB of 3 instead of 4, since both are 3/4 BAB.

Eldariel
2008-04-29, 06:51 PM
Fractional BAB is an alternative way to handle multiclassing BAB. Basically:

Class with low BAB gives you 0.5 BAB each level.
Class with medium BAB gives you 0.75 BAB each level.
Class with high BAB gives you 1 BAB each level.

For straight-classed characters, this makes no difference. Druid 4 still has BAB 3, Druid 20 BAB 15, Wizard 2 BAB 1, Wizard 20 BAB 10, Fighter 4 BAB 4 and Fighter 20 BAB 20, etc. However, for multiclasses characters, this means that instead of starting over, your 'unfinished BAB' is added to your past BAB and this you don't lose out for switching classes between the 'maxed BAB' (every 4 levels with medium BAB, every 2 levels with low BAB, every level with high), so:

Monk 2/Swordsage 5/SSN 9 has:
1 BAB from Monk
3 BAB from Swordsage
6 BAB from Shadow Sun Ninja

That's BAB 10, compared to Monk 16 with BAB 12. So you lose out on two points of BAB.

On contrary, by Fractional BAB, that's 1.5 BAB from Monk, 3.75 BAB from Swordsage and 6.75 BAB from Shadow Sun Ninja, for a total 12. So you have the same BAB as Monk 17. Basically, Fractional BAB is used to avoid penalizing characters for multiclassing on levels other than 'finished BAB'-levels (any level in a class that would not advance BAB the next level; for example, Monk 4 or Swordsage 4).

It's in D20SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/), so you can show it to your DM. Just ask your DM if that's ok; it's real nice to not screw combatants for multiclassing 3/4th BAB classes like Monk and Swordsage.

EDIT: My bad, can't find it in SRD. I could've sworn it was there too...

Talya
2008-04-29, 06:53 PM
If VoP was an option, I would certainly take it, but my group has had... experiences with VoP monks which I do not think they wish to repeat. I'm joining a preexisting game, so I'll be starting at 17th level. The reason I want to have levels in monk and not go straight swordsage/SSN is to get the full flurry as well as the flavor of a monk. I think I want to get a full 10 levels of SSN because, even if I don't sacrifice myself in a mad level-draining flurry, it gives me bonuses to attack and, to be honest, would be FREAKIN' AWESOME! An ability that turns your everyday monk into a black beast of destruction? FTW!

Technically, 1 monk and 10 SSN gives you maximum flurry of blows. At 17, you're well along, if you're worried about BAB, go either 4 monk, 3 unarmed swordsage, 10 SSN, or 3 monk, 4 swordsage, 10 SSN. If your DM allows fractional, it doesn't matter which combination for BAB purposes, they'll be the same as monk 17. (Which is 12.)

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-29, 06:53 PM
Alas, my group does not play with fractional BAB, although it does make sense. Perhaps after I finish all 10 levels of SSN, I'll get a few more levels of Swordsage and maybe fighter for the BAB and feats?

Talya
2008-04-29, 06:59 PM
Alas, my group does not play with fractional BAB, although it does make sense. Perhaps after I finish all 10 levels of SSN, I'll get a few more levels of Swordsage and maybe fighter for the BAB and feats?

I would skip fighter unless you take the superior unarmed strike feat. (and probably even then.) In any case, fighter doesn't really help your BAB unless it causes you to avoid taking the 1st, 5th, or 9th levels of a 3/4 BAB class.

Eldariel
2008-04-29, 07:00 PM
As Talya suggested, you may want to stop at Shadow Sun Ninja 8 if you don't have partial BAB; losing that extra point is real painful. Monk 4/SS 4/SSN 8/Fighter (or whatever) 4 would be 20th level build with 16 BAB. If you want to go SSN 10, you'll indeed want the last few levels in a full BAB class to avoid further BAB losses.

You may want to suggest Fractional BAB to your group. It makes perfect sense and the only reason it wasn't in PHB is that the developers didn't think of it in time for the release. It's really the only rational way to handle multiclass BAB.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-29, 07:04 PM
I would skip fighter unless you take the superior unarmed strike feat. (and probably even then.) In any case, fighter doesn't really help your BAB unless it causes you to avoid taking the 1st, 5th, or 9th levels of a 3/4 BAB class.

What book is superior unarmed strike from? I don't remember reading about it. On the BAB, I guess you're right. So, is there an easy way for unarmed melee people to boost their accuracy other than amulets of might fists (which are uber expensive)?

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-29, 07:06 PM
As much as it hurts to loose my ubercool dark beast of neg-level pwnage ability, you guys may be right. I'm probably going to need every ounce of BAB I can squeeze out of this build.

Talya
2008-04-29, 07:15 PM
What book is superior unarmed strike from? I don't remember reading about it. On the BAB, I guess you're right. So, is there an easy way for unarmed melee people to boost their accuracy other than amulets of might fists (which are uber expensive)?


Tome of Battle, conveniently.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-29, 07:18 PM
Tome of Battle, conveniently.

This intrigues me. I must go reread the book.

Eldariel
2008-04-29, 07:18 PM
Amulet of Natural Attacks (Savage Species). Unfortunately, that's one of the major issues with unarmed attacks; hitting takes effort and half BAB doesn't help the matter. Frankly, it's easiest just to get a daily Greater Magic Fang/Greater Magic Weapon (you're a Monk, both work) from your party caster. Get them a Pearl of Power III for it and they should be fine. You need to focus the ability you'll be using for attacks (likely Dex or Wis), that means focusing all your level ups to it, getting a book in it and getting a +6 item ASAP (or better, if available; Divine Agility is +10 Dex so if you can get that as a permanent or activatable item, you'll want one - same with CL 20 Owl's Insight for Wis - Owl's Wisdom is Insight, so it stacks with enhancement from normal item too). That'll help, especially with natural 18 in the stat. Also, your large number of attacks will come in handy; Pouncing Charge should help you a great deal. Of course, tactics, Flanking, etc. are all good too.

The 10th level of SSN is kinda cool, but since it's only 1/day, it may, or may not be worth it depending on your GM's style. If you fight one big encounter per day, it's definitely worth it (+4 to attacks with shadow? More than makes up for 1 lost point of BAB), but if you get 3-4 rather big ones, it'll be rather weak. Destroys BBEGs though.

Superior Unarmed Strike is, ironically, in Tome of Battle. Treat your unarmed attacks as a Monk of 4 levels higher (or get a progression if you have none); no HD limit so you could get level 20 Monk damage with 16 levels in Damage-advancing classes and Superior Unarmed Strike.


Again, talk to your GM about starting to use Fractional BAB. It makes more sense than normal, is simple enough and just helps the handicapped. He could very well come around and your entire group would be happier.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-29, 07:25 PM
I hadn't seen the Neclass of Natural Attacks before. That's really cool!

As for DM style. With this DM, it's hard to gauge. The types of encounters vary pretty widely from day to day.

The only really predictable thing about this guy's style is that he gives out minimal treasure. When I say minimal, I really mean it. In one of his campaigns we killed a decent sized dragon whose hoard conveniently consisted of only copper peices.

Other than that, he's a good DM, and I may be able to get him to see the reason in the fractional BAB system. I'm not counting on it, though.

The_Snark
2008-04-29, 07:33 PM
The Necklace of Natural Attacks is nice; hopefully your DM will allow it.

Incidentally, the reason the Amulet of Mighty Fists is so costly is that it enhances all natural attacks, no matter how many you have. Give it to a dragon, and it starts doing the work of five magic weapons. Give it to something like a hydra or a grell and it's effectively eleven or twelve. Give it to a monk, and... it's kind of wasted, actually.

If you only take Shadow Sun Ninja to 8, make sure to squeeze a third monk level in there somewhere, for the upgrade to Flurry of Blows. Unless you literally always use strikes, it's worth it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-04-29, 07:36 PM
Amulet of Natural Attacks really isn't all that useful, and it's a LOT more expensive than buying magic weapons. Besides, with Monk4, you get Ki Strike: Magic anyways, and Stone Dragon has a LOT of ways of negating DR.

To be honest, your best bet for gear is probably dex/wis enhancing stuff, then some method of obtaining Flight, then a Rod of Negation. Trust me, any melee class needs one on their belt in the event they run across the old Forcecage/Cloudkill combo (which, unfortunately, you would not be immune to since you don't have enough Monk levels).

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-29, 07:36 PM
If you only take Shadow Sun Ninja to 8, make sure to squeeze a third monk level in there somewhere, for the upgrade to Flurry of Blows. Unless you literally always use strikes, it's worth it.

True, Flurry is very cool.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-04-29, 07:38 PM
True, Flurry is very cool.

Only when paired with an ability to Pounce (Such as the Tiger Claw boost). Otherwise, all it takes is a simple move to negate it completely. Round Kick is another way to increase the number of kicks you dish out.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-29, 07:41 PM
I'll be getting pounce from Tiger claw. I'm not certain about snap kick. My attack bonus won't be amazing as is and I'm not sure if dropping it more will help me.

Eldariel
2008-04-29, 07:42 PM
I'd really focus on counters and boosts rather than Strikes, since on those levels, the unarmed attack routine of a full Flurry Monk is much better than most maneuvers. To that end, I'd probably focus your Swordsage-maneuvers much on Tiger Claw and Diamond Mind as those have a number of good boosts and counters respectively.

That's also why I consider piercing DR an issue; you generally want to flurry instead of using Mountain Hammer-line attacks as you'll have much higher chance of hitting few times (with your poor attack bonus) and a much higher average damage with those, but even with heavy damage (say, 50) per attack, DR 15 from all of them is soon going to prevent 100s points of damage.


If you can't have Fractional BAB, go:
Monk 4 (switch your Ki Strike (Magic) for Ki Strike (Holy) from Complete Champion; allows you to bypass DR/Good)
Unarmed SS 4
SSN 8
Whatever Full BAB 4 (starting from level 17) - could be some other ToB Prestige or just Fighter; few feats never hurt and you should really pick up Superior Unarmed Strike anyways to have full damage now (add Improved Natural Attack to deal unarmed damage as large, get size boosts when possible through Enlarge Person and whatever and voila, the difference becomes major).

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-29, 07:49 PM
I like your thinking Eldariel. Boosts work great with flurry. Other than Burning blade what boosts would you suggest?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-04-29, 07:59 PM
I like your thinking Eldariel. Boosts work great with flurry. Other than Burning blade what boosts would you suggest?

Tiger Claw has a whole bunch of good boosts. Fits well with Desert Wind too... Tyger,Tyger, Burning Bright...

I'd pick up a couple of 'situational' strikes, like the touch attack line from Diamond Mind for those pesky dragons, and I'd certainly suggest Mountain Tombstone Strike (2d6 Con damage), but on the whole, boosts and counters would be better for your build.

I suggest Snap Kick because if you're going to be doing a whole lot of full attacks, it's never a bad thing to have one extra attack at your full attack bonus. Think about it this way, you're trading your last attack (reducing it below the point where it can hit) for one extra at your highest, increasing your overall accuracy.

If you are really worried about it, grab Amulet of Natural Attacks +1, but don't get any more than that. Ironically, if you were a Warforged, you could enchant your body to be +1 Ghost Touch and be able to knock the stuff out of incorporeals too.

Chronos
2008-04-29, 08:17 PM
Whatever Full BAB 4 (starting from level 17) - could be some other ToB Prestige or just Fighter;Except that most of the ToB prestige classes are 3/4 BAB. You need spellcasting for Jade Phoenix Mage or Ruby Knight Vindicator, and Bloodstorm Blade is for throwing (and Throw Anything or not, most DMs will not let you throw your Unarmed Strike).

Eldariel
2008-04-29, 08:37 PM
Or Eternal Blade for overall kickass, pass any DR as Swift Action and did I mention kickass? You gotta be an Elf, but for a Dex character and with all the subraces, that's hardly a bad thing.

Mushroom: As said, Tiger Claw has good ones. Heck, if you decide to TWF with Unarmed Strikes (easy enough to justify and FAQ implies it could be possible, while not clearly saying it), you could use Dancing/Raging Mongoose for +2/+4 attacks quite easily. Seeing that you want Pouncing Charge anyways, you'll be quite deep in Tiger Claw to start with (use your SS maneuvers for that since SSN doesn't get Tiger Claw). Girallon Windmill Flesh Rip is a fine way to bypass DR and goes well with a Flurry-routine.


Desert Wind has the most boosts though, and you'll want to pick up some of the Burning Blade-line for all opponents not Fire-immune. Setting Sun is one of your SSN disciplines and has a lot of counters, so you'll want to utilize those too. That'd be about it. Diamond Mind has a few goodies too, most importantly Stance of Alacrity, but you don't really need those saves that much as your saves are already incredible (the 3 save-stats are your primary stats, and you have high progression in all saves from all classes). Don't neglect movement. Quicksilver Motion, Sudden Leap, Shadow Blink and so on are all great ways to set yourself up in combat, maybe make a Pouncing Charge and move 90' away with Quicksilver Motion, or some such. You're extremely mobile, so utilize that (and make sure you remain that way; one of normal monk's major issues is they can't properly combine their attack routine with their mobility. ToB fixes that, so just make sure to utilize the option).

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-29, 10:09 PM
Or Eternal Blade for overall kickass, pass any DR as Swift Action and did I mention kickass? You gotta be an Elf, but for a Dex character and with all the subraces, that's hardly a bad thing.

I agree. I have always liked elves and the extra dex would certainly empower my Weapon Finnesse/Shadow Blade.

Hmmm... a Monk/Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja/ Eternal Blade this is getting more complex by the post! Excellent!:smallbiggrin:

If I decided to add Eternal Blade to the mix, I would have to pick up Weapon Focus which would help a bit with my low Attack bonus.

I'll want to be in shadow Hand stances much of the time to get full use out of Shadow blade. I was thinking of using Assassin's Stance which, with flanking, flurry, and Dancing Mongoose would be pretty awesome. Are there any other good shadow hand stances I'm neglecting.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-29, 10:21 PM
I agree. I have always liked elves and the extra dex would certainly empower my Weapon Finnesse/Shadow Blade.

Hmmm... a Monk/Swordsage/Shadow Sun Ninja/ Eternal Blade this is getting more complex by the post! Excellent!:smallbiggrin:

If I decided to add Eternal Blade to the mix, I would have to pick up Weapon Focus which would help a bit with my low Attack bonus.

I'll want to be in shadow Hand stances much of the time to get full use out of Shadow blade. I was thinking of using Assassin's Stance which, with flanking, flurry, and Dancing Mongoose would be pretty awesome. Are there any other good shadow hand stances I'm neglecting.As a SS, you get Weapon Finess for free in certain weapons. Also, have you considered a Wild Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#wildElf)?

tyckspoon
2008-04-29, 10:25 PM
Almost all the Shadow Hand stances are good. Child of Shadow is a neat low-level one, although it doesn't match well with full attacks (barring any of various means to get a swift, free, or extra action move.) Dance of the Spider is a nice mobility choice for the mid levels, especially if the games you play in tend to spent a lot of time in caves and dungeons. Balance On The Sky is very nice, although high level.

asphen fox
2008-04-29, 10:36 PM
Actually... You would need full BAB to enter Eternal blade first....

Chronos
2008-04-29, 10:48 PM
Actually... You would need full BAB to enter Eternal blade first....So don't enter it first. Enter it after enough levels of Shadow Sun Ninja that you meet the BAB prereqs.

Eldariel
2008-04-30, 05:21 AM
As a SS, you get Weapon Finess for free in certain weapons. Also, have you considered a Wild Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#wildElf)?

Free Weapon Focus (benefits; should qualify you). Coincidently, Shadow Hand, Setting Sun and Tiger Claw all happen to have unarmed attacks as their Favoured Weapons, so go ahead and pick up any of those for Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike. You'll like the extra To Hit too.

I'd probably consider Snow Elf before any other variant. Hit to Charisma, bonus to Dex, overall awesome. I'd try to pick up the following stances, were I you:
Stance of Alacrity (just awesome)
Flame's Blessing (great for when you end up on the Elemental Plane of Fire, fighting a Balor or some such; 20 ranks in Tumble = immunity)
Balance in the Sky (overall fairly superb; free flight for the Empty Hand)
Hearing the Air (can be very handy against invisibles and all that)

Note that two of those are level 8 stances, and it'll be difficult to pick them both up, but it doesn't hurt to try. Levels that pick up Stances:
SS 5 (after SS 1 and 2)
SSN 5
Eternal Blade 5

It's unfortunate that they're all on such levels since it's tough to set those levels to be picked up when you have access to level 8 maneuvers. One way to do it would be to go SS 8, since Swordsage gets new stances on level 5 and 8.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-30, 08:36 AM
It's unfortunate that they're all on such levels since it's tough to set those levels to be picked up when you have access to level 8 maneuvers. One way to do it would be to go SS 8, since Swordsage gets new stances on level 5 and 8.

I'm not so sure about doing that because I don't want to loose my SSN 8 or my full flurry.

Snow Elf would be pretty awesome because the CHA drain doesn't really hurt that much. I think I like that better than the INT drain of Wild elf, because I hate Roleplaying low-Int PCs.

Now what about Feats? Other than Finness, Shadow blade, and probably a few Martial Studies, and probably Superior Unarmed strike, I'm not really sure. Should I dip into the Complete Warrior for some of the stunning fist boost feats?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-30, 04:23 PM
I'm not so sure about doing that because I don't want to loose my SSN 8 or my full flurry.

Snow Elf would be pretty awesome because the CHA drain doesn't really hurt that much. I think I like that better than the INT drain of Wild elf, because I hate Roleplaying low-Int PCs.

Now what about Feats? Other than Finness, Shadow blade, and probably a few Martial Studies, and probably Superior Unarmed strike, I'm not really sure. Should I dip into the Complete Warrior for some of the stunning fist boost feats?Snap Kick is a must for anyone with an unarmed progression.

Eldariel
2008-04-30, 04:29 PM
I'll repeat Sun School Tactical; you'll have access to Shadow Hand teleportation and with Snap Kick, you get two attacks out of one teleport (oh, and then full attack). Also, every Monk has Improved Natural Attack. Period.

There're a lot of options, but I don't think you'll be doing a lot of dipping since you're featstarved to start with. You'll probably want Robilar's Gambit eventually, given sufficient AC. Also, stay away from Martial Study unless absolutely necessary; you get a huge number of maneuvers to start with and you can't ready even half of them come level 17, so adding extra maneuvers to that just isn't worth it. Use those you've got first.

Also, you need Adaptive Style. Not only does it allow you to utilize your massive Maneuver-list in actual combat without being prepared, it allows you to recover all maneuvers in one turn. Don't forget that you'll want Superior Unarmed Strike for maximized Unarmed Damage now too (or Monk's Belt if you don't mind relying on equipment).

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-30, 07:55 PM
Sounds good!

I reread Snap Kick and Sun School Tactics and I think they would work well with this character.

A question on Sun School: If I use Inexorable Progress of Dawn, do I get to fire off the rest of my flurry on the guy I forced back?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-30, 08:02 PM
Sounds good!

I reread Snap Kick and Sun School Tactics and I think they would work well with this character.

A question on Sun School: If I use Inexorable Progress of Dawn, do I get to fire off the rest of my flurry on the guy I forced back?No, so it's best for use on your final iteratives, or when surrounded.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-30, 08:27 PM
Oh, I see. Ah well, It's still a nice feat.

Talya
2008-04-30, 08:50 PM
Much better than Circle Kick (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Circle_Kick,SF), not that circle kick itself is a terrible feat if you're going to get chances to full attack. Combined with Snap Kick and that tiger claw maneuver that gives you two extra attacks, you'd full attack for +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5. One more with haste.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-04-30, 08:54 PM
Much better than Circle Kick (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Circle_Kick,SF), not that circle kick itself is a terrible feat if you're going to get chances to full attack. Combined with Snap Kick and that tiger claw maneuver that gives you two extra attacks, you'd full attack for +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5. One more with haste.

Not bad... and, if I'm getting a +10 to damage from Dex, even better!

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-04-30, 08:54 PM
Much better than Circle Kick (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Circle_Kick,SF), not that circle kick itself is a terrible feat if you're going to get chances to full attack. Combined with Snap Kick and that tiger claw maneuver that gives you two extra attacks, you'd full attack for +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5. One more with haste.:smallconfused: How does that work, exactly? I'm seeing way to many ways to cheese that out. Diamond Mind maneuver for 2 full attacks+2 enemies that are within the are you threaten+Snap Kick+Flurry=12 attacks, with each successful attack cascading.:smalleek: How has that not been broken by CharOp yet?

Talya
2008-04-30, 10:16 PM
:smallconfused: How does that work, exactly? I'm seeing way to many ways to cheese that out.

Yes. And you're cheesing out what is essentially ...and even with only 2 levels, primarily a monk build. Which is all kinds of awesome.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-04-30, 10:29 PM
:smallconfused: How does that work, exactly? I'm seeing way to many ways to cheese that out. Diamond Mind maneuver for 2 full attacks+2 enemies that are within the are you threaten+Snap Kick+Flurry=12 attacks, with each successful attack cascading.:smalleek: How has that not been broken by CharOp yet?

Shadow Hand feat that lets you add Dex bonus to damage with Shadow Hand weapons, including unarmed...