PDA

View Full Version : Lavos vs Evangelion



Frosty
2008-05-01, 05:56 PM
How much of a challenge would a fully-mature Lavos be to an EVA unit?

Assume that the Lavos has burried into the earth 65 million years ago, shortly after First Impact in the Evangelion universe. Now, in 2015, it appears somewhere in Tokyo-3. and the EVAs have to fight it. Assume for the moment that Unit 01 has an S2 engine, and replacement power cables are easily found (this /is/ NERV headquarters after all). Also assume that both Shinji and Asuka are (relatively) stable for this emotionally speaking, or at leat as good as they were gonna be given the series.

This Lavos does NOT have the genetic materials for Adam or Lilith for some reason, and is trying to breach the Geo-Front so it can get to Terminal Dogma to gain the genetic material.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-01, 06:03 PM
I...

Buh...

Wha...

A versus thread that actually makes thematic sense?! What has Science done?!

Back after I nerd it up over on Wikipedia for a bit.

UglyPanda
2008-05-01, 06:10 PM
Evangelion, for sure. The Epoch was about four times the size of a van and it managed to blow a massive hole into him and skip a dozen mini-bosses by crashing into him. The Evas are much, much bigger. Also, Lavos lacks a way to penetrate AT fields. The Evas can win by attrition that way.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 06:14 PM
For the purposes of this thread, this particular Lavos is much bigger than the one in the CT world. Assume that this Lavos is about 1.5 times as big as an Angel at least, and weighs maybe 3.5 times as much as an EVA unit.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 06:16 PM
Evangelion, for sure. The Epoch was about four times the size of a van and it managed to blow a massive hole into him and skip a dozen mini-bosses by crashing into him. The Evas are much, much bigger. Also, Lavos lacks a way to penetrate AT fields. The Evas can win by attrition that way.

You don't know for sure that Lavos doesn't somehow have the genetic material from OTHER Angels.

UglyPanda
2008-05-01, 06:39 PM
For the purposes of this thread, this particular Lavos is much bigger than the one in the CT world. Assume that this Lavos is about 1.5 times as big as an Angel at least, and weighs maybe 3.5 times as much as an EVA unit.

Lavos isn't scaled particularly well. In the first stage of the boss battle, he's twice the size of the epoch. In the second stage, he's the size of a building, and in the bad ending, Lavos is the size of one of the domed cities.

Terraoblivion
2008-05-01, 06:48 PM
And that is not to even go into the strange scale of the world he is infesting itself.

No matter what i think i'll hand this one to Evangelion, at least if all three models are active at the time and neither Shinji nor Asuka has broken completely down yet. They seem to be able to withstand a point blank explosion of roughly the same scale as the dinokiller meteor that hit Yucatan all those millions of years ago if the size of the crater that develops when the orbital bombardment angle drops. Lavos might manage to pretty much destroy the world first though.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 07:02 PM
They're not broken at the beginning of the fight, but don't forget, Lavos has an area ttack that inflicts the "Confusion" status on all party members. He usually uses it after Destruction from the Heavens. That can sort of represent a psychological attack on Shinji and Asuka. Rei is probably immune.

And the real question is: Can the EVAs stop Lavos before Lavos reaches Terminal Dogma?

EvilElitest
2008-05-01, 07:05 PM
I...

Buh...

Wha...

A versus thread that actually makes thematic sense?! What has Science done?!

No it can't be. My brain. The glasses/goggles do nothing. There is no god
from
EE

Frosty
2008-05-01, 07:06 PM
There is no god

But there is Shinji.

Terraoblivion
2008-05-01, 07:08 PM
Which is much, much worse than there being a god. At least gods are supposed to be vastly more intelligent and typically also more emotionally stable than the average human. Shinji is neither...

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-01, 07:19 PM
Okay...before we begin, let's have a look at our contenders:

Evangelion Units 00-02
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83xalQm32AI

This is the kind of hurt they dish out when the writers are forcing the pilots to behave for once, and doesn't feature 01 going berserk. Yeah, it's from a video game, but I like that video game series more than the show, so nyah.

The Eva-scale katana...might not be canon, though.

Lavos, the Giant Space Flea from Nowhere
Stages 0 and 1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUgdufHCZ44
Stages 2 and 3 (long) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmWqOAH5y74

First, let's be clear. I think big L is probably enough of a tank to shrug off conventional or N2 weaponry, given that he survives a hasty counterattack from the 1999 humans, so let's discount an artillery barrage softening him up.

As we can see, Lavos is a slow starter, but he's tough. Even if he hasn't acquired a manifest AT Field from Angels 3-17 (or the Evas themselves?), it'll take some doing to punch through his armor. Meanwhile, Destruction is Raining from the Heavens. Personally? I think AT Fields are hax enough that the Eva units can survive close combat. Tokyo-3 is probably boned from the collateral damage, but what else is new? I give Round 1 to Team Schizotypal; they'll break through eventually, particularly since Lavos can't dodge or regen like most Angels.

After that, the comparatively good guys have to deal with the Lavos core. They might get weirded out by the fact that it's a big mean-looking Unit 00, but not that much (look at their canon opponents). Humanoid!Lavos has some nasty attacks in addition to its weapons, such as Stop (!) and the ability to nullify magical defenses (!), and that's before things start getting trippy. It becomes a matter of whoever's been sortied focusing fire on the thing before it smacks them down. Or until it smacks them down, Shinji freaks out and Yui ****ing dismembers the thing.

Fundamentally, I think that the Eva team stands a good chance here. They can just get close and tear into the thing, and if all else fails, Unit 01 can go clobberin' time.

Tengu
2008-05-01, 07:20 PM
Crono's gang defeated Lavos because they had Robo. Robo possesses a Rocket Punch attack and is therefore a super robot, standing higher in hierarchy than Evas (who are also super robots, but don't have this attack) - which makes him more powerful than them. Thus, Lavos would probably win.

Okay, actually I think the kids would win here, especially since Lavos is not protected by an AT field. But you cannot like Robo too much. Unless you like him more than Frog, I mean - I dare you to find a more badass antropomorphic animal than Frog.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-01, 07:30 PM
Actually, I just thought of one very important caveat:

Lavos rises from his place deep within the Earth, digging his way back out through miles of molten and solid rock...crashing straight into the bottom of the GeoFront, erupting into Terminal Dogma
Lavos: Yo.
Lilith: ...
NERV: Oh crap we didn't think of that.
Angels: Oh crap why didn't we think of that?
Shinji: ****
Asuka: <****>
Rei: ...
Rocks fall everyone dies


Now, assuming that's not the case...how exactly is the-second-best-Tick-ever moving toward Terminal Dogma along the surface? We don't really see the fully mature one move. Like at all.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 07:31 PM
I don't think Lavos can focus his highest class attacks to penetrate an AT Field... I mean I know he can put out a LOT of damage, but.. do we know if he can concentrate it? 'cause if a measly N2 mine can damage Angels through a Field (AKA the twin episode), then the rain of destruction can.

EvilElitest
2008-05-01, 07:32 PM
But there is Shinji.

I was going to go for Neizhce, but i'll accept that

Also Frosty, are you a boy or a girl? out of curiosity
from
EE

Koji
2008-05-01, 07:34 PM
The scale Lavos was on during the boss fight means that an eva could step on him.

If he was on an evangelion scale, they'd probably stand a pretty good chance, since they are mostly protected from ranged attacks and Lavos can't really move around or anything.

Tengu
2008-05-01, 07:38 PM
Also Frosty, are you a boy or a girl? out of curiosity


Listen to the youtube links in his sig. He's either a boy or a girl with a very guyish-sounding voice.

Devin
2008-05-01, 07:39 PM
It was worth watching that entire Eva video just to see the attack at the end.

They even had the timer.

And I'm throwing in with the "comparatively good guys" for this one. If they can hunt it down and attack it, that is. If Lavos has mysteriously gained the ability to burrow into Central Dogma, I don't know how it's going to go.

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-05-01, 07:42 PM
No matter what i think i'll hand this one to Evangelion, at least if all three models are active at the time and neither Shinji nor Asuka has broken completely down yet. They seem to be able to withstand a point blank explosion of roughly the same scale as the dinokiller meteor that hit Yucatan all those millions of years ago if the size of the crater that develops when the orbital bombardment angle drops. Lavos might manage to pretty much destroy the world first though.
Do you have any idea where I could find pictures of the crater in question?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-01, 07:50 PM
It was worth watching that entire Eva video just to see the attack at the end.

They even had the timer.You have no idea how good seeing that attack used on an MP Eva (skip to the end, or don't) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLKzzUjPOYw) made me feel. I don't care that it makes no sense.

Actually, I like that video better in terms of quality, but it lacks Teh Rei. Well, it lacks Unit 00, anyway.

Terraoblivion
2008-05-01, 07:52 PM
I'm afraid not. It blows the entire city up though. And the previous bits it had dropped looked quite enormous as well. I mean so large that they could be seen on a satellite photo taken from far enough away that the entire contour of India was visible. And it is said in the episode that if it lands on the right spot it will blow a canal right through Honshu. So i'd say it is quite powerful.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 07:59 PM
Sounds like EVAs are everyones' favorite here.

Ok, new conditions. Lavos can move, but relatively slowly. About as slowly as the octahedron angel, 5th Angel Ramiel. The 22 layers of Special Plating defending the Geo-Front are not there, due to a previous angel attack blowing thru them all. Also, only one EVA is operational. Pick which one.

Unit 01 Berserk is pretty cool looking even in video games: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YANcvG8G9lA

Terraoblivion
2008-05-01, 08:09 PM
If we are to pick a single one there is no question. Unit 01 with Shinji in it, is just completely superior to the other two in all ways. It is even recognized as such by the characters in the show. Also it is the only one that has the ability to go berserk on the actual enemy and not just at random. The only real challenge would be Unit 02 after Asuka realizes that it is her mother, but even compared to that i'd say Unit 01.

Also my money is still on the single Eva unit if it is deployed properly. These things are just so incredibly durable and can seemingly create matter out of nothing when they go berserk. So i'd say Unit 01 with Shinji in it will defeat Lavos by itself.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-01, 08:36 PM
I dunno. My fanboyishness over that part of the movie makes me want to see what happens when we send out Unit 02 with a Prog Knife and 3.5 minutes of battery power. If nothing else, she'll make it bleed a lot.

But yeah, Unit 01 + S2 Engine + Crying for mommy = big explosions.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 08:45 PM
So i'd say Unit 01 with Shinji in it will defeat Lavos by itself.

Is this an expression more of how Lavos sucks or how kickass Shinji's mother is?

Terraoblivion
2008-05-01, 08:50 PM
It is an expression of how Unit 01 is pretty much a walking, psychotic deus ex machina. I mean it goes way, way, WAY beyond what it is supposed to do according to design specifications and then just shrugs it off when it goes berserk. I am not sure what could actually defeat it.

The city would be toast in the fight though, but really when isn't it? That city gets destroyed on a near daily basis, i wonder why anybody would want to live there.

Frosty
2008-05-01, 10:52 PM
Ahh so it's Berserker that defeats Lavos, not EVA 01 itself. So if we switch the pilot from Shinji to Dummy Plug, the fight might be more even?

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-01, 11:21 PM
Fight goes to Lavos over the dummy plug on the basis that 1) dummy plugs are by definition mooks, if skilled ones and 2) some things are just too horrible to ever root for.

Sorry. I get a little intense about this show, as my feelings on it are divided equally between love and hate. Now that you've got me thinking about it again, I might be a little mood-swingy.

Infinity_Biscuit
2008-05-01, 11:26 PM
I'm afraid not. It blows the entire city up though. And the previous bits it had dropped looked quite enormous as well. I mean so large that they could be seen on a satellite photo taken from far enough away that the entire contour of India was visible. And it is said in the episode that if it lands on the right spot it will blow a canal right through Honshu. So i'd say it is quite powerful.
Well, the Chixculub crater is 180km across, which is wider than the island of Honshu at all but the very thickest point, it could be the case, assuming it is supposed to be a circular crater, and not, say, a very elliptical one.

thubby
2008-05-01, 11:27 PM
shinji is mentally stable, eva can't win.

Rutee
2008-05-01, 11:29 PM
While I agree that the Berserker could beat Lavos, let's not overrate it.

It can't even overwrite Trombe.. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=014YRFIlMJ8) Hardly Deus Ex.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-02, 12:22 AM
Well that's hardly fair, Rutee. Trombe! only bows to the very finest in ballet music. Some peppy jazz-pop ditty about suicide's got no chance.

Bleen
2008-05-02, 12:36 AM
Can Lavos use its Deus Ex Machina Cosmic Entity Time Travel powers? WE WENT OVER THIS. Power over time is an 'I win' button!

*Still wants his Lavos vs. Giygas thread. Grumble.* :smallannoyed:

Fri
2008-05-02, 12:50 AM
As usual, I'm rootin for the underdog. But not without reason.

Lavos is... a planet destroyer. Eva haven't fought any planet destroyer in the series. But dangit, how big is lavos? I always imagined that it's at least as big as a city.

Hm, epoch was able to pierce the outer shell, but lavos withstand a world wide attack in the 99s.

Even if the evas managed to hack lavos to bits, not just tokyo 3, but the earth would be doomed first.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 12:52 AM
The Trombe thing made me laugh hard.

Tengu
2008-05-02, 01:09 AM
They stopped instrumentality by beating the crap out of EVA 01! Cool! It's as if someone made a game about Jesus Christ, turned it into an action game a'la God of War, and the final stage consisted of Jesus beating the crap out of legions of Roman soldiers using the holy cross, with Pontius Pilate in a burning, flying chariot as the final boss.

(This post might auto-destruct if asked to, due to the religion parts.)

streakster
2008-05-02, 01:13 AM
They stopped instrumentality by beating the crap out of EVA 01! Cool! It's as if someone made a game about Jesus Christ, turned it into an action game a'la God of War, and the final stage consisted of Jesus beating the crap out of legions of Roman soldiers using the holy cross, with Pontius Pilate in a burning, flying chariot as the final boss.

(This post might auto-destruct if asked to, due to the religion parts.)

As a Christian...

I. Want. That. Game.

Seriously.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-02, 01:15 AM
Me, I just want a translated SRW Alpha 3. And yes, the whole level is pretty much Bright-slapping Shinji out of "destroy the world" mode. It looks glorious.

As usual, I'm rootin for the underdog. But not without reason.

Lavos is... a planet destroyer. Eva haven't fought any planet destroyer in the series. But dangit, how big is lavos? I always imagined that it's at least as big as a city.

Hm, epoch was able to pierce the outer shell, but lavos withstand a world wide attack in the 99s.

Even if the evas managed to hack lavos to bits, not just tokyo 3, but the earth would be doomed first.
I'd like to point out that Evangelions are designed to fight things that shrug off the payload equivalent of tactical nukes...but that's down to the show's specific wizard-did-it technobabble, really. Although with a properly motivated (or unconscious) pilot, Evas can withstand the same kind of damage, which is something to consider.

If Lavos's intent is to nuke the world, they probably can't stop it. If all it wants right now is OM NOM NOM DELICIOUS ANGEL GENES (which will probably for some reason wipe out humanity anyway), I'd say there's a chance to kill it before it finishes things.

Oslecamo
2008-05-02, 08:05 AM
Technically, they didn't defeat him, they just brought him back to control of his Eva, wich means he know is ready to unleash some classic berseker pwnage.

Lavos probably can't beat the evas as they're just too ex machina, but can probably blow up NERV and the rest of the world, since nobody is expecting an attack from below.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 08:48 AM
If I had to place bets, I'd say Lavos' first two forms go down, hard. They're just too weak compared to the Evas.

The third form, however...that's trickier. Considering how lame tacticians the pilots are, odds are the right bit will be left untouched as the center bit is attacked relentlessly, reviving time and time again. However, the center bit has pretty powerful attacks, what with Grand Stone being dangerous to characters with maxed defense and 999 HP, so I think that the third form would win through insane attrition, even against a berserk 01.

Rutee
2008-05-02, 09:46 AM
I don't think so, Azerian. This is a game 8 year olds beat. I sincerely doubt that the Right Bit wouldn't get targetted in a normal fight. Now, Berserker on the other hand... hm. It's basically Shinji's Mom.. Hm.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 10:16 AM
Rutee, my first time beating Chrono Trigger, I spent most of the time beating up the Center Bit, killing it once, rejoicing, and then watch in horror as the Core revived the Center and Left Bits.

Seriously. IIRC, the Core actually heals the Center Bit from time to time, lending more credence to the illusion that the Center Bit is the important thing to attack. The EVA kids, never having played the game because it doesn't exist in their world, may just waste a ton of time killing the Center bit and then learn from watching it revive a few times.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 10:42 AM
And of course, all of that is considering the right bit is actually nonsentient and cannot plan. Since this is a SNES game we're talking about, we cannot know, but if the right bit can move and think, then Lavos simply wins. The right bit could just go to the ocean, drop to the ocean floor, and revive the center bit as needed until it wins.

Terraoblivion
2008-05-02, 10:45 AM
That would be the most awesome game ever. It needs more ominous Latin chanting though. Everything becomes better with ominous Latin chanting and when it takes place in Roman times in a Roman province it even makes sense, more so when you think about how ominous Latin chanting is based on Christian monastic traditions.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-02, 10:54 AM
And of course, all of that is considering the right bit is actually nonsentient and cannot plan. Since this is a SNES game we're talking about, we cannot know, but if the right bit can move and think, then Lavos simply wins. The right bit could just go to the ocean, drop to the ocean floor, and revive the center bit as needed until it wins.I would assume there's some kind of range limit on that...and even an upper limit on how far the bits and core can separate, considering they're part of the same organism. I also think they'll probably only show up after all Lavos's defenses have been beaten through, because that's apparently how biology works for Square bosses.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 10:55 AM
http://www.legaljuice.com/objection%20court%20out%20of%20order%20lawyer%20at torney%20object.jpg

Latin chanting has nothing on mass mad growling! Specially when coupled with good guitar or saxophone.

Also, flute orchestra is a good substitute.

Terraoblivion
2008-05-02, 11:05 AM
Yeah, bosses in Square games work on no readily comprehensible biology seemingly spawning parts out of nowhere when they are heavily beat up. So i doubt Lavos could hide any part of his third form under the sea without dragging the rest of the third form there as well.

But Latin chanting would fit and is a classic, Azerian ;_;

Frosty
2008-05-02, 11:07 AM
http://www.legaljuice.com/objection%20court%20out%20of%20order%20lawyer%20at torney%20object.jpg

Latin chanting has nothing on mass mad growling! Specially when coupled with good guitar or saxophone.

Also, flute orchestra is a good substitute.

This is a fight possibly involving a Berserk Eva. Trust me. There WILL be mad growling involved.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 11:09 AM
Yep, Square bosses work like that. But notice I never mentioned forms one and two, and it's because those two will lose, hard. ONCE form three spawns, the right bit goes to the ocean, not before.


Now, on the subject of music...Mozart's pieces are masterpieces, but they still have nothing on Freebird and Stairway to heaven. Same thing here.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-02, 11:16 AM
I still think the group of bits has to stick around together. And the Eva pilots are moronic teenagers, but none of them is quite so dumb as to let a third of the monster wander off and potentially capture their flag while they're fighting the other two thirds. If nothing else, I'm assuming support from NERV, and Misato isn't that dumb (on duty). If Lavos does and can split up, though, it might require a second Eva to hold both fronts.

Also not that Tokyo-3 is located inland, or at least as inland as you can get in post-Second Impact Japan (It's this little redneck mountain town after some development) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakone%2C_Kanagawa). It's got a way to go to get to anything deeper than a largish lake.

No offense to anyone from Hakone, I just felt like quoting South Park the movie.

Fanatic-Templar
2008-05-02, 11:40 AM
Something to consider is that even if the EVAs resist, Lavos can easily destroy the city, NERV HQ and probably the country with only collateral damage. And once that's gone, the EVAs only have a short battery time. So while they probably tear through Lavos's first two forms, Lavos needs only wait until they deactivate before lowering the right bit's defense for his Active Life.

Also, supposing Defensive Seal neutralises the AT-Field, Lavos can bring about some pretty potent attacks to bear. If nothing else, Dark Moon arbitrarily halves all opponents' life.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 12:03 PM
Something to consider is that even if the EVAs resist, Lavos can easily destroy the city, NERV HQ and probably the country with only collateral damage. And once that's gone, the EVAs only have a short battery time. So while they probably tear through Lavos's first two forms, Lavos needs only wait until they deactivate before lowering the right bit's defense for his Active Life.

Also, supposing Defensive Seal neutralises the AT-Field, Lavos can bring about some pretty potent attacks to bear. If nothing else, Dark Moon arbitrarily halves all opponents' life.

Well, Unit 00 and 02 may go silent, but 01 has an S2 engine. 02 also has a chance (if slim) to go Berserk.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 12:29 PM
All in all, this falls to Lavos' battle behavior. We know the eva pilots are morons with lots of firepower, so the question is how Lavos reacts. If he descends to THEIR level of stupidity, he'll lose because he has less instant power. If he plays like a sneaky bastard, he'll win because he has more durability.

Terraoblivion
2008-05-02, 12:37 PM
That sounds like pretty much it, Azerian. Though if he manages to press Shinji to such a point that Shinji's mom goes berserk on him Lavos is in trouble unless he manages to hide the true core somewhere. All in all i still think that Eva has the best chance of winning this. Especially if the smarter people in mission control can instruct them and keep them updated with useful information.

black dragoon
2008-05-02, 01:12 PM
I'm swining to the Eva camp on this. To be honest I really think Rei may at least get the fact they beating up the wrong bit. Shinji on the other hand...yeah.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 01:35 PM
If he plays like a sneaky bastard.

Elaborate plz?

ZeroNumerous
2008-05-02, 02:00 PM
Well, Unit 00 and 02 may go silent, but 01 has an S2 engine. 02 also has a chance (if slim) to go Berserk.

Regardless of whether 02 goes berserk, it still has 5 minutes of power since it lacks an S2 Engine.

As for who would win, I'm gonna say EVA 01 is gonna win. Why? Because it is, for all intents and purposes, an Angel. S2 Engine? Check. Regeneration? Check. Insanely over-the-top power? Check. Lavos goes down hard, regardless of what it intends to do. As for the Third Form, well.. Who's saying Shinji's mom doesn't just crush both small bits first, then go after the big juicy part--appetizers before your meal and all, ya know?

Terraoblivion
2008-05-02, 02:04 PM
Even before Unit 01 eats that angel and gets the S2 engine it was able to act after power ran out if it went berserk. Unless it was revealed in one of the tons of side material that explains things happening in the series, i see no reason why it would be different for Unit 02. However, in any case i very much think that Shinji's mom will be able to just crush Lavos if given the chance.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 02:11 PM
Unit 02 ran outta power fighting the Mass-produced EVA series. A while later, it still managed to move on its own accord when it went into Berserker mode.

Behold_the_Void
2008-05-02, 03:26 PM
I'm gonna have to side with Team Eva on this. Lavos is potent, but the amount of support and the structure of NERV and Tokyo 3 which is specifically designed to withstand that kind of high-intensity attack will ensure that the Evangelion pilots get the appropriate intel to smash through all of Lavos' forms. Failing all else, mommy can tear it to shreds.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 03:36 PM
And then what? Unit 01 eats the Lavos Core and gains the genetic material of...oh dear. :smalleek:

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 03:45 PM
Elaborate plz?

Basically, if he plays like he has done in the background, AKA causing an insane evolutionary jump with humans and using them as puppets to destroy the reptites, brainwashing queen Zeal, and all the Chrono cross jazz which is a mindscrew bigger than Eva's. Hence my idea of him hiding the right bit on the ocean floor.

If he plays according to the limited pattern we see in-battle, yeah, he loses. Hard.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 03:59 PM
I wonder why he was so brilliant all those other times and then so stupidonce the heros show up.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-02, 04:07 PM
Well, Lavos wasn't expecting to be interrupted during his big show by people with enough individual power to take him in a fight. I mean, he'd just killed one of them a few millenia ago, for God's sake. Lavos is a canny strategic manipulator, but a pretty straightforward fighter, I think is the difference. How often has he even needed to do more than laser someone once, anyway?

Frosty
2008-05-02, 04:23 PM
Well, technically Lavos killed a doll, not a person in 12,000 BC.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-02, 04:27 PM
Well, my point is that Lavos thought he had vaporized him. Fairly easily. And he did, in fact, pack enough of a punch to do so, as the unchanged timeline shows.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 04:41 PM
To be fair, Ocean Palace Lavos is much stronger than normal Lavos.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-02, 04:47 PM
But is that for any solid reason, or just because it's a Hopeless Boss Fight (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HopelessBossFight) that leads to a Plotline Death (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotlineDeath)?

Frosty
2008-05-02, 04:59 PM
The way I see it, the OP is the seat of Lavos's power. That's his home turf, so of course he's much stronger there, drawing upon the power of the Mammoth machine and all that.

UglyPanda
2008-05-02, 06:49 PM
It's not hopeless, you just screw up causality if you kill it and then get sent to game developer land. Ocean Palace Lavos doesn't have a first stage, so it used the leftover power for something useful i.e. buffing up the form that matters.

Does anyone actually attack Lavos once he shows up in the bad ending? He just appears and fire rains down on everyone. Anyone else think it's odd that 2300 AD features no tanks and the most common robot is designed for killing rats?

Matar
2008-05-02, 07:53 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but can't Eva's survive direct blasts from nukes?

But, guys. Guys guys guys. You are forgetting the main point here.

Big-O beats them all. >_>.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 08:55 PM
Nah. That's a universal Spirit Bomb. Also known as Anime's biggest I Win button.

Matar
2008-05-02, 09:29 PM
Nah. That's a universal Spirit Bomb. Also known as Anime's biggest I Win button.

I have a feeling I should know what your talking about, but I seriously have no idea >_>

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 09:41 PM
If you ever watched Dragon Ball, you'll know Goku's meanest attack was the Spirit bomb, which involves taking a bit of energy from every being on Earth, and was unequaled, defeating foes left and right.

Well, in the end of Dragon Ball GT, Goku was facing an incarnation of Shen Long known as the One star dragon. The guy was so crazily tough, he survived being pummelled by what could be called a Super Saiyan level 5. So, Goku took some energy from all of the universe, and used that to slay it.

If you can think of any other attack that can leech from the universe AND blow it up, you're welcomed to tell me. But for all intents and purposes, the universal Spirit Bomb is Anime's Epic magic.

Matar
2008-05-02, 09:44 PM
O.O

Um, well... um...

There has to be *something* out there that can top that, Anime wise >_>

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-02, 10:01 PM
I've looked up Gao Gai Gar, and even THAT falls short. The super hammer WILL destroy the universe, yes, but not immediately, and it certainly doesn't leech off of it.

Rutee
2008-05-02, 10:27 PM
Ideon nukes the universe.

And Laharl can blow up a universe /casually/. And he's not even the most powerful Overlord. I'm still unaware of anything short of Q-like omnipotence that comes close to pretty much every named Overlord.

Frosty
2008-05-02, 10:36 PM
Speaking of which, do you think the EVAs can take on Ideon?

Rutee
2008-05-02, 10:48 PM
No. They'd get smoked. Hard. Berserker 01 included. Unless it's SRW, where they probably could. Ideon breaks planets casually. While not the upper end of anime, I'm pretty sure that's beyond the scope of an AT Field.

Matar
2008-05-02, 11:14 PM
Out of sheer curiousity. If someone *did* manage to leach off say oh, 10% of all the energy in our universe, how much power would that be?

>_>.

Or maybe a...

FALCON PUNCH!!! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=FFtw7qW7Vcw)

Rutee
2008-05-02, 11:16 PM
A literally immeasurable amount. I'm not being cute and trying to say it's above our understanding. It might be. I'm just saying there's no way to know, because you'd have to measure all of that energy.

Matar
2008-05-02, 11:18 PM
We have people here who measure the total number of people in Saurons army, and who make things that can blow up planets using physics in DnD. And your telling me no one here will even take a guess using our limited understanding?

>_>

Rutee
2008-05-02, 11:23 PM
Measuring Sauron's army in precise terms is either easy or impossible. Either a precise number is listed, a precise formula is listed that you can use to derive it, or it can't be done.

Killing a planet with physics is relatively easy.

You're asking for an estimation of a number we can't measure, full stop :P

Matar
2008-05-02, 11:26 PM
Well, all that really matters is if the power level is OVER 9000!!!!

^ That would be all of my post, srsly, if I wasn't worried about spam. Er, ANYHO!

Big-O Vs Eva anyone? Anyone?

Frosty
2008-05-02, 11:28 PM
No. They'd get smoked. Hard. Berserker 01 included. Unless it's SRW, where they probably could. Ideon breaks planets casually. While not the upper end of anime, I'm pretty sure that's beyond the scope of an AT Field.

Is Ideon that final boss in SRW alpha3? The one that does like 10 damage to some of your Supers with his planet-destroying move? That wimp? Can it even break your AT-field if you Defend?

Oooh...Here's a fun image. Non-berserk EVA vs multiple Psycho Gundam mkIIs

Rutee
2008-05-02, 11:34 PM
That would be Kaiser Ephes. Super Robots are taking 10 damage because of the Invincibility Seishin, which reduces the damage of the next hit you take down to 10 (Notice that the same was happening to the few hits that Berserk 01 was landing). All dodges, doubtless, are from Alert, which guarantees a dodge. I haven't played @3, but if it's like OG2, R, or J, without Invincibility, Kaiser Ephes would be Eating Super Robots Alive. The years have not been kind to Armor as a defense. They are also not kind to Bosses; SRW mechanics make the boss /itself/ trivial, because of Seishin.

Effectively, every attacker can guarantee the ability to nullify the boss' counter. Or nearly, anyway. Alert, Guard (On a unit with a good forcefield) and Invincibility are pretty much GG for bosses. You just have to kill it before you run out of SP.

And Kaiser Ephes is far more powerful then the Ideon, incidentally. Balmar's Fleets, besides the 7th Expeditionary (Which was the one in OG1) are, in general, crazy powerful. Balmar probably compares favorably to the IoM, in fluff.


Oooh...Here's a fun image. Non-berserk EVA vs multiple Psycho Gundam mkIIs
Uh. Psycho Gundams. :P

Frosty
2008-05-02, 11:55 PM
Really? I'd give it to the EVa. But then, I base my image of Gundams off of what I see in SRW games. Not very impressive. Amuro and Camille pwned them all.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-03, 02:43 AM
We have people here who measure the total number of people in Saurons army, and who make things that can blow up planets using physics in DnD. And your telling me no one here will even take a guess using our limited understanding?

>_>The Universe is either infinite or large enough that it's immeasurable by current human technology. So, the energy contained in it is either infinite, or a portion of an unknown and currently unknowable number. 10% of an infinite value is another infinite value (effectively the same one, mathematically speaking). 10% of an unknown number is a non-answer.

In short, 10% of all energy in the Universe is either:
a) An infinite amount of energy or
b) A number we cannot analyze with our current level of understanding and observational technology.

I lean towards a), personally.

GoC
2008-05-03, 12:44 PM
O.O

Um, well... um...

There has to be *something* out there that can top that, Anime wise >_>

Gurren Lagan could probably destroy it if it really is galaxy sized. It'd simply swallow the entire universe into a massive black hole.

Nerd-o-rama. From Wikipedia:410^69 J, the estimated total mass-energy of the universe[13]
Divide by 10 to get 10%.

Matar
2008-05-03, 01:30 PM
You're asking for an estimation of a number we can't measure, full stop :P


You're asking for an estimation of a number we can't measure, full stop :P


estimation of a number we can't measure


estimation


Nerd-o-rama. From Wikipedia:410^69 J, the estimated total mass-energy of the universe[13]
Divide by 10 to get 10%.

Called it >_>.

I demand ether a Loli or a cookie for being correct on this matter! XD

Rutee
2008-05-03, 01:36 PM
Really? I'd give it to the EVa. But then, I base my image of Gundams off of what I see in SRW games. Not very impressive. Amuro and Camille pwned them all.

Well.. even there, you can't just automatically hand it to Evas; Remember that Amuro and Camille are ridiculously skilled compared to the Eva Pilots, whom pretty much have to rely on the brute force of their mecha (Possible exception of Asuka)

I'm going off other depictiosn of the Psycho Gundma. It's not quite Devil Gundam-level, but.. it's pretty far up there.

Incidentally, the Devil Gundam can probably smoke Berserk 01, due to the difficulty in destroying it completely, and that was for people who knew /exactly/ what to do.

And, I mentioned the Evas could take the Ideon in SRW for two major reasons;
1: Power Creep, Power Seep. The Ideon's planet buster doesn't OHKO enemies that a Macross Missile Massacre can /dent/. Most units are equalized a bit to put them on comparable terms.
2: Seishin. Like I said, SRW isn't kind to bosses. Invincible/Alert and just keep attacking til it dies. And then you die too, because the Ideon's destruction triggers a universe meltdown :P

Reasons 1 and 2 are also why I said the Nadesico gang could very, very easily take down Berserk 01. It's just a matter of running down its EN, or brutalizing it with Field Lancers (Which, since they have the barrier piercing tag, ignore AT Fields just as easily as they do Distortion Fields)

Outside of SRW, not a chance. If nothing else, nuke Earth. Assuming an AT Field can survive that (I'm not entirely convinced, obviously), you find the Evas run out of power in 5 minutes. And they're not equipped to travel in space, which they're now in.

Frosty
2008-05-03, 07:51 PM
Hmm, what about Amuro vs Shinji then? I'm not sure his Gundam can penetrate an AT field. But then Shinji will always miss Amuro I bet.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-04, 12:28 AM
Gurren Lagan could probably destroy it if it really is galaxy sized. It'd simply swallow the entire universe into a massive black hole.Actually (spoilers are for people who care)
This is exactly the worry the series bad guys had, and why they were trying to keep the humans down and powerless in the first place. They were worried that an excessive use of "Spiral Power" (read: hotbloodedness and courage) could create a massive energy expenditure that would crush existence to a singularity. Fortunately, TTGL and its rather hypocritical opposite number only existed in some bizarre higher dimension where normal physics don't apply, which accounts for the weird scaling and the fact that gravity and energy don't seem to be a factor in that fight.

Nerd-o-rama. From Wikipedia:410^69 J, the estimated total mass-energy of the universe[13]
Divide by 10 to get 10%.Oh, fine. I was wrong, and there's the answer. Yippee for whoever was asking.

Hmm, what about Amuro vs Shinji then? I'm not sure his Gundam can penetrate an AT field. But then Shinji will always miss Amuro I bet.
I have to hand this to Amuro, as he has received the blessing of the almighty Bright Slap, and gotten over his damn issues.

More seriously, there's really no way one can damage the other. I'd give it to Amuro on attrition or Shinji on eventually landing a decent hit, depending on circumstances and - mainly - presence or absence of an S2 engine. Although the Nu Gundam's psychoframe might have enough Deus Ex Machina potential to hit through the AT field...

Rutee
2008-05-04, 12:35 AM
Hmm, what about Amuro vs Shinji then? I'm not sure his Gundam can penetrate an AT field. But then Shinji will always miss Amuro I bet.

We know he can't mindcrush Shinji, due to the way an AT Field works. Snark aside, they probably end up dueling until the Nu Gundam runs out of power. Because like Eva vs. Ideon, the Gundam-verse, outside of SRW, lacks the outright power to bypass an AT Field. However, this still doesn't mean that an Eva can easily reproduce the destruction of the Psycho Gundams (Which might have that much outright power); Evangelion is probably weaker offensively, it just has a supreme defense.



More seriously, there's really no way one can damage the other. I'd give it to Amuro on attrition or Shinji on eventually landing a decent hit, depending on circumstances and - mainly - presence or absence of an S2 engine. Although the Nu Gundam's psychoframe might have enough Deus Ex Machina potential to hit through the AT field...
I was assuming an S-2 Engine; Without it, it's no contest. The Nu Gundam's funnels make it impossible for Shinji to defend his powerline.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-04, 12:49 AM
Oh, good point. *smacks self*. So a definite win for Amuro (assuming we aren't ***** and give him his best unit) without an S2, otherwise it's probably too hard for Amuro to damage him.

Rutee
2008-05-04, 01:11 AM
I dunno, I think Amuro vs. Shinji in a weaker unit is actually pretty fair, if it's not 01 with an S2 Engine. Amuro, first off, has been Bright Slapped, as you've pointed out, and is superbly talented. Second, what he has to do is out-finesse and trick Shinji, because of his goal.

Maybe an ReGZ or the original RX-78. ReGZ is pretty fast, which would help Amuro a ton, given what he's got to do.

black dragoon
2008-05-04, 08:39 AM
Let's not forget that Amouro at least later on was pretty well inclined to tactics something Shinji does'nt give a danm about reguarly. A couple tricky manuvers and Amuro may have Shinji to the wall and then Mama get's PO'ed and every one loses.

Frosty
2008-05-05, 01:30 AM
I dunno, I think Amuro vs. Shinji in a weaker unit is actually pretty fair, if it's not 01 with an S2 Engine. Amuro, first off, has been Bright Slapped, as you've pointed out, and is superbly talented. Second, what he has to do is out-finesse and trick Shinji, because of his goal.

Maybe an ReGZ or the original RX-78. ReGZ is pretty fast, which would help Amuro a ton, given what he's got to do.

I was thinking of Amuro in the Dijeh. I like that thing. I wanted to be mean, I'd put him in the Guncannon. More firepower, but sucktastic mobility.