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View Full Version : Defeating the Munchkin: How do I deal with Problem Players?



auroraskylines
2008-05-02, 02:30 PM
So...I'm a fairly new DM. I've run a few arenas and one serious campaign, all of which I feel I did pretty well at. There were some minor (and major) snafus here and there, but that's to be expected and I've seen worse happen to seasoned DMs, so yeah. I'm a fairly creative person and I enjoy playing in very roleplay heavy, plot intense games, and I try to deliver the same. Over the summer I'm going to be running a very urban, nitty-gritty city campaign that I want to be role play heavy, among other things. It's going to be quite a bit more complicated than what I've done previously, but I'm hoping for the best and I've got a pretty good group of players.

Now...The issue I have is one particular player who is...well...a munchkin, among other things. He was in my last game and repeatedly threw the rule book at me, and while I appreciate the usefulness of the rulebooks...when you have to repeatedly spend thirty or more minutes crawling through books and then arguing just to figure out what's going on in one round of combat...it takes away from the flow of the game a lot. I've been tossing around some ideas of how to make it so I won't run into this problem.

Now, I've made it clear that I will be having words with players who ruin the atmosphere of the game by throwing the book at me...unless I really deserve it...and I'm also making everyone get me a character dossier, so I know they've actually put some thought into their character. I've also been tossing around the idea of making dice rolling outside of combat minimal, or having copies of people's character sheets so I can make some secret rolls for them if need be...but I'm afriad that by taking the dice away the players are going to throw a fit.

Anyone have any suggestions for what I can do to make the entire party, but particularly this one player, get into the story a little more and stop getting so hung up on the mechanics?

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-02, 02:32 PM
The Dm's Handbook. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76474)

streakster
2008-05-02, 02:34 PM
"Oh look, you died. Roll a new character."

Repeat until point is grasped.

Solo
2008-05-02, 02:35 PM
Tell him to either put up or shut up.

auroraskylines
2008-05-02, 02:37 PM
@ Sstoopidtallkid: Thanks, but I've tried talking to him about it and I have been firm but polite in my demands and he still doesn't seem to get the point. I was looking for some other subtle suggestions.

@ streakster: XD Heh...I wish. I've already told one of my friends that if he starts ruining the game and won't stop I'm going to gut his character and remove him from the campaign. Heh...But anyway. Thanks for the advice.

DraPrime
2008-05-02, 02:38 PM
There is but one solution. The tomb of horrors. Without the rest of the party.

Just Alex
2008-05-02, 02:39 PM
He likes mechanics and you like acting things out. It's not a good fit. Have him find another group. Same thing happened with one of my buddies, I like the mechanics and he likes the role-play. I don't play in his games anymore. It's not like we stopped being friends over it.

TheCountAlucard
2008-05-02, 02:43 PM
Seems to me that the person clearly doesn't understand Rule 0...

Behold_the_Void
2008-05-02, 02:47 PM
I'm gonna second the "incompatible play-style."

auroraskylines
2008-05-02, 02:53 PM
@ Solo: Yeah, that's the attitude I'm taking...*sigh*

@ dragonprime: rofl XD ...That's...tempting. But then I have to listen to him whine...and that just gets annoying and makes me angry after too long.


@ Just Alex: Yeah, I know. I wasn't going to invite him, but when he heard I was running this he specifically asked to be in it and I have a problem saying 'No.' That part is my fault. I think if we start having issues we're just going to have to part gaming ways so to speak, assuming the party doesn't get fed up with him and kill his character for me.

@ TheCountAlucard: The saddest part? He thinks he does. When he's running or when a creative rule interpretation or misinterpretation goes his way...no complaints...as soon as someone does something he doesn't like... "Well...if you look on page ____ in (insert book here)..."

@ Behold_the_Void: Yeah...I was just hoping there was a way around it because he seems generally interested in the things I try to run...he just makes me miserable trying to do so.

DraPrime
2008-05-02, 02:55 PM
@ dragonprime: rofl XD ...That's...tempting. But then I have to listen to him whine...and that just gets annoying and makes me angry after too long.

He'll be too busy dying from horrendously evil traps to actually complain. And if he does, slap him. Always works with my group :smalltongue:

streakster
2008-05-02, 02:57 PM
Get a timer. Any time he wants to argue the rules he has 30 seconds. If he talks after that, he gets wrathed.

valadil
2008-05-02, 02:58 PM
I've had this problem. Here's what I do to weed out the power gamers:


- Invite them to a collaborative storytelling session. Not to a D&D game.
- Better yet, tell them that you aren't running D&D. Instead you're running aurora's RPG which is a game loosely inspired by D&D. This gives you complete liberty to ignore books and makes it obvious to the players that you intend to do so.
- Require a background history for every character.

Usually that's enough. Once a power gamer figures out that this isn't going to be a chance to try out his newest uber build, he usually loses interest. At the same time this will get the roleplayers in your group all psyched up about it.

- edit -

Forgot to mention this, but rules arguments can always be deferred until after the game. You can very easily tell him that this particular argument that you're having is taking up too much time and that you will continue to play with your current ruling. The argument can take place after game when it won't waste everyone's time. 99% of players would rather play the game incorrectly than not play the game while trying to figure out how to play it correctly.

Tellah
2008-05-02, 03:00 PM
I had a couple of players leave my Mage: The Awakening game recently due to incompatible playstyles. It doesn't feel great to have that discussion, but we're still buddies. What helped me in this regard was being really open at the beginning about the style of the game. The player didn't say, when he left, that he didn't like my style of GMing, or that I wasn't making the game fun. He said, "I just don't think narrative play is right for me." That made all the difference, in my mind, between a severed friendship and the end of one player's involvement in a game.

So here's what you do: when you're ready to start your game, be very, very open about the tone the game will take, how play will go, and what you expect from the players. Invite the munchkin to join you, but don't give him any expectation that it's going to be a game about kicking butt, taking names, and "winning" D&D. Encourage him to try to play in your style, and if you're both lucky, he'll find out that he actually likes roleplaying! If not, then no hard feelings--it's not the game for him, and you were honest about that.

hamishspence
2008-05-02, 03:02 PM
In the munchkin books, we get shown that there are a number of traits that might be defined as munchkinish.

A tendency to slaughter NPCs for XP
Heavily optimized characters
Rules-lawyer tendencies.

And more. Which is not to say a little munchkin style gaming cannot be fun, but DM does need to be aware of what the gameplay will be like, and take action. What action will depend of the DM. If munchkin player has no sense of humour, game is probably doomed. If they do, might be more fun than it might seem at first.

Trog
2008-05-02, 03:03 PM
Being a seasoned DM (20+ years), I'd say, first of all, start with making the rule that if you want to dispute the DM... YOU (the player) must do the looking up. Often this leads to "rules lawyers" looking it up before they ever acted just to have it on hand to support their action. See what problems this solves.

If it doesn't solve the time problem next I would institute the rule that looking up the rule must be done either before the action or after the playing session. And that if they did not look it up before hand then DM's word is law for the remainder of that playing session for the sake of just getting on with the game.

If the player doesn't find either of these options reasonable or workable then lay out his options. Either he stops halting the game or he is removed from it.

In the meantime it is certainly a good idea for you to be up on the rules so boning up never hurt. Plus bookmarking anything you feel might cause an argument (say you have a grappling foe coming up in the next session... better know grapple, etc.) is also a big time-saver.

Hope this helps. :smallsmile:

purepolarpanzer
2008-05-02, 03:04 PM
I always insist on the Final Word. You know what the final word is, Munchkin? I don't care what splat book ya got. I don't care if it's in the DMG, the SRD, or the Constitution (jk), in game DM word is law. If I want to allow reflex saves when the DMG basically doesn't allow it, or not allow some crazy ass combo, it's my call.

Swordguy
2008-05-02, 03:04 PM
Wait...you said that he "threw the rulebook at you".

Can you expound on that? Like, did he literally propel the rulebook through the air in your direction? Because if so, it's a whole 'nother problem than just "incompatible playstyles".

Solo
2008-05-02, 03:06 PM
Wait...you said that he "threw the rulebook at you".

Can you expound on that? Like, did he literally propel the rulebook through the air in your direction? Because if so, it's a whole 'nother problem than just "incompatible playstyles".

A problem which could be solved by judicious application of one's fist to the other's adam's apple.

That or calling his parents/the police and/or subsequently shunning him.

psychoticbarber
2008-05-02, 03:07 PM
I can definitely tell you what not to do. Don't play his game. Don't fight rules issues with rules arguments, because even if you're right, it's a waste of time.

I tend to talk instead about disrupting the game, hurting the experience for the other players, and other sorts of things. It's not the character's problem, it's the player's problem, so you shouldn't try to correct the character, you should try to correct the player.

Tengu
2008-05-02, 03:10 PM
A problem which could be solved by judicious application of one's fist to the other's adam's apple.

That or calling his parents/the police and/or subsequently shunning him.

Or the always good, classic d4 up the nose. Afterwards buy a collection of variously-colored d4s and always keep them on display while playing.

Solo
2008-05-02, 03:13 PM
Or the always good, classic d4 up the nose. Afterwards buy a collection of variously-colored d4s and always keep them on display while playing.

Dunno about you, but my fists are always on display :p

KIDS
2008-05-02, 03:22 PM
The generalization gathered in this thread is way over nine thousand... shame...

I am opposed to going at war with your problem player, in game or out of game. Whatever you do don't do "revenges" and don't put him or yourself into a premade position of good/evil/roleplayer/munchkin because then it will be you who's being a jerk. Ok?

The point is to talk about it. Game wasn't meant to be resolved via an arms race no matter the clues in PHB. The next time he starts arguing, you should politely stress that while perhaps he might be right following a rule X/Y on page Z (important point: how often do you make rules mistakes?), it is holding up the game and world isn't going to crash over such small details.
So first, stress that it is largely insignificant, and that you know what you're doing and that him doing that seems a bit unappreciative.
Second, stress that arguments are a part of the game but they should happen before or after the game. An argument in game must be presented with half a minute most and doesn't require anyone to leaf through rulebooks.
Third, stress that you know what you're doing, and that you're meaning well. His character won't die or be any less cool because of a rule that didn't go his way.
And fourth, stress that it is making the game much less fun to play. It would be much more fun for everyone if they could focus on resolving the mystery instead of looking in rulebooks. This is very important. If this doesn't go through his head, you've done everything you could have - having fun in a D&D game is the primary objective and everyone should respect that.

Anyways, call me a carebear, but it all amounts to a) being nice and b) talking. It's ridiculous enough that so many people live in paranoia of "munchkins" and set up lines of defenses in their games as if their life was going to be wrecked if a munchkin made it through, you don't need to join that club. If all of the above fails, then it really will be the best to play without him. Good luck!

Chronos
2008-05-02, 03:23 PM
The DM I've played under the most has a houserule that each player may challenge a DM decision once per session. On your designated challenge, he'll go through the rulebooks in as much detail as needed to resolve the question. But whichever way the question is resolved, even if you're right, that's your one challenge used up.

Of course, this depends on the players having a certain level of trust in the DM's decision-making abilities and knowledge of the rules. But some level of trust is necessary, anyway, and it keeps the game moving smoothly. And in fact, you don't get anywhere near one challenge per player per session, because like a low-level second-edition wizard, you have to hoard your one challenge for when you really need it, and you'll usually find by the end of the night that you didn't need it after all.

Fawsto
2008-05-02, 03:27 PM
You are going straight and tell him this:

Dude, I will begin this campaing and I will intend to use the following table rules. Including Rule 0. Meaning that if I find something gamebreaking or disturbing I won't allow it. And these are based on my criteria, not yours. These are intended to keep the game fun to everybody, including me. Every time we spend 30 minutes or any given time period discussing about rules, I am not having fun, so I won't be doing that.

Make sure to say this in front of all players. Them ask everybody if they agree. If they are ok with this, start your game. If the munchkin starts powergaming to absurd, gently apply rule 0 and remember him about the discussion above.

The other hand. Clone his character (just the sheet) as an NPC than add about 5 levels. Use this NPC to kick his ass and show him how much muchkin sucks.

AKA_Bait
2008-05-02, 03:29 PM
Ok:

On the rule book thing: Explain that you, as DM, are arbiter of the rules during play. If you make a ruling then it sticks for the duration of the session. If they want to take it up after, fine. Tell them you need to keep the game moving. If they can't, or won't, understand that you need them to exercise the patience to wait until after the session, then you may very well need to consider asking them not to play.

An option, when you are starting a new game, is to admit them under the condition that they abide by that. Granted, that should be unspoken, but some folks need things explained to them.

Another suggestion is to ask them to build the character concept first. Many players who don't get deep into the RP tend to go mechanics and then concept. Working the other way around can be good to get them in the mindset of fitting the build to the character rather than vice versa.

As for taking the dice away from the players in social situations, talk about it provisionally with the players first. Test the waters. Remember, if they get a ton of fun from rolling the dice, a good DM should respect that.

Starbuck_II
2008-05-02, 04:14 PM
auroraskylines:


Now...The issue I have is one particular player who is...well...a munchkin, among other things. He was in my last game and repeatedly threw the rule book at me, and while I appreciate the usefulness of the rulebooks...when you have to repeatedly spend thirty or more minutes crawling through books and then arguing just to figure out what's going on in one round of combat...it takes away from the flow of the game a lot. I've been tossing around some ideas of how to make it so I won't run into this problem.

He sounds more like a rule lawyer than a munchkin.

Why do you deter from the rules? Why give them a list of houserules? Unless you rule 0 randomly...

Munchkins are rarely rules lawyers (since you have to actually know the rules). Munchkining is more like bluffing.

.
Third, stress that you know what you're doing, and that you're meaning well. His character won't die or be any less cool because of a rule that didn't go his way.


I largely disagree about that. I've had a DM deny my rogue evasion versus fireball due to room was too small (10 by 10). And yes, it did kill my rogue.

And ever since than, I give error to the player about rules being followed. Not following rules can and will kill a player.
Now, we hope the OP's rule 0 wasn't that bad. But we don't know she has yet to give examples.

bosssmiley
2008-05-02, 04:16 PM
"The rules serve the game, not vice versa"

If your resident munchkin is too silly and immature to understand this then just show him the door. Maybe recommend him a group of people who play more in his style if you're feeling generous.

Life is too short for bad game.

Maerok
2008-05-02, 04:44 PM
A rust monster.
Or an even bigger munchkin, preferably his own build advanced by a few levels. :smallamused:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-02, 05:00 PM
Or an even bigger munchkin, preferably his own build advanced by a few levels. :smallamused:Bad idea. If he is good, you'll never be as good with his build as he is. That's why the Aleax isn't that dangerous.

Sucrose
2008-05-02, 06:30 PM
I second the notion that he's more of a rules lawyer than a munchkin. Semantics aside, though, the advice of those who advised you to just talk with him is good. I would like to stress that you should try to be nonconfrontational about it.

Some people get it into their heads that there is a "right" way to play games, and a "wrong" way. Your problem player, from the information that I've seen thus far, seems to be mostly of this sort. As such, you should explain that yes, you will occasionally screw up a rule. However, unless it is an absolute, life and death situation, it's best that he just roll with it, and tell you after the session, because debates slow down the game, for him, you, and all the other players at the table.

Just try to show him the consequences of his actions, and have him self-police. If he proves ill-equipped for this responsibility, then you should step up to some of the slightly more draconian approaches.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-02, 07:16 PM
I second the notion that he's more of a rules lawyer than a munchkin. Semantics aside, though, the advice of those who advised you to just talk with him is good. I would like to stress that you should try to be nonconfrontational about it.

Some people get it into their heads that there is a "right" way to play games, and a "wrong" way. Your problem player, from the information that I've seen thus far, seems to be mostly of this sort. As such, you should explain that yes, you will occasionally screw up a rule. However, unless it is an absolute, life and death situation, it's best that he just roll with it, and tell you after the session, because debates slow down the game, for him, you, and all the other players at the table.

Just try to show him the consequences of his actions, and have him self-police. If he proves ill-equipped for this responsibility, then you should step up to some of the slightly more draconian approaches.

This is absolute nonsense.

You should start Draconian and get more so. Nothing good can come from a player actually knowing the rules. In fact, you should change the stat that governs attack bonuses every round just to spite that kind of behavior.

Also, as DM you are obligated to make your players weak and miserable. Seriously, if they feel like their character is cool, you aren't doing a good enough job making them feel helpless.

Rules should be changed arbitrarily on a whim because you can. Don't listen to talk of rules at all. In fact, if someone tries to point out a rule, pick up a pen and write in the book (even if they own it) "[Jerk who is trying to correct you] is not allowed to talk." That'll show'em.

Swordguy
2008-05-02, 07:23 PM
Again, to everyone advocating calm rational action:

1) You're on the internet. What kind of crap is advocating calm, ration action?
2) The player has evidently thrown a rulebook at the DM. If it's physically throwing the book, then the time for calm, rational behavior is long past, and Solo's brand of action is called for. No, I'm not being metaphorical. At the very least, he's out of the group, period - no discussion, no compromise. He's gone. Problem solved.

...throwing a damn rulebook. No excuse. None. Ever. Rawr. :smallannoyed:

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-02, 07:35 PM
Again, to everyone advocating calm rational action:

1) You're on the internet. What kind of crap is advocating calm, ration action?
2) The player has evidently thrown a rulebook at the DM. If it's physically throwing the book, then the time for calm, rational behavior is long past, and Solo's brand of action is called for. No, I'm not being metaphorical. At the very least, he's out of the group, period - no discussion, no compromise. He's gone. Problem solved.

...throwing a damn rulebook. No excuse. None. Ever. Rawr. :smallannoyed:

+1, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

OverWilliam
2008-05-02, 07:37 PM
This is absolute nonsense.

You should start Draconian and get more so. Nothing good can come from a player actually knowing the rules. In fact, you should change the stat that governs attack bonuses every round just to spite that kind of behavior.

Also, as DM you are obligated to make your players weak and miserable. Seriously, if they feel like their character is cool, you aren't doing a good enough job making them feel helpless.

Rules should be changed arbitrarily on a whim because you can. Don't listen to talk of rules at all. In fact, if someone tries to point out a rule, pick up a pen and write in the book (even if they own it) "[Jerk who is trying to correct you] is not allowed to talk." That'll show'em.

...

Remind me to never play with Chosen as DM. Even though I am the peaceful, law abiding type. Ever.

Solo
2008-05-02, 07:45 PM
Your sarcasm detector is broken

Citizen Joe
2008-05-02, 08:15 PM
Munchkins are under the assumption that 'Winning" in an ongoing RPG is a good thing. The point of an RPG is to play, not win. Winning implies the end of the game. While that may be good for the end of a campaign, you're probably not playing the endgame at this moment.

Solution: Let the munchkin "win". While everyone else will be content with just a regular amount of rewards and opposition, make it so the munchkin gets just about everything. Fame, glory, money, status... just keep heaping it on him in ridiculous levels. Then offer him a kingdom. When the fool accepts, take away his character sheet and announce "Congratulations, you've won! Your character goes on to be a great and mighty king, much beloved by all he surveys." Then continue with the rest of the campaign with the rest of the characters.

Dreams are something to be strived for but never attained.

Sucrose
2008-05-02, 09:14 PM
Again, to everyone advocating calm rational action:

1) You're on the internet. What kind of crap is advocating calm, ration action?
2) The player has evidently thrown a rulebook at the DM. If it's physically throwing the book, then the time for calm, rational behavior is long past, and Solo's brand of action is called for. No, I'm not being metaphorical. At the very least, he's out of the group, period - no discussion, no compromise. He's gone. Problem solved.

...throwing a damn rulebook. No excuse. None. Ever. Rawr. :smallannoyed:

1) Meh, I'm a utopian thinker.:smalltongue:
2) Evidently, the DM in question is all right with rulebooks being thrown at her, if she really deserves it. Thus, she merely needs to clarify when it is acceptable for her players to assault her, and enforce the limits strictly.

I am, of course, assuming that she was using a figure of speech; if not, then yes, fisticuffs, law enforcement, and the like are all highly encouraged.

FlyMolo
2008-05-02, 09:24 PM
There is but one solution. The tomb of horrors. Without the rest of the party.

Agreed. There's a trapdoor in the road or somesuch.

Rutee
2008-05-02, 10:32 PM
Uh.

Just to interject for a moment. "Throw the book at you" is a turn of phrase. I don't think she literally meant it.. think.

Sucrose
2008-05-02, 10:41 PM
Uh.

Just to interject for a moment. "Throw the book at you" is a turn of phrase. I don't think she literally meant it.. think.

...perhaps I shouldn't have used white text. I'm pretty sure that everyone here is under the same impression as you, including myself.

To repeat my hidden text, actual physical assault is obviously a point at which you have no real choice but to eject the player, and involve law enforcement.

Rutee
2008-05-02, 10:47 PM
Swordguy and Solo were who I noticed about that...

auroraskylines
2008-05-02, 10:49 PM
Wow...I leave for a long shift and work and I come back to a whole lot of feedback, which is nifty.

As far as the whole rules lawyer/munchkin...the two are not mutually exclusive and he is both. He's big on the whole "Well...technically..." statements as well as finding ways to twink out characters based on technicalities in the rules, which, is a form of munchkining. But, that aside...

I usually don't arbitrarily change the rules. For the most part, I stick to them unless based on a certain situation it just does not make any sense. I am blessed with being a part of a very creative gaming group which can make things both rewarding and a pain for DMs. We run into a lot of random situations that just aren't a part of the rules, so a lot of times someone has to make a ruling on the fly (i.e. "Okay...so I'm going to use animate rope to tie my rope to the railing up there...then I'm going to climb up and try to use my weight to get a pendulum motion going...and then launch myself at the monster. What do I roll...?" "...*blink*...Uh..."). I don't usually just change things at random, but when a particular rule just doesn't work for a situation, I've seen the need to twink them or make house rulings. I always stick with my house rules once I've made them and I usually let people know ahead of time any weird rules that I know of ahead of time that I know I wil be implementing.

I do like a lot of the ideas I've been getting and I'm going to try a few of them. These people are my friends and I would like to keep it that way...and I really don't like getting all heated over something small like this. I was just looking for some advice for good ways to politely encourage this player to attempt to change his behavior.

And yes, I was being metaphoric with the "throw the book" comment. We have thrown dice, though. In fact I once used a dice bag as a sap...

Ralfarius
2008-05-02, 10:50 PM
I notice the OP mentioning a few times about the type of game she (I'm going by avatar) wants to DM, and what she wants to happen. Now, not to deride the concern raised about said 'problem player' but, I have to ask. Is this the game the players want? If it's just one player causing a ruckus, then the answer is likely yes.

However, this is important; Make sure, well before you even put pen to paper, that you and the players are all on the same page about the campaign. I've found it's much more satisfying to know that the players expect certain things, theme-wise, mood-wise, and rule-wise. You'll be able to root out any potential conflicts well before they happen if one or more players doesn't seem thrilled about what you're interested in. Then, you can either find new players, or find some sort of compromise of ideas and write a campaign everyone will enjoy.

Personally, as a DM, I prefer a player who will consult me on rules, even during a session. Though, I've always played amongst like-minded, rule-interested individuals. Everyone at the table is usually ready to flip through their PHBs and such simultaneously to find and help decipher any misunderstanding or misinterpretation.

It might hold up combat temporarily, but I've found that everyone taking an active part in enforcing proper rules. It gives everyone a better grasp because they have a vested interest in being right, and overall tends to make referencing and arbitration mostly quick and painless.

Of course, this is only in my limited experience. Each group is different, which is why everyone has to be in some sort of agreement as to how they want to play.

Sucrose
2008-05-02, 11:02 PM
Wow...I leave for a long shift and work and I come back to a whole lot of feedback, which is nifty.

As far as the whole rules lawyer/munchkin...the two are not mutually exclusive and he is both. He's big on the whole "Well...technically..." statements as well as finding ways to twink out characters based on technicalities in the rules, which, is a form of munchkining. But, that aside...

I usually don't arbitrarily change the rules. For the most part, I stick to them unless based on a certain situation it just does not make any sense. I am blessed with being a part of a very creative gaming group which can make things both rewarding and a pain for DMs. We run into a lot of random situations that just aren't a part of the rules, so a lot of times someone has to make a ruling on the fly (i.e. "Okay...so I'm going to use animate rope to tie my rope to the railing up there...then I'm going to climb up and try to use my weight to get a pendulum motion going...and then launch myself at the monster. What do I roll...?" "...*blink*...Uh..."). I don't usually just change things at random, but when a particular rule just doesn't work for a situation, I've seen the need to twink them or make house rulings. I always stick with my house rules once I've made them and I usually let people know ahead of time any weird rules that I know of ahead of time that I know I wil be implementing.

I do like a lot of the ideas I've been getting and I'm going to try a few of them. These people are my friends and I would like to keep it that way...and I really don't like getting all heated over something small like this. I was just looking for some advice for good ways to politely encourage this player to attempt to change his behavior.

And yes, I was being metaphoric with the "throw the book" comment. We have thrown dice, though. In fact I once used a dice bag as a sap...

Ah, all right; thank you for clarifying why you called this guy a munchkin. Anyway, if he tends to argue with off-the-cuff rulings for things that aren't covered by the books, then I wholeheartedly endorse the earlier idea regarding only giving each player one rules quibble per session, at least regarding said off-the-cuff rulings.

Perhaps you could set it out in a party contract, which also settles other possible points of contention, like food responsibilities and such.

Edit: Also, +1 what Ralfarius said about finding out player expectations, if it hasn't been done already. It's just good general policy.

Swordguy
2008-05-02, 11:07 PM
And yes, I was being metaphoric with the "throw the book" comment. We have thrown dice, though. In fact I once used a dice bag as a sap...

Ok then...try the calm and rational advice strewn in many places about this thread. It's generally all good. (Though not as cathartic, to be sure. :smallbiggrin: )

TheGreatQuimble
2008-05-02, 11:22 PM
So i'm sorry if its been covered but im old and tired.

If he is such a rule lawyer kindly remind him of the golden rule that states you as the DM can make up and or change any rule you see fit at any time you see fit. I think it still states something like that in the begining of the DM's guide. or at least it used to. If not, randomly placed traps that seem to spring up might be funny. make them "pie traps" or something harmless but decidedly anoying to humor him, and the rest of the party....

~Q

quiet1mi
2008-05-02, 11:33 PM
Hmmm... how to defeat a munchkin....

you can't out munchkin a munchkin so..... beat him with the roleplaying stick!

I have the same problems so i have contingency plan in case problem player does X i Can do A,B, or C (to prevent him from adapting)

if he....
builds a super optimized person...

scare him by throwing NON-Combat situations at him
have that be his shtick.... and have him be the guy that does X and only X (he can't munchkin himself to do everything, so find out what he can do [most do combat] and do less of that...)

if he starts killing Npc

have the town guard take him out [non-lethal] followed by a role-playing lecture while he is bound and stripped of his gear)
have a group [party] of bounty hunters take him out
put a bounty on his head [in game of course] and give the party to role play him that out...like him being attacked constantly by weak npc[little xp] until you can coup de grace [when he sleeps] or have him kidnapped by a cult of cannibals that worship him as a god and eat him so they can receive a blessing...

If he tries to "game your system of responses" change it up on him.... the best way to deal with a metagamer is to have most outside knowledge be wrong...

AstralFire
2008-05-03, 07:44 AM
...Sometimes it feels like a lot of DMs want to assert control with "Lalala, Rule Zero, can't hear you!"

Not that the OP is acting like that, but that's sure the vibe I'm getting from a lot of these responses. One rules quibble per game? Outmunch a player? Punish them? Seriously, what the heck. Talk to them, don't do passive-aggressive stuff.

My players get as many opportunities to argue with me as they feel like they need, and the rest of the group quickly reigns them in if things are starting to get too slow.

I'm sure a lot of you are great DMs, but whenever I see advice like this it makes my eyes roll. I doubt being passive-aggressive control monger is even how any of you play, but I can't help but wonder if the DMs that became that way did so because of advice which told them to, off the bat, defend themselves with Rule Zero.