Guts (Gatsu, Gats, Ect) Vs Berserker

[Matar]

Alrighty~ Here's the senario. Guts from Berserk, Vs Berserker from Fate/Stay Night.

For the sake of debate, we shall say the Guts sword can wound Berserker, but his Arm Cannon must be shot internally (In mouth, in a open cut, ect) to cause any harm.

Gut's miniature bomb things that he tosses is capable of temperarily blinding Berserker, if he can nail him right in the eyes. This only works once however.

Guts also has his Berserker armor.

The area is a. Ehhh... 50 square foot area, with a few trees here and there.

I honestly don't know who to go for >_>.

[Poison_Fish]

Uh, who's Berserker's master and is he bound in specifically berserker mode?

Because he can do a lot more if he's bound in a different form.

[Rutee]

I don't know Guts well, but I'll point out that attacks need to be capable of, in general, devastating city blocks to break past 12 Labors in the first place, let alone to kill him once. If the attack to an A Class Noble Phantasm, it will not dent him, period. 12 Labors buffs /all/ of him, not just his skin. Without the raw power of an A Class Noble Phantasm, the only other option you have is to completely exhaust his mana supply; As a Servant who doesn't use Mana on Noble Phantasms, linked to an extremely powerful Master (Ilya) this is an extremely difficult task (Doable, but difficult)

That said, if Guts has the resources to kill Hercules 13 times, he can probably do it.. from what I remember, eh's exceptionally skilled.

[Matar]

Well, while not explody Guts is extremly strong. His sword has killed so many demons that it basically became magic from it. He can swing it as fast as a whip (This being a comment from the Anime) and I recall a picture in the manga where he chops a demon into like, a bunch of peices before it even hits the ground. He can shop through Stone Pillers with ease. In fact, he can shop through several and only be slowed down a bit by them (Same with Berserker, remember the tomb stones?)

His strength is insane, I am quite sure it matches (If not stronger) then Berserkers.

His endurance is also insane, if I remember right, he's broken all the bones in his body and still survived. And fought. Been covered in lighting from some demon cloud, and lived.

So yeah, his strength is a match for Berserker, and I am rather sure he can damage him. If you want, I can post some pics here. In spoilers, of course. Of what exactly he can do.

[Rutee]

Breaking through Twelve Labors has fairly little to do with strength; For instance, Lancer can not damage Berserker, ever. He's extremely strong. I was being completely literal; You must have as much output of pure energy (I'm going to figure it doesn't require it to be /magical/.. but it /might/. I'm not clear on that) as an A-Ranked Noble Phantasm to break through it. Otherwise you haven't dented him.

For that matter, Berserker can't damage Berserker, in all probability. You could argue that Godhand can break Godhand (It is, after all, A Ranked), but Godhand isn't an offensive Noble Phantasm. He can't access Nine Lives: The Hundred Shooting Heads while under Mad Enhancement, so he doesn't have an A Ranked Noble Phantasm to break through Godhand's protection. So again, Guts being as strong as Hercules doesn't grant him the ability to /beat/ Hercules.

As to Mana, I think Berserker has in the neighborhood of 3500 mana, and fighting for a full day is about 200 mana (After counting mana regain from the Master still being alive). So if he wants to beat Berserker through mana drain, he has to be good enough to force a lack of conclusion after about 17 and a half days. Also note that Berserker does not tire, as he's not actually a living human being.

[Matar]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Gilgamesh kill Berserker just by shooting Noble Phantasm's at him? He didn't use the Noble Phantasm, but instead just shot them at Berserker. And the speed that they were shot at could not be godly fast, seeing as how Shinji could see them Mid-flight.

Also, take this with a grain of salt. It's been awhile since I played the game, so I may be wrong. But didn't it say some place in game that it would take an A+ rank attack or higher to damage him? Berserkers strength *is* rank A+, and Guts is certainly just as strong (I'd say he attacks stronger,be honest. If you want, I can post some pictures displaying his strength.)

I have the game, FYI. Can you tell me where they make the statement that only a A+ Noble Phantasm can take away one of his lives? I would have sworn it was an A+ ranked attack.

[Rutee]

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Gilgamesh kill Berserker just by shooting Noble Phantasm's at him? He didn't use the Noble Phantasm, but instead just shot them at Berserker. And the speed that they were shot at could not be godly fast, seeing as how Shinji could see them Mid-flight.

Also, take this with a grain of salt. It's been awhile since I played the game, so I may be wrong. But didn't it say some place in game that it would take an A+ rank attack or higher to damage him? Berserkers strength *is* rank A+, and Guts is certainly just as strong (I'd say he attacks stronger,be honest. If you want, I can post some pictures displaying his strength.)

I have the game, FYI. Can you tell me where they make the statement that only a A+ Noble Phantasm can take away one of his lives? I would have sworn it was an A+ ranked attack.

It's all in the manual, but Wikipedia references that, as does, more importantly, the Nasuverse wikia (Dead as it is, it is the most accurate English source on the net for the nitty gritty of stuff like this). You can not damage Berserker with attacks that are beneath an A Ranked Noble Phantasm in power (I figure it doesn't have to be an NP per se, or Guts would be flat out screwed).

And yes. Gate of Babylon contains /quite a few/ Noble Phantasms in it, most of which are A Rank or better (Do recall, that he has the conceptual versions of several Noble Phantasms, and NAsuverse metaphysics being what they are, the conceptual version is better.) No, mundane strength won't do it; An A+ rank in strength doesn't equate to an A rank NP's output.

Though I was wrong; Berserker can damage Berserker; Fragarach is capable of treating it as a 'trump card' (Kinoko Nasu is on record as being the one who stated that it works), despite the fact that it's not an offensive Noble Phantasm, and can unconditionally take one of his lives. So presumably, Godhand can be used to break Godhand.

Edit:
Nevermind. It does actually have to be magical, at the least, to break Godhand. Nasu is /also/ on record as saying Assassin is physically incapable of beating Berserker, similar to Lancer. Tsubame Gaeshi is /as powerful/ as an A Ranked Noble Phantasm... but isn't one. It's a dimension-alterring special sword attack, but there's no magic to it; As such, it can't pierce Godhand (Though he was still capable of repulsing Berserker)

So.. that leaves the question. Is Guts' sword as strong as an A-Ranked Noble Phantasm, after the Phantasm's true power is invoked?

[Matar]

Well, Guts sword is certainly comparible to a Nobel Phantasm. I mean, it's capable of killing Apostols and such.

What I am trying to say is, that by comparing the two worlds wouldn't it be rather safe to assume that the Dragon Slayer, in Gut's hands, is comparible to a Noble Phantasm?

Also, I don't ever recall Gilgamesh useing one. I played the game, and all he did was blast the dude.

Alot.

A. Freaking. Lot.

In fact, other then his ultimate sword, World-Spliter or whatever, I don't remember him *ever* useing another weapons true attack. The weapon itself, yeah. Of course. But never the "True attack".


So.. that leaves the question. Is Guts' sword as strong as an A-Ranked Noble Phantasm, after the Phantasm's true power is invoked?

I would say so, to be honest. It can do some wild ****, and certainly is magical. Er, how would I go about proving this? Imma go post some pics of the **** it can do, to make this a touch more fair.

[Rutee]

What I am trying to say is, that by comparing the two worlds wouldn't it be rather safe to assume that the Dragon Slayer, in Gut's hands, is comparible to a Noble Phantasm?
Yes, but as I said, Godhand doesn't play that way; Tsubame Gaeshi is comparable to a Noble Phantasm, but isn't /magically/ powerful enough to dent Berserker through Godhand, and that's /word of god/. Dragon Slayer has to be as powerful magically as Excalibur, or Pegasus' upper level attacks.


Also, I don't ever recall Gilgamesh useing one. I played the game, and all he did was blast the dude.

Alot.

A. Freaking. Lot.

In fact, other then his ultimate sword, World-Spliter or whatever, I don't remember him *ever* useing another weapons true attack. The weapon itself, yeah. Of course. But never the "True attack".

Debatable, given the nature of Gate of Babylon, but if I grant you that point, those are still extremely powerful swords, magically. Dragon Slayer has to be on par with that.


I would say so, to be honest. It can do some wild ****, and certainly is magical. Er, how would I go about proving this? Imma go post some pics of the **** it can do, to make this a touch more fair.
I have no idea, to be honest. Comparing metaphysics is a huge bitch.

[Anteros]

Considering that the berserk series is likely to culminate with Guts literally killing God....I'm pretty sure he can hurt him. Actually I can't think of anyone I would bet on against Guts. Maybe Goku.

[Matar]

Debatable, given the nature of Gate of Babylon, but if I grant you that point, those are still extremely powerful swords, magically. Dragon Slayer has to be on par with that.

Would you mind me asking for the quote and link to where you found it? I don't mean any offence, I just wish to see it.

Also, from what I remember, Dragon slayer grants the *capability* to kill them. As in, it grants him the capability to kill the God Hand, demons, and the like. However, Guts still needs to exert enough strength to do it.

Im sure how to explane it, really. I would say his sword would make it so that he could damage him, but he would still have to exert enough strength to *do* it.

So, it would remove his immunity to it, but his skin would still be as tough as steel, I guess. Can we agree with that?


Considering that the berserk series is likely to culminate with Guts literally killing God....I'm pretty sure he can hurt him. Actually I can't think of anyone I would bet on against Guts. Maybe Goku.

There are a ton of characters that can kill Guts >_>. Many many many, alot even in the same Anime as Berserker.

[Rutee]

Im sure how to explane it, really. I would say his sword would make it so that he could damage him, but he would still have to exert enough strength to *do* it.

So, it would remove his immunity to it, but his skin would still be as tough as steel, I guess. Can we agree with that?

Well, I can't agree to anything; You have much more information then I do, in general. I'm not being insulting or facetious. But the way you're explainingi t, it might; After all, if it's designed to break the protection of divine entities (With an A Rank in Divinity, Berserker counts), it very well could count as negating Godhand's protections.


Considering that the berserk series is likely to culminate with Guts literally killing God....I'm pretty sure he can hurt him. Actually I can't think of anyone I would bet on against Guts. Maybe Goku.
Laharl.

[nothingclever]

I would say Guts' sword may be able to damage Berserker simply because of its supernatural qualities even though I understand that he should need some kind of special attack technique by Fate rules.

The reason I think it might be fair to do this is that Guts has no phantasms or special techniques but his sword can cut spirits which should be incorporeal/intangible or just impossible to wound for magical reasons. He shows this by being able to kill evil spirits which are in between the spiritual and physical world and he has also seriously wounded a very very strong evil magic user in his world who took the form of a giant flaming face. This guy was unable to be wounded by conventional attacks and could kill entire armies but Guts was able to wound him greatly enough in one hit to make him retreat in fear.

I don't know really. There aren't enough similarities between the worlds to make good comparisons of what would or would not work. If Guts must follow Fate's rules he loses because he has no clearly defined special moves and his world has no restrictions on Berserker's power since it never has any mention of magic like people in Fate use.

If Berserker could be damaged by a weapon with a sufficiently epic quality then I'd say Guts' sword could qualify. From what I vaguely remember part of what makes weapons of servants so strong is their historical importance and legendary status. Since Guts has killed entire armies of demons with his I think that it may have a high quality.

[Matar]

Well, I can't agree to anything; You have much more information then I do, in general. I'm not being insulting or facetious. But the way you're explainingi t, it might; After all, if it's designed to break the protection of divine entities (With an A Rank in Divinity, Berserker counts), it very well could count as negating Godhand's protections.

So, shall we just go with Guts being able to damage Berserker? At least, until some other proof comes up that suggests otherwhys.

Well, anyways. Let's compare there strength. Guts has cut through several stone pillars, that has reinforced iron cores. He's capable of pushing at least a few tons off of him.

His attacks are capable of cutting through steel swords with ease. He can cut through armor plating that's three times thicker then normal armor, again, with ease.

He was capable of lifting the main mast of a ship, and push it off him while still standing with ease (It looked like ease, at least.). However, he did this in is "Berserker Armor" state.

And more, im sure. I just dun wanna dig more through the Manga for all my info ATM >.<.

[TSGames]

The area is a. Ehhh... 50 square foot area, with a few trees here and there.

I honestly don't know who to go for >_>.
Seeing a fight in a 5' x 10' room would be fairly interesting... It would be pretty funny to see Guts use his sword in an area that small(he might get stuck).

[Anteros]

I guess I wasn't clear. When I said that Guts was heading towards killing God, I didn't mean "lolgod" as in the traditional greek, or even the classical anime sense. I'm talking about a being that's supposed to be (in the authors opinion of course) on the level of the Christian God. Omnipotent...all powerful...this is what Guts is up against.

And you misunderstand me. I didn't mean that there are no characters who are stronger than Guts...because a huge number of characters are stronger than him. I meant that Guts would beat them...because...well...he's Guts. He's just one of those characters who has that aura about them.


Seeing a fight in a 5' x 10' room would be fairly interesting... It would be pretty funny to see Guts use his sword in an area that small(he might get stuck).

It would be pretty funny to see Guts fighting in a 5X10 room. If only because I have a strong suspicion that the room would very quickly become renovated into a much larger, rubble filled, space.

[Rutee]

I guess I wasn't clear. When I said that Guts was heading towards killing God, I didn't mean "lolgod" as in the traditional greek, or even the classical anime sense. I'm talking about a being that's supposed to be on the level of the Christian God. Omnipotent...all powerful...this is what Guts is up against.
Yeah, I got that. It's still not that uncommon.


So, shall we just go with Guts being able to damage Berserker? At least, until some other proof comes up that suggests otherwhys.
Well, sure. There's still one other problem though; Taking out one of Berserker's lives still requires a rather large number of 'hits', as it were. And he's got 12 (My bad earlier on saying 13; It's the Twelve Labors, so I keep thinking it resurrects him 12 times).

And no, I don't have an offhand link to the Nasuverse Pedia, as I have to use the Wayback Machine to access it..

[Anteros]

Yeah, I got that. It's still not that uncommon.

Really? I know a lot of anime characters who fight against "gods". But I'm not familiar with any who go up against omnipotent ones that often. I'm not arguing, but maybe you could give me some direction? I'd like to check them out.

[Rutee]

Anime, not too many. RPGs had at least one long kick in the early 90s where the omnipotent creator God is your enemy, however. Right off the top of my head, Final Fantasy Legends does it for the final boss fight.

You could argue that Zetta begins Makai Kingdom, as well, by torching the Omnipotent Creator God, and in doing so, destroys his own Netherworld.

[Matar]

Well, sure. There's still one other problem though; Taking out one of Berserker's lives still requires a rather large number of 'hits', as it were. And he's got 12 (My bad earlier on saying 13; It's the Twelve Labors, so I keep thinking it resurrects him 12 times).

That is indeed a problem.

I picture it leading to a mutal death kinda thing to be honest. Both Guts and Berserker dieing.


Really? I know a lot of anime characters who fight against "gods". But I'm not familiar with any who go up against omnipotent ones that often. I'm not arguing, but maybe you could give me some direction? I'd like to check them out.

Except Guts doesn't know about God. All he' after are the God Hands, And Griffith.

[Anteros]

That is indeed a problem.

I picture it leading to a mutal death kinda thing to be honest. Both Guts and Berserker dieing.



Except Guts doesn't know about God. All he' after are the God Hands, And Griffith.

He may not know about him, but it's pretty clear that he is going to end up facing it. Also, it clearly said that Griffith is pretty much God's avatar, with all of his power.

Also, Re: RPG characters. I think we all know that RPG characters are on a completely different power level than anything else. I mean, middling powered final fantasy characters repeatedly show planet destroying levels of power in cut scenes. Their powers always vary wildly depending on how strong they currently need to be, and although some animes are subject to this as well (stupid DBZ, ruining it for everyone.) You don't tend to reference them in Vs. threads because of how broken and silly they are.

[Matar]

He may not know about him, but it's pretty clear that he is going to end up facing it. Also, it clearly said that Griffith is pretty much God's avatar, with all of his power.

But... where... wha... when did it? Dude, "God" in Berserk is the manifestation of all of mankinds evils and desires. And where does it say that? What volume, and chapter?

[Rutee]

I don't think RPGs are usually that far above or beyond Shonen Anime, really.

[Matar]

FALCON....PUNCH!!!!


I don't think RPGs are usually that far above or beyond Shonen Anime, really.

Nawt really. RPG's vary in power, because well... that's just what it does >_>. Bombs doing less damage then a sword swipe, ect. I mean, just look at FF7 and Seph's attack that blows up alot of planets. It's pure fluff >_>

[Anteros]

Yet it still happens sadly. Personally I can picture a guy who can take out a solar system with a sword going up against a god figure a lot easier than someone like Guts who is basically just a normal guy with overcompensation issues.

And I would link you the chapter except for the fact that Onemanga was asked to remove everything published by darkhorse. If I find another site I'll link it, but I don't own the books.

It's one of the ones where Griffith talks to God though, obviously.

And I didn't say that it IS the Christian god or anything. Just that it seems to be on that power level of omniscience/omnipotence.

[Matar]

Volume 13, chapter 83. And I don't think you understood it properly. The god is a manifestation of all human darkness, ect. And it's not all-knowing or all powerful. For example, Guts was supposed to die, and didn't.

And Griffith is the Chosen One, but not really God himself.

[nothingclever]

It's been forever since I read Berserk and I haven't seen anything past the part where the evil Sultan/whatever of the Eastern army is going to use a transformation ritual to consume all life/evil/whatever in the area and become something greater but I don't remember Guts ever having to fight God at all.

The Godhand are just really strong demons and they obviously aren't that powerful since they cannot freely act in Guts' material world because they need someone to willingly activate the Behelit and sacrifice something to appear. They also apparently needed Griffith for their plans to work and at least one of them wanted Guts to join them even though they already had Griffith.

Anyways, Guts' sword became supernatural partly by just killing tons of demons and he and his sword are legendary in his world. I just finished reading a brief wiki entry on the definition of a Noble Phantasm and I think his sword is epic enough to be one since he's used it for almost every single battle he's ever had and killed demon armies. He may have had a replacement between his adolescent years and afterwards though when he meets a smith who shows him the dragon slaying sword he designed though.

[Kojiro Kakita]

On the question of whether to count Guts sword as a Noble Phantasm, I would have to say no.

If memory serves the anime (possibly the game, but not entirely sure) mentions that the iconic weapons of the hero usually becomes a Noble Phantasm after the character has died, and passed on to legend.

The only Noble Phantasm that is one while the user is still alive is Bazzett's weapon from HA. (However, I could be wrong here because I cannot remember if Ciel-sempai's Seven Seals counts as a NP)

@Rutee:
I think you are right. The Twelve Labors provides Heracles with 12 resurrections. So 12 + original life does equal 13.

[Matar]

Wasn't the Dragon Slayer a weapon of legend even before Gut's got it though?

[nothingclever]

It was legendary in that it was a historic event when the smith made it and everyone was amazed by its brutal look but the smith is still alive when Guts gets it because he gave it to him. I think he does die though.

Guts kills way more demons after he gets it then before so it has epic/iconic value. Also Guts is marked for death by the Godhand and he is between the worlds of the spirit and material which is why he can see and kill spirits so you could argue that since he should be dead that he counts as being dead to make his weapon a noble phantasm. If his death brand can allow him to interact with other worlds it may be sufficient to let him be called living dead. It also gives him super strength, speed and endurance since he was superhuman before he got the cursed armor and the Skull Knight/Godhand said he was becoming "something more." It's implied that the death brand is normally supposed to be able to kill regular humans even if the demons drawn to the victim don't.

[Rutee]

On the question of whether to count Guts sword as a Noble Phantasm, I would have to say no.

If memory serves the anime (possibly the game, but not entirely sure) mentions that the iconic weapons of the hero usually becomes a Noble Phantasm after the character has died, and passed on to legend.

The only Noble Phantasm that is one while the user is still alive is Bazzett's weapon from HA. (However, I could be wrong here because I cannot remember if Ciel-sempai's Seven Seals counts as a NP)

@Rutee:
I think you are right. The Twelve Labors provides Heracles with 12 resurrections. So 12 + original life does equal 13.

Well, the question isn't whether Dragon Slayer is a Noble Phantasm, but whether it's as powerful as one. It's too denying, in my mind, to say ONLY Noble Phantasms can affect Berserker. More interesting to say the /weapon/ has to be that powerful as a magical implement. In any case, while it's true that NPs aren't usually formed while the bearer is alive, what matters more then the wielder's death is the implement's legend (Gilgamesh gets to cheat here, since the weapons in Gate of Babylon gained fame under other names)

And no, I'm wrong. Godhand: The Twelve Labors gives him 11 ressurections for a total of 12 lives.

Anyway, if Dragon Slayer is specifically forged to strip the protections of divine entities, it may be capable of breaking past Godhand's immunity anyway. I genuinely don't know Berserk well enough to say, but it's not unknown for Noble Phantasms to interact based on other stats (Particularly not Divinity; Enkidu also grows more powerful as the target's ranks in Divinity rise.)

[Drascin]

Wasn't the Dragon Slayer a weapon of legend even before Gut's got it though?

Nope. It was intended to be, being specifically crafted to slay teorethically nonexistant, almost-divine beasts of myth. But this was what kept it basically unused (well, that and the fact no-f*ing-one was able to move the thing) - no one felt the need to use a Dragonslayer without Dragons around.

Myself, with my limited knowledge of both universes, would say that Guts stands a pretty good chance, if only because his arsenal has been devoted precisely to destroying divine beings, and that's the kind of power our particular pissed-off version of Heracles is protected by, so Berserker's hugest trump-card is moot. Still, it's very much in the air. Berserker is ungodly fast on top of his strength, I'd say even more than Guts (who is already well into inhuman ranges in this respect), and his body seems built to withstand a lot of abuse even without the protection of his 12 extra lives, while Guts has to rely on his rather dangerous Berserk Armor to keep fighting past certain points.

I'd still probably give it to Guts, though, but mostly for plot reasons - after all, Berserker is eminently a mook, even if a really powered one, while Guts is not only the (kind of) hero, but the purest personification of Screw Destiny ever. It's even specifically stated as his sole superpower not obtained via Charles Atlas. It makes all the dramatic sense in the world to win, and so, per Narrativium, he'll scrape a desperate win and will spend the next week in bed with Pack healing him and putting his bones back into place, and admonishing him for being so goddamned suicidal :smalltongue:.

[nothingclever]

The Dragon Slayer had no stated special qualities until Guts started using it.
The story of the weapon is that one day the King/noble/whatever had a contest to see which smith could make the best dragon slaying sword.
The smith Guts meets makes an extremely large sword that people consider brutish and end up ridiculing.
There's no magic or anti-divine stuff involved in its making.
It is only a very well made mundane sword when it is created.

Currently because Guts is able to interact with both worlds the sword has taken this quality as well and can damage spirits and magical beings like the evil Sultan in his flaming face form.

[Rutee]

I'd still probably give it to Guts, though, but mostly for plot reasons - after all, Berserker is eminently a mook
Uh. What? He's a mook in the sense that Fezzik was a mook maybe; Mooks are faceless, storyless, nameless. Berserker is none of the above.

[Drascin]

Uh. What? He's a mook in the sense that Fezzik was a mook maybe; Mooks are faceless, storyless, nameless. Berserker is none of the above.

Alright then, call him an Elite Mook, a Dragon, or a miniboss, as you prefer. Still, he was not really half as developed as he could be (I mean, even Lancer gets more develoment than him), and his role was only being a very very big and very very scary executioner arm (and sorta-kinda pet... thing in her eyes) for Illyasviel, except maybe for those last fifteen seconds after being Excalibur'd in the face. I do understand this is mainly because of the whole berserkization thing, but still leaves him in a rather bad place as far as "important, relatable antagonists" go :smalltongue:.

[Drascin]

Gah, stupid doubleposts.

[bluish_wolf]

Alright then, call him an Elite Mook, a Dragon, or a miniboss, as you prefer. Still, he was not really half as developed as he could be (I mean, even Lancer gets more develoment than him), and his role was only being a very very big and very very scary executioner arm (and sorta-kinda pet... thing in her eyes) for Illyasviel, except maybe for those last fifteen seconds after being Excalibur'd in the face. I do understand this is mainly because of the whole berserkization thing, but still leaves him in a rather bad place as far as "important, relatable antagonists" go :smalltongue:.

Just out of curiosity, was Fate the only story arc you completed?

[Drascin]

Just out of curiosity, was Fate the only story arc you completed?

Fate completed and UBW progressing fast when I manage to get the time (dunno why, but I don't find Fate as interesting as Tsukihime or Kyoukai, so I kinda keep putting it off). Why? Does Berserker get some uber-moment of development that would contradict what I said at the ending of UBW or in Heaven's Feel? That would, admittedly, be cool. Lancer already got a really awesome moment, so I guess it's only due :smalltongue:

[Rutee]

There's a very "Dawwww" moment with him and Ilya in UBW, and Ilya is responsible for the defeat of Dark Berserker in Heaven's Feel. IIRC, anyway.

Besides which, the argument that "He's the Dragon, so he can't do well against the hero" is silly. Taken to its logical extreme, that means Etna can't beat up.. oh let's say King Arthur :P

[Drascin]

There's a very "Dawwww" moment with him and Ilya in UBW, and Ilya is responsible for the defeat of Dark Berserker in Heaven's Feel. IIRC, anyway.

Will withhold further comment until finishing UBW and getting some more info on Heaven's Feel, then. Up to now, he's been basically "really dangerous (but cute to her) pet to Illya", but that doesn't really give him more than say, Friedrich from StrikerS :smalltongue: (to those who don't know, Fried is a dragon one of the mains has as pet and weapon).


Besides which, the argument that "He's the Dragon, so he can't do well against the hero" is silly. Taken to its logical extreme, that means Etna can't beat up.. oh let's say King Arthur :P

You should really reread that last paragraph of my post that started all this and try to tell me where, exactly, you seemed to ascertain any hint of seriousness, so I can edit it :smalltongue:. Of course it's silly. That was like half the point!

'Sides, I was treating a Vs thread, inherently a comparative affair, as a narrative - and particularly, a parodic narrative - one. Do you really think I would do that for what I wanted to be a persuasive argument? Come on, give me at least a little credit :smallwink:. My opinion of the thing is just the previous paragraph: this is a toss-up, and basically depends on luck and who manages to get the first decisive blow in.

Also, it would depend a lot on what version of Etna we're talking about. Disgaea 1 version would have some troubles beating the Plot Armor blessings the man has on :smalltongue:. Well, until she just started detonating enough prinnies around him to sink him, Plot Armor and all, into the Earth's mantle. She's just cruel and clever enough to try such a thing. Disgaea 2... well, she'd just get fed up with the guy in about five seconds of him ineffectively trying to scratch her defensive barriers and blow up Earth or at least a significant part of it, and be done with it. Ahh, the wonders of level grinding :smallbiggrin:.

[Rutee]

She can shoot Sentai heroes during their transformation sequence. I'm pretty sure she can break plot armor :smallwink:

[Drascin]

She can shoot Sentai heroes during their transformation sequence. I'm pretty sure she can break plot armor :smallwink:

If you count the Prism Rangers as "heroes", or as actual "Sentai", now that we're at it, your standards are significantly lower than mine :smallbiggrin:.

You do however have a point in that she seems to be handy finding ways to subvert the expectations, and this would probably give her an edge while disarming him of that plethora of heroic prophecies and enchantments (between all versions of the story, just how many things has that man had cast on him in a theoretically low-magic world?) he has on. Or just sink him in lava as I mentioned. Whichever suits your fancy. My way has the added advantage of meaning the demise of a lot of prinnies, too :smalltongue:

...And is it just me, or are we going horribly offtopic? :smallredface: