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View Full Version : Pun-Pun: logical flaw in use of Manipulate Form



hamishspence
2008-05-05, 04:58 AM
It explicitly says: attribute adjustments are up to the maximum normal attributes of the Sarrukh. So you cannot actually use manipulate form to boost stats into the stratosphere.

What you can do is give yourself spell like abilities, but they are still based on your hit dice and Charisma (18 for sarrukh). Thats based on assumption that wildshaping into a sarrukh gives you access to Manipulate Form, plus you can use it on yourself, which raises question about why the sample Sarrukh characters haven't already done it.

Am I missing something?

leperkhaun
2008-05-05, 05:06 AM
It explicitly says: attribute adjustments are up to the maximum normal attributes of the Sarrukh. So you cannot actually use manipulate form to boost stats into the stratosphere.

What you can do is give yourself spell like abilities, but they are still based on your hit dice and Charisma (18 for sarrukh). Thats based on assumption that wildshaping into a sarrukh gives you access to Manipulate Form, plus you can use it on yourself, which raises question about why the sample Sarrukh characters haven't already done it.

Am I missing something?

because that was not the original intent of the ability, pun pun was an exersice to show how broken it was and just to see if it could be done.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 05:12 AM
I see all these claims that you can have a character with infinite stats, look at the rules, and notice that don't actually allow that. That is why I was puzzled.

Now going overboard with spell-like abilities might be fun, but their power is still limited by the fact that Caster level is based on Hit dice. On the other hand a 17HD kobold with Wish at will (SLAs don't use XP penalties) would be...alarming.

Ecalsneerg
2008-05-05, 05:18 AM
By RAW, Manipulate Form allows you to give yourselves abilities which don't exist in the game.

And that's how it works. Pun-Pun has every ability which could feasibly exist including the (Ex) ability of stupidly high stats.

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-05, 05:19 AM
Pun-Pun uses Manipulate Form on his Familiar to give it Manipulate Form to use on him. The maximum for the attributes depends on your view of "maximum"- if using an SLA to get bigger (and therefore higher strength) increases your "normal maximum" stats, you can then bestow them on the familiar (with Manipulate Form SLA your familiar gave you). The Familiar then becomes Gargantuan, rasing its stats, and giving its Strength to Pun-Pun.

It all depends on that "normal maximum".

Talic
2008-05-05, 05:20 AM
The Sarrukh can still grant any ability, including Divine Rank 0.

That should be enough to Alter Reality on the self.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 05:34 AM
A stat is not an ability: they are described differently, in different sections of the Manipulate Form rules.

Manipulate Form is an example of the sort of thing where DM Fiat comes it: the limits are not defined, so the DM defines them. Same principle applies to Wish: "I wish to be a demigod" would not be allowed, because demigodhood is way above the typical power level of Wish.

If the Errata for Serpent Kingdoms says "any ability up to Divine Rank 0", its a pretty poor errata.

similarly, if you ask for an ability not listed in the game, its DMs decision how powerful that ability can be, or if it is available. Basically, to get Pun-Pun, you need a co-operative DM, which sort of misses the point. If DM is that co-operative there are more fun things to do.

Justyn
2008-05-05, 05:37 AM
The Sarrukh can still grant any ability, including Divine Rank 0.

That should be enough to Alter Reality on the self.

I take it that either you do not have Serpent Kingdoms or Deities and Demigods or have not read them in a while.

Firstly: a Sarrukhs' Manipulate Form abilty allows them to alter ability scores, bodies, and add or remove extraordinary abilities, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities.

Secondly: Divine Rank is likened to character level, which the Manipulate Form ability has no control over. Also, all Salient Divine Abilities require a Divine Rank of at least 1; and I'm no Mathamancer, but I think that 0 is less than 1.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 05:44 AM
If you extend it all the way to granting templates (you probably shouldn't) cheese awaits, especially with the paragon creature template. Push stats up to maximum sarrukh stats, the add template. But that is predicated on the DM allowing Manipulate Form to add templates: sensible DM would not (and maybe require you to have actually seen a sarrukh to change into its form anyway: they are rare beasties)

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 05:49 AM
If you extend it all the way to granting templates (you probably shouldn't) cheese awaits, especially with the paragon creature template. Push stats up to maximum sarrukh stats, the add template. But that is predicated on the DM allowing Manipulate Form to add templates: sensible DM would not (and maybe require you to have actually seen a sarrukh to change into its form anyway: they are rare beasties)

Err ... DM? Sorry, but have you read the original thread?

Starbuck_II
2008-05-05, 05:53 AM
I take it that either you do not have Serpent Kingdoms or Deities and Demigods or have not read them in a while.

Firstly: a Sarrukhs' Manipulate Form abilty allows them to alter ability scores, bodies, and add or remove extraordinary abilities, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities.

Secondly: Divine Rank is likened to character level, which the Manipulate Form ability has no control over. Also, all Salient Divine Abilities require a Divine Rank of at least 1; and I'm no Mathamancer, but I think that 0 is less than 1.

Once you have Divine Rank 0, I'm pretty sure you start getting followers and gaining power till you count as 1. (been a while since I read Pun-Pun's tactics).

Armads
2008-05-05, 06:02 AM
I take it that either you do not have Serpent Kingdoms or Deities and Demigods or have not read them in a while.

Firstly: a Sarrukhs' Manipulate Form abilty allows them to alter ability scores, bodies, and add or remove extraordinary abilities, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities.

Secondly: Divine Rank is likened to character level, which the Manipulate Form ability has no control over. Also, all Salient Divine Abilities require a Divine Rank of at least 1; and I'm no Mathamancer, but I think that 0 is less than 1.



At will, a sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, it can cause one alteration of its choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconcious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 22 Fortitude dave negates both the change and the unconciousness. Sarrukh are immune to this effect.
A sarrukh may use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. It may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing the overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corresponding score. A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it.
The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanant. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind.
(this is from the Pun-pun thread)

Nowhere does it state that it's the sarrukh's normal ability score. Also, since you can get any Ex ability, even those that don't exist in books, you can give yourself an ability called "Gain Divine Rank (Ex)": Whenever Pun-Pun says something, he gains a divine rank.

Or are there any problems with this (besides the fact that no sane DM will ever allow this)?

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-05, 06:05 AM
Ice Assassin SLA to make Gods which make you into Emissaries (giving you Divine Rank 1), then you giv your Divine Rank to a squirrel, get another rank, give it to a squirrel. Do that until you have as many Divine Ranks as you want, then call them back from the Squirrels to become a Divine Rank several hundred Overdeity.

To be honest, you don't even need the NI stats with that- if you had Divine Rank 30, you get to add it to prtty much everything...

Eldariel
2008-05-05, 06:10 AM
But you DO get infinite stats. What you use is a loop of changing your familiars size, assuming its new strength, changing its size back, giving it your strength and repeating. Once you have arbitrarily high Str, you can move it onto the other abilities. Just read the Pun Pun-thread. It's read by all the hardcore optimizers in the world; chances are it's legal.

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-05, 06:15 AM
I know you can, I'm just saying you don't need to. Plus it's easier to just get a decent Divine Rank and Alter Reality to fit your whims.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 06:16 AM
It said: Maximum equal to the sarrukhs corresponding Score. so its pretty useless to use on yourself to increase your abilty scores, since rule does not let you do that. Using it on others, limit is still your ability scores.

I looked at the rules for the sarrukh, rather than full thread: anything that exceeds what a normal sarrukh can do with it should be ruled out by the DM.

Same principle applies to a character who has used Wish a lot: cannot be considered as a "Real" character if it has powers that required DMs cooperation to have.

I saw Pun-pun not as a flaw in the rules, as much as a flaw in the DM: DMS should not let players make up extraordinary or supernatural abilities without their input.

Griffin131
2008-05-05, 06:24 AM
It said: Maximum equal to the sarrukhs corresponding Score. so its pretty useless to use on yourself to increase your abilty scores, since rule does not let you do that. Using it on others, limit is still your ability scores.
Use MF on your snake familiar, giving it STR equal to you.
Grow your snake familiar.
Give your snake familiar MF.
Direct MF to give you STR equal to it.
Dismiss Grow on your snake familiar.
Start at step 1.
Repeat for other stats.

Artemician
2008-05-05, 06:25 AM
It said: Maximum equal to the sarrukhs corresponding Score. so its pretty useless to use on yourself to increase your abilty scores, since rule does not let you do that. Using it on others, limit is still your ability scores.

I looked at the rules for the sarrukh, rather than full thread: anything that exceeds what a normal sarrukh can do with it should be ruled out by the DM.

Same principle applies to a character who has used Wish a lot: cannot be considered as a "Real" character if it has powers that required DMs cooperation to have.

I saw Pun-pun not as a flaw in the rules, as much as a flaw in the DM: DMS should not let players make up extraordinary or supernatural abilities without their input.

Why are you trying to apply Rule 0 to a thought experiment?

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-05, 06:29 AM
Use MF on your snake familiar, giving it STR equal to you.
Grow your snake familiar.
Give your snake familiar MF.
Direct MF to give you STR equal to it.
Dismiss Grow on your snake familiar.
Start at step 1.
Repeat for other stats.

This Repeat to Other Stats requires either a method to increase other stats (Bear's Endurance style spells?) or a way to use your Str for something else (Void Disciple trick).

Kurald Galain
2008-05-05, 06:39 AM
I looked at the rules for the sarrukh, rather than full thread: anything that exceeds what a normal sarrukh can do with it should be ruled out by the DM.
I'm reasonably certain that anything resembling Pun-Pun would be ruled out by pretty much every DM, regardless of what the rules say :smallwink:

Anyway, I don't have the books here but I believe the trick is that you can increase stats to the Sarrukh's maximum, and then use something (e.g. bull's strength) to increase that maximum.

Assuming my familiar is a Sarrukh with strength 20. I ask it to boost my strength to 20. Then I polymorph into a sarrukh, and the familiar into a kobold. I cast enlarge or bull's strength or whatever on myself to boost my strength to 24 or more. Then I use the Sarrukh's ability to boost my familiar's strength to 24. I dispel everything. Now my familiar is a Sarrukh with strength 24, which he can bestow on me. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Arbitrarity
2008-05-05, 06:40 AM
Also, if fate link/blood of the martyr do the same type of damage to the participants as the recipient takes, you might be able to pull an infinite damage (electric) CON-boosting loop. IIRC.

So, rather than arbitrarily high stats, actual, literal, infinite stats.

Mr. Friendly
2008-05-05, 06:49 AM
Quite frankly, I find the LoP's "Behold!" trick to be much worse and easier to get into a game.

Talic
2008-05-05, 06:49 AM
It said: Maximum equal to the sarrukhs corresponding Score. so its pretty useless to use on yourself to increase your abilty scores, since rule does not let you do that. Using it on others, limit is still your ability scores.
Yes. So, I do the following: Touch my familiar, choose to increase its size. It gains corresponding str bonuses for increased size. Also give it the ability I have.
Step 2. my familiar touches me. boosts my strength to its strength. It then does another touch, increasing my size. I gain corresponding bonuses to strength. I then touch my familiar, shrinking it. I then touch again, increasing its strength to mine. I then touch it again, increasing its size.

See?

I looked at the rules for the sarrukh, rather than full thread: anything that exceeds what a normal sarrukh can do with it should be ruled out by the DM.
Yes, and anyone who tries to create 40 Nightsticks to use with their DMM should be banned. But "should" and "allowed by RAW" don't always meet.
Same principle applies to a character who has used Wish a lot: cannot be considered as a "Real" character if it has powers that required DMs cooperation to have.Then all characters aren't real characters. The DM has the power to allow or disallow any sourcebook. Thus, all characters require DM cooperation.
I saw Pun-pun not as a flaw in the rules, as much as a flaw in the DM: DMS should not let players make up extraordinary or supernatural abilities without their input.All allowable broken rules are flaws in the DM. You are arguing Oberoni fallacy.

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-05, 06:53 AM
Quite frankly, I find the LoP's "Behold!" trick to be much worse and easier to get into a game.

What is this, for the non-initiated?

Griffin131
2008-05-05, 06:58 AM
This Repeat to Other Stats requires either a method to increase other stats (Bear's Endurance style spells?) or a way to use your Str for something else (Void Disciple trick).

And? Theres a buff for every stat, and you can give your familiar and yourself a way to cast them at will.

Mr. Friendly
2008-05-05, 07:03 AM
What is this, for the non-initiated?

Requires level 6ish total I think, for it to start.

You need to have PsyWarrior or Psion levels. You need the feat Metamorphic Transfer - twice. MMT lets you gain Su abilities of forms you change into, via Polymorph and such. MMT1 you choose "Antimagic Eye" of Beholder and MMT2 you choose "Eye Rays" of Beholder.

You then either pay a caster, buy a scroll and UMD or some other method... and BEHOLD! you have Polymorph any Object on you... form of... a BEHOLDER!

If you have a high enough INT, it will be Permanent duration. (Still dispellable though..)

Now you qualify for the Beholder Mage PrC from LoM. Every level in it gives you 2 Sorcerer Caster Levels and ultimately allows you to cast 10 spells per round as free actions.

It's a lot of work for... well I would say nothing that impressive, but thats just cool honestly.

Eldariel
2008-05-05, 07:10 AM
Pun-Pun is level 1, any race. You just need to summon Pazuzu through the Knowledge-check and get started. Read Character Optimization Index over at Wizards for all about Pun-Pun.

Now, you need to realize that Pun-Pun was never meant to be played. The point of Pun-Pun is ironically the opposite; to put an end to all attempts at making the best possible D&D character. Basically, Pun-Pun wins D&D. So all who're ranting how Pun-Pun would get Rule 0d by all DMs, that's not the point! It's not meant to be allowed by any DMs. It's what we call Theorethical Optimization; optimization just for the sake of optimization and for the "just 'cause I can"-factor.

Aquillion
2008-05-05, 08:07 AM
It explicitly says: attribute adjustments are up to the maximum normal attributes of the Sarrukh. So you cannot actually use manipulate form to boost stats into the stratosphere.

What you can do is give yourself spell like abilities, but they are still based on your hit dice and Charisma (18 for sarrukh). Thats based on assumption that wildshaping into a sarrukh gives you access to Manipulate Form, plus you can use it on yourself, which raises question about why the sample Sarrukh characters haven't already done it.

Am I missing something?
The definitive thread on Pun-Pun here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=491801) explains most of your misconceptions. There is a way around the stat limitation (somewhat convoluted, but basically it only cares about your current stat, and lets you use that to change someone's base stat -- so you use something to temporarily boost your stat, then raise the base stat of your familiar to the new total, then dispel your booster and have your familiar change your base stat to the new total, then cast the booster again... you get the idea. Read the thread for the details.)

Manipulate Form does not work on Sarrukh. However, the argument is that you can use it to grant any ability, including manipulate form. So, you turn into a Sarrukh, grant manipulate form to your familiar, turn back into a kobold, and your familiar can now grant manipulate form back to you. After that you can use it yourself because you're not a Sarrukh anymore.

However, I have a much more basic problem with the Pun-Pun trick. It comes down to this:
Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corresponding score. A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it.Pun-Pun depends on interpreting that to mean that a Sarrukh can grant any ex, su, or spell-like ability. I argue that that interpretation is simply absurd. It plainly isn't RAI, but I don't think it's RAW, either -- the rules simply don't specify what abilities a Sarrukh can grant. That doesn't mean you get to just pull any abilities you want out of thin air; it means that it's DM call, like anything else the books don't specify.

It is still possible to raise your stats arbitrarily high (though the trick is much, much harder and more slow, since you will need two people capable of turning into Sarrukhs, and they'll have to take turns changing back and forth to become valid targets for manipulate form, and you'll have to actually cast the stat boosters instead of just granting yourself the ability to cast them at will as a spell-like ability). But it isn't nearly as broken as it's made out to be.

Talic
2008-05-05, 08:20 AM
However, I have a much more basic problem with the Pun-Pun trick. It comes down to this:Pun-Pun depends on interpreting that to mean that a Sarrukh can grant any ex, su, or spell-like ability. I argue that that interpretation is simply absurd. It plainly isn't RAI, but I don't think it's RAW, either -- the rules simply don't specify what abilities a Sarrukh can grant. That doesn't mean you get to just pull any abilities you want out of thin air; it means that it's DM call, like anything else the books don't specify.

The default for unspecified choices is "any currently existing XXX of this type is legal, unless specified otherwise."

After all, weapon focus says to "Choose one type of weapon." It doesn't specify ANY weapon, so, by the argument that the Sarrukh doesn't say "any ability", (thus, by RAW, doesn't grant any ability) then Weapon focus doesn't specify any weapon, so it's not RAW to choose any weapon with weapon finesse. Check with your DM to see which weapons are ok, and which are OP with Weapon Focus.

The Sarrukh was meant to be a DM only critter. Players found a way to exploit it. That doesn't mean that the creature's ability should be weaker.

Thus, using the Sarrukh's ability, you could grant yourself all the vorpal swords you wanted, boost your stats, get the Tarrasque's form of regeneration, an undead's immunities, immunity to every elemental damage type, a swarm's immunity to weapon damage etc etc etc.

monty
2008-05-05, 08:50 AM
Just give yourself the (Ex) ability to increase your stats at will. Not that hard.

MorkaisChosen
2008-05-05, 08:59 AM
You can't do that if it's not a preexisting ability...

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-05, 09:15 AM
You can't do that if it's not a preexisting ability...Actually, you can. The Pun-Pun build right now sticks to pre-written abilities, but you can technically write your own. The Sarrukh is just that broken.

Swooper
2008-05-05, 09:55 AM
Requires level 6ish total I think, for it to start.

You need to have PsyWarrior or Psion levels. You need the feat Metamorphic Transfer - twice. MMT lets you gain Su abilities of forms you change into, via Polymorph and such. MMT1 you choose "Antimagic Eye" of Beholder and MMT2 you choose "Eye Rays" of Beholder.

You then either pay a caster, buy a scroll and UMD or some other method... and BEHOLD! you have Polymorph any Object on you... form of... a BEHOLDER!

If you have a high enough INT, it will be Permanent duration. (Still dispellable though..)

Now you qualify for the Beholder Mage PrC from LoM. Every level in it gives you 2 Sorcerer Caster Levels and ultimately allows you to cast 10 spells per round as free actions.

It's a lot of work for... well I would say nothing that impressive, but thats just cool honestly.
That's not the broken part. Combine it with Ur-Priest and Mystic Theurge those two together, then we're talking. I think you can get full sorcerer and full cleric spellcasting (minus domains) that way as well as... 13th level psion manifesting I think.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 10:51 AM
"Anything thats not explicitly forbidden is permitted?" Not a great philosophy regarding rules. Wish has no specified upper limit, but it has recommendations as to what is too much. Same principle should apply to other powers.

Open ended powers come under DMs decision. So, for that matter, do epic powers (all epic spells have to be approved by DM according to Epic Handbook)

Solo
2008-05-05, 11:06 AM
"Anything thats not explicitly forbidden is permitted?" Not a great philosophy regarding rules. Wish has no specified upper limit, but it has recommendations as to what is too much. Same principle should apply to other powers.

Open ended powers come under DMs decision. So, for that matter, do epic powers (all epic spells have to be approved by DM according to Epic Handbook)

For the last time, pay attention.

This is not about something that would be ever used in a game or permitted by a DM, this is about making something by RAW that is obscenely powerful.

The creator of Pun-Pun even says the character is not meant to be used in a game. It is just an example of how broken a character can be made.

I think I speak for all of us when I say

"GET OVER IT!"

Talic
2008-05-05, 11:29 AM
"Anything thats not explicitly forbidden is permitted?" Not a great philosophy regarding rules. Wish has no specified upper limit, but it has recommendations as to what is too much. Same principle should apply to other powers.

Open ended powers come under DMs decision. So, for that matter, do epic powers (all epic spells have to be approved by DM according to Epic Handbook)

Wish does have recommendations, yes. In fact, it lists them. Does the Sarrukh?

Looks like someone shot themself in the foot.

Yes, epic spells must be approved. So do feats. Yes, it is within the DM's power to say that players cannot choose Power Attack. Or Druid. Does that mean that no build ever can use power attack or druid?

The point is, Hamish, my dear, dear, misguided man, that every single thing in the Multiverse of the campaign setting that a DM creates requires DM approval. You can't argue that one thing shouldn't be allowed because it requires DM approval, when EVERYTHING requires DM approval. By that logic, nothing is allowed.

And that leads to 5 people, sitting around a table, with a few hundred bucks worth of D&D books... Doing nothing.

You're saying that Pun-Pun doesn't work because a good DM wouldn't let it. That is Oberoni Fallacy, as crystal clear as it gets. If the only reason something doesn't work is because of a good DM, then, by RAW, it works.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 11:31 AM
Thing was, it was my first look at the actual Pun-Pun Rules, after hearing all this talk using it as a term for brokenness in game, Which is why I found it puzzling.

Overly powerful casters I can understand people complaining about. Things which pretty much require DMs co-operation to get that broken, not so much.

Solo
2008-05-05, 11:33 AM
OP'd casters also need DM cooperation.

"Oh look, your 20th level wizard meets Vecna. Have fun serving as his buttmonkey for all eternity."

Eldariel
2008-05-05, 11:37 AM
Thing was, it was my first look at the actual Pun-Pun Rules, after hearing all this talk using it as a term for brokenness in game, Which is why I found it puzzling.

Overly powerful casters I can understand people complaining about. Things which pretty much require DMs co-operation to get that broken, not so much.

Both of those work if DM allows everything that's written in the books. It doesn't require DM allowing any ambiguitous wordings and it doesn't require DM coming up with new abilities. All it requires is for DM to allow what's written, aka. Rules As Written. That basically places Pun-Pun on the same line as normal characters in the 'allowed'-spectrum. It just happens to not be meant to play; the maker intends for players not to play it and for DMs to ban it. It's strictly a thought exercise dedicated to figuring out the most powerful build you can make with the books available going by rules as they are written.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 11:45 AM
Some things require more permission than others- there is a difference between the sort of thing a DM actually has to witness becoming broken before he bans it, and the sort of thing you would expect him (or her) not to miss, in fact, to have to actively make a decision to include. Its a continuum, and asserting that everything is DMs permission misses the point.

Some things have a statement saying, in effect: "Warning, Breakable. Watch closely" (epic magic, wish spells) And some don't. Which is why it recommends ad-hoc DCs for epic spells, for example, or that DMs step in if wishes are too powerful. Because these are the sort of things that it actually tels you require adjudication, and that DMs should not just say "ok, you created the epic spell, you can use it" but examine them on a case by case basis.

AtomicKitKat
2008-05-05, 11:56 AM
My main issue is with the awful name.

Sarrukh just needs whatever that thing is that prevents monsters from being mimiced(or turned into Quasi-Deities, which essentially, they are all but spelled out as).

Pazuzu Wish at level 1 is annoying, but not unbeatable("WTF? A level 1 Commoner? Your soul is worthless to me! *Smite!*")

LoP's builds are hilarious, and sometimes still permissible. Beholder trick is semi-broken, but you must remember that you can only cast 1 spell of each circle(1 eye for 0th, another for 1st, all the way to 9th) per round. Still, Burning Hands with one, followed by Cone of Cold. Instant breakage. Literally.:smallbiggrin: Oh yeah, and you're subject to the limitations on Beholder "facing"(no more than 3 eyes per 90? degree arc).

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 12:06 PM
One could claim that since the wording throughout is "A sarrukh may..." creatures temporarily polymorphed, shapechanged, or wildshaped, do not count, so cannot ever use this supernatural ability. However that might contradict the rules for use of abilities when in different forms. However I would be sorely tempted to use this if someone tried it on me.

"Its a theoretical exercise" Maybe, But I have a horrible feeling that some players will (or already have) try and pull it off on DMs for real, if the DMs haven't heard of it and are relaxed about what books they allow in game. Which tends to lead to hard feelings.

Arakune
2008-05-05, 12:35 PM
One could claim that since the wording throughout is "A sarrukh may..." creatures temporarily polymorphed, shapechanged, or wildshaped, do not count, so cannot ever use this supernatural ability. However that might contradict the rules for use of abilities when in different forms. However I would be sorely tempted to use this if someone tried it on me.

"Its a theoretical exercise" Maybe, But I have a horrible feeling that some players will (or already have) try and pull it off on DMs for real, if the DMs haven't heard of it and are relaxed about what books they allow in game. Which tends to lead to hard feelings.

???????????????

Player1: ... and then I do that, and that, and that and...
DM: Wait a minute there! Give me that char sheet!
-DM looks, thinks for a while.
DM: Looks legal.
Player1: YAY!
DM: ... and then the multiverse implodes and the creation are reseted. The world, history and gods are exactly the same as the last creation, except that the sarruhk doesn't exist and the manipulate form ability or anything remotely alike don't work.
Player1: That's not nice!
DM: That's the beauty of it :smallwink:

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 12:40 PM
"Its a theoretical exercise" Maybe, But I have a horrible feeling that some players will (or already have) try and pull it off on DMs for real, if the DMs haven't heard of it and are relaxed about what books they allow in game. Which tends to lead to hard feelings.

ITT:people lack reading comprehension.

Theoretical.

Excercise.

Solo
2008-05-05, 12:42 PM
Truly there are none so blind
As those who refuse to see

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 12:47 PM
A bit like that, yes. Sounds like a recipe for an argument.

Ruling that only actual sarrukh can use it, even if players have shapechange or "Attune Supernatural Ability" would be a bit less world breaking. Sometimes DM might simply want a rule change rather than ending the game, if it was a high level campaign vs sarrukh and their minions.

Animefunkmaster
2008-05-05, 12:55 PM
With Raw abilities you do not get infinite stats, but you certainly get negligible stats, as you can loop the combo as many times as you would like.

Edit: I did, however, have a player do this once in my game. I jokingly told him you better watch out for an elf artificer, when he was in the middle of touching his familiar and the familiar was touching him. The rest of the party and I continued with the planned adventure and the game went very well. By the time it was over he gave me a printed out list of abilities he said that he has obtained. I said thankyou, you have just won dnd, care to role up a new character to actually play an adventure?

It should be fairly obvious that this would be impossible to play.

Solo
2008-05-05, 01:39 PM
A bit like that, yes. Sounds like a recipe for an argument.

Ruling that only actual sarrukh can use it, even if players have shapechange or "Attune Supernatural Ability" would be a bit less world breaking. Sometimes DM might simply want a rule change rather than ending the game, if it was a high level campaign vs sarrukh and their minions.

*Sigh*

THAT'S NOT RAW!

THE POINT OF PUN PUN IS NOT TO PRODUCE SOMETHING THAT IS PLAYABLE, FOR PELOR'S SAKE! IT IS TO SHOW WHAT CAN HAPPEN BY RAW!

HOUSERULINGS TO RESTRICT IT DO NOT APPLY TO DISCUSSIONS ON HOW PUN PUN'S MECHANICS WORK.

GET OVER IT!

PS. WHY DOES IT SEEM LIKE YOU HAVE HORRIBLE READING COMPREHENSION AND ARE UNABLE TO GRASP THIS SIMPLE POINT?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 02:01 PM
*Sigh*

THAT'S NOT RAW!

THE POINT OF PUN PUN IS NOT TO PRODUCE SOMETHING THAT IS PLAYABLE, FOR PELOR'S SAKE! IT IS TO SHOW WHAT CAN HAPPEN BY RAW!

HOUSERULINGS TO RESTRICT IT DO NOT APPLY TO DISCUSSIONS ON HOW PUN PUN'S MECHANICS WORK.

GET OVER IT!

PS. WHY DOES IT SEEM LIKE YOU HAVE HORRIBLE READING COMPREHENSION AND ARE UNABLE TO GRASP THIS SIMPLE POINT?

Goodness gracious, Solo's transformed into his final form!

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 02:05 PM
Less shouting please.

Yes, Pun-Pun was invented to prove RAW leads to game breakdown, I know that. Doesn't mean that players won't try and do it, or some variant, for real.

RAW is good most of the time, but when it leads to something odd (dying charcters being stabilized by dunking them in buckets) DMs will be replacing it (in this case, not always in all cases) with what they see as Rules as Intended. RAW should not mean that anything not explicitly forbidden is permitted.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 02:07 PM
Less shouting please.

Yes, Pun-Pun was invented to prove RAW leads to game breakdown, I know that. Doesn't mean that players won't try and do it, or some variant, for real.

RAW is good most of the time, but when it leads to something odd (dying charcters being stabilized by dunking them in buckets) DMs will be replacing it (in this case, not always in all cases) with what they see as Rules as Intended. RAW should not mean that anything not explicitly forbidden is permitted.

Please please please, just read the text in red. Are you going to start blaming Isaac Newton for the deaths of World War One, because without him, there would be no gunnery?

Solo
2008-05-05, 02:11 PM
Should not and Does not are not the same thing.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 02:12 PM
Read the text in red. the only reason i was talking about it at all was it was my first look at the actual Pun-pun rules: wanted to see what all the fuss was about, given some people keep saying "Pun-pun, whenever discussions of powerful character builds start.

Sorry to resurrect a dead topic, but I was new to the whole pun-pun thing.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 02:14 PM
Read the text in red. the only reason i was talking about it at all was it was my first look at the actual Pun-pun rules: wanted to see what all the fuss was about, given some people keep saying "Pun-pun, whenever discussions of powerful character builds start.

Sorry to resurrect a dead topic, but I was new to the whole pun-pun thing.

Actually, if you want powerful, I suggest Monty. (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-690806)

I've always preferred time tricks over stats.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 02:22 PM
Far Realm is listed in MotP as a optional variant plane, and not listed in 3.5 at all. What kind of high powered characters are a bit less dependant on generous DMs? the sort of thing that might be allowed into community play like, say, living greyhawk, before they catch on?

Solo
2008-05-05, 02:22 PM
Goodness gracious, Solo's transformed into his final form!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/sketchisms/loud-howard.jpg

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 02:35 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/sketchisms/loud-howard.jpg

It has fewer spikes, and less brimstone, than one would have thought.

Hamish - far realm is linked into the others, re:Lord of Madness, etc.

There's a ton of stuff that will work in Living Greyhawk, here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=897351) is a collection of the CO boards' finest. Not all of it would slip by, but some would certainly, and one is enough.

Solo
2008-05-05, 02:47 PM
It has fewer spikes, and less brimstone, than one would have thought.


You will now face the wrath of my final final form!

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k313/Stoat_2006/phil.gif

For your insolence, I DARN you to HECK!

You will be doomed to spend an eternity with a group of losers, talking to complete idiots, and suffering from imbecility in general.

In other words, continue on with your life :p

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 02:50 PM
You will now face the wrath of my final final form!

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k313/Stoat_2006/phil.gif

For your insolence, I DARN you to HECK!

You will be doomed to spend an eternity with a group of losers, talking to complete idiots, and suffering from imbecility in general.

In other words, continue on with your life :p

Oh noes!

But yes, that's more fitting of a final form.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 02:57 PM
LoM doesn't provide stats, and the only place that provides stats for the Far Realm also states it is optional. But I get the point.

Just a little reading of the Infinite Loops subjects makes me wince. It seems they tend to be based on homebrew items (as in, ones not already statted out) and rules from multiple splatbooks, though I think some of you have been saying some of these tricks can be do with just the first 3 books. Still, seems like an awful lot of weirdness.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 03:00 PM
LoM doesn't provide stats, and the only place that provides stats for the Far Realm also states it is optional. But I get the point.

Just a little reading of the Infinite Loops subjects makes me wince. It seems they tend to be based on homebrew items (as in, ones not already statted out) and rules from multiple splatbooks, though I think some of you have been saying some of these tricks can be do with just the first 3 books. Still, seems like an awful lot of weirdness.

Shambling mound.

Que?

Frosty
2008-05-05, 03:02 PM
ITT:people lack reading comprehension.

Theoretical.

Excercise.

This is actually kinda funny. The Illiterate Scribe is berating others for lacking reading comprehension :smallwink: The puns...they make themselves in this thread!

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 03:07 PM
This is actually kinda funny. The Illiterate Scribe is berating others for lacking reading comprehension :smallwink: The puns...they make themselves in this thread!

Hey, I had much the same problem in First Person Shooters as 'A Blind Observer'.

They laughed.

Until they got shot in the head.

:3

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 03:08 PM
Maybe its just that I'm used to thinking in terms of the game world, and figuring: if these things actually worked, something would have done them already, so the game world would no longer be the way it is presented as.

but then, for me its more dungeon crawling and meeting interesting NPCs, rather than Achieve Power Overwhelming.

Maybe I should skip discussions on anything featuring content from ChaOp, though some of the names sounded intriguing, when I look them up they seem like the sort of thing never contemplated by the designers as consequences.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 03:17 PM
Maybe its just that I'm used to thinking in terms of the game world, and figuring: if these things actually worked, something would have done them already, so the game world would no longer be the way it is presented as.

Well, our group had an ongoing world where everyone did power up to the hilt. It was interesting to see the effect of that was on the world - it leads to a sort of massive, multi-party Cold War. Fun times.

Also, Vecna, of the Planescape setting, basically is the Batman wizard, as TLN has remarked.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-05-05, 03:22 PM
Shambling mound.

Que?

Temporary bonuses overlap, so there is no possibility of conning an infinite electricity loop.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-05, 03:25 PM
Temporary bonuses overlap, so there is no possibility of conning an infinite electricity loop.

Oh well. Thar still be many a thing on that list.

Chronos
2008-05-05, 03:54 PM
Maybe I should skip discussions on anything featuring content from ChaOp, though some of the names sounded intriguing, when I look them up they seem like the sort of thing never contemplated by the designers as consequences.Well, obviously none of them were ever contemplated by the developers. And some of them, that's reasonable: There are some infinite loops which are constructed out of individual pieces from multiple books, each of which is reasonable and non-broken. But Pun-pun, the developers really should have contemplated. Manipulate Form is just plain broken, forward, backwards, upside-down, and sideways. Whenever you introduce something that insanely powerful into the game, you should at least consider the possibility that the PCs might be able to harness that power, somehow or another. OK, so maybe the folks who wrote the Sarrukh didn't know specifically about Divine Minion, or Assume Supernatural Ability, but there are dozens of different ways to take advantage of it, and even if they couldn't think of any specifically, they should have anticipated the possibility.

hamishspence
2008-05-05, 04:03 PM
I like the sarrukh, and creator races in general, as concepts, but would probably be careful about their use.

I noticed the CharOp users keep spelling it Sarruhk for some reason.

I saw the inclusion of Manipulate Form as an option for DMs to design whatever they like as bodyguards for the sarukh, and have an in game explanation for the powers of the bodyguards. But yes, the ability should have had more clearly defined limitations built in, but then, so should a lot of things from many supplements, so its not the only example.

Bassetking
2008-05-05, 08:05 PM
Less shouting please.

Yes, Pun-Pun was invented to prove RAW leads to game breakdown, I know that. Doesn't mean that players won't try and do it, or some variant, for real.

RAW is good most of the time, but when it leads to something odd (dying charcters being stabilized by dunking them in buckets) DMs will be replacing it (in this case, not always in all cases) with what they see as Rules as Intended. RAW should not mean that anything not explicitly forbidden is permitted.

What's that, News Monster?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/Gojira/morbo.jpg

Theoretical Exercises do not work that way!


LoM doesn't provide stats, and the only place that provides stats for the Far Realm also states it is optional. But I get the point.

Just a little reading of the Infinite Loops subjects makes me wince. It seems they tend to be based on homebrew items (as in, ones not already statted out) and rules from multiple splatbooks, though I think some of you have been saying some of these tricks can be do with just the first 3 books. Still, seems like an awful lot of weirdness.

Oh, I don't know about that...

I do a pretty mean little loop with just Core, Tome of Battle, and Complete Champion. :smallsmile:

Collin152
2008-05-05, 08:17 PM
Goodness gracious, Solo's transformed into his final form!

Estuans interius,
Ira vehementi,
Estuans interius,
Ira vehementi,
Solo!
Solo!

Citizen Jenkins
2008-05-06, 12:49 AM
Maybe its just that I'm used to thinking in terms of the game world, and figuring: if these things actually worked, something would have done them already, so the game world would no longer be the way it is presented as.

Since the Sarrukh are integrally tied into the Forgotten Realms campaign setting (And Serpent Kingdoms is a FR book) then you either,

a. Don't live in Faerun, in which case Sarrukh don't exist and have no reason to, in which case you have nothing to worry about.

or

b. You do live in Faerun, in which case multiple Pun-Puns exist but due to the immense overpoweredness of the setting they've had to get jobs as bartenders just like all the level 15 retired adventures and archmages on holiday/night job/bad plot idea.

Also,
Solo, dude, not cool

Solo
2008-05-06, 12:57 AM
Guess it's a good thing my self esteem isn't contingent on your approval of me.

Nebo_
2008-05-06, 01:01 AM
What's that, News Monster?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/Gojira/morbo.jpg

Theoretical Exercises do not work that way!



Oh, I don't know about that...

I do a pretty mean little loop with just Core, Tome of Battle, and Complete Champion. :smallsmile:

+1. The news monster is always right.

Kompera
2008-05-06, 03:42 AM
All allowable broken rules are flaws in the DM. You are arguing Oberoni fallacy.
Wow, I never considered selecting "Wizard" as my character's class during character creation was an Oberoni fallacy... :smallyuk:

AtomicKitKat
2008-05-06, 11:38 AM
Maybe its just that I'm used to thinking in terms of the game world, and figuring: if these things actually worked, something would have done them already, so the game world would no longer be the way it is presented as.

Hence my signature. The world rejects their existence, and then carries on.

Devils_Advocate
2008-05-06, 11:37 PM
As one poster once mentioned at some point: Of course Pun-Pun already exists. He's the supreme overdeity of power, knowledge, balance, metagaming, loopholes, exploits, cunning, and whatever else he feels like. He long ago used his astronomically high mental abilities to deduce that he is actually a fictional character in a game world whose continued existence is ultimately dependent on its smooth functioning. Pun-pun surreptitiously intervenes to prevent or reverse any development that would alter the world's balance of power to the point of unplayability. Other than that, he tends to refrain from directly rewriting reality, lest he upset the balance himself. Pun-pun respects cleverness, and prefers to have his squirrel divine minions lure potential game-breakers away from overpoweredness with other attractive options, rather than simply punish them. He does not hesitate to deal harshly with those who will not cooperate, however; at the end of the day, he has to protect the multiverse.

tcrudisi
2008-12-28, 02:30 PM
I'm playing in a new D&D 3.5 campaign. Upon creating characters, I learned a few facts: 1) The DM knows 1st ed, not 3rd. As such, anything in any 3rd ed. books are good to go. 2) The other 2 players were wanting to play an Artificer and a gestalt Changeling Druid/Sorceror. Does that second character sound familiar? I believe it might.

When I met the guy, I pointed out how much like Pun-Pun his character seemed to be. Apparently, he wants to actually create Pun-Pun in this world.

Now, if he were just a normal player with a normal DM, I wouldn't care. The fact is, I can see this DM allowing him to continue playing it beyond when he achieves godhood. Also, this guy is a 100% total and complete power-gamer, even going so far as to loot every single magical item and gold piece that drops that he can with no intent of ever sharing.

Now that I've set that up, I need a way to stop him. Within the rules. I've been looking, and here's the problems that I see with Pun-Pun:

It requires a minimum of 14th level to pull off. Even using Divine Minion, which allows you to shapechange as an 11th level druid, does not give you 11 hit dice. As such, it still requires you to have 14 hit dice before you can shapechange into the Sarukkh, which has 14HD. So you are limited by your druid level /and/ your HD. Boosting caster level doesn't let you shapechange above your HD, either. Per the errata: The master of many forms’ class levels stack with other class levels that grant wild shape for the purpose of determining the maximum Hit Dice of a form. Well, he's playing a Changeling, not a Divine Minion, but even then, wouldn't you be required to have 14 HD to turn into the Sarrukh per the Shapeshift rules?

Okay, how about "Allowing rulesets across two editions is not raw. Any 3.0 material included in a 3.5 build is a house rule"?

Last, I have issue with the wording of Manipulate Form. "A Sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril." So he would have to be a "Scaled One native of Toril", right? Also, it specifically says that "Sarrukh are immune to this effect." As such, if a Sarrukh is immune to Manipulate Form per the wording of Manipulate Form, then shouldn't it be assumed that whoever has Manipulate Form is immune to Manipulate Form? Also, that the stat modifiers from Manipulate Form are untyped bonuses from an identical source, meaning that they don't stack with themselves.

I realize very few people want to argue about Pun-Pun. I'm sorry. Hell, I like the fact that Pun-Pun is so awesome. I was content to believe that a level 1, 5, 12, or 14 character could become a god just because of a whim. But now that someone is trying to do it in a game? The gloves are off. I'm the only player who knows the rules (all the others are 1st or 2nd ed. people who are trying out 3rd), so the DM is looking to me for rules clarifications. (No, I'm not normally a rules lawyer, but this guy is forcing me to be with his whole attitude towards the game).

Anyway, any help given would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys!

~Tcrudisi

Djinn_in_Tonic
2008-12-28, 02:54 PM
Well, have you talked to your DM about it? Tell him what's up, and see what he thinks. If he says it's fine, then you're out of luck...talking to the player or finding a new game will be your best bets.

If the DM thing falls through, see if the player in question cares at all about the rest of the group. Be sure to tell him how that will ruin the game for the rest of you. See if that sways him at all.

I wish you the best!

tcrudisi
2008-12-28, 03:00 PM
Yeah, I spoke with the DM to give him a forewarning. I was worried when, after the DM said we could create any character we wanted at level 1, a player shows up wielding a gestalt character sheet. I mean, come on.

The really pathetic thing is that this player knows nothing about 3rd edition, and so his friend helped him optimally build it. I'm okay with helping people make characters, but to hand someone a character like THAT? I want to shoot myself.

As I was saying, I did speak with the DM. He said he'd covertly speak with the player and ask him not to play Pun-Pun. haha. But this DM is such a push-over. Seriously. He's good at telling a story, but he lets the players walk all over him, so I'm very worried that if the player refuses, he'll go ahead and let the guy play Pun-Pun. Which is why I am asking the above questions: if I can find one thing that will stop it, I can hand it to the DM and say, "It doesn't work. Here's proof. Can we all get back to playing a game instead of trying to break it?"

TheCountAlucard
2008-12-28, 03:17 PM
I want to shoot myself.

Don't. Shoot him, and then start a new thread.

chiasaur11
2008-12-28, 03:36 PM
Easy. Make the level one Pun-Pun.

Have him create a normal power level minion to actually do the adventuring.

Use Captain Omnipotent to prevent the other guy from getting a Sutukkh.

Done.

Asbestos
2008-12-28, 04:04 PM
Easy. Make the level one Pun-Pun.

Have him create a normal power level minion to actually do the adventuring.

Use Captain Omnipotent to prevent the other guy from getting a Sutukkh.

Done.

Awesome. I would suggest using your kobold/god to Unname the other guy as well. Or have something like that in place, as a contingency.

Belial_the_Leveler
2008-12-28, 04:12 PM
Psst. Look carefully here:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#stackingEffects

Rules under "Same Effect with Differing Results". Only the latest result applies. Manipulate Form is (Su) thus a magical effect-this rule applies. Its changes are permanent, not instantaneous-so this rule is relevant.

What does this mean? It means you can only have one change due to Manipulate Form. The latest renders the others nonfunctional.
Example: Assume you give your familiar manipulate form then you try to also increase its strength. It loses the manipulate form.
Example 2: Assume you're a scaled one native to Toril (which you can only be in FRCS btw) and someone tries to both give you manipulate form and some other ability. You'll only retain the other ability.

Teron
2008-12-28, 07:56 PM
Yeah, I spoke with the DM to give him a forewarning. I was worried when, after the DM said we could create any character we wanted at level 1, a player shows up wielding a gestalt character sheet. I mean, come on.

The really pathetic thing is that this player knows nothing about 3rd edition, and so his friend helped him optimally build it. I'm okay with helping people make characters, but to hand someone a character like THAT? I want to shoot myself.

As I was saying, I did speak with the DM. He said he'd covertly speak with the player and ask him not to play Pun-Pun. haha. But this DM is such a push-over. Seriously. He's good at telling a story, but he lets the players walk all over him, so I'm very worried that if the player refuses, he'll go ahead and let the guy play Pun-Pun. Which is why I am asking the above questions: if I can find one thing that will stop it, I can hand it to the DM and say, "It doesn't work. Here's proof. Can we all get back to playing a game instead of trying to break it?"
Have you tried at least pointing out to the DM that gestalt is a variant rule, not a regular character option, and no more legal by default than deciding your character uses a different HP or XP system?

woodenbandman
2008-12-28, 08:08 PM
This whole thread is fail for trying to rationalize the Pun-Pun. Pun-Pun cannnot be rationalized. It simply... is.

arguskos
2008-12-28, 08:14 PM
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u250/bloodydoves/Thread_Necromancy.jpg
What, no one's posted this one yet? Y'all are lettin' me down here. :smallwink:

Also, Pun-Pun cheese is fail. Any DM has the right, by law, to beat any player that tries that stuff, sorry, no exceptions.