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InaVegt
2008-05-06, 03:06 PM
This post is about the Divine Emissary (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/prestigeClasses/divineEmissary.htm).

It is an epic PrC, and well, we all know the ELH wasn't very balanced or well thought out. But I think I should point you to a minor flaw in the design of this class.

You see, it requires a Base Attack Bonus of +23.

This means it is inaccessible to any PC, as no PC can have a BAB of over 20. Simply for the fact that starting at level 21, you no longer acquire BAB, no matter your class.

They even speak of clerics entering this class, now, even a single level of cleric would put you further away from the requirements, let alone someone who stayed a pureclassed cleric into epic levels, as this class seems to assume clerics would've done.

So, apparently, one of wizard's game designers forgot a rule which was written in the very same book, and no editor caught this.

Cuddly
2008-05-06, 03:10 PM
Divine Power gives you BAB equal to your level, so really, only a cleric (or archivist, artificer, or favored soul) could enter that class. Ironically, though, the ELH was written when Divine Power read "BAB equal to a fighter of your level".

Jasdoif
2008-05-06, 03:10 PM
There's a sneaky rule in there.
Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus, use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.

UserClone
2008-05-06, 03:15 PM
The only difference between BAB and Epic Attack Bonus is that EAB doesn't count for determining iterative attacks. Other than that, iirc, they are completely interchangeable.

InaVegt
2008-05-06, 03:16 PM
Awww, well, it still looks weird though.

Cuddly: There's a max of 20 for the BAB, IIRC

Cuddly
2008-05-06, 03:18 PM
No need to recall- just look it up (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm).

namo
2008-05-07, 12:24 AM
While I agree with you about the RAW, Rule 0.5 of Epic play is that "Nothing is written with epic in mind" so that making Divine Power follow the epic BAB rule is common sense.

Cuddly
2008-05-07, 12:34 AM
Common sense? This. Is. RAW!!!!!!!!

Kizara
2008-05-07, 12:35 AM
Tangent: You know what's great in 3.0? Tenser's Transformation gives you BAB equal to half your caster level.

Use caster-level boosts, and get access to it with a 3/4 BAB class such as cleric, and viola. Kizara (3.0 vampiric cleric) used this trick to get like 28 BAB at level 20. :)

5 attacks/round rockzors. :)


EDIT: Want to see a really terribly edited book? Check out Complete Champion. It's practically a joke.

Cuddly
2008-05-07, 12:42 AM
EDIT: Want to see a really terribly edited book? Check out Complete Champion. It's practically a joke.

Example.


stuffstuffstuff

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-07, 12:56 AM
Tangent: You know what's great in 3.0? Tenser's Transformation gives you BAB equal to half your caster level.

Use caster-level boosts, and get access to it with a 3/4 BAB class such as cleric, and viola. Kizara (3.0 vampiric cleric) used this trick to get like 28 BAB at level 20. :)

5 attacks/round rockzors. :)

That doesn't make any sense? The best CL I can get without Ur-Priest is less then 40, so that would give you less then Divine Power.

Half your CL would mean that a generic level 20 Wizard with no CL boosts would actually keep the same BAB as he had before casting the spell. Are you sure you don't mean BAB equal to your CL?

Kizara
2008-05-07, 01:06 AM
That doesn't make any sense? The best CL I can get without Ur-Priest is less then 40, so that would give you less then Divine Power.

Half your CL would mean that a generic level 20 Wizard with no CL boosts would actually keep the same BAB as he had before casting the spell. Are you sure you don't mean BAB equal to your CL?


1) I just checked, it says "1 BAB per 2 caster levels". And yes, it giving a BAB equal to a fighter of your level was the obvious intention, but the wording is exploitable.

2) This is what I did: As a spellstiched vampire (MM2), I took Tenser's Transformation as one of my SLAs. Also, I was a 20th level cleric of vecna.

So, first I cast Divine Power (so my BAB was 20), then I used CL boosts (to get +5) and cast Tenser's to get +12 BAB, getting 32 total. Wow, I remembered incorrectly. My bad.

EDIT: But even without special circumstances like being undead, you could do this with a scroll and the Magic domain, by casting miracle or (IIRC) by a ring of spell storing.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-07, 01:42 AM
1) I just checked, it says "1 BAB per 2 caster levels". And yes, it giving a BAB equal to a fighter of your level was the obvious intention, but the wording is exploitable.

2) This is what I did: As a spellstiched vampire (MM2), I took Tenser's Transformation as one of my SLAs. Also, I was a 20th level cleric of vecna.

So, first I cast Divine Power (so my BAB was 20), then I used CL boosts (to get +5) and cast Tenser's to get +12 BAB, getting 32 total. Wow, I remembered incorrectly. My bad.

EDIT: But even without special circumstances like being undead, you could do this with a scroll and the Magic domain, by casting miracle or (IIRC) by a ring of spell storing.

Okay, but then this is a different problem. In your original post you said that it "gives you a BAB" which I understand as being "set your BAB to" which would mean that you get a BAB of 12, not 32.

If it adds BAB that's different. But you originally said it gives you a BAB of 1 per two CLs which would give you a lower BAB then Divine Power outside of the most ridiculous Ur-Priest Cheese.

So does it say add BAB? Or does it give you a BAB of X (replacing your previous BAB) I don't have 3.0 books anymore, so I can't say.

bosssmiley
2008-05-07, 04:05 AM
Editors? In the context of the ELH (aka "The D&D Munchkin Bumper Joke Book")? Oh, that's a good one Gezina. I'll be chortling at that for the rest of the morning. Everyone knows the ELH was edited by a couple of stoned monkeys with red pens. :smallamused:

Serious head. Just change the requirement from "BAB 23+" to "Paladin level 23+".

jcsw
2008-05-07, 04:38 AM
Uh, we ARE talking about the SRD Transformation right? Cause it says
Transformation
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

You become a virtual fighting machine—stronger, tougher, faster, and more skilled in combat. Your mind-set changes so that you relish combat and you can’t cast spells, even from magic items.

You gain a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution, a +4 natural armor bonus to AC, a +5 competence bonus on Fortitude saves, and proficiency with all simple and martial weapons. Your base attack bonus equals your character level (which may give you multiple attacks).

You lose your spellcasting ability, including your ability to use spell trigger or spell completion magic items, just as if the spells were no longer on your class list.
Material Component

A potion of bull’s strength, which you drink (and whose effects are subsumed by the spell effects).

It changes your BAB to your character level.

Swooper
2008-05-07, 05:57 AM
Uh, we ARE talking about the SRD Transformation right?
No, we were talking about the 3.0 Tenser's Transformation. Which was broken if you found a way to get it as a cleric or something other than a 1/2 BAB class.

Roderick_BR
2008-05-07, 06:10 AM
Editors? In the context of the ELH (aka "The D&D Munchkin Bumper Joke Book")? Oh, that's a good one Gezina. I'll be chortling at that for the rest of the morning. Everyone knows the ELH was edited by a couple of stoned monkeys with red pens. :smallamused:

Blue... the pen... is... blue.... (Liar Liar, with Jim Carrey)

Funny thing, Improved Manyshot needs BAB +21 too.

Reinboom
2008-05-07, 08:30 AM
Please to be reading the rules, kkthxu.

The same could be said for reading threads.


There's a sneaky rule in there.

Any time a feat, prestige class, or other rule refers to your base attack bonus, use the sum of your base attack bonus and epic attack bonus.

nargbop
2008-05-07, 11:49 AM
Yah, it's reasonable to say that the combined bonusses from BaB and epic bonusses combine to make you eligible. Now, and UNreasonable interpretation is to add, say, the bonus that dervishes get ton slashy weapons, or the like. I like my level 20 dervish with a +31 to hit :smallbiggrin:

Renegade Paladin
2008-05-07, 12:06 PM
EDIT: Want to see a really terribly edited book? Check out Complete Champion. It's practically a joke.
Dragons of Faerun is worse. I have bought a very large portion of WotC's D&D 3.5e product line, and that one is the only one I have unreservedly regretted buying. The others, even the other terrible ones, have some sort of redeeming value; DoF does not.

Well, actually, I take it back. There's one reason to have it; it hands me the dragon required to take the "a caster can kill any CR20 dragon to get money" argument and slap it silly. :smalltongue: Other than that, though...