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expirement10K14
2008-05-06, 04:00 PM
Druid 10/Planar Shepard 10//Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/Frenzied Berserker 10/Other 4

I see this as really powerful-
Activate Planar Shepard abilities- using the one plane that gives you ten actions per turn (or something like that). Wildshape and Frenzy. Now you can dish out tons of damage per turn, with no one else able to act.

Would this actually work? And what would work for the other 4 levels?

Frosty
2008-05-06, 04:03 PM
Why not have more spellcasting on your other side? Swinging a big axe is for chumps :smallbiggrin:

Vortling
2008-05-06, 04:06 PM
Put factotum on the other side and spend inspiration points to give you extra actions. Lots of extra actions!

expirement10K14
2008-05-06, 04:06 PM
Frenzied Berserker gives +10 strength and that side will give full BAB. If you use Natural Spell a spell caster would probably work better though.

dman11235
2008-05-06, 04:11 PM
Dude, you don't even need gestalt to pull it off. Druid 10/Planar Shephard 10 can dish out 10s of thousands of damage per round without the FB.

Now, druid 20/monk1/x9/Planar Shephard 10 is even better, where x is some full BAB class. Try to stagger it so you have BAB 19 at level 20. Heck, you can get BAB 20 at 20 if you start with a full BAB class. Add in Fist of the Forest for a level for an even more insane AC. And if you want to, you can optimize the unarmed strike damage to give yourself an unarmed strike as primary and then a bunch of other natural attacks as secondary, 5 warshaper helps with that. So monk 2/barbarian (Cityscape variant for dex/str rather than str/con so you can still cast spells and lion totem (CChamp)) 1/psychic warrior 2 (for feats and Force Screen and Expansion)/FotF 3/Warshaper 5/Planar Shephard x//druid y/Planar Shephard 10-x. Now, does the PS get full spell casting and full wildshape? If so, it doesn't matter how many druid you have, so druid 10/PS 10, and instead of PS on the other side, Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 2/something else 5.

The_Snark
2008-05-06, 04:16 PM
Merely pointing out that killing people in melee combat is not one of the things you want to do with your 10 rounds per round, because everybody within 20 feet is affected. If you're in melee with an enemy, they're within the area of effect, and you're back to normal turns.

Turcano
2008-05-06, 04:18 PM
That build isn't legal by the RAW, as you've got 20 levels of prestige classes.

Chronos
2008-05-06, 04:35 PM
Try to stagger it so you have BAB 19 at level 20. Heck, you can get BAB 20 at 20 if you start with a full BAB class.In order to get BAB 20 at level 20, you need a full BAB class on at least one side at each level. To get BAB 19, you need a full BAB class on at least one side for 16 of your 20 levels.

dman11235
2008-05-06, 04:43 PM
Actually, there is no rule in gestalt that you cannot progress with two PrCs at once. It is merely a suggestion that the book makes.

Also, fighter 1/rogue 19//monk 20 gestalt will have a BAB of 20 at level 20. Unless you use fractional BAB.

Griffin131
2008-05-06, 05:14 PM
Also, fighter 1/rogue 19//monk 20 gestalt will have a BAB of 20 at level 20. Unless you use fractional BAB.

No it wont. At level 5 youll have 1(ftr) + 3 (rog//mnk)

So 4. since BAB != Level, you cant have 20 at 20.

edit: lemme put it a different way
Level 1: +1 BAB (Fighter over monk)
Level 2: +1 BAB (Monk over Rogue)
Level 3: +1 BAB (Monk over Rogue)
Level 4: +1 BAB (Monk over Rogue)
Level 5: +0 BAB (Neither Rogue nor Monk gains a BAB this level [4 for Rogue, 5 for Monk])

Since its impossible to get +2 BAB for a level (afaik) you cant reach BAB20 at level 20.

dman11235
2008-05-06, 05:37 PM
What? At level 4 a rogue gains a point of BAB, so at level 5, fighter 1/rogue 4//monk 5 will gain a point of BAB. If you fail to understand how that works, go read the gestalt rules again.

EDIT: It's not ftr 1+rg 3//monk 3, it's ftr 1/monk 1+rg 1/monk 2, etc. At level one the best thing in the BAB column is ftr, with +1. At level two they are the same, rg 1 and monk 2. At levels 3-4 they are also the same, rg 2-3/monk 3-4. At level five you have rg 4/monk five, the rogue's BAB goes up, but the monk's doesn't, so the best thing there is +1 BAB in the rogue side, therefore +1.

Frosty
2008-05-06, 05:40 PM
And to save everyone headaches and to prevent staggering Sorcerer and Wizard levels to have like 19 BAB at level 20, we should always use Fractional BAB with Gestalt.

FlyMolo
2008-05-06, 05:44 PM
And to save everyone headaches and to prevent staggering Sorcerer and Wizard levels to have like 19 BAB at level 20, we should always use Fractional BAB with Gestalt.

Just take the fastest progression. Piece of cake.

And besides, the 10x as many rounds as someone else isn't even the most broken part of PS. Look at outsider wildshaping. It's silly.

Gralamin
2008-05-06, 06:04 PM
What? At level 4 a rogue gains a point of BAB, so at level 5, fighter 1/rogue 4//monk 5 will gain a point of BAB. If you fail to understand how that works, go read the gestalt rules again.

EDIT: It's not ftr 1+rg 3//monk 3, it's ftr 1/monk 1+rg 1/monk 2, etc. At level one the best thing in the BAB column is ftr, with +1. At level two they are the same, rg 1 and monk 2. At levels 3-4 they are also the same, rg 2-3/monk 3-4. At level five you have rg 4/monk five, the rogue's BAB goes up, but the monk's doesn't, so the best thing there is +1 BAB in the rogue side, therefore +1.

Gestalt does not work that way. You take the sum of BAB on each side and use the higher, you do not take the point gained at each level.

dman11235
2008-05-06, 06:06 PM
Since when? Read the rules again, you gain the best of everything at every level.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-06, 06:11 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm



Base Attack Bonus

Choose the better progression from the two classes.

dman11235
2008-05-06, 06:18 PM
Yes, and I interpret this to mean at each level you take the better progression. Otherwise, at level 5 what's the progression of a level 4 rogue and level 5 monk? One half ((1+0)/2)? One (the rogue) or zero (the monk)? Or zero, as a result of the monk being at level 5 while you are level 5? In that case, what if you take a fighter level at every multiple of four +1?

Gralamin
2008-05-06, 06:36 PM
Yes, and I interpret this to mean at each level you take the better progression. Otherwise, at level 5 what's the progression of a level 4 rogue and level 5 monk? One half ((1+0)/2)? One (the rogue) or zero (the monk)? Or zero, as a result of the monk being at level 5 while you are level 5? In that case, what if you take a fighter level at every multiple of four +1?

As shown above, the quote

Choose the better progression from the two classes.
This means for a Fighter 1/Rogue 4//Monk 5, your BAB will be +4 (+1 (fighter is better then Rogue/Monk) +3 (Rogue and Monk have the same progression). This can therefore be extrapolated into meaning your BAB is the better one of the sum of each side.

dman11235
2008-05-06, 06:40 PM
Stupid ambiguous rulings. Why is it not the better progression at each level? Sure rogue and monk have the same progression, but they aren't progressing at the same time, you're one level behind on the rogue side.

And you made quite a leap in logic to say that. Going from "same progression" to "sum of each side".

SamTheCleric
2008-05-06, 06:42 PM
No, Dman has it right.



The process is similar to multiclassing, except that characters gain the full benefits of each class at each level. if the two classes you choose have aspects that overlap (such as Hit Dice, attack progression, saves, and class features common to more than one class), you choose the better aspect. The gestalt character retains all aspects that donít overlap.

Gralamin
2008-05-06, 06:43 PM
Stupid ambiguous rulings. Why is it not the better progression at each level? Sure rogue and monk have the same progression, but they aren't progressing at the same time, you're one level behind on the rogue side.

And you made quite a leap in logic to say that. Going from "same progression" to "sum of each side".

The progression at each level is the same. A progression is how it advances, Not the VALUE at that level. You are taking the better VALUE each level.
And it is not a leap of logic to add up the Values of each progression for each side of the build and take the higher, as that is the same thing as taking the higher progression.


No, Dman has it right.

No he doesn't, he's talking about values, not progression. This has been seen in Q & A by RAW before. (I'll see if I can find a link)


edit: To put things another way:
let V(L) be the value of base attack bonus at a level L. The progression of V(L) would be V'(L) (or the derivative of V with respect to L).
In other words if V(L) = 0.75L and the value is then truncated, then the progression would be V'(L) = 0.75

Chronos
2008-05-06, 07:00 PM
OK, so let's say that you have a fighter1/monk 1//rogue 2 (I could take it further, but this is enough to make the point). At level 1, my BAB is +1, since Fighter is the faster progression at this level. I think we all agree thus far. Now, what is it at second level? I could take the monk progression, in which case it's +1 (since monk doesn't get a point of BAB at level 1). Alternately, I could take the rogue progression, but rogue doesn't gain a point of BAB at level 1, either. Rogue does gain a point of BAB at level 2, but that's irrelevant, since this is the first level of rogue BAB progression I'm taking, so I get the BAB progression of a first-level rogue.

monty
2008-05-06, 07:01 PM
You know things are getting geeky when you have to bring calculus into a d20 argument...

Griffin131
2008-05-06, 07:01 PM
Since when? Read the rules again, you gain the best of everything at every level.

Look at my example -- You do literally get the best BAB you can of the classes youve chosen at that level. Unfortunately, neither of the classes youve chosen actually progress at that level.

Eldariel
2008-05-06, 07:04 PM
I'd rather suggest Int-synergy than Wis-synergy; Whisper Gnome Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5 // Factotum 20 (assuming normal multiclassing rules) with a LOT of Font of Inspirations is really incredible, for example. Great skillmonkeying, great casting and incredible synergies with Cunning Surge et al. Oh yeah, and an effective access to 3 schools at will.

The +1 DC from normal Gnome over Whisper Gnome's incredible stealth is somewhat arguable, but then again, Whisper Gnome also has 30' movement, spot skills and bonus to two important attributes with penalty to two dump stats. Oh yeah, and starting from level 5, he'll be rather incredible healer (although playing an Int-bonus race would make it better, but that would make the build less perfect as it really wants Shadowcraft Mage, and splitting classes would make it suspectible to experience penalties and make it non-epic ready).

Griffin131
2008-05-06, 07:07 PM
Rogue does gain a point of BAB at level 2, but that's irrelevant, since this is the first level of rogue BAB progression I'm taking, so I get the BAB progression of a first-level rogue.

Totally wrong. You'd get +1 for your first level of fighter, then +1 for your second level of rogue.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-05-06, 07:07 PM
So you've taken the two most broken builds in 3.5 and smashed them together in a gestalt build. So effin what? He's still killed by a straight Wiz20 Batman Wizard. With ease. Before he gets to take an action.

Also, I don't think you can meet all the requirements for both PrC's at the listed levels due to feat requirements.

This build deserves one whole heaping bowl of 'meh'.

As a GM faced with this monstrocity, I would force Rage as often as I could, using various methods of inflicting damage. Sooner or later, you'd roll a nat 1 on your Will save, and TPK the group, then let the other players deal with the problem for me.

dman11235
2008-05-06, 07:11 PM
In your example you claim that rogues do not gain BAB at level 4. This is not true. They do. So at level 5 you have rogue over monk, for +1.

@Chronos: It's the second level of rogue though. What, do you only gain the first SA dice at level 2 as well, since rogue doesn't count at level 1?

On the Q+A using RAW, it is an impossible concept, as RAW is what is written down, so things like this will fail to be answered correctly, no matter what the answer is, as it is an interpretation, and thus no longer RAW.

Now, I am not taking it as a value. Oh, wait, I am. Kinda. What good is a progression if it does not give a value? And is a value not part of a progression? I am merely taking the progression down to a smaller level, to where it becomes a value, thus allowing it to be added on to the other value I had previously. Because one cannot add a value and a progression, math does not work that way.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 07:12 PM
I'd rather suggest Int-synergy than Wis-synergy; Whisper Gnome Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5 // Factotum 20 (assuming normal multiclassing rules) with a LOT of Font of Inspirations is really incredible, for example. Great skillmonkeying, great casting and incredible synergies with Cunning Surge et al. Oh yeah, and an effective access to 3 schools at will.

The +1 DC from normal Gnome over Whisper Gnome's incredible stealth is somewhat arguable, but then again, Whisper Gnome also has 30' movement, spot skills and bonus to two important attributes with penalty to two dump stats. Oh yeah, and starting from level 5, he'll be rather incredible healer (although playing an Int-bonus race would make it better, but that would make the build less perfect as it really wants Shadowcraft Mage, and splitting classes would make it suspectible to experience penalties and make it non-epic ready).


Doesn't work without a dozen of flaws. Feat preqs.

Cuddly
2008-05-06, 07:20 PM
Feats (before level 16)
6 from levels
1 from wizard
3 from incantatrix
2 from flaws
1? from factotum

That should be plenty.

Chronos
2008-05-06, 07:20 PM
Totally wrong. You'd get +1 for your first level of fighter, then +1 for your second level of rogue.So you're taking the fighter and rogue BAB progression at level 1?

@Chronos: It's the second level of rogue though. What, do you only gain the first SA dice at level 2 as well, since rogue doesn't count at level 1?No, you gain your first SA die at level 1, because rogue is the fastest SA progression you have at that level. You also get a ton of skill points, because rogue is the fastest skill progression you have at level 1. But it's not the fastest BAB progression you have, so you don't get the rogue BAB progression at level 1.

Cuddly
2008-05-06, 07:21 PM
Check and mate.

SamTheCleric
2008-05-06, 07:22 PM
Fighter 1 // Rogue 1 = BAB +1
Wizard 1// Rogue 2 = BAB +2
Figher 2// Sorcerer 1 = BAB +3

At first level your choices are +1 or +0, you choose +1
At second level your choices are +0 or +1, you choose +1
At third level your choices are +1 or +0, you choose +1

Eldariel
2008-05-06, 07:22 PM
It works quite fine. It just doesn't unfortunately get Font of Inspiration more than 4-5 times. You get Iron Will level 1, Extend Spell or something level 3 and level 6 Spell Focus (Illusion). Rest of your metamagic you can pick up as bonus from Incantatrix, and rest of your normal feats you can burn in Fonts. Of course, this makes you unable to take 14 Standard Actions, but you still get enough Inspiration Points to end any encounter in your first turn.

Hell, if you really want to, you could skip Spontaneous Divination (you'll have quite a lot of spell slots, especially with Factotum added to the mix, anyways so you could afford to skip it provided that you don't plan on a billion encounters per day; alternatively, use scrolls) for any of those feats and I think there's some ACF to switch your Scribe Scroll for some metamagic or something.

Griffin131
2008-05-06, 07:23 PM
So you're taking the fighter and rogue BAB progression at level 1?
No. You dont "save up" BAB choices - if you do Fighter///Ranger then Monk//Rogue, youd have a +1 BAB, not a +2, because you use whats available at that level. Previous levels are irrelevant.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 07:24 PM
Feats (before level 16)
6 from levels
1 from wizard
3 from incantatrix
2 from flaws
1? from factotum

That should be plenty.

No feats from 'Totum.

And the wizard feats and 'tatrix feats do not work for FoI. With less than five FoI's, it's not worth it if you aim for extra casting.

So, it was two preqs for 'Tatrix, I believe. If shadowcraft mage had some, then there's some extra feats you have to take. Seven feats, you have five. Now, if shadowcraft had ANYTHING but metamagic, then that's a few less. You fall short unless you use flaws. That's not good, the build must function on a normal environment.

Eldariel
2008-05-06, 07:31 PM
No feats from 'Totum.

And the wizard feats and 'tatrix feats do not work for FoI. With less than five FoI's, it's not worth it if you aim for extra casting.

So, it was two preqs for 'Tatrix, I believe. If shadowcraft mage had some, then there's some extra feats you have to take. Seven feats, you have five. Now, if shadowcraft had ANYTHING but metamagic, then that's a few less. You fall short unless you use flaws. That's not good, the build must function on a normal environment.

I'd say 'Totum would be worth it even without any Fonts. Just being able to nova as an Incantatrix for 3 spells in a row (something you naturally get on level 11) each encounter generally means you can end any encounter you want to whenever you want to. If you really want 5 Fonts, give up Spontaneous Divination and you're golden. You'll also have all you need for the Wizard-side.

Cuddly
2008-05-06, 07:33 PM
No feats from 'Totum.

And the wizard feats and 'tatrix feats do not work for FoI. With less than five FoI's, it's not worth it if you aim for extra casting.

So, it was two preqs for 'Tatrix, I believe. If shadowcraft mage had some, then there's some extra feats you have to take. Seven feats, you have five. Now, if shadowcraft had ANYTHING but metamagic, then that's a few less. You fall short unless you use flaws. That's not good, the build must function on a normal environment.

Your optimize-fu is weak.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 07:35 PM
Your optimize-fu is weak.

I'm AFB, so correct me, but Factotum really doesn't add to the combo without at least three uses of Cunning surge, or in other words, 12 IP. One spell is not going to change anything, for better or worse, and two spells will have neglible impact. Three, however, ensure SOMETHING is going down.

And yeah, you should work from the base assumption that flaws are not kosher. A build reliant on them is bad.

Cuddly
2008-05-06, 07:41 PM
Ways to turn one feat into another feat:


1a) embrace the dark chaos
1b) shun the dark chaos
2) psychic reformation
3) limited wish to emulate psychic reformation or the chaos shuffle
4) miracle to emulate psychic reformation or the chaos shuffle
5) Use wish granted to you from a gated outsider
6) UMD (or UPD) any of the above
7) retrain the feats

Eldariel
2008-05-06, 07:44 PM
I'm AFB, so correct me, but Factotum really doesn't add to the combo without at least three uses of Cunning surge, or in other words, 12 IP. One spell is not going to change anything, for better or worse, and two spells will have neglible impact. Three, however, ensure SOMETHING is going down.

And yeah, you should work from the base assumption that flaws are not kosher. A build reliant on them is bad.

Factotum adds so much more; being able to pass Spell Resistance, contributing in combat early on, Intelligence-based healing, skillmonkey role (you get insane Hide and Move Silently for the first level thanks to Factotum, and can also pick locks and so on), insane skill checks with Int-synergy and eventually any abilities you desire.

And the build can easily go:
1. Iron Will
3. Font
5. Extend Spell
6. Font
9. Font

That gives us 3 Standard actions at 8, 4 standard actions at 9, 5 standard actions at 11. Then he can go 12. Font, 15. Spell Focus, 18. Font. 5 Fonts = a total of 25 Inspiration on level 20, making him able to take 8 extra standard actions. I cannot really see how you could claim that to be ineffective. Flaws would basically get you an extra Font and Spontaneous Divination. 6th Font gets you eventually 31 Inspiration.

All this works out, while Incantatrix buys us Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell and Heighten Spell (for Shadowcraft Mage-abuse). Also, this build includes absolutely no cheese (unless you consider the very existence of 'Font of Inspiration' cheese), no questionable interpretations, it's completely Epic-ready, pretty much completely SAD, very effective from level 1 on and can do everything well except for melee combat and even there has medium BAB and the ability to use Intelligence for damage and hit throughout the career. Basically, a one-man party that just happens to have billion spell insta-kill novas.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 07:44 PM
You don't have the preqs, PrC don't work.

And the chaos shuffle wasn't an elf trick?

And as far as I know, Factotum doesn't specify cunning brilliance can't be used on PrC's (Though there MUST be an errata). Just take something else, like Archmage, and wait 'till level 19. Yes, late bloomer. But you can cherrypick any PrC feature (Since they reach up to level 10) and have it up to three times per day (Unless that's errataed).

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 07:46 PM
Factotum adds so much more; being able to pass Spell Resistance, contributing in combat early on, Intelligence-based healing, skillmonkey role (you get insane Hide and Move Silently for the first level thanks to Factotum, and can also pick locks and so on), insane skill checks with Int-synergy and eventually any abilities you desire.

And the build can easily go:
1. Iron Will
3. Font
5. Extend Spell
6. Font
9. Font

That gives us 3 Standard actions at 8, 4 standard actions at 9, 5 standard actions at 11. Then he can go 12. Font, 15. Spell Focus, 18. Font. 5 Fonts = a total of 25 Inspiration on level 20, making him able to take 8 extra standard actions. I cannot really see how you could claim that to be ineffective. Flaws would basically get you an extra Font and Spontaneous Divination. 6th Font gets you eventually 31 Inspiration.

All this works out, while Incantatrix buys us Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell and Heighten Spell (for Shadowcraft Mage-abuse).

Yes, Factotum is awesome. But if you go for the action trick, you NEED those 25 IP, else you don't even bother.

You've just demonstrated the build as viable, unless there's a mistake, though. Thanks for saving me a lot of debating.

Chronos
2008-05-06, 07:56 PM
The Dark Chaos shuffle is for anyone (if your DM allows it in the first place). It's just usually talked about in connection with elves because they get a bunch of bonus racial proficiencies.

And in what possible sense is it a waste to be able to get even a single extra standard action per encounter? Sure, it's better to get more, if you can, but any amount is better than the zero extra that's normal for a wizard. And even without any Fonts, a Factotum can still use three Cunning Surges per encounter, so your wizard in the first round is casting one regular spell, one quickened spell, three Cunning Surge-action spells, and then right after his turn ends using Celerity for another spell. If your wizard can't end the encounter with six spells, he's doing something wrong.


Factotum adds so much more; being able to pass Spell Resistance, contributing in combat early on, Intelligence-based healing, skillmonkey role (you get insane Hide and Move Silently for the first level thanks to Factotum, and can also pick locks and so on), insane skill checks with Int-synergy and eventually any abilities you desire.Don't forget about adding your Int bonus to initiative checks. Brains over Brawn applies Int to all Strength and Dex-based skill and ability check, and initiative is a dexterity check.

Cuddly
2008-05-06, 07:57 PM
You don't have the preqs, PrC don't work.

That's nice.
Without flaws, you have a total of 10 feats to work with. You need... say five for PrC requirements. That means you can sink your other five in FoI- though really, how many times in a battle do you really need to take extra standard actions?.


And the chaos shuffle wasn't an elf trick?

Elves happen to get 5 bonus racial feats. Heck, you could go gray elf, take three levels in the PrC that lets you be a gnome, and get even more free feats that way.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-06, 07:57 PM
I think that issue was discussed once. I can't remember if Brains ended affecting Init or Ref saves.

Chronos
2008-05-06, 08:07 PM
I don't think that Reflex saves are explicitly considered Dex checks, but initiative checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm#initiativeChecks) are. Unless there's been an errata to the Factotum and/or the definition of initiative checks that's changed that. Of course, if it does end up boosting reflex saves, too, that's even better.

Eldariel
2008-05-06, 08:16 PM
Reflex-save is merely just that; a save, so no luck there. Of course, since Factotum has high Reflex and the build has a highish Dexterity to start with, that's hardly an issue. And yes, an Elf could be amusing, but it'd cost quite a few Factotum-levels including the sweet, sweet Cunning Brilliance; the way I could make it an Elf would be "Dragonborn Gray Elf Wizard 3/Elf Paragon 2/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5 // Elf Paragon 1/Stoneblessed 3/Factotum 16" - not in that order, taking the non-casting Elf Paragon levels on the other side, and hoping that the DM doesn't consider Paragon a Prestige Class.

It still loses no casting, but Factotum-side isn't Epic-ready anymore and you'll have to fool around with feats to make it all work. For all your troubles though, you get +4 Int (which, as shouldn't need to be mentioned to anyone, is pretty damn good for a purely Int-based character), a great Elven Sublevel (3rd) and a ton of feats you can shuffle. However, since I wanted the build to be without rules ambiguity, all this is strictly out of question.

Cuddly
2008-05-06, 08:20 PM
And those feats are going to mean all sorts of abuse with earth spell & arcane thesis.

Eldariel
2008-05-06, 08:21 PM
And those feats are going to mean all sorts of abuse with earth spell & arcane thesis.

Right now, the build only has 100% real Illusions. Those feats would get it 120%. Also, having Arcane Thesis apply to basically all your spells is nice. Of course, since Incantatrix already basically has arbitrary amounts of free metamagic, it's not really needed. It's fun though.

Cuddly
2008-05-06, 08:34 PM
Earth Spell's boost to CL is cool, though.

Eldariel
2008-05-06, 08:45 PM
Earth Spell's boost to CL is cool, though.

Very true; the build would love every extra feat it can squeeze. God knows, even just picking up a bunch of extra Fonts would be awesome. This is really one of those builds that is awesome in a normal game but would be totally bonkers given the framework to add feats to everything. The core works thanks to Incantatrix getting a huge bunch of free Metamagic.

I just also realized that even though we're talking about a Specialist Illusionist here giving up Evocation, Enchantment and Necromancy (since any other choices are dumb), we get all the spells given up more or less through Factotum; eventually Factotum can even cast Contingency for us if DM decrees Silent Image copying Contingency doesn't work for some reason. Factotum has a bunch of spells, so you get Wind Walls, Heroisms, Heroics and all those spells you really don't want to give up those schools for as Spell-Likes. That's in addition to the fact that Shadowcraft Mage gives access to Evocation-school as a whole. I guess the point is that specialization suddenly doesn't hurt bad at all. Oh yeah, and you also get UMD which further makes ignoring such stupid limitations easier.

Cuddly
2008-05-06, 08:59 PM
Could you ban divination with incantatrix and use the spontaneous divination from CC?

Alternatively, ban conjuration with incantatrix, making sure to put all the spells into your spell book before level 11. Make sure you get your spellcraft really high (using inspiration, maybe? or can factotum only "cast" off of wizard list?), with some chumps using aid another, so you can put higher level spells than you would normally be able to into your spell book.

Spontaneously casting conjuration (creation) and (summoning) takes care of most of the neat stuff, though not (calling) or (teleportation).

Also, with dragonborn and spontaneous casting, you qualify for practical metamagic.

monty
2008-05-06, 09:04 PM
You can never ban divination. It specifically says so.

Cuddly
2008-05-06, 09:06 PM
You can never ban divination. It specifically says so.

For spontaneously casting it, right?
Well, that makes sense.

Draz74
2008-05-06, 09:38 PM
OK, so let's say that you have a fighter1/monk 1//rogue 2 (I could take it further, but this is enough to make the point). At level 1, my BAB is +1, since Fighter is the faster progression at this level. I think we all agree thus far. Now, what is it at second level? I could take the monk progression, in which case it's +1 (since monk doesn't get a point of BAB at level 1). Alternately, I could take the rogue progression, but rogue doesn't gain a point of BAB at level 1, either. Rogue does gain a point of BAB at level 2, but that's irrelevant, since this is the first level of rogue BAB progression I'm taking, so I get the BAB progression of a first-level rogue.

Or, to think about it a slightly different way, here's how I figure out our Fighter 1/Monk 1//Rogue 2.

Level 1: we can either have Good BAB Progression, or Medium BAB Progression. We'll take Good (duh).

Level 2: we can either have Medium BAB Progression, or Medium BAB Progression. We'll take Medium (even more duh).

Final calculation: This is a build with one level of Good BAB, and one level of Medium BAB. So it should have the same BAB as a non-Gestalt Fighter 1/Rogue 1. That's BAB +1.

(My way and Chronos's get you the same result; they're just slightly different ways of thinking about it. The Fractional system gets you the same results, too, except that multiclassing a dozen classes doesn't get you great Save bonuses in the Fractional system.)

EDIT: And to go back to dman's original build, there's little point taking levels in Druid//Planar Shepherd, since Planar Shepherd advances everything the Druid gets anyway.

For a nasty-broken Druid//melee gestalt build, though, you could always go Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10//Swordsage 20, or Druid 10/Planar Shepherd 10//Swordsage 5/War Mind 5/Swordsage +10. Or Druid 20//whatever 5/Warshaper 5/Master of Many Forms 10.

Eldariel
2008-05-07, 07:52 AM
Draz: That just illustrates that Gestalt doesn't work without partial BAB and Save-rules.

Cuddly: Divination and Abjuration can't be banned for Incantatrix; the class specifies as much. Banning Conjuration is an option, but really, just the fact that Conjuration is the deepest school in the game (aside from Transmutation) kinda makes that a bad plan. You could make up for that with Shadowcraft Mage, UMD and Factotum combined, but that'd take most of your Factotum-slots and the fix would really work kind of late.

Besides, there isn't much you lose by the classic "Evocation/Necromancy/Enchantment"-array when you have access to those schools through Factotum; only Enchantment has good high level spells and really none you can't do without (although Programmed Amnesia is friggin' sweet; get few scrolls). Other than that, you lose very little. Necromancy has crappy level 8 and 9 spells and Evocation has the same issue. I mean, there're few that would be "nice to have", but nothing one can't live without.

dman11235
2008-05-07, 10:23 AM
Druid 10/PS 10//monk 2/psychic warrior 18. I win? Or better yet, add in FotF for a level or three for con to AC as well, and Pious Templar or Hexblade or something else that grants Mettle. And two levels of some sort of TN paladin variant take Serenity (Dragon Magazine). Swordsage isn't actually as good as monk in gestalt for this. Even though it is a weak class, it does really well in gestalt.

Heck, Druid 10/PS 10//x, where x is whatever the heck you feel like. Cleric full casting, wizard full casting, psywar near full manifesting (or just two levels with Practiced Manifester) with two monk for evasion and wis to AC, Hey, take VoPov and rock out loud. Even more so at epic levels.

Eldariel
2008-05-07, 12:28 PM
What the hell are you taking the other side for? Wisdom to AC? You get that for few thousand gp. Evasion? Same few thousand gp. Flurry of Blows? You don't seriously consider engaging in combat on level 20, do you? Just make it a Factotum or something that actually gains you something useful like extra actions, protective spells, the ability to persist few bombs or even just immunity to physical damage. Or even something that's doable in an Anti-Magic Zone such as Warblade or Swordsage or something. Or something defensive like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Anything is more useful.