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Jack_Simth
2008-05-07, 09:24 PM
I was browsing through the Magic Item Compendium, and ran across a weapon property: Vampric, +2 Equivalent, page 45. Unlike the spell it's based off, the Vampiric weapon property does actual healing, not just grant temporary hit points. Now, it's only 1d6, and you have to do more damage to your target than you're healed (you inflict an extra 1d6, but you still have to hit with the weapon), this normally wouldn't grant you limitless slow healing.

However, when combined with the Elemental Summoning Reserve feat (Complete Arcane), something interesting happens: you've got a limitless supply of critters to damage, that you can technically order not to fight back (and to stand still, close their eyes... not that elementals have eyes.... and so on for basically hitting a very low AC).

If you've got time to kill, target practice gets the entire party up to full HP. Hand dagger off to injured person, Wizard (or Cleric, or Druid, or anything else that has a 4th+ Conjouration(Summoning) spell available) Summons elemental and orders it to hold perfectly still and not fight back (technically a valid order if you can talk to it) and injured person repeatedly stabs elemental until healed. If/when the elemental dies, the Wizard (or Cleric, or Druid, etc) replaces it.

A +1 Vampiric Dagger markets at 18,302 gp. So for that, a feat (your ninth level feat, as you need to have 4th level spells to qualify, and you don't get a feat usable for Elemental Summoning until then... unless you're a Wizard that found a way to put off 5th level for a few levels) and a 4th level spell held in reserve, and you have limitless healing out of serious combat.

Mind you, you're spending as much on the Vampiric Dagger as you would on a little over 24 wands of Cure Light Wounds, so it's probably not worth it unless you're in a rather long campaign ... and you'll probably take an alignment hit, torturing all those poor elementals... but hey! Unlimited out of combat healing!

GrassyGnoll
2008-05-07, 09:34 PM
How about Tomb Tainted Soul and Charnel Touch? Dread Necromancers have been getting by on that for a while. Hell, assuming your entire party is properly "tainted" unlimited healing for all free*


* at the cost of a feat

Hal
2008-05-07, 09:36 PM
Yeah, as DM, I'd have those elementals turn on you the moment you strike it with the weapon.

mostlyharmful
2008-05-08, 01:44 AM
Meh, just stab commoners. far easier and doesn't burn a feat slot.:smallbiggrin::smallwink:

Admiral Squish
2008-05-08, 01:58 AM
Wait wait wait. It sucks the life force of whatever you stab, right? So, f you stab a zombie? Do you take negative energy damage?

Fizban
2008-05-08, 04:38 AM
I'd rather burn my feat on Draconic Aura (Vigor) and spend the money on Healing Belts and Amulets of Tears. If you've got two feats, take the aura and Minor Shapeshift, and you'll always be at 1/2 max+1/level hp, and that top 1/level comes back every turn.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-08, 06:03 AM
How about Tomb Tainted Soul and Charnel Touch? Dread Necromancers have been getting by on that for a while. Hell, assuming your entire party is properly "tainted" unlimited healing for all free*


* at the cost of a feat

That requires you to be evil - this (technically) doesn't (but you'll probably be labeled such by your DM; those poor tortured elementals...).
Likewise, Charnel Touch and Tomb-Tainted Soul requires a highly specific class in the party, and requires everyone who wants to benefit from it have a particular feat. The Vampiric Dagger / Summon Elemental combo requires one feat from a single player, one item (but that's just cash), applies to the entire party, and can be done with quite a few different classes (Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Bard, to name the Core classes that can pull it off - although the Bard has to wait until 12th, as he doesn't get 4th level spells until 10th, and then gets the next feat slot at 12th).


Yeah, as DM, I'd have those elementals turn on you the moment you strike it with the weapon.
*Shrug* so we immediately summon another one. It costs nothing more than a standard action (which, out of combat, is fine), and when we do so, the first vanishes.

Also, that's technically a (rather reasonable) house rule - it acts like it was brought in by a Summon Monster spell, which obeys orders, with no limitations given, per the description of Summon Monster 1.

Wait wait wait. It sucks the life force of whatever you stab, right? So, f you stab a zombie? Do you take negative energy damage?
Not quite. It does an extra 1d6 damage to living critters, and the wielder of the weapon is healed the same amount. No effect on nonliving creatures such as constructs or undead.

I'd rather burn my feat on Draconic Aura (Vigor) and spend the money on Healing Belts and Amulets of Tears. If you've got two feats, take the aura and Minor Shapeshift, and you'll always be at 1/2 max+1/level hp, and that top 1/level comes back every turn.I very much specified it wasn't an efficient use of resources in most cases.

However, the Summon Elemental reserve feat does have a few extra nifties: It can find mechanical traps (the hard way - a medium Earth Elemental with a 6th level spell slot held in reserve weighs enough that it'll trigger basically any mechanical trap that you would), swat mooks, and so on, too. Plus you can combine it with Minor Shapeshift, to always start combat at max + 1 hp/level - and that top 1 hp/level comes back every turn.

Chronos
2008-05-08, 03:44 PM
If you have Minor Shapeshift, you could also do it without Summon Elemental.
*gain temp HP*
"Hit me!"
*gain temp HP again*
"Hit me again!"
*gain more temp HP"
"OK, it's the rogue's turn now. Hit me!"
And so on. This would also have the advantage of being non-evil, though rather masochistic.

Craig1f
2008-05-08, 03:56 PM
Everything about this idea seems wrong from a tabletop RP perspective. If this were WoW or something, I'd say it's clever. But I can't imagine a party sitting around, deciding that this was a good idea.

Now, if you're in an extended mission ... behind enemy lines, in a forest, running low on food, out of healing wands, low on HP ... this would be very clever. But for this to be Plan A just seems obnoxious. Your DM will probably get irritated and not allow it, or he'll dock XP from you and the Wizard that helps you.

Edit: Don't get me wrong. This was a very clever idea to come up with. But not all clever ideas should actually be practiced. As long as you don't forgo buying cure light or lesser vigor wands, in favor of doing this all the time, I'd say it's a pretty neat exploit that you've found.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-08, 04:11 PM
Your DM will probably get irritated and not allow it, or he'll dock XP from you and the Wizard that helps you.

Or your DM might not be a whiny, hidebound, Dm who hates his players, and he might not throw a hissy fit every time a player comes up with an idea.

DementedFellow
2008-05-08, 04:21 PM
Or your DM might not be a whiny, hidebound, Dm who hates his players, and he might not throw a hissy fit every time a player comes up with an idea.

I can't see how many DMs would allow such behavior, even if the party is evil.

It's a novel idea, sure. But it's kinda hyperbolic that just because the DM would have some reservations with this idea that he hates his players and is whiny.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-08, 04:22 PM
If you have Minor Shapeshift, you could also do it without Summon Elemental.
*gain temp HP*
"Hit me!"
*gain temp HP again*
"Hit me again!"
*gain more temp HP"
"OK, it's the rogue's turn now. Hit me!"
And so on. This would also have the advantage of being non-evil, though rather masochistic.
... hey, improvement!

Oh, and masochistic is for little or no reason - it's sacrificial when it's to benefit someone else. Unless, you know, you specifically want to make it sound bad...


Everything about this idea seems wrong from a tabletop RP perspective. If this were WoW or something, I'd say it's clever. But I can't imagine a party sitting around, deciding that this was a good idea.
No lo contendre. It is a ridiculous tactic. I just found it amusing.


Now, if you're in an extended mission ... behind enemy lines, in a forest, running low on food, out of healing wands, low on HP ... this would be very clever. But for this to be Plan A just seems obnoxious. Your DM will probably get irritated and not allow it, or he'll dock XP from you and the Wizard that helps you.

You spend less on 24 wands of Lesser Vigor, more on 25 wands of lesser vigor, than you do setting this up. Each charge on a wand of lesser vigor heals 11 hp, and each wand has 50 charges. Before it becomes cost-effective, you need to go through roughly 13,750 hit points. If you don't have access to wands of lesser Vigor, each charge from a wand of Cure Light Wounds averages 5.5 hp (1d8+1); a full wand of Cure Light restores 275 hp on average, and the 25 of them needed for the Vampiric Blade to break even with wands of Cure Light is 6,875 hp restored. If a party goes through 6 hp * Character Level per encounter, 13 encounters per level, that's 16,380 hp damage over the gamut of 1-20 (well, assuming the party retires when it hits 21st). Oh, wait - we can't do this before 9th level, though - so that's from 9th to 21st, at 13,572 hp lost over that range. If you start as soon as you can, and keep it up until you hit 21st, the tactic beats out wands of Cure Light Wounds on cost efficiency by a factor of about 2, and doesn't quite match up with the cost efficiency on wands of lesser vigor ... but wands can be spread out, while the Vampiric Blade tactic is all up-front costs (at 9th, where the 18.3 k actually means something). If the party damage rate (that is, hp damage done to the party) is higher than that, the vampiric blade tactic is going to be better. If the party damage rate is lower than that, the wands are going to be better.

Really, mechanically, your best bet is wands of lesser vigor or wands of cure light wounds. I just find existing methods of infinite healing amusing (I know about one other: Persistent Spell Mass Lesser Vigor (generally done by Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell)) - fast healing 1 for the entire party all day).


Edit: Don't get me wrong. This was a very clever idea to come up with. But not all clever ideas should actually be practiced. As long as you don't forgo buying cure light or lesser vigor wands, in favor of doing this all the time, I'd say it's a pretty neat exploit that you've found.
Oh, yes - it's an exploit for sure; D&D was not designed with infinite healing in mind.

But then, infinite non-combat healing strengthens the classes based around at-will abilities (warlock, dragon shaman, fighter, rogue, the Druid to some extent, and so on) a fair amount without doing much for the classes based around per-day abilities (Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, the Druid to a goodly extent, and so on). Curiously, with the exception of the Druid, the classes that benefit the most from infinite healing are the classes that are generally considered weaker classes to begin with, and the classes it does the least for are generally considered the stronger classes to begin with.

Is it my imagination, or am I making a reasonable case for the exploit making the game more balanced?

Edit:

Or your DM might not be a whiny, hidebound, Dm who hates his players, and he might not throw a hissy fit every time a player comes up with an idea.
It's not whiny, hidebound, hating players, or a hissy fit when a DM thinks a particular idea is going to break the game, and decides not to permit it.


I can't see how many DMs would allow such behavior, even if the party is evil.
Understandable. Lots of DM's are frightened of the concept of the party hitting every encounter at full hp.

Overlard
2008-05-08, 04:29 PM
Or your DM might not be a whiny, hidebound, Dm who hates his players, and he might not throw a hissy fit every time a player comes up with an idea.
Or he might have some common sense and tell the players to come up with something that's more in the spirit of the rules.

And repeatedly summoning creatures just so you can injure them for your own benefit? Sounds pretty evil to me.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-08, 04:33 PM
Or he might have some common sense and tell the players to come up with something that's more in the spirit of the rules.I'd allow it, though like with any other action you'd run the risk of being found out (screaming elementals are kind of noticable).
And repeatedly summoning creatures just so you can injure them for your own benefit? Sounds pretty evil to me.Have you read the Malconverter class? That's their job.

DementedFellow
2008-05-08, 04:36 PM
Understandable. Lots of DM's are frightened of the concept of the party hitting every encounter at full hp.

It's more within the spirit of the game though. I mean you already showed how infeasible it is to do this from a cost-effective POV. It's like disallowing the rogues to steal from party members, it helps the game to prevent some character actions.

I just think this would get in the way of actual gameplay. Besides, some of the best evil characters, in any genre, don't go around killing puppies or attacking helpless things just for kicks and giggles. You can be evil without going overboard.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-08, 05:02 PM
I'd allow it, though like with any other action you'd run the risk of being found out (screaming elementals are kind of noticable).
Yes, but if that becomes too much of a problem, we use Chronos' Minor Shapeshift variant.

Have you read the Malconverter class? That's their job.Sorta. Their job is to hurt evil things in the service of good. Elementals are neutral. This tactic repeatedly hurts nonevil for potentially any purpose.

Or he might have some common sense and tell the players to come up with something that's more in the spirit of the rules.
Perfectly valid response.



And repeatedly summoning creatures just so you can injure them for your own benefit? Sounds pretty evil to me.Me too. So much so, I mentioned it in the first post.



It's more within the spirit of the game though. I mean you already showed how infeasible it is to do this from a cost-effective POV. It's like disallowing the rogues to steal from party members, it helps the game to prevent some character actions.

... once you get past the "ick" factor, how does this actually interrupt game play any more than burning through wands of cure light?

With a Rogue stealing from a party member, there's a noticeable cost - the rogue is strengthening his gaming position at the cost of everyone else's; gaining spotlight time by being better able to handle things at the cost of other's spotlight time. With this, the entire party benefits equally (unless there's someone who has particular objections in the group) as the dagger (or sap, or club, or...) can simply be passed around.


I just think this would get in the way of actual gameplay. Besides, some of the best evil characters, in any genre, don't go around killing puppies or attacking helpless things just for kicks and giggles. You can be evil without going overboard.
This isn't evil for grins, it's not torture for the sake of torture. This is one of the types where the person doing it has the potential to rationalize; see, the elementals so Summoned don't receive any lasting harm (except, perhaps, mental scarring) as they're Summoned, not Called. If you kill one doing this, it simply reforms on it's home plane 24 hours later, none the worse for wear by RAW (except, perhaps, mental scarring). Meanwhile, you're getting a very real benefit for yourself and your friends - healing. Something positive with nothing negative (the "evil" aspect comes primarily from ignoring the pain the elementals go through; under the "no compassion for others" aspect of the evil alignment description - without the compassion aspect to worry about the pain on the elementals' part, there's nothing negative happening).

Chronos
2008-05-08, 05:10 PM
Really, mechanically, your best bet is wands of lesser vigor or wands of cure light wounds. I just find existing methods of infinite healing amusing (I know about one other: Persistent Spell Mass Lesser Vigor (generally done by Divine Metamagic(Persistent Spell)) - fast healing 1 for the entire party all day).The simplest method by far for gaining infinite healing is a binder-7 (or 5, with Improved Binding) who binds Buer. You yourself gain fast healing, and once every five rounds, you can heal anyone else of 1d8+level (max +10) points. I wouldn't actually recommend it until level 8, though, because Buer doesn't grant much besides healing, and up until level 8, you only get one vestige per day, so you'd be stuck doing nothing but the out-of-combat healing.

Debateably, a Crusader might also be able to provide unlimited out-of-combat healing, though that depends on what precisely constitutes an encounter, and how per-encounter abilities work during downtime. Additionally, one of the Dragon Shaman's auras and the Touch of Healing reserve feat both give limitless amounts of healing, but both only work up to half maximum HP.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-08, 05:17 PM
It's not whiny, hidebound, hating players, or a hissy fit when a DM thinks a particular idea is going to break the game, and decides not to permit it.

It is if the thing in question doesn't break the game.

Leewei
2008-05-08, 05:45 PM
Or your DM might not be a whiny, hidebound, Dm who hates his players, and he might not throw a hissy fit every time a player comes up with an idea.

At this point, I'm quite happy none of my players would ever have the poor character to say such a thing about their DM. You can, of course, be equally happy not to be in a game I run.

And hell yes, I'd put an end to those shenanigans. Is this an exercise in number crunching, or an epic fantasy? While not necessarily exclusive to each other, I'd much rather do the epic fantasy thing. Chicks dig an epic fantasy campaign.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-08, 05:49 PM
The simplest method by far for gaining infinite healing is a binder-7 (or 5, with Improved Binding) who binds Buer. You yourself gain fast healing, and once every five rounds, you can heal anyone else of 1d8+level (max +10) points. I wouldn't actually recommend it until level 8, though, because Buer doesn't grant much besides healing, and up until level 8, you only get one vestige per day, so you'd be stuck doing nothing but the out-of-combat healing.

That technically works, but for my purposes, you need to be able to do other stuff well too - if all you can do is band-aid, the game is too dull for that player.


Debateably, a Crusader might also be able to provide unlimited out-of-combat healing, though that depends on what precisely constitutes an encounter, and how per-encounter abilities work during downtime.

The Tome of Battle actually includes some definitions for that - you just need five minutes peace to reset your per-encounter abilities. Not that it matters too much, as it's a stance, not a manuever, that you'd use for that. Yay! Third method that works for my purposes!


Additionally, one of the Dragon Shaman's auras and the Touch of Healing reserve feat both give limitless amounts of healing, but both only work up to half maximum HP.
Yeah, if it can't get you to full, it doesn't count as infinite healing for my purposes.

Ooh - pure Core: Amulet of the Planes, or a Cubic Gate: Go to the Positive Energy Plane, wait a while, and come back!

Of course, neither of those get you back to the same location, and they fail if the area is under Forbiddance or similar.... drat, doesn't work for my purposes.

It is if the thing in question doesn't break the game.
It doesn't matter whether or not it's going to actually break the game. It just has to be perceived as game-breaking by someone who's mostly reasonable.

Chronos
2008-05-08, 06:01 PM
That technically works, but for my purposes, you need to be able to do other stuff well too - if all you can do is band-aid, the game is too dull for that player.Right, that's why I recommended waiting until at least level 8, though it's still a pretty significant investment (only half of your primary class abilities spent on healing, instead of all of them!). Might make a pretty good cohort, though.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-08, 06:05 PM
Right, that's why I recommended waiting until at least level 8, though it's still a pretty significant investment (only half of your primary class abilities spent on healing, instead of all of them!). Might make a pretty good cohort, though.That would do it, but Cohorts are a bit DM dependent. Hmm... take cohort at 6th, get him to 5th level when you're at 7th, and make sure he takes the Improved Binding so he can get Buer as soon as possible.

Aust Xiloscient
2008-05-08, 06:31 PM
What if you could take the vampiric blade and have a few human commoners that you harvested for HP each night? Plus they make good redshirts. It requires a thoroughly evil campaign, but in my opinion that's better than burning a feat just so that you can heal yourself.

Chosen_of_Vecna
2008-05-08, 09:19 PM
It doesn't matter whether or not it's going to actually break the game. It just has to be perceived as game-breaking by someone who's mostly reasonable.

Being reasonable most of the time doesn't magically make your opinions reasonable when they are unreasonable. If you are wrong about something, then you are wrong. If you perceive something as being game breaking when it isn't, and ignore or refuse to comprehend that fact when it is pointed out, then you are being an unreasonable git. Just because you aren't normally, doesn't mean that it's okay when you are.

Jack_Simth
2008-05-08, 11:24 PM
What if you could take the vampiric blade and have a few human commoners that you harvested for HP each night? Plus they make good redshirts. It requires a thoroughly evil campaign, but in my opinion that's better than burning a feat just so that you can heal yourself.
It's also limited based on the number of commoners you can find. The combination with Summon Elemental or Minor Shapeshift lets you heal anybody that can wield a dagger (and that you can trust to return one worth 18,302 gp) for an arbitrarily large amount of HP (given time - at 1d6/round, more with iterative attacks), when sealed up in a small room.

Being reasonable most of the time doesn't magically make your opinions reasonable when they are unreasonable. If you are wrong about something, then you are wrong. If you perceive something as being game breaking when it isn't, and ignore or refuse to comprehend that fact when it is pointed out, then you are being an unreasonable git. Just because you aren't normally, doesn't mean that it's okay when you are.
No, but a DM working with strong classes who's only daily resource is their HP, and that he sees as strong classes without limitless healing (Warblades, Crusaders, Swordsages, perhaps); it's very easy to see that as gamebreaking, especially to a DM who likes to occasionally make the party sweat due to endurance issues on lots of relatively minor threats (an option which goes away in a party where someone's pulling this off). The tactic makes the DM unable to bring certain types of pressure to bear against the party. If you'll note, just from this thread, Hal decided the elementals would turn against you for this, Craig1f called it "wrong from a tabletop RP perspective" and "obnoxious" (when used as plan A); DementedFellow said "I can't see how many DMs would allow such behavior" - and that's just from the first ten replies to the thread. Someone who says this shouldn't be done is still being quite reasonable, because there are circumstances under which it could break the game.

Hmm... swordsage could pull it off, too, without the feat - Distracting Ember is Desert Wind-1, and produces a Small Fire elemental - everyone else would need to use readied actions, though, to take advantage of it, as the Small Fire elemental doesn't last long. By extension, anyone above 2nd level with the appropriate weapon could arrange to do this once every five minutes by burning their 3rd level feat slot on Martial Study(Desert Wind, Distracting Ember).

Overlard
2008-05-09, 06:43 AM
Being reasonable most of the time doesn't magically make your opinions reasonable when they are unreasonable. If you are wrong about something, then you are wrong. If you perceive something as being game breaking when it isn't, and ignore or refuse to comprehend that fact when it is pointed out, then you are being an unreasonable git. Just because you aren't normally, doesn't mean that it's okay when you are.
That's funny. And here was me thinking it was you that was wrong and being an unreasonable fool.

UserClone
2008-05-09, 07:36 PM
*Casts calm emotions* Listen: whether or not something is game-breaking depends on whose game it is, what the characters are, so many factors that it's essentially entirely subjective.