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View Full Version : What is the best class for a Crusader?



Frosty
2008-05-08, 06:08 PM
I'm trying to decide between Human, Dwarf, and Catfolk. Starting ECL is 16, and we'll be under attack from an invading army or something. Each has its ups and downs and I can't quite decide. Can anyone help me decide, and are there any better races?

Human is good obviously for the feat and skillpoints.

Dwarf gets to see in the dark, have great saves against spells, are tougher than normal, have only have -2 to charisma. Cha is *almost* a dump stat for Crusaders, since smite is only 1/day at this level. Oh yeah, they only get 20 land speed, which may or may not be a huge deal.

Catfolk are fast. They get great dex (+4) which is cool for a lockdown build. They also get +2 cha which menas an extra Will Save which is nice. +1 Natural armor to become harder to hit is good. Bad thing is the +1 LA.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-08, 06:20 PM
Catfolk is meh. With a good boosting item, you'll have more AoO's than you'll ever need, and even with buyback, LA is bad, so they go out of the window.

Dwarf is possible...in fact, very good. I'd consider it.

But if I had to pick, I'd take human. Extra skillpoints are really useful, and an extra feat is just too versatile to give up.

Hal
2008-05-08, 06:30 PM
Best class for a Crusader? I guess Druid, or maybe Cleric. :smallwink:

You can't go wrong with humans. An extra feat is an extra feat.

Edit
Actually, if you're considering something with a LA, why not Goliath? They can easily get reach like a large creature, which makes a Crusder's lockdown build even more effective.

Eldariel
2008-05-08, 06:40 PM
Human. Really, the extra feat is pretty much an überbenefit that outweights almost anything else. Much more so for a feat intensive class that wants way more feats than it can have, and gets nice kickass enhancements from multiples. It's sort of annoying, but the only things that really make up for the feat are large size or some immense bonuses to everything (which generally makes you LA+1 which generally makes everything suck again).

Although, I suppose Dwarf is ok if you feel the need for great saves, but you'll probably be missing the feat anyways.

Worira
2008-05-08, 06:41 PM
I suggest Crusader. I'm so witty.

Fr srs, though, I've always been partial to Raptorans and Warforged. I want to make a Warforged Crusader that combines Shocking Fist with healing manoeuvres. Out of the three listed, humans always work goodly. Dwarves' movement penalty shouldn't be an issue for a crusader, since they should be wearing heavy armour.

Chronos
2008-05-08, 06:42 PM
Ah, the good old days when Dwarf was a class.

Hal, how does a Goliath get greater reach? You can wield bigger weapons, but that doesn't mean that you get the reach of a bigger creature. Of course, the +4 Str is good for any melee build, and Powerful Build does give you a bonus on trips, so it still might be a good idea.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-08, 06:50 PM
Yeah, if you want reach, you take Half Minotaur.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-08, 06:56 PM
If your DM allows LA Buyback, take Karsite (Tome of Magic): all the advantages of a human plus spell resistance, a magic item draining touch, ability bonuses, and other niceties. With only +2 LA, you can pay your LA down to zero by level 9.

If not, Dwarf and Human are likely best, though there is a nice Elf only martial adept PrC (Eternal Blade) that's easy for Crusaders to qualify for once they hit level 10.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-08, 06:59 PM
Actually, you pay it off at 12. It bites you in the ass for a long while. In my book, anything short of the Whale or Half ogre is not worth it, because the penalty better be offset BIG TIME by what I gain; After all, losing a level on anything but a skillmonkey is catastrophic.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-08, 07:03 PM
You might want to look at Krinth (its in one of the FR books). +2 Con, -2 Cha, and a few other nice bonuses without the dwarfs movement reduction all for LA +0. Dragonborn may be worth a look as well.

Human's are only good if you can't Chaos shuffle, if you can then any race that gets any racial bonus feats has the same benefits.

Hal
2008-05-08, 07:12 PM
Hal, how does a Goliath get greater reach? You can wield bigger weapons, but that doesn't mean that you get the reach of a bigger creature. Of course, the +4 Str is good for any melee build, and Powerful Build does give you a bonus on trips, so it still might be a good idea.

Well, hm . . . I'd had in my mind that there's a feat you can take that boosts your reach (provided you already have Powerful Build), but now that I'm trying to find it, I can't recall what it is!

I guess I'll be rescinding that remark until further notice.

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-08, 07:13 PM
If its with Goliath, I believe that they get an alternate rage where they truly become large. That might be what your thinking of.

SadisticFishing
2008-05-08, 07:17 PM
Raptoran is really good, for flight, as would be Dragonborn. Get a piercing weapon and do double damage on a charge - charge a lot. With Improved Flyby Attack, you can: charge, strike/move away, charge...rinse and repeat.

Frosty
2008-05-08, 07:21 PM
So you guys say that Crusader is really feat intensive? I hadn't noticed that much so far with my level 11 crusader...I mean, it's always nice ot have more feats, but what feats would you say are must have?

Smiley_
2008-05-08, 07:25 PM
If this is the campaign I am thinking of, you will have to pass the details past the DM. I am ok with ToB in this campaign, considering my demonologist can summon 1d4+1 hezrous as a standard action 3 times a day, and that isn't even the most he can do.

Anyway, dwarf may be good for fluff, but humans get that extra feat and more skill points (that's why they are the dominant race in most campaign settings) and you don't need to worry about multiclassing junk.

And Emporror Tippy, krinth are in the FR book, Champions of Ruin, or some such book.

Frosty
2008-05-08, 07:27 PM
I do not plan to multiclass anyways. I don't wanna lose initiators. Oh well, I'v got crusaders in other games that could this advice.

Smiley_
2008-05-08, 07:28 PM
If feats and such are not neccesary, I would go dwarf. More HP, resistances to magic, go for it!

Hal
2008-05-08, 07:48 PM
If its with Goliath, I believe that they get an alternate rage where they truly become large. That might be what your thinking of.

That's probably it. Goliath Barbarians have racial substitution levels, and the first level gives them an alternative rage where they become truly Large creatures while they rage. However . . .


I do not plan to multiclass anyways. I don't wanna lose initiators. Oh well, I'v got crusaders in other games that could this advice.

Since Frosty doesn't won't be wanting level of Goliath Barbarian, it's a moot point.

Frosty
2008-05-08, 08:21 PM
I already have 1 LA with Goliath. Taking a level in Barbarian means I'll be two levels behind. Besides, don't barbarians have to be non-lawful? It wouldn't mesh well with my crusader.

Roderick_BR
2008-05-08, 08:57 PM
Ah, the good old days when Dwarf was a class.

Hal, how does a Goliath get greater reach? You can wield bigger weapons, but that doesn't mean that you get the reach of a bigger creature. Of course, the +4 Str is good for any melee build, and Powerful Build does give you a bonus on trips, so it still might be a good idea.
Only if you get the mountain rage variant barbarian for goliaths. When you rage, your powerful build is replaced by an actual size increase: you become large size (that you already gained from powerful build, so it doesn't change much), gains reach, unarmed attack damage increases, you still use the same large weapon, your armor still fits (it's already almost halfway towards large), and you get -1 to attack rolls and AC. And a +2 bonus strength bonus to your rage strength bonus.

Douglas
2008-05-08, 09:16 PM
Best class? Master of Nine. Nothing beats having 5 extra maneuvers readied and granted. Of course, the prerequisites are hellaciously tough for a Crusader without multiclassing, but a one level dip in Swordsage or Warblade is probably better than almost any LA +1 race anyway and you're willing to take that apparently.

Grynning
2008-05-08, 10:13 PM
I already have 1 LA with Goliath. Taking a level in Barbarian means I'll be two levels behind. Besides, don't barbarians have to be non-lawful? It wouldn't mesh well with my crusader.

Crusaders do not have to be Lawful. This would only be an issue if you'd already settled on a Lawful deity.

Chronos
2008-05-08, 10:28 PM
I think she meant that the character concept she had in mind to role-play would be better as lawful, not that Crusader required it.

SadisticFishing
2008-05-09, 12:49 AM
So you guys say that Crusader is really feat intensive? I hadn't noticed that much so far with my level 11 crusader...I mean, it's always nice ot have more feats, but what feats would you say are must have?

Shock Trooper, Leap Attack :D

Eldariel
2008-05-09, 01:04 AM
The short list of Crusader-feats:

-Extra Granted Maneuver
-EWP: Spiked Chain
-Combat Reflexes
-Karmic Strike
-Mage Slayer
-Combat Expertise
-Improved Trip
-Stand Still
-Power Attack
-Improved Bull Rush
-Shock Trooper
-Leap Attack
-Stone Power
-Defensive Sweep


And that's without taking any ToB tacticals. No, you don't want all of those, but all of those can be useful and you would want all of those if you had the slots. And then some. Feats are a commodity you won't have too many of.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 01:30 AM
Is a feat worth more than the Dwarf racials is the question.

With 2 flaws and being a dwarf, I can have 9 feats.

EWP, Power Attack, Stand Still, Mage Slayer, Combat Reflexes, Extra Granted Maneuvers, Leap Atack, Martial Stance (Immortal Fortitude).

Eldariel
2008-05-09, 01:44 AM
Is a feat worth more than the Dwarf racials is the question.

With 2 flaws and being a dwarf, I can have 9 feats.

EWP, Power Attack, Stand Still, Mage Slayer, Combat Reflexes, Extra Granted Maneuvers, Leap Atack, Martial Stance (Immortal Fortitude).

On what planet do you plan on getting Immortal Fortitude by 11 Initiator Levels? Much comes down to how high Dex you're gonna have; a Human is going to be much more mobile in a light armor while a heavy armor decidedly favours the Dwarf.

The saves and HP are "better" than a feat (that is, you can't make up for them with a feat), that's a given, but fact is that there's a reason you aren't picking Improved Toughness; your feats are better than that. Also, the skillpoints aren't actually null and void since Crusader has quite a nice skill list so it's handy to have some picks there.


Generally, purely powerwise, it's foolish to pick anything but Human. However, if you'd rather be a Dwarf, feel free.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 01:49 AM
I have 16 initiator levels. This is a different game I'm applying for. I will likely have high dex. I dunno...what to to...what to do.

given my list of feats so far, what would be the next feat you'd take if I switched to human and got an extra feat?

Eldariel
2008-05-09, 01:55 AM
Robilar's Gambit, easily. Also, I'd probably drop Leap Attack; I'd probably go for Shock Trooper before going for it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-09, 04:25 PM
Generally, purely powerwise, it's foolish to pick anything but Human. However, if you'd rather be a Dwarf, feel free.
Not really. Any LA +0 race with any racial bonus feats is more powerful than a human if you can Chaos Shuffle.

And, to be honest, the right stat bonuses can be worth far more than the 1 free feat. +2 Int is +1 to all save DC's for a wizard (the equivalent of several feats). +2 Cha is the same for sorcerers/bards. +2 Con is Improved Toughness and a +1 to all Fort saves. +2 Dex is Dodge and a +1 to all Reflex saves.

Humans are a great baseline race, but they don't compare to more specialized races when optimizing for a specific build.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-05-09, 04:33 PM
Not really. Any LA +0 race with any racial bonus feats is more powerful than a human if you can Chaos Shuffle.Does anyone actually allow Chaos Shuffling? I mean, that always seems like the sort of thing Rule 0 will gank about 10 seconds after it finishes beating up Manipulate Form.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 04:43 PM
I have not met anyone willing to do chaos shuffling.

Keld Denar
2008-05-09, 04:49 PM
I have not met anyone willing to do chaos shuffling.

Nor have I.

What kind of crusader are you looking to go for? You already have one lockdown oriented Crusader, do you really want to clone him?

I'd go dwarf. Get a war axe and a nice shield. Break the mold. Stone Power it up. Maybe look into Deep Warden.

Oh, snap, I was just thinking. A Raptorin Crusader focused in White Raven charges with a Valorous weapon and all that diving attack shanangans. Ouchies...

Or screw it, play a Dragonfire Adept. They are much cooler anyway.

Or better yet, play a Crusader with a Dragonfire Adept on a shouldermount. You are now a D&D equivilant of a mech complete with flamethrower and battlefist. Of course, now I'm being silly, but still, pwnsause is the best flavor of sause.

Emperor Tippy
2008-05-09, 04:54 PM
Does anyone actually allow Chaos Shuffling? I mean, that always seems like the sort of thing Rule 0 will gank about 10 seconds after it finishes beating up Manipulate Form.

I do. It's less broken than a lot of the stuff WotC has put out.

Spontaneous Divination, Elf Generalist, Celerity, Shapechange, Astral Projection, Lion Totem Barbarian, Archivist, Artificer, etc.

Chaos Shuffling only gets (somewhat) broken when its used with racial bonus feats. Outside of that its just a way to alter choices you have made (like retraining feats or a few other ways to change them).

Keld Denar
2008-05-09, 05:09 PM
Yea, there was a thread over on CO to try to see how many feats could be squeezed out of a single character, and I think the last number was 504....That's pretty stupid. Even normally, something like retraining elven rapier proficiency into Leap Attack strikes me as being on the other side of legal.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 05:49 PM
Or better yet, play a Crusader with a Dragonfire Adept on a shouldermount. You are now a D&D equivilant of a mech complete with flamethrower and battlefist. Of course, now I'm being silly, but still, pwnsause is the best flavor of sause.

I am intrigued. Shouldermount?

Frosty
2008-05-09, 09:00 PM
By the way, is it redundant to get both Improved Trip and Stand Still? both have their own disadvantages and advantages.

EvilElitest
2008-05-09, 09:11 PM
I'm trying to decide between Human, Dwarf, and Catfolk. Starting ECL is 16, and we'll be under attack from an invading army or something. Each has its ups and downs and I can't quite decide. Can anyone help me decide, and are there any better races?

Human is good obviously for the feat and skillpoints.

Dwarf gets to see in the dark, have great saves against spells, are tougher than normal, have only have -2 to charisma. Cha is *almost* a dump stat for Crusaders, since smite is only 1/day at this level. Oh yeah, they only get 20 land speed, which may or may not be a huge deal.

Catfolk are fast. They get great dex (+4) which is cool for a lockdown build. They also get +2 cha which menas an extra Will Save which is nice. +1 Natural armor to become harder to hit is good. Bad thing is the +1 LA.

don't you mean what is the best race for a crusader?
from
EE

Coplantor
2008-05-09, 09:22 PM
If you mean the crusader class, then probably dwarf or human. If you mean crusader as a concept, then probably dwarf or human. Humans have the extra feat and skill while dwarves are good warriors and narrow minded so they are the most likely race to devote themselves to one cause.

Frosty
2008-05-09, 09:30 PM
don't you mean what is the best race for a crusader?
from
EE

Yes, I meant Race.

Keld Denar
2008-05-10, 10:01 AM
I am intrigued. Shouldermount?

This is a reference to the Dragonfire Adepts Handbook by JanusJones over on the CharOp forums. He talked a bit about what classes synergize will with a DFA, and mentioned something about a Goliath lockdown Crusader with a Jermallaine DFA perched on his shoulder as the closest thing to a Mech you can have in D&D. Between Entangling Exhalation and Weakening Breath, the DFA keeps things debuffed and hobbled so bad that the Crusader can easily keep them locked down to the point where the enemy is so profoundly screwed, they literally have to sit there and wait for their turn to die. Shake and Bake baby, Shake and Bake!

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-11, 08:25 PM
Actually, you pay it off at 12. It bites you in the ass for a long while. In my book, anything short of the Whale or Half ogre is not worth it, because the penalty better be offset BIG TIME by what I gain; After all, losing a level on anything but a skillmonkey is catastrophic.

I suspect you're multiplying by four when the RLA UA rules say three.


Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.

Link: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

The first time a Karsite gets to use RLA is at ECL 8 (LA 2 + 6 class levels), which reduces their ECL to 7. Three levels later, at ECL 10 (LA 1 + 9 class levels) the Karsite can pay it down to end up at ECL 9 at which point they are free of level adjustments.

So any time you are playing a human above level 9 who doesn't do arcane or divine spellcasting you would be better off as a Karsite. Assuming your DM allows Reducing Level Adjustments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm) at all, of course. If he/she does not then taking anything with LA is a very bad idea except for very specific builds and races.

Tokiko Mima
2008-05-11, 09:09 PM
Does anyone actually allow Chaos Shuffling? I mean, that always seems like the sort of thing Rule 0 will gank about 10 seconds after it finishes beating up Manipulate Form.

It's actually not that unbalanced, if it's not reaching into racial feats and using them. Psionic characters get Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) as a fourth level power that lets them manipulate not only Feats, but also skills and power choices. Retraining is an option for anyone using rules out of Players Handbook II and while it can require questing it can be a much more extensive of character reworking (allowing class/race change, for example).

Dark Chaos Shuffles advantage is that it's more or less free to a wizard with time on their hands and the ability to cast 8th level spells. I don't consider that to be overpowered, on a whole. Maybe in campaigns with no psionics and no retraining allowed, but then only because Wizards are getting yet another power that's now nigh impossible for others to obtain.