The Gaang, Inuyasha's group, and Space Marine Squad Free-For-All

[Lord of Rapture]

The arena is a perfectly flat, grassy plain with no trees or any kind of cover. No combatants have any knowledge of each other until they are 50 feet away. Just assume they were sent down by Tzeentch or the Deceiver or something else.:smalltongue: No group may call upon allies.

For the Gaang:
1. It consists of Aang, Katara, Sokka, Toph, Zuko, and Suki.
2. All benders can use their abilities to their full potential.

For Inuyasha's group:
1. It consists of Inuyasha, Kagome, Miroku, Sango, and Shippo.
2. The Gaang and the Space Marines do not count as yokai.

For the Space Marine Squad:
1. The Space Marines come from the Ultramarine Chapter.
2. It consists of a Space Marine Sergeant armed with a plasma pistol and a power sword, and three other regular marines armed with any other weaponry available to Ultramarines.
3. No Terminators or calls for orbital bombardment.

Match-ups:
1. Gaang vs. Inuyasha's group
2. Gaang vs. Space Marine Squad
3. Inuyasha's group vs. Space Marine Squad
4. Gaang vs. Inuyasha's group vs. Space Marine Squad

[Azerian Kelimon]

Space marines. Just look at the other WH40K vs. X threads for details. They just have to do "The american way" of shooting and score an easy victory.

[Mr. Scaly]

Do any of the groups have any info on each other?

Edit: It seems I'm blind...

I think the Inuyasha crew would probably beat the Space marines. Rockets fired on full automatic get sucked into mini blackholes just as easily as the guys wielding them. I'm not sure about the rest of the matches though...I'll have to think about it.

[tyckspoon]

Gaang crushes Inuyasha's team. Earthbending wraps up Miroku to prevent him from trying to trump people with his black-hole curse, and then bending and the Gaang's own martial arts skills take down the rest of Team Dog easily.

Miroku beats Space Marines, assuming none of the things they can throw at him are dangerous to absorb with aforementioned cursed arm. They could split up to try and outmaneuver his cone of death, but that's just inviting Inuyasha to destroy them in a one on one fight where his superior anime-type strength, toughness, and Giant Energy Attacks can easily beat down a Space Marine. Kagome and Sango mostly try not to get shot; unless Sango picked up a major powerup in some filler, I don't think her giant boomerang is apt to do much more than rattle a Marine, and Kagome is fairly useless without a demon to purge with sacredness.

Space Marines vs. Gaang.. I will provisionally give to the Marines. They have heavy enough weaponry to bust through most all bending defenses I've seen and fight well enough to bring down the Gaang hand-to-hand if need be. On the other hand, good Earthbending could just see them knocked off their feet over and over without getting many chances to employ their guns. And Earthbending with lethal intent is something I don't think they have any functional counter for; how does a Marine escape being sucked underground and squished?

[Azerian Kelimon]

Spitted acid. Should be enough to cut the concentration. And, you know, the marines can spread around.

[Anteros]

I don't think the Avatar universe has anything that could take Inuyasha down if he's taking them seriously.

Space marines is more iffy. Comes down to who reacts first.

[warty goblin]

Wait...anything that's available to Space Marines (and presumably man-portable)? Hello, vortex grenades, goodbye everyone else...

[Tengu]

Wait...anything that's available to Space Marines (and presumably man-portable)? Hello, vortex grenades, goodbye everyone else...

Airbended back to their throwers. See you, space marines!

[Rutee]

...Heh. Right, I'd forgotten that Marines tend to operate on actual physics, to a degree. And about Miroku, since he's so easy to write off in the anime, in execution.

Chapter Librarians are Psykers, right? What's normal for a Librarian's Psyker abilities (None of that Alpha++ **** now; That's the Emperor and some of his kids. 'Normal' Psykers)

[tyckspoon]

Chapter Librarians are Psykers, right? What's normal for a Librarian's Psyker abilities (None of that Alpha++ **** now; That's the Emperor and some of his kids. 'Normal' Psykers)

hmm. Depends on the Chapter in question (some of 'em practice different thematically appropriate powers) and whether you want the tabletop or the fluff ability.. either way, a Librarian is going to be a combat-level psyker. That's the level of psychic that *can* throw Force Lightning, explode heads, hyper-accelerate themselves to beat up their enemies, or spontaneously generate wrenches inside machines, as opposed to the run of the mill psyker that can't do that stuff without either exploding his own head or spending long minutes or even hours working at it. In fluff, a Librarian will probably be capable of performing all of those. On the tabletop, I think the current standard Librarian power is superspeed that grants a variable number of extra Attacks.

[Twin2]

Chapter Librarians are Psykers, right? What's normal for a Librarian's Psyker abilities (None of that Alpha++ **** now; That's the Emperor and some of his kids. 'Normal' Psykers)

Depends what level they are, deltas can crush a man in seconds it seems, but that's the extent of any info given on psycher abilities that I've found.

[Lord of Rapture]

...Heh. Right, I'd forgotten that Marines tend to operate on actual physics, to a degree. And about Miroku, since he's so easy to write off in the anime, in execution.

Chapter Librarians are Psykers, right? What's normal for a Librarian's Psyker abilities (None of that Alpha++ **** now; That's the Emperor and some of his kids. 'Normal' Psykers)

Erm, no librarians in this matchup. That would be too cheap... and confusing- people would be arguing whether the librarians' psychic hood (or something) cancels out the abilities of the others.

[Storm Bringer]

...Heh. Right, I'd forgotten that Marines tend to operate on actual physics, to a degree. And about Miroku, since he's so easy to write off in the anime, in execution.

Chapter Librarians are Psykers, right? What's normal for a Librarian's Psyker abilities (None of that Alpha++ **** now; That's the Emperor and some of his kids. 'Normal' Psykers)

kinda of moot, as a Librarian IS a alpha ++++ psyker. Any psyker that isn't total badass don't see the battlefield, espically as a SMurf Librarian.

But, to answer your question, the standard powers of a 40K Librarian, as of the last codex:

'storm of the emperors wrath': pistol shot range, strong as a bolter shell, goes though armour like a plasma round, and a AOE effect the size of a frag missile.

''vortex of doom': like a vortex grenade, but without all that mucking about with throwing things. models DO get a reflex save equivilent, but any who fail are dead and gone.

'Veil of time': game terms, re-roll pretty much any dice roll. fluff terms, hje Librariangets short term presenice, ie he can see info the future for a short while and can alter the path it will take.

'fear of darkness': psykic fear affect. save or run basically.

'fury of the ancients': sort like a cross between a lighting bolt and a phantasmal killer: wierd psykic thing charges forward and deals a lot do damage to anything in it's way.


now, by the rules, a normal Librarian only knows ONE of these powers, while chapters chief Librarian, the epistolary, knows two. they knows other, non-combat powers, but they are never exapnded upon.

[Rutee]

kinda of moot, as a Librarian IS a alpha ++++ psyker. Any psyker that isn't total badass don't see the battlefield, espically as a SMurf Librarian.
They're better then the Emperor?

[Selrahc]

kinda of moot, as a Librarian IS a alpha ++++ psyker. Any psyker that isn't total badass don't see the battlefield, espically as a SMurf Librarian.


Alpha and Alpha plus refer to psykers who are on a scale of power where they can alter the course of a war. Telekene's strong enough to disembowel battle titans, telpaths powerful enough to control armies, biomancers who can shape flesh to whatever they can imagine, and heal from lascannons in seconds, daemonoligists who twist the warp into ribbons and smash the laws of physics in any conceivable way and so on.

Very very rare, and not likely to get inducted into a Space Marine chapter, since they also turn batcrap crazy incredibly easily. In normal imperial society they would get sanctioned(lobotomized) and have most of their power stripped away, but since the Space Marines don't do that they would have to only select psykers who aren't at such a high risk. The Librarians though tend to be a fairly healthy step above the power levels of normal impereial psykers, since they lack that lobotomy.

[Storm Bringer]

sorry, overstatement/ non specific use of terminology.

what i ment was that any psyker who was strong enough to use his powers on the battlefeild is mentally much, much stronger than an 'average' psyker, most of whom end up in the Golden Throne/ astronomicon/ some other non-combat role. Space Marine Librarian are among the most powerful sanctioned psykers in the imperium. they are badass by 40k standards.

[Fri]

Sigh. Don't tell me that Space Marine is the new Sauron.

Now we just had to wait for the inevitable 'Space Marine vs Naruto' Thread.

I enjoy vs thread as much as the person above me, but there's neither a logical theme or power level for this thread, sorry.

Needless to say, Inuyasha's group The space marine will win.

[Artemician]

Sigh. Don't tell me that Space Marine is the new Sauron.

Now we just had to wait for the inevitable 'Space Marine vs Naruto' Thread.

I enjoy vs thread as much as the person above me, but there's neither a logical theme or power level for this thread, sorry.

Needless to say, Inuyasha's group The space marine will win.

I pretty much agree with all of your statements.

Space Marines are powerful, but they are not the be-all-and-end-all of power, especially when compared to long running shounen anime.

[LBO]

Well, I don't know anything about Inuyasha, so Avatar vs 40k ahoy!

6 v 4 hardly seems fair, though.

...You'd need six hundred benders for it to be fair. :smallamused:

Avatar stuff simply has no chance against the Astartes. Fire? No. Air? No. Earth? Psh, Space Marines are actually as stupidly resistant to being crushed, bludgeoned and smashed into giant rocks as everyone in Avatar seems to be. The only thing that has a chance of genuinely hurting them would be Katara's bloodbending, and even if it did work against their weird and comprehensively superhuman biology, the poor girl would barely be able to take down one marine before she got blown to paste by a hail of mass-reactive bolt rounds. Marines have the tremendous advantage of ranged weapons, and even if they didn't, it would only be a matter of time and endurance until they got into close combat and ripped the Gaang limb from limb.

Like I said, I know nothing about Inuyasha, but unless they have powers that can defend against giant flamethrowers, gobs of superheated plasma, tank-killing lasers and melta beams, fully-automatic armour-piercing RPGs in pistol, assault rifle and support weapon sizes, and super bazookas, they're dead. Unless they also have powers that can instantly kill a genetic superman wearing a tank. If so... call in the Adeptus Custodes.


Space Marines are powerful, but they are not the be-all-and-end-all of power, especially when compared to long running shounen anime.
Truth, in part because shounen protagonists generally have Mary Sue power escalation that can do whatever the hell the plot and special effects budget demand. Anything with clearly defined abilities and limitations will lose to something without them. And everything will lose to TTGL.

[Artemician]

Well, I don't know anything about Inuyasha, so Avatar vs 40k ahoy!

6 v 4 hardly seems fair, though.

...You'd need six hundred benders for it to be fair. :smallamused:

Avatar stuff simply has no chance against the Astartes. Fire? No. Air? No. Earth? Psh, Space Marines are actually as stupidly resistant to being crushed, bludgeoned and smashed into giant rocks as everyone in Avatar seems to be. The only thing that has a chance of genuinely hurting them would be Katara's bloodbending, and even if it did work against their weird and comprehensively superhuman biology, the poor girl would barely be able to take down one marine before she got blown to paste by a hail of mass-reactive bolt rounds. Marines have the tremendous advantage of ranged weapons, and even if they didn't, it would only be a matter of time and endurance until they got into close combat and ripped the Gaang limb from limb.

Like I said, I know nothing about Inuyasha, but unless they have powers that can defend against giant flamethrowers, gobs of superheated plasma, tank-killing lasers and melta beams, fully-automatic armour-piercing RPGs in pistol, assault rifle and support weapon sizes, and super bazookas, they're dead. Unless they also have powers that can instantly kill a genetic superman wearing a tank. If so... call in the Adeptus Custodes.

*clears throat*

While I agree with you *in principle* about how the Avatar Kids (detest that term, Gaang) would lose to a squad of Marines, I do not agree with your gross exaggerations and one-sided viewpoint. The Avatar kids, while still human (and therefore destined to lose) are not in any way as helpless as you make them.

Aang is the freaking Avatar. He's a God-Surrogate. The experience of thousands of previous reincarnations are not for nothing. And while Toph may not be able to physically kill a marine with rock bending, she can most certainly use her abilities to create obstacles and control the battlefield.

Yes, the Avatar kids are still going to lose. But they're going to lose because the Marines are objectively better as seen through fluff and logic, not because Marines are God-Beings that cannot lose, ever.

A clear example of this is going to be shown in the next paragraph.

Let's introduce Inuyasha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InuYasha_%28character%29).

Let's see...



InuYasha's yōkai blood gives him superhuman strength. No upper limit has yet been shown in the canon, but he is at least strong enough to easily lift a boulder with a diameter greater than the height of his body over his head with one hand, and then run vast lengths with it. Such a boulder would weigh perhaps eleven tons. He is strong enough to punch through solid steel with his bare hands.
InuYasha's speed has been shown to easily exceed that of a normal horse; ... Due to the speed he can accumulate in his runs, added with his incredible strength, he is able to cross great distances with a single jump. Altogether, this creates the illusion that he is flying every time he leaps ... and reach the top of tall cliffs with a single leap as well.
InuYasha's stamina likewise far exceeds human standards... He is shown to be able to run vast distances at extreme speeds with minimal effort, and is often seen complaining about how his comparatively weaker human companions always slow him down by needing to rest so much every day. He is also able to endure a great deal of physical pain, as was once demonstrated ...when he continued to fight even after being impaled in the stomach.
InuYasha's physique is capable of taking a lot of damage, more than the average human, or even most yōkai. He appears unaffected by severe blunt force trauma, able to withstand a direct blow from a wooden log that broke on contact, and unfazed by the tremendous impact of being thrown hard enough to shatter solid rock. He also possesses tremendous resistance to sharp weapons, able to withstand attacks that slice through trees. While he can be injured by more powerful yōkai and holy weapons, he appears invulnerable to most human ones, able to catch normal arrows out of the air and break steel swords with his bare hands.
Even without his fire-rat robe, he has shown the ability to withstand direct contact with fire and tremendous heat, as well as corrosive substances like acid. When injured, he heals far more rapidly than a human, so much so that attacks powerful enough to severely injure him are rarely fatal, as they would be to humans, if they sustained an equivalent injury. For example, he recovered quickly from numerous serious attacks, including a large fist-sized hole punched through his gut. Similarly, it seems that his internal physiology is probably significantly different from a normal human's, considering that he has been able to get up and fight despite having been impaled in places that should have resulted in his spine being severed, heart shredded and lungs destroyed had he been built anything like a human - occasionally all at the same time.
His senses of hearing and smell are quite likely his most powerful — he is shown to be able to hear what people are whispering from great distances...his sense of smell is shown to be extremely sensitive - he can smell hints of blood from kilometres away and can detect the presence of people by smell long before they can be seen.


And this is before factoring in his Soul-Devouring Artifact Sword, Sacred Jewel Shards and Protective Cloak.

Say what you will, I think this speaks for itself.

[LBO]

I do not agree with your gross exaggerations and one-sided viewpoint.
Er, gross exaggerations where exactly? The six hundred benders thing was what we humans call a "joke".

One-sided viewpoint... did you even read my post before you leapt for the flamer? I didn't just say "MARINES WIN", I said why. Given the fluff of both worlds, and discounting the Avatar state (which is so far very poorly defined, which Aang is extremely reluctant to use and which, since he can die in it, I doubt is lascannon-proof), the only chance the Gaang have is to try and deflect the storm of bolter rounds with air/earthbending, knock over/cage the Marines with earthbending and run away while they're smashing the rock up. Nothing I've seen in all of Avatar would be enough to kill a Marine before it killed you.

...Of course, if they survive the first volley and hold the Marines down long enough for Katara to do a bloodraep, then Avatar does win. Hadn't thought of that.



*snip*
So Inuyasha wins. I said I didn't know anything about the anime and put some requirements of what they'd need to beat the Marines. Evidently they meet them.

[Oslecamo]

They're better then the Emperor?

No, but the emperor is even more badass than that.

His mere presence is enough to make normal mens cower in awe whitout him really trying.

He fighted Horus in hand to hand combat and after geting his own chest split open and on the verge of death(since he refused to attack to don't hurt his dear son who he tought was just passing by a teenager crisis), he unleashed a psychic attack so powerfull that Horus was literally erased from existence, soul and everything, plus sending the Chaos gods who had possessed Horus running away like chickens.

Anyway I say the avatar crew are the big losers here. Innuyasha eats fire for breackfast, has really hard skin, and can regenerate pretty fast, plus being able to tear apart pretty much anything. Miroku has the handy dandy long range black hole attack, wich is so damn powerfull the villains need an ex machina plot power to counter it. The space marines...Well, we all know the space marines. They will simply shoot down the Avatar crew from far away, and then shoot down everybody from the Innuyasha group except the main protagonist.

The big question is, can Innuyasha resist/regenerate several bolter and plasma shots time enough to get near the space marines and make them into ribons?

[Mr. Scaly]

Inuyasha does have a knack for dodging hailstorm type attacks.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Er, gross exaggerations where exactly? The six hundred benders thing was what we humans call a "joke".

One-sided viewpoint... did you even read my post before you leapt for the flamer? I didn't just say "MARINES WIN", I said why. Given the fluff of both worlds, and discounting the Avatar state (which is so far very poorly defined, which Aang is extremely reluctant to use and which, since he can die in it, I doubt is lascannon-proof), the only chance the Gaang have is to try and deflect the storm of bolter rounds with air/earthbending, knock over/cage the Marines with earthbending and run away while they're smashing the rock up. Nothing I've seen in all of Avatar would be enough to kill a Marine before it killed you.

...Of course, if they survive the first volley and hold the Marines down long enough for Katara to do a bloodraep, then Avatar does win. Hadn't thought of that.



So Inuyasha wins. I said I didn't know anything about the anime and put some requirements of what they'd need to beat the Marines. Evidently they meet them.

Y'know, I think acid spit to the face or a rocket to the gut would be enough to knock any of the Inuyasha group down.

And we're not factoring in the Sergeant with the power sword and plasma pistol, or vortex grenades. If we go by the Shounen rules, Inuyasha goes toe to toe with the Sergeant and gets beaten more than a red headed stepchild.

[LBO]

Y'know, I think acid spit to the face or a rocket to the gut would be enough to knock any of the Inuyasha group down.

And we're not factoring in the Sergeant with the power sword and plasma pistol, or vortex grenades. If we go by the Shounen rules, Inuyasha goes toe to toe with the Sergeant and gets beaten more than a red headed stepchild.
Confession time: I didn't even read any of that. I just saw that it took up more than a page, caught "Soul-Devouring Artifact Sword" out of the corner of my eye and guessed he was just another stupid-overpowered DBZ-esque shounen mary sue character. You know, the kind that people like to hold up when telling me off about "saying your favourite characters are beings of godlike power is bad". Especially when I'm doing nothing of the sort.

Since I'd already admitted I know nothing about Inuyasha, simplest just to concede; the point of that post was to make the flaming idiot pull out his paladin class features and actually read the post. Though man, "soul-devouring artifact sword"? How terrifying. Sounds almost like oh, I don't know, the sort of gear Marines have to face practically on a day to day basis.

I don't much care for vortex grenades. The one 2nd edition wtfpwn special item they should have brought back is the displacer field. Man, that thing was broken.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Confession time: Neither did I. I've seen Inuyasha, and it's on the low side of the shounen power scale. On the very low side. Not at all on DBZ style, or something.

Really, we should make a rule: Unless the contender is on at least Disgaea level power, it loses. Full stop. The WH40K just is strong like that.

Really, some people just don't seem to get that "Throw hundreds of .50 cal bullets at you" means you die unless your skin is adamantium tough.

[LBO]

Actually, we had one of those not long ago. People kind of like to forget it, because it was basically all the most annoying quibbles of every 40k vs something thread rolled into one big nerdrage abomination. I sort of liked the main point (before it got lost in the STAR WARS FTL IS BETTER/OUR PSYKERS ARE DIFFERENT) that 40k is everything turned up way beyond eleven and so insanely overpowered that their mooks can take most series' Physical Gods. Comparing stuff to 40k is like comparing 40k to TTGL, because nothing can beat TTGL. (Except the Custodes.)

[tyckspoon]

Really, some people just don't seem to get that "Throw hundreds of .50 cal bullets at you" means you die unless your skin is adamantium tough.

Or you have a Portable Hole of Devouring that can safely absorb everything except mystical packets of poison seemingly created specifically for the purpose of disabling that ability because it could be used to get out of every problem fight ever. Miroku is basically unbreakable, movable and aimable cover. And if you get close enough he's also a highly-effective killer.

[Azerian Kelimon]

One Vortex Grenade or rocket goes above him, shoot it. If he doesn't move the blackhole up, he dies because he's caught in the explosion, if he does, he dies because of the barrage of bolter ammo continuously thrown at him.

Really, that power is SERIOUSLY overrated. For an example, of how lame it is, Cyclops the X man can just use his trigonometric sense and hit him with an enormously strong concussive blast to the head through various ricochets, killing him. Or one explosion fries his brain and he is no longer an issue.

PS: The above example doesn't intend to express that Cyclops is lame. quite the contrary, he is one of the coolest X men.

[LBO]

Chucking a vortex grenade into a vortex.

Holy hell, that is not going to end well.

(And wait. How many of these black hole things can he project? Because attacking from two different angles can't be that hard, can it...?)

[Azerian Kelimon]

He only has one, in one hand, and it's pretty small. As said, that power is overrated, since only an idiot "Head on, up close and personal" fighter has a problem with it.

[SurlySeraph]

Everyone seems to be overlooking the fact that Inuyasha's sword shoots waves of diamonds. Pointed diamonds. Like a one-man rifle line. Except with diamonds instead of bullets.

[Azerian Kelimon]

So? Wiki up the durability of marine armor, and the toughness of marines themselves.

One plasma shot or power sword swing and Inuyasha is down. Using only the RAW'ed equipment of this thread.

[warty goblin]

Confession time: Neither did I. I've seen Inuyasha, and it's on the low side of the shounen power scale. On the very low side. Not at all on DBZ style, or something.

Really, we should make a rule: Unless the contender is on at least Disgaea level power, it loses. Full stop. The WH40K just is strong like that.

Really, some people just don't seem to get that "Throw hundreds of .50 cal bullets at you" means you die unless your skin is adamantium tough.

Yes please, I enjoy WH40K as much as the next heretic, but some of these are getting a little weird.

And if your skin is adamantium, they pull out the flamers and suffocate you.

Also, as noted on the black hole shield thingy, we are talking Space Marines here, super-human killing machines with literally hundreds of years experience in high powered squad level combat. I'm sure after a half dozen bolter rounds get sucked down they'll come up with the idea of flanking, assuming they don't try it to begin with.

[LBO]

He only has one, in one hand, and it's pretty small. As said, that power is overrated, since only an idiot "Head on, up close and personal" fighter has a problem with it.
Doesn't sound much good against mass-reactive exploding rounds, no. Just aim over his shoulder, boom.


Everyone seems to be overlooking the fact that Inuyasha's sword shoots waves of diamonds. Pointed diamonds. Like a one-man rifle line. Except with diamonds instead of bullets.
40k has those. They're called shuriken catapults, and they don't work that well on Marines either.

My power level goes: Everything < 40k < TA < TTGL < Custodes < a magic hand that shoots bees, though since I steer cleer of some of the more insane stuff it's clearly far from complete. Shounen series and western superhero comics off to one side, because they tend to actually take themselves seriously and pretend to be consistent while still being full of the the stupidest "strong-as-he-needs-to-be" crap.

[warty goblin]

Interesting note, but diamonds would make very poor bullets. Sure they are hard, but they are not tough, and can be shattered by relatively minor impacts- like say being shot into a Space Marine's armor for example. Now of course this has the advantage of transfering a lot of the kinetic energy of the projectile into the target (minus that which is wasted in shattering the projectile), but would give it very poor armor penetration due to the diamond's tendancy to shatter. This is also particularly true of a pointed diamond, which would tend to be the shape one wants for a projectile.

Given the sorts of impacts Space Marines can take, I'd say that the kinetic transfer is pretty irrelevant for purposes of actually hurting them, and since the diamond projectiles will simply splinter off of their bonded ceremite armor, I'm not seeing the ability to shoot jewelry as particularly dangerous to them. I'd take the .75 cal mass reactive high explosve gun any day.

[Mr. Scaly]

I think the wind tunnel power is being underestimated here.

1) firing a rocket over Miroku's shoulder won't work because it will head toward him and be pulled into the blackhole by its pull.

2) anything heading in vaguely the direction it's pointed gets sucked in. It's a cone effect, not a straight line.

3) after the first half dozen shots one of two things will happen. A) their fancy weapons will go flying out of their hands into oblivion. B) their feet get yanked off the ground, sending them into oblivion.

And before anyone throws a hissy fit about me downgrading the strength of warhammer...don't because I'm not. But just because a universe isn't as strong as another it doesn't mean that elements in one can't destroy elements in another. Could these space marines kill off Silver Age Superman for example? Or Alucard? Or Juggernaught? All ridiculously powerful beings from universes that warhammer would tear to pieces. So come on, this is a debate thread. Keep an open mind.

[Xefas]

1) firing a rocket over Miroku's shoulder won't work because it will head toward him and be pulled into the blackhole by its pull.

2) anything heading in vaguely the direction it's pointed gets sucked in. It's a cone effect, not a straight line.

3) after the first half dozen shots one of two things will happen. A) their fancy weapons will go flying out of their hands into oblivion. B) their feet get yanked off the ground, sending them into oblivion.

The major point for me, in favor of the Space Marines, is that they outnumber the Inuyasha group quite a bit. When you factor in that Sango and Kagome are entirely useless in this fight, it's 6 against 2 (Miroku and Inuyasha).

Given that 1) A standard bolter probably has a longer range than Miroku's wind tunnel, and 2) Space Marines are intelligent enough to attack from at least two directions, given that they outnumber the enemy: Miroku cannot possibly defend himself adequately. The Wind Tunnel only goes one way, and if he turns it around, he's getting shot from the other direction.

Yes, Inuyasha does factor into this a bit, but he can't be in six places at once all by himself, and once Miroku is down, it's only a matter of waiting for Inuyasha to attack someone so he can get nailed from behind by all the other Marines.

[warty goblin]

I think the wind tunnel power is being underestimated here.

1) firing a rocket over Miroku's shoulder won't work because it will head toward him and be pulled into the blackhole by its pull.

2) anything heading in vaguely the direction it's pointed gets sucked in. It's a cone effect, not a straight line.

3) after the first half dozen shots one of two things will happen. A) their fancy weapons will go flying out of their hands into oblivion. B) their feet get yanked off the ground, sending them into oblivion.

And before anyone throws a hissy fit about me downgrading the strength of warhammer...don't because I'm not. But just because a universe isn't as strong as another it doesn't mean that elements in one can't destroy elements in another. Could these space marines kill off Silver Age Superman for example? Or Alucard? Or Juggernaught? All ridiculously powerful beings from universes that warhammer would tear to pieces. So come on, this is a debate thread. Keep an open mind.

1) Flanking. It can be a cone all day, but it still only faces one direction, all you need to do is to fill the target with explosives from another, while forcing the weilder to keep it pointed in one direction by a steady layer of suppressing fire. Reading the wikipedia article however it doesn't sound exactly cone-like, but more spherical in shape, which simply means that some clever ballistics are needed to get your projectile over the void and into the target on the other side. As an example one could fire a projectile up over the target, allowing for the effect of the void to pull it back down towards the target, while the velocity gained from being pulled forward by the void (not to mention it's own propulsion) would allow it to continue past the void before striking the target or detonating (yay for mass reactive rounds!). Essentially a gravitational slingshot if you will, and if done right the projectile could actually be travelling faster on the other side.

And before anybody tries to say that this would be hugely difficult, it really wouldn't be. Bullets travel very fast, and hence the force of the black hole has less time to alter their course. It gets even worse with bolters though, because the rounds are self-propelled and fired at a bit of an angle should be able to pass over the black hole pretty much unaffected by it. With a couple hundred years of practice blowing stuff up with a bolter, it seems well within a Space Marine's capability.

As to getting sucked into the hole, remember these are Space Marines, and they are probably not going to engage a bunch of dudes armed primarily with melee weapons in close combat, since they've got all of these nifty guns...and certainly not after he starts sucking stuff up into an extradimensional rift, that being the sort of thing I'd imagine Space Marines avoid rather on principle.

Either that or they fall back then break out the land mines...

[Poison_Fish]

I think 40k fanboys is a pretty cool guy, eh overstates the fluff and doesn't afraid of anything.

Seriously, you all overpower space marines gadgetry way to much. And I hate Inu Yasha, but your ignoring several points about him not going down to bolter fire all that easily. Considering he's been hit with far more powerful and keeps on trucking, which would force the marines to start using other weaponry. Short of a vortex grenade, which he could most likely avoid, there isn't much that a couple of marines will carry that can stop him. Plasma shots included

Also, there aren't 6 space marines, remember? There are 4 according to this thread, one sarge (Plasma pistol and Power weapon, waste of points to dump in a sarge if you ask me, I'd rather get a las-cannon or an extra marine) + 3 others. But let's be realistic here, they aren't all going to be walking around with plasma rifles. Chances are you'll have two with bolters, one with a special weapon, and the sarge. Depending on if this is a close up or long range squad does help the fight a bit more. Missile launcher would be useless thanks to the wind tunnel. Plasma rifle can put some hurt on Yasha and vaporize the other characters, but it's a limited weapon. Lascannon's, while powerful, make an obvious target. Heavy bolters the same, and I doubt they could do much to the annoying demon boy.

I actually think your best bet is with a melta. But when going up against annoying shonen leads, chances are slim for the marines. But then, this is what you have demon hunters for.

What really determines this, IMO, is who gets the jump on who. They are all 50 feet away from each other. I imagine 50 feet is not much of a task for Inu-Yasha to cover quickly, and long range weaponry will have less use in these close quarters, so drop out las cannons and missile launchers.

To sum it up, the fight comes down to one Mary Sue named protagonist to 4 Mary Sue grunts.

[Rutee]

A Mary Sue named and a Plot Device. The Wind Tunnel /can/ actually suck marines in you know, since they don't have the Plot Bugs that stop it.

[Oslecamo]

This is a space marines squad. Like all WH40K squads, if they get separated they can't attack untill the recoup. The sarge is there for a reason, and it is to give orders.

To flanck Miroky you would need two squads.

And even if you argue that the SM try to flanck Miroku, he's not stupid enough to let himself get flancked. He'll just back off while keeping the SM under the black hole threat. If anything, Miroku can surely move faster than the SM, with his uber jumps.

Also he's not alone. While the SM divide, Innuyahsa will have an easier time ganking up on the SM. He's bloody fast, and even if the SM are shooting hundreds a rounds per minute(wich they aren't, that would be heavy bolters fire rate), they will have an hard time hiting something so fast.

Plasma bolts and swords don't scare him. Because unlike the DBZ crew, Innuyahsa can get his heart impaled in a blade and keep going. So geting his internal organs fried won't hurt him too much.

Plus, Innuyahsa can also attack at range. Claws of blood or something like that was the name of the attack, and it pretty much rips off anything but super magic swords.

It comes down to a battle of wits to see who makes the first mistake.

[warty goblin]

Quick question, does the black hole thingy suck in air at all?

Because if it doesn't, then the guy's toast (literally). Plasma guns, as far as I can tell pretty much just shoot really hot (charged) air, and if air isn't sucked in, the plasma bolt will just go right on past the void unaffected.

Even if it does work on plasma, it really won't have a noticible influence on a lascannon beam (it takes a truly disgusting amount of gravity to alter a laser beam a significant amount after all), and between even a high powered human and a beam of coherent light used to demolish disgustingly well armored tanks I know which my money's on.

[Rutee]

Oh please. "It can blow up tanks, so it's better then a human!" "What if the human can disable tanks?"

For the love of God, WH40k fanboyism is disgusting. I don't even know Avatar, and hate Inuyasha, and I can manage to not completely underrate these guys.

[Ubiq]

Far as the discussion of Psykers go, after Alpha, the scale starts over again with Alpha-Plus, Beta-Plus, and so on. Reputedly, there was at least one Psyker that was a Gamma-Plus that was implied to not be the God-Emperor (which probably means that it was Malcador the Sigilite). So the God-Emperor is at least a Gamma-Plus and probably higher.



For the love of God, WH40k fanboyism is disgusting. I don't even know Avatar, and hate Inuyasha, and I can manage to not completely underrate these guys.

Space Marines are ridiculously durable though, with an emphasis on the ridiculous; apparently one of them survived being stepped on by a Titan in one source.

[Rutee]

Heroes are also ridiculously durable. Why do you think SMs being super durable compared to normal human beings isn't something I'm terribly impressed by?

[LBO]

Space Marines are ridiculously durable though, with an emphasis on the ridiculous; apparently one of them survived being stepped on by a Titan in one source.
The Throne turned Malcador to dust, too. Ouch.

It was a Terminator that survived the stamping thing, and it was a Space Wolf Terminator at that.

The possibilities of using earthbending to just bury your enemies is an interesting one, though. I don't think anyone has a real counter to that.

I mean, if you did it to Marines it still wouldn't kill them, they'd just use their Sus-An membranes and snooze forever, but... okay, okay, no more fanboying...

[Ubiq]

Heroes are also ridiculously durable. Why do you think SMs being super durable compared to normal human beings isn't something I'm terribly impressed by?

Outside of Inu-Yasha though, none of the characters listed in the premise have ever really shown that much in the way of superhuman durability and even Inu-Yasha can be injured by an arrow.

Of the Gaang, two of them are simply normal people without any abilities beyond weapon proficiency (which requires getting within close range of the Space Marine no less) and fairly high dexterity while the same applies to one of the Inu-Yasha group. Meanwhile, Shippo doesn't seem to have much in the way of offensive firepower.

I don't think that the Space Marines are invincible in this scenario or any other, but it should be noted that better than half of the contestants simply don't have a way to injure any of the Marines (at least, any way that doesn't require that they engage in hand-to-hand combat with them) while even the smallest weapon a SM is carrying will pretty much shred any of their opponents.

It largely comes down to who gets off the first shot in any contest. In that regard, the Gaang probably fares better against the Marines than Inu-Yasha and his colleagues if only because they don't have anybody in there that's going to be interpreted as a mutant/filthy Xeno from the start.

[warty goblin]

Oh please. "It can blow up tanks, so it's better then a human!" "What if the human can disable tanks?"

For the love of God, WH40k fanboyism is disgusting. I don't even know Avatar, and hate Inuyasha, and I can manage to not completely underrate these guys.

I really fail to see what's fanboyish about my point. The Wind Tunnel thingy is described as sucking things towards it. Given that it was also described as being black-hole like, I went out on a limb and guessed that it did so in a manner similar to gravitational attraction - the force varies as the inverse square of the distance. If this is the case, then all of my ballistics work, and if not they may no longer work right, depending on the actual effect of the Wind Tunnell. That's logic based on the effects as described to me, not fanboyism. Pointing out that Space Marines had lots of combat training is canon fact, again not fanboyism.

Similarly with the point about the lascannon. If in fact the Wind Tunnell attracts things in a manner roughly analagous to gravity, then lightspeed weapons like lascannons would not suffer significint bending due to the Wind Tunnell. Again with the logic. That being the case it should be relatively easy to score a hit on Miroku around the Wind Tunnell, since it doesn't sound like the actual rift occupies that much volume.
Now Miroku may indeed by able to take a hit from anti-tank weaponry, I don't know. His Wikipedia entry doesn't say anything about supernatural toughness however, and in fact specifically lists him as a human under a curse. I feel that it's pretty logical and sensible to conclude that a weapon capable of slagging heavy armor can do the same thing to a human being. Since Miroku is described as human, I don't see why he suddenly and inexplicably becomes inhumanly tough and capable of withstanding that sort of thing. Even if he can disable tanks, that says nothing about being able to survive weapons which do the same thing. Guys with RPGs can disable and destroy tanks after all, but this in no way suddenly grants them immunity to 105mm smoothbore cannons or other RPGs for that matter. In short the amount of damage he can dish out says exactly squat about his capability to take damage.


Defense and offense, there's a difference.

[Oslecamo]

Outside of Inu-Yasha though, none of the characters listed in the premise have ever really shown that much in the way of superhuman durability and even Inu-Yasha can be injured by an arrow.

Of the Gaang, two of them are simply normal people without any abilities beyond weapon proficiency (which requires getting within close range of the Space Marine no less) and fairly high dexterity while the same applies to one of the Inu-Yasha group. Meanwhile, Shippo doesn't seem to have much in the way of offensive firepower.

If by injured by an arrow you mean injured by a +5 blessed holy brilliant demon slaying arrow shot by the legendary priestess reincarnated who everything she touches becomes a super anti demon weapon, then yes, Innuyasha can be hurt by arrows.

And shippo is pretty good at illusions. There is no Librarian around to protect the space marines from psychic attacks, and when they see a giant demon appear from nowhere they surely will focus the fire on it and not the Innuyasha crew.

Plus blackhole and claws of blood are both ranged attacks. And the giant boomerang can cut trough demon skin like butter. I'm pretty sure it can dent SM armor.

Miroku may not be very durable, but he surely is at least as agile as Innuyasha, wich means he has a good chance to jump from cover to cover to close in with the SM and unleash black hole power.

[Poison_Fish]

And again, it comes down to who can get the shot off first. A guy walking around with a las cannon is an obvious target, and they are within 50 feet. It's not like the las cannon guy is going to be able to get his shot off before anyone else. I'd actually say by the time our demon boy is in melee with them is at the point that he may be able to fire that thing. 50 feet is not a lot of ground for Inu-Yasha to cover. For normal humans it is.

[Twin2]

For the love of God, WH40k fanboyism is disgusting. I don't even know Avatar, and hate Inuyasha, and I can manage to not completely underrate these guys.

I wouldn't say it's without merit. From what I understand from all three sources I'd say it comes down to durability. Aang and his friends are quite capable fighters, but in the end are no more superhuman in terms of survivability then anyone else (i.e. one good hit should do the trick), Inuyasha is quite survivable, quite hilariously stupid, but one durable creature none the less. Space Marines are pretty much bred to fight otherworldly horrors as a day job, and that's pretty much all I know about them.

The only one I'd say has a good chance is Inuyasha, and that's just him, none of his friends. It just seems that in terms of all three settings space marines have the one that can be most adequately described as "HOLY **** RUNRUNRUNRUNRUN" which being tailored to survive there makes for some seriously tough guys.

[Azerian Kelimon]

And then we have Inuyasha. The matter is simple: We take a NORMAL ultramarine and compare the worst one of them has ever taken and still has been left standing, and compare that to the worst Inuyasha has taken while still being able to fight.

For some reason, I feel this is going to favor the Ultramarine.

Really, I'm no 40K fanboy, but after having to use every possible cheese short of reality benders to defend the FR against the IoM, I've realized the power of the 40K universe. It's simply respecting your foe and knowing it's capabilities.

And, yanno, If Inuyasha goes melee, a SM can make him swallow a Vortex Grenade and die honorably for the Emperor. The Sarge, meanwhile, will just kick the crap out of him with his Power Sword or Plasma Pistol.

[Seraph]

Oh please. "It can blow up tanks, so it's better then a human!" "What if the human can disable tanks?"

For the love of God, WH40k fanboyism is disgusting. I don't even know Avatar, and hate Inuyasha, and I can manage to not completely underrate these guys.

It's mainly 'cause people forget that 40k was meant as satire.

[LBO]

It's mainly 'cause people forget that 40k was meant as satire.
Including the people running the show.

[Solo]

Oh please. "It can blow up tanks, so it's better then a human!" "What if the human can disable tanks?"

For the love of God, WH40k fanboyism is disgusting. I don't even know Avatar, and hate Inuyasha, and I can manage to not completely underrate these guys.

So why are you here?

[Mr. Scaly]

WG, that's a good point but the wind tunnel can rip rocks from the ground (I think, it's been a while since I watched the show.) If that were true he'd get brained from behind by a flying boulder every time he uncovers his palm. And besides, physics doesn't keep marines from losing their hold of their weapons or being dragged right off their feet after a couple seconds.

[warty goblin]

WG, that's a good point but the wind tunnel can rip rocks from the ground (I think, it's been a while since I watched the show.) If that were true he'd get brained from behind by a flying boulder every time he uncovers his palm. And besides, physics doesn't keep marines from losing their hold of their weapons or being dragged right off their feet after a couple seconds.

I'm not 100% sure what you are getting at with the first two sentences, so I'll leave them for the time being.

No, physics doesn't stop the Marines from losing their weapons or getting sucked into the rift. Time however would have very little to do with it, since (continuing to assume similarity to gravity) gravity propagates itself at lightspeed or so, so for all intents and purposes at this scale the effect is instantanious. Unless the attraction increases with time (which it very well could, I don't know) unless it's enough to knock the Marines over at once it should be relatively simple to brace against.

In order to drag the Space Marines into the rift, their attraction to the rift needs to be greater than the force of static friction between them and the ground (otherwise they won't move), assuming a point model. Adding height gets us into things like torques which are a pain in the ass, and probably wouldn't make that much of a difference anyways. Friction = KN(sin(theta)), where K is a constant that depends on the two surfaces involved, N is the normal force vector, and theta is the angle between the surface and the normal force. Assuming flat ground that's just KN because sin(90) = 1. N is, in this case equal to the force of gravity, or 9.8m/s^s*(mass of Marine). Marines are, particularly in their armor, really quite heavy and likely to be wearing boots with good traction, meaning a high coefficient of friction, so that they will likely be quite difficult to drag around.

Adding in things like height we'd have to ask such fascinating and nitpicky questions as "Is the Rift above or below the Space Marine's center of mass?" and "What is the air resistance of a Space Marine?" not to mention "Could a Space Marine use the recoil of their weaponry to keep from being drug into the Rift?"

As to the weapons, I'd be rather disinclined to let anything go pulling my weaponry out of my hands, and if I was super humanly strong and wearing powered armor, I could make that rather difficult to do. Not neccesarily impossible, just not easy.

[Mr. Scaly]

I'm not 100% sure what you are getting at with the first two sentences, so I'll leave them for the time being.

No, physics doesn't stop the Marines from losing their weapons or getting sucked into the rift. Time however would have very little to do with it, since (continuing to assume similarity to gravity) gravity propagates itself at lightspeed or so, so for all intents and purposes at this scale the effect is instantanious. Unless the attraction increases with time (which it very well could, I don't know) unless it's enough to knock the Marines over at once it should be relatively simple to brace against.

In order to drag the Space Marines into the rift, their attraction to the rift needs to be greater than the force of static friction between them and the ground (otherwise they won't move), assuming a point model. Adding height gets us into things like torques which are a pain in the ass, and probably wouldn't make that much of a difference anyways. Friction = KN(sin(theta)), where K is a constant that depends on the two surfaces involved, N is the normal force vector, and theta is the angle between the surface and the normal force. Assuming flat ground that's just KN because sin(90) = 1. N is, in this case equal to the force of gravity, or 9.8m/s^s*(mass of Marine). Marines are, particularly in their armor, really quite heavy and likely to be wearing boots with good traction, meaning a high coefficient of friction, so that they will likely be quite difficult to drag around.

Adding in things like height we'd have to ask such fascinating and nitpicky questions as "Is the Rift above or below the Space Marine's center of mass?" and "What is the air resistance of a Space Marine?" not to mention "Could a Space Marine use the recoil of their weaponry to keep from being drug into the Rift?"

As to the weapons, I'd be rather disinclined to let anything go pulling my weaponry out of my hands, and if I was super humanly strong and wearing powered armor, I could make that rather difficult to do. Not neccesarily impossible, just not easy.

As to the first two sentences, I'll clarify.

You said earlier that the wind tunnel effect was circular, which meant that if someone fired a rocket to a point behind Miroku it would get sucked back and hit him. But in the show the pull of the curse is enough to rip rocks from the ground. Big ones too. If the effect was circular then rocks behind him would be torn up and strike him every time he uses the curse, but this does not happen.

As to the math part, I fully admit that I'm not good with math. But the description of the wind tunnel as a Black hole is a little misleading. The 'pull' effect isn't gravity, it's caused by magic and, as i said, is strong enough to rip loose static objects that are securely rooted to the ground. Like boulders and trees. He's also redirected energy attacks (barely) with it, but that's less useful here i suppose.

[Rutee]

So why are you here?

Why do you give a damn?


Including the people running the show.
Funny, the material I read was pretty clearly written with tongue thoroughly written in cheek.


I really fail to see what's fanboyish about my point. The Wind Tunnel thingy is described as sucking things towards it. Given that it was also described as being black-hole like, I went out on a limb and guessed that it did so in a manner similar to gravitational attraction - the force varies as the inverse square of the distance. If this is the case, then all of my ballistics work, and if not they may no longer work right, depending on the actual effect of the Wind Tunnell. That's logic based on the effects as described to me, not fanboyism. Pointing out that Space Marines had lots of combat training is canon fact, again not fanboyism.
"Lolz. Space Marine weaponry destroys tanks, so it's better" "At what point did 'Black Hole destroys tank' stop applying?"

Did you honestly not look over your own post?


Outside of Inu-Yasha though, none of the characters listed in the premise have ever really shown that much in the way of superhuman durability and even Inu-Yasha can be injured by an arrow.
I recall Inu-Yasha having been sealed by a spell carried by an arrow, but not injured by one. I know he's taken blasts that devastate the countryside (Wind Scar), though those tend to put him out of commission. I don't think you can say "Keeps fighting after being impaled, sometimes repeatedly" is less then superhuman durability, unless you have an odd definition of human.

[GoC]

Actually, we had one of those not long ago. People kind of like to forget it, because it was basically all the most annoying quibbles of every 40k vs something thread rolled into one big nerdrage abomination. I sort of liked the main point (before it got lost in the STAR WARS FTL IS BETTER/OUR PSYKERS ARE DIFFERENT) that 40k is everything turned up way beyond eleven and so insanely overpowered that their mooks can take most series' Physical Gods.
There are a few things that could do serious damage to 40K though:
1. DC and Marvel.
2. Starwars.
3. Master of Orion universe (not sure how many people have heard of it).

Some that definitely can't for all their apparant power:
1. DBZ universe.
2. Narutu.
3. D&D with a sane DM.

And a few that win easily:
1. Exhalted.
2. Star Trek using all the technology they are known to posses.
3. The Culture.
4. D&D with Emperor Tippy.


toughness of marines themselves.
Marine's are tough not as in bulletproof skin but as in "can have large holes torn in the and survive". This can be both better and worse than tough skin depending on the circumstances.


The Sarge, meanwhile, will just kick the crap out of him with his Power Sword or Plasma Pistol.
No, don't! Are you honestly telling my SMs have superspeed?

warty goblin: They would work well against shounen characters (fragment and rip to shreds) but due to the different kind of toughness the SMs have and the general weakness of bullets in eastern media (60m/s or so?) they aren't going to help much.

Rutee: There actually has been a surprising lack of WH 40K fanboyism in this thread.

The SMs have my vote so far but I don't yet know enough about Inuyaha.

[konfeta]

I would actually rank Inuyasha himself a newbie Daemon Prince. He successfully ripped apart a demon (who could pretty much move with your standard DBZ "turn into a bunch of lines and appear in another place" speed) with his bare hands while in his angry state. Plus some of his powers are right out of the Cool Stuff Chaos Lords Get When Pumped Up On Points page.

He would probably win against a Space Marine squad by himself if he treated them as very dangerous opponents from the get go. Your standard Space Marines are good, but they are not Daemon slaying good. That job is reserved for veterans, heroes, heavy/special equipment and specialized smurfs.

However, a Grey Knight squad or a Grey Knight Justicar would probably rip Inuyasha a new one with frightening ease.

[Twin2]

He would probably win against a Space Marine squad by himself if he treated them as very dangerous opponents from the get go.

Well there's a plus for the marines since inuyasha happens to be extremely arrogant/stupid when goaded.

[warty goblin]

"Lolz. Space Marine weaponry destroys tanks, so it's better" "At what point did 'Black Hole destroys tank' stop applying?"

Did you honestly not look over your own post?

No, I said that a weapon that slags a tank can also do the same to a human. Seems to me that this is a pretty hard point to contest, any weapon that capable of burning through 80mm of composite armor can certainly make a plenty big hole in any sort of human I've ever seen. I never denied that whatshisface can kill tanks (I might have said I don't know, once again there is a difference), merely that this has absolutely no bearing on his ability to survive anti-tank weaponry.

However, if we use your black hole model ('Black hole destroys tank') he wouldn't be able to destroy a tank, or even a cockroach. Since it's handheld, it can't have all that much mass and hence not all that much gravity in absolute terms but instead is just very dense (black holes, according to quantum theory, theoretically go all the way down to the Planck length, or 1.6 × 10−35 meters, a length literally 20 orders of magnitude smaller than a proton), and thus have, to put in mildly, very localized effects. I'm not sure how strong the person under discussion is, but let's say he's pretty built and can deadarm a 30kg black hole. A 30 kg black hole has an event horizon of something like 4.45x10-26 meters (assuming the formula I found holds up at these scales, it very well might not, since it uses a rather more Newtonian concept of black hole, but it's good enough). If you fired say 2cm away from the singularity the acceleration due to the gravity of our black hole would be .000005m/s^2. Earth, which people shoot off guns just fine around all the time, causes an acceleration due to gravity that's literally 195,020 times stronger than this.

Basically it's completely irrelevant, and, if you had tableware of incrediably density (say neutronum) that could pick it up you could eat it as a healthy snack that would literally pass right through you. Hell, even a 300kg black hole would only have an event horizon of 4.45x10^-25 meters, and still wouldn't actually destroy a tank. In fact it wouldn't even punch a hole in a tank, because it's still 10,000,000,000 times or so smaller than a proton, and thus would pass completely through said armored vehicle with at best very minimal effect. In order to actually have a radius of one meter, the black hole would need to have a mass of 1x10^27 kg or so, which is a thousand times the mass of the earth.

So if he does have a man portable black hole, I'd still go with the mass reactive high explove rocket-gun than the little singularity that couldn't. Hell, I'd go with the rusty butter knife. Or possibly a fingernail clipping. That, by the way still isn't fanboyism. That's physics and a bit of common sense.

Now will people kindly stop using the term black hole like it denotes something really uber powerful? I admit that the model I used previously was not particularly useful, but to my credit people did say he's got a black hole, so I used a black hole. Anyway I think given the above math and Mr. Scaly's very helpful description (thanks, I now get exactly what you are saying btw), that whatever he's got it's not a black hole, nor is the analogy particularly useful at this point.

[Solo]

Rutee: There actually has been a surprising lack of WH 40K fanboyism in this thread.


The devout servants of the great and immortal God-Emperor are busy reclaiming the Cadia gate, thank you very much.

[Fiery Diamond]

warty, read earlier posts- it's not an actual black hole powered by gravity, it's a magic curse. Size is irrelevant.

I don't know a lot about warhammer 40k, but based on what I've read here, I'd go with the "it depends who gets the jump on whom," with the odds in favor of Inuyasha. And let's not forget that Shippo has illusions to draw the SM fire away.

As much a fan as I am of Avatar, they don't stand a chance in any of these fights.

-Fiery Diamond

[Anteros]

There are a few things that could do serious damage to 40K though:
1. DC and Marvel.
2. Starwars.
3. Master of Orion universe (not sure how many people have heard of it).

Some that definitely can't for all their apparant power:
1. DBZ universe.
2. Narutu.
3. D&D with a sane DM.

And a few that win easily:
1. Exhalted.
2. Star Trek using all the technology they are known to posses.
3. The Culture.
4. D&D with Emperor Tippy.


Marine's are tough not as in bulletproof skin but as in "can have large holes torn in the and survive". This can be both better and worse than tough skin depending on the circumstances.


No, don't! Are you honestly telling my SMs have superspeed?

warty goblin: They would work well against shounen characters (fragment and rip to shreds) but due to the different kind of toughness the SMs have and the general weakness of bullets in eastern media (60m/s or so?) they aren't going to help much.

Rutee: There actually has been a surprising lack of WH 40K fanboyism in this thread.

The SMs have my vote so far but I don't yet know enough about Inuyaha.

Wait, how could 40k beat DBZ? Is that a thread somewhere? Cause I want to read it if so. If not, then please explain.

[Solo]

The MBaIGEoM, PbUHN, GtHoT* would help 40k, for starters. The Chaos Gods might posess DBZ guys and that wouldn't be pretty either. Vegeta, for one, has been shown to be vulnerable to posession by manevolent forces. (Over 9000, in fact)

*The Most Benificient and Immortal God-Emperor of Manking, Praise be Upon His Name, Glory to Him on Terra

[Cybren]

I don't really think you can compare DBZ to 40k, and any attempts to say "40k would win" is nonsensical fanboy confirmation bias. (as all of these discussions are).


I mean, the second major story arc has them defeat a villain who can, under his own power, blow up planets. (not to mention Vegeta attempted to destroy earth, and in the anime blew up that one bug planet)

[Anteros]

The MBaIGEoM, PbUHN, GtHoT* would help 40k, for starters. The Chaos Gods might posess DBZ guys and that wouldn't be pretty either. Vegeta, for one, has been shown to be vulnerable to posession by manevolent forces. (Over 9000, in fact)

*The Most Benificient and Immortal God-Emperor of Manking, Praise be Upon His Name, Glory to Him on Terra

The only time Vegeta was "possessed" was when he chose to follow orders so he could have an excuse to fight Goku. He very specifically refused all others given to him, laughing that no being could ever bend him to their will. Then after he accomplished his goal he turned on his "master" And this was against a being who had the ability to bend gods to his will. That's not really a great vulnerability.

[Rutee]

To make the important elaboration;

Second story arc villain can destroy the planet.
Third Story Big Bad was roughly 1k times more powerful. This is not exaggeration.


Physics
Oh. Em. Eff. Gee. What the hell!? You accept a lack of physics in your pet universe, but then insist on applying them elsewhere!? Stop using physics; It can not possibly provide an accurate estimation /when the writers don't give a damn/.

Edit:
Wait.. he wasn't possessed? I disbelieve, but I don't have the wherewithal to argue it. It's a series I saw years ago and really don't care about, it just has stupidly powerful characters.

[Tengu]

This thread is made of lose. Gaang wins because when everything else stops applying (and judging from all the arguments, it stopped ages ago), only Rule of Cool remains, and they're much cooler than the other contestants.

[tyckspoon]

Oh, hey. This is gonna be our official derailing, huh? Trying to compare DB(Z) and 40k by comparing only the top-level characters is a futile exercise, I think; I hope we can take it as axiomatic that nothing in 40k can take on Goku head to head, but in converse a high-level psyker could twist Goku's brain into a pretzel. The thing is neither of them can be in more than one place at a time, and there's only one of them (yes, there is more than one powerful psyker. There are also multiple DBZ characters that most of 40k cannot hope to touch- anybody who has achieved Supersaiyan and anybody who can fight against said SSJ characters, for starters.) If we want to compare universes and not just a limited pick of the very uppermost rank, we should go ahead and compare universes..

40k: Massive... everything. Tons of warm bodies to throw into the fray. Highly-advanced aliens. Gribbly horrors from beyond reality and known space.

DBZ: Trainable superpowered martial artists from just about everywhere. Artificial life forms capable of matching or exceeding said martial artists. Weird time and/or space manipulating training methods capable of producing an effective superpowered martial artist very rapidly. Instances of Supertech, although almost always used to make the SMAs look more impressive.

Honestly, on the universal scale, I'm betting on DBZ. There is an impressive difference in the quality of the basic 'troop' each universe will provide. On one side, going through boot camp gets you a dude with a gun and enough fear of his Commissar to not run away. On the other, basic training gets you an inhumanly fast, tough, and strong hand to hand combatant. And if the trainer is any good or rapid-advancement methods are being employed, those basic troops can also fly and throw ki blasts. And then you add in artificial or controlled life- put some Android numbers and some Saibamen in the ranks (I'm hoping nobody is insane enough to try Cell again). And whatever aliens can be acquired. Namek and Saiyan fighters start higher than most humans can reasonably be expected to reach, and then there's all the weird one-off beings like the Ginyu Force and most of Freeza's henchthings.

Ultimately you don't win a massive fight with the topmost 1%. They make the difference where they're present, but the vast majority of battles are going to be where they aren't. Which is where the individual superiority of even a lower-level DBZ fighter comes into play, combined with the ease of generating such a fighter.

[LBO]

Physics are just one set of arbitrary rules-that-don't-really-apply-in-any-of-these-places that people use in vs threads because they're ever so slightly less subjective than Rule Of Cool in these situations. Going by another set of arbitrary rules, Avatar beats 40k because those kids have the power of friendship and I want to see the next damn episode already. Then 40k beats Inuyasha because they have faces that look like faces and slightly less bloody stupid names. Then TTGL beats DBZ and Avatar's POWAHZ COMBINED by squishing their galaxies into marbles and playing weird games with them, and in the end it just comes down to a final, apocalyptic showdown between Chuck Norris and the Custodes, which Chuck Norris wins because of his greater mass-market appeal and iron hard abs. And THEN, Sam Vimes shows up.

</thread, now let it die>

PS: Rutee, then you should have read a bit more than Ciaphas Cain and material dated pre-1995.

[Tengu]

And THEN, Sam Vimes shows up.


Amen to that. Just like bishonen-ness is measured in Raidens (and one Raiden, just like one Ampere, is a lot - if you have around 0.75 Raiden, it means that already a lot of people mistake you for a woman oftenly), badassness is measured in Vimeses. And one Vimes is, once again, a lot.

[Anteros]

Oh, hey. This is gonna be our official derailing, huh? Trying to compare DB(Z) and 40k by comparing only the top-level characters is a futile exercise, I think; I hope we can take it as axiomatic that nothing in 40k can take on Goku head to head, but in converse a high-level psyker could twist Goku's brain into a pretzel. The thing is neither of them can be in more than one place at a time, and there's only one of them (yes, there is more than one powerful psyker. There are also multiple DBZ characters that most of 40k cannot hope to touch- anybody who has achieved Supersaiyan and anybody who can fight against said SSJ characters, for starters.) If we want to compare universes and not just a limited pick of the very uppermost rank, we should go ahead and compare universes..

40k: Massive... everything. Tons of warm bodies to throw into the fray. Highly-advanced aliens. Gribbly horrors from beyond reality and known space.

DBZ: Trainable superpowered martial artists from just about everywhere. Artificial life forms capable of matching or exceeding said martial artists. Weird time and/or space manipulating training methods capable of producing an effective superpowered martial artist very rapidly. Instances of Supertech, although almost always used to make the SMAs look more impressive.

Honestly, on the universal scale, I'm betting on DBZ. There is an impressive difference in the quality of the basic 'troop' each universe will provide. On one side, going through boot camp gets you a dude with a gun and enough fear of his Commissar to not run away. On the other, basic training gets you an inhumanly fast, tough, and strong hand to hand combatant. And if the trainer is any good or rapid-advancement methods are being employed, those basic troops can also fly and throw ki blasts. And then you add in artificial or controlled life- put some Android numbers and some Saibamen in the ranks (I'm hoping nobody is insane enough to try Cell again). And whatever aliens can be acquired. Namek and Saiyan fighters start higher than most humans can reasonably be expected to reach, and then there's all the weird one-off beings like the Ginyu Force and most of Freeza's henchthings.

Ultimately you don't win a massive fight with the topmost 1%. They make the difference where they're present, but the vast majority of battles are going to be where they aren't. Which is where the individual superiority of even a lower-level DBZ fighter comes into play, combined with the ease of generating such a fighter.

Well you do win a massive fight with the topmost 1% when that 1% literally has the power to destroy every planet in the universe with minimal effort. Goku can be literally anywhere at will, and can destroy planets at will. At the beginning of the series they say that Raditz is faster than the speed of light with a power level of 1,000. By the end of the series. power levels are in the trillions. I don't know if a Psyker could turn Goku's mind inside out or not...but it assumes that he is able to get close enough to, or has enough time to react to do so.

[Artemician]

I would actually rank Inuyasha himself a newbie Daemon Prince. He successfully ripped apart a demon (who could pretty much move with your standard DBZ "turn into a bunch of lines and appear in another place" speed) with his bare hands while in his angry state. Plus some of his powers are right out of the Cool Stuff Chaos Lords Get When Pumped Up On Points page.

He would probably win against a Space Marine squad by himself if he treated them as very dangerous opponents from the get go. Your standard Space Marines are good, but they are not Daemon slaying good. That job is reserved for veterans, heroes, heavy/special equipment and specialized smurfs.

However, a Grey Knight squad or a Grey Knight Justicar would probably rip Inuyasha a new one with frightening ease.

Newbie Demon Prince? That pretty much sums up Inuyasha, minus Newbie when you're going by how he goes at the end of the series. He's a Demon Prince of the highest order - he actively roams around looking for other Demon Lords to fight. And he wins.

And with each kill, he absorbs the powers of the dead foe. With his impressive killcount, by the end of the series he's stupidly overpowered, with a toolbox of crazy abilities, including, but limited to:

The Wind Scar (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=BgzS-656nrU)
The Backlash Wave (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=kAbCmkp-cHc)
And the Kongousoha (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=k2lXyhmrygc&feature=related)
, any one of which would be more than capable of killing a squad of marines.

There's also the Meido Zangetsuha, the instant kill technique, but the anime ended before that one could be animated.

A Grey Knight squad would definitely pose a challenge, given their dedicated anti-demonic powers and technology, but looking at the raw power that Inuyasha displays, I wouldn't write him off that easily.

But that's a matter for another thread. I think this one has more than served its purpose at this point.

[F.H. Zebedee]

Yeah, the Gaang doesn't have the needed firepower. They could in theory go and totally immobilize the marines with their two earthbenders and water bender (and if they knew how twisted the 40kers were, they'd go all out. Or maybe go sympathetic, and get shot hardcore.), but I still think they're pretty much done. Just not powerful enough.

As for all the people saying stuff along the lines of "Inu Yasha will close for melee", that's only the first three seasons. Since then, his standard approach is to LEAD with an attack that doesn't just punch through stone: It. Levels. Mountains. Flat. From a football field away. Meaning that he's pretty much throwing around full-on nuclear weapons grade attacks at will, starting the moment he's allowed to move.

Space Marines are incredibly tough, and have ungodly tactics, but considering the Deus Ex level of ability of Inu Yasha alone, it's unfair. He'd atomize at least two of them in the opening five seconds. With a move that not only is incredibly powerful, but is shown as blocking/crushing virtually any other attack it hits.

Miroku typically does not resort to the wind tunnel from the start. If they fire a rocket, he'd use it to suck the rocket up. But beyond that, he's much more likely to either try to close in melee and get shot like a chump, or to uselessly chuck sutras first. If it does come into play, it wouldn't be that hard for the marines to survive it. After all, characters have avoided dieing by it who were much less powerful (human level). Miroku could accomplish something, but it's doubtful.

Shippo could theoretically be useful, but it's doubtful. His biggest, meanest illusion won't seem that threatening after Miroku and Inu Yasha bust out their Instant Win attacks.

Kagome and Sango would indeed be moderately useless. They could get some hits in, but they're most likely to be totally ignored by both sides.

I just can't believe that 40k supporters are so over the top that they'd give four mooks a win over a series that had such obscene power creep. I mean, the power creep was so intense that it KILLED the show. (I enjoyed Inu Yasha until the end of the 3rd season. After that... It had one good arc, and that was because they had chosen villains specifically to negate the biggest plot powers that the characters had. Otherwise? As I said. They've got more instant win buttons than anything short of DBZ or somesuch.)

[warty goblin]

Yeah, the Gaang doesn't have the needed firepower. They could in theory go and totally immobilize the marines with their two earthbenders and water bender (and if they knew how twisted the 40kers were, they'd go all out. Or maybe go sympathetic, and get shot hardcore.), but I still think they're pretty much done. Just not powerful enough.

As for all the people saying stuff along the lines of "Inu Yasha will close for melee", that's only the first three seasons. Since then, his standard approach is to LEAD with an attack that doesn't just punch through stone: It. Levels. Mountains. Flat. From a football field away. Meaning that he's pretty much throwing around full-on nuclear weapons grade attacks at will, starting the moment he's allowed to move.

Space Marines are incredibly tough, and have ungodly tactics, but considering the Deus Ex level of ability of Inu Yasha alone, it's unfair. He'd atomize at least two of them in the opening five seconds. With a move that not only is incredibly powerful, but is shown as blocking/crushing virtually any other attack it hits.

Miroku typically does not resort to the wind tunnel from the start. If they fire a rocket, he'd use it to suck the rocket up. But beyond that, he's much more likely to either try to close in melee and get shot like a chump, or to uselessly chuck sutras first. If it does come into play, it wouldn't be that hard for the marines to survive it. After all, characters have avoided dieing by it who were much less powerful (human level). Miroku could accomplish something, but it's doubtful.

Shippo could theoretically be useful, but it's doubtful. His biggest, meanest illusion won't seem that threatening after Miroku and Inu Yasha bust out their Instant Win attacks.

Kagome and Sango would indeed be moderately useless. They could get some hits in, but they're most likely to be totally ignored by both sides.

I just can't believe that 40k supporters are so over the top that they'd give four mooks a win over a series that had such obscene power creep. I mean, the power creep was so intense that it KILLED the show. (I enjoyed Inu Yasha until the end of the 3rd season. After that... It had one good arc, and that was because they had chosen villains specifically to negate the biggest plot powers that the characters had. Otherwise? As I said. They've got more instant win buttons than anything short of DBZ or somesuch.)

A few points:
1) Remember, not everyone on this thread knows all of this stuff about the anime, and hence go off of what people tell us. Until this post none of the stuff I've been told about Inoyasha was that over the top powerful. If indeed Inuyasha can level mountains, than he clearly wins, but again, until this post IIRC nobody has claimed mountain-leveling capabilities for him. It strikes me as a touch unfair to accuse people of fanboyism and ignoring evidence when that evidence has not been provided.

2) Space Marines are not mooks. Imperial Guard are mooks. That will be all.

[Fiery Diamond]

On second thought, after reading Artemician's and F.H. Zebedee's posts, and thinking back to the kickassery of the anime (which I love), Inuyasha wins. Hands down.

-Fiery Diamond

[Artemician]

A few points:
1) Remember, not everyone on this thread knows all of this stuff about the anime, and hence go off of what people tell us. Until this post none of the stuff I've been told about Inoyasha was that over the top powerful. If indeed Inuyasha can level mountains, than he clearly wins, but again, until this post IIRC nobody has claimed mountain-leveling capabilities for him. It strikes me as a touch unfair to accuse people of fanboyism and ignoring evidence when that evidence has not been provided.

You could, you know, look at the three videos that I linked to 2 posts above yours. Wikipedia is also your greatest friend, I myself haven't watched Inuyasha for 2 years, and am using the wiki to refresh my memory on just what he can do.


2) Space Marines are not mooks. Imperial Guard are mooks. That will be all.

Yep.

[warty goblin]

You could, you know, look at the three videos that I linked to 2 posts above yours. Wikipedia is also your greatest friend, I myself haven't watched Inuyasha for 2 years, and am using the wiki to refresh my memory on just what he can do.



Yep.

Heh, yeah I missed those, sorry. I'm used to having terrible bandwidth and thus tend to ignore internet video since it takes 45 minutes or more to load, which is stupid atm since I'm at college and can pull 150kps on a good day. It's a habit I'd try to break, but I'm about to go back to 25.00kps again for the near future.

I did check the wikipedia article for whathisface with the vacuum arm, who was the person I talked about most as well, but didn't research the entire series perhaps as thouroughly as I should have.

[Drascin]

Space Marines are ridiculously durable though, with an emphasis on the ridiculous; apparently one of them survived being stepped on by a Titan in one source.

I personally prefer to go a bit by game stats too. I mean, yeah, by fluff, I have read about a Marine (not even a captain, just a run-o-the-mill marine) soloing two carnifexes at melee distance with nothing but a bolter, and... well, I have played Tyranids, and sorry, but no. It irritates me to no end that fluff keeps overstating their power while downplaying almost every other armies' powerful units to horrible levels.

Also, to get back on the discussion again, I dislike Inuyasha as much as anyone, but he's a shonen protagonist especifically famous for power creep. There's no way a marine squad can stand to that. Best case scenario, they shoot his companions and kill them, he goes totally berserk when Kagome bites it, he disintegrates them in 1.5 seconds after that. Worst case, they don't even have time to raise their weapons before he employs a tac-nuke-level attack on them.

I'm sorry for Aang and his guys, though. They're cool, but they just lack the ranged firepower to make a dent in time in this fight.

[Idiotbox90]

If the Space Marines don't kill Aang quickly, but do make him angry enough to go into the Avatar State, he has moderate odds of success. However, if they just open fire, the Gaang gets slaughtered.

[Rutee]

A few points:
1) Remember, not everyone on this thread knows all of this stuff about the anime, and hence go off of what people tell us. Until this post none of the stuff I've been told about Inoyasha was that over the top powerful. If indeed Inuyasha can level mountains, than he clearly wins, but again, until this post IIRC nobody has claimed mountain-leveling capabilities for him. It strikes me as a touch unfair to accuse people of fanboyism and ignoring evidence when that evidence has not been provided.

2) Space Marines are not mooks. Imperial Guard are mooks. That will be all.

1: Artemician had been pretty good about that, actually.
2: If you don't have the significance to get a name, you're a glorified mook. End Discussion. It doesn't matter how powerful it is, it's a grunt.


I personally prefer to go a bit by game stats too. I mean, yeah, by fluff, I have read about a Marine (not even a captain, just a run-o-the-mill marine) soloing two carnifexes at melee distance with nothing but a bolter, and... well, I have played Tyranids, and sorry, but no. It irritates me to no end that fluff keeps overstating their power while downplaying almost every other armies' powerful units to horrible levels.
Mm, I'd be in your boat if WH40k fluff synced up with game crunch at all. It doesn't. Though I bet the carnifexes woulda won if the book was about 'Nids :P

As is, it's not like trying to compare Overlords based on their levels, where they sync up with their powerlevels. It's just a waste of time XD

[konfeta]

2: If you don't have the significance to get a name, you're a glorified mook. End Discussion. It doesn't matter how powerful it is, it's a grunt.

As much as I love my smurfs, Rutee is right. Guys. Space Marines die ALL THE GOD DAMN TIME. They are mooks. Yes, they beat most other mooks into fine and bloody mist, but they also get slaughtered because more often then not, they fight equals or betters:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Destructor_%28weapon%29#Destructor

This device's effectiveness in combat has been confirmed time and again, with reports of a single Haemonculus able to decimate an entire squad of Space Marines with a single well-aimed volley, every man among them dying from sheer pain, or worse, leaving them alive but immobilized. Blind, hideously burned, hemorrhaging blood from every orifice, wracked in unimaginable amounts of agony, helpless and in the twisted hands of the Haemonculi.

There are plenty of examples out there where Space Marines find themselves utterly destroyed despite their supposed overabundance of plot armor. As awesome as they are, they have their own hierarchy of named characters, ranks correlated to badassery, and overabundance of redshirts.

[Mordar]

My power level goes: Everything < 40k < TA < TTGL < Custodes < a magic hand that shoots bees, though since I steer cleer of some of the more insane stuff it's clearly far from complete.

Well...you mention a magic hand that shoots bees. What about an old man that releases dogs? Or bees? Or dogs with bees in their mouths so when they bark they shoot bees at you? Where does that rate on your scale?

By the way, what are TA and TTGL?

- Mordar

[LBO]

Well...you mention a magic hand that shoots bees. What about an old man that releases dogs? Or bees? Or dogs with bees in their mouths so when they bark they shoot bees at you? Where does that rate on your scale?

By the way, what are TA and TTGL?

- Mordar
Oh dammit, you saw my Zero Punctuation and raised me a Simpsons! This can only lead to... A VERSUS THREAD OF EPIC PROPORTIONS! :smalltongue:

...No. No matter who you are, the moment you're compared to a magical hand that shoots bees, you're going to f***ing lose.

TA: Total Annihilation (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TotalAnnihilation) (game that featured two sets of massively advanced implacable planet-looting Von Neumann swarms trying to annihilate each other, either of which is basically unstoppable by anyone's standards (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79436)).
TTGL: Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TengenToppaGurrenLagann)... an anime mecha series on (insert hallucinogen here). Galaxies are used as shuriken. That should tell you almost everything you need to know both about the series and where it stands on the Sliding Scale of Utter Pwnage.

[Poison_Fish]

To answer, TA out epics 40k. TA stands for Total annihilation, and the scale of which it's warfare and grimindarkness is, is beyond that of 40K

Linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_Anihilation)

TTGL is Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann, a super robot show that gets to the size of galaxy's. These robots abilities are powered simply by intense will and awesomeness.

Linky 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurren_Lagann)

Edit: Simu'd

[warty goblin]

As much as I love my smurfs, Rutee is right. Guys. Space Marines die ALL THE GOD DAMN TIME. They are mooks. Yes, they beat most other mooks into fine and bloody mist, but they also get slaughtered because more often then not, they fight equals or betters:

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Destructor_%28weapon%29#Destructor

This device's effectiveness in combat has been confirmed time and again, with reports of a single Haemonculus able to decimate an entire squad of Space Marines with a single well-aimed volley, every man among them dying from sheer pain, or worse, leaving them alive but immobilized. Blind, hideously burned, hemorrhaging blood from every orifice, wracked in unimaginable amounts of agony, helpless and in the twisted hands of the Haemonculi.

There are plenty of examples out there where Space Marines find themselves utterly destroyed despite their supposed overabundance of plot armor. As awesome as they are, they have their own hierarchy of named characters, ranks correlated to badassery, and overabundance of redshirts.

I'm geniunely curious here, so don't take this as an insult or anything like that. If mortality rate is all that determines mookdom, does that mean that you think that in a series with minimal or no plot armor, the protagonists are neccesarily mooks? I realize of course there are series where the protagonists are mooks, and that is rather the point, but do you think it possible to have a series that's not about mooks yet still has a very high protagonist or major supporting character death rate?

[Nonanonymous]

Miroku beats Space Marines, assuming none of the things they can throw at him are dangerous to absorb with aforementioned cursed arm. They could split up to try and outmaneuver his cone of death, but that's just inviting Inuyasha to destroy them in a one on one fight where his superior anime-type strength, toughness, and Giant Energy Attacks can easily beat down a Space Marine. Kagome and Sango mostly try not to get shot; unless Sango picked up a major powerup in some filler, I don't think her giant boomerang is apt to do much more than rattle a Marine, and Kagome is fairly useless without a demon to purge with sacredness.

I believe burning bolts of energy and mini-warheads would be pretty dangerous to absorb into your arm, and Inuyasha is both A)Most certainly not concretely more powerful than a space marine, B)Probably not as powerful as someone in power armor and C)Screw him, all he has is a big sword and energy attacks that are likely on par with things that space marine armor has stood up to before, they on the other hand, have lasguns, chainfists, bolters, etc..

The Gaang auto-fails because they aren't allowed to kill anyone.

[LBO]

It's not so dangerous when it's a black hole, they have the aforementioned mary-sue sword of a thousand whatevers, and mook marines do NOT use lasguns OR chainfists.

C'mon, you're making us other fanboys look bad. :smallyuk:

[Nonanonymous]

It's not so dangerous when it's a black hole, they have the aforementioned mary-sue sword of a thousand whatevers, and mook marines do NOT use lasguns OR chainfists.

C'mon, you're making us other fanboys look bad. :smallyuk:

I was using lasgun as a general class of energy weapons, and I'm not a dilligent fanboy either, I just won't let some overblown soap opera with giant-swords take the cake.

[F.H. Zebedee]

Sorry about the condescending tone. I'm just a l'il tired of 40k beats all schtick that tends to go on. We all have our fields of expertiese, and mine just happens to be different from yours. Sorry again.

But yah, it's pretty simple: Avatar>Marines>IY. Which is funny in that the order of power for this matchup is about the exact opposite of the order I like them in. (Though Inu Yasha can fluctuate heavily, due to inconsistant quality all throughout.)

And

EDIT:... Wow. We just proved that Inu Yasha is capable of effortlessly manuevering carrying more than 10 tonnes, can survive pretty much any normal injury (and shrug of most ordinary attacks without damage) (This is including getting stabbed in the heart, getting a massive portion of his liver removed in the middle of fighting an equally powerful foe, immersion in lava (IIRC), and can unleash full on nuclear level attacks at will. (If I can find the clips of right after he upgraded his weapon... I remember him frolicking around and leveling mountains left and right...)

Not to say that the fight isn't a bit unfair, whatwith Inu Yasha being broken as all hell, but he's in a different league. Just because something rather violently sucks doesn't mean it can't be overpowered as hell. *cough*SilverAgeSupes*wheeze*

[Nonanonymous]

OMG, Nonanonymous... Wow. We just proved that Inu Yasha is capable of effortlessly manuevering carrying more than 10 tonnes, can survive pretty much any normal injury (and shrug of most ordinary attacks without damage) (This is including getting stabbed in the heart, getting a massive portion of his liver removed in the middle of fighting an equally powerful foe, immersion in lava (IIRC), and can unleash full on nuclear level attacks at will. (If I can find the clips of right after he upgraded his weapon... I remember him frolicking around and leveling mountains left and right...)

Not to say that the fight isn't a bit unfair, whatwith Inu Yasha being broken as all hell, but he's in a different league.

Alright, I'm guilty of not reading an entire thread before posting this time (I am on dial-up, so time does tend to be an issue), and thanks for the summary, but let's continue based on this much. First, he's basically got a lot of dead weight to carry around, and he's also emotionally attached to it. Wouldn't it be reasonable to assume that the marines advantage in numbers and the possible 'sploit of [endanger Kagome, shoot him with everything they've got while he's in a cheesy "Don't die!" dialogue sequence] due to this much would put them on at least an even playing field?

[F.H. Zebedee]

This basically asks the question of what kind of genre the battle takes place in, and the mood established. Because if they gun down Inu Yasha's deadweight, there's two options:
1: He sobs and pauses, letting them shoot him to pieces.
2: He does the other shonen protagonist cliche, and massacres the enemy in an incredibly ruthless way.

Considering the whole situation, if that were to happen, we'd get a strangled cry of "Kagomeeee!" and then the noises of Inu Yasha dismembering the squad almost instantly.

After a little review, though, on the other end of the spectrum, it might be a fair fight between Aang and company and the Marines... if the Marines came in unarmed.

I put the odds as follows:
Avatar vs. 40k
5% chance of Avatar team winning, due to various incapacitations and such. High chances of Zuko/Sokka casualties.
95% chance the Marines stomp the Gaang. High chances of at least one of them dieing/being sunk into the ground beyond recovery.

40k vs. IY
30% chance Inu Yasha starts with a Windscar like a tard, and wins pretty much instantly.
40% chance of a more prolonged match, with possible Inu Yasha snapping.
20% chance of the Marines gunning down the whole team before they could actually accomplish much.
10% chance on the Deadweight KO situation proposed above.
It's much closer than the first match, but IY still wins overall.

[Mr. Scaly]

I'm geniunely curious here, so don't take this as an insult or anything like that. If mortality rate is all that determines mookdom, does that mean that you think that in a series with minimal or no plot armor, the protagonists are neccesarily mooks? I realize of course there are series where the protagonists are mooks, and that is rather the point, but do you think it possible to have a series that's not about mooks yet still has a very high protagonist or major supporting character death rate?

An interesting question...Salvatore's various books come to mind. Not to spoil anything but in his Sellswords trilogy all kinds of main characters that have been around since the beginning bite the dust. And I hear that most of his books are like that. But in general, mooks will be mooks, and they'll always die. If it helps I've mostly thought of them as mooks when they work for some important character as opposed to how fast they die.

[Illiterate Scribe]

So why are you here?

General righteous indignation?

Also, note that, this being a civil board, we don't refer to attributes of others as 'disgusting', Rutee, please. And also - this could apply to the entire thread, to be honest - it may have been a while since you acquainted yourself with this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1).



I think 40k fanboys is a pretty cool guy, eh overstates the fluff and doesn't afraid of anything.

Nuh-huh.

i think britaboo fandom is a pretty cool guy ...

[Rutee]

I'm geniunely curious here, so don't take this as an insult or anything like that. If mortality rate is all that determines mookdom, does that mean that you think that in a series with minimal or no plot armor, the protagonists are neccesarily mooks? I realize of course there are series where the protagonists are mooks, and that is rather the point, but do you think it possible to have a series that's not about mooks yet still has a very high protagonist or major supporting character death rate?

If you don't have a name, you are by default, a mook. No, The Nameless One doesn't count; He has a name. It's "The Nameless One". Just beneath that is "Do you have a face?" That's more evocative, but there are named characters who never reveal their faces.

[warty goblin]

If you don't have a name, you are by default, a mook. No, The Nameless One doesn't count; He has a name. It's "The Nameless One". Just beneath that is "Do you have a face?" That's more evocative, but there are named characters who never reveal their faces.

So then it's impossible to have a story about mooks, since you pretty much have to give them names and faces in order to tell a story about them? I guess what I'm trying to figure here is if mook is a designation of a character's significance within a story or within a universe.

I mean say I write a story about some sort of intersteller war, with Book #1 focusing on the Admiral of a major fleet of warships who wins key battles and so forth. Clearly she's not a mook by any definition, even though the style is a distant third person sort of narration.

Then say I write a spinoff novel about the Admiral's less brilliant and significant second in commmand, who gets killed in action near the end of Book #1. The second is quite significant to the story, but in the universal picture is not, while the Admiral is much more significant to the scope of the universe, but much less so for the story. That's Book #2. Is the Second in command then a mook?

For Book #3 I tell the story of a Captain of a ship in a different fleet who does recon work, so he's important, but not overly so. However I put a lot more emphasis on characterization and personal interactions, making the Captain himself a much more important part of the story.. He's not universally important, but is incrediably significant to the story that he's in, even though he didn't show up at all in the previous two stories.

For book #4 I tell the story of a complete grunt, a footsoldier in a failed planetary occupation, who we only ever get to know by their ID number. No name, or anything, just a number, the final digits of which change to reflect the character's increasing rank. On the other hand this story is, unlike the previous three, told from the first person. At the end of the story the character triggers a land mine, is seriously wounded, and blacks out, the final page of the novel is a casualty list with the main character's number next to the text MIA. Is this character a mook? The character is completely insignificant from a universal point of view, so much so that we don't even find out what happens to them, because nobody cares, and doesn't even have a name, but is probably the character we are closest to out of the four books.

[Solo]

If you don't have a name, you are by default, a mook.

Graham Greene would disagree.

[konfeta]

'm geniunely curious here, so don't take this as an insult or anything like that. If mortality rate is all that determines mookdom, does that mean that you think that in a series with minimal or no plot armor, the protagonists are neccesarily mooks? I realize of course there are series where the protagonists are mooks, and that is rather the point, but do you think it possible to have a series that's not about mooks yet still has a very high protagonist or major supporting character death rate?

A mook is simply someone who isn't a main character that interacts with main characters in violent manner. Space Marines are not main characters by default. A title of being a Space Marine does not automatically make you a significant character. It makes you a very well trained, equipped, and whatever-boosted soldier, no less, no more. While they are tremendously powerful soldiers and have an overabundance of special characters (much higher ratio of special to mook than most other races), a squad of Space Marines who aren't main characters of a story are redshirts/mooks or a plot device or whatever.

While high death rate doesn't guarantee mookdom, it's one of the most often encountered properties of mooks. If every Space Marine was a marked main character with their own focus in a told story, then yes, Space Marines wouldn't be mooks by the definition I use. But as it stands, there are plenty of Space Marines who are treated as nothing more than exceptional soldiers in a large number of stories.

*And guys, there isn't an absolute line by which you divide significant characters from mooks. It's always relative. A Space Marine can vary between being a drop in greater conflict (Horus Heresy) to being a protagonist/antagonist of <insert Black Library Novel here>. But that can apply to any other member of almost any species/group/force/whatever. But in most cases, unless your soldier type is singled out as a character, he is a mook. Space Marines are soldiers, and fall under that principle.

[Tengu]

The Gaang auto-fails because they aren't allowed to kill anyone.

Actually, that's more like auto-win if we take this ability under account. Aang's "nobody dies on-screen" aura would render all opposition useless, as without the ability to kill SM's bullets could as well simply be arrows.

[Rutee]

So then it's impossible to have a story about mooks, since you pretty much have to give them names and faces in order to tell a story about them? I guess what I'm trying to figure here is if mook is a designation of a character's significance within a story or within a universe.
Depends. Do you want it to be about /a/ mook (In which case, yes, it's impossible), or /mooks/, plural? Because you can do the latter. But you would have to avoid characterization. It would, effectively, be a terse war novel.


I mean say I write a story about some sort of intersteller war, with Book #1 focusing on the Admiral of a major fleet of warships who wins key battles and so forth. Clearly she's not a mook by any definition, even though the style is a distant third person sort of narration.
Correct.


Then say I write a spinoff novel about the Admiral's less brilliant and significant second in commmand, who gets killed in action near the end of Book #1. The second is quite significant to the story, but in the universal picture is not, while the Admiral is much more significant to the scope of the universe, but much less so for the story. That's Book #2. Is the Second in command then a mook?
No. They cleared check 1, having a name, and they're significant to the story.

Idiosynchratically, it's possible, but I also use Mook for Unlucky Everydudes and other forms of Everymen in stories, because I despise Everymen.


For Book #3 I tell the story of a Captain of a ship in a different fleet who does recon work, so he's important, but not overly so. However I put a lot more emphasis on characterization and personal interactions, making the Captain himself a much more important part of the story.. He's not universally important, but is incrediably significant to the story that he's in, even though he didn't show up at all in the previous two stories.

Correct, he's not a mook.


For book #4 I tell the story of a complete grunt, a footsoldier in a failed planetary occupation, who we only ever get to know by their ID number. No name, or anything, just a number, the final digits of which change to reflect the character's increasing rank. On the other hand this story is, unlike the previous three, told from the first person. At the end of the story the character triggers a land mine, is seriously wounded, and blacks out, the final page of the novel is a casualty list with the main character's number next to the text MIA. Is this character a mook? The character is completely insignificant from a universal point of view, so much so that we don't even find out what happens to them, because nobody cares, and doesn't even have a name, but is probably the character we are closest to out of the four books.

A number can be a name, as Henchmen Numbers 21 and 24 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monarch_henchmen#.2321) show. IT's unusual, so we have to look at other factors, such as "Is he subject to Conservation of Ninjutsu", or "How does he survive battles?" As they're /actually getting promoted/, we can surmise however, that they are not likely Red Shirts. (Though Red Shirt Captains can appear, such as in Super Robot Wars games)

[Mr. Scaly]

But if you think about it, even mooks have names or ID numbers or whatever. You could take one and put him on a throne and he'd be a part of the supporting cast because he's more visible. Mooks are mooks because they're not the guys in charge, they're the ones doing the fighting.

[Fri]

After readin this thread, I wondered how mankind survived in Inuyasha's setting AT ALL.

Inuyasha isn't the strongest demon around, and in that setting, at least in japan, demons wander around everywhere in far, far greater number than men that are strong enough to stand against them (like, sango's demon hunter clan, or miroku's cult). Even then, sango's demon hunter clan and miroku's cult isn't that strong, they're toast if they met someone in Inuyasha's power level.

How did mankind survived?

[turkishproverb]

Oh please. "It can blow up tanks, so it's better then a human!" "What if the human can disable tanks?"

For the love of God, WH40k fanboyism is disgusting. I don't even know Avatar, and hate Inuyasha, and I can manage to not completely underrate these guys.

I love you and forgive every argument we ever had because of this statement.

I enjoy some of the WH Fluff (Of course, then again, I'm the only one that can tell when a story is SM propaganda and when its in universe and has their still uber but honest power levels. TO say nothing of the *ahem* objectivity of the oponnents.)


Space Marines are ridiculously durable though, with an emphasis on the ridiculous; apparently one of them survived being stepped on by a Titan in one source.

He was in Tactical Dreadnaught (terminator) Armour! A F***ING space wolf. The group that didn't break up into chapters the same way as everyone else because NOONE WANTED TO GO AFTER THEM.


If by injured by an arrow you mean injured by a +5 blessed holy brilliant demon slaying arrow shot by the legendary priestess reincarnated who everything she touches becomes a super anti demon weapon, then yes, Innuyasha can be hurt by arrows.

And shippo is pretty good at illusions. There is no Librarian around to protect the space marines from psychic attacks, and when they see a giant demon appear from nowhere they surely will focus the fire on it and not the Innuyasha crew.

Plus blackhole and claws of blood are both ranged attacks. And the giant boomerang can cut trough demon skin like butter. I'm pretty sure it can dent SM armor.

Miroku may not be very durable, but he surely is at least as agile as Innuyasha, wich means he has a good chance to jump from cover to cover to close in with the SM and unleash black hole power.



+5 Snarkiness Bonus


It's mainly 'cause people forget that 40k was meant as satire.



Including the people running the show.

INdeed.


The devout servants of the great and immortal God-Emperor are busy reclaiming the Cadia gate, thank you very much.

"I like swords!"
"Welcome to Ulthwe"
"I like swords!"
"Welcome to Ulthwe"



The MBaIGEoM, PbUHN, GtHoT* would help 40k, for starters. The Chaos Gods might posess DBZ guys and that wouldn't be pretty either. Vegeta, for one, has been shown to be vulnerable to posession by manevolent forces. (Over 9000, in fact)

*The Most Benificient and Immortal God-Emperor of Manking, Praise be Upon His Name, Glory to Him on Terra


The god emporor is braindead, his corpse is being kept a psychic beacon through the sacrifice of over a million psyckers a day.

ITs the space wolves that help.


2) Space Marines are not mooks. Imperial Guard are mooks. That will be all.

Great Post.


1: Artemician had been pretty good about that, actually.
2: If you don't have the significance to get a name, you're a glorified mook. End Discussion. It doesn't matter how powerful it is, it's a grunt.


Mm, I'd be in your boat if WH40k fluff synced up with game crunch at all. It doesn't. Though I bet the carnifexes woulda won if the book was about 'Nids :P

As is, it's not like trying to compare Overlords based on their levels, where they sync up with their powerlevels. It's just a waste of time XD


2: Lol. So, are they a grunt, or a mook? :smallamused:

also, Yea, people forget alot of these stories are written as propoganda.

[Rutee]

After readin this thread, I wondered how mankind survived in Inuyasha's setting AT ALL.

Inuyasha isn't the strongest demon around, and in that setting, at least in japan, demons wander around everywhere in far, far greater number than men that are strong enough to stand against them (like, sango's demon hunter clan, or miroku's cult). Even then, sango's demon hunter clan and miroku's cult isn't that strong, they're toast if they met someone in Inuyasha's power level.

How did mankind survived?

The same way it did in DnD. Plot armor.


2: Lol. So, are they a grunt, or a mook?
The words are effectively the same thing, so whichever you like saying better.

[Artemician]

The same way it did in DnD. Plot armor.

I can't really confirm that the author actually said this, but I've always been under the apprehension that the only reason mankind has survived as long as it did was because of human sympathizer demons like Inuyasha's Dad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inu_no_Taisho).

Stupid hippy do-gooders.

[Oslecamo]

After readin this thread, I wondered how mankind survived in Inuyasha's setting AT ALL.

Inuyasha isn't the strongest demon around, and in that setting, at least in japan, demons wander around everywhere in far, far greater number than men that are strong enough to stand against them (like, sango's demon hunter clan, or miroku's cult). Even then, sango's demon hunter clan and miroku's cult isn't that strong, they're toast if they met someone in Inuyasha's power level.

How did mankind survived?

Several reasons:

1-99% of the demons out there are actually pretty weak and can be defeated by regular humans with normal weapons.

2-The remaining 1% that indeed goes around shooting bolts and is uber strong spends as much time fighting humans as fighting other demons, just like in D&D devils and demons spend a good deal of time fighting between them and against themselves. Just look at Inuyasha's brother, who seems to don't have anything better to do than trying to defeat him.

3-Then there are the Heros like Kagome and Miroku who can kick demon ass and wander the world slaying them, just like in D&D there are parties of heros that wanderthe world

4-Demons are very vulnerableto the right kinds of magic.Innuyasha may be the OMG PWRNZ, but even he has to obey to the power of his enchanted necklace, human made,wich forces him to obey Kagome's orders(the usual SIT comandwich makes him fall in the floor).

[Mr. Scaly]

5 -humans tend to breed very quickly to make up for losses to natural predators.

[Fri]

5 -humans tend to breed very quickly to make up for losses to natural predators.

Ah, that's it I guess. I remember my friend once made a light hearted fantasy setting. There, human is considered as a pest by the elder races. They're weak and destructive, but breed (from their point of view) like rabbits!

[Ubiq]

If by injured by an arrow you mean injured by a +5 blessed holy brilliant demon slaying arrow shot by the legendary priestess reincarnated who everything she touches becomes a super anti demon weapon, then yes, Innuyasha can be hurt by arrows.


Isn't just about every type of Space Marine ammo blessed by Tech-Priests as a part of the manufacturing process so that they'll be effective against demons and other Chaotic forces? If he can be injured by a holy arrow, then isn't there at least a chance that he's going to be vulnerable to bolter shells, which are far, far more powerful than a mere arrow?



And shippo is pretty good at illusions. There is no Librarian around to protect the space marines from psychic attacks, and when they see a giant demon appear from nowhere they surely will focus the fire on it and not the Innuyasha crew.

Admittedly, it's been a long time since I watched Inu-Yasha, but wasn't Shippo often near or inside of his illusions? Beyond that, weren't they usually dispelled the second something hit them thanks to the fact that his powers weren't fully developed yet?

His illusions aren't going to distract them very long.


Plus blackhole and claws of blood are both ranged attacks. And the giant boomerang can cut trough demon skin like butter. I'm pretty sure it can dent SM armor.

Not necessarily; it was designed to fight demons and is most likely been blessed or made out of something noted for it's anti-demon properties. That doesn't mean that it'll cut through power armor. Beyond that, don't Space Marines have skin capable of resisting at least small arms fire?



Miroku may not be very durable, but he surely is at least as agile as Innuyasha, wich means he has a good chance to jump from cover to cover to close in with the SM and unleash black hole power.

What happens if they have Hellfire bolter shells or something along those lines? He can't take in poisonous items without receiving damage and I doubt that the caustic material in the Hellfire round will do him any good at all.

[LBO]

Isn't just about every type of Space Marine ammo blessed by Tech-Priests as a part of the manufacturing process so that they'll be effective against demons and other Chaotic forces?
No, that's Mary Sue Grey Knight gear, which is specifically for daemonslaying. Praying to your stuff is standard maintenance for Imperial gear, though, so it might work...


Beyond that, don't Space Marines have skin capable of resisting at least small arms fire?
No. They're extremely hard to kill due to insta-coagulating Larramans, multiple-redundant organs, massively enhanced bone structure and the Black Carapace, but they do not have bulletproof skin. That's why they wear armour.

[Illiterate Scribe]

No, that's Mary Sue Grey Knight gear, which is specifically for daemonslaying.
Hang on a second ... can someone explain to me how the genocidal, 'we'll kill anything that looks corrupt, and everything within a thousand mile radius of it, oh, and our good friends the Relictors, we'll slaughter the lot of them, too', Grey Knights are Mary Sues? That's like saying that Admiral Helena Caine from BS:G is a Mary Sue.


Praying to your stuff is standard maintenance for Imperial gear, though, so it might work...

MORE DAKKA ENNY-WUN?

[warty goblin]

Hang on a second ... can someone explain to me how the genocidal, 'we'll kill anything that looks corrupt, and everything within a thousand mile radius of it, oh, and our good friends the Relictors, we'll slaughter the lot of them, too', Grey Knights are Mary Sues? That's like saying that Admiral Helena Caine from BS:G is a Mary Sue.


I think you might be on to something there...
Honestly I can't even think how you could have a Mary Sue in WH40K. I mean, isn't one of the defining traits of Mary-Suedom being disgustingly good, or at least being passed off as disgustingly good? Yeah, there's words for people like that in the Grim Darkness of the Future, and those words are "cannon fodder."

[Oslecamo]

Isn't just about every type of Space Marine ammo blessed by Tech-Priests as a part of the manufacturing process so that they'll be effective against demons and other Chaotic forces? If he can be injured by a holy arrow, then isn't there at least a chance that he's going to be vulnerable to bolter shells, which are far, far more powerful than a mere arrow?


Tech priests bless most of the SM weapons, yes, but most of those blessings are actually just as effective as real world blessing. They're 99% useless superstition, togheter with some decent stuff like "please don't shoot the plasma gun more than necessary ot it'll explode in your face".

The Grey Knights do have weapons specially made to fight creatures from the warp, but Innuyasha isn't one of them, so too bad. Otherwise Innuyasha is a creature from the warp and gains the warp related powers, and then the SM squad is even more screwed.

Kagome's arrows make bolters look like toy guns. There wasn't a single demon on the whole series who would take one and not be severly damaged, if not instantly slain, while monstruous creatures in WH40K pretty much eat bolter fire for breackfast. It's not the arrow that really counts, but the blessing granted by Kagome, who is pretty much the strongest priestess of the whole series.

It was one of her arrows who managed to split the sphere of the four spirits, the most powerfull relic on Innuyasha's world, after all.



Admittedly, it's been a long time since I watched Inu-Yasha, but wasn't Shippo often near or inside of his illusions? Beyond that, weren't they usually dispelled the second something hit them thanks to the fact that his powers weren't fully developed yet?

His illusions aren't going to distract them very long.


More than once Shippo used his illusions to distract an oponent time enough for him to run the hell away from it. So he doesn't need to be near or inside them. His illusions are dispeled when the enemy realizes they actually aren't doing him any harm, like for example a giant spinner falling on your head, making your fall on the ground with great pain, untill you realize that there isn't an hole being drilled in your head, and the the spinner returns to normal size and the pain goes away.

It'll probably only buy a few seconds, I admit it, but it will be enough for Innuyasha to close in.



Not necessarily; it was designed to fight demons and is most likely been blessed or made out of something noted for it's anti-demon properties. That doesn't mean that it'll cut through power armor. Beyond that, don't Space Marines have skin capable of resisting at least small arms fire?


No. Like said above, they wear armor precisely because they aren't bullet proof, and even SM regular power armor is far from indestructible. They're tough and excelent against light fire, but any kind of decent explosive weapon has a good chance of taking them down.




What happens if they have Hellfire bolter shells or something along those lines? He can't take in poisonous items without receiving damage and I doubt that the caustic material in the Hellfire round will do him any good at all.

The poisonous bees were specially made to fight Miroku. Miroku has absorbed plenty of other poisonous demons, rocks, plants, trees, air, blood and whatever else is in the battlefield. If just absorbing health damaging substances would be enough to take him down he would be dead long ago.


This is all assuming we are talking from newbie Innuyasha, because as the show goes one, he becomes able to unleash mighty energy waves from his sword that literally blow up mountains at range, wich means the SM are awfully outclassed.

[turkishproverb]

No, that's Mary Sue Grey Knight gear, which is specifically for daemonslaying. Praying to your stuff is standard maintenance for Imperial gear, though, so it might work...

No. THe prayers are because they've forgotten how technology works and gotten all ritualistic.


Tech priests bless most of the SM weapons, yes, but most of those blessings are actually just as effective as real world blessing. They're 99% useless superstition, togheter with some decent stuff like "please don't shoot the plasma gun more than necessary ot it'll explode in your face".

No. Like said above, they wear armor precisely because they aren't bullet proof, and even SM regular power armor is far from indestructible. They're tough and excelent against light fire, but any kind of decent explosive weapon has a good chance of taking them down.



The poisonous bees were specially made to fight Miroku. Miroku has absorbed plenty of other poisonous demons, rocks, plants, trees, air, blood and whatever else is in the battlefield. If just absorbing health damaging substances would be enough to take him down he would be dead long ago.


This is all assuming we are talking from newbie Innuyasha, because as the show goes one, he becomes able to unleash mighty energy waves from his sword that literally blow up mountains at range, wich means the SM are awfully outclassed.

What he said.

[F.H. Zebedee]

Not saying it'll really hurt the Marines that much, but one of the traits of the hiraikotsu is ripping through trees before hitting a target, or cratering the ground very heavily at a point of impact. Now, unless it's blessed against trees, the blessed effectiveness idea is only a slight factor. If it hits a Marine, they're going on their butts with a good sized ding in their armor. Enough to kill them, or even really hurt? No. But like Shippo, good enough to buy some time.

[LBO]

No. THe prayers are because they've forgotten how technology works and gotten all ritualistic.
Was just an idle musing, but I can't resist devil's advocate here: So? Prayer is prayer, holy is holy, blessings are blessings. Unless you have some sort of sliding scale of holiness. "Newly-rediscovered and improved bolt round, guaranteed fourteen hours shriving in the Cathedra Munitionapolis on Triplex Phall! Kills vampires, but leaves daemons standing!"

Mary Sue as in boringly perfect, not as in nice people. I mean, come on. They're psychic super super soldiers that make regular Space Marines look like wimps, they can fire fricking storm bolters one-handed with a force weapon in the other, they have psychic shrouding, weapons that ignore invulnerable saves (you know, those things which were supposed to be invulnerable, before warscythes and Daemonhunters) and they have Elites.

Personality-wise, of course, they're certainly not any nicer than anyone else GRIMDARK.

[Illiterate Scribe]

I think you might be on to something there...
Honestly I can't even think how you could have a Mary Sue in WH40K. I mean, isn't one of the defining traits of Mary-Suedom being disgustingly good, or at least being passed off as disgustingly good? Yeah, there's words for people like that in the Grim Darkness of the Future, and those words are "cannon fodder."

Exactly - as I've said before, a setting where the designers actively hunt down the most likeable factions and make them really really evil (oh, you liked the Eldar? They consider a handful of their lives to be worth a few dozen billion of yours. Or, perhaps, the Tau appeared to be all bright and idealistic? Uh, yeah, they only follow the greater good because of Ethereal mind control, and make liberal use of concentration camps).


No. THe prayers are because they've forgotten how technology works and gotten all ritualistic.

Again, one word:

Orks.


Was just an idle musing, but I can't resist devil's advocate here: So? Prayer is prayer, holy is holy, blessings are blessings. Unless you have some sort of sliding scale of holiness. "Newly-rediscovered and improved bolt round, guaranteed fourteen hours shriving in the Cathedra Munitionapolis on Triplex Phall! Kills vampires, but leaves daemons standing!"

I thought Triplex Phall only made super-zippy lasguns. :smalltongue:


Mary Sue as in boringly perfect, not as in nice people. I mean, come on. They're psychic super super soldiers that make regular Space Marines look like wimps, they can fire fricking storm bolters one-handed with a force weapon in the other, they have psychic shrouding, weapons that ignore invulnerable saves (you know, those things which were supposed to be invulnerable, before warscythes and Daemonhunters) and they have Elites.

Personality-wise, of course, they're certainly not any nicer than anyone else GRIMDARK.

I don't know about you, but I don't find 'horrifically amoral types wielding ancient, powerful, decaying weaponry' Mary Sue at all. 'Boringly perfect'? More like utterly terrifying and horrible.

[warty goblin]

Was just an idle musing, but I can't resist devil's advocate here: So? Prayer is prayer, holy is holy, blessings are blessings. Unless you have some sort of sliding scale of holiness. "Newly-rediscovered and improved bolt round, guaranteed fourteen hours shriving in the Cathedra Munitionapolis on Triplex Phall! Kills vampires, but leaves daemons standing!"

Mary Sue as in boringly perfect, not as in nice people. I mean, come on. They're psychic super super soldiers that make regular Space Marines look like wimps, they can fire fricking storm bolters one-handed with a force weapon in the other, they have psychic shrouding, weapons that ignore invulnerable saves (you know, those things which were supposed to be invulnerable, before warscythes and Daemonhunters) and they have Elites.

Personality-wise, of course, they're certainly not any nicer than anyone else GRIMDARK.
You might have a point with the sacred holy ammunition thingy.

"Oh God-Emperor, we who are your Chosen thank you for the gift of high explosive mass reactive ammunition we are about to recieve, and for the deaths of the heretic mutent zeno scum which we shall bring about in Your Glorious Name using Thy Most Glorious Bolter Rounds. Amen. CLEANSE PURGE KILL!!!!"
Seriously, if that doesn't make something holy, I'm not sure what would.

On the Mary Sue thing, that seems to be a complaint about their power level, which is rather extreme, but remember, to be a Mary Sue, you not only have to be more powerful than everyone else, but also moraly superior and teach everyone the error of their ways. Which I suppose using IoM style morality, the Grey Knights do. I mean they show others the right path of zeno killing, heretic purging and demon-impaling, and if you don't follow they beat you to death with your lungs, thus showing other sinners the importance of worshiping the God-Emperor properly. So within the context of the story they are indeed Mary Sues and you are right after all. Fascinating.

[LBO]

I thought Triplex Phall only made super-zippy lasguns.
Sod it, it was just the first non-Mars forgeworld I could remember off the top of my head. >_> What would you prefer? Ryza? Gryphonne IV?


I don't know about you, but I don't find 'horrifically amoral types wielding ancient, powerful, decaying weaponry' Mary Sue at all.
I use "Mary Sue" in a fairly loose way, to mean "boringly perfect/unstoppable" rather than "morally superior" - for instance, the CORE and ARM are Mary Sue enemies for anyone who isn't a galaxy-looting Von Neumann swarm, the Sun Crusher is a Mary Sue warship. Sorry if that wasn't clear.


Seriously, if that doesn't make something holy, I'm not sure what would.
But then... on the other hand, you take the Sword of a Thousand Righteous Exterminatuses, hand-forged by the finest Techpriests of Mars while a billion onlookers chant out canticles of loathing, quenched in the tears and virgin blood of ten Living Saints, covered in imagery of the aquila and the Omnissiah, inlaid with a thousand devotional prayers carved in the bones of past Ecclesiarchs, has angel wings, squirts blessed prometheum and sings hymns to the Emperor. Now that's a holy weapon, and does strike me as a touch holier than a field-blessed bolt round.


Which I suppose using IoM style morality, the Grey Knights do. I mean they show others the right path of zeno killing, heretic purging and demon-impaling, and if you don't follow they beat you to death with your lungs, thus showing other sinners the importance of worshiping the God-Emperor properly. So within the context of the story they are indeed Mary Sues and you are right after all. Fascinating.

But... yeah, I hadn't thought of that. :smalleek: In a world where psychotic Knights Templar who spend fifty per cent of their lives in holy contemplation and the other fifty shoving giant spears into daemons are the ideal everyone strives for, Grey Knights are Mary Sues in every sense.

[Emperor Tippy]

I think you are seriously underestimating the Avatar crowd. If they were willing to kill and use their abilities correctly, they could easily win.

Toph just Metal Bends their armor to crush them. Or their guns. Or opens the ground up under them and closes it again, then proceeds to crush them.

Aang just bends up a tornado and lifts all the Smurfs into the air, where he proceeds to fling them several thousand feet up.

Katara blood bends the lot of them, making them shoot each other. Or just bursts their brains. Or hearts.

Not sure what Zuko can do (I haven't seen the second half of the third season so he might have learned how to create lighting, in which case he may be relevant).

Aang could also go with blades of air, super thin and sped up to extremely fast speeds to slice up the Smurfs. Katara could do the same thing with water.

Toph could make the ground the Smurfs are on all the sudden shoot up several hundred feet.

[Oslecamo]

There is a case of WH40K blessings really working.

Terminator armor. It is that hard because each suit contains a myrcroscopic fragment from the Emperor's own armor, granting it a powerfull protective aura that, togheter with the improved allowy and ceramics, allows it to sustain absurd amounts of damage.

[Illiterate Scribe]

There is a case of WH40K blessings really working.

Terminator armor. It is that hard because each suit contains a myrcroscopic fragment from the Emperor's own armor, granting it a powerfull protective aura that, togheter with the improved allowy and ceramics, allows it to sustain absurd amounts of damage.

Exactly.

There's also the example that I brought up earlier - Orks have weapons that work because they believe they do.

[Kato]

I don't know any about the space marines, but... Miroku's curse is some hard stuff to counter. If they won't grapple him in an instant, they are done for. (his death does not end the curse, as far as I know... it makes it worse, being uncontrolled then) So also the Gaang will have to think of something good, before being sucked in. Also Inu Yasha has strength beyond any human's even if Tessaiga is useless against humans. Sango's also an above average fighter.

The Gaang has little chance against the dog's team, I think... not sure about the marines... but I think if they use metal weapons Toph's got a stroke and Aang will also do his part... If Katara's able to blood bend them, it's even easier (this also might be a chance against Miroku) Sokka will... cheer them or something ^^'

[Rutee]

Exactly.

There's also the example that I brought up earlier - Orks have weapons that work because they believe they do.

There are Smurf Orks? What Orks can do isn't relevant to what Smurfs can do.

[warty goblin]

I think you are seriously underestimating the Avatar crowd. If they were willing to kill and use their abilities correctly, they could easily win.

Toph just Metal Bends their armor to crush them. Or their guns. Or opens the ground up under them and closes it again, then proceeds to crush them.
.
I'm pretty sure Space Marine armor is made out of some sort of high tech ceremic, since it's called 'bonded ceremite' IIRC. I'm not sure about their guns though.


But then... on the other hand, you take the Sword of a Thousand Righteous Exterminatuses, hand-forged by the finest Techpriests of Mars while a billion onlookers chant out canticles of loathing, quenched in the tears and virgin blood of ten Living Saints, covered in imagery of the aquila and the Omnissiah, inlaid with a thousand devotional prayers carved in the bones of past Ecclesiarchs, has angel wings, squirts blessed prometheum and sings hymns to the Emperor. Now that's a holy weapon, and does strike me as a touch holier than a field-blessed bolt round.
You forget how the ore is made from the iron extracted from the bones of a thousand Space Marines who have fallen in Glorious combat against the foul Zeno. That's the wonderful thing about WH40K, you can always be more over-the-top grimdark...

[Emperor Tippy]

I'm pretty sure Space Marine armor is made out of some sort of high tech ceremic, since it's called 'bonded ceremite' IIRC. I'm not sure about their guns though.
So? There are a dozen other ways for bending to take out the Smurfs without any real effort.

[warty goblin]

So? There are a dozen other ways for bending to take out the Smurfs without any real effort.
I'm not denying that, since I really don't know enough about Avatar in order to speculate one way or the other. I was merely pointing out a minor error in your statement, since an ability that works only on metals (implied by being called 'metal bending') wouldn't on something not metal, like bonded ceremite.

[LBO]

You forget how the ore is made from the iron extracted from the bones of a thousand Space Marines who have fallen in Glorious combat against the foul Zeno. That's the wonderful thing about WH40K, you can always be more over-the-top grimdark...
It's Xeno, but yes, that's why I love it so much. :smallbiggrin: Anyway, what do you think would be more threatening to warpspawned abominations?


I'm pretty sure Space Marine armor is made out of some sort of high tech ceremic, since it's called 'bonded ceremite' IIRC. I'm not sure about their guns though.
Surely earthbending would work better on ceramics, though...?


If they were willing to kill and use their abilities correctly, they could easily win.
So, no.

There is one thing that's being completely missed by the Avatar fanboys, and that's time-delays in moves. Avatar moves, while certainly not subject to the stupidhuge charge times of DBZ et al, do require a certain amount of limb-twirling and we-really-know-our-Eastern-martial-arts-seriously-watch-this stuff from the user. The moment the Marines consider them a threat (and if you're going to have the relatively innocent, friendly kids of Avatar going for maximum-force annihilation straight away, you better believe the Astartes are up for it), blam, hail of perfectly-aimed rocket grenades in the face. Marines are fast, and nothing's convinced me Avatar defensive bending will hold up to 40k firepower. The fight proposed would be over in seconds, and the best the Gaang could hope for, if they spent their last seconds unleashing some extreme bendingness, is mutual destruction.

[Rutee]

Ah yes, the old "Stylistic Choice equates to effectiveness" argument. Because that doesn't get old ever.

[Oslecamo]

There are Smurf Orks? What Orks can do isn't relevant to what Smurfs can do.

That joke alone made my day. Just imagine the possibilities...


WAAGHHH! THEM IN THE NAME OF THE EMPEROR!!!!-ork space marine war cry


NOBODY IS TOUGHER THAN A ORK MARINE, AND NO ORK MARINE IS TOUGHER THAN ME!-ork chaplain.


Da emperor ones go faster.-ork smart marine



For those who seek perfection there is no rest but WAGHHHHHHH!-ork librarian


Anyway, orks were engineered to be the ultimate soldiers. The problem is that their creators didn't get to finish the job before they were wiped out of the universe. So the result is the orks, who not only reproduce like rabbits, but have mysterious psychic warp independant powers wich indeed allows them to literally bend reality to their will and make a piece of scrap work as a weapon, as long as the ork has enough will power for it.

Luckily the orks didn't seem to have realized this yet. Or it's just that they don't care.

[turkishproverb]

Was just an idle musing, but I can't resist devil's advocate here: So? Prayer is prayer, holy is holy, blessings are blessings. Unless you have some sort of sliding scale of holiness. "Newly-rediscovered and improved bolt round, guaranteed fourteen hours shriving in the Cathedra Munitionapolis on Triplex Phall! Kills vampires, but leaves daemons standing!"

Arguable. It's like worshipping a Dead god in most Fantasy settings. Does nothing for you.

And the emperor IS Dead.

[Sucrose]

I think you are seriously underestimating the Avatar crowd. If they were willing to kill and use their abilities correctly, they could easily win.

Toph just Metal Bends their armor to crush them. Or their guns. Or opens the ground up under them and closes it again, then proceeds to crush them.

Aang just bends up a tornado and lifts all the Smurfs into the air, where he proceeds to fling them several thousand feet up.

Katara blood bends the lot of them, making them shoot each other. Or just bursts their brains. Or hearts.

Not sure what Zuko can do (I haven't seen the second half of the third season so he might have learned how to create lighting, in which case he may be relevant).

Aang could also go with blades of air, super thin and sped up to extremely fast speeds to slice up the Smurfs. Katara could do the same thing with water.

Toph could make the ground the Smurfs are on all the sudden shoot up several hundred feet.

With all due respect... where the hell are you getting this?

First off, bloodbending only happens on a full moon. We have no indication that it's a full moon, so no bloodbending.

We have no indication that Aang and Katara are even capable of creating the super-fine blades that you mention. Just because something is theoretically possible with absolute control of the element doesn't mean that they have aforementioned absolute control.

Toph needs to touch metal to metalbend it; it's how she sees the tiny earth fragments that she needs to be able to do it at all. She touches a marine's armor, she'll very quickly be missing a hand.

The earth rift thing is more reasonable, but I don't recall her ever using that trick in-show, so like your super-fine blades, pics or it didn't happen. Even if she did do it, who's to say that the SMurfs couldn't get out of the way?

Seriously, I'm a dirty heretic who's never read a 40K novel, and even I think what you're arguing is ridiculous.

P.S. If you change someone's moral makeup in your argument, you're no longer arguing that that given person could win, merely that someone with less scruples and the same abilities could do so.

P.P.S. The Aang tornado strategy has in-show support, but he has to run in a circle for a while to pull it off, and that's enough time for a few grenades to blow him sky-high. Also, blunt force trauma seems pretty ineffective against SMurfs.

P.^3S. Also, gonna need some support for the last Toph strategy you mentioned. I don't recall any indication that she could ever do that.

[Poison_Fish]

That joke alone made my day. Just imagine the possibilities...


WAAGHHH! THEM IN THE NAME OF THE EMPEROR!!!!-ork space marine war cry


NOBODY IS TOUGHER THAN A ORK MARINE, AND NO ORK MARINE IS TOUGHER THAN ME!-ork chaplain.


Da emperor ones go faster.-ork smart marine



For those who seek perfection there is no rest but WAGHHHHHHH!-ork librarian

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/Flib/EmperorMobiel.jpg

[Talkkno]

And the emperor IS Dead.

Then explain how does inquisitor Draco manage to communicate him in the novel Draco, or how he empowers saints and keeps watch over people such as CIAPHAS CAIN HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.

[Mr. Scaly]

Wait, I may have missed the point but...humanity doesn't even know how its own machines work anymore?!

[Rutee]

Then explain how does inquisitor Draco manage to communicate him in the novel Draco, or how he empowers saints and keeps watch over people such as CIAPHAS CAIN HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.

Insanity? We're talking about WH40k after all.

[Talkkno]

Insanity? We're talking about WH40k after all.

I'm not sure that somehow becoming insane suddenly grants you supernatural abilities without being tainted by Chaos, such as the Sepherium(?) of the Sisters of Battle. And the Tarot works threw his own divinations.

[Talkkno]

Wait, I may have missed the point but...humanity doesn't even know how its own machines work anymore?!

The whole "machine spirits" thing is just a way to for the higher ups to keep the grunts ignorant of how it really works while ensuring they can still make and repair things.

[Rutee]

I'm not sure that somehow becoming insane suddenly grants you supernatural abilities without being tainted by Chaos, such as the Sepherium(?) of the Sisters of Battle. And the Tarot works threw his own divinations.

Since you didn't pick it up, "He imagined talking to the Emperor"

We're talking about a universe where the God of Hope is Evil. How can we really be sure he spoke to the Emperor? Especially if the novels are propaganda (I don't think I get /how/, but)

[Ubiq]

The whole "machine spirits" thing is just a way to for the higher ups to keep the grunts ignorant of how it really works while ensuring they can still make and repair things.

I thought machine spirits was, at least to an extent, how the Imperium tap-danced around the issue of AI without actually admitting the existence of said computer systems. Or am I thinking of something else entirely?

[Illiterate Scribe]

There are Smurf Orks? What Orks can do isn't relevant to what Smurfs can do.

So think why it works. In a coherent system, a thing that effects X will also effect why. Orks are psychic, therefore their guns work. Tech priests address warp entities known as machine spirits, so ...

[tyckspoon]

So think why it works. In a coherent system, a thing that effects X will also effect why. Orks are psychic, therefore their guns work. Tech priests address warp entities known as machine spirits, so ...

Ok.. it works for the Orks because Orks are naturally (very) low-level psychic creatures that link to each other in a gestalt. When that focuses through any particular Ork, you get weapons that work with missing bits and vehicles that do indeed go faster when painted red.

Now, it works for human techpriests because.. human techpriests are not psychics, they aren't linked in to all the other techpriests they're working with, and when they build a gun with an important piece missing the gun fails to work? Hey, it doesn't work for humans because they're not Orks. Fancy that.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Ok.. it works for the Orks because Orks are naturally (very) low-level psychic creatures that link to each other in a gestalt. When that focuses through any particular Ork, you get weapons that work with missing bits and vehicles that do indeed go faster when painted red.

Now, it works for human techpriests because.. human techpriests are not psychics, they aren't linked in to all the other techpriests they're working with, and when they build a gun with an important piece missing the gun fails to work? Hey, it doesn't work for humans because they're not Orks. Fancy that.

All humans are psychic (except nulls). Says so repeatedly.

[Oslecamo]

All humans are psychic (except nulls). Says so repeatedly.

Humans are warp psychics, geting their powers from that demon infested dimension. Orks are a completely diferent kind of psychics, they get their powers from themselves.

They got to be engineered by one of the strongest forces of the universe. Hummies are just another evolution abomination.

[Verruckt]

Equip one SMurf with a sniper rifle, or a scoped bolter for that matter, which i think some of the SMurf 'nid hunter models come standard with. It's a featureless plain, so the marines by definition will have a clear shot as soon as the opposing parties clear the horizon. As for the 50 feet issue, you underestimate a marines ability to jump to conclusions.

Inuyasha's Group:

"Sergeant Octavian, unknown targets approaching at 5000 metres"

"Are they Emperor Fearing Humans private Julios?"

"By the manner of dress they appear to be ferals, wait, one of them has cat ears, and another appears to be a squat with a fox tail, possibly mutants or unknown xenotype"

"Well, can't let that continue living now can we, the rest are guilty by proximity. CLEANSE PURGE KILL!"

"Sir, whats a squat?"

*BANG*

"Would anyone else like to acknowledge the existence of squats?"

The Gaang:


"Sergeant Octavian, Auspex reads another group of humans approaching a few thousand meters off."

"One moment Julios, I'm still dousing this corpse in thrice blessed promethium of corpse burning."

"Sir one of them seems to be opening his mouth and expressing what the auspex reads as heretical emotion 31A: "happiness", what do you reccomend?"

"Oh dear, Tau sympathizers, get Helios to shoot them."

"Sir you shot him for heresy not five minutes ago."

"Oh, so I did, well, give me his rifle I'll handle it, and grab that giant boomerang would you I'd like to keep it as a trophy"

"Sir, what's a boomerang?"

*BANG*

"Anyone else?"


of course, this allows for zealotry related casualties, but this is to expected with SMurfs.

Edit: Just to confirm this would work, Inuyasha's homies are first dumbfounded by shippo suddenly turning into a red puff of fox demon flesh, the concerned when Inuyasha's arm comes of, and then his other arm, and then the rest of him. Now they are worried, but can't do anything really to prevent themselves being reduced to gibs as they don't understand the nature of their attackers.

As far as I know, and I have seen a fair bit of Avatar, aside from Avatar state Deus Ex Machina, none of the Gaang are any more resilient than your average person, so they are bisected and pulped just as easily as a normal human child. Sure they could defend with various bending techniques if they saw the attacks coming, but at that range they would not.

[Oslecamo]

Clearly you didn't see the first episodes of Innuyasha, where he fights a demon who uses razor sharp hairs to tear apart trees and rocks, and Innuyasha doesn't even seem to notice this attacks. Then Innuyasha eventually gets tied up by the airs, and the demon proceeds to stab him repeatedly with a katana, and Innuyasha simply refuses to stop moving. I doubt a sniper rifle will do him much harm.

Not to mention he has an excellent sense of scent wich allows him to track enemies several miles away.

Also you may be confusing the SM with Imperial guard comissars. Those are the ones who shoot anyone on their ranks who show the minimum sign of doubt. SM have been trained from little childs to be fanatical doubtless warriors. If one of them does something "heretic", it's because it has been corrupted by chaos, and the he'll probably just shoot his comander first and ask questions later.

[Solo]

Proof that Oslecamo is correct (http://cktm.smackjeeves.com/comics/122267/portable-lascannon/)

[Verruckt]

Clearly you didn't see the first episodes of Innuyasha, where he fights a demon who uses razor sharp hairs to tear apart trees and rocks, and Innuyasha doesn't even seem to notice this attacks. Then Innuyasha eventually gets tied up by the airs, and the demon proceeds to stab him repeatedly with a katana, and Innuyasha simply refuses to stop moving. I doubt a sniper rifle will do him much harm.
o contrare, this is not a sniper rifle, this is a 40k sniper rifle, and not some maglight long-las, space marines use guns that fire ultra high velocity needles carrying various mutagenic poisons and fire, yes, sniper rifles that shoot fiery poison needles, 40k is stupid and I love it.


Not to mention he has an excellent sense of scent which allows him to track enemies several miles away.
Good for him, does his scent of smell allow him to determine if a genetically engineered wargod intends to shoot him in the face? Can he smell bullets?


Also you may be confusing the SM with Imperial guard comissars. Those are the ones who shoot anyone on their ranks who show the minimum sign of doubt. SM have been trained from little childs to be fanatical doubtless warriors. If one of them does something "heretic", it's because it has been corrupted by chaos, and the he'll probably just shoot his commander first and ask questions later.

Space marines have been trained from a very young age to be fanatical doubtless warriors, and the commissariat is what? Space marines are like commissars with bigger guns and shrunken testicles, which would explain the angry marines come to think of it.

[Artemician]

o contrare, this is not a sniper rifle, this is a 40k sniper rifle, and not some maglight long-las, space marines use guns that fire ultra high velocity needles carrying various mutagenic poisons and fire,.

Incorrect. Space Marines do not use Exitus Rifles. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_of_the_Imperium_%28Warhammer_40%2C000%29#E xitus_rifle). They use Boltguns. If they want to snipe they screw a scope onto the boltgun, or use a long-las. Exitus Rifles are strictly off limits to your average marine.

And from what we've seen Boltguns to do, they don't do enough damage that Inuyasha can't regenerate from them easily. He's taken worse.


Good for him, does his scent of smell allow him to determine if a genetically engineered wargod intends to shoot him in the face? Can he smell bullets?

First thing, a Space Marine is nowhere near a Wargod. Genetically Engineered superhuman yes, but to bill a marine as a Wargod is beyond the bounds of reasonable exaggeration.

Second thing, Inuyasha won't be able to smell if a Marine wants to shoot him. He will, however, smell the marine himself. He'll also hear the shot of the Boltgun, and the lag between the shot and the bullet will be quite significant at that sort of range. A marine's chances of catching him by surprise without specialized equipment is close to none.

[konfeta]

Good for him, does his scent of smell allow him to determine if a genetically engineered wargod intends to shoot him in the face? Can he smell bullets?

No, but his anime-powered-demonic-heritage allows him to take on beings which have the firepower at least as good as that of a Warhound Titan and maneuverability of a Land Speeder. Unless the Space Marine squad is equipped with weapons that will kill him in a single volley and are NOT possible to dodge, he wins. Considering the kind of B.S. they had him survive in the anime, I doubt that something even like a titan killer weapon such as a Plasma Blastgun is guaranteed to kill him in a direct hit.

Yes, Inuyasha is that overpowered. If you want a being from Warhammer 40k to challenge him, you would get a soldier equivalent to someone like an above average Chapter Master, a Daemon Prince, or a high ranking Grey Knight.

You don't fight Inuyasha with brute force alone unless you have absurd firepower well in the excess of orbital bombadrment weaponry. You fight things like him with better plot armored characters or his Kryptonite (which, surprise, isn't nearly as effective on him because he is half human as opposed to being a full demon).

[Rutee]

All humans are psychic (except nulls). Says so repeatedly.

...No they're not. Hence why psykers are unusual.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Humans are warp psychics, geting their powers from that demon infested dimension. Orks are a completely diferent kind of psychics, they get their powers from themselves.

They got to be engineered by one of the strongest forces of the universe. Hummies are just another evolution abomination.

Er ... psychics are psychics are psychics? Given that the Old Ones engineered the orks as their weapons against the warp-hating C'tan and Necrontyr, and gave every other race that they made for that purpose

Sure, they are different - the reason for Ork possession resistance is because their emotions are much more strong, pure, and joyful than others (cf. the White Dwarf articles about Daemonhunter enemies), and so they are less prey to darkness - but there is only one 'otherworld' in WH40K.

Other example - acts of faith. The Adepta Sororitas can make their bullets cleave through Terminator Armour by, y'know, believing in the Emperor.


...No they're not. Hence why psykers are unusual.

Yes. They are.

And I quote:


Not only that, Mankind is slowly and tortuously evolving into a psychic race.


Have you ever met someone you just couldn’t ’get a feel for’ ? Someone you just didn’t somehow feel wholely
comfortable with? Someone who, for some reason you couldn’t quite pin down, made your skin crawl? Whose very presence made you nauseous? The chances are, that person was a Psychic Void.

Most people exist partly in both the normal physical world and as a spark in the psychic sea of the Warp. Psykers especially glow brightly in the Warp, and Eldar souls shine as bright as a star. Other, rare, people, seem to have no Warp presence whatsoever - a psychic void, effectively soulless. The basic human evaluation of someone you unconsciously make when you meet them reports nothing about these individuals, leading to extreme distrust and discomfort.


In fact, a significant proportion of Necromundans have abilities which they don't even consider to be psychic mutations; they may be 'lucky' at cards, for example, or very good at guessing what is on another's mind.

In other words, yes: all humans are psychic (and I see there are a few like-minded others below me, too).

[LBO]

...No they're not. Hence why psykers are unusual.
...Yes, they are. Hence the warp, which is the manifestation of the thoughts and emotions of all warp-sensitive creatures, including humans and Orks.

Warp sensitivity is near-universal (Tau having next to none). Psychic talent is just stronger warp sensitivity, a weaker barrier between the warp and reality, which gives the user's thoughts more influence over the warp, lets them use the power of the warp, but also makes them more nommable to daemons.

[warty goblin]

...No they're not. Hence why psykers are unusual.
That really doesn't follow from the evidence at all I'm afraid. Let's replace the psyker with weight lifter, and null with "paralyzed from the neck down". Now you would say that somebody paralyzed from the neck down isn't a weight lifter, and you would also say that someone who's eighty pounds overweight isn't a weightlifter, but the fat guy still lifts weight, whereas the parapaligic does not. Actual weight lifters are still special, even though everyone except parapaligics lifts weights to some degree.

Also, remember the Warp is basically a big writhing cesspool of pyschic activity, caused by pretty much everything that lives (except nulls apparently). If everyone non-null feeds the Warp, and the Warp is made of pyschic energy, it would seem to follow that everyone is at least psychic enough to feed the warp, and hence posesses some degree of psykerness.

[turkishproverb]

Then explain how does inquisitor Draco manage to communicate him in the novel Draco, or how he empowers saints and keeps watch over people such as CIAPHAS CAIN HERO OF THE IMPERIUM.

1. Draco isn't entirely stable.
2. MOst of the novels aren't in continuity
3. and saying the emporor gave them power doesn't mean that he did. 1 word: Propoganda.


Insanity? We're talking about WH40k after all.

What she said.


I'm not sure that somehow becoming insane suddenly grants you supernatural abilities without being tainted by Chaos, such as the Sepherium(?) of the Sisters of Battle. And the Tarot works threw his own divinations.


How do you know they're not tainted by chaos? SO far, we have only the imperiums wrods.

and the emporor's tarot is said to be worked through him, once again, no proof, just the imperium's claims.


Since you didn't pick it up, "He imagined talking to the Emperor"

We're talking about a universe where the God of Hope is Evil. How can we really be sure he spoke to the Emperor? Especially if the novels are propaganda (I don't think I get /how/, but)


Thank you. And once again, most of the novels are not in continuety


So think why it works. In a coherent system, a thing that effects X will also effect why. Orks are psychic, therefore their guns work. Tech priests address warp entities known as machine spirits, so ...


what they said.

[F.H. Zebedee]

I don't know where they idea of sniping comes from... If I read the intro correctly, they don't even know the other group exists until 50 feet away (Which actually helps the Avatar gang a hair, since that puts their skills more in range, compared to the other two groups, one of which can strike from a mile off, and the other one, probably about a quarter mile. I'm assuming that the characters in Avatar typically like to attack from 20-75 feet away with their ranged attacks, since that's what we typically see.)

Also of note: Inu Yasha is not something along the lines of "oh noes, holy object!" *Dracula style hissing and flesh melting* IIRC, it's more along the lines of "better at not being ignored entirely." (Urgh. I feel so cheap having to support his team, whatwith the whole killer lead and all... But yeesh, the 40k supporters really are grasping at some straws here (And the Avatar crowd is grasping at straws that are grasping at even small straws). As was said earlier, to match 40k characters against Inu Yasha, you'll need to go considerably higher on the scale.)

[Mr. Scaly]

Also of note: Inu Yasha is not something along the lines of "oh noes, holy object!" *Dracula style hissing and flesh melting* IIRC, it's more along the lines of "better at not being ignored entirely." (Urgh. I feel so cheap having to support his team, whatwith the whole killer lead and all... But yeesh, the 40k supporters really are grasping at some straws here (And the Avatar crowd is grasping at straws that are grasping at even small straws). As was said earlier, to match 40k characters against Inu Yasha, you'll need to go considerably higher on the scale.)

What he said. Blessed weapons will hurt him more but they won't kill him so easily.

[LBO]

2. MOst of the novels aren't in continuity
WRONG. The Draco novels aren't generally considered canon, because they were written in an earlier incarnation of 40k and include a lot of stuff that was subsequently retconned out (the Emperor properly communicating, Squats etc.) So Inquisition War can be discounted (as can Goto's, for being painfully crap because they take serious liberties with the rest of established canon). The rest is.


3. and saying the emporor gave them power doesn't mean that he did. 1 word: Propoganda.

How do you know they're not tainted by chaos? SO far, we have only the imperiums wrods.

and the emporor's tarot is said to be worked through him, once again, no proof, just the imperium's claims.
That would be spelled "propaganda", "Emperor's" and "words", and if you're going to discount everything that could be from a biased viewpoint, what the hell do you have left in 40k? The Emperor's influence does manifest itself consistently: Astronomican, Imperial Tarot, Living Saints. (Ciaphas Cain being his chosen is likely just in-universe memetic mutation.) Saying the Sisters' abilities are from being chaos-infested, rather than being so holy it hurts... well, sounds like you're just throwing out the stupidest crap for the sake of it, and also conflicts with the closest thing 40k really has to Word Of God.

[Rutee]

Quote 1
Evolving into a psychic race? I'll buy that, no question. But uh; It doesn't say Humanity is Psychic. It says humanity is becoming Psychic.


Quote 2
Ah yes, argument by misdirection. This supports most humans existing in, and on a subconscious level, perceiving the warp. At what point does any of that become synonymous with "Affects"?


Quote 3
'kay, Necromundans = All Terrans now? Missed that memo.


That really doesn't follow from the evidence at all I'm afraid. Let's replace the psyker with weight lifter, and null with "paralyzed from the neck down". Now you would say that somebody paralyzed from the neck down isn't a weight lifter, and you would also say that someone who's eighty pounds overweight isn't a weightlifter, but the fat guy still lifts weight, whereas the parapaligic does not. Actual weight lifters are still special, even though everyone except parapaligics lifts weights to some degree.

Your analogy doesn't fit as evidence or support.

Flow of the argument:
Tech Priests do actual magic
No, they don't, they're not magical.
Yes, they do, all people are magic.
No, they're not.
Yes, they are, Weightlifter analogy


The Weightlifter analogy might fit if ordinary humans /did/ exhibit Psyker powers on a regular basis, on a limitted scale. You're using it as support for humans exhibiting Psyker powers on a regular basis, on a limitted scale.


Warp sensitivity is near-universal (Tau having next to none). Psychic talent is just stronger warp sensitivity, a weaker barrier between the warp and reality, which gives the user's thoughts more influence over the warp, lets them use the power of the warp, but also makes them more nommable to daemons.
This is ludicrous; You're arguing most humans are psychic based on the fact that they exist in the warp. What's the support that they exist in a strong enough way to, on a regular basis, manifest powers?

[Illiterate Scribe]

Evolving into a psychic race? I'll buy that, no question. But uh; It doesn't say Humanity is Psychic. It says humanity is becoming Psychic.

And are becoming ...


Ah yes, argument by misdirection. This supports most humans existing in, and on a subconscious level, perceiving the warp. At what point does any of that become synonymous with "Affects"?

Psychic sensitivity is part of a continuum that has Alpha-level psykers at the other end.


'kay, Necromundans = All Terrans now? Missed that memo.

I'm arguing on the humans=humans=humans (oh, but that's obviously a fallacy), especially in a society that culls deviation from a norm, but allows (unknowingly) the norm to drift. Please don't confuse the issue.

Also, may I bring up this evidence again? You don't seem to have addressed it in your excellent rebuttal of our points:

Codex Witch Hunters, p18:

Divine Guidance
Guided by the will of the Emperor Himself, the shots of the faithful shatter their enemies' armour with contemptuous ease.

Could you explain to me how that isn't some sort of 'psychic/blessed gun' effect? I am eager to be enlightened.

[LBO]

'kay, Necromundans = All Terrans now? Missed that memo.
They're called "humans". This is 40k. And Necromunda is a pretty average hive world, and representative of such.


Ah yes, argument by misdirection. This supports most humans existing in, and on a subconscious level, perceiving the warp. At what point does any of that become synonymous with "Affects"?
"We move through the warp as it moves through us." (Eldar quote, but works the same way.) It's a two-way thing: what psychic creatures (ie, all sentient beings) feel and believe affects the warp, and the warp in turn has physical effects (eg daemons and chaos gods, which are manifestations of emotions, or Ork gear working because of the belief of Orks in it). Strongly warp-sensitive people, or psykers, can use the power of the warp, and in turn the warp uses them.


This is ludicrous; You're arguing most humans are psychic based on the fact that they exist in the warp. What's the support that they exist in a strong enough way to, on a regular basis, manifest powers?
"Exist in the warp" is what psychic means in 40k. It doesn't mean "manifests powers on a regular basis". Someone who does that is strongly warp sensitive. Normal humans have only the faintest warp sensitivity (and are almost universally unaware of it) whereas stronger psychics, who do manifest their powers, are singled out as odd by those people ("psyker", "witch"). Do you know anything about 40k psychics, seriously?

[Rutee]

I'm objecting to the idea that all humans, or all tech priests, are psychic. You're arguing that because /some/ of either are psychic, all are. Let's try this with something else. Not that Priest or Human and Psychic are mutually exclusive.

Your argument has effectively been "All humans are psychic capable, and all tech priests are psychic capable."

FYI: Given the sheer level of propoganda in 40k work, I wouldn't really take that as actually being the Emperor's will; He's kinda disabled right now.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Your argument has effectively been "All humans are psychic capable, and all tech priests are psychic capable."

Capable. Capable.


FYI: Given the sheer level of propoganda in 40k work, I wouldn't really take that as actually being the Emperor's will; He's kinda disabled right now.

Even better; if that's addressing the SoB power, then what exactly is shattering the heretics' protective measures? Nah ... it couldn't be interaction of non-sanctioned psykers with the Warp ...

[Emperor Tippy]

With all due respect... where the hell are you getting this?

First off, bloodbending only happens on a full moon. We have no indication that it's a full moon, so no bloodbending.
Incorrect. Bloodbending just requires really strong waterbending. As far as we know, the only time a water bender is strong enough is on the full moon. We also know that Katara is one of the strongest water benders ever, stronger than the one who taught her blood bending (the inventor of the trick). So whether or not she can blood bend when its not the full moon isn't known (he never having tried it).


We have no indication that Aang and Katara are even capable of creating the super-fine blades that you mention. Just because something is theoretically possible with absolute control of the element doesn't mean that they have aforementioned absolute control.
When they take out the machine at Ba Sing Sai. And in the episode where Katara learns to bloodbend.


Toph needs to touch metal to metalbend it; it's how she sees the tiny earth fragments that she needs to be able to do it at all. She touches a marine's armor, she'll very quickly be missing a hand.
Incorrect. She metalbends a firebender ship in at least 1 episode without being on the ship. She also makes her piece of asteroid rock float and change shape without touching it in the episode when she gets it.


The earth rift thing is more reasonable, but I don't recall her ever using that trick in-show, so like your super-fine blades, pics or it didn't happen. Even if she did do it, who's to say that the SMurfs couldn't get out of the way?

The episode where we first meet Toph, when she's fighting in the tournament.
She uses it to hit all of the baddies at once.


Seriously, I'm a dirty heretic who's never read a 40K novel, and even I think what you're arguing is ridiculous.

P.S. If you change someone's moral makeup in your argument, you're no longer arguing that that given person could win, merely that someone with less scruples and the same abilities could do so.
Seeing as how Avatar is a kids show its hard to tell what is the actual character and what is just editing to keep it a kids show.


P.P.S. The Aang tornado strategy has in-show support, but he has to run in a circle for a while to pull it off, and that's enough time for a few grenades to blow him sky-high. Also, blunt force trauma seems pretty ineffective against SMurfs.
When Appa was first taken, he starts shooting tornado's at the Sand Benders boats without running around them.


P.^3S. Also, gonna need some support for the last Toph strategy you mentioned. I don't recall any indication that she could ever do that.
When she is training Aang she keeps raising the platforms that he is standing on. When she raises walls out of the ground. When she makes the ground shoot out at an angle and hit people.

She does it fairly often in one form or another.

[LBO]

I'm objecting to the idea that all humans, or all tech priests, are psychic. You're arguing that because /some/ of either are psychic, all are. Let's try this with something else. Not that Priest or Human and Psychic are mutually exclusive.

Your argument has effectively been "All humans are psychic capable, and all tech priests are psychic capable."
Which is canon. Even Wikipedia, useless though it usually is, gets it right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaterium#Psychic_Realm). (And I'm not arguing anything about techpriests; I'm still uncertain about machine spirits.)


FYI: Given the sheer level of propoganda in 40k work, I wouldn't really take that as actually being the Emperor's will; He's kinda disabled right now.
Jury's still out on whether the manifestations of the Emperor's will are due to the Emperor actually doing it himself, or the Tarot, Living Saints etc working because trillions of slightly psychically-sensitive humans believe in them (cf: Ork tech). HAY WHAT DOES THIS REMIND YOU OF?

[Oslecamo]

Space marines have been trained from a very young age to be fanatical doubtless warriors, and the commissariat is what? Space marines are like commissars with bigger guns and shrunken testicles, which would explain the angry marines come to think of it.

Space marines are trained to treat their chapter like the most important thing in the universe below the emperor. Marines call each other brother, they obey orders whitout hesitation, and they study tactics, philosophy and linguistics in their free time so then they can shout stuff like "Today the enemy shall know fear" or "Beaware the mutant, the heretic, the alien" and "A small mind is easily filled with faith".

Comissars are trained to treat their troops like expendable scum. Not only that, once their training is over, they are sent to another side of the galaxy to lead Imperial guard troops to wich they don't have any social kind of relation. They are taught that the best way to lead is by fear, and that the best way to instill said fear is by shooting your own forces. They say stuff like "Executions will continue untill moral improves" and "You're all probably gonna die. Please try to make those deaths usefull.".


As a final note, not even WH40K goes as far as claiming that sniper rifles can tear apart limbs, as far as I remember. You must be confusing it with the last Rambo movie, where indeed weapons easily tear apart humans with single hits.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Space marines have been trained from a very young age to be fanatical doubtless warriors, and the commissariat is what? Space marines are like commissars with bigger guns and shrunken testicles, which would explain the angry marines come to think of it.

Heresy! No Angry Marine would use guns (save maybe assault cannons and plasma guns), for they are not angry enough! Think power bats with power nails in them, chain-feet, and the legendary Adamantium Sack Full of Power Doorknobs.

[Verruckt]

As a final note, not even WH40K goes as far as claiming that sniper rifles can tear apart limbs, as far as I remember. You must be confusing it with the last Rambo movie, where indeed weapons easily tear apart humans with single hits.

I certainly hope that 40k guns can de-limb people, seeing as how a .50 cal (read: heavy stubber) machine gun or sniper rifle can do it at a range of a little over 2 miles. .50 caliber weapons will kill what the hit on everything but a shot to the foot, and even then you wouldn't have a foot.

Anywho, having read the wiki a few minutes ago, Inuyasha is stupid powerful, even by 40k standards. A space marine squad? no. A space marine chapter? oh yes.

[GoC]

5 -humans tend to breed very quickly to make up for losses to natural predators.

Win!:smallbiggrin:

[Rutee]

Capable. Capable.
Produce the proof that training can make any human capable of using their psychicness, by all means. If it can't even do that, then saying "All of humanity is psychic because they theoretically can use their psychic powers with training" is even less accurate then saying "All humans are gunfighters, because theoretically anyone can learn to use a gun"



Even better; if that's addressing the SoB power, then what exactly is shattering the heretics' protective measures? Nah ... it couldn't be interaction of non-sanctioned psykers with the Warp ...

It being psychic doesn't make it /holy/.


Which is canon. Even Wikipedia, useless though it usually is, gets it right. (And I'm not arguing anything about techpriests; I'm still uncertain about machine spirits.)

I think the best part is how what you linked to says nothing about all humans being capable of psychic powers whatsoever.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Produce the proof that training can make any human capable of using their psychicness, by all means. If it can't even do that, then saying "All of humanity is psychic because they theoretically can use their psychic powers with training" is even less accurate then saying "All humans are gunfighters, because theoretically anyone can learn to use a gun"

I did. Look earlier up. All humans are capable of reading the warp, ergo psychic.


It being psychic doesn't make it /holy/.

Er ... was that what we were discussing? It's kinda given that the holy bullets fired from holy guns (which are made with holy metal on holy planets) fired by holy warriors do, themselves, have holy effects.

Also note that, in the GRIMDARK future, holy=psychic, at least as far as tangible effects are concerned.

[warty goblin]

I certainly hope that 40k guns can de-limb people, seeing as how a .50 cal (read: heavy stubber) machine gun or sniper rifle can do it at a range of a little over 2 miles. .50 caliber weapons will kill what the hit on everything but a shot to the foot, and even then you wouldn't have a foot.

Anywho, having read the wiki a few minutes ago, Inuyasha is stupid powerful, even by 40k standards. A space marine squad? no. A space marine chapter? oh yes.

The lasgun, standard issue of Imperial Guard cannon fodder and commonly known as the Flashlight due to it's lack of power relative to 'real' guns, is fully capable of shooting a limb off of a person. I'd imagine a bolter doesn't so much shoot off limbs as simply blow the target into nice little pieces, sort of an "entrance wound the size of a fist, exit wound the size of a torso" thing.

And yep, that's pretty much the conclusion I've come to as well. Once we get those nice crispy orbital lance batteries online, things are gonna be looking somewhat different, both in terms of who wins and in terms of geography.

[LBO]

Produce the proof that training can make any human capable of using their psychicness, by all means. If it can't even do that, then saying "All of humanity is psychic because they theoretically can use their psychic powers with training" is even less accurate then saying "All humans are gunfighters, because theoretically anyone can learn to use a gun"
It can't, and it can't. You really don't know anything about 40k psychics, do you? It's been said, again and again: Everyone except blanks/pariahs/untouchables (different words for the same thing) is slightly psychic. This has nothing to do with everyone having an innate ability to summon headburster lightning. Being psychic isn't some on-off thing like mutants in Marvel, it's a universal thing which is much stronger in some than others, and usually has no effect other than the tiniest change in the warp (though its absence is very disconcerting, as with untouchables).


I think the best part is how what you linked to says nothing about all humans being capable of psychic powers whatsoever.
"The mind of every sentient creature leaves an imprint within the Immaterium." That means, if you haven't been paying attention, exactly the same thing.

...Can you actually not read, or is this just ObfuscatingStupidity to annoy people now you've been comprehensively proven wrong? 40k psychic =\= "psychic powers". Psychic = warp sensitivity, any warp sensitivity. Psychic powers = stronger warp connection, resulting in "powers" of varying strength and controllability.

How many more times does this have to be said before you get it?

[Illiterate Scribe]

How many more times does this have to be said before you get it?

To be honest, I don't think that this is likely. Both sides seem fairly strongly entrenched, and every post we make is met with a wall of 'RUTEE HAET GRIMDARK', a position she's perfectly entitled to, but one that doesn't exactly seem up for debate.

Toodle-pip, I suppose, for us fanboys, since we disgust Rutee so. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4314262&postcount=44)

[Rutee]

I did. Look earlier up. All humans are capable of reading the warp, ergo psychic.

All humans can see a gun. All humans are gunfighters.

[tyckspoon]

*sigh* Ok. Virtually every sentient being in 40k is psychic. It's a very low bar for that setting; it just means they have a Warp presence. However, relatively few beings are psykers, meaning they can use the Warp or similar energy to do something. This is relevant, because originally Illiterate Scribe implied that the standard battle blessings and recitations of manufacturing and upkeep might actually improve mankind's weaponry, similar to how Orkish weaponry works better than it ought to. The difference is that Orks are an inherently psyker race; any single Ork may channel part of the Waaagh energy without conscience effort. Humans are not (yet) at that level, however, so they do not get a similar effect.

[LBO]

Or we could just ignore everything she says, as is generally a good idea with trolls.

So, back to holy weapons! How "holy" do you reckon the Wailing Doom is? On the one hand, it's wielded by the avatar of an actual god, but Eldar have never been so much for out-and-out religious dogma, or even belief-based psychicness... although Khaine is presumably their more-refined version of Khorne, embodying as he does the Eldar passion for war, and how are they creating Ynnead exactly?

[F.H. Zebedee]

And yep, that's pretty much the conclusion I've come to as well. Once we get those nice crispy orbital lance batteries online, things are gonna be looking somewhat different, both in terms of who wins and in terms of geography.

Not to be a jerk, but I was just wondering if this was a serious suggestion, or just joking. Y'know, rules of the battle and all.

[Verruckt]

Not to be a jerk, but I was just wondering if this was a serious suggestion, or just joking. Y'know, rules of the battle and all.

Not a serious suggestion, just acknowledging that the parameters of the of the battle are somewhat akin to a death match between Silver Age Supes and a litter of kittens. Inuyasha can cut mountains in half, and frankly, there's nothing that the marines can do to counter that. It's a lopsided fight, that's all I'm saying.

[warty goblin]

Not to be a jerk, but I was just wondering if this was a serious suggestion, or just joking. Y'know, rules of the battle and all.

More or less unserious. I agree according to the terms of the thread that the Astartes lose. Orbital bombardment, while outside the terms of the thread, I feel presents a rather interesting means whereby the Imperium can triumph. See cutting mountains in half is impressive, reducing them to a kilometer deep smoking crater from high orbit is more so. But then, I've always been a sucker for orbital bombardments.

Even if that doesn't work, there's always virus-bombs.

[Oslecamo]

All humans can see a gun. All humans are gunfighters.

Eeerrr, 99% of the reason why guns are the 1st choice for lethal combat weapons for the last couple centuries in real life it's probably because you can give a gun to any idiot and he'll manage to kill people with them fairly easily. So yes, all humans are gunfighters, you just need to give them the gun.

Orbital bombardment and virus bombs are very last resort weapon. Specially because orbital and virus bombs are very rare and hard to produce. The emperium will rather send some hundred thousand guardsmen to fight the threat before recuring to the heavy artilery.

Otherwise, half the battles in the WH40K story would've simply been "nuke the whole planet untill it's a blazing sphere" and don't waste human troops lifes needlsessly.

[Talkkno]

T Imperial Guard cannon fodder .

:smallannoyed: The Imperial Guard, generally speaking, is quite well trained, keep in the mind they only take the best 10% of a world's PDF for tithing. Though there are some outliers such as the penal legions. Of course, when facing alien mystics that use psionic technology, robots that use guns that strip you away atom by atom, and genetically engineered bug swarm, its no wonder no matter how trained a human, looks pretty weak in comparison. Though they still do pretty well at despite these odds, consider in Caves of Ice, the 597th Valhallan regiment managed to destroy a Ork force 3 times there size, a Gargant(Ork Titan) and several hundred Nercon warriors while possessing only Chimera APCS for armored support.

[warty goblin]

Eeerrr, 99% of the reason why guns are the 1st choice for lethal combat weapons for the last couple centuries in real life it's probably because you can give a gun to any idiot and he'll manage to kill people with them fairly easily. So yes, all humans are gunfighters, you just need to give them the gun.

Orbital bombardment and virus bombs are very last resort weapon. Specially because orbital and virus bombs are very rare and hard to produce. The emperium will rather send some hundred thousand guardsmen to fight the threat before recuring to the heavy artilery.

Otherwise, half the battles in the WH40K story would've simply been "nuke the whole planet untill it's a blazing sphere" and don't waste human troops lifes needlsessly.
Well, unless you want to, you know, have people live on the planet afterwords. The only times bombing an entire planet into ash is actually cost effective is if:
1) Scorched Earth- you can't take the planet and don't want to, the only objective is to deny your enemy use of it.
2) Over-fortified- if the cost of swarming it with troops is too high to be worth it, but the planet is too strategically valuable to remain in enemy hands.
Other than that, the way I see it, it's fundamentally more profitable to simply throw soldiers at it until it falls. Remember, humans are a highly renuable resource, but prime planets are not. Even if you take a trillion losses, in one, two hundred years tops you'll never even notice.

Now tactical orbital bombardment is another matter entirely. Sure it causes significant planetary damage, but not complete, and is thus far more likely to be cost effective than virus-bombing or other, global measures. As to being rare, the ability to drop a lance strike is about as rare as ships carrying lances. There's at least one Space Marine frigate with a lance, and I think most of the Holy Navy ships carry them, and don't they support a lot of attacks? I mean, they have to be along every time the Imperial Guard is involved, because the IG don't, IIRC, have space ships post Heresy.

edit: RE Talkkno.
Cool, I never actually knew that about the IG. Still, even well trained, they remain, in the grand scheme of things, cannon fodder.

[Sucrose]

solid argument

...Well, it appears that I don't know the show as well as I thought that I did. Well rebutted. That said, I'd appreciate more support regarding the last point; I'm well aware that she can raise platforms. I was objecting to the size of the platforms that you suggested she can make.

Also, regarding bloodbending, fair point, but again, pics or it didn't happen; since we have no indication from the show that she can bloodbend sans full moon, it's fair to assume that she cannot.

Edit: Also, if you're referring to when they were tearing apart the drill from the inside as your evidence for the blades thing, that does establish that they can destroy things with greater strength than the materials that they're using, but it was not a fast process, or one with especially long range. It was certainly not one that I'd call useful in combat with psychotic warriors with automatic 'nade launchers.

[Rutee]

Or we could just ignore everything she says, as is generally a good idea with trolls.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about IS. What with the "I'm going to keep using Psychic as WH40k defines it, period, and not bother acknowledging the 'normal' definition"


More or less unserious. I agree according to the terms of the thread that the Astartes lose. Orbital bombardment, while outside the terms of the thread, I feel presents a rather interesting means whereby the Imperium can triumph. See cutting mountains in half is impressive, reducing them to a kilometer deep smoking crater from high orbit is more so. But then, I've always been a sucker for orbital bombardments.
What a quirky definition of "win", since the Space Marine Squad still dies.

[MeklorIlavator]

Funny, I was thinking the same thing about IS. What with the "I'm going to keep using Psychic as WH40k defines it, period, and not bother acknowledging the 'normal' definition"

But if we're using it in reference to WH40K, wouldn't it make sense to, you know, use the definition used by WH40K? Or is that talking sense in a vs thread.:smallconfused:

[Rutee]

But if we're using it in reference to WH40K, wouldn't it make sense to, you know, use the definition used by WH40K? Or is that talking sense in a vs thread.:smallconfused:

No, actually, it wouldn't. It only makes sense when /everyone's/ an officionado of WH40k, or everyone at least is not only cognizant of, but is using WH40k terms. The terms draw more then people who know all participants in the thread (As is the case with the people who didn't know jack about 40k, or myself, who likes 40k but isn't up on some specifics)

[Anteros]

So, you're really going to claim that the terms that a universe uses to describe itself can't be used to describe that universe? Really? REALLY??? *aneurism*

[freerangetroll]

So, you're really going to claim that the terms that a universe uses to describe itself can't be used to describe that universe? Really? REALLY??? *aneurism*


Looks like it.

[warty goblin]

What a quirky definition of "win", since the Space Marine Squad still dies.
The Battle-Brothers do not fear to die in the name of the Emperor. Only cowards and heretics fear death, but the Astartes know no fear.

It's one of the perks of being part of something bigger than just an adventuring party see, 'cause even if you all get killed, you can still win.

[turkishproverb]

WRONG. The Draco novels aren't generally considered canon, because they were written in an earlier incarnation of 40k and include a lot of stuff that was subsequently retconned out (the Emperor properly communicating, Squats etc.) So Inquisition War can be discounted (as can Goto's, for being painfully crap because they take serious liberties with the rest of established canon). The rest is.

WRONG YOURSELF!

Most novels are out of canon, simply because they were written at the time of Draco or similar times, another chunk because they were from before management started paying as close attention to the details. Newer novels are mostly in canon, if that's what you mean


That would be spelled "propaganda", "Emperor's" and "words", and if you're going to discount everything that could be from a biased viewpoint, what the hell do you have left in 40k? The Emperor's influence does manifest itself consistently: Astronomican, Imperial Tarot, Living Saints. (Ciaphas Cain being his chosen is likely just in-universe memetic mutation.) Saying the Sisters' abilities are from being chaos-infested, rather than being so holy it hurts... well, sounds like you're just throwing out the stupidest crap for the sake of it, and also conflicts with the closest thing 40k really has to Word Of God.


Erm.

1. Frankly, I find it hard to take a post seriously when it spends this much time on spelling.

2.
a: Astronomicon: I said he was a braindead psychic beacon, and recent fluff suggests even that might not be true anymore
b: emperors tarot: How was this ever proven to relate to the emperor? Its a guy (usually a psycher himself) using a tool he believes will work and has practiced with to predict things. The fact the emperor's name is related is inconsequential.
c: Living saints was always implied to be nothing more than propaganda. basically, anytime they can get a major leader or great warrior not to betray them, they like to claim him as such. And then deny it when something about him appears odd (IE: The various near living saints that got denied when it was found too many mutants were in their following, when they were found to be on the wrong side of imperial politics, etc.)


Don't start claiming who's throwing stupid crap out. Lets recall the "Daughters of the Emperor" and their little tale. Strongly implied when their Mother Superior was taken before the golden throne, she found out something she shouldn't have.

[Rutee]

So, you're really going to claim that the terms that a universe uses to describe itself can't be used to describe that universe? Really? REALLY??? *aneurism*

Oh for Gods' sakes.

I argued humanity wasn't psychic because by the general definition, they're not. They're not capable of using psychic powers.

IS argued that humanity existed in the Warp. By the specific WH40k definition, this is accurate.

I'm going to ask you the very simple question:
"Do you see the potential for miscommunication?"


It's one of the perks of being part of something bigger than just an adventuring party see, 'cause even if you all get killed, you can still win.
I'm just going to have to refrain from snark.

[Verruckt]

I'm just going to have to refrain from snark.
I shant, as the above statement is as sure a sign of the apocalypse as Solo not showing in the next few posts with a gem of snark worth sigging. I digress, we will continue saying every human in 40k is psychic, because, (with the exceptions of nulls, blunters etc.) they are. The argument is thus, the Warp is essentially psychic unconsciousness made sentient, the eldar, orks, and humanity are what create the Immaterium. Saying that all of humanity are psychics IS NOT saying that all of humanity are head exlpodey Psykers. Note the difference in spelling and pronunciation used to signify the dissimilarity between the two. All Psykers are Psychic, not all Psychics are Psykers. Are we clear?

*Prepares for inevitable torrent of contrary bile and concentrated troll spit*

[Rutee]

I continue to find it amusing that people are willing to call "Different definitions" "trolldom".

At any rate, I got it when Tyckspoon explained it. If the universe of WH40k wants to have a low bar for what Psychic means (It is not alone in having a low bar for a common term. Though I may just be conflating 'Martial Arts and Crafts' with low bar, all things considered). I don't care. I just want to hear whether or not you can /conceive/ of a /possible/ communications mishap.

[Mr. Scaly]

Win!:smallbiggrin:

Heh. Thanks, though I was mostly being serious. In all the fictional universes out there humans are everywhere but so often are on the bottom rung of the ladder.

[Rutee]

It's because You Suck. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouSuck). Either that or Humans are special (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial)

[Solo]

I shant, as the above statement is as sure a sign of the apocalypse as Solo not showing in the next few posts with a gem of snark worth sigging.
______________________________________

[Illiterate Scribe]

I continue to find it amusing that people are willing to call "Different definitions" "trolldom".

Oh right. So people who agree with you = differing opinions, I = troll. OK.

[poleboy]

I'm starting to like these threads. Nothing to get nerds all riled up like pitting superhumans against each other :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, I'm not going to offer an opinion here, since it doesn't really matter at this point. However, is it just me or are people starting to seriously gimp Space Marines in these threads? Why is it that anime chars always get to keep their crazy portable black holes and swords that shoot fireballs out their ass or whatever, but Space Marines can't use orbital bombardment? Or call reinforcements? And you know they would. Taking themselves down with the rest most likely. They're cool like that. Or nuts.

Oops, I guess that kind of was an opinion. Go marines!

[tyckspoon]

Anyway, I'm not going to offer an opinion here, since it doesn't really matter at this point. However, is it just me or are people starting to seriously gimp Space Marines in these threads? Why is it that anime chars always get to keep their crazy portable black holes and swords that shoot fireballs out their ass or whatever, but Space Marines can't use orbital bombardment? Or call reinforcements? And you know they would. Taking themselves down with the rest most likely. They're cool like that. Or nuts.


Erm. Because it was in the terms of the original post? 4 Marines, plus normally available equipment. I suppose you could really stretch that and claim that normal equipment for a Marine squad includes the backup of the full company or even the full Chapter, but that doesn't really seem to be in the spirit of the thing.

[Anteros]

Why would they call out an orbital bombardment anyway? I'm pretty sure they don't scrap planets just cause someone with demonic tendencies killed 4 marines.

[Rutee]

Oh right. So people who agree with you = differing opinions, I = troll. OK.

Oh no. Why I consider you that has very little to do with this thread in particular. You actually have about a 50/50 record of agreeing with me or so. That doesn't change my opinion.

FYI: Different opinions was never a word I used in this thread. Different definitions, however.

[Poison_Fish]

I'm starting to like these threads. Nothing to get nerds all riled up like pitting superhumans against each other :smallbiggrin:

You mean NEEERD RAAAAGE!!

[poleboy]

Erm. Because it was in the terms of the original post? 4 Marines, plus normally available equipment. I suppose you could really stretch that and claim that normal equipment for a Marine squad includes the backup of the full company or even the full Chapter, but that doesn't really seem to be in the spirit of the thing.

Yes that was sort of my point. The OP basically said no restrictions on anime craziness, but marines can't do this and that. Looks like someone is afraid of the marines kicking too much ass!

oh no, I've re-unleashed the NERD RAGE! :smallbiggrin:

[tyckspoon]

Yes that was sort of my point. The OP basically said no restrictions on anime craziness, but marines can't do this and that. Looks like someone is afraid of the marines kicking too much ass!

oh no, I've re-unleashed the NERD RAGE! :smallbiggrin:

I'm.. not really seeing that. The terms essentially restrict every side to working with what they personally can do. It's not really a surprise that what a shounen-styled anime hero can do is a lot bigger than what Marines can do. And even with those restrictions there's some high cheese that hasn't been invoked yet for the Marines. It'd be unusual, but 'normally available equipment' could mean (just within the bounds of the Marine Codex armory) that they're all tooled up with a power weapon or powerfist, a plasma pistol, artificer armor, an Iron Halo, cybernetic bits.. that's not counting the archaeotech and other highly restricted gear that they might get be able to requisition or have around in fluff, like the vortex grenades that have been mentioned a couple of times.

[Verruckt]

Yeah, marines often need to be restricted in these threads because of what happens when you pull the stops out: Primarchs.

If no there are no restrictions on marines thread goes as follows: Inuyasha and co. meet up with the gaang, and finding themselves to be directed at similar viewer demographics decide to team up. Then Sanguinus shows up and proceeds to kill them all violently with his great big + 10 power **** of ****-ness and burns the bodies with ****ing flaming promethium from his massive Primarch ****. And yes, it is neccessary to be that crude when speaking on the subject because Primarchs can make SS4 Goku piss himself.

[Rutee]

Alright, now Primarchs are really freaking powerful, and I have little doubt that they would dismantle Inuyasha;

But come on. Goku? DBZ enemies reached planet breaking capability by the second Arc. The third arc BBEG was orders of magnitude above that. And then there's like, 3 arcs of endless escalation after that.

[poleboy]

Alright, now Primarchs are really freaking powerful, and I have little doubt that they would dismantle Inuyasha;

But come on. Goku? DBZ enemies reached planet breaking capability by the second Arc. The third arc BBEG was orders of magnitude above that. And then there's like, 3 arcs of endless escalation after that.

You can't really argue against DBZ. Fortunately, you can't really argue for it either, since it rarely bothers to explain how anything works other than "rargh, I'm stronger than you!"

[Verruckt]

alright true, ss4 is going a little far, but plain old radditz killing goku is cake. This is an argument for another thread entirely


A THREAD THAT SHOULD NEVER, EVER, EVER. BE MADE.

[Oslecamo]

Alright, now Primarchs are really freaking powerful, and I have little doubt that they would dismantle Inuyasha;

But come on. Goku? DBZ enemies reached planet breaking capability by the second Arc. The third arc BBEG was orders of magnitude above that. And then there's like, 3 arcs of endless escalation after that.

DBZ planets are made of highly instable materials that can be easily destroyed by pretty much anything. Please don't compare them with materials from other fictional setings.

Rocks are more fragile than simple clothes, and if you throw commoners against mountains it's the mountains wich shatters and not the commoners who goes splat.

The moon can be destroyed by a energy ball, but when said energy ball is shot against a living oponent, be it the hero or a comoner, it won't obliterate him from existance. Shoot a hole trough him maybe, but not completely disintrigate.

[Rutee]

You can't really argue against DBZ. Fortunately, you can't really argue for it either, since it rarely bothers to explain how anything works other than "rargh, I'm stronger than you!"

Well, there's some vague things to work on. I know I saw at some point a listing of power levels for characters. And we know for a fact that at the end of arc 2, Vegeta is fully capable of breaking an earth-sized planetoid with raw energy. I think (But am hardly positive) that breaking a world is the sole province of Alpha+ level Psykers, and is almost certainly outside what the Primarchs can accomplish with brute force alone.

[poleboy]

Like Oslecamo stated, the actual rules of physics of the DBZ universe are not only radically different from what we perceive, they are also highly inconsistent.

[Rutee]

If you two wanna drive yourselves insane by rigorously applying physics to a setting that flatly doesn't give a damn, you go ahead, but I'll be over here. Probably playing Dominions or writing. You should probably just go ahead and take those kinds of things at the higher of two face values; That's pretty much what's intended in the show.

[poleboy]

If you two wanna drive yourselves insane by rigorously applying physics to a setting that flatly doesn't give a damn, you go ahead, but I'll be over here. Probably playing Dominions or writing. You should probably just go ahead and take those kinds of things at the higher of two face values; That's pretty much what's intended in the show.

Yay, someone took the moral high ground. I win! :smallbiggrin:

[Rutee]

These threads seem best summarized in a line from the Venture Bros.

"Come on! Lizzie Borden would totally beat Anne Frank in a fist fight!"

[Oslecamo]

These threads seem best summarized in a line from the Venture Bros.

"Come on! Lizzie Borden would totally beat Anne Frank in a fist fight!"

Everybody knows Anne Franck's power is OVER 9000!:smalltongue:

She would totally wipe out the whole exalted universe with an hand tied at her back by adamntium chains cursed from the chaos gods and forged with the bloods of a thousand heretics and sprinkled with Horus baby tooth mushed.

Lizzie Born on the other hand gets kicked by mooks all day long.

[Solo]

If you two wanna drive yourselves insane by rigorously applying physics to a setting that flatly doesn't give a damn, you go ahead, but I'll be over here. Probably playing Dominions or writing.
What amuses me is that you think you have the better end of that deal.:smalltongue:

[Rutee]

I'm making a nation of Penguins for Dominions. And the Lord of the Cosmos from Katamari Damacy as a Pretender. I genuinely believe myself to have the better deal, because penguins make everything awesome-r :smalltongue:

Edit: Why do none of the settings in this versus thread have penguins? There's a serious lack of penguin here.

[Oslecamo]

Fine. Once Innuyasha wipes everybody else, Etna and her prinnies appear to challenge him for the place of that world's demon overlord...

IN A GAME OF BASEBALL!:smallbiggrin:

[LBO]

Most novels are out of canon, simply because they were written at the time of Draco or similar times, another chunk because they were from before management started paying as close attention to the details. Newer novels are mostly in canon, if that's what you mean

Draco is non-canon because it was written when GW game canon was substantially different, with Squats, Emperor communicating etc. Everything written since Draco is canonically in the 3rd-edition+ 40k verse, with only very minor variation in names and technical details from now. And there was nothing written at the same time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Library), except Space Hulk, which nobody I've met has ever read anyway. Get your facts right, you look like an idiot.

[QUOTE]1. Frankly, I find it hard to take a post seriously when it spends this much time on spelling.
...My mistake, you are an idiot.


b: emperors tarot: How was this ever proven to relate to the emperor? Its a guy (usually a psycher himself) using a tool he believes will work and has practiced with to predict things. The fact the emperor's name is related is inconsequential.
That's much older canon and may have actually been retconned out, not sure, but the Tarot was part of how the Emperor communicated and influenced the Imperium beyond the grave. The only proof I can find quickly is in the very first Ork sourcebook, which is Rogue-Traderly uncanon.


c: Living saints was always implied to be nothing more than propaganda.
Where the hell is this implied? You might notice the way that they canonically exist in codexes and novels, have a role in the game complete with supernatural powers and everything? You have a damn odd idea of propaganda. I guess Grey Knights are propaganda, because nobody could be that overpowered. The Eldar Avatar is just propaganda, too. And Daemons. Hell, the whole Orkish race is obviously a propaganda boogy-monster to scare Imperial kids, since codexes, fiction and everything are to be discounted.


Don't start claiming who's throwing stupid crap out.
When the glass slipper fits... perfectly...

[Poison_Fish]

Everybody knows Anne Franck's power is OVER 9000!:smalltongue:

She would totally wipe out the whole exalted universe with an hand tied at her back by adamntium chains cursed from the chaos gods and forged with the bloods of a thousand heretics and sprinkled with Horus baby tooth mushed.

Lizzie Born on the other hand gets kicked by mooks all day long.

Psh, adamntium!? Dude, she's using Gundanium, forged by a wizard.

[Drascin]

Fine. Once Innuyasha wipes everybody else, Etna and her prinnies appear to challenge him for the place of that world's demon overlord...

IN A GAME OF BASEBALL!:smallbiggrin:

Good thing you mentioned baseball, or I'd have to say it would be not contest again, only this time it's Inuyasha who gets splattered :smalltongue:.

But, as of baseball... I dunno, isn't Inuyasha's gang a bit short on people to make an actual full team? :smallbiggrin:

[Oslecamo]

Good thing you mentioned baseball, or I'd have to say it would be not contest again, only this time it's Inuyasha who gets splattered :smalltongue:.

But, as of baseball... I dunno, isn't Inuyasha's gang a bit short on people to make an actual full team? :smallbiggrin:

Well, that's for what Kagome's family and all the secondary characters are. Granted, they're cannon fodder, but prinnies aren't much better than that, being human souls locked inside pinguin suits bursting with explosives and sharp things.

[Mr. Scaly]

It's because You Suck. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouSuck). Either that or Humans are special (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HumansAreSpecial)

So...humans are the cannon fodder of the multiverse but possess nigh unstoppable potential for awesomeness?

[Rutee]

So...humans are the cannon fodder of the multiverse but possess nigh unstoppable potential for awesomeness?

Well, it's not usually both at the same time. Usually.

[Mr. Scaly]

Well, it's not usually both at the same time. Usually.

Hmm...maybe it is. Look at the Imperium of Man, for instance.

[Rutee]

Hence the qualifier "Usually".

[turkishproverb]

Draco is non-canon because it was written when GW game canon was substantially different, with Squats, Emperor communicating etc. Everything written since Draco is canonically in the 3rd-edition+ 40k verse, with only very minor variation in names and technical details from now. And there was nothing written at the same time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Library), except Space Hulk, which nobody I've met has ever read anyway. Get your facts right, you look like an idiot.



Wikipedia. Yea, I'm not touching that. I will say, however, that GW has stated many times that when the novels repeatedly contradict the other fluff (such as in Farseer or Harliaquin) the fluff is right.


...My mistake, you are an idiot.


Insult noted. ad-hominim noted.


That's much older canon and may have actually been retconned out, not sure, but the Tarot was part of how the Emperor communicated and influenced the Imperium beyond the grave. The only proof I can find quickly is in the very first Ork sourcebook, which is Rogue-Traderly uncanon.

So, your brining up things you admit are SEVERELY out of date then?


Lord, next thing I know Your going to be bringing up the Starchild.




Where the hell is this implied? You might notice the way that they canonically exist in codexes and novels, have a role in the game complete with supernatural powers and everything? You have a damn odd idea of propaganda. I guess Grey Knights are propaganda, because nobody could be that overpowered. The Eldar Avatar is just propaganda, too. And Daemons. Hell, the whole Orkish race is obviously a propaganda boogy-monster to scare Imperial kids, since codexes, fiction and everything are to be discounted.

Yea, you have testimony by Imperials who claim he is "Possessed of the emperor" etc, but mysteriously being "Uncredited" as soon as inconvenient.

Little from inside the guys heads that suggest they're what you say.


The only comparisons I can make to the rest of your comments in this paragraph would bring up comparisons to political stuff.

Not happening.





When the glass slipper fits... perfectly...

You tell someone it belongs to the other guy?

[Zeful]

Just to point something out: Inuyasha's blood seal. If the Tetsusaiga is broken or leaves his direct possession after transforming into the Fang, his demon blood takes control of his body turning him into a far more powerful killing machine. He's faster, stronger and has even keener senses.

Also Inuyasha has 3 (5 really but a couple are situational) separate ranged attacks. Iron Reaver Soul-stealer, Claws of blood, and the Wind Scar. The Wind Scar is the strongest, digging several deep trenches in the earth at first, but later is capable of nearly destroying mountains (as far as I know).

I know nothing of the other universes.

[Verruckt]

Just to point something out: Inuyasha's blood seal. If the Tetsusaiga is broken or leaves his direct possession after transforming into the Fang, his demon blood takes control of his body turning him into a far more powerful killing machine. He's faster, stronger and has even keener senses.

Also Inuyasha has 3 (5 really but a couple are situational) separate ranged attacks. Iron Reaver Soul-stealer, Claws of blood, and the Wind Scar. The Wind Scar is the strongest, digging several deep trenches in the earth at first, but later is capable of nearly destroying mountains (as far as I know).

I know nothing of the other universes.

Avatar is a curiously well drawn American Shonen whose characters have pretty good command of the elements, (though with the exception of Aang, not all at once) And thats about that.

I do not have the time or energy to explain 40k. Suffice to say, find Grim/Dark and torture its parents to death right in front of it, then force it to rape their corpses, and your starting to get there as far as tone goes.

[Mr. Scaly]

Hence the qualifier "Usually".

I think the two tropes may combine more often than not actually.