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Anteros
2008-05-16, 11:14 PM
This keeps coming up and derailing other Vs. threads, so I thought I would just give it its own thread.

Scenario: Goku, in his infinite stupidity has taken the dragonballs and used them to wish for a challenging opponent. As a result of this, the DBZ's version of earth has been transported into the Wh40k universe right in the middle of a hotly contested territory between the different major factions, each of whom would like to claim the earth as a strategic planet, or at the very least destroy it

So, my question to you. Does the DBZ planet earth have the ability to protect their beloved home from invaders? Or does WH40k overrun the DBZ Earth like it does everything else?

PS. I know people are going to moan that I made this, but I am tired of it derailing other threads.

Solo
2008-05-16, 11:23 PM
Depends. We don't know how Warp and psychic powers interact with Ki-powers.

freerangetroll
2008-05-16, 11:24 PM
All of 40k?

IG, SMurfs, 'nids, Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Chaos, Tau and the orks?

Goku or whatever the hell his name is just jumps in a space capsule, trains for a couple of episodes, yells himmy hammi kaaa for three or four more episodes and destroys everything.

So 40k wins, because mutual destruction is a moral victory.

chiasaur11
2008-05-16, 11:29 PM
All of 40k?

IG, SMurfs, 'nids, Necrons, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Chaos, Tau and the orcs?

Goku or whatever the hell his name is just jumps in a space capsule, trains for a couple of episodes, yells himmy hammi kaaa for three or four more episodes and destroys everything.

So 40k wins, because mutual destruction is a moral victory.

Or at least an Ork victory.

Verruckt
2008-05-17, 12:18 AM
Damn you, what have you done? I see this versus thread, and beyond it, TZEENCH IS WEEPING!

Anteros
2008-05-17, 12:24 AM
Yes, all of WH40k. And Goku very specifically won't use attacks that blow up the Earth so that's no good.

Myshlaevsky
2008-05-17, 12:53 AM
Dragonball Z wins. The power level is ridiculously above that of the 40K universe.

Coincidentally, I'm seeing a theme here...

konfeta
2008-05-17, 01:14 AM
WH40k wins. How? The C'Tan did it.

That's GW's answer to everything. The motherflippin' C'Tan did it.

Talkkno
2008-05-17, 01:18 AM
During the Emperor's fatal battle with Horus, he was said to unleashed a beam of physic energy "More focused then a laser, more powerful then a supernova." Or something like that to kill Horus. And the keep the mind that the Storms of Emperor's wrath is hundreds of light years in length and depth, that destroys anything that comes into contact with it.

Anteros
2008-05-17, 01:42 AM
More powerful than a super-nova is pretty standard fare for DBZ. I think the only real question here is whether the DBZ crew can stop the sheer resources of WH40k rather than "can anyone in WH40k defeat the DBZ crew."

Dervag
2008-05-17, 01:54 AM
I do not think there are any individual entities of power capable of matching top-tier DBZ characters. Warhammer characters typically have to rely on external weaponry to destroy planets; Goku does not (if he wanted to destroy a planet, anyway).

Two issues others have noted dominate the question:
1)WH40k does nasty things to psychics, especially psychics who don't know about the perils of the Warp. Is DBZ ki a form of psychic power that the Chaos Gods will try to exploit?

2)WH40k contains multiple nigh-unlimited armies. They can build things faster than Goku can kill them, simply because it takes time for Goku to realize he needs to kill something.

However, if he has access to the Dragonballs he might just do something drastic like wish the Emperor back to life simply because he thinks it's appropriate. He's a nice guy- he might think he was doing the Imperium a favor.

That said, it would be interesting to see how long it would take a DBZ character to make a Space Marine cry.

freerangetroll
2008-05-17, 01:58 AM
On a more serious note. Are we going by the DBZ universes penchant for inanely long build ups involving the characters super moves? Or are the able to fire mountain destroying gouts of pure energy in a rather reflexive manner?

If the former all thats really needed is a 'nid swarm per DBZ hero, just to keep them in close combat and unable to "charge up", while Imperial and Xenos capitol ships position themselves and start orbital bombardments.

If the latter, I honestly don't see how anything aside from an Alpha+++ psyker or some of the more deity like inhabitants of the 40K universe can survive an attack from much less defeat the DBZ people.

Deadmeat.GW
2008-05-17, 02:35 AM
I would actually go with the DBZ, the powerlevels are just beyound belief.

If you don't mind controll them...hum...well, if they are not mind controlled they would keep killing everything send against them from the 40K universe.

Short of the Emperor (in good health), the chaos Gods or some of the Ctan there is nothing in the same level for destructive power and some of these may have the destructive power but not anywhere near the physical resilience the DBZ characters start exhibiting.

Rutee
2008-05-17, 02:38 AM
Charge times are typically taken as a stylistic element more then anything.



Two issues others have noted dominate the question:
1)WH40k does nasty things to psychics, especially psychics who don't know about the perils of the Warp. Is DBZ ki a form of psychic power that the Chaos Gods will try to exploit?

No, chi is life energy. A Dragonball character is no more a psychic then any other super martial artist in other settings. This may or may not change their Warp Presence, which is the relevant thing, I think. Warp Presence represents what, on a metaphysic level?

Mind, I /think/ at least one person is genuinely a psychic, but this is independent of any combat ability they possess.



2)WH40k contains multiple nigh-unlimited armies. They can build things faster than Goku can kill them, simply because it takes time for Goku to realize he needs to kill something.
Yeah, but I don't think the unlimitted armies can actually scratch him, as he's fast and tough. Given the vagaries that /most/ of the factions have in interstellar travel (I'm pretty sure only the Eldar have reliable, quick interstellar travel), they can't easily try to wear him into fatigue with multiple fleets, because they can arrive at vastly different times (There's no evidence that this is possible for an arbitrarily large number of mooks, but there's no evidence that it's not either) The question is whether their upper characters can A: Hurt him, and B: whether they can be massed in enough number to do anything.

LBO
2008-05-17, 02:54 AM
I'm staying out of this one, because I love 40k and totally despise DBZ, and prefer not to have them sharing the same space in my head. Ew.

Icewalker
2008-05-17, 03:05 AM
I know very little about WH40K, but I watched a lot of DBZ, and to my understanding, they are screwed. I mean, they can blow stuff up, and maybe, at their best times, function with attacks which result in ridiculous, but nonetheless quite limited explosions.

One of the many bombs from one of the many ships from one of the many fleets from one of the many smaller groups of one of the many overall factions of WH40K can wipe out all life on a planet.

Rutee
2008-05-17, 03:17 AM
One of the many bombs from one of the many ships from one of the many fleets from one of the many smaller groups of one of the many overall factions of WH40K can wipe out all life on a planet.

Yeah, WH40k can wipe out the life on the surface of a planet.

Vegeta can destroy the planet. A virus bomb relies on the virus taking (Unlikely; Martial Artists don't catch colds :smalltongue:), and when that fails, you have just pissed off the entire cast of the show. In a serious sense, I'm genuinely unsure if a Virus bomb that hits, works, but this comes back to a major problem in taking the DBZ Cast: Stupidly fast reaction time and speed, and the ability to blow **** up. A virus bomb is, remember.. a projectile.

Incidentally, something people haven't noted; I forget when this was exactly, but I think it was after the Cell Saga? Goku and King Kai or whatever his name was are dead, and in something like heaven, and there's a bootload of almost as stupidly powerful guys /there/ too? That's part of the setting. :P

Verruckt
2008-05-17, 03:22 AM
http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2008-04/37625567.jpg
No, NO! This **** stops now, your Emperor commands it!

Solo
2008-05-17, 03:43 AM
http://img.ffffound.com/static-data/assets/6/1b1318ebbb1ad7f7a160635118b37ba9eea69eae_m.gif


That is all.

Tengu
2008-05-17, 03:49 AM
(Unlikely; Martial Artists don't catch colds :smalltongue:)

I must disagree with that. Z warriors' Achilles Heel were always things that attacked them with something other than kinetic force - mind control, petrification, diseases.

Rutee
2008-05-17, 04:07 AM
Hence the :smalltongue:

Though I don't actually remember anyone using, well, any of the above, I was smirking since that's like saying Mussolini never caught a cold.

Revlid
2008-05-17, 04:17 AM
These are less the "common cold" style of viruses, and more the kind that will melt you into a puddle of steaming goo.

konfeta
2008-05-17, 04:19 AM
More accurately, these are the kind of viruses that make Morbo go:

VIRUSES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!!

Rutee
2008-05-17, 04:21 AM
I'm sure. See my notes on the delivery system for the more relevant refutation; You're talking about something that can be destroyed before it's relevant.

^: I've said that once, yeah, but mostly when I was asking for the hell of it.

Bryn
2008-05-17, 04:43 AM
More accurately, these are the kind of viruses that make Morbo go:

VIRUSES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!!

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool


I find it incredibly amusing to imagine that the DBZ characters are merely normal humans who train hard...

Apart from that, I very much agree with Solo. That can really be the only answer to this thread.

Oslecamo
2008-05-17, 05:02 AM
The WH40K has a major advantage over DBZ. They're not afraid to play dirty.

This is, all the major villains in DBZ were actually pretty honest. They even bothered to claim when they were going to attack so the good guys could prepare before hand.

Also it's refered several times that even if Goku is uber powerfull, he still needs to breath fresh air.

Wh40K probably can't win on brute force, but they have several other tactics besides them. It's not their fault 99% of the DBZ villains think the only way to kill someone is attacking them head on.

Rutee
2008-05-17, 06:31 AM
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool
Be careful with that; A lotta fans seem to like denying that WH40k operates on anything remotely similar :P

LBO
2008-05-17, 06:40 AM
Hey, it's half Rule Of Cool, half Refuge In Audacity. Cause seriously, 40k is actually among the vilest, most awful, horrific, blasphemous settings imaginable, and the only reason the Moral Guardians aren't trying to tear it up is half because it's so silly and half because they don't know where to begin.

(Did anyone else who grew up with 40k find themselves kind of desensitised to genocide and torture?)

Verruckt
2008-05-17, 06:56 AM
(Did anyone else who grew up with 40k find themselves kind of desensitised to genocide and torture?)

*raises hand cheerfully*

since we need a concrete tactic, I say the Imperium sees one guy knock out a fleet with a ball of PURE ENERGY that it took him two 30 minute installments to create, and say wow, i want one of those. They pull together a cabal of alphas, shatter goku's mind and it doesn't really matter if he's still useful after that, they've won.

Or they can go with the old imperial standard tactic, throw billions of penal legionnaires at him until one gets through and punches him, and repeat until you've softened his chest enough for a commissar to walk up and put a bolt shell through his heart.

Casualty Report:
43 billion Penal Legionnaires (may they find glory in their sacrifice) from the 158th Angrynios Legio (penitent in thy name), armed with combat stimulants, pants, and anything sharp they might find on the way lasguns.

1 Unarmed Mutant Male Humanoid.

Victory: THE IMPERIUM OF MAN

Xuincherguixe
2008-05-17, 06:58 AM
Goku can take hits that threaten to destroy planets. I think a Bolter isn't going to cut it.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 07:00 AM
Hey, it's half Rule Of Cool, half Refuge In Audacity. Cause seriously, 40k is actually among the vilest, most awful, horrific, blasphemous settings imaginable, and the only reason the Moral Guardians aren't trying to tear it up is half because it's so silly and half because they don't know where to begin.

That, and the fact that it doesn't apologise for any of it; you don't have attempts to romanticise anyone (with the possible exception of a certain HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, but he's kind of a jerk anyway), or any of the violence - thus, you don't get the same sort of attempted seductive quality seen in other potential moral guardian tactics;

-Chaos is evil, wants to kill your soul, and yet is ultimately unsatisfactory.
-The Tau take the worst bits from Brave New World and 1984, and have mecha.
-The Eldar are racist bigots.
-The Dark Eldar are desperate, depraved
-The Orks kill everything they see (and even then, it looks like they are in for some daubing with the evil brush)
-The Tyranids are from HR Geiger.
-The Imperium are fascist theocrats, who are great fans of the redemptive value of torture.

There's no 'attractive anti-hero' there.


(Did anyone else who grew up with 40k find themselves kind of desensitised to genocide and torture?)

Not really; I grew up with it, and am now studying International Relations with a particular focus on human rights law, so it can't be all bad. :smallwink:

Verruckt
2008-05-17, 07:06 AM
well, if a normal human on space PCP hits him in the left pec, and you multiply that guy by 43 billion, the bolter shell might scratch him, hell, make it a kraken round and he might bleed.
BRING IN MORE PENAL LEGIONNAIRES, IF IT BLEEDS, WE CAN KILL IT!

Rutee
2008-05-17, 07:23 AM
That, and the fact that it doesn't apologise for any of it; you don't have attempts to romanticise anyone (with the possible exception of a certain HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, but he's kind of a jerk anyway), or any of the violence - thus, you don't get the same sort of attempted seductive quality seen in other potential moral guardian tactics;

I was unaware that this was sufficient to stop them. Ya sure it's not just that WH40k is on the periphery of the public consciousness?

Though that didn't stop them from going after Shin Megami Tensei, so it's entirely probable that I'm wrong.

Cubey
2008-05-17, 07:32 AM
Just a few numbers to consider:
Goku was unkillable by bullets at the start of Dragonball (not even DBZ yet), but he felt them and was hurt - not seriously though. He had a power level of roughly ~100 back then.
Radditz was immune to hand-held bullet weapons with a power level of 1200.
Nappa and Vegeta were unphased by tank shells and fighter missiles fired at them. Vegeta also could casually destroy planets without exerting himself much. Power levels: 4000 and 18000 respectively.

Goku's power level at the end of DBZ exceeds 350 MILLION.

Have fun with that!

EDIT: Just a clarification - except for plot-related fiat, your speed, offensive abilities and general toughness are proportional to your power level. Normal humans have it at about 5. Strongest plausible humans shouldn't exceed 150.

Verruckt
2008-05-17, 07:40 AM
Just a few numbers to consider:
Goku was unkillable by bullets at the start of Dragonball (not even DBZ yet), but he felt them and was hurt - not seriously though. He had a power level of roughly ~100 back then.
Radditz was immune to hand-held bullet weapons with a power level of 1200.
Nappa and Vegeta were unphased by tank shells and fighter missiles fired at them. Vegeta also could casually destroy planets without exerting himself much. Power levels: 4000 and 18000 respectively.

Goku's power level at the end of DBZ exceeds 350 MILLION.

Have fun with that!

EDIT: Just a clarification - except for plot-related fiat, your speed, offensive abilities and general toughness are proportional to your power level. Normal humans have it at about 5. Strongest plausible humans shouldn't exceed 150.

Wow, did not know that, or at least in that succinct of a form, we might actually have to empty a couple hives at this guy, no matter. "Issue a report to the populace of Angrion, they are to start reproducing with greater rapidity and prepare for conscription, yes, even the infants. We'll get this flying pointy haired bastard yet!"

Solo
2008-05-17, 07:42 AM
Greater reproduction, you say? I shall ask my girlfriend for permission to personally assist in this matter.

For the Emperor, of course.

Verruckt
2008-05-17, 07:44 AM
The Imperium of Man: We'll throw babies at you (TM)

Tengu
2008-05-17, 07:50 AM
I'm sure that Baby Grenades are more effective as weapons than your standard issue lasguns. Which isn't saying much.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 07:55 AM
I was unaware that this was sufficient to stop them. Ya sure it's not just that WH40k is on the periphery of the public consciousness?

Though that didn't stop them from going after Shin Megami Tensei, so it's entirely probable that I'm wrong.

There was indeed a potential for them to get caught up after the RAGE-storm following Mazes and Monsters, but they weathered it, being sufficiently different from D&D by that point.

Xuincherguixe
2008-05-17, 07:56 AM
Yeah. The Imperial Guard should be ordered to start ripping off their limbs, and throwing those at Goku.

Lord_Asmodeus
2008-05-17, 08:02 AM
I've seen this done a thousand times and it always ends the same. Goodbye 40k, it was nice knowing you, sadly you faced off against a universe wherein people regularly gain the ability to destroy whole worlds (Vegeta could do it from the first time we saw him, and he wasn't even CLOSE to Super Saiyan)

Cubey
2008-05-17, 08:06 AM
Wow, did not know that, or at least in that succinct of a form, we might actually have to empty a couple hives at this guy, no matter. "Issue a report to the populace of Angrion, they are to start reproducing with greater rapidity and prepare for conscription, yes, even the infants. We'll get this flying pointy haired bastard yet!"

Won't work. Here's some basic math: Nappa's BP (Battle Power) is 4000. Goku in SSJ 3 form had a BP of, if I recall correctly, 450.000.000. Let's make that 400.000.000 for easier calculations. That's 100 000 times more. Nappa could take a tank shell head on and not even be scratched - it did as much to him as a single microbe in the air does to a normal human being. Goku could take head on a missile one hundred thousand times more powerful than a tank shell and not sustain any damage, any at all. And that's not even his limit - it's deep within comfort zone. One such projectile or one million, doesn't matter - zero times million is still zero.
That already rules out most of stuff Imperium, or hell, anything the WH 40K universe can throw at them as viable threat. At least in terms of conventional warfare, but we'll talk about this later. And while it's true that Goku has moral qualms about killing humans and other silly notions like that, some of his "friends" do not - Piccolo is far more pragmatic, and Vegeta doesn't even need an excuse to kill people. These guys are weaker than Goku, but not weak enough to make a difference when comparing their power to that of a lasgun, bolter or... a nuclear bomb.

Now you're probably thinking DBZ is stupidly overpowered - bingo! It is. But there are ways for WH 40K to mess up with Goku's team a bit.

Mind control, telepathy and mind screws in general are a good way to put a little mayhem into the DBZ ranks - the Z Warriors don't seem particularly immune to them. Viruses and other diseases seem to affect them as well. And, last but not the least, if they have DBGT's version of Trunks then they lose, because he fails. Even when compared to some other DB characters, and that's saying something.

Haruspex
2008-05-17, 08:15 AM
Then the 40k side will just bomb the planet into pieces, ignoring Goku and co. By the OP, that would be a victory since the earth was not successfully defended. As far as I know Saiyans and normal humans are not vacuum-capable (not sure about Namekians). If the warships stay far enough away they should be able to keep safe.

If that doesn't work, send daemons in. Since Goku is seen to be vulnerable to heart disease, Nurgle powers should work on him and the others.

Rutee
2008-05-17, 08:17 AM
On the Air note, they couldn't do it with a ship, but perhaps a Psykker of sufficiently high power (There are like a dozen Alpha+s, right? One should be plenty) could - oh, right, no, turning up the heat of the planet to a point where the atmosphere rushes off is no less avoidable then destruction of the planet.

And I don't think Saiyans need any equipment to survive in space, for that matter. Nor do many baddies (I know Frieza was in his little chair out in the vacuum when he nuked the Saiyan homeworld..)

Though the OP corrects me, it does indeed restrict the DBZ universe to its good guys.


Then the 40k side will just bomb the planet into pieces, ignoring Goku and co. By the OP, that would be a victory since the earth was not successfully defended. As far as I know Saiyans and normal humans are not vacuum-capable (not sure about Namekians). If the warships stay far enough away they should be able to keep safe.


You can not bomb the planet while the Z Fighters still live. It doesn't work; They're too fast, and more then powerful enough to deflect the attacks of the equipment in question. IIRC, the specials of the second arc did as much damage as a Lance Battery. If not by then, then certainly by the Frieza Arc.

Might be able to get an Alpha+ Psyker to blow it up though, since they can't feasibly interdict a psychic attack.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 08:26 AM
Might be able to get an Alpha+ Psyker to blow it up though, since they can't feasibly interdict a psychic attack.

This might work, actually; the main reason that Alpha Plus psykers aren't deployed as battlefield weapons is that they are massive magnets for daemonic possession, and so are a little risky. I can certainly see, however, a particularly ruthless Radical Malleus Inquisitor sending the psyker down with that very purpose in mind; pop goes their head, and out comes a small Eye of Terror on Earth.

The only problem then is that they would have to deal with a Khorn-possessed Goku.
:smalleek:

Rutee
2008-05-17, 08:30 AM
Attempting to demonically possess them may or may not work. There's the issue that the demons can still be punched, if there's any transparency between Chi and Warp Presence (I doubt it), and that they're not really OM NOM NOM material for demons if there isn't such transparency.

Haruspex
2008-05-17, 08:44 AM
During the first battle against Frieza on Namek one of the major plot points was that Goku couldn't survive in space while Frieza could. Hence Frieza's idea to blow up Namek and presumably leave Goku dead. By then Frieza knew that Goku was a Saiyan, so from that we can assume that Saiyans are not space-breathers. At least, as far as I can tell.

Can the Z crew really deflect an orbital bombardment? They could survive one certainly, but if a whole fleet of ships surrounded and then broadsided the earth they wouldn't have the "surface area" so to speak to block the entire barrage. I assume a lance strike is basically a giant laser, correct me if I'm wrong.

As for possession, I think corruption would be more likely. An agent of the Chaos gods just approaches a lower-tier DBZ fighter and says "you want to be as badass as Goku? Chaos can help you". Goku might not fall for it, but his human friends might since he overshadowed them pretty quickly.

Rutee
2008-05-17, 08:48 AM
Er.. that'd be a really bad deal for Chaos to try to make. Ignoring the heroes' fortitude for a minute.. they /can't/ make a Z fighter any more powerful. That's the entire problem they're facing here; They can't touch the Z crew in a straight fight.

And I don't see why not. They wouldn't be sitting idly in the first place, so I don't think the Imperium would ever get the chance to actually surround it. From there, you've got the Z Fighters at their individual peaks. And there quite a few of them, and they're really, really fast. And they can deflect lasers with their own lasers.

LBO
2008-05-17, 08:51 AM
I was unaware that this was sufficient to stop them. Ya sure it's not just that WH40k is on the periphery of the public consciousness?

Though that didn't stop them from going after Shin Megami Tensei, so it's entirely probable that I'm wrong.
40k is pretty well known here in the UK; it grew up here and generally replaced Airfix models as the obsession of choice for craft-inclined boys. Odds are a male of a certain age here will have been exposed to 40k, and might well have 6000 points of Blood Angels stashed in his room somewhere gathering dust. Although not exactly high profile, more or less everyone is distantly aware of "warhammers", and there's never been a massive backlash against it... though it might be that parents just see it as modelling and painting, which are of course healthy hobbies for young lads.

Can't speak for it stateside, though.

(edit)

And they can deflect lasers with their own lasers.
PHYSICS: Erm...?
40K and DBZ: SHUT THE **** UP AND SIT THE **** DOWN.

Poison_Fish
2008-05-17, 09:04 AM
40k is pretty well known here in the UK; it grew up here and generally replaced Airfix models as the obsession of choice for craft-inclined boys. Odds are a male of a certain age here will have been exposed to 40k, and might well have 6000 points of Blood Angels stashed in his room somewhere gathering dust. Although not exactly high profile, more or less everyone is distantly aware of "warhammers", and there's never been a massive backlash against it... though it might be that parents just see it as modelling and painting, which are of course healthy hobbies for young lads.


Or in my case, 2000 points of Black Templars, 1000 of ulthwe eldar, and 2000 of Imperial Guard. Which in terms of cost for the IG, is more like 6000 points of blood angles, ;_;.

Shas aia Toriia
2008-05-17, 09:32 AM
And they can deflect lasers with their own lasers.

. . . What?
Even knowing how screwed up physics are in both universes . . .

What . . . ?

Rutee
2008-05-17, 09:35 AM
...Uh. You've never seen one of the many, many scenes where the hero and villain throw a beam at each other, the beams stop at each other, and they both grunt and scream trying to force their beam through the other guy's? It's practically stock footage.

LBO
2008-05-17, 09:37 AM
TV TROPES TO THE RESCUE! (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BeamOWar)

Bryn
2008-05-17, 09:53 AM
blood angles, ;_;.

It's really, really, petty, but this is just too much of an opportunity to me to pass up; hope you don't find this insulting :tongue:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6221/bloodanglesql4.png
Also, never seen BeamOWar in 40k; but who cares? We have Dragonball Z. Dragonball Z. If the Z-ers wanted to deflect lasers with lasers, then they'd probably just go ahead and do it. There doesn't seem to be much else they can't do.

LBO
2008-05-17, 10:17 AM
Not as bad as Dark Angles...

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/LBO_photos/darkangles.png

Poison_Fish
2008-05-17, 10:24 AM
Personally, I'm much more a fan of Unpfhorgiven (http://marathongame.wikia.com/wiki/Unpfhorgiven_(Level)).

But yes, that makes me a sad panda.

Bryn
2008-05-17, 10:53 AM
Hmm... perhaps this would be a better representation of the Blood Angles...
http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/3414/bloodangles2qt0.png

hylian chozo
2008-05-17, 10:56 AM
Behold! A video of Bardock (Goku's dad), BREATHING IN SPACE! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPELlQskcVM)
Either sayains can breathe in space and Frieza is an idiot...
or
Bardock is "special".

Xefas
2008-05-17, 11:23 AM
Well, I've got two points, one in favor of each side.

Goku has Instant Transmission, a technique that allows him to break down his own molecules and reassemble them instantaneously at any other point in the universe that he's been to before (or can gather a good mental image of). The process takes a few seconds to "begin", but he can also take other people with him, willing or no, if he's able to hold onto them for the few seconds it takes to initiate.

Goku has little to no special defense against viral agents. The entire plot of the Trunks Saga (and parts of the Android Saga) revolved around Goku catching a perfectly normal Earth virus and being killed by it. During his time, there was no cure, so Trunks had to travel back in time from the future to give him a cure that would be invented later.

So, if you could Virus Bomb the planet Goku is on without him knowing about it, then that's the end of him. However, given three seconds of time and a picture of Terra, then suddenly he's InUrBase, and so on.

I don't know how common "Woot, I visited the Golden Throne! Wish you were here!" postcards are, but there you go.

LBO
2008-05-17, 11:27 AM
Looks more like the Angry Marines logo to me...

freerangetroll
2008-05-17, 11:31 AM
I'm probably reaching here, but since 40K is allowed to bring all its resources into the battle. The Nightbringer goes and sits in the middle of the galaxies sun and drinks it dry. End result? Dead earth.

Granted, that would take a decent bit of time, but what the hell, it is really OP and cool.

LBO
2008-05-17, 11:38 AM
"Galaxy's sun"?

...Space does not work that way.

Bryn
2008-05-17, 11:58 AM
Not even in 40k, at that, even if 40k space is an ocean (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceIsAnOcean) [/obligatory Trope]. I mean, seriously, do you see a sun here (http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html)? :smallamused:

Also, I get the impression that even if it is capable of destroying stars, the Nightbringer doesn't do it much - probably because it's significantly weaker than it once was. In any case, there are no stars disappearing for no good reason that I'm aware of. :smallconfused:

Solo
2008-05-17, 12:27 PM
I'm probably reaching here, but since 40K is allowed to bring all its resources into the battle. The Nightbringer goes and sits in the middle of the galaxies sun and drinks it dry. End result? Dead earth.



You mean the sumermassive black hole?

freerangetroll
2008-05-17, 12:28 PM
Sun, star, whatever. Mmm and not galaxy, Solar System. My apologies.

As to the Nightbringer, that is what he does. It is how he feeds. At the end of the first Uriel book he is chilling in the middle of a star draining it. Fairly slowly because he is weak, but he's doing it.

Point is, when the local systems main star goes boom and or dead, it has never been a good thing in any fluff I've read.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 12:32 PM
Not even in 40k, at that, even if 40k space is an ocean (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceIsAnOcean) [/obligatory Trope]. I mean, seriously, do you see a sun here (http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html)? :smallamused:

Also, I get the impression that even if it is capable of destroying stars, the Nightbringer doesn't do it much - probably because it's significantly weaker than it once was. In any case, there are no stars disappearing for no good reason that I'm aware of. :smallconfused:

There are certainly stars still going out unnaturally- that was what brought the Inquistion down on that tomb planet, in that WD article. I can't remember the name of the mini-campaign, but it was the one with those Astropaths with Stockholm-syndrome, and where the Inquisitor left the Cadians behind to blow the fusion bomb in the Necron throne room.

Talkkno
2008-05-17, 01:02 PM
How about the God-Emperor of Mankind?

Lord Iames Osari
2008-05-17, 01:22 PM
Isn't he a cripple in a life-support chair or something?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 01:41 PM
Yeah, but he is still very much a presence - Emperor's Tarot, Astronomican, protecting CIAPHAS CAIN HERO OF THE IMPERIUM, that sort of thing.

LBO
2008-05-17, 01:43 PM
Giving the Living Saints their wings, letting Sisters of Battle pull off all kinds of crazy ****, also, possibly holding the Chaos Gods at bay and stopping the Warp overwhelming the material universe. Nobody's quite certain about the last two.

The Emperor pre-Heresy was a god, pure and simple, above and beyond anything else the notably insane 40k universe could produce by orders of magnitude. Now... he's a broken god on life support. Either way, DBZ is so stupidly overpowered, he might be taken down by a ugly spiky-haired retard, which is such an awful prospect I prefer not to consider it.

I'm reading False Gods again, and... it's just so sad to see everything the Imperium should have been destroyed by ignorance and hubris and corruption. ;_; manly tears

Querzis
2008-05-17, 01:50 PM
The only way WH40k could win is with mind control, everything else wont even scratch Krillin and Krillin is a weakling in the DBZ universe.

Really, if their mind control actually work on them, then they can win as long as they actually have the time to use it before Vegeta destroy their entire species (I agree that Goku or his sons dont wanna kill anyone, but that aint gonna stop Vegeta or Piccolo.) But they will have to use it fast, if they actually throw some bomb on Earth before trying mind control, Vegeta is gonna be so pissed off they wont ever be able to get near of him, he'll just blast everything he see.

Mind control is the only way to win this. Otherwise, nothing can win against the DBZ universe. Even when they were a thousand times weaker they could still destroy planet or get hit by blast that destroy planet and survive!

And we should really never use DBZ in a vs thread ever again. Its always gonna be the same thing with DBZ, you use mind control or you lose. Absolutely EVERYTHING else wont bother anyone in the DBZ cast.

Poison_Fish
2008-05-17, 02:28 PM
Point is, when the local systems main star goes boom and or dead, it has never been a good thing in any fluff I've read.

I dunno, I liked the use of trih xeem in Marathon and the subsequent release of the W'rkncacnter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%27rkncacnter). But then as has been previously shown, I like Marathon.

Xefas
2008-05-17, 02:31 PM
And we should really never use DBZ in a vs thread ever again. Its always gonna be the same thing with DBZ, you use mind control or you lose. Absolutely EVERYTHING else wont bother anyone in the DBZ cast.

I would have thought this as well a little over a day ago, but then this came up in the Disgaea vs WH40K thread.



He then completely obliterates the Netherworld (Plane of existence) that you're on. No, I am not making this up.

Disgaea beats Dragonball Z.

1) The Fight starts
2) The Existence of all Dragonball characters ends
3) Cue Lord Laharl's Hymn (http://www.ultrace.com/uost/mp3s/Disgaea%20Unofficial%20OST%20Disc%201%20%5B01%5D%2 0Lord%20Laharl's%20Hymn.mp3)

----------------
Anyway, on topic, I guess my post went unnoticed because it was at a the bottom of page 2. The DBZ cast has no special immunity to viral agents. This is actually an important plot point in two of the DBZ sagas.

If the Imperium can manage to infect the cast with something before Goku just goes light-speed meatgrinder on the galaxy, then they could win.

GoC
2008-05-17, 03:37 PM
I would actually go with the DBZ, the powerlevels are just beyound belief.

If you don't mind controll them...hum...well, if they are not mind controlled they would keep killing everything send against them from the 40K universe.

Short of the Emperor (in good health), the chaos Gods or some of the Ctan there is nothing in the same level for destructive power and some of these may have the destructive power but not anywhere near the physical resilience the DBZ characters start exhibiting.

Why are you thinking of it as a one v one battle?
Think of it as half the imperial fleet firing at goku in one burst.
Would that kill him? I'd say yes, but well...

Going by what Cubey said it definitely will. Goku is dead.


And we should really never use DBZ in a vs thread ever again. Its always gonna be the same thing with DBZ, you use mind control or you lose. Absolutely EVERYTHING else wont bother anyone in the DBZ cast.
Silver Age Superman already beat Goku and the rest in a vs thread.

Lorn
2008-05-17, 03:53 PM
A virus bomb relies on the virus taking (Unlikely; Martial Artists don't catch colds :smalltongue:)
Not the virus bomb I believe is being referred to.

Life Eater, from the Horus Heresy?

It kind of disintegrates all organic matter on a planet. Doesn't need to catch. Think acid, just thousands of times worse. And after that, the atmosphere of the planet can be burned off fairly easily, due to the entire planet being covered by highly flammable gases given off by the immediate decomposition of the entire planetary population.

Death Guard Marines are meant to be basically completely immune to disease, this did not stop them decaying and dying horribly.

In either way, WH40K wins hands down, sorry.

There's planets upon thousands of planets of troops waiting the Imperium's call. Meaning massive fleets of thousands of ships if needed.

And that's just one faction.

Goku etc may well be superhuman and nigh invincible. But they still need air. They still need an atmosphere they can breathe in.

Blow up the planet, bye bye atmosphere.

Blow up anything leaving, it's not that hard... no amount of shielding can stop the amount of firepower any one of any of the factions in the WH40K universe could get up.

Drascin
2008-05-17, 04:01 PM
Why are you thinking of it as a one v one battle?
Think of it as half the imperial fleet firing at goku in one burst.
Would that kill him? I'd say yes, but well...

Going by what Cubey said it definitely will. Goku is dead.

Problem is, they really shouldn't be aiming at Goku. They can't even be aiming at Goku, actually. They just have nothing that can even follow him for aiming. Their only chance of actually hitting him is aiming for the Earth and hoping he decides to do another heroic sacrifice, because if they aim for him he's just going to Instant Transmission to the other side of the fleet and obliterate half of them in the couple seconds they take to turn around.

And in the meantime, Vegeta is doing exactly that whether they do aim for the Earth or not.

Shadowcaller
2008-05-17, 04:02 PM
Goku etc may well be superhuman and nigh invincible. But they still need air. They still need an atmosphere they can breathe in.

The sad part is that DBZ characters don't really need air to breath:smallbiggrin: (don't ask why, it boggles the mind)

GoC
2008-05-17, 04:04 PM
Problem is, they really shouldn't be aiming at Goku. They can't even be aiming at Goku, actually. They just have nothing that can even follow him for aiming. Their only chance of actually hitting him is aiming for the Earth and hoping he decides to do another heroic sacrifice, because if they aim for him he's just going to Instant Transmission to the other side of the fleet and obliterate half of them in the couple seconds they take to turn around.

And in the meantime, Vegeta is doing exactly that whether they do aim for the Earth or not.

I've seen a couple of episodes and I don't think Goku can destroy several billion ships that fast.

Cubey
2008-05-17, 04:13 PM
I've seen a couple of episodes and I don't think Goku can destroy several billion ships that fast.

Sure he can. Emiting giant explosions that destroy everything in their path and have an arbitrary large radius is standard fare for DBZ characters. They're Vegeta's specialty, for one thing.

Let's face it. WH 40K can win with subterfuge - poison, mind control, etc. In straight combat, they don't have a slightest chance. Power-wise, the whole universum is beneath Z Warriors' notice.

Drascin
2008-05-17, 04:14 PM
I've seen a couple of episodes and I don't think Goku can destroy several billion ships that fast.

I've been forced to watch a huge part of the series, and I'm pretty certain he can take about whatever arbitrary number of ships he can get in a straight line area (lines are Goku's specialty - explosions are more Vegeta's turf)with ease, and then teleport again, all in the blink of an eye. Instant Transmission Kamehameha was based on this, mostly - appear to be charging up your attack, and then port at about forty centimeters of the enemy and blast him in the face.

There's just not much the fleet can do against someone who can not be there in a matter of 2/10 of a second and tear a line of nothing right through the whole fleet every couple of seconds.

Cubey
2008-05-17, 04:24 PM
Also, even if you grouped all the warships in WH40k 'verse in one huge-arse fleet and made them fire at Goku at the same time, and SOMEHOW all the attacks would hit simultaneously, he still wouldn't feel it.

It's like I've written before - being hit by one microbe doesn't hurt you at all. So a million or a billion or another arbitrarily large number of microbes charging at you at once won't hurt you either.

Of course, judging by real life physics, kinetic force does add up if applied at the same moment - but DBZ laughs in the face of physics, then beats it up and leaves in the corner, crying. So does WH 40K, to be honest.

GoC
2008-05-17, 05:09 PM
I've been forced to watch a huge part of the series, and I'm pretty certain he can take about whatever arbitrary number of ships he can get in a straight line area (lines are Goku's specialty - explosions are more Vegeta's turf)with ease, and then teleport again, all in the blink of an eye. Instant Transmission Kamehameha was based on this, mostly - appear to be charging up your attack, and then port at about forty centimeters of the enemy and blast him in the face.

There's just not much the fleet can do against someone who can not be there in a matter of 2/10 of a second and tear a line of nothing right through the whole fleet every couple of seconds.
Two points: that line is only going to hit one or two ships (in case you didn't know: Space is BIG).
How do you know it'll instantly kill those ships?


It's like I've written before - being hit by one microbe doesn't hurt you at all. So a million or a billion or another arbitrarily large number of microbes charging at you at once won't hurt you either.
You're completely wrong (as you point out in the next paragraph).


Of course, judging by real life physics, kinetic force does add up if applied at the same moment - but DBZ laughs in the face of physics, then beats it up and leaves in the corner, crying. So does WH 40K, to be honest.
Unless it's specifically noted that common sense doesn't apply then it does.

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-17, 05:13 PM
But doesn't DBZ do the thing where if multiple beams are fired, they stack up? I know usually only the "good guys" use this, but come on, the principle should work on Lance batteries as well.

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-17, 05:48 PM
I reference you to the last two minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fjMOMVPj1E&feature=related

Vegeta's estimated power level without any powering up during the first story arc:
16,000

Compared to the highest power level recorded in DBZ (Vegetto), which hit 10 digits...

As much as I adore 40k, they're in serious trouble if DBZ's weakest warriors are all capable of doing that.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 06:24 PM
I think we're agreed, we need more than Imperial Ships.

Something suggests to me that we need a bigger gun.

I believe that there is one remaining Blackstone Fortress, and a further three*, gentlemen. Let me remind you that, alone, they are sun-destroying weapons; together, they combine their Cannons of Vaul to, well, frightening effect.

I believe that we have our Kamehameha analogue right there.



*(I admit that this is a complete guess, but the 8-pointed star suggests eight others to me, as well as the Chaos star).

GoC
2008-05-17, 06:29 PM
I reference you to the last two minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fjMOMVPj1E&feature=related

Vegeta's estimated power level without any powering up during the first story arc:
16,000

Compared to the highest power level recorded in DBZ (Vegetto), which hit 10 digits...

As much as I adore 40k, they're in serious trouble if DBZ's weakest warriors are all capable of doing that.
That's what's called A Conveniently Easy to Destroy Planet(TM).
Everyone know's the earth and terrain in DBZ is chock full of antimatter that only requires a slight push to react.:smallbiggrin:

Rutee
2008-05-17, 07:41 PM
I think we're agreed, we need more than Imperial Ships.

Something suggests to me that we need a bigger gun.

I believe that there is one remaining Blackstone Fortress, and a further three*, gentlemen. Let me remind you that, alone, they are sun-destroying weapons; together, they combine their Cannons of Vaul to, well, frightening effect.

I believe that we have our Kamehameha analogue right there.
Again: Second Arc Vegeta can blow up a planet. No, not wipe all life out on it, but make there not be a planet any more. Second Arc Vegeta is at a power level of 14000 or so I think? Goku at the end of DBZ has a power level of 350 million.

Anteros
2008-05-17, 07:44 PM
During the first battle against Frieza on Namek one of the major plot points was that Goku couldn't survive in space while Frieza could. Hence Frieza's idea to blow up Namek and presumably leave Goku dead. By then Frieza knew that Goku was a Saiyan, so from that we can assume that Saiyans are not space-breathers. At least, as far as I can tell.

Can the Z crew really deflect an orbital bombardment? They could survive one certainly, but if a whole fleet of ships surrounded and then broadsided the earth they wouldn't have the "surface area" so to speak to block the entire barrage. I assume a lance strike is basically a giant laser, correct me if I'm wrong.

As for possession, I think corruption would be more likely. An agent of the Chaos gods just approaches a lower-tier DBZ fighter and says "you want to be as badass as Goku? Chaos can help you". Goku might not fall for it, but his human friends might since he overshadowed them pretty quickly.

Actually the major point is that Goku doesn't think he can survive in space. He later finds out that super saiyans do just fine in space, and it's illustrated many, many times throughout the series. (Actually I can think of one instance where Goku was unprotected in space before the Frieza arc come to think of it. So no, the vacuum of space isn't a problem.)

Rutee
2008-05-17, 07:46 PM
While I agree that vacuum isn't an issue, the objective is "Defend Earth", which the Z Fighters can't feasibly do once an Alpha+ Psykker is brought in, since said Psykker can do GRIMDARK PSYCHIC no. 142 and make there not be a planet (Or at least, not a planet with life, Z team notwithstanding) anymore.

hylian chozo
2008-05-17, 07:56 PM
Scenario: Goku, in his infinite stupidity has taken the dragonballs and used them to wish for a challenging opponent. As a result of this, the DBZ's version of earth has been transported into the Wh40k universe right in the middle of a hotly contested territory between the different major factions, each of whom would like to claim the earth as a strategic planet, or at the very least destroy it

Hmmm....
By the end of the series the earth dragonballs are capable of granting two wishes, correct?
I foresee the following:
1. Goku wishes for a challenge.
2. Earth is transported to Wh40k universe.
3. Goku clarifies that he wanted a challenging 1 v. 1 opponent, using the second wish.
4. The Emperor wakes up...
Alternatively:
1.Goku wishes for more time to use a spirit bomb with the second wish.
2.Time stops...forever.

Anteros
2008-05-17, 08:00 PM
But how close does he have to be to do that? Cause Goku can quite literally be anywhere he wants instantly, and can destroy him before he even thinks about reacting. Raditz was stated to be faster than the speed of light at a power level of 1200. Care to guess how fast someone with a power in the millions is? This means that Goku can think at this speed as well so he isn't exactly the moron he is considered to be. At least when it comes to fighting.

And all of these arguments forget the point that even if someone from DBZ dies, or a virus manages to hit the earth, the DBZ crew can just wish it didn't happen.

Rutee
2008-05-17, 08:02 PM
And we should really never use DBZ in a vs thread ever again. Its always gonna be the same thing with DBZ, you use mind control or you lose. Absolutely EVERYTHING else wont bother anyone in the DBZ cast.

I should probably point out that the Space Runaway Ideon is singlehandedly responsible for the destruction of a /universe/.


But how close does he have to be to do that? Cause Goku can quite literally be anywhere he wants instantly, and can destroy him before he even thinks about reacting. Raditz was stated to be faster than the speed of light at a power level of 1200. Care to guess how fast someone with a power in the millions is? This means that Goku can think at this speed as well so he isn't exactly the moron he is considered to be. At least when it comes to fighting.[/quote\
I honestly have no idea.

[quote]And all of these arguments forget the point that even if someone from DBZ dies, or a virus manages to hit the earth, the DBZ crew can just wish it didn't happen.
Hm... don't the two namekkians have to live for that to be true?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-17, 08:08 PM
Again: Second Arc Vegeta can blow up a planet. No, not wipe all life out on it, but make there not be a planet any more. Second Arc Vegeta is at a power level of 14000 or so I think? Goku at the end of DBZ has a power level of 350 million.

Yes? Blackstone Fortresses were built to wipe out suns (and the C'tan inside them). I'm not saying that they can destroy the DBZers, but sun-destroying power can at least hold them back while they're powering up - long enough, perhaps, to put our other plans into action.

EDIT:Anyway, I propose a truce. Let us say that Goku is the Lost Primarch, heir to either the 2nd or 11th Space Marine Legions (the Saiyans), and we can all go and beat up Earth-616 and the Culture together.

Rutee
2008-05-17, 08:14 PM
aren't those the immobile batteries? And there are only 4, yes? Can they take the punishment they dish out?

I'm assuming they put suns out by firing a huge laser at them, rather then specialized tech focussed on ending Fusion, yes? No reason to expect physics, sure, but I'm making sure.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 08:16 PM
Meh, arguing in universe power is pointless.

What we need to do is something of Imperial level.

That is, gather the biggest horde of well drawn catgirls ever, and compare the kill quotients of each universe. The one that kills more catgirls wins.

Also, if anyone thinks Disgaea is THAT powerful, there's worse. I remember a character from a comical short story that made a magnaverse (A universe of multiverses), populated it, and became PWN'er from the adoration of the creatures inside that magnaverse, in the span of 67 seconds. The combat potential was frightening.

Solo
2008-05-17, 08:17 PM
If the Earth just appears in contested space, it dies due to lack of a sun. Bye by Goku, no food for you!

Myshlaevsky
2008-05-17, 08:18 PM
The Blackstone Fortresses are pretty resilient - they're difficult enough to destroy that in a few cases banishing them into the Warp was a better option. They have been destroyed by forces deployed from Sector Battlefleets, however, which isn't anything like the space power of the entire Imperium.

That said, I'm sure the DBZ crew could manage it. This really isn't a competition.

I wonder if you could get them to voluntarily lose by demonstrating the sheer number of people they'd have to kill to stop the fight? They are 'good guys' after all.

konfeta
2008-05-17, 09:21 PM
The only things in WH40k that can really harm DBZ level stuff without diving into abusing the Warp are C'Tan toys.

I think if WH40k figures out a way to smack a DBZ guy with a Phase Knife or a powerful Gauss Flayer, no amount of plot/whatever armor is going to save them from having their innards diced or their body unrolled into molecule pancakes. It's not as much a question of armor, the Necrons in fluff ended the penetration versus armor race in single and definitive go.

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-17, 09:40 PM
As an admitted adorer of Dragonball Z, I have a semi pertinent question.

Why in the Nine Hells and Infinite Layers of the Abyss would everyone/thing in the entire Warhammerverse just drop whatever they were doing and speed for a small if significantly placed planet and attack it with everything they've got? I mean sure, the Imperium COULD sick 48,000,000,000 Space marines and 5,000,000 ships at Earth, and the Chaos forces could do whatever, and the Eldar and the orks and the Necrons and the Tyranids or whatever could attack. But they're all at each other's throats at the same time over billions of planets across the galaxy! Entire wars don't stop just because a new planet shows up! And if these forces are all trying to secure/destroy Earth at once they'll be in shooting range of each other, and they are NOT friends...

freerangetroll
2008-05-17, 09:45 PM
As an admitted adorer of Dragonball Z, I have a semi pertinent question.

Why in the Nine Hells and Infinite Layers of the Abyss would everyone/thing in the entire Warhammerverse just drop whatever they were doing and speed for a small if significantly placed planet and attack it with everything they've got? I mean sure, the Imperium COULD sick 48,000,000,000 Space marines and 5,000,000 ships at Earth, and the Chaos forces could do whatever, and the Eldar and the orks and the Necrons and the Tyranids or whatever could attack. But they're all at each other's throats at the same time over billions of planets across the galaxy! Entire wars don't stop just because a new planet shows up! And if these forces are all trying to secure/destroy Earth at once they'll be in shooting range of each other, and they are NOT friends...

Not that it makes sense for the setting, but the op did say that everything 40K offered could be thrown at the DBZers.

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-17, 09:52 PM
Not that it makes sense for the setting, but the op did say that everything 40K offered could be thrown at the DBZers.

I think it was more along the lines of 'can the Z team protect Earth from the Warhammer invaders'...

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 09:53 PM
As an admitted adorer of Dragonball Z, I have a semi pertinent question.

Why in the Nine Hells and Infinite Layers of the Abyss would everyone/thing in the entire Warhammerverse just drop whatever they were doing and speed for a small if significantly placed planet and attack it with everything they've got? I mean sure, the Imperium COULD sick 48,000,000,000 Space marines and 5,000,000 ships at Earth, and the Chaos forces could do whatever, and the Eldar and the orks and the Necrons and the Tyranids or whatever could attack. But they're all at each other's throats at the same time over billions of planets across the galaxy! Entire wars don't stop just because a new planet shows up! And if these forces are all trying to secure/destroy Earth at once they'll be in shooting range of each other, and they are NOT friends...

This is Warhammer40K

*Sparta Version* THIS! IS! WARHAMMER40K!

Attacking stupidly minor threats with ginormous armies is done for a living.

freerangetroll
2008-05-17, 09:55 PM
Yes, all of WH40k. And Goku very specifically won't use attacks that blow up the Earth so that's no good.

^^

Ops second post in the thread.

Tengu
2008-05-17, 09:58 PM
Lord Laharl's Hymn (http://www.ultrace.com/uost/mp3s/Disgaea%20Unofficial%20OST%20Disc%201%20%5B01%5D%2 0Lord%20Laharl's%20Hymn.mp3)


Is that Etna on the main vocal?

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-17, 10:00 PM
^^

Ops second post in the thread.

Ah, I was interpreting the first post as opposed to the second. :-P

In that case everything that needs to be said has been said. (shrugs) Except that mind control has been tried (and failed miserably) before.

Azerian Kelimon
2008-05-17, 10:01 PM
Is that Etna on the main vocal?

Y'know, that's the theme park version. EVERY great devil has THIS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUOpUqni0_g) as their hymn and anthem.

freerangetroll
2008-05-17, 10:11 PM
Ah, I was interpreting the first post as opposed to the second. :-P

In that case everything that needs to be said has been said. (shrugs) Except that mind control has been tried (and failed miserably) before.

So after reading these boards for a bit, I was wondering if "normal" vs threads exist.

You know, somewhat normal characters like Roland from the Dark Tower and Master Chief having a nice little no holds barred. I always enjoyed those a lot more then the planet destroying variety power levels that seem to be the main focus here.

If anybody ever frequented the White Wolf boards a couple years or so ago, they had an awesome tournament style system set up. I wonder if I could get something like that going here.

/derail

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-17, 10:16 PM
So after reading these boards for a bit, I was wondering if "normal" vs threads exist.

You know, somewhat normal characters like Roland from the Dark Tower and Master Chief having a nice little no holds barred. I always enjoyed those a lot more then the planet destroying variety power levels that seem to be the main focus here.

If anybody ever frequented the White Wolf boards a couple years or so ago, they had an awesome tournament style system set up. I wonder if I could get something like that going here.

/derail

Ah, my favourite types are when the power level is 'world conquering' but not 'planet busting', with a little 'immortal' and 'dark magic' thrown in for good measure.

See, I notice that when the power levels are too high or too low it all doesn't last very long. If there's enough variables people could have the longest most involved debates. And depending on how civil everyone was, it was so enjoyable.

I never saw those forums or that thread but I'd probably check it out here.

freerangetroll
2008-05-17, 10:27 PM
Hehe, threads. It had a field of about 100 or so contests with a one loss and you are out system. The arena was a Roman style gladiatorial arena. Most of the contestants were sub planet threatening. Conan, A predator, Wolverine, Master Chief, etc.

Basically people argued for and against the contestants on a thread by thread basis, put their votes in post form and the winner after 24 hours was sent to the next round.

IIRC it lasted about 4 months in total and was a total blast to take part in.

Xefas
2008-05-17, 10:30 PM
Is that Etna on the main vocal?

I have no idea. Definitely doesn't sound out of the question.

GoC
2008-05-18, 02:01 AM
Again: Second Arc Vegeta can blow up a planet. No, not wipe all life out on it, but make there not be a planet any more. Second Arc Vegeta is at a power level of 14000 or so I think? Goku at the end of DBZ has a power level of 350 million.

The problem is that it contradicts itself...
For example would you mind telling me if power levels are linear or exponential?

EDIT: Or entirely made up by the protagonists.

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-18, 08:18 PM
Hehe, threads. It had a field of about 100 or so contests with a one loss and you are out system. The arena was a Roman style gladiatorial arena. Most of the contestants were sub planet threatening. Conan, A predator, Wolverine, Master Chief, etc.

Basically people argued for and against the contestants on a thread by thread basis, put their votes in post form and the winner after 24 hours was sent to the next round.

IIRC it lasted about 4 months in total and was a total blast to take part in.

...That is so ingenious.

Cubey
2008-05-18, 08:21 PM
The problem is that it contradicts itself...
For example would you mind telling me if power levels are linear or exponential?

EDIT: Or entirely made up by the protagonists.

Linear, and outside of Saiyan, and later Frieza Saga (where the power level stopped at 15 million, but the highest number mentioned was 800.000 - that's Frieza's power level in her his second form) NEVER mentioned in-character. They are only mentioned in real life official source materials.
So not so much made up by protagonists but rather by the author with no sense of scale. :smalltongue:

Anteros
2008-05-18, 11:34 PM
When I said "yes all of 40k" I was referring to the fact that every faction is present. I wasn't saying that they were all going to super-hero team up against Earth.

It's still a contested area, and they are still fighting each other as well as the DBZ crew.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-05-19, 12:15 AM
When I said "yes all of 40k" I was referring to the fact that every faction is present. I wasn't saying that they were all going to super-hero team up against Earth.

It's still a contested area, and they are still fighting each other as well as the DBZ crew.

Huh... then I guess Goku wins by default.

Even as a frequent supporter of 40K, I'm more than willing to allow Goku to destroy any given Imperial unit (from Guardsman to capital ship) at a whim. Add in the rest of the Z Fighters, and they could win any given battle. The problem is that the Imperium alone (and let's not forget Orks and Tyrannids) would be able to win by attrition by slowly making the Earth uninhabitable.

All it would take is one ship teleporting down a virus bomb (if they can't drop them normally) to start ruining things. Maybe Bulma or whatever would be able to stop that one, but soon other massive ordinances would just result in enough damage to the planet that it can no longer sustain life. The Imperium has literally inexhaustible resources and since Goku is fighting a defensive war, he loses.

But if the 40K Universe is still running as it has, then the other parties will ultimately lose interest in taking down Earth. It has poor technology and is not expansionist, so it's no better than any other Agriworld for the Imperium. Worse, whatever is defending it is able to ward off any given force sent against it. The Imperium would just mark it with a beacon for "will destroy later" and get back to the business of squashing rebellions and so forth. Ultimately they would forget about it, and Goku would still be bored.

Orks, Tyranids, Tau, and Dark Eldar aren't really organized enough to lay siege to a world. If the Tyranids get repulsed bad enough, their Fleet Swarm just bends around it (like it did for the Tomb Worlds). Chaos and the Eldar have bigger fish to fry than annoying some toughly held world.

Nobody is going to want to expend that much effort, and so Earth is going to be a little beat up, but nothing another Dragonball Wish can't fix. :smallsigh:

Rutee
2008-05-19, 12:17 AM
Given the terms of Goku's wish, I pondered whether it'd be more logical for WH40k's biggest, most powerful creatures to find themselves in a pit fight with Goku/Other Z Fighters, really.

Matar
2008-05-19, 01:58 AM
What's to stop the Warhammer guys from just getting the Dragon Balls and wishing this "God Emperor" back to life?

Then again, Goku used the energy of the *entire freaking universe* in one attack.

Seriously.

Matar
2008-05-19, 02:01 AM
What's to stop the Warhammer guys from just getting the Dragon Balls and wishing this "God Emperor" back to life?

Then again, Goku used the energy of the *entire freaking universe* in one attack.

Seriously.

Rutee
2008-05-19, 02:48 AM
Uh. Beating up the Z Fighters?

Thangorodrim
2008-05-19, 07:07 AM
or a virus manages to hit the earth, the DBZ crew can just wish it didn't happen.

How ? If a viral weapon hits the planet, everyone is dead. Everything is dead, all thats left is a lifeless sludge, and an atmosphere filled with unbreathable volatiles.

Either that or a Matter-conversion cyclonic warhead delivered by stealth ship, warp missile, teleport etc is a winning strategy for the Imperials. Chain reaction planet killers or vortex charges is probably the Eldar solution, or a mindwipe assassination, altering the suns output to cook the planet, etc.


I'm assuming they put suns out by firing a huge laser at them, rather then specialized tech focussed on ending Fusion, yes? No reason to expect physics, sure, but I'm making sure.

the talismans of Vaul use warp cannons that were designed to kill/defeat C'tan, probably by dumping them into the warp and/or isolating them from the material world energies they rely on.

So solar system killing is probably designed to induce a supernova by removing matter from the star and dumping it in the warp.

To stop this from happening is a little difficult, since I doubt the DBZ characters maintain a watch on what goes on in their solar system to that degree, but presuming that the DBZ craziness is right and Goku and similar level characters can survive their planet getting roasted, its a case of digging the the Dragonballs out of the smouldering wreckage of their cinder-planet and wishing everybody back presumably.

Although my precise DBZ lore is sketchy, don't the dragonballs need a living bloke to work or some crap like that ? i.e. that midget namek or the old guy.




Then again, Goku used the energy of the *entire freaking universe* in one attack.



Then again, Goku used the energy of the *entire freaking universe* in one attack.

Unless the universe became a dark and freezing cold void in which the only light was Goku's doom beam, everyone died, every sun went out, every trace of matter was evenly distributed across an infinite space, (y'know, crap like that), then Goku did NOT use everything. He might have used an unquantifiable amount of "ki" energy, but given that people also tend to die when their energy is completely depleted in DBZ, its a bit of a contradiction.

Matar
2008-05-19, 08:53 AM
Unless the universe became a dark and freezing cold void in which the only light was Goku's doom beam, everyone died, every sun went out, every trace of matter was evenly distributed across an infinite space, (y'know, crap like that), then Goku did NOT use everything. He might have used an unquantifiable amount of "ki" energy, but given that people also tend to die when their energy is completely depleted in DBZ, its a bit of a contradiction.


You can't put logic in Dragon Ball Z.

It's like, srsly impossible.It thrives on the illogical >_>.

But yeah, it took some energy away from the entire universe... Ki energy. How that works, or how much exactly, I have no idea.

Oslecamo
2008-05-19, 09:55 AM
You're all forgeting one very important point.

ANYTHING can blow up planets in the DBZ universe. Now, seriosuly, go watch the series again. Here are the proofs:

1-The same attacks that blow up mountains and leave huge craters only leave normal humans slightly charred or with a simple hole in the body, when by all means they should have been reduced to a pile of ashes or minced meat.

2-When a living being, ANY living being is thrown against an hard surface, the hard surface colapses but the living being doesn't even breack a bone, maybe a few scratches.

3- Clothes seem to be quite more durable than solid rock.

So, we can conclude that inanimated matter on the DBZ universe ie extremely fragile and volatile, and thus ridicously easy to destroy. That or everybody in the DBZ universe is actually made of adamantium(commoners included).

Cybren
2008-05-19, 10:08 AM
It's presumed that the people have comparably high defenses, and the clothes are established as being highly durable through magic or superscience.

Oslecamo
2008-05-19, 12:07 PM
It's presumed that the people have comparably high defenses, and the clothes are established as being highly durable through magic or superscience.

Everybody in the universe?

Because what I said applies to all the animated beings that appear, be it the sayan warrior conquerer of galaxies or Joe the farmer who gets killed 5 second after first apearing, leaving an huge crater on solid rock but with it's clothes almost intact and with most of it's body still there.

Rutee
2008-05-19, 12:59 PM
Clothes are durable because most fans of the show (Myself included) don't want to see the characters naked after the first beam attack. It follows solid logic, just meta logic.

Solo
2008-05-19, 01:00 PM
Clothes are durable because most fans of the show (Myself included) don't want to see the characters naked after the first beam attack. It follows solid logic, just meta logic.

Well, i suppose there's always the hentai industry....

Ganurath
2008-05-19, 01:04 PM
No matter how big and blonde their hair gets, Saiyans will always be vulnerable to mindrape. Chaos Sorceror, Librarian, Farseer... any one of them can take them out, especially if they have the ego to let them go first.

Also, a Haemonculus with contact poison can make them explode.

Anteros
2008-05-19, 03:04 PM
People keep bringing out the mind rape/control cards but really, in the entire series the only one who was ever susceptible to mind control was Vegeta. He was controlled by a being who was literally able to mind control gods. Maybe the Imperium has someone on that level? I don't know.

But even in that situation, when Vegeta was ordered to do something he didn't already want to do he just said no and went about his business. And even that is forgetting that the exact same arc said he wouldn't be vulnerable to things like that in the future. (Although admittedly it was due to purity of heart rather than strength of mind.)

Everyone is also forgetting that the DBZ crew has some sort of 6th sense about sensing danger/powerful beings as well. I really don't think a Psyker is even going to get close enough to them to do any damage after they lose a few people and realize what they can do.

Oslecamo
2008-05-19, 03:18 PM
Clothes are durable because most fans of the show (Myself included) don't want to see the characters naked after the first beam attack. It follows solid logic, just meta logic.

Would it be too much to ask for some charred bones in a pile of ash as the last remaints of Joe the farmer? Classic, not too gorish, and helps a lot in the power comparison.

Anteros
2008-05-19, 03:32 PM
Would it be too much to ask for some charred bones in a pile of ash as the last remaints of Joe the farmer? Classic, not too gorish, and helps a lot in the power comparison.

Who are you even talking about? As I recall, whenever commoners die in DBZ they are vaporized. There was a farmer who died in the first episode because raditz flicked a bullet at him...but I wouldn't exactly expect him to be charred from that. Give me an example or I'm just going to assume you're making things up.

Oslecamo
2008-05-19, 03:41 PM
Well, when Buu decided to kill the entire human population in one shot, the blasts simply trespassed the people from one side to the other whitout actually vaporizing them as far as I remember, and Buu was really in the higher scale of power.

SurlySeraph
2008-05-19, 03:50 PM
Unless the universe became a dark and freezing cold void in which the only light was Goku's doom beam, everyone died, every sun went out, every trace of matter was evenly distributed across an infinite space, (y'know, crap like that), then Goku did NOT use everything. He might have used an unquantifiable amount of "ki" energy, but given that people also tend to die when their energy is completely depleted in DBZ, its a bit of a contradiction.

If I remember correctly, every living being in the universe contributed spirit energy to the attack. He didn't drain everything in the universe.

Anteros
2008-05-19, 04:23 PM
Well, when Buu decided to kill the entire human population in one shot, the blasts simply trespassed the people from one side to the other whitout actually vaporizing them as far as I remember, and Buu was really in the higher scale of power.


That may be true...it has been a while since I have seen the series. But standard fare in DBZ is definately vaporization. It's not really that unreasonable to think that a character could have an attack simply meant to kill people rather than destroy them.

The androids for example, who are definately on a much lower power level than Buu were shown to vaporize entire cities full of people without even trying. Given that evidence it's pretty safe to assume that Buu simply wasn't intending to destroy bodies, rather than that he couldn't. (Didn't Buu eat people or something? He might have left bodies behind for a reason.)

Rutee
2008-05-19, 04:29 PM
The androids for example, who are definately on a much lower power level than Buu were shown to vaporize entire cities full of people without even trying. Given that evidence it's pretty safe to assume that Buu simply wasn't intending to destroy bodies, rather than that he couldn't. (Didn't Buu eat people or something? He might have left bodies behind for a reason.)

As I recall, he turned them into candy then ate them. Which lead to one of the most epicly awesome fights in history, one that I actually watched DBZ for after saying "Never again" sometime in the middle of the Android saga. Specifically, Buu fighting the Fusion of the Week, after turning said Fusion of the Week into /candy/..

Lorn
2008-05-19, 04:30 PM
People keep bringing out the mind rape/control cards but really, in the entire series the only one who was ever susceptible to mind control was Vegeta. He was controlled by a being who was literally able to mind control gods. Maybe the Imperium has someone on that level? I don't know.
They do.

Several.

Take, say, your average Eldar farseer. Lived hundreds of years, if not thousands (not too sure on the lifespan, I know it's long though) and is generally sufficiently powerful to do basically anything.

Or maybe, Librarians. Yeah, superhuman warriors used to bending the Warp to suit their own needs in battle, functionally immortal (though not invincible - they can be killed, they just shouldn't die of old age). Wonder about if there's any been put in Dreadnoughts? Psychic killing machines of doom, possibly thousands of years old, the only life they know being in times of war. Having said that they aren't available in the army list, and I haven't heard about any. Doesn't defy logic for them to exist though.

Maybe Thousand Sons sorcerors, they've been around no idea how long, focussing purely on perfecting their psychic talents.

In short, yes, yes there ARE people that powerful - they just wouldn't do mind control. Instead, they'd basically destroy the minds (and possibly brains) of the person they were aiming at. Even if nothing else they'd open the way for something else to hit them - not with anything explodey, think more "blade through the heart and out the other side" death.

LBO
2008-05-19, 04:45 PM
Four words: Divisio Telepathica Psi-Titans. Four more words: BEARDY BEARDY BEARDY CHEESE

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 05:25 PM
Four words: Divisio Telepathica Psi-Titans. Four more words: BEARDY BEARDY BEARDY CHEESE

Haha, lol, I remember those. Why not make a psyker ... that's TWO FRAKKING MILES HIGH!

The Emperor and the Adeptus Mechanicus must have popped many a pill that night.

Anteros
2008-05-19, 05:54 PM
I keep asking and no one will give me a range on these powers. Because if they can fry Goku's brain from the other side of the universe, then yes they are probably going to win. If they need to get close to do it, they are never going to get a chance. (Close being about the size of the same solar system.)

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-19, 06:02 PM
I keep asking and no one will give me a range on these powers. Because if they can fry Goku's brain from the other side of the universe, then yes they are probably going to win. If they need to get close to do it, they are never going to get a chance. (Close being about the size of the same solar system.)

The most powerful psychic event on record (Birth of Slaanesh) fried basically every Eldar in existence. The ones we see today are just the remainder.

Oslecamo
2008-05-19, 06:08 PM
Haha, lol, I remember those. Why not make a psyker ... that's TWO FRAKKING MILES HIGH!

The Emperor and the Adeptus Mechanicus must have popped many a pill that night.

They must have taken the same thing that the doctor who created the DBZ androids took when he was building them.

Doctor:Behold! I'ver created a source of enery with wich one could easily blow up cities and planets!
Assistant: Awesome! So, shall we construct a doomsday weapon with it?
Doctor:No.
Assistant: Make a power armor and become the ultimate warrior in the universe?
Doctor:No.
Assistant:Making a robot with the source of energy and puting your brain onto it?
Doctor:No.
Assistant:Making a robot carefully programed to follow your orders?
Doctor:No.
Assistant: Then what? World peace?
Doctor: No you fool! I shall use it to craft androids with self intelegence and with no restrictions whatsoever so they'll turn upon me as as soon as they wake up!

GoC
2008-05-19, 08:38 PM
Linear, and outside of Saiyan, and later Frieza Saga (where the power level stopped at 15 million, but the highest number mentioned was 800.000 - that's Frieza's power level in her his second form) NEVER mentioned in-character. They are only mentioned in real life official source materials.
So not so much made up by protagonists but rather by the author with no sense of scale. :smalltongue:
In which case a single battleship should have at least 20 times (assuming someone with power level 10 can be killed by a single shot from a bolter) the firepower required to kill Mr. Power Level 15,000,000 in one shot.
Yep, no sense of scale but at least WH 40K wins with one shot!:smallbiggrin:

EDIT: DBZ shouldn't be used in vs. threads not so much because of it's power but because of it's inconsistency.
Inconsistency also means that the fans of the series can use just the really high powered examples and their opponents get the wrong impression of average DBZ power.

Rutee
2008-05-19, 09:06 PM
Except battleships can't put out power that high. You're just going by "Well, it can kill a person, can kill 10, multiply by Y" DBZ's fine to use; The thread is deliberately using the maximum. "Average"? Who gives a damn how powerful it is throughout the whole series..

GoC
2008-05-19, 09:29 PM
Except battleships can't put out power that high. You're just going by "Well, it can kill a person, can kill 10, multiply by Y" DBZ's fine to use;
I'm afraid the only thing I understood was "Except battleships can't put out power that high." which is a pretty silly thing to say. If the guns are energy based and one millions times the size (and thus the power) they are one million times the energy/damage.


The thread is deliberately using the maximum. "Average"? Who gives a damn how powerful it is throughout the whole series..
I'm just pointing out that using maximums will cause trouble later on in a highly inconsistent series.

Rutee
2008-05-19, 09:37 PM
You're claiming the guns can take out a character iwth power level 15m. A character with a power level of 14k can make there not be a planet anymore. In one shot.

And.. no. Aside from the fact that the maximums are stupid powerful, there's little trouble.

GoC
2008-05-19, 09:55 PM
You're claiming the guns can take out a character iwth power level 15m. A character with a power level of 14k can make there not be a planet anymore. In one shot.
Not quite. I'm claiming that if the power progression is linear like the person I was responding to mentioned, then a single battleship would be more than enough.
There's also the way inanimate materials are much weaker in DBZ then in WH 40K as Oslecamo has pointed out.

Cybren
2008-05-19, 10:15 PM
Not quite. I'm claiming that if the power progression is linear like the person I was responding to mentioned, then a single battleship would be more than enough.
There's also the way inanimate materials are much weaker in DBZ then in WH 40K as Oslecamo has pointed out.

That's confirmation bias: You assume DBZ is weaker than 40k, so when you are confronted with contrary evidence, you dismiss the evidence by presuming the planets are weaker.

Rutee
2008-05-19, 10:17 PM
Indeed. The mind boggles at the idea. Couldn't I just as easily claim that a normal human is stronger in DBZ?

GoC
2008-05-19, 10:23 PM
That's confirmation bias: You assume DBZ is weaker than 40k, so when you are confronted with contrary evidence, you dismiss the evidence by presuming the planets are weaker.
Not at all. I thought the terrain was weak before I'd even heard of WH 40K or even posted on these forums.
It's fairly common in media for planets to be weaker but DBZ takes it to the extreme.
Unless the power levels are really wierd (probably not even related to the natural numbers in "real" power. maybe the complex numbers?) then weak planets seems as good an explanation as any.

Rutee: That still leaves the wierd power levels and numerous violations of common sense. It also means DBZ is less related to the real world then Teen Titans or Bugs Bunny.

Rutee
2008-05-19, 10:58 PM
Unless the power levels are really wierd (probably not even related to the natural numbers in "real" power. maybe the complex numbers?) then weak planets seems as good an explanation as any.
You're attempting to apply physics. Let's ignore for a fact that physics doesn't work.

A weaker planet would be less sound structurally, yes? How would you do that, pray tell?


Rutee: That still leaves the wierd power levels and numerous violations of common sense. It also means DBZ is less related to the real world then Teen Titans or Bugs Bunny.

*Blinks* You thought Teen Titans was less realistic somehow?

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-20, 03:50 AM
Not quite. I'm claiming that if the power progression is linear like the person I was responding to mentioned, then a single battleship would be more than enough.
There's also the way inanimate materials are much weaker in DBZ then in WH 40K as Oslecamo has pointed out.

*Cough.* Wtf?

Inanimate materials are not weaker in DBZ, the level of power that the fighters possess is just ridiculous. The reason everything else is perceived as weak, except for clothes, can be logically explained:

DBZ fighters are so powerful because of channeling their Ki, no? And this Ki can be measured by advanced technology which led to the use of 'Power Levels' in the Saiyajin and Frieza sagas.

Suppose that in hand-to-hand combat, the fighters are not ACTUALLY any physically stronger or tougher than any human such as (dare I say it) Mr. Satan could be. They're at the peak of physical human condition, but they're not of superhuman physical capability. Evidence for this comes from just before the Cell Games, when Krillin (bless his little heart) throws a rock at pretty low speeds at sleeping SSJ Goku theorising that Goku would blow it to pieces - wrong, it hits Goku in the head, hurts him (despite being a rock thrown with no real power) and starts a fight between the two.

Now that leads us to Ki. The reason they can punch rocks into rubble, fly through cliff faces with nary a scratch, and why getting hit never seems to vaporise their clothes when it can vaporise solid rock. Simply put, in order to fight in hand-to-hand more effectively they wrap their Ki around themselves, creating a sort of defensive and offensive bubble. Channeling their extra Ki into their fists for attacks, to the point of impact for defence, or storing it for later. This is then visually represented by the energy aura that surrounds them, which grows bigger and brighter depending on how much Ki the warrior in question is channeling.

This theory is then supported by the fact that extremely powerful attacks, or attacks that catch the opponent offguard, can leave clothes ragged, or even destroyed, as they break through the fighter's ki bubble and actually damage what's on the other side - body and clothing alike.

I think that is a far more logical and scientific approach than 'zomg the planet and materials are teh weak'...

Oslecamo
2008-05-20, 08:04 AM
Yeah, but we also see a lot of normal people who eat those uber attacks and live to tell the tale.

For example, in the last arc, last fight, Bulma apears with a machine to power up Vegeta up. The uber powerfull galazy destroying enemy ends up realizing this and shoots at the machine, blowing it up in tiny pieces and leaving down a crater, but Bulma, who was right at its side, comes out from the explosion almost unscratched.

Now unless Bulma has gone trough some serious Ki training that we didn't heard off, then she should also have been blown to pieces, or at least have been severly hurt by the shrnappel.

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-20, 08:10 AM
Yeah, but we also see a lot of normal people who eat those uber attacks and live to tell the tale.

For example, in the last arc, last fight, Bulma apears with a machine to power up Vegeta up. The uber powerfull galazy destroying enemy ends up realizing this and shoots at the machine, blowing it up in tiny pieces and leaving down a crater, but Bulma, who was right at its side, comes out from the explosion almost unscratched.

Now unless Bulma has gone trough some serious Ki training that we didn't heard off, then she should also have been blown to pieces, or at least have been severly hurt by the shrnappel.

That was for dramatic effect, nothing else...they didn't want to kill the character, just stop her from achieving something and increase drama that way, therefore she survived the explosion. It's called "plot armour" and almost every series has it in one form or another, 40k included (in fact 40k likes to take it to extremes sometimes...)

Rutee
2008-05-20, 09:11 AM
I'm surprised. Doesn't GRIMDARK universe just off people whenever?

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-20, 09:16 AM
I'm surprised. Doesn't GRIMDARK universe just off people whenever?

I consider terminator being stomped for example, as much as people want to think otherwise, as plot armour saving its life. The Titan is undoubtedly made of adamantium too, and much much much heavier. It being pushed into the earth as the earth gave way before the adamantium armour is one thing, but if it had been something much harder and more resistant...well, I doubt he'd have come out relatively healthy...

Heroes in all universes tend to survive and overwhelm ridiculous odds because they still have something left in the story to achieve. Whether it's obvious or not. One of the most obvious examples of trying to make people not notice the plot armour was in the original Star Trek with the ever-famous redshirts. By killing a redshirt seemingly at will, it was supposed to incite fear and create mortality in the heroes. That of course backfired because we just knew the redshirt was going to die.

The heroes in almost all universes still have some form of plot armour though, so long as they still have something left to do in the plot. That means they can survive situations that might have otherwise killed them.

Rutee
2008-05-20, 09:21 AM
I had gotten the impression that WH40k fiction wasn't entirely written with a focus on characters, somehow, so that'd explain the confusion. I thought with few exceptions, it was a focus on a unit of mooks. Oh well.

Anteros
2008-05-20, 01:52 PM
People also don't understand that just because a character can do some super powerful attack, it doesn't mean that's all he does. It's a bit more logical to say "oh look, Joe farmer survived that attack...I guess he didn't get hit that hard" than it is to say "oh look, Joe Farmer survived that attack...He must be made out of adamantium!"

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-20, 07:51 PM
Just for the record, if this Jo Farmer is the one I'm thinking of, I don't think he was blasted by ki. If I remember right, he fired a rifle at Raditz, who then caught the bullet and threw it back at him.

GoC
2008-05-20, 08:11 PM
Inanimate materials are not weaker in DBZ, the level of power that the fighters possess is just ridiculous.
And inconsistent.
The power level 1 million people do less damage when they hit terrain then the power level 14K person who blows up planets with a very strange beam that messes with perspective.


The reason everything else is perceived as weak, except for clothes, can be logically explained:
Logic+DBZ is a rather strange combination...


DBZ fighters are so powerful because of channeling their Ki, no? And this Ki can be measured by advanced technology which led to the use of 'Power Levels' in the Saiyajin and Frieza sagas.

Suppose that in hand-to-hand combat, the fighters are not ACTUALLY any physically stronger or tougher than any human such as (dare I say it) Mr. Satan could be. They're at the peak of physical human condition, but they're not of superhuman physical capability. Evidence for this comes from just before the Cell Games, when Krillin (bless his little heart) throws a rock at pretty low speeds at sleeping SSJ Goku theorising that Goku would blow it to pieces - wrong, it hits Goku in the head, hurts him (despite being a rock thrown with no real power) and starts a fight between the two.

Now that leads us to Ki. The reason they can punch rocks into rubble, fly through cliff faces with nary a scratch, and why getting hit never seems to vaporise their clothes when it can vaporise solid rock. Simply put, in order to fight in hand-to-hand more effectively they wrap their Ki around themselves, creating a sort of defensive and offensive bubble. Channeling their extra Ki into their fists for attacks, to the point of impact for defence, or storing it for later. This is then visually represented by the energy aura that surrounds them, which grows bigger and brighter depending on how much Ki the warrior in question is channeling.

This theory is then supported by the fact that extremely powerful attacks, or attacks that catch the opponent offguard, can leave clothes ragged, or even destroyed, as they break through the fighter's ki bubble and actually damage what's on the other side - body and clothing alike.
That is quite an interesting and accurate analysis, however it leaves many things unexplained (Joe farmer, ki attacks that miss, the way things explode) and fails to address the point regarding how power levels work. What's you theory regarding power levels? Linear, exponential, weird?


You're attempting to apply physics. Let's ignore for a fact that physics doesn't work.
Why do you keep claiming I'm applying physics?:smallconfused:


A weaker planet would be less sound structurally, yes? How would you do that, pray tell?
It would either have a combination of two things:
A. Reduced structural integrity due to reduced strength in the bonds between silicon molecules (rock is mostly silicon, right?).
B. Different equation for gravity.
Or just have inanimate DBZ material explode when taking a direct chi attack.


*Blinks* You thought Teen Titans was less realistic somehow?
Less realistic than DBZ?
Not sure I understand the question so I'll ask:
Have you watched a few episodes of TT? They also have inanimate materials being extremely weak and quite a few other strange things...

Rutee
2008-05-20, 08:24 PM
[quote]It would either have a combination of two things:
A. Reduced structural integrity due to reduced strength in the bonds between silicon molecules (rock is mostly silicon, right?).
B. Different equation for gravity.
Or just have inanimate DBZ material explode when taking a direct chi attack.
The world doesn't have enough lead balloons to handle the ridonkulousness of this line of logic, really. I have no conclusion to draw besides the fact that you're just trying to mess with people.

Anteros
2008-05-20, 08:42 PM
People are trying to sound scientific and failing miserably. Like was stated earlier, why would you randomly assume terrain in DBZ is weaker? Couldn't you just as easily assume that people are stronger? What you're doing isn't science, it's pseudo science. It's the same type of "science" that religious wackjobs use to "prove" the Earth is only 2000 years old.

And seriously...you give the example that power level 1,000,000 people do less damage to terrain when they randomly hit it than a 14,000 person does with his attack specifically designed to destroy a planet? People keep grabbing random feats which are clearly not at the peak of power that these characters are capable of, and then claiming that those feats are examples of their power at its limits. Just because power level 86 trillion Goku doesn't destroy the Earth with every attack, it does not mean he can't.

People are really grasping at straws here.

Talkkno
2008-05-20, 10:48 PM
I consider terminator being stomped for example, as much as people want to think otherwise, as plot armour saving its life. The Titan is undoubtedly made of adamantium too, and much much much heavier. It being pushed into the earth as the earth gave way before the adamantium armour is one thing, but if it had been something much harder and more resistant...well, I doubt he'd have come out relatively healthy...

.

You do realize Space Marines are so superhuman that they are barely considered "human" by any standard? They are all seven foot tall superhuman monsters with bulletproof rib-cages, the ability to spit acid and eat poison, duplicates of various major organs, an altered genetic code, and a variety of other assuredly "inhuman" augmentations. Not counting that they have the skill and equipment equal at least to any ten members of the Imperial Guard.(Don't laugh, they are pretty well trained, its just a bog standard human just doesn't look like much compared to alien races out in the Milky way.)

Anteros
2008-05-20, 10:55 PM
You do realize Space Marines are so superhuman that they are barely considered "human" by any standard? They are all seven foot tall superhuman monsters with bulletproof rib-cages, the ability to spit acid and eat poison, duplicates of various major organs, an altered genetic code, and a variety of other assuredly "inhuman" augmentations. Not counting that they have the skill and equipment equal at least to any ten members of the Imperial Guard.(Don't laugh, they are pretty well trained, its just a bog standard human just doesn't look like much compared to alien races out in the Milky way.)

How does any of that refute their point in any way?

Dervag
2008-05-20, 11:33 PM
You do realize Space Marines are so superhuman that they are barely considered "human" by any standard? They are all seven foot tall superhuman monsters with bulletproof rib-cages, the ability to spit acid and eat poison, duplicates of various major organs, an altered genetic code, and a variety of other assuredly "inhuman" augmentations. Not counting that they have the skill and equipment equal at least to any ten members of the Imperial Guard.(Don't laugh, they are pretty well trained, its just a bog standard human just doesn't look like much compared to alien races out in the Milky way.)You're right, but if you have a mecha the size of a small office building step on them they're still jam. This was all about the Terminator armor.

Talkkno
2008-05-21, 12:41 AM
You're right, but if you have a mecha the size of a small office building step on them they're still jam. This was all about the Terminator armor.

I just wanted to point out that perhaps the more robust physiology of a Space Marine might account partially of the rather outstanding case, where a normal person would have been killed likely in that instance.

Oslecamo
2008-05-21, 03:05 AM
You do realize Space Marines are so superhuman that they are barely considered "human" by any standard? They are all seven foot tall superhuman monsters with bulletproof rib-cages, the ability to spit acid and eat poison, duplicates of various major organs, an altered genetic code, and a variety of other assuredly "inhuman" augmentations. Not counting that they have the skill and equipment equal at least to any ten members of the Imperial Guard.(Don't laugh, they are pretty well trained, its just a bog standard human just doesn't look like much compared to alien races out in the Milky way.)

Woah woah calm down. Space marines wear armour for a reason. They're not bullet proof. Harder than normal yes, but in no way bullet proof. And even power armor can easily be destroyed with heavier weapons

They only have one duplicated major organ, wich is the heart. They can spit acid, but it's nothing too strong. In the fluff it says a space marine would take hours to chew trough a prison's metal bars.

They can eat poison, but it it's injected directed in their blood they're screwed, since the anti poison system was designed to allow the SM to eat strange alien things in case of necessity.

The space marine being stomped was a very special case. First it was a blue wolf chapter SM, and they're the biggest toughest space marines around. Second it was one legendary veteran SM who was so strong even the orks maked a monument at his honor after he died.

Terminator armor contains a microscopic shard of the emperor's own armor, wich allows it to ocasionally sustain insane amounts of damage. In this case being stomped by a titan.

Those are the finest elite of the space marines, not the norm, less than 1% of the total SM population.

Selrahc
2008-05-21, 07:18 AM
Harder than normal yes, but in no way bullet proof.

Human bones can make bullets glance off them in the right circumstances. Space marines bones are both thicker and stronger, as well as being engineered to cover over areas they normally would not in order to provide greater protection.

So there is a good chance that they have bulletproof, or at least bullet resistant skeletons, on a par with something like kevlar.

Oslecamo
2008-05-21, 07:31 AM
Maybe normal bullets from low caliber guns.

Heavy machine guns/bolters/ lasgun direct hits/shuriken canons/grenades all the other weapons in the future, not really much of a chance.

And anyway bullets don't kill you because they break your bones. Bullets kill you because they disable your main soft organs and/or make you bleed to death.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/2/

The only extra area covered by the bones is the chest. The lower torso is still as vulnerable as ever. Not to mention eyes and other soft spots.

And here we have an oficial description of a marine screwed by a mortar shell. Not an atomic bomb, not a titan steping on him, not a direct lascanon hit, a mortar shell. That's all it takes, even with reinforced bones and power armor.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/spacemarines/initiation/3/

Selrahc
2008-05-21, 07:35 AM
Maybe normal bullets from low caliber guns.


Thats all I was talking about.


And anyway bullets don't kill you because they break your bones. Bullets kill you because they disable your main soft organs and/or make you bleed to death.

Sure. They aren't that good at that against space marines though because of the fast blood clotting. With the brain being covered by the very dense skull, and the hearts and lungs being covered by the ribs... Space Marines are substantially better able to cope with bullet wounds.

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-21, 07:42 AM
And inconsistent.
The power level 1 million people do less damage when they hit terrain then the power level 14K person who blows up planets with a very strange beam that messes with perspective.

There are some inconsistencies, but that can only be expected. Inconsistency mainly went down the toilet after the Frieza saga (remember at the end of the Frieza Saga the climactic battle between Goku and Frieza ended up tearing the world apart - even before Frieza deliberately set the planet to go boom, the planet was starting to look like swiss cheese and the landscape was absolutely devastated.


Logic+DBZ is a rather strange combination...

Not arguing with that, Mr. Fingolfin. But there's no reason one can't attempt to apply logical analysis to anything.


That is quite an interesting and accurate analysis, however it leaves many things unexplained (Joe farmer, ki attacks that miss, the way things explode)...

Joe farmer? I don't see why he needs explanation. He was killed almost instantly - he fired a rifle at Raditz, Raditz caught the bullet and then flicked it back at him, probably penetrating him and sending the bullet flying into the ground. What's inconsistent with my theory about that? If he uses his ki to augment his speed and strength, then it's perfectly sensible.

Ki attacks that miss - these attacks are assumed to be controlled by the user of them, either in the initial aiming, post-firing guidance, or both. Similarly, the opponent can use his ki to enhance speed in order to dodge, or to deflect or just plain resist a ki attack. Just because they're superhuman with ki abilities doesn't mean that they're perfect, they can miss and make mistakes in a combat situation just like everyone else.

As for the way things explode, that IS more difficult to explain, however, as I said before, just because something is of planet-destroying capability doesn't mean it will always be. I'm sure the fighters hold back a lot of the time because they don't want to destroy the planet for whatever reason - and when they're not prepared to hold back, it's made clear that they're aiming to destroy the planet, and that their attack can quite easily succeed if nobody stops them.

That said, I DO think that they made Master Roshi, Piccolo and Vegeta too powerful too early (Master Roshi with his subpar power level of 139 destroys the moon with his Kamehameha (actual ki output of the Kamehameha wave is unknown, but based on other numbers given, it was likely in the area of 360, Piccolo later destroys the moon AGAIN (?_?) with an assumed power level of around 1,300-1,400 with the Makankosappo. Vegeta in comparison destroys an entire planet with a power level of around 18,000 with almost no powering up or effort shown.


...and fails to address the point regarding how power levels work. What's you theory regarding power levels? Linear, exponential, weird?

Power levels are almost inexplicable. The rate at which fighters increase in power is not only inconsistent but often nigh exponential in nature. It gets really out of hand after the Frieza saga, but by the end of the Frieza saga you can start to see it coming out - the way Frieza's power level starts off at 530,000 to Vegeta's 400,000, and then Frieza rises to 3,500,000 in his true form. Vegeta, in comparison, healed after being battered by Frieza, is suddenly at 2,500,000. Goku, who was at 180,000 before his healing, is suddenly at 3,300,000. Now, Gohan and Goku kind of make sense - Goku was originally intended to be the true Super Saiyajin in the storyline, and inexplicably large power jumps were always part of Gohan's storyline (later culminating in him becoming the most powerful fighter in the universe - twice.)

But much of it I can't honestly explain. Power levels jump at the author's whim, there's no real logic or reason to it, it's simply driven by the power of plot...


You do realize Space Marines are so superhuman that they are barely considered "human" by any standard? They are all seven foot tall superhuman monsters with bulletproof rib-cages, the ability to spit acid and eat poison, duplicates of various major organs, an altered genetic code, and a variety of other assuredly "inhuman" augmentations. Not counting that they have the skill and equipment equal at least to any ten members of the Imperial Guard.(Don't laugh, they are pretty well trained, its just a bog standard human just doesn't look like much compared to alien races out in the Milky way.)

Your point? Just because they're superhumans doesn't mean they won't die if this (http://www.ifelix.co.uk/gamesday/images/DSC00060_JPG.jpg) steps on them. The Terminator armour saved him, but my point was that he was lucky. If it weren't for the shard of the emperor's armour and the fact that he was crushed into soil and not, say, solid igneous rock, he might not have survived.

---- -=-=- ----- -=-=- -----

Now all of that aside, there might be something that the 40k universe CAN do to compete with the Dragonball universe - defeat is difficult, but they might compete. The Imperium is highly unlikely to pursue this path, but certain other technologically advanced and pragmatic forces (Necrons, Tau, possibly Eldar) might see the advantage of it. Simply put, in DBZ, we have seen that technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Earthlings_in_Dragon_Ball#Dr._Gero) can (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Earthlings_in_Dragon_Ball#Artificial_Human _.2317) compete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Earthlings_in_Dragon_Ball#Artificial_Human _.2318) with (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Earthlings_in_Dragon_Ball#Artificial_Human _.2316)
the (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Earthlings_in_Dragon_Ball#Artificial_Human _.2319) Z fighters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_%28Dragon_Ball%29).

Whether or not they could engineer an android or bio-android capable of contesting with the Saiyajins is another matter, of course... Also, there's the possibility that existing GRIMDARKs might have the ki necessary to become talented warriors, particularly the Eldar - whether or not they can get this training is another question, but our heroes (particularly Goku) can be pretty thickheaded sometimes... Of course, even if they receive that training there's no guarantees they can do anything against Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, Trunks, Piccolo, etc...

nothingclever
2008-05-21, 04:16 PM
Unless it has been specified somewhere that we can only use specific times in DBZ, characters eventually reach power levels in the billions and trillions so I think DBZ would win. Characters can fuse together too which is part of how they can get that powerful.

GoC
2008-05-21, 04:51 PM
The world doesn't have enough lead balloons to handle the ridonkulousness of this line of logic, really. I have no conclusion to draw besides the fact that you're just trying to mess with people.
Well that's certainly polite of you...
Why do you consider that line of thought is ridiculous?


People are trying to sound scientific and failing miserably. Like was stated earlier, why would you randomly assume terrain in DBZ is weaker? Couldn't you just as easily assume that people are stronger? What you're doing isn't science, it's pseudo science. It's the same type of "science" that religious wackjobs use to "prove" the Earth is only 2000 years old.
Wow. Lay back on the accusations.
I'll use bulletpoints:
A. I'm not trying to sound scientific (really what's the point?), just putting forward a theory of how DBZ works.
B. Randomly? Seems like a fine assumption with very few holes. People being stronger is a possibility but I'm so used to using humans as a baseline in vs. threads that I didn't think of it (it also implies every human in DBZ has some pretty strong ki and requires a very different history of warfare). Besides isn't it better to assume humans are the same everywhere than assume Newton's laws are the same everywhere?
C. It's a theory that is reasonably consistent with observation. That, my friend, is SCIENCE!


And seriously...you give the example that power level 1,000,000 people do less damage to terrain when they randomly hit it than a 14,000 person does with his attack specifically designed to destroy a planet?
So how does this "attack specifically designed to destroy a planet" work exactly? If it is a special attack does that mean that Goku wouldn't be able to destroy the planet with an ordinary attack?

btw: I'm still waiting for someone to put forward a theory of power levels.


Not arguing with that, Mr. Fingolfin. But there's no reason one can't attempt to apply logical analysis to anything.
Just making a lighthearted joke.


Joe farmer? I don't see why he needs explanation. He was killed almost instantly - he fired a rifle at Raditz, Raditz caught the bullet and then flicked it back at him, probably penetrating him and sending the bullet flying into the ground. What's inconsistent with my theory about that? If he uses his ki to augment his speed and strength, then it's perfectly sensible.
I presumed there was more than one example of an ordinary human resisting such attacks.


Ki attacks that miss - these attacks are assumed to be controlled by the user of them, either in the initial aiming, post-firing guidance, or both. Similarly, the opponent can use his ki to enhance speed in order to dodge, or to deflect or just plain resist a ki attack. Just because they're superhuman with ki abilities doesn't mean that they're perfect, they can miss and make mistakes in a combat situation just like everyone else.
I wasn't clear. I meant that the attacks that miss and hit terrain cause only relatively small explosions.


As for the way things explode, that IS more difficult to explain, however, as I said before, just because something is of planet-destroying capability doesn't mean it will always be. I'm sure the fighters hold back a lot of the time because they don't want to destroy the planet for whatever reason - and when they're not prepared to hold back, it's made clear that they're aiming to destroy the planet, and that their attack can quite easily succeed if nobody stops them.
If they're holding back then why do they still get injured be these relatively tiny attacks? Even in serious fights.


Power levels are almost inexplicable. The rate at which fighters increase in power is not only inconsistent but often nigh exponential in nature. It gets really out of hand after the Frieza saga, but by the end of the Frieza saga you can start to see it coming out - the way Frieza's power level starts off at 530,000 to Vegeta's 400,000, and then Frieza rises to 3,500,000 in his true form. Vegeta, in comparison, healed after being battered by Frieza, is suddenly at 2,500,000. Goku, who was at 180,000 before his healing, is suddenly at 3,300,000. Now, Gohan and Goku kind of make sense - Goku was originally intended to be the true Super Saiyajin in the storyline, and inexplicably large power jumps were always part of Gohan's storyline (later culminating in him becoming the most powerful fighter in the universe - twice.)
You misunderstood. I mean that power levels are stated to be linear (100 is twice as powerful as 50) but in practice they aren't otherwise planet destruction would be impossible and they'd be beaten by a single WH 40K battleship. Thus the power ratings are strange.

nothingclever
2008-05-21, 05:23 PM
The planets are not destroyed because they are held together by the power of plot. Both good and bad people conveniently do less damage to planets with their attacks because protecting Earth from Freeza/Cell/Buu/Androids/Whatever would be impossible if physics worked in their battles. That doesn't mean they aren't planet or even solar system destroying when they want them to be.

One in-character reason is that the characters can direct their attacks after launching them which doesn't account for everything though because these questions simply aren't supposed to be asked. I don't know if energy attacks have ever been clearly made to dissipate on command but its probably possible assuming the amount of energy being used is not too much for the wielder to control. Of course then there would need to be an explanation for why some bad guys who have no interest in controlling Earth don't just let it be destroyed while they fight. That'd be a much better way of making Goku or other Z fighters hold back when they know not only will some bystanders be killed in the fight, the entire planet is at risk.

It's pretty clear attacks should be at a planet destroying whether they destroy them or not since Goku will use moves such as the Spirit Bomb on Freeza on Namek which should have destroyed the planet but only left a large crater even though it was probably just as strong as Freeza's attack if not stronger which made the planet start falling apart in the first place.

Oslecamo
2008-05-21, 05:30 PM
The DBZ universe is so full of incosistencies that it seems like a cheese.

For example, main characters can eat those uber powerfull blasts to the face and live to tell the tale, thanks to their ki protection or whatever.

However, if world shatering attacks aren't enough to pierce said defense, why do they insist so much in trying to defeat each other with just martial attacks?

Are their fists stronger than the blasts? No, the biggest destructions is always caused by the energy balls.

Thus, either all the main fighters have amibas instead of brains, trying to defeat the enemy with just punches and kiks, or the energy blasts aren't that powerfull in the first place, and it's the terrain that's fairly weak.



It's almost like you have two fully armed destroyer ships batling each other and the captain on each side decides that instead of artilery, missiles or torpedos they pull out their personal pistol and try to shoot down the enemy destroyer with just that. Sure, bullets are a lot cheaper than artilery shells and missiles and whatnot, but it's pretty much a waste of time.

FdL
2008-05-21, 08:06 PM
The most intelligent readers among you will obviously realize that this key concept of "plot armour" actually invalidates the very existance of Vs. threads, right? Unless you're talking of moderately measurable things like game systems, which even then are probably not comparable between them.

Rutee
2008-05-21, 08:23 PM
The most intelligent readers among you will obviously realize that this key concept of "plot armour" actually invalidates the very existance of Vs. threads, right? Unless you're talking of moderately measurable things like game systems, which even then are probably not comparable between them.

"Come on, Lizzie Borden could totally take Anne Frank in a fist fight!"

chiasaur11
2008-05-21, 08:51 PM
"Come on, Lizzie Borden could totally take Anne Frank in a fist fight!"

Well, yeah.
Now, if we were talking HELLEN KELLER and Lizzie Borden, we'd have a fight.

LBO
2008-05-22, 02:03 AM
"Come on, Lizzie Borden could totally take Anne Frank in a fist fight!"
Well... yeah. As we all know, Anne Frank didn't have any kind of plot armour. =\

Oslecamo
2008-05-22, 09:51 AM
Well... yeah. As we all know, Anne Frank didn't have any kind of plot armour. =\

If there's ever makes an anime based on Anne Franck, you can bet that she's gonna stomp half of the german troops by herself before going down in a blaze of glory.

EDIT:

BEHOLD THE TRUE POWER OF ANNE FRANCK!

http://br.youtube.com/watch?v=6FnD1dYjisE

Rutee
2008-05-22, 09:54 AM
Well... yeah. As we all know, Anne Frank didn't have any kind of plot armour. =\

"Well, I don't know, Anne Frank had a survivor's spirit, temperred by the holocaust"

GoC
2008-05-22, 12:18 PM
The planets are not destroyed because they are held together by the power of plot. Both good and bad people conveniently do less damage to planets with their attacks because protecting Earth from Freeza/Cell/Buu/Androids/Whatever would be impossible if physics worked in their battles. That doesn't mean they aren't planet or even solar system destroying when they want them to be.

Isn't it just as likely that the planets got destroyed by power of the plot?

Lord Iames Osari
2008-05-22, 12:43 PM
Not really. The Bug Planet Vegeta blew up was basically filler, with no relevance to the plot whatsoever - except as an opportunity to establish just how evil and powerful Vegeta was.

GoC
2008-05-22, 01:44 PM
Not really. The Bug Planet Vegeta blew up was basically filler, with no relevance to the plot whatsoever - except as an opportunity to establish just how evil and powerful Vegeta was.

Sounds like plot power to me...

Rutee
2008-05-22, 02:10 PM
In the sense that all power displays are plot power, yes.

nothingclever
2008-05-22, 07:55 PM
A planet explosion could be considered for plot but as Rutee said it is pretty much only to the same extent that everything else is.

It's made very clear that characters can easily level mountains or smash through any amount of metal machinery or walls, and blow up any super spaceship so if they amplified their power by X amount they could take out planets or at least cause enough damage to make them collapse. Those mountain/metal/spaceship destroying scenes are basically to show the lowest extent of their power and these events aren't really important to the plot besides showing how awesome characters are.

If you are showing how awesome a character is you might as well state that display of power as being as great as it would be in the real world or whatever since they are not doing these things because they have to, to advance the story. Tanks and missiles fired at the characters are not made to suddenly be pathetic compared to our current technology, they are to show how strong the character is when not even trying. The characters don't need to beat the military because it is never their actual enemy or important to the plot. Those scenes are to show how superpowered characters compare to our world. If a small power level like 100 or 1000 or whatever can break a mountain the far greater ones can definitely break planets easily.

Even if the power level needed to break a real life planet is much higher than a DBZ one Goku at the end of the show has a power level in the billions and even trillions. So if you say characters can only really have planet destroying force at 100,000 or 1,000,000 or 100,000,000 instead of 14,000 or whatever Vegeta had when he destroyed one Goku still has many times more than that level of power whether levels are linear or exponential.

After looking at some sites Goku has 10 trillion after he absorbs the dragonballs.
His fusion with Vegeta as Gogeta at SS4 is 23,400,000,000,000.
Goku SS4 is 630,000,000,000 without help
With an energy donation he is 5,000,000,000,000

Plus Goku has Kaoken or whatever the move is where he calls it out and says x1/2/3/whatever which multiplies his power by that amount when using the technique. He also has special attacks which allow him to reach much higher power levels than his base amount. He's able to use kaoken and these special attacks at the same time too.

I think plot magic being used to stop every punch thrown from destroying a planet is more likely than making planets weak enough for characters to destroy them. Being strong enough really isn't an issue as the series progresses.

Another reason power levels wouldn't need to be exponential is that linear increases in power have exponential effects anyway. Like if you try to strike something and pierce it, once you have enough force to initially begin digging into the object any additional force will let you travel the rest of the way through much further.

GoC
2008-05-22, 08:08 PM
In order to respond to that I need to know one thing: Can a power level 1 person be killed by a normal sword?

nothingclever
2008-05-22, 08:15 PM
Yes, assuming a sword in dbz is considered "normal" to our world or whatever.
Power level 1 people in dbz seems to be the same as us and can be killed by the same things.

I'm guessing you'll probably say there is an inconsistency in that power level 100 people are not 100 times stronger than power level 1 people. It could be argued that since normal people never learn to use energy blasts or special techniques like flight that this difference is irrelevant. A power level 100 may actually be much stronger than a power level 1 person if they both used ki attacks even though their regular attributes are the same.

BTW: OMG I FEEL AWESOME I"M PLAYING AGE OF CONAN.

Anteros
2008-05-22, 08:56 PM
Well Master Roshi was about the 100 range and he blew up the fricking moon. So yes, a power level 100 person is easily 100X more powerful than a power level 1. (Most people were about a 5 or so as I recall, with trained (non ki using) fighters being around 10-15)

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-22, 11:00 PM
The average human (Jo Farmer) has a power level of 5. Master Roshi has a power level of 139 and he blew up the fricking moon.

Lord Iames Osari
2008-05-22, 11:10 PM
Sounds like plot power to me...

If a plot event takes place specifically to demonstrate how powerful a character is (or that they possess a specific power), you cannot then turn around and argue that they are somehow less powerful than that. It's nonsensical.

It's like arguing that because the climactic scene in Goblet of Fire was obviously a plot-driven scene, Harry's wand does not, in fact, possess the power to neutralize Voldemort's in the way depicted.

Oslecamo
2008-05-23, 04:24 AM
The average human (Jo Farmer) has a power level of 5. Master Roshi has a power level of 139 and he blew up the fricking moon.

The same moon that apeared some years later?

Hmm, this could make some sense. They can't actually blow up stuff, they can however banish them to another dimension temporarly.

Solo
2008-05-23, 04:36 AM
The same moon that apeared some years later?


That's no moon...

Cybren
2008-05-23, 04:49 AM
The same moon that apeared some years later?

Hmm, this could make some sense. They can't actually blow up stuff, they can however banish them to another dimension temporarly.

Not only did it appear some years later, but if i recall correctly piccolo blew it up too

Oslecamo
2008-05-23, 04:55 AM
That's no moon...

So what was it?

Verruckt
2008-05-23, 05:05 AM
it's my ass, now can somebody tell me why this damned thread hasn't died yet? *goes to find power stake and Eucharist*

Lostintransit
2008-05-23, 07:49 AM
Not only did it appear some years later, but if i recall correctly piccolo blew it up too

What actually happened was that the moon got blown up in Dragonball (the original series) but they used the power of the dragonballs to return it to existance (needing it to beat up piccolo in the final fight, go super giant monkeys!)

regards

Solo
2008-05-23, 07:52 AM
So what was it?

... that's a space station.

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-23, 08:13 AM
So what was it?

Honestly, I'm ashamed of you...

Verruckt
2008-05-23, 08:30 AM
I'm suddenly overcome with the urge to draw someone destroying aldderan with a lazer fired from their ass...

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-23, 08:35 AM
I'm suddenly overcome with the urge to draw someone destroying aldderan with a lazer fired from their ass...

http://hy-drau-lx.net/images/SHOOP.jpg
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Beam/Boom.jpg

Verruckt
2008-05-23, 08:54 AM
exactly, but with more Malaysia, and ass

GoC
2008-05-23, 09:21 AM
I'm guessing you'll probably say there is an inconsistency in that power level 100 people are not 100 times stronger than power level 1 people.
Yeah, that's what I'm claiming. Why is a power level 14000 person several trillion times more powerful than a level 10 in some things but only 140 times better at other things and even only 10 or so in something else?


If a plot event takes place specifically to demonstrate how powerful a character is (or that they possess a specific power), you cannot then turn around and argue that they are somehow less powerful than that. It's nonsensical.

I was just pointing out that claiming "plot power" can go both ways and actually makes more sense going my way.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-05-23, 10:29 AM
The same moon that apeared some years later?

Hmm, this could make some sense. They can't actually blow up stuff, they can however banish them to another dimension temporarly.Only in the dub.

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-23, 10:55 AM
Only in the dub.

I lol'd.

Death is too scary a concept for children, let's just send them all to the next dimension!

Anteros
2008-05-23, 07:22 PM
Well to be fair, they absolutely know that upon dying they rematerialize in another dimension, so it isn't really dying like we think of it anyway.

Rutee
2008-05-24, 03:17 AM
Er, no, they go to the afterlife. If we knew for a fact there was an afterlife, it'd be exactly like death as we know it. And since they wished people back from the dead, they do in fact know it.

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-24, 05:34 AM
Point taken, but in the original they say either 'die' or 'send you to hell' as I recall, not 'take a trip to the next dimension'... It's just trying to make it more kid-friendly, and a bad way of doing so I must add.

That said this has little to do with the real debate. I go back to my previous point about androids. Do you think radical inquisitors/chaos/tau/eldar/necrons could engineer an android or bio-android fast enough to make a dent? And think of it this way - if they build enough, even if the Z fighters can take them down, they're a better distraction than anything else in existence and can quite probably keep our heroes tied up long enough to start damaging the earth.

Rutee
2008-05-24, 06:52 AM
No, I don't think any of the above could. If they could, wouldn't they have without the Z Fighters' intervention?

Saithis Bladewing
2008-05-24, 07:03 AM
In theory, maybe, but that would imply that they had knowledge of ki as a possibility. After the initial fights with the Z senshi, which would likely end in failure, at least a few of the factions would undoubtedly be asking themselves how unarmed, unarmoured, seemingly ordinary people could destroy anything and everything the galaxy can put before them...which they can. I'm not saying it'd come quickly, but if anyone, the Tau are innovative enough to try and think of a technological method of doing this. Dr. Gero did it in just a couple decades of work (admittedly with more knowledge of Ki), but the 40k universe has plenty of time. The reason they 'haven't yet' would be logically explained as having NO exposure to ki as a viable option in battle.

Rutee
2008-05-24, 07:08 AM
I genuinely do not think that the races of 40k have much of a chance of discovering it without having it explained from beginning to end. The Tau are kinda the only people with a chance, and likely only a slim one. Why? Because everyone else has failed to notice completely naturally generated energy that exists within each living being for longer then all of human history (In the DBZ-verse). And isn't it implied that Ki users have been around a lot longer in the DBZ-verse, simply that they're very rare among humans?

Eita
2008-05-24, 02:34 PM
Ki users were deemed heretical, and as they were not needed to make sure that the Imperium didn't fall apart, they were killed. Either that or everyone does have Ki. They just call it something else.

Also, from what the OP said, shouldn't this be the Emperor and Goku tag-teaming the C'tan and Chaos Gods?

Rutee
2008-05-24, 03:03 PM
Ki users were deemed heretical, and as they were not needed to make sure that the Imperium didn't fall apart, they were killed. Either that or everyone does have Ki. They just call it something else.
Well, no, that's not much of a free pass. There's you know, everyone else. Notwithstanding that if it were found when the Emperor was around, it probably would have been embraced, since there's no inherent risk. It makes humanity stronger, full stop. There's literally no catch, and based on the events of the series, we can see that 'ordinary' (Which is to say, tech that doesn't specifically emulate it) technology isn't inherently better.


Also, from what the OP said, shouldn't this be the Emperor and Goku tag-teaming the C'tan and Chaos Gods?

Pretty much.

Gorbash
2008-05-24, 03:15 PM
Also, from what the OP said, shouldn't this be the Emperor and Goku tag-teaming the C'tan and Chaos Gods?

Actually, OP asked if Earth in DBZ universe could withstand ALL of the WH40K universe. Meaning - Tau, IG, Marines, Chaos Marines, Orks, Eldars, Dark Eldars, Tyranids, Necrons who are all trying to dominate/destroy Earth, could residents of the DBZ Earth defend themselves.

Simply put, no. Earth has a finite number of citizens, whereas Orks, Chaos, Tyranids, IG do not. They'd be overwhelmed by sheer numbers, if not the awesomeness of the WH40K universe.

Rutee
2008-05-24, 03:16 PM
Simply put, no. Earth has a finite number of citizens, whereas Orks, Chaos, Tyranids, IG do not. They'd be overwhelmed by sheer numbers, if not the awesomeness of the WH40K universe.

No, they /might/ be overwhelmed by Psykers, but numbers are meaningless.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-24, 03:18 PM
if not the awesomeness of the WH40K universe.

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/1192/961is3.jpg

The defence rests its case.

Gorbash
2008-05-24, 03:28 PM
No, they /might/ be overwhelmed by Psykers, but numbers are meaningless.

Ok then, Chaos Gods, C'Thans, Khaine, Tyranid Hive Mind, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Space Marine Chaplains. Billions and billions of them.

And depending on the timeline, the Earth is even more screwed if we're taking into account the Emperor and Primarchs.

Rutee
2008-05-24, 03:31 PM
Ok then, Chaos Gods, C'Thans, Khaine, Tyranid Hive Mind, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Tau, Space Marine Chaplains. Billions and billions of them.

And depending on the timeline, the Earth is even more screwed if we're taking into account the Emperor and Primarchs.

The Primarchs can be beaten down, frankly. And SM Chaplains aren't what are needed. You need Alpha+. Which pretty much is "GoM, Gods, rare Eldar of either stripe, lots and lots and lots of Orks with a powerful WAAAAAAAGH!!!

And WTF!? C'tan are THE ANTI-PSYKER. They are /completely/ outside of, and vulnerable to, the warp. Don't just pick random powerful people, actually think about your examples.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-24, 03:33 PM
The Primarchs can be beaten down, frankly. And SM Chaplains aren't what are needed. You need Alpha+.

And WTF!? C'tan are THE ANTI-PSYKER. They are /completely/ outside of, and vulnerable to, the warp. Don't just pick random powerful people, actually think about your examples.

Psyker Primarchs. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Magnus_the_Red)

Rutee
2008-05-24, 03:34 PM
Psyker Primarchs. (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Magnus_the_Red)
I know about Magnus and Horus. They're the /exceptions/, not the rule.

Oslecamo
2008-05-24, 03:40 PM
I know about Magnus and Horus. They're the /exceptions/, not the rule.

3rd law of WH40K discussions:the exceptions ARE the rule.

If one marine gets stepd by a titan and survives, due to having terminator armor all marines can perfectly stand down an army of dancing titans playing cards and don't get even bothered, no matter what armor they actually have.

If one exceptional marine manages to be stealthy, all marines are invisible silent ninjas qho for some reason still didn't kill all the enemies of mankind during their sleep.

If one Marine receives a monomulecular chain sword as a praise for his services, all marines are sudenly equiped with monomulecular swords no matter what they did.

Every marine has the psychic level of the emperor, the best weapons in history, has the speciall abilities of all chapters and none of the drawbacks.

And etc etc.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-24, 03:41 PM
I know about Magnus and Horus. They're the /exceptions/, not the rule.

Yeah, but we has'em, nonetheless. Also, out of 20 Primarchs, there's two right there, Sanguinius seems to be unintentionally sending psychic visions out across the warp via his own bloodline, and Lorgar is a powerfully psychic daemon prince now. Horus and Magnus are probably the only two on a level comparable to Alpha+, but they all are mildly psychic.

Furthermore, Samus Aran the two lost primarchs undoubtedly have some sort of Marty-Sue level of power that can just sweep away worlds, or such-like. I wouldn't put it past GW to screw up so mightily, especially for a summer campaign or suchlike.


stuff

Let me tell you a story. There was a man. He was made of straw. The end.

Gorbash
2008-05-24, 04:00 PM
And WTF!? C'tan are THE ANTI-PSYKER. They are /completely/ outside of, and vulnerable to, the warp. Don't just pick random powerful people, actually think about your examples.

I picked C'tan because they're one of the strongest beings in the universe. They don't NEED psy powers. Seriously, they decimated the Old Ones just by being C'tan.

"The C'tan used the hatred of the Necrontyr towards the Old Ones and allowed themselves to be used as weapons in the War in Heaven, unleashing their raw power to destroy entire star systems and wipe out opposing species."

Oh and when they're killed, they just go into a nearby star and reform themselves.


They're the /exceptions/, not the rule.

Emperor is the rule, though.

Dode
2008-05-24, 04:18 PM
DBZ trumps everything with its terrible animation and nonsensical plot where a stray SSJ5 fart can blow up a galactic quadrant leading to power levels flying well past the limits of anything resembling coherency.


Seriously you can debate this using logical and cogent arguments all you like but once a plot device like FUUSSSIOOONN or Krillain dying for the 23rd times goes down and it pretty much is all thrown out the window.

Oslecamo
2008-05-24, 04:53 PM
Let me tell you a story. There was a man. He was made of straw. The end.

Impossible. If it's a man then it isn't made of straw. If it's made of straw then it isn't a man. Clearly a fallacy from your part.

Stop comiting fallacies. It's fallacious.

Translation: If I wanted to have a coherent discussion following the cheap rules of philosophy wich NOBODY who wins his life by talking bothers to use(read:politicians), I certainly wouldn't have come to a thread discussing the competition between two nonsense universes into an even more nonsensic battle.

Anteros
2008-05-24, 05:18 PM
To the people saying Goku would wake up the Emporer and team up with him...he might wake him up...but I honestly think Goku would get along better with the Orks or the Tau than the Imperium of Nazis. He might be initially attracted to them because they're humans, but I doubt it would stick once he learned a little about how they operate.

MeklorIlavator
2008-05-24, 05:39 PM
Considering the Empirour's own views, I think that he wouldn't be pleased with the current state of the Imperium, either.

Gorbash
2008-05-24, 05:39 PM
Oh please. The Emperor waking up? He is a shade of his former self, even if he DID wake up, I don't think he could even lift his head up.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-24, 06:01 PM
Impossible. If it's a man then it isn't made of straw. If it's made of straw then it isn't a man. Clearly a fallacy from your part.

Stop comiting fallacies. It's fallacious.

Translation: If I wanted to have a coherent discussion following the cheap rules of philosophy wich NOBODY who wins his life by talking bothers to use(read:politicians), I certainly wouldn't have come to a thread discussing the competition between two nonsense universes into an even more nonsensic battle.

Well, if you want to win arguments by the methods of 'politicians', and throw aside what you deride as 'the cheap rules of philosophy', then by all means troll, flame, and generally disregard all standards of civility, and logical debate. Just don't be surprised when, lol, ur b&.

Anteros
2008-05-24, 08:10 PM
Well, if you want to win arguments by the methods of 'politicians', and throw aside what you deride as 'the cheap rules of philosophy', then by all means troll, flame, and generally disregard all standards of civility, and logical debate. Just don't be surprised when, lol, ur b&.

If you hate it so much then maybe you should go and make/counter some arguments rather than personally attacking posters.

I'm not really aware of the Emperor's own views. Does he hug puppies and love kittens or something? I just assumed otherwise due to the general state of the Imperium. If he really is a great guy or something, then it could be a very interesting scenario. (Not that Goku would have any way of knowing what a great guy he is, so the wish wouldn't happen anyway...unless Goku got bored. So basically a 50% chance it happens.)
Also, I'm pretty sure when you get wished back with the Dragonballs you get wished back to your prime.

GoC
2008-05-24, 09:50 PM
No, they /might/ be overwhelmed by Psykers, but numbers are meaningless.

Power levels are numbers...

Innis Cabal
2008-05-24, 09:57 PM
Impossible. If it's a man then it isn't made of straw. If it's made of straw then it isn't a man. Clearly a fallacy from your part.

Stop comiting fallacies. It's fallacious.

Translation: If I wanted to have a coherent discussion following the cheap rules of philosophy wich NOBODY who wins his life by talking bothers to use(read:politicians), I certainly wouldn't have come to a thread discussing the competition between two nonsense universes into an even more nonsensic battle.

And this means you should keep out of Vs threads, as every argument you present is pretty much hog wash and should be ignored. Noted, thank you :D

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-25, 06:32 PM
If you hate it so much then maybe you should go and make/counter some arguments rather than personally attacking posters.

Well, y'know, I'd like to be able to make arguments that I could be sure were being considered under the 'cheap rules of philosophy'. Otherwise, then what's the point?

Also:

note the lack of personal attacks in the quoted message.

If you seriously believe that there are any, then by all means report me, but otherwise, I'd say that it's a fairly dishonest thing to do.

Anteros
2008-05-25, 06:39 PM
Well, y'know, I'd like to be able to make arguments that I could be sure were being considered under the 'cheap rules of philosophy'. Otherwise, then what's the point?

Also:

note the lack of personal attacks in the quoted message.

If you seriously believe that there are any, then by all means report me, but otherwise, I'd say that it's a fairly dishonest thing to do.

So calling someone a troll, saying that they flame, and then that they don't understand basic civility isn't an attack on that person? That's certainly an odd perspective you have there.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-25, 06:44 PM
So calling someone a troll, saying that they flame, and then that they don't understand basic civility isn't an attack on that person? That's certainly an odd perspective you have there.


Well, if you want to win arguments by the methods of 'politicians', and throw aside what you deride as 'the cheap rules of philosophy', then by all means troll, flame, and generally disregard all standards of civility, and logical debate.

Verb =/= actor. If I might go fishing, does that make me a fisherman?

Eita
2008-05-25, 07:25 PM
If you hate it so much then maybe you should go and make/counter some arguments rather than personally attacking posters.

I'm not really aware of the Emperor's own views. Does he hug puppies and love kittens or something? I just assumed otherwise due to the general state of the Imperium. If he really is a great guy or something, then it could be a very interesting scenario. (Not that Goku would have any way of knowing what a great guy he is, so the wish wouldn't happen anyway...unless Goku got bored. So basically a 50% chance it happens.)
Also, I'm pretty sure when you get wished back with the Dragonballs you get wished back to your prime.

Unless you're an alien who is actively thwarting the Emperor's goals or a daemon, the Emperor's cool with you.

@Illiterate Scribe: FOOLED YOU WITH LOGIC!

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-25, 07:26 PM
I leave for a weekend and things don't advance very far at all. :-P

Hey, is there a time limit on how long Earth has to stay not destroyed?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-25, 07:38 PM
Unless you're an alien who is actively thwarting the Emperor's goals or a daemon, the Emperor's cool with you.

@Illiterate Scribe: FOOLED YOU WITH LOGIC!

http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/4697/picture4lv4.png

Oslecamo
2008-05-26, 05:20 AM
Verb =/= actor. If I might go fishing, does that make me a fisherman?


A fisherman is someone who gathers fish, shellfish, or other animals from a body of water

Indeed it does.


How many heresies does someone needs to make to be considered an heretic?

How many planets one needs to destroy for him to be considered a planet destroyer?

This is what I call cheap philosophy. You make up new definitions for words in the fly to suit your argument. Then if someone points out that the words don't actually mean that, you resort to calling them trolls and flamers.

Just like the WH40K and DBZ universes are full of internal incosistencies wich make any kind of serious comparion impossible.

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-26, 09:27 AM
OK, I'll explain what I meant again.

You say that you don't want to use 'cheap laws of philosophy'.

I say fine.

However, it's those cheap laws that say that flaming is bad - see Ad Hominem, Baculum, Red Herrings, and a whole lot of real fallacies (seriously. If you're going to accuse me of making up cheap philosophy, then go check 'em on wikipedia, or something).

If you don't want to use them - and you don't -


If I wanted to have a coherent discussion following the cheap rules of philosophy, which NOBODY who wins his life by talking bothers to use(read:politicians), I certainly wouldn't have come to a thread discussing the competition between two nonsense universes into an even more nonsensical battle.

- then fine. But then, by your repudiation of them, your posts would then be, by that very nature, liable to trolling and flaming, since those things that stop you from doing so are removed.

Understand what I was saying now?

Eita
2008-05-26, 09:18 PM
Just like the WH40K and DBZ universes are full of internal incosistencies wich make any kind of serious comparion impossible.

Half-false. There are no inconsistencies in 40K. New stuff overrides old stuff unless it is in the current codex or rulebook.

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-26, 09:22 PM
THAT'S what DBZ needs! A codex or something that sets down in writing everything int he series!

turkishproverb
2008-05-27, 02:00 AM
Unless you're an alien who is actively thwarting the Emperor's goals or a daemon, the Emperor's cool with you.

@Illiterate Scribe: FOOLED YOU WITH LOGIC!

Or if you tell him he made a mistake, ever. then he hates you.

I.E.: The Eldar: Eldrad warned him about Horus, suggestions that it lead to his few personal anti all aliens comments
Thousand Suns: Warned Emperor about Horus, but were instead attacked for being psykers and sorcerers.

Cuddly
2008-05-27, 02:28 AM
Any discussion of what tyranids would do?


If the Earth just appears in contested space, it dies due to lack of a sun. Bye by Goku, no food for you!

Doesn't the entire DBZ cast have enough power to just resummon the sun, anyway?

Illiterate Scribe
2008-05-27, 02:36 AM
Or if you tell him he made a mistake, ever. then he hates you.

I.E.: The Eldar: Eldrad warned him about Horus, suggestions that it lead to his few personal anti all aliens comments
Thousand Suns: Warned Emperor about Horus, but were instead attacked for being psykers and sorcerers.

Yeah, but I reckon Eldrad was just saying that. Being an annoying meddler who ***** around with things for his own amusement.

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-27, 07:44 AM
Any discussion of what tyranids would do?


Oh, probably swarm in the manner of all insectoid alien hordes and get blown to many bits by rapid fire ki blasts.

(Awaits inevitable rebuttal)

Indon
2008-05-27, 12:08 PM
Oh please. The Emperor waking up? He is a shade of his former self, even if he DID wake up, I don't think he could even lift his head up.

They could wish the Emperor back to health with the Dragonballs.

Cuddly
2008-05-28, 12:37 AM
Oh, probably swarm in the manner of all insectoid alien hordes and get blown to many bits by rapid fire ki blasts.

(Awaits inevitable rebuttal)

Aren't they contagious, though?

turkishproverb
2008-05-28, 01:38 AM
Yeah, but I reckon Eldrad was just saying that. Being an annoying meddler who ***** around with things for his own amusement.

Nah, eldrad's usually good with the humans (not as much as he is, confusingly, with the TAU) as long as it involves stopping chaos. When it doesn't, he liked to ***** around with them.

Alot.

Kind've like how Trekkies take whether shatner wears a toupe seriously.

:smallbiggrin:

Mr. Scaly
2008-05-29, 08:27 AM
Aren't they contagious, though?

As in do they carry diseases? Don't know...does anybody else?

Mr_Dave
2008-06-02, 01:38 AM
WH40k wins. How? The C'Tan did it.

That's GW's answer to everything. The motherflippin' C'Tan did it.

Which one though, The Nightbringer, or The Deceiver

konfeta
2008-06-02, 02:24 AM
There are more than 2 C'Tan. And there were more than 4 C'Tan.