Oh. That's clever. Charlie's new options...

[Moral Wiz]

Thinking about it...

Charlie's main reason for not switching sides was lack of credibility, and damage to reputation. Sure. You always need an excuse to switch sides in war, otherwise you're known to be a treacherous git.

Who's valuable and powerful units just got croaked needlessly, due to the over-confidence of the Coalition leader's personally chosen commander?

Charlie would seem to have a very usable excuse for a spot of side switching.

[dragongirl13]

Good thoughts. Still, Parson may not need as much help now that Wanda has made Archons and Unipegataurs, not to mention whatever else was caught in that blast, evaporate in a cool and scary manner.

Charlie should definitely be switching sides.

Hey, if he becomes good enough friends with Gobwin Knob's leaders, he might hand over the Arkendisc to Stanley. Stanley's planning and diplomacy may suck, but Parson's a genius, and if Stanley commands Parson to get the Arkendisc, he leaves the method used to get it open-ended.

[Moral Wiz]

Not need help right now. But the RCC (Royal Crown Coalition) is still prety damn strong. If this didn't take Jill and Vinnie, getting in touch with Charlie might make all the difference.

And Charlie can do a lot more than supply Archons. He can use thinkamancy, better than Maggie.

So, he can deliver a grand speech to all the RCC leaders, pointing our Ansom's recklessness, and the fact that although Jetstone has more units here than any other power by a longshot, the attack plan basically only draws on other powers for all important roles, putting them in most of the danger..

[Ptorquemada]

I think it's extremely unlikely that Charlie will switch sides. It would kill his marketability.

"Hi, this is Charlescomm. I understand you're in a little bit of a conflict. Well, we at Charlescomm can help you out for a nominal fee; of course, you understand that if any of our units get hurt we'll start helping your opponent, and... hello? Hello?"

[Edea]

I think it more likely that Charlie semi-permanently revokes Rule #19 where his Archons are concerned.

[Moral Wiz]

That'd be right... if the units were legitematly endangered, in conflict usefull to the RCC. They wern't. It wasn't a battle, they didn't even get a chance to fight. Very expensive units, wasted.

If they died in the line of duty, fighting alongside the RCC... well, that's good for publicity. But they got sacrificed by one stupid commander, who will not get seriously reprimanded for it. If Charlie let people do that, it'll kill him economically. The Archons would be getting nothing but suicide missions.

No, in Charlie's business, you only hire on with people who respect you, and your firepower. Not those idiots who waste it, and let your own die. He's got good justification for pulling out.

[AngryAngel]

... in Charlie's business, you only hire on with people who respect you, and your firepower. Not those idiots who waste it, and let your own die. He's got good justification for pulling out.

Very true, but pulling out of the coalition doesn't automatically mean switching sides. The loss of Charlie's forces and other capabilities weakens the coalition (though not fatally, they were already winning the war when Charlie allied himself with Jetstone). And it's unlikely they'll get a refund of whatever money they paid Charlie to join them. Even that much is a win for Stanley (and Parson, of course).

[Moral Wiz]

Not automatically. But Charlie seemed to like Parson. A big offer (half a million schmuckers, for example) should be enough to get Charlie on team GK. The difficulty was backstabbing the Coalition, nothing more.

And as for money... I'd place good money there was a clause in Charlie's contract that means Ansom now has to refund Charlescomm for the lost Archons. Just a guess.:smallamused:

[Beguilement]

Charlie may well have a valid reason to pull out, but to also rejoin on Parson's side? That would still castrate his credibility. It's convention to stay out when there's a conflict of interests. Valid intersts include his contractual obligations to Jetstone and his natural interest in the health and well-being of his archons.

Still, can anyone really actually fault Jetstone for the loss of the archons? They were lost in a heavily armed battle group to one caster. That was hard to see coming! Ontop of this, it's wartime; danger is implied. Ontop of that, Charles Comm IS the information powerhouse. If anyone should've known of Wanda's looming threat, or even could've known, it was them (and one Archon seemed to realize it right before she was blasted).

According to the archons, Jetstone paid "a lot" for their services, but the Charles Comm failed to deliver on vital information about a huge threat despite information being their thing.

When you get down to it, even if you decide to fault Jetstone, they have no excuse to switch sides. Even pulling out calls his credibility into question if it's currently pristine.

[SteveMB]

And as for money... I'd place good money there was a clause in Charlie's contract that means Ansom now has to refund Charlescomm for the lost Archons. Just a guess.:smallamused:

"You break it; you bought it." :smallamused:

And, if Ansom finds the penalty clause onerous, things could get ugly. I have a feeling that Ansom has his own "personal dislike for Charlie" (though, unlike Stanley, he's willing to suck it up and deal with him when necessary) because his existence as a commoner Overlord with an attuned Arkentool affronts Ansom's worldview (and, perhaps, feeds unadmitted insecurity that the attuned Arkenhammer and unattuned Arkenpliers really are indications of the Titans' favor and lack thereof).

[Moral Wiz]

Still, can anyone really actually fault Jetstone for the loss of the archons? They were lost in a heavily armed battle group to one caster. That was hard to see coming! Ontop of this, it's wartime; danger is implied. Ontop of that, Charles Comm IS the information powerhouse. If anyone should've known of Wanda's looming threat, or even could've known, it was them (and one Archon seemed to realize it right before she was blasted).

According to the archons, Jetstone paid "a lot" for their services, but the Charles Comm failed to deliver on vital information about a huge threat despite information being their thing.

When you get down to it, even if you decide to fault Jetstone, they have no excuse to switch sides. Even pulling out calls his credibility into question if it's currently pristine.

1;They weren't getting payed for information. We know that. Makes sense, as Charlie's best at that, he'd charge more, as he'd be using his best, and diverting them from other jobs (Mercenaries are always busy). That's Ansom's job, as RCC commander.

b; They were flying OVER THE ENEMY STRONGHOLD! That was stupid, unless you know what Jill had in mind. Trouble should have been expected, and they were working toward no Coalition Goal. Jill was outright defying the stated objective, and won't get reprimanded by Ansom.

More than enough to get Charlie to sever the alliance. Coming in on GK's side... well, yes, he probably can't do that immediately. Give it a few turns, for "GK to make an offer". Nothing wrong with that. One side's wronged you, you back out. Other side makes you an offer, you sign up.

@SteveMB; Interesting. Especially after Parson's speech on the Tools. Might just give the reasoning for Charlie to immedietly turn to GK.

And then the Dwagon's arrive.:smallamused:

Mind you, I suspect we're in book two territory here. I'm thinking the battle itself will form book two. This is a VERY climatic moment.

[Ramien]

Of course, Charlie has a way to change sides without any loss of reputation now. If Jetstone releases Charlescomm from service, there's nothing that says Charlie then has to sign with anyone else, so he's free to pursue the contract of his choice.

[Moral Wiz]

Hmm... he did get released... though I think it might be best to come up with a credible excuse now.

[SteveMB]

Of course, Charlie has a way to change sides without any loss of reputation now. If Jetstone releases Charlescomm from service, there's nothing that says Charlie then has to sign with anyone else, so he's free to pursue the contract of his choice.

Presumably, they have an understanding that Charlie will make a new contract with Transylvito. OTOH, that understanding might get a bit frayed if Charlie decides to quote prices in accordance with the current risk level (as indicated by the fact that he's already lost one Archon).

[Mercenary Pen]

I suspect the previous arrangement with Jetstone would function more like:

'You only get the units you paid for, if you break them, we are under no obligation to replace them.'

Rather than:

'You break it, you bought it.'

I mean, do we know whether the opposing force stats given to Parson included the entire strength of Charlescomm forces, or just the forces that the RCC had paid for at the time?

[RubberBandMan]

Another thought, who says he can't play both sides?

At the moment, he is purely freelance. He has yet to be hired by Vinny. So in the meanwhile, he can free-deal, even if there is an 'understanding' he's gonna be hired by Vinny.

What if he didn't stiff Vinnys group, but instead 'sold' parson some information, or thinkamancy services? Or fixed his casters? Then he goes and rents out his Archons to Vinny, as planned, and no one is the wiser. A very sneaky thing, if he pulls it off.

[Sonar009]

People keep mentioning the loss of Charlescomm forces, and yet, if Charlie lost one archon in a fight against the fortress, we would lose many more if he were to join Parson. Regardless of losses which would happen if he stayed with the R.C.C., (though it appears he's going to switch regardless(I am TOTALLY in favor of this.)) he would likely lose more archons on Pason's side than on Jetstone's.

Not too imply he couldn't still use the loss as a reason, of course.

[SteveD]

Isn't everyone forgetting something rather important?

Stanley hates Charlie, hence why there had been no alliance up until now.

The Archons switching sides might well swing the air battle against Vinnie, but what will happen then? Stanley will probably pull it all apart again.

[Oslecamo]

I have a somewhat diferent theory.

Hamster offers Charlie his mathmancy tool in return for Charlie refusing the godfather vampire contract and leave the war.

It's the perfect business for Charlie. He doesn't breack any contract, he can't be acused for switching sides(for everybody else, he retreated from the conflict because he wasn't being paid well enough for his losses), he gets a new shiny toy, and he doesn't risk losing any more of his precious archons.

Vinnie and his disco mafia, on the other hand, will probably be hard pressed to stop Stanley whitout the archons suport. Unless they can shoot lasers with gay dancing, dunno...

[eilandesq]

I have a somewhat diferent theory.

Hamster offers Charlie his mathmancy tool in return for Charlie refusing the godfather vampire contract and leave the war.

It's the perfect business for Charlie. He doesn't breack any contract, he can't be acused for switching sides(for everybody else, he retreated from the conflict because he wasn't being paid well enough for his losses), he gets a new shiny toy, and he doesn't risk losing any more of his precious archons.

Vinnie and his disco mafia, on the other hand, will probably be hard pressed to stop Stanley whitout the archons suport. Unless they can shoot lasers with gay dancing, dunno...


That's not bad, but if I was Parson I'd ask for another consideration from Charlie; namely, the suggestion that a few others here have made--that Charlie sends a Thinkagram to the members of the Alliance explaining that he isn't going to do business with them any more because of Ansom's incompetence. Charlie would probably say "yes" immediately--it'll make the other members of the coalition more likely to hire him in the future than would otherwise be the case, and won't alienate Jetstone any more than simply refusing to re-up would.

[SteveMB]

That's not bad, but if I was Parson I'd ask for another consideration from Charlie; namely, the suggestion that a few others here have made--that Charlie sends a Thinkagram to the members of the Alliance explaining that he isn't going to do business with them any more because of Ansom's incompetence.
Oooo, that would be evil. If you thought Ansom was enraged before.... :smallbiggrin:

[Lamech]

'You only get the units you paid for, if you break them, we are under no obligation to replace them.'

Rather than:

'You break it, you bought it.'
I'm betting their is a penalty if units are not returned intact, or probably a "deposit" that gets returned when the Archon is returned. Otherwise people could be really careless and Charlie would lose a lot of Archons, I think the could make more profit by keeping the Archons alive, then by constantly having them die.

On the other hand if Arken-recruitment is easy, he might just have a deposit for the high level Archons. If he could easily replace low-level Archons he could say, "I'm the only place you can get disposable, but powerful units."




And, if Ansom finds the penalty clause onerous, things could get ugly. I have a feeling that Ansom has his own "personal dislike for Charlie" (though, unlike Stanley, he's willing to suck it up and deal with him when necessary) because his existence as a commoner Overlord with an attuned Arkentool affronts Ansom's worldview (and, perhaps, feeds unadmitted insecurity that the attuned Arkenhammer and unattuned Arkenpliers really are indications of the Titans' favor and lack thereof).
I think Ansom won't try to weasle out of a penalty clause, if Charlie stabs the coaliton in the back they are in trouble, the airforce might go down if they get stabbed in the back and at the very least the Archons can warn Stanley and croak flyers on the way out. If the worst happens Charlie or Stanley can launch hit and runs at will, go for the archers, then the whole Coalition is defenceless. Oops...

[rosebud]

I don't understand this conversation.

Charlie is breaking no contract, period. He had a contract with Ansom. Ansom is ending that contract. Charlie fulfilled the contract with honor. End of story.

Now there are two parties, neither of whom are allied with Ansom, who have interest in business with Charlie. One is the Don. The other is Parson. Charlie is at this point a free agent and available to make a contract with one or the other or neither. He cannot make a contract with both and still keep his reputation.

Penalties or other items are a non-issue. The contract with Ansom ended and is not up for discussion.

As for Parson and the artifact, I would really hate to see him loose it. It is a nice companion for Parson, not to mention a welcome tie with his world. There are other forms of payment that involve neither the item nor disloyalty to Stanley. One major thing that Parson has, for example, is the undead body of Jaclyn. That alone has great value. And there is the potential for future profit or conquest sharing or shares of the spoils on his side in the event of a victory. Open your mind wide for the possibilities.

Unrelated, I would really like to see the next part of his sword show up. :smallsmile:

[Aquillion]

I think it's extremely unlikely that Charlie will switch sides. It would kill his marketability.

"Hi, this is Charlescomm. I understand you're in a little bit of a conflict. Well, we at Charlescomm can help you out for a nominal fee; of course, you understand that if any of our units get hurt we'll start helping your opponent, and... hello? Hello?"Not so. Ansom and co are trying to cheat the rules by juggling alliances. I suspect that any future employers would view it as a stupid error on their part for them to do so with a mercenary.

Charlie depends on people knowing that he will keep his word to the letter -- but he doesn't need people to think he's a nice lovey-dovey guy. A reputation for being a mercenary who cares about nothing but money and the exact wording of his contracts suits him fine. (Because, conversely, that also implies that he will do anything for the right price -- which is exactly the impression he wants to convey.)

Ansom et all screwed up their contract with him, and made the mistake of viewing him as an ally instead of as a mercenary. But future employers, looking at it, will see a side willing to do anything if the price is right (even turn around and stab someone who just broke an alliance with them), and will see that as a good thing as long as they word their contracts well and don't make the same mistake.

Being a mercenary isn't just about making alliances; a mercenary in a world like Erfworld, where everyone is constantly at war, needs to be able to convience new employers that they can discard old alliances as soon as the contract is up, too. Otherwise, the number of prospective employers they have would drop real fast. Charlie might one day want to be hired by one of Ansom's enemies, say; things like this help convince people that he's loyal to whoever he has a contract to now, with no sentimentality to people he completed contracts with in the past.

A Charlie with a sentimental loyalty to Ansom et all that goes beyond the exact wording of his contract is a Charlie who is unlikely to ever be hired by anyone else. As strange as it might seem, this 'betrayal' makes him a good mercenary -- not a good friend, no, but a good mercenary.

Somehow I doubt the Don will see it that way, of course, so Charlie would want to be sure the price is right. But I don't think it would hurt his reputation with anybody outside of those directly involved.

[VariaVespasa]

I dont think its anything like so simple as just being paid to withdraw. Since Charlie is being freed from his current contract as part of a planned manoeuver it would still be seen as unreliable if he flaked out on it and thus damage his reputation.

I think its much more likely to be some form of sneaky move that means that Charlie winds up with more profit that he would otherwise, in one form or another. (Extra cash, extra items, extra casters, extra allies or strategic/political position are all forms of profit) Say arranging that certain items or units be in certain locations when Stanley falls, so Charlie can scoop them up for himself. Charlie might well want to add Parson, Sizemore and maybe Wanda to his retinue and arrange for them to be in a set location so they can be hired/claimed as loot by Charlie before Ansom can storm in and slaughter them all, forinstance. Or Charlie might arrange to activate Parson as his own new side in return for certain considerations from the new side, either toys or services. After all, Charlie was hired to deal with Stanley, not conquer GK specifically. As long as he does indeed help squash Stanely I suspect nothing at all in his contract says GK must fall, specifically. Sure, everybody on the Jetstone side naturally assumes that GK will fall as part of Stanley being crushed, but its not actually required. He does have an apparently attuned Arkendish to boost his abilities (hence being able to hack Parsons book forinstance) that might well enable him to mess with loyalties to help arrange things like that.

[Freederick]

I think its much more likely to be some form of sneaky move that means that Charlie winds up with more profit that he would otherwise, in one form or another.

Or fewer losses while keeping the same profit. Note that Charlie will get paid the same amount for his forces just being there, regardless of whether there is an actual battle or not. If there is battle, he stands to lose more of his precious archons; the (full-health) dwagons and the (attuned) Arkenhammer are no pushover. But what if Stanley doesn't come to the appointment (with death, heh, heh) ? Then Charlie still gets paid, keeps his archons, and keeps his reputation.

Thus it is to Charlie's advantage to make sure that Stanley is forewarned, and avoids the fight. Hence the call to Parson; Charlie will let Parson know of the ambush, so that Parson can warn Stanley. This course of action has several benefits to Charlie:

1. The battle won't happen, but Charlie will still get paid. See above. :smallcool:

2. Parson will presumably be grateful; possibly he can be maneuvered into giving Charlie something in exchange for the "favor". :smallwink:

3. There is no hit to Charlie's rep, as long as the leak is not revealed. :smallsigh:

4. There is full deniability: Charlie is contacting Parson via a hack, rather than Stanley direct. Who'll believe Parson's story? Ansom? Parson has already shown that he's trying to "work" him. Don King? Be serious. :smallbiggrin:

So, IMO, Charlie is contacting Parson not to sell his services, but to sell crucial intelligence--about the ambush on Stanley. Any bets? :smallamused:

[Dave Rapp]

Next turn Charlie allies with Transylvito so they can go first, so I'm guessing Charlie goes next. He has an opportunity here and now to do stuff, and his next turn (unless I've misunderstood some game mechanic(s)) won't come until after everyone else has gone. There is a very high chance that someone Charlie likes (Parson, etc) will die before then. Thus if Charlie wants to save someone, now is probably his only chance.

So let's say Charlie evacs parson and maybe other valuable casters. (Wanda, Maggie, etc) The RCC then takes GK and Stanley's side is destroyed. But it doesn't matter because Stanley is now either croaked or has started a new side, and Parson and co. are now now with Charlie. The battle is over, everyone goes home, and Charlie is free now to do whatever it was he wanted to do but couldn't because he was allied with the RCC.

Just one theory.

[TheTurnipKing]

1;They weren't getting payed for information. We know that. Makes sense, as Charlie's best at that, he'd charge more, as he'd be using his best, and diverting them from other jobs (Mercenaries are always busy). That's Ansom's job, as RCC commander.

b; They were flying OVER THE ENEMY STRONGHOLD! That was stupid, unless you know what Jill had in mind. Trouble should have been expected, and they were working toward no Coalition Goal. Jill was outright defying the stated objective, and won't get reprimanded by Ansom.

More than enough to get Charlie to sever the alliance. Coming in on GK's side... well, yes, he probably can't do that immediately. Give it a few turns, for "GK to make an offer". Nothing wrong with that. One side's wronged you, you back out. Other side makes you an offer, you sign up.

@SteveMB; Interesting. Especially after Parson's speech on the Tools. Might just give the reasoning for Charlie to immedietly turn to GK.

And then the Dwagon's arrive.:smallamused:

Mind you, I suspect we're in book two territory here. I'm thinking the battle itself will form book two. This is a VERY climatic moment.
The critical point is this:
Charlie isn't the one severing the alliance.

When the alliance is severed, Charlie is free to pick and choose contracts. Ansom isn't expecting Stanley's side to tender an offer during that very short period, and even if he did, he doesn't expect Charlie to work for the losing side. Charlie's got some useful units, but he can't tilt the ultimate outcome.

But the bottom line is this: No-one is breaking an alliance. Charlie's contract is simply coming to an end.

[Laurentio II]

And as for money... I'd place good money there was a clause in Charlie's contract that means Ansom now has to refund Charlescomm for the lost Archons. Just a guess.:smallamused:
You say? I don't. I frequently play a mercenary when roleplaying, and things are never so easy.

Charlie "Ansom, your chick commander had my precious Archon croaked. I demand compensation, otherwise I'll have to reconsider the alliance with you."

Ansom "You lost a Archon due to one of my officials? I don't remember. Oh, if you are not speaking of that moronic air-head that unrequestly interrupted an over the edge diplomatic exchange that could have resorted in the lost of enemy's most valuable spell caster? I concur that you need to be compensated for her value, less the value of the troops I lost due to her distraction in a crucial moment, and the resulting damage to a mission that was going to be much simpler before her bad timed show. This bring to... let's see... you owning me a new Archon. And please, one that finished the rookie school and actually got a brain to keep a separation between ears. I'll gather it before next turn, and thanks for collaboration. Anson over."

Charlie "... you know? It's going to be much simpler to betray you... (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScrewTheRulesIHaveMoney)"

Diplomacy is a matter of power. If you are the one surviving to write the history books, you are always right.

[Radar]

@Freederick:
Interesting plan you got there. It's unlikely, that Ansom would get to know about Charlie talking with Parson at all. Also it's likely, that Parson would have to pay for information one way or another.
The only point missing in the plan is Tagon's stale victory dance "We got paid twice!" (see Schlock Mercenary for reference). :-)

[SteveMB]

Charlie "Ansom, your chick commander had my precious Archon croaked. I demand compensation, otherwise I'll have to reconsider the alliance with you."...[etc]

Heh. Something like that might serve as a reputation-saving excuse for letting the contract drop. Of course, Ansom will be booped off in any case, but Jetstone is just one faction (and Ansom's initial hiring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0034.html) of Charlie seems to have been a reluctant response to necessity -- otherwise, why not have him in the Coalition to begin with? -- so Charlie wouldn't be writing off all that much future business in any case).

I get the distinct impression that Ansom's sense of his own prerogatives has made him forget that being apprised of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0103.html) Ansom's plan and agreeing to follow it are not necessarily synonymous.

[Wender]

I get the distinct impression that Ansom's sense of his own prerogatives has made him forget that being apprised of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0103.html) Ansom's plan and agreeing to follow it are not necessarily synonymous.

Imagine his shock when Charlie tells him that he can get X price from Parson, where X is quite substantial thanks to certain items, and if he wants Charlie's continued service it will cost X + n, where n is some number that pushes Ansom over the edge.

[Laurentio II]

I think you are making it harder than necessary. Charlie is a mercenary, but it seems that most people relate it to troops only.

The best move for Charlie is just to say "Sorry Prince Ansom and allies, but new intelligentsia report I recently acquired shows that renewing the contract with your side will be extremely risky, and economically disastrous. Your whole alliance can't provide the financial coverage for the upcoming expense during the following of the conflict. While I personally respect you for the duty you are serving, my side can't count on sympathetic help in the eventuality of the near obliteration that is coming. As a token of respect, I'll send back any payment you obliged this far. I wish you all good luck".

The core is "my intelligentsia", a thing that everyone know and respect. What effect do you think will have such a lecture on Ansom's allies?
I put my money on "instant disband".

[Shhalahr Windrider]

(and Ansom's initial hiring (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0034.html) of Charlie seems to have been a reluctant response to necessity -- otherwise, why not have him in the Coalition to begin with?
One possible reason: Economics. Hire the mercenaries before you need them, and you'll have to pay them for a longer period of service when they don't even serve a function for a significant portion of that service. Not a very efficient use of one's war capital.

[Nargrakhan]

Anyone consider this? According to this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0100.html

Charlie is confident of Parson's success against Ansom. Then in this recent strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0112.html

We learn Charlie has been able to access Parson's book all along: which he has been recording thoughts and battle strategies. Therefore is it out of the question to believe, Charlie has known Parson's strategy all this time? Would it be too much to wonder, given that Ansom didn't pay Charlie for espionage and that Charlie likes Parson, he's willing to switch sides/abstain from either side because Parson is the better Warmaster?

That is to say: by joining Parson and/or dropping his alliance with Jetstone - Charlie comes out ahead. He knows what Parson knows... and is willing to bet that Parson will win.

No point being on the LOSING side after all. We know Charlie doesn't like losing his Archons.

[Ramien]

Anyone consider this? According to this strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0100.html

Charlie is confident of Parson's success against Ansom. Then in this recent strip:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0112.html

We learn Charlie has been able to access Parson's book all along: which he has been recording thoughts and battle strategies. Therefore is it out of the question to believe, Charlie has known Parson's strategy all this time? Would it be too much to wonder, given that Ansom didn't pay Charlie for espionage and that Charlie likes Parson, he's willing to switch sides/abstain from either side because Parson is the better Warmaster?

That is to say: by joining Parson and/or dropping his alliance with Jetstone - Charlie comes out ahead. He knows what Parson knows... and is willing to bet that Parson will win.

No point being on the LOSING side after all. We know Charlie doesn't like losing his Archons.

The problem is, we don't know if Charlie's been able to access Parson's book all along, or what exactly he's been able to access in it. He might only be able to tap into the communication aspects of the book, and might only further be able to do it if he's communicating with the person in the book. Parson is worried about Charlie being able to access the book, and rightfully so, but to assume that as one of his capabilities could be a large overestimation of his abilities.

[CelebrenIthil]

I don't write often on the forums but I'd like to point out something... the way he talks, his references and that he seems to understand Parson, might indicate Charlie is from "Reality" just like him. (or just a very good thinkamancer but let's consider the first reason)
...If it's the case even if Parson doesn't have anything better to offer him than the coalition (artifacts, shmuckers...) he still is compelled to help him out. Who knows how much time he might have spent in that completely different reality, not knowing if he's crazy or dreaming or just... alone in the world. Even if he's seemingly quite successful, he might not want to spend to rest of his life in erfworld, or at least just make sure "Reality" did really exist.

And then this other guy comes around. (maybe Charlie isn't sure if Parson is also from his world but has doubts. He's got probably the best intel you can have so word of his summoning and "special" status is known to him, and his small discussions with Parson (along with maybe "hacking" his notes) might indicate it furthermore))

I know you don't get the head of a powerful and respected mercenary side by acting on crazy impulses but I think that if I would be in such a case, I would try not to let that other person killed.

~

[Yogi]

re:Charlie can use a loophole to now hire himself to Parson

Let's say that you and your friend both want a Wii, but there is only one in stock. You then reach an agreement. Your friend buys it, plays all five of the good games on it, then sells it to you for half price.

Instead, he buys it, promptly E-bays it, and pockets the profit.

What would be your reaction?

a) Well, he legally bought the Wii with his money, therefore it is legally his to do as he wished. He did not break any contract, did not violate any laws, and therefore his reputation escapes undamaged.

b) I want a new friend.


Also, if he joins Parson, then two of their Archons will be stuck in the same hex as Jillian, Vinnie, the rest of the RCC's air force, and the reenforcement Vampires. That's not very healthy, especially since Vinnie gets to act first.

[Kyouhen]

Those of you saying that Charlie needs a reason to justify joining Parson seem to forget that he's a mercenary. He didn't join with Parson when the offer was first made because he was still under contract to Jetstone, and what good is a merc who backs out of their contracts? It's a perfectly legitimate business move to go with the highest bidder if you are currently under no contract and two sides of a conflict want your services, which is a situation Charlie's about to be in.

Also, I don't think Charlie is going to sell his services to both sides. That's guaranteed to be bad for business. What if both sides send their archons to fight each other? I sense a distinct conflict of interest there.

And I doubt Charlie would sell information either. That's something that would severely damage his reputation. Would you hire a merc that has a history of selling your secrets when your contract with them ends? Not likely. I also don't think he'd start a bidding war by revealing to the Von that Parson is also attempting to buy his services.

[Zolem]

Not so. Ansom and co are trying to cheat the rules by juggling alliances. I suspect that any future employers would view it as a stupid error on their part for them to do so with a mercenary.

Charlie depends on people knowing that he will keep his word to the letter -- but he doesn't need people to think he's a nice lovey-dovey guy. A reputation for being a mercenary who cares about nothing but money and the exact wording of his contracts suits him fine. (Because, conversely, that also implies that he will do anything for the right price -- which is exactly the impression he wants to convey.)

Ansom et all screwed up their contract with him, and made the mistake of viewing him as an ally instead of as a mercenary. But future employers, looking at it, will see a side willing to do anything if the price is right (even turn around and stab someone who just broke an alliance with them), and will see that as a good thing as long as they word their contracts well and don't make the same mistake.

Being a mercenary isn't just about making alliances; a mercenary in a world like Erfworld, where everyone is constantly at war, needs to be able to convience new employers that they can discard old alliances as soon as the contract is up, too. Otherwise, the number of prospective employers they have would drop real fast. Charlie might one day want to be hired by one of Ansom's enemies, say; things like this help convince people that he's loyal to whoever he has a contract to now, with no sentimentality to people he completed contracts with in the past.

A Charlie with a sentimental loyalty to Ansom et all that goes beyond the exact wording of his contract is a Charlie who is unlikely to ever be hired by anyone else. As strange as it might seem, this 'betrayal' makes him a good mercenary -- not a good friend, no, but a good mercenary.

Somehow I doubt the Don will see it that way, of course, so Charlie would want to be sure the price is right. But I don't think it would hurt his reputation with anybody outside of those directly involved.

Heck, I'd hire him. If he just follows who's paying, I hire him to whack my enemies, and make sure they are FULLY wacked when I release him, and make sure I don't release him sooner. I don't have to doubt his loyalty as long as I'm the one paying him. And I know to hire him BEFORE I attack somebody, so they can't pull him out from under me. And if somebody attacks without Charlie on their side, I'm going to call him in to give my side a big boost. And if he attacks me imediatly after my current fight is over, I have no hard feelings, it's just business. I'd just turn to mercenary group B, not as efective, but cheaper. Adn you know there are other mercenary groups out there. Charlie jsut has the best and therefore is the one you look for first. No loyalty means I could hire him right off of his last contract holder, and maybe pay a little extra to get that tiny 'exhaust vent three feet in diamiter' on my map, and pay him for the Archeon 'torpedos' to fire at it.

[Yogi]

The problem here is, this isn't a case of Charlie's contract expiring and now he's free to look for more work. According to Ansom, there is an understanding that the contract is not REALLY broken, and that this team switch is merely a way of gaining two turns in a row. Backing out right now would obviously be exploiting a loophole. Possibly legal, but Charlie's concerned about his reputation. Would you hire someone who you know uses loopholes in the contracts to screw over people who hire him?

[LurkerInPlayground]

Another thought, who says he can't play both sides?

At the moment, he is purely freelance. He has yet to be hired by Vinny. So in the meanwhile, he can free-deal, even if there is an 'understanding' he's gonna be hired by Vinny.

What if he didn't stiff Vinnys group, but instead 'sold' parson some information, or thinkamancy services? Or fixed his casters? Then he goes and rents out his Archons to Vinny, as planned, and no one is the wiser. A very sneaky thing, if he pulls it off.
This makes the most sense to me. Why would Charlie outright switch sides during the war? That stinks too much of unprincipled betrayal. And Ansom and company aren't going to go for the "loophole" excuse after they've had their countries screwed over.

No, Charlie is going to play it subtle and play both sides of the field. He's not going to invest so much in Parson that he ties himself to Parson's survival. Charlie admires Parson's deviousness, but that's no cause for any loyalty.

Parson, for the most part, isn't going to complain about a little side-dealing action. As any deal is still a significant step-up from what he's had before, and Parson is nothing if not pragmatic.

[NamelessArchon]

The problem here is, this isn't a case of Charlie's contract expiring and now he's free to look for more work. According to Ansom, there is an understanding that the contract is not REALLY broken, and that this team switch is merely a way of gaining two turns in a row. Backing out right now would obviously be exploiting a loophole.Emphasis mine.

Actually, Ansom is releasing the contract. It's over. Finis. Done. Complete. that's why discussions about Charlie "backing out" are meaningless. If you release them early, and they don't agree to rehire under new terms with the boss you handpick, that's not "backing out", that's a group of mercs being released from contract and finding the new employer not to their liking.

Source: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0111.html (Panel 8)

"So now Jetstone releases Charlescomm from merc service, you hire Charlie, and next turn..."

There's a couple of unspoken assumptions here. Namely, that Transylvito will be ABLE to hire Charlie (seems safe, the Don looks to be a wealthy guy) and that Charlie will be WILLING to be hired (unproven, potentially dangerous assumption).

If Charlie refuses to hire on under Transylvito, he's breached no contract. It'll probably infuriate Ansom to have such a spanner thrown into the works, but from a contractual standpoint, Ansom's got no beef. He lets Charlescomm merc forces depart willingly, so the remainder of the contract term is no longer in force, at which point Charlie's not obligated to follow any order to re-enlist with Transylvito.

You never, ever, prematurely terminate a contract to secure an alteration of status without first negotiating the terms of severance and retention in advance. If you want to get them enlisted with someone else, then you negotiate their "departure" and "re-enlistment" as a contractual matter - a facet of renegotiating the existing contract. You most certainly do not abrogate the contract and assume they'll take the terms of the new one sight unseen!

Once the existing contract is no longer in force (Charlescomm is released) there's nothing to bind Charlescomm to service at all. Indeed, there's nothing to stop Charlescomm from simply not showing up at the ambush - something the Don obviously thinks would be detrimental to the continued existence of the warlords he's sending. Worse still, there's nothing to stop Charlescomm forces already at the ambush site (or those en route) from 'going hot' and turning on their supposed 'allies' by surprise.

Now, maybe this isn't where things are going, but from this side of the looking glass, we need to find a detour soon if that isn't where we're going.

[Yogi]

Emphasis mine.

Actually, Ansom is releasing the contract. It's over. Finis. Done. Complete. that's why discussions about Charlie "backing out" are meaningless. If you release them early, and they don't agree to rehire under new terms with the boss you handpick, that's not "backing out", that's a group of mercs being released from contract and finding the new employer not to their liking.

Source: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0111.html (Panel 8)

"So now Jetstone releases Charlescomm from merc service, you hire Charlie, and next turn..."

There's a couple of unspoken assumptions here. Namely, that Transylvito will be ABLE to hire Charlie (seems safe, the Don looks to be a wealthy guy) and that Charlie will be WILLING to be hired (unproven, potentially dangerous assumption).Unspoken assumptions?

Charlie and Don King have been apprised of this plan.
There's no "assumption" here. They've already worked all this out beforehand.

If Charlie refuses to hire on under Transylvito, he's breached no contract. It'll probably infuriate Ansom to have such a spanner thrown into the works, but from a contractual standpoint, Ansom's got no beef. He lets Charlescomm merc forces depart willingly, so the remainder of the contract term is no longer in force, at which point Charlie's not obligated to follow any order to re-enlist with Transylvito.As I have said before, adhering only to the letter of contracts while breaking promises and exploiting loopholes does not a good reputation make. Might be legal, but Charlie has said he's also looking for his reputation.

You never, ever, prematurely terminate a contract to secure an alteration of status without first negotiating the terms of severance and retention in advance. If you want to get them enlisted with someone else, then you negotiate their "departure" and "re-enlistment" as a contractual matter - a facet of renegotiating the existing contract. You most certainly do not abrogate the contract and assume they'll take the terms of the new one sight unseen!How fortunate that this is exactly what happened. Again, read the actual comic and you'll see it was all discussed beforehand.

[SteveMB]

There's no "assumption" here. They've already worked all this out beforehand.

Well, sorta. We've been told that Charlie was "apprised of this plan" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0103.html), but that's not necessarily the same thing as committing to it.

Given that the rules of Erfworld are based on game mechanics, it's possible that double-dealing is understood to mean going against the letter of an obligation to an ally or ruler. If so, the reaction of other Erfworlders who might hire Charlie in the future would not be "gee, Charlie is sneaky" but rather "gee, Ansom was a n00b".

[Yogi]

Well, sorta. We've been told that Charlie was "apprised of this plan" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0103.html), but that's not necessarily the same thing as committing to it.Why not? I know this forum has a massive hate-on for Ansom, but let's be fair for once and realise that Anson tends to cover all his bases the best he can, and wouldn't make the noob mistake of breaking a contract without ensuring that everything was already worked out, especialy since he's now worried about secret traitors.

Given that the rules of Erfworld are based on game mechanics, it's possible that double-dealing is understood to mean going against the letter of an obligation to an ally or ruler. If so, the reaction of other Erfworlders who might hire Charlie in the future would not be "gee, Charlie is sneaky" but rather "gee, Ansom was a n00b".So the rules of reality only apply when you want them to apply, to be replaced with hypothetical game rules you pulled out of nowhere whenever it's convinient?

[Tahnru]

What are the odds that Charlie's deal results in a simple plant for Stanley / Parson?

Parson hires the Archons. They are ordered to proceed as before, and accompany the alliance forces to find Stanley.

Once there, they turn on the Alliance forces. We've seen that dance fighting is the expected neutralizer against dwagons.

How effective will the Alliance Air Force be against Dwagon-Mounted Archons?

[Kish]

I have to (mostly) agree with Yogi here. People often seem to expect the inhabitants of Erfworld to act like automatons, but that's not how they're presented. They love, they hate, they wrestle with moral ambiguities...They're people, popped in a world where the laws of physics resemble the rules of a turn-based strategy game from our world, but as much real people as Parson is. If Charlie suddenly allies with Gobwin Knob, just like that, the other Erfworlders aren't going to say, "Well, he didn't break the letter of any agreements, so we're magically prevented from thinking he did anything wrong." They'll evaluate it the same way people in our world would evaluate a similar action.

On the other hand, Charlie is either tricking Parson or engaging in some manner of double-dealing, and I'm guessing it's double-dealing. I think it's entirely possible that Ansom's ego and contempt/loathing for Stanley are enough to make him assume incorrectly that Charlie really wants to see Stanley crushed and won't backstab Ansom.

[Zolem]

A lot of you people keep on complaining about Charlie being interprited as immoral and only interested in imprving his own profits at the expense of others.....what do you think mercs are? {Scrubbed} The world is not happy sunshine land. Heck, Ansom is just as likly to be betrayed by one of his ACTUAL allies that joined willingly as he is by Charlie while under contract. After all, if you betray who's actually paying you, you won't last long. As soon as that contract is terminated he is a free agent, as he has not actually been hired yet, just discussed a potential contract. He can decide to NOT take the contract. Ansom and co. will probably be pissed, but non-coalition forces (which there are probably a lot of) will look at Ansom and laugh at his n00b mistake. Jetstone will also probably lose face, and his Father the King will be upset with his mistake. And Charlie gets noted as a smart individual that it's worth dealing with. You have to handle with care, but that's true of any destructive resource. Future employers will be more weary, but they will still hire Charlie, they'll just be smarter about it.

[Yogi]

As soon as that contract is terminated he is a free agent, as he has not actually been hired yet, just discussed a potential contract. He can decide to NOT take the contract.Wrong. Strip 103 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0103.html) clearly states that Charlie is in on the plan. Thus if he backs out now, it would be backing out on something he has agreed upon, thus denting his reputation.

Ansom and co. will probably be pissed, but non-coalition forces (which there are probably a lot of) will look at Ansom and laugh at his n00b mistake.http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/images/smiles/icon_rolleyes.gif
You have to remember that Ansom is an accomplished warlord, obviously leveled up a much, who creates meticulous plan. If it's a n00b mistake as you say, why would Ansom make it? It.s very obvious to any rational individual that Ansom is hardly stupid or inexperienced.

[Zolem]

Wrong. Strip 103 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0103.html) clearly states that Charlie is in on the plan. Thus if he backs out now, it would be backing out on something he has agreed upon, thus denting his reputation.

It says that he's been apraised, not that he agreed. BIG difference there, especialy when dealing with marcs.



You have to remember that Ansom is an accomplished warlord, obviously leveled up a much, who creates meticulous plan. If it's a n00b mistake as you say, why would Ansom make it? It.s very obvious to any rational individual that Ansom is hardly stupid or inexperienced.

True, but because of his OCD style, things easily throw him for a loop. He figured Stanly couldn't set a trap, and fell for one. He views the seige as very streight forward and therefore doesn't consider all the posibilities (like the often mentioned 'tunnle colapse plan' theory). He therefore vies Charlie changing sides as natural and doesn't consider other posibilities. He's blinded by his own self-rightious belief in his own 'infalability'.:smallamused:

He's like a game version of Robert E. Lee, fighting an over agressive war based on plans that are easily derailed.

[Yogi]

It says that he's been apraised, not that he agreed. BIG difference there, especialy when dealing with marcs.OK, so what you're saying Ansom is

a) Smart enough to think of this turn-switching exploit.
b) Smart enough to tell Charlie about this.
c) NOT smart enough to wait five seconds for a reply.

This is a very convenient level of smart you're dealing with here.

True, but because of his OCD style, things easily throw him for a loop. He figured Stanly couldn't set a trap, and fell for one.
He views the seige as very streight forward and therefore doesn't consider all the posibilities (like the often mentioned 'tunnle colapse plan' theory).He's right, Stanly couldn't set a trap, or plan his way out of a wet paper bag, with instructions tattooed on the insides of his eyelids with glow in the dark ink. What he didn't know about was that Stanley now has Parson on his side.

He therefore vies Charlie changing sides as natural and doesn't consider other posibilities. He's blinded by his own self-rightious belief in his own 'infalability'.:smallamused:

He's like a game version of Robert E. Lee, fighting an over agressive war based on plans that are easily derailed.However, Charlie IS a known factor. This isn't him falling for Parson's plots because he's not sure how Parson's mind works. This turn switching sploit only involves Jetstone, Charlie, and Transylvito, all of which he has already contacted.

[OnDroid]

OK, so what you're saying Ansom is

a) Smart enough to think of this turn-switching exploit.
b) Smart enough to tell Charlie about this.
c) NOT smart enough to wait five seconds for a reply.[/B]



And how about simply convinced that "We could never have had Charlie as an ally. Stanlye wouldn't have it." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0047.html) so he counts on that. :smallwink:

[Yogi]

And how about simply convinced that "We could never have had Charlie as an ally. Stanlye wouldn't have it." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0047.html) so he counts on that. :smallwink:Not after Parson's "secret allies" speech.

[Freederick]

I still think that Charlie is more clever than that. He is not about to outright switch sides. Rather, he has subtly sabotaged Ansom's effort by leaking out to Parson the news about the ambush on Stanley. Thus Parson has a chance to warn Stanley away, the ambush doesn't happen, and there is no risk of injury to Charlie's assets :smallwink: taking part in the ambush.

Ansom is unlikely to learn of this, and there's full deniability to fall back on anyway. Charlie still gets paid, his archons are safe, and he has earned Parson's uncroaking gratitude. And his rep is spotless. :smallcool:

Edit: Not to mention the fact that FAQ is likely to remain vacant for the moment... and now Charlie knows all about its location and accesses, and has fast, strong units nearby to recolonize... a mountain-ringed bubble kingdom is not a prize to be dismissed lightly. :smallamused:

[PePe QuiCoSE]

Sabotaging the ambush would hurt Transylvito purpose, which is hiring Charlie. I think that the contact with Parson has more to do with Jetstone since he has no contract with them now and the conflict over GK (probably) doesn't affect the agenda he has with Transylvito (since non of them are allied to Jetstone).

[SteveMB]

Sabotaging the ambush would hurt Transylvito purpose, which is hiring Charlie. I think that the contact with Parson has more to do with Jetstone since he has no contract with them now and the conflict over GK (probably) doesn't affect the agenda he has with Transylvito (since non of them are allied to Jetstone).

Huh? I'm pretty sure that all the Coalition units were allied to Jetstone (otherwise, they wouldn't all take their turn at the same time, and the column would chew itself up whenever warlord-less stacks bumped into each other). It's just the air expedition that is switching its alliance to Transylvito (i.e. to the main body of Transylvito back in Don King's territory) to do the turn-order exploit.

[Freederick]

Sabotaging the ambush would hurt Transylvito purpose, which is hiring Charlie.

Which is about to hire Charlie--at the moment he contacts Parson, Charlie is a free agent, between hires. That means that Natural Loyalty doesn't apply, and neither does the letter of the contract.

The spirit of the contract suffers, of course, but it is unlikely that truth will out in this case. What does Charlie care about the Don? He is a merc. He cares about his pay, his good rep, and conserving his forces when feasible. The time for loyalty will come once the contract is actually signed. :smalltongue:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

The spirit of the contract suffers, of course, but it is unlikely that truth will out in this case.
Huh? What "truth" are you talking about. :smallconfused:

I think Ansom, the Don, and everyone else that has been "appraised of the plan" will kind of notice if Charlie doesn't stick to said plan.


What does Charlie care about the Don? He is a merc. He cares about his pay, his good rep, and conserving his forces when feasible.
Yeah, and reputations can stem just as easily from what you do when off contract as when on. So let's not fool ourselves that his reputation is somehow magically safe just because his contract is technically terminated.

[Zolem]

[QUOTE=Shhalahr Windrider;4656655]Huh? What "truth" are you talking about. :smallconfused:
QUOTE]

That Charlie sabotaged it. Charlies units show up as normal, Stanly doesn't show up, and they waste a turn. That's it.

[LordVader]

True, but because of his OCD style, things easily throw him for a loop. He figured Stanly couldn't set a trap, and fell for one. He views the seige as very streight forward and therefore doesn't consider all the posibilities (like the often mentioned 'tunnle colapse plan' theory). He therefore vies Charlie changing sides as natural and doesn't consider other posibilities. He's blinded by his own self-rightious belief in his own 'infalability'.:smallamused:



Zolem has a point here. While Ansom is certainly not a n00b, he does seem to overlook things because of his absolute certainty that his view is the only possible one.

[DarkNewton]

When it comes to weither or not Charlie accepted the 'plan' as Ansom has outlined, I'm sure that Ansom is working under the assumption that GK has no resources with which to compete in a bid war for Charlie's services. Further I don't doubt that during the round-table discussion that Ansom would have had with his forces, when it came to the point of Charlie's involvement Charlie himself would have assented with the provision 'As long as the price is right' which would totally free him of blame for swapping sides if the Don can't make a suitable offer. So that coupled with Ansom's knowledge of the straits he has put GK in.. I would see it perfectly reasonable Ansom would not worry about engaging Charlie in sort of non-compete type of agreement.

[Ned the undead]

Or you could check the update and see their plan.

[Zolem]

Now the question is, how manny Archeons did it take? And how much woudl that cost Jetstone? First they'd have to rehire the 14, then some, and I was under the impression that jsut those 15 cost a small fortune.

[datalaughing]

Now the question is, how manny Archeons did it take? And how much woudl that cost Jetstone? First they'd have to rehire the 14, then some, and I was under the impression that jsut those 15 cost a small fortune.

You're missing the point. If Charlie hired his archons back out to Jetstone, no one would get to use them before Parson's turn. Charlie specifically asked how many to take them before the beginning of Parson's turn. He wants to conquor GW himself, maybe to take Parson and have him start working for him. Maybe for some other reason. What I want to know is, would Jetstone and the alliance attack anyway if Charlie took GW. They'd be declaring war on Charlescom, which they probably don't want to do, but Charlie would be stepping on some toes, and it might piss a lot of people off.

[Revlid]

You're missing the point. If Charlie hired his archons back out to Jetstone, no one would get to use them before Parson's turn. Charlie specifically asked how many to take them before the beginning of Parson's turn. He wants to conquor GW himself, maybe to take Parson and have him start working for him. Maybe for some other reason. What I want to know is, would Jetstone and the alliance attack anyway if Charlie took GW. They'd be declaring war on Charlescom, which they probably don't want to do, but Charlie would be stepping on some toes, and it might piss a lot of people off.

Good point.

Although, shouldn't the abbreviation be GK, not GW?